View Full Version : QD forever ruined
KrampusArms
07-06-13, 01:26
Today I had my rifle hit the ground. QD failed. Big time. Now, I understand the whole "Tool" mindset. But hearing & seeing my rifle hit the deck & bounce, crash, & clank.....
It sucked. It was horrible.
The QD attachments manufacturer shall not be named. Yet. Im currently awaiting response from their CS. Something is defective here. Either the QD swivel or mount. I could grab the sling & yank it out by hand. Not sure what is to blame.
But one thing is clear. I will NEVER, EVER, trust QD anything ever again.
Its been tainted. I don't care whom, what, or why. This attachment device has been forever ruined for me.
I would like to make this thread, as a chance to promote & give praise to the manufacturer, in regards to their customer service. So.......
Lets proceed.
(7-5-13)
Sent manufacturer e-mail about refund or exchange on defective product.
kantstudien
07-06-13, 01:46
I had a bad cheeseburger once.
I gave up cheeseburgers ever since :p
Sounds like you should forsake the manufacturer rather than the method?
Pictures of said failure?
KrampusArms
07-06-13, 01:52
I had a bad cheeseburger once.
I gave up cheeseburgers ever since :p
Sounds like you should forsake the manufacturer rather than the method?
Pictures of said failure?
Thats a wonderful analogy. However irrational it may seem, I'm not utilising QD ever again.
The failure. What do you want a picture of? The rifle laying in the dirt?
Seriously though, nothing appears out the ordinary in regards to the parts.
kantstudien
07-06-13, 01:58
If it happened to me personally, I more than likely wouldn't use QD again either so I get where you are coming from.
But obviously something is out of spec since the result was rifle on the ground when you didn't want it there. So the swivel is out of spec, stock is out of spec, QD attachment hole is out of spec, etc.
Take a pic of the setup and close up of where the QD failed.
But that may out the MFG so it's up to you.
KrampusArms
07-06-13, 02:04
If it happened to me personally, I more than likely wouldn't use QD again either so I get where you are coming from.
But obviously something is out of spec since the result was rifle on the ground when you didn't want it there. So the swivel is out of spec, stock is out of spec, QD attachment hole is out of spec, etc.
Take a pic of the setup and close up of where the QD failed.
But that may out the MFG so it's up to you.
If I was to take a picture it would give it away. And I assure you, nothing looks out of the ordinary. I love pictures, and I would absolutely share pictures if something looked jacked up & would not reveal the identity. You guys are way to astute. But it looks normal.
It's a brand that is not as popular. But IMO they make killer stuff.
You should have listened to Mark..:D
Is anything actually messed up on your AR or just some cosmetic scratches? I understand where your coming from but the whole QD failure is a known issue and people use at their own risk. Personally my AR could use some hitting the deck, it would make it look better. If its not internally messed, which I doubt happening from a detach and fling, I would just keep on moving and chalk it up to character. There are some other ways to do have QD attachments without using the male /female socket, I am using the Paraclip attachment on my 870 to attach a VCAS and it's a pretty solid setup. You may want to look into using them and you can get rail attachments for them in case you are having a mounting issue.
KrampusArms
07-06-13, 02:50
You should have listened to Mark..:D
Is anything actually messed up on your AR or just some cosmetic scratches? I understand where your coming from but the whole QD failure is a known issue and people use at their own risk. Personally my AR could use some hitting the deck, it would make it look better. If its not internally messed, which I doubt happening from a detach and fling, I would just keep on moving and chalk it up to character. There are some other ways to do have QD attachments without using the male /female socket, I am using the Paraclip attachment on my 870 to attach a VCAS and it's a pretty solid setup. You may want to look into using them and you can get rail attachments for them in case you are having a mounting issue.
Oh, I don't mind scratches. The rifle hit receiver extension/stock first. The weakest area.
I don't think anything is messed up. I looked it over, seems fine. It just sounded UGLY. It was worse than nails on a chalkboard. The "cringe" lasted a long time, and than stayed with me throughout the evening.
Thank you for your recommendation and advice.
First off, just wanna say that sucks man. PIC of damage!! Hard to say best course of action without visual. If its metal, hand-file it. Take time to smooth dented-raised gashes, and file/fold metal inward towards hole/indention. If its got some surface scrapes (like 4-5 1in shallow gouges) light/fine spot touches, fold metal back over. Ive even gottn away with flat surface2surface contact to press, raised feature down. Not perfect, but a little touch up paint blended in might yield good results...Hell just spray paint it.
As far as QD, I'm surprised that it doesn't happen more often. Hell it looks like internal ball bearing, with mount being track race. I gather spring pressure keeps it in track.. But its still held there by a series round objects(ball bearings), held in place with multiple small moving parts. Still sucks about your boom stick.
Today I had my rifle hit the ground. QD failed. Big time. Now, I understand the whole "Tool" mindset. But hearing & seeing my rifle hit the deck & bounce, crash, & clank.....
It sucked. It was horrible.
The QD attachments manufacturer shall not be named. Yet. Im currently awaiting response from their CS. Something is defective here. Either the QD swivel or mount. I could grab the sling & yank it out by hand. Not sure what is to blame.
But one thing is clear. I will NEVER, EVER, trust QD anything ever again.
Its been tainted. I don't care whom, what, or why. This attachment device has been forever ruined for me.
I would like to make this thread, as a chance to promote & give praise to the manufacturer, in regards to their customer service. So.......
Lets proceed.
(7-5-13)
Sent manufacturer e-mail about refund or exchange on defective product.
I think you should name the manufacturer of both the swivel and the socket, otherwise what's the point?
scoutfsu99
07-06-13, 03:23
Welcome to the wonderful world of QD sling attachments. Do you know if it was the male or female part?
How long have you used it or had it?
And the weapon hitting the deck on the stock/RE shouldn't even matter.
KrampusArms
07-06-13, 03:23
I think you should name the manufacturer of both the swivel and the socket, otherwise what's the point?
For the thrill of the thread. And to keep people coming back. Also it's the way it's done. Intrigued?
Hell ya! I think the slightly chewed look gives 'er personality (moxie)...As far as tricks with hand-file,and other touch ups, growing up we managed to fix half the stuff were tore-up. Still got whoopins from the other half..
It's a brand that is not as popular. But IMO they make killer stuff.
So just to play devil's advocate, you utilized a part from a less well-known manufacture (note I didn't say less reputable which would infer low quality) and your personal opinions aside and that part failed for whatever reason. Am I reading to much into this or do you have your answer as to why right there?
Will check back later when a point to this thread reveals itself.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4
At a carbine course last week, I noted that the sewn-in QD swivel on my VCAS sling looked and felt like it engaged the Noveske socket on my NSR, but didn't. I caught the rifle before it hit the dirt. It did subsequently engage solidly after I pushed it down hard.
Some swivels fit the depth of some sockets better than others, apparently.
Guns-up.50
07-06-13, 09:01
Things break and get damaged, in some cases its a fluke and some its not. Having a qd break should not cause you to write them off altogether. I have seen m4 stocks sheer off still use them.
Just asking is it a possibility that when you dropped your rifle it landed on the button(the weakest part) causing the damage.
...hearing & seeing my rifle hit the deck & bounce, crash, & clank.....
It sucked. It was horrible...
It's not so bad.
10 pushups and all will be right with the world.
Had a DD QD attachment point (not supplied with swivel) that was out of specs and would release by turning the swivel in it. They had a batch made with this problem back in fall/winter time frame and the attachment points made it out to distribution before they caught it.
DD made it right for me. Fortunately, I discovered it before dropping a weapon, because I hate push-ups, even if they are only 10 Army push-ups.
Traveshamockery
07-06-13, 09:29
I think you should name the manufacturer of both the swivel and the socket, otherwise what's the point?
He said he's getting the manufacturer's response first. That's in keeping with the rules of the forum, which are in place to prevent knee-jerking witch hunts.
Traveshamockery
07-06-13, 09:31
At a carbine course last week, I noted that the sewn-in QD swivel on my VCAS sling looked and felt like it engaged the Noveske socket on my NSR, but didn't. I caught the rifle before it hit the dirt. It did subsequently engage solidly after I pushed it down hard.
Some swivels fit the depth of some sockets better than others, apparently.
I had this problem on an NSR QD attach point too. I found I had to insert the QD and then twist and it would click solidly into place. I suspect this has something to do with the non-rotation feature...
I am not sure you need to abandon a QD, but I personally have known only a few pros who saw a need for it.
In the military we spend quite a bit of time training troops to respect and care for their weapons. Dropping a gun is a big no-no. That said, it does happen. And in field conditions, weapons can receive all manner of appalling treatment. I can assure you, a quality AR will not be phased by simply being dropped on the deck.
QD is gizmo revenue generating trash. I'd never use it.
Many years ago I once read an article where the author said the worse sound in the world is that of your rifle bouncing off rocks. I agree. After looking at the QD method for myself I found that I could never be confident that it would hold so I never use it. I hope the company takes care of you.
Sorry for the traumatic experience OP. I had an, unloaded, rifle fall out of truck unto the dirt, Aimpoint broke its fall. But I did not care. It is my practice rifle, and of course the Aimpoint held zero.
I was not aware I am the only one here that likes his QD slings. How or when are they suppose to break? The ones I have, have seen long use, hours of me wearing the sling. Never once have they failed. I have tugged on them pretty hard when I remove the sling to make sure its engaged and they do not give.
Is it that they just wear?
I know how you feel. I had sling failure once. Thankfully there was no damage, but my muzzle went straight into some mud. Fortunately, I had enough time to check things out and didn't miss my relay.
Robb Jensen
07-06-13, 11:28
QD swivels should be push/pulled to test for complete installation. Sometimes they won't lock in all the way. Same as when reloading the rifle: push/pull so that the magazine doesn't hit the ground.
SpeedRacer
07-06-13, 11:31
Seems like the part at fault should be easy to identify, just swap a known good QD into the mount and test, or visa-versa.
There's not a manufacturer out there who has never put out a defective product. That's why we test things in a range/class environment before trusting them. I've always liked QD sling mounts, more for the swivel aspect than the ability to detach (which I've never had a reason to do). I do have reservations about the reliability though, and frequently find myself tugging on my slings to verify the mounts are still solid.
I use the QD holes, because I like the placement, but I just loop those braided wire things in there instead....come to think of it, some still have 550 loops to hook slings to.
QD is gizmo revenue generating trash. I'd never use it.
Told ya :D
Not placing fault on anyone without knowing all the details, but on my QD mount ( from a reputable three letter company) I tested mine by placing my rifle on the ground standing on it and pulling up as hard as I could a bunch of times, figured if it could stand up to that, than it'll stand up to normal usage, YMMV
Not placing fault on anyone without knowing all the details, but on my QD mount ( from a reputable three letter company) I tested mine by placing my rifle on the ground standing on it and pulling up as hard as I could a bunch of times, figured if it could stand up to that, than it'll stand up to normal usage, YMMVDamn dude, the QD held up but how did rest of rifle do??:p I always get kick out of people's spec process.. BTW you need to get the WOTG sling, Frank has similar "testing" methods.
QD swivels should be push/pulled to test for complete installation. Sometimes they won't lock in all the way. Same as when reloading the rifle: push/pull so that the magazine doesn't hit the ground.
This.
For some reason the QD with my son's Colt rail has to be tapped a little to get it to seat in the socket. I'm thinking, if one does the above, it will wear itself in. Once it seats though, there's no getting it out without pushing the button, no matter how hard you pull.
Damn dude, the QD held up but how did rest of rifle do??:p I always get kick out of people's spec process.. BTW you need to get the WOTG sling, Frank has similar "testing" methods.
BCM rifle, VTAC sling everything held up just fine, couple scratches on the rifle from being on the ground but nothing some rattle can didn't cover up.
QD swivels should be push/pulled to test for complete installation. Sometimes they won't lock in all the way. Same as when reloading the rifle: push/pull so that the magazine doesn't hit the ground.
End thread.
Really, if we can learn to do a push/pull on every mag change a pull on your sling QD after installing it can't be a deal breaker.
PSA: Rotation limited QD slings need to be checked every time they are installed.
NHbowhunter
07-07-13, 07:10
I will admit that I have a few QD mounts on some of my ARs. I like the convenience of using them and have never had one fail, although I am sure it is just a matter of time until one gives way. Some of you may say that I am not pushing my guns hard enough... :)
QD is gizmo revenue generating trash. I'd never use it.
Not to hijack the thread, but that's how I feel about "tactical" charging handles.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Littlelebowski
07-07-13, 07:12
"Traumatic experience?" (not addressed at any one guy) Really? It's not a dollhouse nor a collector's item. Good lord, guys. You ought to hear yourselves.
QD sockets in limited rotation sockets need to be turned, then pushed & pulled, because of limited rotation feature.
"Traumatic experience?" (not addressed at any one guy) Really? It's not a dollhouse nor a collector's item. Good lord, guys. You ought to hear yourselves.
This!
I had my *loaded* rifle drop and hit the deck muzzle first....right In front of LAV. It was connected by a "clasp" by a manufacturer with a name longer than 3 letters. I was more worried about LAV throat punching me for letting my rifle fall than I was about my pretty rifle.
Oh, and I also learned a few other things:
1) the attachment point failed due to user error (didn't check to make sure the clasp was completely locked in)
2) the rifle was just fine
3) never try to catch a loaded gun (luckily I didn't and just let it fall to the ground)
4) if I had been fiddling around with my gun and caused it to fall, and then tried to catch it, I'm sure I would have swiftly received that throat punch!
He said he's getting the manufacturer's response first. That's in keeping with the rules of the forum, which are in place to prevent knee-jerking witch hunts.
This is correct, and thank you for observing it.
OP, please do update the thread when you have manufacturer response and further diagnostic info.
Littlelebowski
07-07-13, 09:18
I've never had a QD socket fail me in multiple classes and training evolutions. Different brands of rails/sockets/stocks. Always BF slings.
This!
I had my *loaded* rifle drop and hit the deck muzzle first....right In front of LAV. It was connected by a "clasp" by a manufacturer with a name longer than 3 letters. I was more worried about LAV throat punching me for letting my rifle fall than I was about my pretty rifle.
Oh, and I also learned a few other things:
1) the attachment point failed due to user error (didn't check to make sure the clasp was completely locked in)
2) the rifle was just fine
3) never try to catch a loaded gun (luckily I didn't and just let it fall to the ground)
4) if I had been fiddling around with my gun and caused it to fall, and then tried to catch it, I'm sure I would have swiftly received that throat punch!
I wasn't there but I think you deserved at least a "CHOKE YOURSELF!"
:D
Is the military using QD sling mounts and are they battle proven? Or are QDs just used in non military applications? Personally I don't use them and never trusted them. I mount my sling on stock Colt M4 mounts and do not give another thought to my mounts failing and my weapon not READY TO FIGHT a single thought. Rifle falling to the ground = dead soldier. QD sling mounts...solution looking for a problem if I ever heard one...:p
Just curious, Airhasz, what type of attachment system do you use?
BufordTJustice
07-07-13, 13:37
This.
For some reason the QD with my son's Colt rail has to be tapped a little to get it to seat in the socket. I'm thinking, if one does the above, it will wear itself in. Once it seats though, there's no getting it out without pushing the button, no matter how hard you pull.
I've never had a QD socket fail me in multiple classes and training evolutions. Different brands of rails/sockets/stocks. Always BF slings.
Same here with BF slings and LMT/DD QD big-button swivels. Twist, pull, and yank after insertion....then you KNOW it's in there.
Yeah, yeah "that's what she said...".
It's true.
I didn't read the thread, so you might have it answered/figured out already, and/or my post might be completely irrelevant to your issue.
Not all QD male and female parts are universally interchangeable. There are some manufacturers who's tolerances vary just enough to cause a QD swivel to NOT lock into another manufacturer's socket. But you can see it (the push button not resetting all the way out, and staying slightly depressed after insertion) and hear it not click in.
The issue seems to be the distance from the swivel's shoulder to the ball bearing center. Some are closer to the shoulder than others and don't give enough clearance to lock into place. So it's less likely that the attachment failed, but instead a design issue (flaw, if you want to call it that, but I think it's more about the lack of interchangeability between certain manufacturers).
Having experienced those previously, I haven't had an issue with QD in years because I physically check compatibility ahead of time; don't write off QD entirely!
I have been waiting to read a post like this for a long time, so thanks to the op for posting. MS3 with para clips coming my way!
I have several of these type attachments, on rifles other than ARs as well. Any time I attach one, there is mandatory PUSH, PULL, JERK, TWIST, and then PULL REALLY HARD. I've had no failures. At this point, the only reason I wouldn't use a QD swivel would be for simplicity or miniscule weight savings.
As with anything man-made, failure is eventually going to happen.
Since I am very curious about this, I am going to start a poll asking how many people have had a QD sling attachment fail during use. Also, not just "I did not check if it was secure, it was not, and the gun fell," type "failure."
I want to hear about actual design failure,where it would no longer lock into place, or just broke.
Please tell me if there is already a poll or thread about it. I am being rushed out the door so I cannot search thoroughly.
The other thing to keep in mind is that all mounts are not crested equally. You're inserting steel QD attachments into aluminum mounts typically and steel wears out aluminum eventually. Some mounts by design don't have an issue while others easily wear out.
One of coolest set ups I have seen is the handguard made by Barnes Precision which uses hardened steel QD mounts which are replaceable. This differs from everyone else which allow attachment direct to the aluminum handguard which eventually wears out.
I use QD mounts front and rear and have had no issues. Always make sure its firmly seated and there should be no issues with quality gear.
Just curious, Airhasz, what type of attachment system do you use?
I mentioned it in post.
Look out we have a badass....;) http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q629/blak1508/d120471dc0cd94c521c9ec0b152aab47_zps50b85330.jpg
Haha my fault on the immaturity but it felt right.
OP I am glad you have learned from your experience, we all hear about this happening but I guess unless it happens to us we won't care, better that it happened now and not when you were depending on it with your life. Sobering reality. The AR hitting the deck I am good with but not when I need it.
better that it happened now and not when you were depending on it with your life. Sobering reality. The AR hitting the deck I am good with but not when I need it.
When you "need" it, you should probly have it in your hands/shoulder and not slung :p
Just sayin...
I wasn't there but I think you deserved at least a "CHOKE YOURSELF!"
:D
Ha! Yeah nothing like being THAT GUY! :D
When you "need" it, you should probly have it in your hands/shoulder and not slung :p
Just sayin...
Touché...but needing to fire and needing to have it could both be used in a life depending situation, they still fall under when you need it or better when you need it not fail.
I mentioned it in post.
Nothing a search can find.
Nothing a search can find.
Here is a link...post# 42
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1690906#post1690906
"Traumatic experience?" (not addressed at any one guy) Really? It's not a dollhouse nor a collector's item. Good lord, guys. You ought to hear yourselves.
But the cerakote might get scratched. :suicide2:
Here is a link...post# 42
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1690906#post1690906 Got it. So you just thread it through the sling mount on the FSB and through the slots in the stock?
Got it. So you just thread it through the sling mount on the FSB and through the slots in the stock?
Yes sir, I know it is not what many prefer but some things I keep simple.
A few years ago here in rural New Mexico, saw a nearby rancher with a Colt Government Carbine. His sling was two long bungee cords put together, probably got them at Wal-Mart. One end attached to the factory sling loop, the other end to the buttstock. Seemed to work Ok for him.
I guess I've been lucky. With the five AR carbines I have utilizing a rail system, never had a QD failure. Maybe I'm just not running them that hard?
A few years ago here in rural New Mexico, saw a nearby rancher with a Colt Government Carbine. His sling was two long bungee cords put together, probably got them at Wal-Mart. One end attached to the factory sling loop, the other end to the buttstock. Seemed to work Ok for him.
I guess I've been lucky. With the five AR carbines I have utilizing a rail system, never had a QD failure. Maybe I'm just not running them that hard?
Never under estimate the usefulness of the bungee...lol
Thank you for your service sir!
justin_247
07-08-13, 11:53
QD is gizmo revenue generating trash. I'd never use it.
I tend to agree. The only reason I use them is because I like being able to quickly remove my sling from my rifle. I would never use them in the military.
QD swivels should be push/pulled to test for complete installation. Sometimes they won't lock in all the way. Same as when reloading the rifle: push/pull so that the magazine doesn't hit the ground.
This is my method, as well.
KrampusArms
07-08-13, 19:29
*UPDATE*
7-8-13
The manufacturer contacted me. Positive experience. The CS is very good thus far, and I got the parts shipped out to be inspected.
It is a QD endplate, much like the Noveske model. Speaking with CS, there is an issue that I hadnt been aware of. The "pocket" that is in the back of the receiver, might not have enough depth for the actual swivel. You see, the manufacturer builds and designs all their parts according to Colt specs. Being my lower is an off brand, he believes that "pocket" may not be deep enough to fully seat the swivel head, & therefore, it pops out.
Now, I had a look before I sent it out & it does seat fully. I mentioned this, & the fact that the edge or lip on the endplate that engages the ball bearings, looks like an inadequate amount of surface to hold onto. (I looked closer at it last night & this was my conclusion)
The man I spoke with agreed that I had better send it in for inspection. He was very concerned, and it came across to me that he cared, and was just as curious as to the issue. He was very polite & genuinely wanted to resolve the problem.
When I inquired about exchanging the QD endplate & swivel for a different product, he assured me that they could work something out for me, they just want to inspect the parts first & foremost.
I'm fairly confident I'm going to get taken care of. These guys seemed top notch. I'll update as soon as I receive further information.
The only reason I use them is because I like being able to quickly remove my sling from my rifle. I would never use them in the military.
The problem is almost certainly that the QD was not installed fully and locked, not an actual failure. It looks the OP did clarify that point.
You are correct that the usefulness of a QD sling is mostly administrative, like it's easier to shoot off the bench or put your carbine into a soft case without the the sling. So you are not limiting yourself functionally like the anti RDS types if you feel better with a different sling mounting system.
The military part I have to take you up on. I've seen numerous weapons hit the ground in the military, none with a QD. HK hooks are the worst, twist it the wrong way and... Next is the simple slide buckle. They tend to slip depending on the texture of the sling material, so we see things like the sewn in QD on the Vickers and two slide buckles on the VTAC.
KrampusArms
07-08-13, 19:54
Ok gentleman, here is a photo I took before sending it out. It was extremely hard to capture with an iPhone type camera, but have a look. 17338
The "lip" is extremely thin, and in certain spots its galled, or peened. I'm not sure how much you guys may glean from a crappy pic like this, but let me know what you think.
at one point, I decided to test all of the QD swivels that I own on a whim. this was a very good move because i found 4 or 5 that were utter garbage, and simple popped out when pulled... one with very little force.
from that point on, I always verify all QD swivels with all of my mounts first. as of not, I use the following brands together without issue:
swivels- BFG, VLTOR, Daniel defense, VTAC
socket- Magpul, Daniel Defense, VLTOR, LMT, Grovtec, IWC, AGP, Midwest Industries
That is a terrible thing that happened to your rifle, but don't discount QD altogether. with the right products, and safety checking periodically, you can do it right.
I don't think I could ever be a fan of a system consisting of 4 small ball bearings located in a small groove holding 7 to 9 pounds. The surface for lockup is lacking as only a small portion of the bearing's sphere is in contact with the groove. It's okay for your keychains, but not holding your rifle (in my opinion). There are much better ways to secure your sling. Of course I'm old school and adverse to new fangled things. YMMV
The military part I have to take you up on. I've seen numerous weapons hit the ground in the military, none with a QD. HK hooks are the worst, twist it the wrong way and... Next is the simple slide buckle. They tend to slip depending on the texture of the sling material, so we see things like the sewn in QD on the Vickers and two slide buckles on the VTAC.
The only sling failure I have had is the sling coming out of the slide. It was in my first RB1 carbine class. Muz showed me how to run the tag end back through the buckle again and it's never been an issue again.
Seriously people...its not new technology. It works.. its like a condom, works 99.5% of the time. Get over it
QDs are cool but seem too finicky and unnecessary to me. Of course, this is subjective and a matter of personal preference. I tried one for about a minute and went back to a hasp (some big, chunky generic deal I use with my frankensteined padded VTAC). That and a SLAP Plate works for me so far (yeah, yeah I know but I like it because it works for me). BUT, it's all relative so rock em if you like em.
I'm just running my VCAS through the stock and FSB sling mounts. Quiet and strong.
justin_247
07-09-13, 12:11
The military part I have to take you up on. I've seen numerous weapons hit the ground in the military, none with a QD. HK hooks are the worst, twist it the wrong way and... Next is the simple slide buckle. They tend to slip depending on the texture of the sling material, so we see things like the sewn in QD on the Vickers and two slide buckles on the VTAC.
I don't like HK hooks, either.
And yes, just like with QDs, slide buckles can be a problem if improperly installed.
The design of the QD stud doesn't allow for much material on the female side to retain those ball bearings.
Just a 1mm / .039in lip basically.
Would it really have killed them to do it with a 2mm dimension :suicide2:
Generally, in use, you do not pull straight out on the QD. The ball bearings themselves, while able to hold up to a straight pull, are not subject to it very often.
There is no damage evident to make me believe the QD ball bearings pulled through in that picture. As someone who has done destructive testing I would also expect to see the sling loop pulled out of the QD body before the balls pulled through the mount.
The QD is actually pretty simple mechanically, the balls can't retract unless the button is pushed. Or the button never fully locked out, which is what I believe happened. This could be a problem with the mount, QD, or operator error.
I have subjected QD's to some hefty loads with the intent of creating a pull out and have been unable to make it happen with reasonable loads. I would also suspect it was not properly seated.
KrampusArms
07-09-13, 23:40
Indeed gentleman. It is possible that it is operator error on my part. However, I seated the thing several times. I'm confident it was a failure.
If I am wrong I will tell you. And apologies will be owed. Awaiting manufacturer response & resolution. I will let you guys know.
This thread has turned into a great discussion of the QD device, and there is a polarization between our opinions. As always.
I would like to ask for a photo of someones Noveske endplate if you could oblige. Specifically the lip/groove/or track the bearings run in if possible. A well worn example preferably.
Indeed gentleman. It is possible that it is operator error on my part. However, I seated the thing several times. I'm confident it was a failure.
If I am wrong I will tell you. And apologies will be owed. Awaiting manufacturer response & resolution. I will let you guys know.
This thread has turned into a great discussion of the QD device, and there is a polarization between our opinions. As always.
I would like to ask for a photo of someones Noveske endplate if you could oblige. Specifically the lip/groove/or track the bearings run in if possible. A well worn example preferably.
Perusing through the thread I didn't see it but were you able to replicate the failure?
Here is a picture of the Noveske. Never had any issues with it pulling out.
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/ad701xx/P1010009.jpg
Ok gentleman, here is a photo I took before sending it out. It was extremely hard to capture with an iPhone type camera, but have a look. 17338
The "lip" is extremely thin, and in certain spots its galled, or peened. I'm not sure how much you guys may glean from a crappy pic like this, but let me know what you think.
Is yours aluminum?
KrampusArms
07-10-13, 02:07
Perusing through the thread I didn't see it but were you able to replicate the failure?
I did not try to replicate it once I removed the endplate no. But after my rifle fell I continually was able to yank it out by hand.
Is yours aluminum?
No it was steel. "ordnance grade" Supposedly. Thank you for the photo. That Noveske looks considerably more heavy duty.
I would also look into the male end on the swivel. It could be possible you have a large socket and a smaller swivel and that caused it. I do know on the Noveske plate with swivels from BFG and others that it is a snug fit and a push-pull is needed to make sure it fits. 40# hanging off the sling was a non-issue for me.
Jim Dunlop uses a similar concept for their strap locks for musical instruments and there have never been pull out issues from anyone I know to use them. There are crappy copies of this system out there and those do fail in a similar manner.
The devil is in the details.
Indeed gentleman. It is possible that it is operator error on my part. However, I seated the thing several times. I'm confident it was a failure.
Are you sure the button was coming out all the way? If the mount or QD is out of spec the button may not come out all the way, if it's close it might feel like it's locked in but actually can be pulled out.
KrampusArms
07-11-13, 01:49
Are you sure the button was coming out all the way? If the mount or QD is out of spec the button may not come out all the way, if it's close it might feel like it's locked in but actually can be pulled out.
I'm afraid to say no. I'm not absolutely certain. I seated it fully, & gave it a tug, and it held. I payed no attention to the button. It popped out when force was applied.
It actually held the weight of the rifle if it was static.
Now, I could be owing apologies soon. You guys are making me doubt what I saw and experienced. We'll know soon enough.
If the gear you're using leaves a lingering question in the back of your mind...Stop using it. Find a better alternative.
While I agree with using the stock sling swivel on a Non Free floated AR , a QD swivel attached to a Floated rail is the best way to go. Sure you can run a BFG sling loop threaded thru a vent hole in the rail but the weak point becomes the rail anyway. These days most of my rifles are free floated and utilize a front Vltor QD swivel.
I hope it's okay to post this. I looked in the rules and didn't see anything about linking to other sites. At any rate, those with the Rogers Super Stoc need to be aware of this problem and this is a good thread to introduce the problem.
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-long-guns/65590-attention-colt-ar-owners-equiped-roger-superstocks-i-had-failure.html
KrampusArms
07-24-13, 18:45
*UPDATE* 7-24-13
Gentleman. I have received contact from the manufacturer. The reveal: GG&G. They have made it right. Turns out the issue was my lower. That pocket was not deep enough to fully engage the swivel. They did a test, & could not get it to fail.
The fault was not theirs. It was mine. Nothing wrong with the parts.
Despite this, they are still helping me out & exchanging a different endplate for me. They offered me a different one that excepts HK hooks, only asking I pay $5 shipping. Outstanding.
So. No fault on GG&G. I am still not going to use QD though.
*UPDATE* 7-24-13
Gentleman. I have received contact from the manufacturer. The reveal: GG&G. They have made it right. Turns out the issue was my lower. That pocket was not deep enough to fully engage the swivel. They did a test, & could not get it to fail.
The fault was not theirs. It was mine. Nothing wrong with the parts.
Despite this, they are still helping me out & exchanging a different endplate for me. They offered me a different one that excepts HK hooks, only asking I pay $5 shipping. Outstanding.
So. No fault on GG&G. I am still not going to use QD though.
Good to see you found the solution to your problem. Like you, I don't think I will be using the QDs.
this time on the Roger's Super Stoc. I posted this in another thread, but thought I would put it here so those with the Super Stoc would take notice:
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-long-guns/65590-attention-colt-ar-owners-equiped-roger-superstocks-i-had-failure.html
I cant see your pics in the other forum but from your write up, the QD cup itself held and the mold-point on the stock is what actually failed.
I cant see your pics in the other forum but from your write up it looks like the QD cup itself held but the mold-point on the stock failed?
Sorry about that Col_Crocs. The pic and post are not mine. I just saw this on that particular forum and put a link to the story. Yes, you are correct. The metal (female ferrule?) part came out of the polymer Roger's Super Stoc. He pushed it back in, but it would not hold. I think Colt is taking care of him.
I'm more stunned that Colt has a forum. :D
Sorry about that Col_Crocs. The pic and post are not mine. I just saw this on that particular forum and put a link to the story. Yes, you are correct. The metal (female ferrule?) part came out of the polymer Roger's Super Stoc. He pushed it back in, but it would not hold. I think Colt is taking care of him.
No worries. The post explains it pretty well anyway. This is a stock issue though, not the QD failing to hold the sling.
I'm more stunned that Colt has a forum. :D
LOL...its actually a decent resource for things like Pythons and Anacondas....
Things fail for a variety of reasons. Whether mechanical, user induced, or mysterious acts of God (AKA user induced :D). I've had an old M1 Garand sling that was rotted just on the under side and looked fine on the outside. While using it to support myself for a shot, it tore and I almost dropped the rifle. A sling, or anything else for that matter, can and will fail under the right circumstances. The important thing is simply to choose the least error prone method, check that everything is set up right and securely, and roll with it. While intermediary sling connection devices like H&K hooks, MASH hooks, or QD cups may be more error prone due to being an additional part, I think the important thing is checking and double checking your equipment beforehand for compatibility, fit, and function and considering whether or not you overlooked something before entirely dismissing something.
I googled the HK hook to see what it is like. I think it is the same as the attachment for a Cetme sling. I can see how it could come loose if in a bind. Your'e right about checking equipment before and maybe during use.
Boba Fett v2
07-27-13, 05:11
Running a Magpul STR and MS3 QD sling set-up. I have the QD end of the sling plugged into the socket on the buttstock while the paraclip end is clipped to the fore mounted Magpul RSA. Everything is secured. Haven't had a single failure or any doubts. And if by chance it does fail I'd like to think my carbine is durable enough to handle a drop. That's why we spend big money on combat grade weaponry right? I've seen my fair share of M4s take some serious abuse in combat, and they keep going. Same piece of mind I'd like to have in my private arsenal. Shit happens.
Were you hanging out of a helicopter (in the air) when the sling failed and the rifle hit the deck or were you just standing and the rifle fell maybe a total of 36"?
Just from the way you described the sound I imagine it must've fallen from an incredible height.
Were you hanging out of a helicopter (in the air) when the sling failed and the rifle hit the deck or were you just standing and the rifle fell maybe a total of 36"?
Just from the way you described the sound I imagine it must've fallen from an incredible height.
He's being a baby. I used to have a sweet picture on my phone of my SR-15 caked in mud. That's why you bought it, wasn't it? To use?
I googled the HK hook to see what it is like. I think it is the same as the attachment for a Cetme sling. I can see how it could come loose if in a bind. Your'e right about checking equipment before and maybe during use.
My read is that most of the HK hook reports are not about HK hooks at all, they are copies with widely varying quality.
When I was young and poor (and in better shape) I hunted with a 91A3 with factory sling. Not just occasionally, but anytime I could.... "Still" hunting 10-15 days a year in the mountains (no stands). I never once had it unhook. My main complaint was that it was noisy at times.
I use QDs now that my hk days are over, but if they were not an option would seek out hooks from some old g3 slings
---sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
Oh, I don't mind scratches. The rifle hit receiver extension/stock first. The weakest area.
I don't think anything is messed up. I looked it over, seems fine. It just sounded UGLY. It was worse than nails on a chalkboard. The "cringe" lasted a long time, and than stayed with me throughout the evening.
Good grief, you make it sound like your first born just faceplanted in a cactus bed or something. These guns handle the rigors of war, being beaten on, smashed into things, and being used as tools, all of which they have proven to handle.
Guess this is the reason I just look at the AR as a tool, and not something to accessorize and make look pretty.
FYI there are much more secure ways to sling up a gun without a QD attachment.
5 pages of reading and for some reason all I've got from this thread was omg qd questionable.... then it turns out it wasn't even the qd's fault.
KrampusArms
07-30-13, 03:11
Good grief, you make it sound like your first born just faceplanted in a cactus bed or something. These guns handle the rigors of war, being beaten on, smashed into things, and being used as tools, all of which they have proven to handle.
Guess this is the reason I just look at the AR as a tool, and not something to accessorize and make look pretty.
FYI there are much more secure ways to sling up a gun without a QD attachment.
5 pages of reading and for some reason all I've got from this thread was omg qd questionable.... then it turns out it wasn't even the qd's fault.
Perhaps I'm being a baby, yes I agree. The only thing I can give everybody is this:
I spent a lot of money on my rifle, and it was not a comforting sight to see it hit the ground. And yes, it fell a grand total of maybe 4 feet and then bounced. Not from a helicopter. I understand I was a bit too animated about my feelings towards a nearly 2000 dollar piece of equipment crashing on the ground.
I ****ing skrimped and saved for the damn weapon. Much time, effort, research, and saving went into it. However, I dont mind your comments, or anyone elses. I appreciate it sincerely. Im in need of additional perspective. I mean that honestly.
And yes, it wasnt the QD devices fault. It was mine. I admitted it publicly. I made a big ass stink over my own damn mis information.
And, the manufacturer GG&G made it right. They could have said screw off, not our fault, but they didnt. Which concludes this thread unless people have further discussion or commentary.
Update 7-29-13
Recieved my exchange which GG&G got to me today. I like this better so far. Thank you GG&G!
17612
sinlessorrow
07-30-13, 08:14
Perhaps I'm being a baby, yes I agree. The only thing I can give everybody is this:
I spent a lot of money on my rifle, and it was not a comforting sight to see it hit the ground. And yes, it fell a grand total of maybe 4 feet and then bounced. Not from a helicopter. I understand I was a bit too animated about my feelings towards a nearly 2000 dollar piece of equipment crashing on the ground.
I ****ing skrimped and saved for the damn weapon. Much time, effort, research, and saving went into it. However, I dont mind your comments, or anyone elses. I appreciate it sincerely. Im in need of additional perspective. I mean that honestly.
And yes, it wasnt the QD devices fault. It was mine. I admitted it publicly. I made a big ass stink over my own damn mis information.
And, the manufacturer GG&G made it right. They could have said screw off, not our fault, but they didnt. Which concludes this thread unless people have further discussion or commentary.
Update 7-29-13
Recieved my exchange which GG&G got to me today. I like this better so far. Thank you GG&G!
17612
Safety is off, if the bolt is not locked back......
That said who cares if it fell? Im glad GGG took care of you their CS is great!
You should toss it down the driveway to make yourself feel better :P
At a carbine course last week, I noted that the sewn-in QD swivel on my VCAS sling looked and felt like it engaged the Noveske socket on my NSR, but didn't. I caught the rifle before it hit the dirt. It did subsequently engage solidly after I pushed it down hard.
Some swivels fit the depth of some sockets better than others, apparently.
This. Generally when or if a QD connector fails, it is because of operator error.
For the record, not all QD swivels are the same quality. For me, I only use BFG and Colt's QD's.
I have probably logged more training hours with QD's on a sling than most people (BFG Vickers sling with QD's sewn in) and have YET to have a failure OR witness a failure of a BFG QD swivel.
Like all things, buy quality and properly install the item.
C4
STONE-YARDER
07-30-13, 10:34
The QD's need a little wipe down and lube now and then. Those ball bearings will eventually dry up and lock up if not maintained.
17612
I can see how that would have failed, I am astonished you will continue to use it.
I have never had a QD let go on me. That said I use quality parts and intelligent designs. Most of my QD have to be wiggled out to remove them.
Get a Noveske end plate with the QD socket.
sinlessorrow
07-30-13, 13:46
I can see how that would have failed, I am astonished you will continue to use it.
I have never had a QD let go on me. That said I use quality parts and intelligent designs. Most of my QD have to be wiggled out to remove them.
Get a Noveske end plate with the QD socket.
Thats no a QD end plate. That is ggg's multi one, for HK clips and standard sling mounting through it.
Sorry reading comprehension fail. Makes more sense as you describe it, seemed a terrible Idea as a QD socket, looking closer now I can see why it wouldn't even work for a QD.
My bad
KrampusArms
07-30-13, 15:03
Sorry reading comprehension fail. Makes more sense as you describe it, seemed a terrible Idea as a QD socket, looking closer now I can see why it wouldn't even work for a QD.
My bad
Yes, GG&G exchanged it for a completely different endplate. All they wanted was the 5 dollar shipping. Considering there was nothing wrong with the QD endplate I purchased, they were awesome about it.
Talking with their customer service representative, I could tell they are top notch guys. Very very good CS.
Unrelated, but God help you if you ever have a problem with a sony product. They have the WORST CS I have ever experienced. Prepare to sacrifice a virgin on an altar, if you want them to help you.
KrampusArms
07-30-13, 15:14
Thats no a QD end plate. That is ggg's multi one, for HK clips and standard sling mounting through it.
Which reminds me. Any of you guys have reccomendations on what I should do with this new endplate?
A fabric sewn Fastex fastener? HK hook? Mash hook?
If you were using this endplate, what attachments would you use?
Which reminds me. Any of you guys have reccomendations on what I should do with this new endplate?
A fabric sewn Fastex fastener? HK hook? Mash hook?
If you were using this endplate, what attachments would you use?
Mash hooks are king. Avoid HK hooks.
I also wouldn't use that end plate (knuckle buster).
C4
KrampusArms
07-30-13, 16:52
Mash hooks are king. Avoid HK hooks.
I also wouldn't use that end plate (knuckle buster).
C4
If you wouldn't mind elaborating to quench the thirst of curiousity?
GG&G
I've got some good service from them, EOTec cover and "agency" useable sling plate. Direct support took it of and wired to FSB with note "un-authorised with a smiley face
Mall_Ninja
08-01-13, 15:53
The QD design is decades (at least) old. Its not just for QD sling mounts. Pneumatic and hydraulic fittings use the same basics of design and they hold back hundreds if not thousands (in certain applications) of PSI.
Think about how heavy a Mac or Snap-On impact gun is. You wont find a single person in any tire place or garage who sets their gun on the ground without lowering it down by letting the air hose slide through their hand. By doing so you are letting the guns weight and all the PSI air pressure in the line to load the QD fitting. Further many of these fittings are simply brass and much much softer than a steel QD sling mount.
I'd bet most slings straps would tear apart before any part of the steel QD would fail...
I like QD because putting dozens of rifles in a safe that all have slings is not only a bitch, its a lot of money in slings! I use mostly 3 points but also single points. Its nice to leave the sling on and change out whatever rifle im shooting. I put QD in similar locations on all my rifles (cept for the Barrett) so no sling adjustment is needed. Its the equivalent of having one pistol holster that fits all the different handguns you own, wouldnt that be something! lol
The QD design is decades (at least) old. Its not just for QD sling mounts. Pneumatic and hydraulic fittings use the same basics of design and they hold back hundreds if not thousands (in certain applications) of PSI.
Think about how heavy a Mac or Snap-On impact gun is. You wont find a single person in any tire place or garage who sets their gun on the ground without lowering it down by letting the air hose slide through their hand. By doing so you are letting the guns weight and all the PSI air pressure in the line to load the QD fitting. Further many of these fittings are simply brass and much much softer than a steel QD sling mount.
I'd bet most slings straps would tear apart before any part of the steel QD would fail...
I like QD because putting dozens of rifles in a safe that all have slings is not only a bitch, its a lot of money in slings! I use mostly 3 points but also single points. Its nice to leave the sling on and change out whatever rifle im shooting. I put QD in similar locations on all my rifles (cept for the Barrett) so no sling adjustment is needed. Its the equivalent of having one pistol holster that fits all the different handguns you own, wouldnt that be something! lol
Likewise. My air gun was dropped almost to the ground, held by the hose, and then eased to the floor, all day every day for 6 years. Never failed.
I also use the same principle with my slings. Allows me to try new things or old things once again and the versatility doesn't cost much more. All of my guns can use all of my slings, save for NRA HP stuff.
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