View Full Version : Critical Failure - Seeking Advice
I experienced a critical failure in one of my carbines this week, and am seeking some advice or thoughts from the folks here.
Because I know folks will ask, rifle specs are below:
- PSA Stripped Lower Receiver
- PSA LPK
- Battle Arms Development Ambi Safety Selector (BADASS)
- Geissele SD3G Trigger
- RRA Winer Aluminum Trigger Guard
- ACE Entry Length Buttstock
- H2 Heavy Buffer
- Wolf Extra Power Buffer Spring
- BCM Gunfighter Grip Mod 0
- BCM Upper Receiver
- BCM Gunfighter Ambi Charging Handle Mod 4
- Rubber City Armory (RCA) BCG
- Troy Industries Battlesight Rear Flip Up
- Troy Industries Battlesight Front HK Style Flip Up
- Mossberg OEM 16" M4 Profile 1x7 Melonite Barrel
- Spikes Tactical Dynacomp Extreme
- Centurion CMR 12" Rail
- Parallax Tactical Lightweight Low Profile Gas Block
- YHM Black Carbine Gas Tube
- Insight WML Haley Strategic Partners Edition in HSP Thorntail Mount
- Aimpoint T1 4MOA In Larue Mount
I ran it on Memorial Day weekend as a new carbine build, with 150 rounds with zero issues. This week, I installed a Centurion CMR rail and Parallax gas block. I took it out for a 4th/July shoot expecting similar results.
I experienced a seriously critical failure 7 rounds into the session. I fired 4 rounds from one magazine (was confirming zero changes on the Aimpoint sight) without issue. I loaded 4 rounds in a second magazine. 2 fired without issue or consequence. The third round, detonated before the bolt carrier was fully seated and the bolt fully rotated back in place The bolt itself was fully engaged in the lugs of the barrel, however, as I said, it detonated prior to full BCG seating.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0846_zps7abe522a.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0846_zps7abe522a.jpg.html)
This was a RH rifle, and I am a LH shooter. I received a great deal of smoke and/or gas back into my face. Thankfully, I am none the worse for wear.
The BCG remained stuck in an unclosed position. The case was stuck in the chamber. I was able to remove it by force via a dowel in the barrel and a rubber mallet.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0855_zps3c3c53bc.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0855_zps3c3c53bc.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0856_zpsda4157ef.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0856_zpsda4157ef.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0857_zps99f4ab26.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0857_zps99f4ab26.jpg.html)
Upon cleaning and oiling for an experiment only (with proper safety equipment), the rifle and BCG chambered a round perfectly, fired, and he BCG returned to strip the next round in the magazine, however it was trying to chamber it on top of the fired case that never extracted in the first shot.
After again removing the BCG from the gun, I can easily notice that the extractor appears to be toasted. There are visible and physical cut/wear marks on the external side of it, and the tension is almost completely gone.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0847_zpsadb9f94c.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0847_zpsadb9f94c.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0852_zps5392caa6.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0852_zps5392caa6.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0853_zps5d889b08.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0853_zps5d889b08.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0854_zps1763e5aa.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0854_zps1763e5aa.jpg.html)
At this point, I'm unsure of what exactly caused this issue. I have shot this barrel/BCG before without issues. I have used this ammo before (PPU XM855) with great results. I have used the Lancer AWM L5 20rd mags before without issues.
Here is a shot comparing the bolt to a Spikes bolt to show the difference in extractors:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0859_zps651b6db4.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0859_zps651b6db4.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0858_zps04cb135e.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0858_zps04cb135e.jpg.html)
After returning home for a full cleaning, the rifle would chamber a dummy round, and then also extract it (different that the experience at the range).
At this point - I have sent an email with pictures to the BCG company. Given a holiday weekend, I haven't received (or expected) a response yet. I will follow up with a phone call Monday. With the warranty included on the BCG, I expect they will likely want to replace the entire unit.
I have a BCM extractor/spring/o-ring/insert inbound as well as a backup.
I did not check headspace when the rifle was built. As I mentioned, it fired 150 rounds in it's first outing with zero issues. I have since ordered headspace gauges as a safeguard and will check it when they arrive.
Please help me troubleshoot or understand what the issue could be here. Is it as simple as the extractor? Should replacing the extractor and guts and/or the entire BCG fix this? Or could there be more involved?
Thanks.
The third round, detonated before the bolt carrier was fully seated and the bolt fully rotated back in place The bolt itself was fully engaged in the lugs of the barrel, however, as I said, it detonated prior to full BCG seating.
As long as the bolt is locked, the relative position of the carrier is irrelevant. This is an ammo related incident. It's clear from the pictures that case failed. What ammunition were you using?
As long as the bolt is locked, the relative position of the carrier is irrelevant. This is an ammo related incident. It's clear from the pictures that case failed. What ammunition were you using?
Prvi Partizan 62gr XM855.
Prvi Partizan 62gr XM855.
Unfortunately, mil-surp ammo is going to limit, if not preclude, your ability to get someone to share repair costs with you. This is nothing more than the fickle finger of fate wagging in your face. The fact that your are able to chamber and extract a dummy round is irrelevant. I wouldn't fire that weapon again until the barrel extension and bolt assembly have been inspected by their respective manufacturers or a very qualified armorer who is willing to stand behind their work. Considering the cost of time and money you are going to spend trying to resolve the issue, you may be wise to just replace, at a minimum, the barrel and bolt assembly and get back in the game.
Agree it looks like an ammo failure.
What year was the Prvi made?
Do you know if you had any kind of barrel obstruction that would cause a pressure spike?
Do you know if you had any kind of barrel obstruction that would cause a pressure spike?
He indicated weapon had been fired subsequent to the incident...
Upon cleaning and oiling for an experiment only (with proper safety equipment), the rifle and BCG chambered a round perfectly, fired, and (t)he BCG returned to strip the next round in the magazine, however it was trying to chamber it on top of the fired case that never extracted in the first shot.
Agree it looks like an ammo failure.
What year was the Prvi made?
Do you know if you had any kind of barrel obstruction that would cause a pressure spike?
It was stamped 2012.
Rubber City Armory is going to replace the whole BCG - no questions asked and free of charge.
They expressed a similar concern that ammo may be to blame in this situation, but acknowledged in any case the extractor is now bent.
Good on these guys (and a local Ohio company!).
I will quarantine my PPU ammo and case gauge it all, as well as weigh it on my reloading scale for potential overcharges. Is this a good containment plan??
Thank you OP for posting this...and good on Rubber City Armory.
I did not check headspace when the rifle was built.
No matter whose components you used this is a critical (and very dangerous) error.
Excessive headspace would mean the case was not fully supported. The case was then liable to rupture at its weakest point (the case wall/case head juncture), and the high pressure gases escaped following the pathway of least resistance (the unsupported extractor channel on the bolt face, which probably bent your extractor).
You have survived your jackass moment. Please try not to kill yourself.
http://i35.tinypic.com/2lvzegw.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/sectionedcasehead.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/FCCCA279A35531A/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/297776127F09BE8/standard.jpg
@awpk03s
Where did you stumble upon that Mossberg barrel? I didn't realize they were selling parts...
@awpk03s
Where did you stumble upon that Mossberg barrel? I didn't realize they were selling parts...
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XATIB556M4&name=Mossberg+OEM+16%22+.223%2f5.56+AR+Barrel&groupid=573
Picked it up a couple months ago.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XATIB556M4&name=Mossberg+OEM+16%22+.223%2f5.56+AR+Barrel&groupid=573
Picked it up a couple months ago.
Aim's tagline is problematic for me... 15 Years of Surplus. You?
I'd still suggest performing a thorough visual inspection on the barrel extension and have someone check run out on it in several locations.
Properly verifying headspace isn't as easy as owning a gage. Barrel manufacturers should use a master bolt, a gage itself, with the headspace gage to verify chamber dimensions. Use of an off-the-shelf bolt to check headspace will only tell you there is a dimensional issue. The question now is whether it's the bolt or barrel assembly. With no way to eliminate the bolt, the tendancy is to assumes it's the barrel assembly.
Sinister - Is there any chance that an unsupported cartridge could just as likely be the result of an excessive dimension (circumference) at the rear of the chamber and have no effect headspace?
Is this a headspace issue or an out of battery condition?
If it were excessive chamfering at the base of the chamber or out-of-battery you'd see the case expanded around the entire circumference.
To check headpsace there are three gages: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD.
GO is obvious. NO-GO is at the maximum limit of safe (if the bolt both locks and closes) headspace.
If a bolt locks and closes on a FIELD gage the weapon is UNSAFE TO USE OR FIRE.
Either component (the barrel and extension, or the bolt) may be at maximum manufacturer drawing limits. Stacking two components at max may lead to excessive and unsafe headspace.
Headspace is the distance from the base to a datum line on the shoulder, NOT the gap between the bolt face and front of the lugs and the base of the barrel.
OP, happy to send you a free field gauge (mentioned above by sinister) for you to check your carbines with...hell keep it if you want.
I do what sinister advised; check every barrel prior to use. BCM, FN, Noveske, Colt, Douglas, and DD have all checked out. My luck, the day I forgot is the day I'm in your shoes. Glad you weren't hurt.
The ammo is the problem here. Just a few days ago my SBR blew up. The barrel was a BCM 12.5" w/an LMT enhanced carrier and BCM bolt. Upper had about 8K through it and had functioned 100% without issue.
The ammo was some remanufactured stuff that was supposed to be good to go. Unfortunately it wasn't. The carrier split at the bottom, extractor was trashed and the upper was bulged. I haven't been able to inspect the barrel yet.
My round looked almost identical to yours.
Singlestack Wonder
07-06-13, 19:15
Rubber City Armory....:rolleyes:
The ammo is the problem here. Just a few days ago my SBR blew up. The barrel was a BCM 12.5" w/an LMT enhanced carrier and BCM bolt. Upper had about 8K through it and had functioned 100% without issue.
The ammo was some remanufactured stuff that was supposed to be good to go. Unfortunately it wasn't. The carrier split at the bottom, extractor was trashed and the upper was bulged. I haven't been able to inspect the barrel yet.
My round looked almost identical to yours.
Holy shit, you good?
Heavy Metal
07-06-13, 19:22
The ammo is the problem here. Just a few days ago my SBR blew up. The barrel was a BCM 12.5" w/an LMT enhanced carrier and BCM bolt. Upper had about 8K through it and had functioned 100% without issue.
The ammo was some remanufactured stuff that was supposed to be good to go. Unfortunately it wasn't. The carrier split at the bottom, extractor was trashed and the upper was bulged. I haven't been able to inspect the barrel yet.
My round looked almost identical to yours.
SBR? I double hope your lower is fully intact Gunz.
Go & No Go gages are a pointless and the field gage is questionable considering it can mathematically fit in a "Go" chamber and still be safe. If someone were just dying to spend money on a headspace gage, the MAX/REJECT at 1.4736 is really the only one you need.
I'm fine, someone else was shooting it. I suspect that there were several factors that limited the damage. The Vltor MUR upper and the LMT enhanced carrier probably helped it. The lower is good thank (insert Deity here).
SBR? I double hope your lower is fully intact Gunz.
SBR? I double hope your lower is fully intact Gunz.
First thing that came to my mind as well.
OP and Iraqgunz, I have noticed over the years that most "lessons" involve some sort of pain, whether it's physical, mental or monetary.
Glad to see that you guys are more in the monetary than either of the other two.
This thread struck me as a reminder of the inherent dangers of our hobby and I'm glad to see it didn't have a more painful ending.
Agree on Go and No-Go gages. There doesn't seem to be any consistency in the headspace they measure, they're just made to some manufacturer's arbitrary dimension between the accepted max and min. A true Field gage does measure the max 1.4736 dimension though.
Go & No Go gages are a pointless and the field gage is questionable considering it can mathematically fit in a "Go" chamber and still be safe. If someone were just dying to spend money on a headspace gage, the MAX/REJECT at 1.4736 is really the only one you need.
I'm more of an AK guy, and when building a gun headspacing is a very critical part of the process. In the AR world it's more of a "use the force" mentality it seems. People just expect that the stuff will be in spec and assemble their uppers from parts made by a dozen different companies. This thread reminds me that I need to get some 5.56 gauges. Glad everybody was unhurt. :p
ETA - Btw I'm not being snarky at all. I have no idea if the ammo was the culprit, it very well might have been. My post was more to say that verifying headspace is just one more line of defense in the struggle to ward off catastrophic failures.
The third round, detonated before the bolt carrier was fully seated and the bolt fully rotated back in place The bolt itself was fully engaged in the lugs of the barrel, however, as I said, it detonated prior to full BCG seating.
Curious how you determined it fired before the carrier was fully seated?
Unless you had a high primer or out of spec (super long) firing pin this should not be possible. (at least as I understand the AR design and my hands on testing)
Wonder if the carrier stuck partly in recoil, but stopped because the case was stuck??? Tore the rim off trying to pull it out? That makes more sense to me.
Also, did you by chance chamber the cartridge more than once? Test cycling, that type of thing? (Partial firing pin strike issue).
Sinister, I'm curious about your photo's. Normally excessive headspace failures show thinning in the web, which leads to the failure. If it stretches, it pretty much has to get thinner. Also the cases are measurably longer when measured at the shoulder, etc.
Your photo's look to me like super high pressure. I'm sure you have more data/specifics, just jumped out at me that the web was not thinner from stretching.
If the OP's issue is excessive headspace it should be easy to determine by measuring the brass. Everything I see indicates excessive pressure from cartridge mfg (let's hope not), bullet jammed in lands from miscut throat or too long, partial barrel blockage from squib, or something. But that's just me commenting on internet photos. :)
First thing I'd do is measure some fired brass from the problem rifle with a comparator on the shoulder vs unfired vs known good fired.
Heavy Metal
07-06-13, 21:59
If the gun was out on headspace, examination of the previously fired casings would show it.
Heavy Metal
07-06-13, 22:00
Curious how you determined it fired before the carrier was fully seated?
He didn't, he is making an incorrect assumption based on the appearance of the case.
Rubber City Armory....:rolleyes:
I'll bite...how is this their fault? They are replacing the bcg for free. What exactly are you trying to imply?
Heavy Metal
07-06-13, 22:07
I would not bitch at RCA if I were you(the OP), frankly, I am amazed that extractor wasn't bent back like a over-cooked noodle.
I would not bitch at RCA if I were you(the OP), frankly, I am amazed that extractor wasn't bent back like a over-cooked noodle.
Let's see...
Bcg held up damn well.
Rca doesn't think their product caused the issue at all
Rca is replacing their now damaged product at no cost...just cause.
Wtf could anyone have to say about them that's negative?
Out of battery fire due to primer not being fully seated in pocket, Is my best guess. If not mistaken (probable am), excessive headspace failure looks like incipient case head separation(usually related). The excess space from the datum line on shoulder to bolt face, allows excessive metal stress. But happens in "ring" pattern and is noticeable on brass above web. https://www.google.com/search?q=incipient+case+head+separation&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Yd_YUcSSMYbs8wTpyIGADA&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1347&bih=604
Assuming nothing else was wrong, no bad parts, etc. the firing pin won't protrude fully until the carrier is fully seated. This means the gun won't fire until the carrier is fully seated. I've heard of a few theories that explain how an out of battery firing can occur in an AR but its still a rare thing to happen.
OP, did you pull the trigger on the bad round or did it just go off on its own as it was chambered?
Eta: If you don't have the tools to measure your previously fired cases I can measure them if you want to send me a few.
I'm with IG on this one. If the bolt lugs are indexed with the RE lugs then the weapon is in battery. I cannot see how this is an excessive headspace issue when the weapon had fired dozens of rounds previous to the failure. If the headspace were that far out then it would have shown up as split or separated case heads. It looks as if the case was weak and the pressure found the path of least resistance. Damn scary considering the OP was a lefty.
The ammo is the problem here. Just a few days ago my SBR blew up. The barrel was a BCM 12.5" w/an LMT enhanced carrier and BCM bolt. Upper had about 8K through it and had functioned 100% without issue.
The ammo was some remanufactured stuff that was supposed to be good to go. Unfortunately it wasn't. The carrier split at the bottom, extractor was trashed and the upper was bulged. I haven't been able to inspect the barrel yet.
My round looked almost identical to yours.
I'd place my bets on this.
Here is some overpressured 7.62x51 that let go. the one on the left looks similar to the OP's case.
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/ad701xx/P9080929.jpg
The ammo is the problem here. Just a few days ago my SBR blew up. The barrel was a BCM 12.5" w/an LMT enhanced carrier and BCM bolt. Upper had about 8K through it and had functioned 100% without issue.
The ammo was some remanufactured stuff that was supposed to be good to go. Unfortunately it wasn't. The carrier split at the bottom, extractor was trashed and the upper was bulged. I haven't been able to inspect the barrel yet.
My round looked almost identical to yours.
Yikes!
Glad everybody's OK.
What causes the carrier to split?
That seems common with KBs.
OP,
Is the barrel a true 5.56 chamber?
Possible high pressure loads in questionable chamber causes overpressure and case failure...
I've always thought it was due to excessive pressure building in the carrier as it attempts to cycle.
What causes the carrier to split?
Always, and I mean always wear your safety eyewear. This could have had disastrous consequences. Carry on.
To update on this issue-
I received a brand new BCG from Rubber City Armory last week. I used Clymer 5.56mm GO and NO-GO headspace gages, and the bolt closed in the barrel on the GO gage, and failed to close on the NO-GO gage. Good news. Rubber City Armory reported to me that they replaced the bent extractor on my original BCG and have been shooting it for evaluation with no issues. They were pleased that the assembly withstood the overpressure round with only the bent extractor.
I am using a Wilson case gage on my remaining PPU ammo, and after 200 rounds, have yet to find anything that fails at this point.
I swapped the Extra Power buffer spring with one of the regular buffer springs that I got from a backorder.
I have deep cleaned and inspected the entire upper and barrel, and have not found anything that would speak of any further damage or defect.
I hope to get it out and shoot it soon, but at this point I am very positive with the outlook that the issue was ammo related and aside from the bent extractor no damage was done to the rifle.
Glad to hear your carbine headspaces correctly.
From the 1994 M4 MIL-SPEC ( http://biggerhammer.net/ar15/milspec/MIL-C-71186_(AR).pdf )
3.4.1 Headspace. The headspace shall not be less than 1.4646 inches nor more than 1.4706 inches when measured to the .330 inch datum diameter on the first shoulder of the chamber.
and how they check:
3.4.4 Hiqh pressure resistance. Each barrel assembly and bolt shall withstand the firing of one Government standard M197, 5.56mm high pressure test cartridge conforming to MIL-C-46936. After proof firing, parts shall be free of cracks, seams and other injurious defects as evidenced by visual and magnetic particle inspection.
4.7.1.1 Minimum gage. The bolt shall be moved rearward to the open position. The minimum headspace gage shall be inserted in the chamber and the bolt shall be returned to the battery position. Only finger pressure shall be applied to close the bolt. To be acceptable the bolt shall fully close.
4.7.1.2 Maximum gage. The bolt shall then be retracted to the open position and the minimum headspace gage removed from the chamber. The maximum headspace gage shall be inserted in the chamber and the bolt returned to the battery position. Only finger pressure shall be used to close the bolt. To be acceptable the bolt shall not fully close.
4.7.1.3 Dimensional inspection. If the above results are in dispute, the carbine shall disassembled and the 1.6206 + .0030 barrel dimension and the .15: - .003 bolt dimension shall be measured to determine compliance with the drawing requirements.
The focus now goes back to barrel and/or your ammo.
I may be wrong but I think this doc is dated. As far as I know only the Field Gage is being used.
Glad to hear your carbine headspaces correctly.
From the 1994 M4 MIL-SPEC ( http://biggerhammer.net/ar15/milspec/MIL-C-71186_(AR).pdf )
and how they check:
The focus now goes back to barrel and/or your ammo.
As of 2009, MIL-C-71186A keeps the same min-max headspace tests and adds another after the 50th 30-round mag cycle (1500 rounds after the proof round and grouping test fire):
3.6.7.6 Endurance headspace measurement. Headspace for weapons being fired with 30 round magazines shall be measured and recorded at the beginning of the test and at the completion of the 50th cycle. After the 50th cycle, the headspace shall not be more than .0028 inch greater than the initial measurement and shall not exceed .0024 inch over maximum (1.4706 inches when measured to the 0.330 inches datum diameter on the first shoulder of the chamber).
This accommodates any chrome that may have flaked or chipped off the chamber shoulder. Technically, anything longer than 1.4706 might allow a NO-GO gage to close. NO-GO is the safe LIMIT allowing the bolt to close. 1500 rounds is just burnishing the chrome from the throat and lands and the weapon should be nicely broken in.
If a bolt closes on a FIELD gage it is unsafe to fire. Headspace will be too long, allowing the case to possibly be unsupported around the chamber chamfer and allowing a pressure rupture out of the extractor groove on the bolt -- like the OP's photos.
As long as the bolt is locked, the relative position of the carrier is irrelevant. This is an ammo related incident. It's clear from the pictures that case failed.
EXACTLY. If the bolt rotated, it was in battery and that's all that matters.
And the round could NOT have fired by the firing pin if the bolt was not in battery. Physicall impossible.
The bolt could be locked, but if the chamfer or headspace is excessive (i.e., the distance from where the chamber walls end, the actual end of the barrel, and the bolt face/front of the bolt lugs begin could be wide open) the case walls aren't supported.
I'd be leery of the ammo, but I don't know if Mossberg has ever been assigned a government contract for spare AR/M4 barrels with extensions, either.
http://i43.tinypic.com/4juas6.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2u8jssm.jpg
As usual I am impressed by the knowledge base on this site!! Thanks guys.
I am not sure if this view will provide any additional insight to the case/ammo issue or not, but here is another photo I took tonight of the case showing another crack in the base of the case - along the primer pocket/hole - that wasn't visible in my previous photos.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0870_zpsab56a651.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0870_zpsab56a651.jpg.html)
Gonna take the carbine out and shoot it tomorrow night and will report back with results.
I assume the PP 2012 is loaded to 5.56mm pressure.
Is the Mossberg barrel throated for commercial .223 Remington or military 5.56mm?
Second, is the barrel Melonited inside as well (I would assume so, the way they're treated)? A combination of short throat and extremely hard leade might raise your chamber pressure.
This failure is almost exactly like mine. The upper is a BCM and I know its wIthin spec. Since the same ammo has caused other issues in my case there is no doubt it was ammo related.
I assume the PP 2012 is loaded to 5.56mm pressure.
Is the Mossberg barrel throated for commercial .223 Remington or military 5.56mm?
Second, is the barrel Melonited inside as well (I would assume so, the way they're treated)? A combination of short throat and extremely hard leade might raise your chamber pressure.
The barrel is marked as 5.56mm Nato, and yes melonite inside as well. I do not think I have any kind of gage to confirm this though.
You could try this: using a candle, soot up the bullet on one of the PP cartridges. Place in the chamber with your finger. Carefully tilt the barrel up (it should fall out) and try to catch it without disturbing any markings on the bullet.
Can you see any engraving marks on the bullet from your lands? Compare to the photo below. Depending if you have engraving marks, and where they are, they might tell you if your chamber just might be .223 Rem (on the left) vice 5.56 (on the right).
http://www.box.net/shared/static/oobedcsfkc.jpg
I know you stated (above) the Mossberg barrel is stamped "5.56 NATO" -- all this test would do is maybe verify it.
- Mossberg OEM 16" M4 Profile 1x7 Melonite Barrel
From AIM's site:
New Mossberg OEM 16" .223/5.56x45 caliber barrels for AR type Rifles. These high quality M4 profile barrels feature a complete inside and out Melonite coating, 1:7 twist and M4 feed ramps.
Specifications:
-.223/5.56 Caliber [Edited to ask, "OK, which one is it?"]
-M4 Profile
-1:7 Twist Rate
-1/2x28 Muzzle Thread
-M4 Feed Ramps
-Carbine length gas hole
-.750" Gas shoulder
That's helpful - thank you!
This post will probably have WAY more information than you want but may help explain what you've been going through.
My recommendation to you (and this is just a recommendation), now that you have checked for safe headspace, is to check what type of throat (SAAMI 223 or military 5.56) you have.
Fire a single .223 Remington commercial cartridge and use a micrometer to find where, above the extractor groove, your case starts to swell (this will be the gap distance from the true face of the bolt to the rear of the supported portion of your barrel, starting at the chamber chamfer radius) and the distance to your bolt face.
Use your micrometer and find the distance from your bolt face to the front of the bolt lugs (should be around .200 inches). This supports the case head.
Subtract that distance from where the case starts to swell (where the chamfer radius begins) and you'll find the total distance where the brass cartridge case is not supported at all.
Below is an exaggerated example of over pressure and cartridge case base expansion, you measure this with a set of vernier calipers or a micrometer. Also you will see brass start to flow into the ejector button on the bolt face and shows up as a circular ring on the base of the case. (easiest to see and the first sign of a pressure problem)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/flow.gif
US-made GI brass case walls are thickest here and is even thicker with Winchester and PMC brass. I don't know how PP makes their brass.
Measure the dimension of that unsupported area (forward of .200 inches). Does it exceed drawing dimensions?
Drawings below:
http://labscdn.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/223-Remington-cartridge-and-chamber-791x1024.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/prints/DSCN3076.jpg
Check how US GI brass is generally formed, and compare to where yours ruptured:
http://www.murdoconline.net/2008/M855_drawing.jpg
http://www.ronterry.com/arms/images/0027.jpg
http://www.ronterry.com/arms/images/0028.jpg
http://www.ronterry.com/arms/images/0029.jpg
Ned Christiansen post copied from M4carbine:
I've posted this before but I think it bears retelling.
From a guy at ATK / Federal:
"As case in point, I fired XM193 5.56 ammunition in a 223 test barrel with average pressures (conformal transducer) of 72,550 psi, and peak pressure registered at 76,250 psi. Continued shooting of 5.56 ammunition in guns not chambered for 5.56 will show many warning signs of over-pressure, such as flattening of primers, smearing of the head stamp, dropped primers, blown primers and pre-mature wear on extractors and bolts.
It needs to be mentioned, however, that several civilian manufacturers of AR15 type rifles have not adhered very tightly to the necessary chamber/throat dimensions of 5.56, while marking their barrels as “5.56 NATO”.
It is my assumption that this is happening for two reasons: there is a belief that a rifle will shoot more accurately if the throat causes early engagement of the bullet to the rifling, although this is not necessarily proven.
The other reason is likely that manufacturers, under extreme duress to supply large numbers of rifles, are not replacing reaming tools early enough.
Because of this, some manufacturers’ rifles have a tendency to show signs of over pressure when shooting 5.56 ammunition, up to and including dropping and blown primers. This problem is easily remedied by judicious use of a finish reamer to provide that important amount of needed space, or to limit the rifle to a 223 diet."
All done, if your chamber mics as a properly-reamed 5.56 chamber then you definitely have an ammo problem.
Eurodriver
07-19-13, 18:53
Every time I read one of sinisters posts I want to buy a hundred centurion rails.
Cincinnatus
07-19-13, 19:50
Because of Sinister's posts, I think this threadshouldbe a sticky. Excellent info!
Okay, I took the carbine out tonight for a test run.
I fired a couple mags worth of 5.56mm Winchester 64gr JSP and Winchester 62gr OTM. Everything ran like a top, zero issues. I inspected each piece of brass and saw no signs of pressure or anything to give me pause.
I do not have any candles in my home, but used a marker an tried a 5.56 round as suggested by Sinister above. Slight marks appeared on the round 0.11" north of the case mouth. Visually, it looks to match the above pictures 5.56 round.
At the risk of sounding stupid, I have a fired .223 Rem case, but I am unsure which dimension from the above drawing I am to compare it to. My engineering and print reading skills could use a freshen up.
Please let me know, I will report back!
Thanks again!
Where are the engraving marks compared to the orange line?
http://www.box.net/shared/static/oobedcsfkc.jpg
Marks on the bullet of an unfired cartridge should start around 2.0026" with a 5.56 leade, 1.812" to 1.870" for SAAMI .223.
I believe they fall above the orange line. It's the max diameter of the bullet before it starts to taper - on a Winchester 62gr OTM.
I realize this is very subjective... I will try to upload a picture of it tonight.
This is the best I could get:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0871_zps39b87f9a.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0871_zps39b87f9a.jpg.html)
Cincinnatus
07-20-13, 12:37
Take that barrel to someone with a true 5.56 finishing reamer and have them ream the camber, if it cuts some metal then it wasn't really 5.56 to begin with. Randall Rausch at AR15 barrells isknown to do this. I bet ADCO would do it as well. Maybe someone withsuch a reamer will volunteer to let you send it to them, free less shipping charges?
Excellent. Now, what is your length from the base to this mark?
http://i39.tinypic.com/n62r60.jpg
I measured 1.88" with my calipers.
Looks like you've got a .223 Remington chamber.
Military 5.56 is a straight cylinder to 2.0026" (where your rifling land leade angle starts). .223 Remington leade angle starts at 1.8570". Look at the prints and compare.
The good news is you can shoot commercial pressure ammo 'til the cows come home (some say 40,000 to 50,000 rounds!). A Melonite or salt nitride treatment will be hard and erosion-resistant for a long, long time.
The bad news is the treatment makes the steel surface HARD (perhaps 70 Rockwell). If you stick a 5.56mm finishing reamer in the chamber you could possibly damage the reamer.
Is this a dangerous condition? Only if you get an odd, over-pressure 5.56 cartridge.
Just to be sure, I will get a candle and try a couple more rounds to make 100% sure.
If it is indeed a .223 chamber, than 5.56 ammo is unsafe - correct?
If it is indeed .223, than I will be contacting AIM/Mossberg for some kind of resolution.... I have thousands of rounds of 5.56 and want to be able to safely shoot it in this rifle build.
Sounds like a winning plan! :)
If it wan't Melonited, nitrided, Hard-Blued, or whatever they call a hardened-treated steel I'd probably say forget about it -- but as it won't show much erosion and wear for a few tens of thousands of dollars worth of ammo I'd ask for a 5.56 throat.
Just so I'm clear in this... If it is .223 chamber, then is shooting commercial 5.56mm unsafe?
Thank you Sir for all of your knowledge and help!
It was my understanding that with a 5.56 leade, short bullets like 55 grainers, or anything loaded to mag length if considering reloads, would always be a few thousandths off the lands. Is it possible that dropping a marked bullet into a 5.56 chamber would produce no marks at all?
Just so I'm clear in this... If it is .223 chamber, then is shooting commercial 5.56mm unsafe?
5.56 military ammunition loaded to MIL-C-63989 (for M855) and MIL-C-9963 (for M193) are loaded hotter, to higher pressures, than SAAMI .223 Remington. They are meant to be fired in military chambers reamed for 5.56mm (with the extra freebore).
Prvi Partizan loads to CIP standard for 5.56 and is ISO quality-control certified:
In 1998, PPU was the first producer of Serbian Defense Industry, which gained certificate of Quality System conformity with requirements of standard ISO 9001:1994.
PPU is just finished activities on recertification of Quality Management System according to standard ISO 9001:2008.
A .223 throat will raise pressure. A barrel surface-hardened (a harder steel or treatment) will do you no favors.
Add a case with any anomoly (perhaps a thin wall and an off-center flash hole), or maybe a pushed-back bullet and gap between the end of the barrel and the face of the bolt lugs and you increase risk of a kaBoom.
Your personal rifle or carbine is designed and supposed to be built with a certain safety factor. We have pages and pages of specs and standards. Shaving off that factor is not prudent.
I'd REALLY be curious to see how your bolt would handle a GI proof round with this throat.
Look at the photos of your extractor. When the gas blew out of the base of the case it followed the extractor channel and bent the front of the extractor with lug up and into the barrel extension.
The M16/M4 is a good, solid design, but they also have a history of kabooms for unknown reasons. You have a reasonable idea how your particular carbine is built.
-----
As for the lands marking the bullet ogive, the absolute best way to determine whether the bullet touches the lands (or not) is to use an actual bullet and a Stoney Point gage. You'll feel when the bullet touches the lands, and you can mic the distance to the marks:
http://www.6mmbr.com/i//Gear_Stoney_Point_CompWCase.jpg
Just so I'm clear in this... If it is .223 chamber, then is shooting commercial 5.56mm unsafe?
Thank you Sir for all of your knowledge and help!
I'm putting that gauge in the mail to you tmrw FYI. But it sounds like you've confirmed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
I'm putting that gauge in the mail to you tmrw FYI. But it sounds like you've confirmed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Munch - I used a No-Go gage, and the bolt failed to close on that gage, so I probably won't need to check with a Field gage. Thanks very much for the offer and for your help. I have gotten a lot of help and information from lots of good guys on this site.
Okay - I dug out some votive holders and tea candles from our stash of wedding stuff, and went to town to soot up some bullets.
Prior to doing this, I did try again with some bullets that I marked up with a blue marker, and I failed to get any marks on the surface in this Mossberg barrel, or in my Spikes carbine. Perhaps the mark I saw and measured yesterday was handling induced? I don't know.
So, fast forward to the candle sooted bullets. I decided to use Winchester Ranger 5.56 ammo with 64gr Nosler bullets. They have less taper than the 62gr OTM, or the 62gr PPU, so I thought I would have a better chance of getting visible marks with this setup.
The candle soot method is very good for easily getting a visual on any marks that will be introduced by the throat leade. It is also very good for getting a visual on all and any handling marks that may occur by hand dropping the round (if it rotates as it drops), and letting it fall out and whatever it may hit on the way.
With that said, I had to repeat this exercise with care many times to try and get results that were worth anything.
After many repetitions, I was able to decipher the 'noise' marks from the ones that meant something. These marks, as measured with my calipers collectively ranged from 1.96" to 2.00"
Here are two of the more clear ones:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0875_zpsbfa26465.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0875_zpsbfa26465.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0874_zpse3ddc045.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0874_zpse3ddc045.jpg.html)
These measured at 1.98" and 1.99" respectively.
For comparison sake, I did the same thing with my Spike's carbine upper. Measurements I took here fell in the 1.98" - 2.00" range.
So - what does it all mean? My impression so far, would be that given successful measurements of GO/NO-GO Headspace with the barrel and new BCG assembly, a successful test fire using 5.56 ammo and no signs of overpressure, and this somewhat subjective and margin of error analysis of throat leade showing closer to the correct 5.56 dimension - that maybe all is good after all, and the original issue may really have just been an overpressure round from Prvi Partizan.
Thoughts??
Do you know the lot number of the suspect ammunition?
Do you know the lot number of the suspect ammunition?
Yes, it is 1203-01.
The 5.56 drawing shows the throat should be straight out to 2.0026, with the end of the leade angle at 2.059.
Bullet ogives are all different, but with your alternates you're still showing a leade ending below 2.0".
I think you're closer to a SAAMI .223 than a .mil 5.56.
Here's how a weapon must be proof-inspected to be imported in Europe:
a weapon, once it passes customs, must be taken to a proof house. It will be proofed with a CIP import proof round (at 25% over accepted CIP pressure). If it passes it gets a stamp and can be sold within the country or exported to another European Union country.
If your Mossberg barreled carbine was to be proofed Euro/CIP style, would you feel comfortable shooting a single SAAMI +25% pressure round? How about a MIL 5.56 +25% pressure in your chamber?
Feeling lucky?
Call Brian at AIM -- I'm sure he'll help you out.
Would you recommend the Ned C. gage as a good final say for this?
I will re barrel this if I have to, I want the rifle to be safe. But before I go down that path, I would feel good about something to gage or measure that's a bit less subjective than what I have done so far...
I do have to say again - thank you - for all of the time and involvement for this thread. I can honestly say I have learned a great deal of knowledge through this issue, and that's invaluable to my future shooting endeavors.
Normally I'd probably use one of Ned's 5.56 reamers (if he was lending one), but with the Melonite I wouldn't want to ruin it if the barrel's harder than the reamer.
SAAMI .223 chamber pressure is 55,000 psi piezo pressure. CIP 125% would be 68,750. M197 proof is 70,000.
Dr. Phil Dater did some testing showing between 52,000 and 57,000 for nine M855 rounds (measured 3 inches in front of the chamber), so the military's stated 55,000 psi is probably close.
Mark 262 77-grainers can go up to 58,700, while the new M855A1 can go to 63,000.
The GI proof cartridge often blows out the primer and jacks up the nickel-plated case in a 5.56 chamber -- without damaging the rifle.
Your carbine blew out the case and bent the extractor. You still need to confirm what type of chamber you have and what pressures the Prvi 5.56 generates.
SAAMI formally states not to use 5.56 Military in a firearm chambered for .223 Remington:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf
Read this from Armalite:
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes/TECH%20NOTE%2074%20%205.56%20vs%20223%20vs%20Wylde%20090817%20Rev%200.pdf
Every time I read one of sinisters posts I want to buy a hundred centurion rails.
What is Sinister's connection to Centurion?
Munch - I used a No-Go gage, and the bolt failed to close on that gage, so I probably won't need to check with a Field gage. Thanks very much for the offer and for your help. I have gotten a lot of help and information from lots of good guys on this site.
Yea looks like sinister has you squared away. Sorry it took me a while to get that in the mail. It's been sitting (still is) on my desk for at least a week.
Munch - I used a No-Go gage, and the bolt failed to close on that gage, so I probably won't need to check with a Field gage. Thanks very much for the offer and for your help. I have gotten a lot of help and information from lots of good guys on this site.
It looks like you've got this figured out. I have a 5.56mm chamber guage on the way from Ned. If you really want to know if the chamber is in spec, you can send it to me and I can guage it for you.
garand1945
07-22-13, 22:41
What about casting the chamber with Cerrosafe? That would show you exactly what is going on with the leade and throat
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb
Yesterday morning I dropped an order in to Michiguns for one of the 223/5.56 chamber gages.
I will check it when it arrives ( assume next week ) and report back.
I did confirm with Ned directly that if it is indeed a .223 throat, his (or any for that matter) reamer would not cut the melonite barrel.
So, I will check the chamber with the gage when it arrived, if chamber is good then it's confirmed ammo issue, if chamber is .223 it could still have been an overpressure round, but culprit may lie most firmly with the barrel and chamber throat, and I will be in that case contacting AIM/Mossberg for a resolution on the barrel.
I did receive contact from Prvi Partizan, they asked me to send the blown case to their USA office for analysis and review.
What about casting the chamber with Cerrosafe? That would show you exactly what is going on with the leade and throat
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb
Honestly, it wouldn't tell him anything. Unless you have a serious set of measuring tools, Cerrosafe nothing more than a $50 per pound waste of money.
As a brief update on this situation:
I am still waiting on delivery of the Michiguns .223/5.56 chamber gage.
With that said, I have decided that regardless of the results of that reading, I am going to replace the barrel in this carbine. If it's .223 Throat Leade - I will contact AIM/Mossberg for a refund/resolution. If it's 5.56mm throat leade, than I may opt to keep it as a spare.
I have since ordered a replacement barrel - BCM 16" RECCE 410 SS IonBond mid-weight barrel and mid length gas.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Recce-SS410-Barrel-Mid-Length-Gas-IONBOND-p/bcm%20ss410%2016-8%20ib%20bk.htm
I am convinced this barrel will suit my need appropriately for a LONG time to come.
Privi Partizan has also contacted me after receiving the blown out case, they informed me that it appears a longer than usual portion of the case was unsupported. They are also interested in my chamber reading results (which I informed them of was in process as an open variable). If no other explanation remains, they have offered to refund my purchase price for the ammo. I have countered that with to request an even round count exchange of new ammo, given the fact that my purchase price a year ago, won't buy me the same amount of ammo today (if I can even find it).
I will update again with further results when the chamber gage arrives, and provide in put on the BCM barrel when I receive it also, as well as the continued correspondence with PPU-USA.
I am patiently awaiting the end results of this.
I am patiently awaiting the end results of this.
At this point, I have sent photos of other fired cases to PPU without a response yet. I have not yet received the chamber gage. I hope it should arrive tomorrow or Saturday. This will verify or vilify the Mossberg barrel.
I did receive the BCM barrel noted above, and have installed it in my rifle tonight. It passes headspace checks GO and NO-GO successfully.
The BCM barrel is a VERY fine piece. Machining is beautiful, and the IonBond is done right. It is a little heavier barrel, but I almost think it balances a little better. This time I mounted a BCM Comp Mod 1.0 on the barrel as well.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0898_zps493a271b.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0898_zps493a271b.jpg.html)
I will update again when I receive the Michiguns gage and can complete the cycle on the Mossberg barrel, and the final outcome with PPU.
Today I received the chamber gage from Michiguns. After work I immediately went down and pulled all of my barrels to check them with it.
Drop the gage in the chamber. Turn barrel upside down, and see if gage drops freely. If it drops freely from the chamber, or can be removed from the chamber with no resistance, or spins freely - 5.56mm NATO chamber. If it does not drop free, does not spin freely, does not remove without resistance - less than 5.56mm NATO chamber, and possibly .223 REM or somewhere in between.
BCM 16" RECCE SS410 Barrel:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Recce-SS410-Barrel-Mid-Length-Gas-IONBOND-p/bcm%20ss410%2016-8%20ib%20bk.htm
The barrel gaged correctly as 5.56mm NATO. Gage dropped freely, spun freely, had no resistance.
Spikes Tactical M4LE Barrel:
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/upper-556-16-m4-le-wm4-handguards-fsp-p-657.html
The barrel gaged correctly as 5.56mm NATO. Gage dropped freely, spun freely, had no resistance.
Mossberg OEM 1x7 5.56 NATO Melonite Barrel:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XATIB556M4&name=Mossberg+OEM+16%22+.223%2f5.56+AR+Barrel&groupid=573
This barrel did not gage correctly as 5.56mm NATO. Gage did not drop freely. Did not spin freely. Removal encountered resistance.
Pics of gage:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0920_zps305903a2.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0920_zps305903a2.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0921_zpsc44ea3fa.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0921_zpsc44ea3fa.jpg.html)
Pics of gage in barrel chamber:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0922_zps40816328.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0922_zps40816328.jpg.html)
Barrel marked as 5.56NATO:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0923_zps654a3bd0.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0923_zps654a3bd0.jpg.html)
Gage does not drop freely from barrel:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/mba656/guns/IMG_0924_zps1f27234a.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/mba656/media/guns/IMG_0924_zps1f27234a.jpg.html)
Summary:
I'm glad I have re-barreled this carbine with the afore mentioned BCM barrel. I am excited to test it for accuracy and function soon. Regarding the Mossberg barrel - I will contact AIM tomorrow. With this in mind, I believe the overpressure situation that occurred here can be attributed to 5.56mm NATO ammunition in a .223REM chamber throat. It is confirmed the barrel is incorrectly chambered. It is and may never be proven that the PPU ammo was out of proper specification. I will also send them this information, and await their reply to confirm this line of thinking.
Lessons Learned:
- Always wear eye and ear protection when shooting.
- When assembling AR uppers, always check headspace.
- When assembling AR uppers, always check to verify the chamber is correct as advertised.
- Do NOT fire 5.56mm NATO ammunition in a rifle with a .223 chamber.
- Sometimes if a deal on a barrel or component seems too good to be true, it often times is.
Perhaps some of the content of this thread could be added to a 'Sticky' to document the effects of shooting 5.56mm NATO ammunition in a .223REM chamber throated barrel. For me, I was lucky that only damage to my rifle occurred (bent extractor). As a LH shooter, this could have ended up much more negatively for me given my face's proximity to the open dustcover and BCG.
I'm glad you got to the bottom of the issue. I recently picked up one of Ned's guages as well and it works exactly as described. It's a good piece of kit.
Not surprised by this at all. One day people will learn that there is no such thing as a cheap barrel, unless it fell off a truck.
Maybe one day people will realize that the barrel is the starting block of the build and determines just about everything else that will happen with the build..... one day.......
At the end of the day, if the barrel had lived up to its' advertised specifications, it would have been a very good pickup, and I would in no way have regretted it.
Sadly, it wasn't. It wouldn't have cost them any more machine time to make the chamber right.
I solely regret not following the 'trust but verify' mantra with this barrel.
On top of that it's just downright wrong that they stamp the barrel as such and sell it when it's known to not be true 5.56mm.
I hope that everybody that ordered one of these from the variety of wholesalers and distributors that sold them gets contacted with a warning. Probably not going to happen though, and my issue of a blowout is likely not the last we will see with various manufacturers short chambering barrels closer to .223REM and advertising as 5.56mm NATO. Which is sad.
I feel inherently good about the BCM barrel I have currently mounted. My lessons have been learned in fold, and I hope that by virtue of the world wide web, somebody else might have learned something too.
So many companies practice "chicanery" when it comes to stuff like this that I am surprised no one has sued them.
At the end of the day, if the barrel had lived up to its' advertised specifications, it would have been a very good pickup, and I would in no way have regretted it.
Sadly, it wasn't. It wouldn't have cost them any more machine time to make the chamber right.
I solely regret not following the 'trust but verify' mantra with this barrel.
On top of that it's just downright wrong that they stamp the barrel as such and sell it when it's known to not be true 5.56mm.
I hope that everybody that ordered one of these from the variety of wholesalers and distributors that sold them gets contacted with a warning. Probably not going to happen though, and my issue of a blowout is likely not the last we will see with various manufacturers short chambering barrels closer to .223REM and advertising as 5.56mm NATO. Which is sad.
I feel inherently good about the BCM barrel I have currently mounted. My lessons have been learned in fold, and I hope that by virtue of the world wide web, somebody else might have learned something too.
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