View Full Version : leave it, rebuild it, or start over?
So for a while I had two rifles. One a very basic BCM and the other a very heavy, overly accessorized Noveske lo pro. This was its first "completed state" after adding the DD RISII.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/jsop0331/noveskerail2.jpg (http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/jsop0331/media/noveskerail2.jpg.html)
I ended up selling the BCM and stripping down the Novekse to its current state dropping almost 3 pounds.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/jsop0331/IMG_2161.jpg (http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/jsop0331/media/IMG_2161.jpg.html)
What I want out of my rifle is it to be simple, light, and reliable (obviously). I do like having a free floated rail for the sake of hand placement and light mounting. I still feel like its current configuration still has to many components for me. Now that its my primary and only rifle I don't care what it looks like, only function form for the sake of performance.
So to simplify this for myself should I start rebuilding it with maybe slick rails and a more basic lower? Or possibly get a KAC lower in order to maintain the right hand bolt lock that I've become fond of with the magpul BAD lever?
Maybe a should sell it and just start over with BCM, DD, or colt and take any left over $ if any and put it towards ammo or training as a bonus? Another option I was looking into was just getting a KAC SR15 mod 1. It has the slick rails and abi lower, but again other specifics of that rifle over complicate the rifle I want to have.
This rifle currently weighs in at around 9 pounds minus the T1 and sling. Id like to cut that down a bit.
So what I'm asking is, whats the most economical, and effective way to achieve the rifle that I want?
Go for the clean canvas. Weight appears to be the primary thing you are attempting to change out, so go with a LW build, barrel length as short as possible (SBR's rock.) I totally agree with the need for a free float, and would strongly recommend the MI gen 2's as fitting your potential application. Maybe the reason you hang so much off your rifle is a feeling that it must do all things... might want to rethink that just a little, become self sufficient, allow the shooter in you to do those things.
I suspect you already know what you want in the feel of the project rifle, so trigger, sights and buttstock are on you!
Good luck.
I think part of why I hung so much on it in the beginning was for the sake of it to do everything to the fullest ability. After running an all day class with that and my light weight rifle I instantly realized how stupid that was.
All I really want it to do is cover my ass if I ever need it to. As in home invasion, or home defense in a natural disaster or something like that. I want to be able to beat it around and not worry about this or that breaking.
As for SBR, I don't know if I want to go down that road yet. I move a lot and I'm unfamiliar with how that would affect the rifle in a legal sense. Maybe I should go with an MRP for the ruggedness and modularity. But weight is a concern, as are the rails.
SpeedRacer
07-07-13, 12:26
By the time you replace all the parts to reduce the weight, you may as well have started over.
If SBR is out of the question, start with forged receivers, a 14.5" lighter profile barrel and a modular free float tube (Centurion CMR, Troy VTAC, Midwest Gen II, etc) versus quad rail. That alone would drop a couple pounds off of what you currently have. From there, only install what you determine is needed based on use and experience.
I find myself now building rifles not really focused on "how light can I make it", but instead "how much unneccesary weight can I drop". If there's a lighter part that accomplishes the same task without sacrificing reliability, I'll go that route. But weight is no longer my sole driving factor. I happen to perform best with Sopmod stocks and Eotechs, both some of the heaviest of their breed. However by lightening up the rest of the rifle I don't have to make sacrifices on those and can still have a very light and manuveurable weapon.
that thing is one version of perfect - i say leave it.
you could probably save a few more ounces by...
...taking off the batt storage tubes and removing the butt pad.
...cut down the rail panels to just the area where your hand actually touches the forearm. or just remove them all together and use gloves.
...cut down excess webbing on your sling.
...remove the pistol grip storage compartment.
however, you "should" have a backup rifle, so if you've got the itch, get a LW carbine gas upper as suggested below.
...start with forged receivers, a 14.5" lighter profile barrel and a modular free float tube (Centurion CMR, Troy VTAC, Midwest Gen II, etc) versus quad rail. That alone would drop a couple pounds off of what you currently have.
(i'll add that i just ordered one of the fortis rev HG's mainly due to it's light weight and std usgi bbl nut).
LtNovakUSA
07-07-13, 14:11
Or possibly get a KAC lower in order to maintain the right hand bolt lock that I've become fond of with the magpul BAD lever?
FYI, the right side bolt release on a KAC lower is just that. A release - you can not lock the bolt open with it. The SR-15 Mod 1 is a great rifle is you are looking for a light, well handling AR.
I wouldn't start over. It's not the rifle that does everything to the fullest ability, but the user. This is a rifle you are familiar with and know inside and out. Just strip it down to the basics-maybe keeping the microdot. Lose everything else. Great looking tool, I mean rifle, btw.
Parts, such as the upper & lower receiver, receiver extension, BCG, buffer, spring and lower parts are what they are and weights are not going to vary much. That leaves you with three places where you can save weight on your AR-
1) Barrel. Cutting it short will lighten it a little, but profile is where you'll see real weight savings. A short fat barrel will weigh more than a long thin one. Simply whacking an inch or two off a fat barrel is a waste
2) Furniture. Some handguards and buttstocks can be unnecessarily heavy. Find furniture that's light and suits your needs
3) Crapola. You've already addressed this one, but it bears repeating- Don't install or store anything on the rifle that's not needed to meet the mission at hand. Keep spares in a pouch, don't load the rifle with an AFG, foregrip and bipod, don't install lasers, compasses or other crapola you have no use for. Keep the accessories that you do install as light as practical
It will do little good removing BAD levers or changing out the lower or upper until weight is excised from the barrel, furniture and crapola
FYI, the right side bolt release on a KAC lower is just that. A release - you can not lock the bolt open with it. The SR-15 Mod 1 is a great rifle is you are looking for a light, well handling AR.
I was under the impression there was the ability to lock the bolt from the right hand side. With out it the KAC lower looses a lot of what made it worth the price tag to me.
I was under the impression there was the ability to lock the bolt from the right hand side. With out it the KAC lower looses a lot of what made it worth the price tag to me.
If you want bolt lock your only options are the AXTS A-DAC-F or AXTS AX556 I believe.
I wouldn't start over. It's not the rifle that does everything to the fullest ability, but the user. This is a rifle you are familiar with and know inside and out. Just strip it down to the basics-maybe keeping the microdot. Lose everything else. Great looking tool, I mean rifle, btw.
It's not that I want gadgets on my rifle to make me better. I wanted parts that made it a better tool. I learned my lesson that it was foolish.
It's stripped down version has been the current state for a while now.
I don't see much on it that I could take off. The extras on it is what make the part functional for me. I'm thinking about loosing the rail at least. I need those covers for the grip with the rail, but they're bulky as hell.
Parts, such as the upper & lower receiver, receiver extension, BCG, buffer, spring and lower parts are what they are and weights are not going to vary much. That leaves you with three places where you can save weight on your AR-
1) Barrel. Cutting it short will lighten it a little, but profile is where you'll see real weight savings. A short fat barrel will weigh more than a long thin one. Simply whacking an inch or two off a fat barrel is a waste
2) Furniture. Some handguards and buttstocks can be unnecessarily heavy. Find furniture that's light and suits your needs
3) Crapola. You've already addressed this one, but it bears repeating- Don't install or store anything on the rifle that's not needed to meet the mission at hand. Keep spares in a pouch, don't load the rifle with an AFG, foregrip and bipod, don't install lasers, compasses or other crapola you have no use for. Keep the accessories that you do install as light as practical
It will do little good removing BAD levers or changing out the lower or upper until weight is excised from the barrel, furniture and crapola
I don't really think its an individual part that makes it heavy. Maybe multiple parts that are generally heavier than normal adding up to make it what it is.
Looking at a KAC SR15 Mod1 weighing in at 6.6 pounds according to their website, and mine weighing it at 3 pounds more with the same configuration (flip up irons, and FF rail) there's gota be a some fat to trim off this thing. And by that it may come down to a few major components being swapped. Or maybe a different rifle.
It's not to heavy, I just think it weighs in at more than it needs to for me at least. I will say that it's balanced excellently though.
JR TACTICAL
07-07-13, 17:43
I went through similar thoughts as you with a few of the rifles I have had in the past. I dont think you need to get a whole new rifle but that is up to you.
If you want to really shed some weight I would ditch the RIS rail and go with a modular rail as mentioned above (I currently use a Troy VTAC and I am loving it)
and maybe get a basic buttstock such as an M4 style or MOE.
That will make a huge difference in my opinion and it will balance well, I know this because this is the exact setup I have currently. I would get you an exact weight of mine but we are moving and I packed my scale.
Good luck.
JR
wait... your down to 1 ar? build another!
I ran into the same problem with my first. But the main weight was from the 12" DD "LITE" rail and the Govt' profile barrel. I have a light, and an ACOG mounted to it, pulse irons.
It does not have too much accessories but too much rail and barrel (thickness).
So I went with 16" LW barrel, and 9" rail to keep the FSB and save weight.
It FEELS much lighter. Though I am not sure the exact savings, maybe a pound or two.
I went through similar thoughts as you with a few of the rifles I have had in the past. I dont think you need to get a whole new rifle but that is up to you.
If you want to really shed some weight I would ditch the RIS rail and go with a modular rail as mentioned above (I currently use a Troy VTAC and I am loving it)
and maybe get a basic buttstock such as an M4 style or MOE.
That will make a huge difference in my opinion and it will balance well, I know this because this is the exact setup I have currently. I would get you an exact weight of mine but we are moving and I packed my scale.
Good luck.
JR
I do love the cheak weld I get with the vltor and it doesn't seem to heavy. Really the rifle seems more front heavy than anything but balances with a mag in it.
I've been thinking about the NSR if I go the route of keeping it. It seems that the NSR will only save about 4 ounces though.
wait... your down to 1 ar? build another!
It's really a mater of easing tension with my wife. She doesn't understand why I'd need two. She cares more about me having two rifles that are "the same" than how much I spend on one. It's an argument we've had a few times about a few things. She finally understands a mountian bike and a road bike are very different.
Switch the handguard to the NSR, and put a X300 @ 12 o'clock. That should save you 10.3 ounces off of the front of your rifle by my calculations.
ETA:The RIS II weighs 17.7 oz, the NSR 13.5 weighs 11 oz, correct? Weight savings of 6.7 oz?
Switch the handguard to the NSR, and put a X300 @ 12 o'clock. That should save you 10.3 ounces off of the front of your rifle by my calculations.
ETA:The RIS II weighs 17.7 oz, the NSR 13.5 weighs 11 oz, correct? Weight savings of 6.7 oz?
Also without the hand guards of save a few oz. I have to do more research into the NSR. Is there a proprietary barrel nut/wrench for them?
I know there's a lot off assesories that are available. I'd just need a QD socket and a light mounting system. Probably one of those Thorntail or dropwing. I don't recal which one was what.
I can't seem to find the weight of a gen2 lower compared to a standard lower. Although I don't think it would be much difference.
I like your current setup, but if I was in the same position I'd go piece by piece.
Because I'm lazy my first move would be a 10" RIS, then I'd see how I liked it.
Then I'd go to a pistol light, like an x300 in front of your flip up sight.
If you still don't like it, that's when I'd try to go to a 14.5" upper with lighter rail.
Where the weight hangs makes it feel heavy too. I have an ARP LW 16" barrel, 13" VTAC rail with Troy folding frt/rr sights. A TLR1 at 12 oclock and I shed the ACS to a B5 Bravo stock. The weight is between my hands on a BCM Mod1 grip and the RVG. H-1 on a Seekins mount should be here this week. I have even been contiplating the NSR 13.5. My MD is a Phantom YMH. Trying not to hang weight on the end of the barrel. Leverage.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24318160/406934200.jpg
Are the M203 hangers removed from your rail?
I know its not much, but I believe it is over an ounce. I had it done to mine when Rainier installed the Ris II on my SR15 upper.
I don't have an M203 and won't ever be getting one, so unless you do its only a plus.
Also without the hand guards of save a few oz. I have to do more research into the NSR. Is there a proprietary barrel nut/wrench for them?
I know there's a lot off assesories that are available. I'd just need a QD socket and a light mounting system. Probably one of those Thorntail or dropwing. I don't recal which one was what.
I can't seem to find the weight of a gen2 lower compared to a standard lower. Although I don't think it would be much difference.
You will need a 1 and 1/16th inch crowfoot to go on a torque wrench to install the NSR barrel nut. Noveske makes them, as does snap-on and others.
Misread previous post. My post was non-responsive to comment, so I deleted it.
Are the M203 hangers removed from your rail?
I know its not much, but I believe it is over an ounce. I had it done to mine when Rainier installed the Ris II on my SR15 upper.
I don't have an M203 and won't ever be getting one, so unless you do its only a plus.
Yea I took those out immediately.
Comparing weights of some stocks, I see from vltor's website and Magpul's website that the MOE stock is only 1.4 ounces lighter.
I think my plan of action will be replacing the RISII and possibly my light set up. I'm also thinking about swapping my lower for a mil spec version but I'm having trouble locating weight differences on the two.
Concidering barrel contour has a lot to do with the weight up front maybe I should look into dimpling the barrel or something like that.
Thanks for the help guys.
Yea I took those out immediately.
Comparing weights of some stocks, I see from vltor's website and Magpul's website that the MOE stock is only 1.4 ounces lighter.
I think my plan of action will be replacing the RISII and possibly my light set up. I'm also thinking about swapping my lower for a mil spec version but I'm having trouble locating weight differences on the two.
Concidering barrel contour has a lot to do with the weight up front maybe I should look into dimpling the barrel or something like that.
Thanks for the help guys.
Personally, I'd keep the gen 2 lower. You already have it and it does serve a function in making reloads less error prone. Even if it is slightly heavier, it located in the rear half of the rifle where you won't notice the extra weight (maybe one ounce?). Think of it this way, the Gen 2 weighs about a couple of rounds in your mag more. Not going to notice it.
I think that you could probably benefit from a slick side type handguard like a Troy Alpha, Samson Evo or Noveske NSR. You can save a decent amount of weight, and still be able to mount whatever accessories you can't live without.
Also keep in mind the dollars to ounces ratio, you could end up spending a hell of a lot to get your barrel dimpled, etc but that's of course all up to you.
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