Any other P7 PSP owner here?

[AR15AK47USER]

I just picked one up last weekend at a gunshow. Grade "A" for $750 with serial numbered plastic case, two mags, all the tools and a manual. Took it out and shot it for the first time yesterday at the local plate league, it won the first time out. This gun grows on you quick and the butt mag release is no major detriment to reloads. Great gun, low recoil, accurate and very ambidextrous. I love it. Now it needs some Trijicon H3 inserts to make it a perfect carry piece.

[Army Chief]

Without going into too much detail (the Park Cities Tactical "Cult of the P7" board will fill in the blanks, if desired), what you have is actually a "P7" in the original "PSP" form factor, and not technically a P7 PSP; that said, in American parlance, we amost always call the Euro version a "P7 PSP." (I only mention this because, to a purist, the P7 and the PSP are actually two different variations of the same basic design.)

I've owned almost every P7 variation made over the years (M8, M10, M13 ...), and the P7 (or PSP) is my hands-down favorite. The heel-mounted mag catch is actually superior, in my view, for carry purposes, and the P7 has more compact dimensions and cleaner lines than the M-series P7s which followed.

These pistols are lighting fast, utterly reliable, and built to a quality standard that far surpasses anything we typically see in a "production grade" sidearm. The fixed polygonal barrel and low profile slide make them extraordinarily accurate and insure rapid repeatability on target. They have a loyal following, of course, but were generally priced well outside of the mainstream market when they were in active production.

Keeping in mind that retail prices were, and are, over $1,200 for these pistols when new, the recent ex-Polizei P7 imports strike me as one of the greatest values on the current market. You did well to invest in one while they are still available, but I suspect it won't be your last. For whatever reason, these things have a way of accumulating in one's safe. :)

Chief

[bspring]

I have one, and agree its just a super nice pistol. The only custom thing I did was adapt a M8 heat shield to it, it allows a few extra mags to be fired before a cool down period.

Bill

[Barry in IN]

I haven't carried my PSP, but have carried my P7M8 a lot.
I've had the M8 a while, but just got the PSP last summer as a "spare".

Great guns. I usually shoot them better than anything else I have. Even if I've been shooting other guns and haven't shot a P7 in a while and then do take one out, I will often shoot the P7 better than the others.

They are perfect for those times when I don't think I can conceal my usual 1911 or HiPower with what I might have to wear...and keeps me from having to settle for a J-frame or Kahr.
But I carry my M8 a lot of times when I don't "have to".

[Batt 57]

I also have a P7M8 but like the lines of the PSP better. Now that I finally added a P9S to the collection I'll start looking for a PSP.

[SIGfest]

Was interested in one of these but had a lot of questions. How is it for CCW? Hide better than a 239? I really like the German engineering. Same reason I was drawn to the Swiss rifles. Unique and well built.

[Barry in IN]

Was interested in one of these but had a lot of questions. How is it for CCW? Hide better than a 239?

Between the P239 and P7, I don't know if I would say one concealed better or worse than the other overall. One may be alittle better shaped here, and the other a little flatter somewhere else, so I think it's about even.

BTW- I wanted a single stack compact 9mm to use as an "in-between" gun for a long time, so I tried all the popular ones: P7, Sig P225 and P239, S&W 3913, etc., and carried them all quite a bit. Truthfully: I think any one of them is as easy to carry as the next. Just like comparing the P7/P239- One may be a little taller, but the next may be a little longer, and the third may be better elsewhere. The more you look at them, the more you find like that. I just settled on the one that was the easiest to use and shoot.

Back to the P7/P239 comparison-
Some will tell you that the P7 is too heavy. When you compare it to the P239, it IS a little heavier...By 2 ozs.
I can't tell 2oz difference, so I don't see what makes 25oz OK and 27oz too heavy.
Comparing the the four single stack 9mms I mentioned earlier, they all fall within about 2-1/4 ozs of each other. The P7 may be the heaviest, but it's the only one with a steel frame. Nothing against a good aluminum alloy frame, but if it only gains me a couple of ounces, I'll pass on it and take steel.
I think some people just expect the P7 to be lighter, so when they pick it up, their first reaction is how "heavy" it is.

[ToddG]

Barry -- I think you hit on a very important point that transcends the P7. Many people assume that a "bigger" gun is too big to carry, but the fact is that there's very, very little difference in one's ability to conceal any gun of the same general size and weight.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

The P7 is heavy, but it is very, very trim. It carries a lot like a Kahr, and certainly better than a miniglock, XD or P2000SK. I carried one for years. I did eventually start gravitating toward the Kahr PM9 because is easier to conceal than just about any gun out there (and it is sooo light).

[ChristopherM4]

P7 lover here. I've had mine just over a month and love it! It was rated as grade A but got it at grade B pricing due to minor blemish on frame/slide. The gun felt new as the slide was hard to rack. After 500 or so rounds she is finally breaking in. I dont have my CCL(just submitted paper work 2 wks ago) so I have no carry feedback. I do plan on shooting it at the IDPA match tomorrow with a IWB holster, so I'll see how that goes.

This is the easiest and best feeling gun I shoot. So much so that I'm going to order another next week. My current has a plum slide, I want black on black now. :)

Topher

[TOrrock]

I carried a Chantilly P7M8 for 7 years a while back.

Great pistol.

Definitely something you should devote yourself to learning the manual of arms on it though.

[kingc]

I've owned a P7M8 for many years and it is a joy to use. Don't like the scalding heat from the gas chamber. The lock work looks real scary and fragile when the grips are pulled. Has anyone had any real trouble with all those parts, breakage, etc? I bought the gun new, and it is supposed to have a "lifetime" repair warranty. I wonder how parts availability is?

[Army Chief]

The "scalding heat" argument is semi-valid, but rather overplayed in my view -- even for the original non-heat shielded P7 (non-M). Yes, the gun will heat up quickly if you fire 150-200+ rounds more or less in rapid succession, but that is a range issue (and perhaps a training issue), but not really a valid concern for carry. If you're prone to wearing gloves of some sort when you're on the range, that too can make a big difference.

The operating mechanism provides for an interesting paradox. It does tend to look rather fragile and prone to failure, but the reality is that these guns (a) are not prone to operating malfunctions of any sort, and (b) with the possible exception of the firing pin bushing in certain rare cases, parts failures are exceedingly rare. The parts are out there if/when you need them, but are admittedly somewhat hard to get because HK consistently has to call back to Germany to fill orders, and that takes time.

P7s, as a rule, simply don't break. They may be technical curiousities in some sense, but the design is surprisingly bulletproof, and durability hasn't proven to be an issue over some three decades of service.

Chief

[ToddG]

The "scalding heat" argument is semi-valid, but rather overplayed in my view -- even for the original non-heat shielded P7 (non-M). Yes, the gun will heat up quickly if you fire 150-200+ rounds more or less in rapid succession, but that is a range issue (and perhaps a training issue), but not really a valid concern for carry.

Any issue which diminishes my ability to train & practice is a valid concern. A close friend of mine took two P7s with him to Blackwater a few years back for a 5-day pistol class, and even switching out from gun to gun between breaks the gun was uncomfortably hot most of the day. He owns 11 (!!!) P7s so it was partially his own fault for not bringing more.

I'd agree that they are tough and reliable guns. I've seen them go down in classes, usually right after the owner finished bragging about how tough and reliable his P7 was. :cool: But the quality and design really are apparent.

[AR15AK47USER]

I shot it at plate league and did a bit of range work through it and did not find any heating issues, IMO. I do a lot of cooking and such so maybe my hands are insensitive to heat now, I also have large callouses in the right areas. I have very large hands and was mainly concerned about slide bite which has been a problem with Glocks, but is a non-issue with the P7.

As far as reliability, I understand Massad Ayoob did a torture test of 4 K rounds with no malfunctions without cleaning by letting his P7 be used as a training weapon for students whose own guns went down. His book, "The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self Defense", declares it the most reliable pistol out there. There are some nice pictures of how dirty it was when his tests ended on page 44.

I know of no one who will really run their gun that long with out at least a field strip in real life. At least no I don't run them that long.

[Barry in IN]

I've defended the P7 on the heating issue many times.
I'm not saying it doesn't get hot, but that it's not as big a problem to me as it must be to some.

I'd almost bet that nine out of ten heating complaints I've heard went something like: "Yeah, they shoot nice, but since it gets hot after 50 rounds or so, it's not good as a fighting pistol". What?

But yes, they get hot. No question about it.
Yes, the older PSPs without a heat shield and smaller trigger guard let you know it quicker.
But it takes about 50 rounds for me to notice with the PSP, and longer with the M8. By then, I'm stopping to either refill my empty mags, or marking/changing targets, and it gets a cool down. At the very, very worst case, I shoot something else for a couple of minutes. It's a good excuse to shoot the BUG!

My feeling is: If you have to take a break for a couple of minutes every 50-70 rounds to do things you probably have to do anyway, but you shoot the gun better than most (and many do): I think that's a pretty good tradeoff.

Besides, I hear a lot of people complain about how that too-hot-after-50-rounds thing is such a terrible detriment to their practice session, but I doubt many of them own enough mags for theirs to run 50 rounds through it without a break.

But yes, they do get hot.
I used to hesitate to take a P7 to a class for that very reason. But then I did, and have never had a case where the P7 was a detriment to my training. I went to one class last year that was a one-day class and estimated 500 rounds. It seemed to me like a good time to test the heating thing.
But I hedged my bet and took two, just in case.
Discounting time spent on delays, the opening lecture, and lunch, there was about 5.5 hours or actual demo and shooting time. I shot 530 rounds. That may not be buzzing through the ammo, but is more shots in less time than most classes call for, and I didn't regret bringing a P7.
I DID switch guns twice for a cool-down. Maybe I could have gone without it, but I didn't have to, so I switched. Both times were after what were basically shoot as fast as you can, reload, and do it all again until I tell you to quit type drills. I was not the ony one switching guns. I switched back the first chance I got.
I used an IWB Kydex holster and never set my butt on fire, or melted my holster, or have any other tragedy.

Regarding the number of parts/small parts in the gun:
I've never broken anything, but there are a couple of P7-only forums, and of all the people on them, I have heard of the following parts breaking: Maybe five or six drop safety blocks, same number of drop safety springs, and a couple of firing pin collars.
That may sound like a lot, but that's taken from a pretty good size sample of people.

The first time you take a grip panel off, you will crap. I did. It looks like there are 600 parts in the gun. The thing is, when you look there, you are looking at most of the parts. There just isn't much going on elsewhere in the gun.

Is it perfect?
Nope. What is?
I just despise the slide stop. The blued finish wears way too quickly. I'm not nuts about the sights, but don't hate them. They cost too much, and always have.

But they shoot like crazy, carry well, usually have great triggers, and work.
The good outweighs the bad for me.

[Army Chief]

... The first time you take a grip panel off, you will crap. I did. It looks like there are 600 parts in the gun. The thing is, when you look there, you are looking at most of the parts. There just isn't much going on elsewhere in the gun.

That's really a great point. The cocking mechanism and associated components look just unbelievably complicated, and the amount of engineering that went into the P7 is simply staggering -- especially given that it was largely done "old school" in a pre-CAD era. It seems counterintuitive to consider that such a complex design could prove so robust and resistant to failure, but the pistol has been around long enough, in enough hands, and under difficult enough conditions for us to conclude that Oberndorf made it work.

Switching gears, I know that much can be -- and has been -- made of the heating issue, and I've no great desire to revisit that. Still, I think we have to consider that this is a sidearm of a different era made to different requirements than most of us consider so essential today. It's not in a sexy new caliber. It's not a high-capacity design (at least, not in the most useful form factor). It doesn't conform to any ergonomic norms. It isn't optimized for lights, rails or other add-ons. It isn't made from the latest lightweight bomb-proof polymer. It isn't coated in the most advanced/durable/corrosion-resistant finish on the market. It doesn't lend itself well to upgrades, retrofits, or aftermarket components. It doesn't operate according to a "normal" manual of arms. It has never sold for anything approching a reasonable street price. Put simply, this isn't a gun designed to ride on your hip if your requirements include grueling all-day high round count firing sessions as a matter of course. It's not uber-tactical, and it is definitely not the wave of the future.

It just works ... and on those days when I neither need, nor want to carry, a 1911, that's good enough for me.

:)

Chief

[ToddG]

Discounting time spent on delays, the opening lecture, and lunch, there was about 5.5 hours or actual demo and shooting time. I shot 530 rounds. That may not be buzzing through the ammo, but is more shots in less time than most classes call for, and I didn't regret bringing a P7.

If 530 rounds in 5.5 hours is the max you'll have to deal with, I agree absolutely that the P7 will be adequate ... though even you pointed out that apparently the gun got warm enough that you chose to switch to a spare at times. As ArmyChief pointed out, the gun was designed in a different era when training methodologies were different. But I can easily shoot 500-600 rounds in two hours during a typical range session. Having used P7s a time or two myself, I've never been able to get more than 100 rounds into a session at this pace without having to put the gun down to let it cool off.

They're excellent guns, imho, if they meet your shooting needs. Personally, I can't really get behind the "too expensive" thing ... it's a unique, bulletproof gun. People who own twenty times more guns than they could ever hope to carry at once just sound silly when they complain about a gun being $500 more than another. You've spent literally tens of thousands of dollars on guns you won't be carrying but you can complain about the one you'll have with you when SHTF? :confused: (generic "you" obviously not meaning Barry)

[Barry in IN]

Yeah, the 530 rds in 5.5 hrs was just an example of a class, because that's where I was always concerned about using a P7 and that was probably the most I've shot in the least time in a class.
If I'm practicing on my own, I can slow down or stop whenever I want to. In the past, I had hesitated to take a P7 to a class because there- I'm at the mercy of the class's pace.
I've heard several P7 owners express the same concern over the years and many of those P7 users also choose to take a different gun to a class. I had the same concern, but not anymore. So I thought I'd throw that example out there.
Yes, I switched guns twice after ammo-burning drills, but so did others.

The "expensive" thing: It is more expensive than most 9mm carry guns. I cannot deny that.
But it's also a unique gun that works better for me in special cases...and isn't bad as an everyday gun either because I shoot it better than any other 9mm I've tried but one (and do about the same with them). Being able to shoot it that much better is easily worth twice the difference in price to me.
I got my first one for what Kimber's and Colt's 1911s were running at the time. Some people thought my P7 was expensive then, but didn't say a thing about the Kimbers or Colts. Go figure.

And I've been telling people for a year that they can buy one of the surplus PSPs for what is basically half price of an M8. THEN if they like the gun, they can trade later for an M8 or M13 if they want and should get their money back out of it. What the heck, it's like getting to try a new "system" for half price.