View Full Version : KAC SR-15 E3
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-13, 10:18
So I've been hit with the bug to drop a pretty penny on a nice 5.56 rifle. I already own a DDM4V1 LW, which I love and love the fact I can pretty much swap out any parts that I may need to with milspec parts, so now I'm looking for something a little different. I've been up in the air with what I want, along with the KAC SR-15 E3 I've been considering a SCAR 16s (I have a 17s), LWRC SPR (with ambi controls), Noveske w/switchblock or possibly LMT MRP.
LMT MRP & Noveske are pretty much only honorable mentions as the weight and balance turns me off, both are probably the most accurate of the bunch but I'm looking for lightweight. I currently own no NFA toys, but in the not too distant future can see myself setting up a trust and purchasing a supressor (something to consider which rifles would run the best suppressed).
The SCAR, LWRC & KAC were pretty much at the top of my list and all have the proprietary parts. At this point I'm leaning towards the KAC as it felt great in my hands when I picked it up at the LGS a few weeks ago. It lacked the rear ambi sling attachment, but from what I read this was a KAC goof up that has since been corrected.
So my questions regarding the KAC:
1. I understand the E3 bolt has a life of 20,000 rounds and replacement bolts are very expenisve (like $350), but is the BCG also proprietary or is it milspec?
2. Is there any known issue with KACs & Pmags? This is one of the things that turned me off about the SCAR 16 is pmag issues.
3. Does KAC sell SR-15 E3 Mod 1s with Giessele trigger installed or is the only option the KAC trigger? Reading some of the reports on this forum and others about the lack of durability w/ the KAC trigger would be the main reason I'd be looking to replace it.
So I've been hit with the bug to drop a pretty penny on a nice 5.56 rifle. I already own a DDM4V1 LW, which I love and love the fact I can pretty much swap out any parts that I may need to with milspec parts, so now I'm looking for something a little different. I've been up in the air with what I want, along with the KAC SR-15 E3 I've been considering a SCAR 16s (I have a 17s), LWRC SPR (with ambi controls), Noveske w/switchblock or possibly LMT MRP.
LMT MRP & Noveske are pretty much only honorable mentions as the weight and balance turns me off, both are probably the most accurate of the bunch but I'm looking for lightweight. I currently own no NFA toys, but in the not too distant future can see myself setting up a trust and purchasing a supressor (something to consider which rifles would run the best suppressed).
The SCAR, LWRC & KAC were pretty much at the top of my list and all have the proprietary parts. At this point I'm leaning towards the KAC as it felt great in my hands when I picked it up at the LGS a few weeks ago. It lacked the rear ambi sling attachment, but from what I read this was a KAC goof up that has since been corrected.
So my questions regarding the KAC:
1. I understand the E3 bolt has a life of 20,000 rounds and replacement bolts are very expenisve (like $350), but is the BCG also proprietary or is it milspec?
2. Is there any known issue with KACs & Pmags? This is one of the things that turned me off about the SCAR 16 is pmag issues.
3. Does KAC sell SR-15 E3 Mod 1s with Giessele trigger installed or is the only option the KAC trigger? Reading some of the reports on this forum and others about the lack of durability w/ the KAC trigger would be the main reason I'd be looking to replace it.
Carrier is normal, my KAC lower has no problems with pmags, and they only use their own trigger. And that trigger is almost as good as a SSA and it's much better than a new LMT 2 stage. I don't know about durability though.
Army Chief
07-09-13, 11:25
Have owned both the SR and the SCAR. They bring different things to the table, but the SR remains my preferred solution to any problem requiring the punching of holes therein. No issues with the bolt. No issues with PMAGs. No issues with the trigger.
AC
To clarify, I've tried USGI aluminum mags, Gen M2 and 3 pmags, and Lancer AWM mags and all drop free on empty.
I've owned and used a bunch of rifles including the SCAR 16 and LWRC M6A2 and I prefer the KAC SR-15 E3.
Voodoo_Man
07-09-13, 12:12
I have both an SR15 E3 and a SCAR 16s.
The SR15 E3 is by all means "the" AR15 to own. The trigger is above average, the lower is above average, hell, everything is above average.
I prefer it to my SCAR and I really like my SCAR.
Army Chief
07-09-13, 12:19
I have both an SR15 E3 and a SCAR 16s.
The SR15 E3 is by all means "the" AR15 to own. The trigger is above average, the lower is above average, hell, everything is above average.
I prefer it to my SCAR and I really like my SCAR.
This summation is above average.
AC
I have both an SR15 E3 and a SCAR 16s.
The SR15 E3 is by all means "the" AR15 to own. The trigger is above average, the lower is above average, hell, everything is above average.
I prefer it to my SCAR and I really like my SCAR.
This summation is above average.
AC
My thoughts are reflected here as well. Out of the box there is not another rifle that brings to the table as much as the Sr15. Just buy it and you will not regret it.
MichaelVain
07-09-13, 12:31
I have a SCAR-16 and a few SR15s.
The SR15 strikes the best balance between weight, bulk, and a system that takes recoil out of the equation for multiple shots.
As said, it's really the AR to own. Also, when you add up all the things you get with it, I always felt it was a cost effective package.
FWIW, I think the 2 stage trigger is very good. I have never heard anything about it not being robust or durable.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-09-13, 12:38
I own 2 BCMs, 2 LWRCs, and 1 DD. All are awesome guns. If I could pick one rifle today, though, it wouldn't be any of them. It would be an SR-15. They're just an all-around superb rifle.
And if you're worried about parts commonality (I am too), don't when it comes to the KAC. Despite the bolt being proprietary and requiring a special chamber, the KAC chamber is also compatible with mil-spec bolts, so you always could put one in if needed. Everything else that matters (carrier, buffer, FCG, etc.) is also mil-spec compatible.
With regards to the trigger, I prefer an SSA. If you do too, buy one from Midway or Brownell's, put it in the gun (easy to do), and sell the KAC trigger in the EE.
There. All your problems are solved. Buy one. Now. :)
So I've been hit with the bug to drop a pretty penny on a nice 5.56 rifle. I already own a DDM4V1 LW, which I love and love the fact I can pretty much swap out any parts that I may need to with milspec parts, so now I'm looking for something a little different. I've been up in the air with what I want, along with the KAC SR-15 E3 I've been considering a SCAR 16s (I have a 17s), LWRC SPR (with ambi controls), Noveske w/switchblock or possibly LMT MRP.
LMT MRP & Noveske are pretty much only honorable mentions as the weight and balance turns me off, both are probably the most accurate of the bunch but I'm looking for lightweight. I currently own no NFA toys, but in the not too distant future can see myself setting up a trust and purchasing a supressor (something to consider which rifles would run the best suppressed).
The SCAR, LWRC & KAC were pretty much at the top of my list and all have the proprietary parts. At this point I'm leaning towards the KAC as it felt great in my hands when I picked it up at the LGS a few weeks ago. It lacked the rear ambi sling attachment, but from what I read this was a KAC goof up that has since been corrected.
So my questions regarding the KAC:
1. I understand the E3 bolt has a life of 20,000 rounds and replacement bolts are very expenisve (like $350), but is the BCG also proprietary or is it milspec?
2. Is there any known issue with KACs & Pmags? This is one of the things that turned me off about the SCAR 16 is pmag issues.
3. Does KAC sell SR-15 E3 Mod 1s with Giessele trigger installed or is the only option the KAC trigger? Reading some of the reports on this forum and others about the lack of durability w/ the KAC trigger would be the main reason I'd be looking to replace it.
Having owned or still own all the rifles you listed, I agree with what everyone else is suggesting and would put the SR15 at the top of the list out of the choices.
Also, I would give the KAC trigger a shot before you consider swapping it out to a Geissele, it may just surprise you a little bit. If I were to compare to it any of the Geissele's, it would compare to the SSA from my personal opinion and use of both.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-13, 15:38
With regards to the trigger, I prefer an SSA. If you do too, buy one from Midway or Brownell's, put it in the gun (easy to do), and sell the KAC trigger in the EE.
Any idea what the demand is for a used, like new KAC trigger? Any idea of a fair price one could fetch?
DreadPirateMoyer
07-09-13, 16:00
Any idea what the demand is for a used, like new KAC trigger? Any idea of a fair price one could fetch?
Hmmmm. I honestly don’t know, but I could take a guess for you. My general rule of thumb for selling like-new parts that came on a rifle but were replaced immediately/never actually used (which I’ve done a lot, actually: triggers/FCGs, stocks, grips, rails, charging handles, etc.) is to price them for 10-20% off the price you could normally buy it for online. So, for example, if my rifle came with a Geissele SSA and I wanted to replace it, I’d sell it for roughly $180 (normally lists for $210) shipped. It’s a fair deal since people are getting a part that is literally brand new – just not in factory packaging – for 10-20% off, and you get money you otherwise wouldn’t have.
Using that rule of thumb, the KAC trigger lists for $330 on the website, which I think is fairly overpriced considering most people would just buy a Geissele for $210 instead. Thus, even with a “used-like-new” discount, the trigger would still be roughly $270, which I still don’t think anyone would buy in light of a Geissele. Using the Geissele SSA as a good reference point, then, I’d imagine you could sell it for between $150-200. Should that be true, you’d only be adding about $60 to the cost of the overall rifle, which is a drop in the bucket on the overall price.
Hope that helps.
Any idea what the demand is for a used, like new KAC trigger? Any idea of a fair price one could fetch?
Based on what I've sold new ones for in the past, I'd estimate $150.
So I've been hit with the bug to drop a pretty penny on a nice 5.56 rifle. I already own a DDM4V1 LW, which I love and love the fact I can pretty much swap out any parts that I may need to with milspec parts, so now I'm looking for something a little different. I've been up in the air with what I want, along with the KAC SR-15 E3 I've been considering a SCAR 16s (I have a 17s), LWRC SPR (with ambi controls), Noveske w/switchblock or possibly LMT MRP.
LMT MRP & Noveske are pretty much only honorable mentions as the weight and balance turns me off, both are probably the most accurate of the bunch but I'm looking for lightweight. I currently own no NFA toys, but in the not too distant future can see myself setting up a trust and purchasing a supressor (something to consider which rifles would run the best suppressed).
The SCAR, LWRC & KAC were pretty much at the top of my list and all have the proprietary parts. At this point I'm leaning towards the KAC as it felt great in my hands when I picked it up at the LGS a few weeks ago. It lacked the rear ambi sling attachment, but from what I read this was a KAC goof up that has since been corrected.
So my questions regarding the KAC:
1. I understand the E3 bolt has a life of 20,000 rounds and replacement bolts are very expenisve (like $350), but is the BCG also proprietary or is it milspec?
2. Is there any known issue with KACs & Pmags? This is one of the things that turned me off about the SCAR 16 is pmag issues.
3. Does KAC sell SR-15 E3 Mod 1s with Giessele trigger installed or is the only option the KAC trigger? Reading some of the reports on this forum and others about the lack of durability w/ the KAC trigger would be the main reason I'd be looking to replace it.
Most of your questions have been answered, but I'll share my experience.
1) BC is standard
2) I've lost count of the number of KAC lowers I've owned, at least 4 since 2008. All of them worked fine with pmags and my current 2 lowers also work fine with tango down ARC mags.
3) If you are thinking about the SSA, I would advise you to try the KAC first. The current triggers are NiB coated to improve durability and are quite frankly, indistinguishable from the SSA. I have an older KAC Match 2 stage trigger (from a Legacy SR15) that is hands down better than any SSA I've ever owned. If you want a Geisselle, the SSA-E will provide a more noticeable difference in pull weight, but is a little too light for my tastes on a fighting carbine. I use an SSA-E on my precision AR and like it alot for that application. Considering that the KAC trigger comes with the gun, I'd say save your money. Just my opinion, but I don't see the advantage or cost benefit of swapping it out for the SSA. For the record, I am saying that as a Geisselle fan, so take it for what it's worth. They're both good triggers.
Here's something to ponder.
Everyone always asks about their bolts lasting or being able to swap.
But have you ever seen or heard of one breaking?
Stoner redesigned the bolt once he came into knights. And it's better than any other bolt out there... Period.
Based on what I've sold new ones for in the past, I'd estimate $150.
Most of your questions have been answered, but I'll share my experience.
1) BC is standard
2) I've lost count of the number of KAC lowers I've owned, at least 4 since 2008. All of them worked fine with pmags and my current 2 lowers also work fine with tango down ARC mags.
3) If you are thinking about the SSA, I would advise you to try the KAC first. The current triggers are NiB coated to improve durability and are quite frankly, indistinguishable from the SSA. I have an older KAC Match 2 stage trigger (from a Legacy SR15) that is hands down better than any SSA I've ever owned. If you want a Geisselle, the SSA-E will provide a more noticeable difference in pull weight, but is a little too light for my tastes on a fighting carbine. I use an SSA-E on my precision AR and like it alot for that application. Considering that the KAC trigger comes with the gun, I'd say save your money. Just my opinion, but I don't see the advantage or cost benefit of swapping it out for the SSA. For the record, I am saying that as a Geisselle fan, so take it for what it's worth. They're both good triggers.
Your trigger assessments above are spot on in my book. After selling several KAC triggers myself, and always watching P2P marketplaces.....$150 is really dead nuts accurate.
Here's something to ponder.
Everyone always asks about their bolts lasting or being able to swap.
But have you ever seen or heard of one breaking?
Stoner redesigned the bolt once he came into knights. And it's better than any other bolt out there... Period.
KAC has broken plenty of them, I'm sure. Enough of them to offer a 20K round warranty, which says a lot about the E3 bolts potential lifespan.
As a point of clarification, I do not believe that Mr. Stoner actually designed the E3 system.
It was mentioned earlier that you can use a standard bolt if necessary. This is NOT advised, as it can damage the bolt and the barrel extension. It will reportedly work in an emergency, but the likelihood of a civilian having to actually test the theory is pretty low. If it breaks, your rifle will be down for a couple of weeks until KAC sends you a replacement. Not really a big deal and as mentioned above, there has not been a single report of a broken E3 bolt in the civilian market since the E3 was introduced. Pretty impressive.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-13, 17:57
Based on what I've sold new ones for in the past, I'd estimate $150.
Most of your questions have been answered, but I'll share my experience.
1) BC is standard
2) I've lost count of the number of KAC lowers I've owned, at least 4 since 2008. All of them worked fine with pmags and my current 2 lowers also work fine with tango down ARC mags.
3) If you are thinking about the SSA, I would advise you to try the KAC first. The current triggers are NiB coated to improve durability and are quite frankly, indistinguishable from the SSA. I have an older KAC Match 2 stage trigger (from a Legacy SR15) that is hands down better than any SSA I've ever owned. If you want a Geisselle, the SSA-E will provide a more noticeable difference in pull weight, but is a little too light for my tastes on a fighting carbine. I use an SSA-E on my precision AR and like it alot for that application. Considering that the KAC trigger comes with the gun, I'd say save your money. Just my opinion, but I don't see the advantage or cost benefit of swapping it out for the SSA. For the record, I am saying that as a Geisselle fan, so take it for what it's worth. They're both good triggers.
Durability would be the main reason I'd want to swap out triggers. Do you know if there is any recommendation on how often to swap out hammer springs (and trigger springs if applicable) in the KAC trigger?
Truthfully I mentioned the Giessele but I'd be good with an ACT trigger.
I don't own a Knight's.
But if I could, I certainly would. Their offerings are probably the pinnacle and most refined iteration of the AR platform in any caliber.
As for the bolt, it is proprietary, but given the cost of ammo that you are shooting through it in order to get anywhere near the point of bolt failure, the extra cost of an E3 bolt is a tiny fraction of your total cost.
Looking at the fact that, theoretically, you're not going to be changing bolts as often as you would otherwise, the extra cost either pays for itself, or ends up actually saving you money in the long run.
Or, at least, that's what you tell the wife!
Here's something to ponder.
Everyone always asks about their bolts lasting or being able to swap.
But have you ever seen or heard of one breaking?
Stoner redesigned the bolt once he came into knights. And it's better than any other bolt out there... Period.
KevinB said they have broken many in the 40-50k with most being suppressed and/or full auto. However Iirc he said they have not broken any under the 20k mark.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-13, 19:16
KevinB said they have broken many in the 40-50k with most being suppressed and/or full auto. However Iirc he said they have not broken any under the 20k mark.
If that is true that is amazing. 1 bolt should last 2 barrels!
If that is true that is amazing. 1 bolt should last 2 barrels!
I imagine that under a normal firing schedule, that is very probable.
KevinB said they have broken many in the 40-50k with most being suppressed and/or full auto. However Iirc he said they have not broken any under the 20k mark.
So from what I understate the KAC barrel has a life span of 10k rounds? That's seems low to me for some reason.
Durability would be the main reason I'd want to swap out triggers. Do you know if there is any recommendation on how often to swap out hammer springs (and trigger springs if applicable) in the KAC trigger?
Truthfully I mentioned the Giessele but I'd be good with an ACT trigger.
I don't think you'll have an issue, especially with the new NiB coated trigger. I have a 5 year old KAC trigger (older design) that has not given me any issues over several thousand rounds. In fact, it's only gotten better.
The reports of durability issues that I've seen have been limited to mostly second hand accounts on mil issued guns. I'm not saying that the issue doesn't exist, but those weapons were likely abused and saw a lot of extremely hard use. It's also possible that an end user may have attempted to adjust the trigger and subsequently screwed it up. The new design increases durability by application of an NiB coating and is non-adjustable, addressing the two most likely failure points.
I think it's important to remember that before Geissele came along, KAC was the ONLY suitable option for a mil issued match trigger. Before Geissele, the KAC 2 stage match trigger was the standard by which all others were judged.
So from what I understate the KAC barrel has a life span of 10k rounds? That's seems low to me for some reason.
What is this based on? I would think it would be 15-20K just like any other HF barrel on the market.
Gray Ghost
07-09-13, 20:30
I've owned both an SR-15 and SCAR 16S.
The SR-15 was very light. I had an early one and if I remember correctly it did require a little break-in, the bolt failed to strip a few rounds off a steel 20rd Colt mag. Also the front rail was canted requiring the windage on the rear sight to be cranked all the way to the right as far as it would go when I was zero'ing the irons.
Besides that it was a great rifle. I ended up selling it later in disgust when an idiotic gunsmith scratched the hell out of the barrel from removing my Triple Tap he installed upside down (with Rockset).
I also carry an M4 at work and while the ambi controls on the lower are nice, it didn't help with my muscle memory much when I was at the range.
After that rifle I bought the SCAR. Very nice rifle too albeit a little "plasticky". Would be very nice as something issued to me but for $2200+ the quality didn't completely feel all there.
The gas piston system was great too, reminded me a lot of my M1A. Very low maintenance rifle and after a day or two at the range cleaning felt optional.
I eventually sold that off as well because I was interested in getting an SBR and if I cut the barrel down on that I'd be stuck with it for good because nobody has come out with an aftermarket short barrel for it yet.
Razorhunter
07-09-13, 20:51
Ive owned several SR15's, and two SCARS, and I would also choose the Knights. I totally agree that while the SCAR's gas system is cool, FN screwed several key factors on that gun up. The first thing I posted online when the SCAR came out, was how poorly designed the front sight was. There's a reason why almost instantly Troy invested in manufacturing a solution to that very issue, and now you see FN addressed it as well on the newest SCAR iteration, the FNAC, I believe it is called. I won't get into the selector switch or the stock. Don't get me wrong though, the SCAR is worth owning IMO, if you already own several other key carbines/rifles first, most importantly, an SR15...
Anyhow, if the SR15 wasn't on the market, I would find a way to own a BCM Jack. Either buy one secondhand, build a clone, or wait for Paul to produce more.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-13, 21:28
Ive owned several SR15's, and two SCARS, and I would also choose the Knights. I totally agree that while the SCAR's gas system is cool, FN screwed several key factors on that gun up. The first thing I posted online when the SCAR came out, was how poorly designed the front sight was. There's a reason why almost instantly Troy invested in manufacturing a solution to that very issue, and now you see FN addressed it as well on the newest SCAR iteration, the FNAC, I believe it is called. I won't get into the selector switch or the stock. Don't get me wrong though, the SCAR is worth owning IMO, if you already own several other key carbines/rifles first, most importantly, an SR15...
Anyhow, if the SR15 wasn't on the market, I would find a way to own a BCM Jack. Either buy one secondhand, build a clone, or wait for Paul to produce more.
You just hit the major complaint I have about my SCAR 17s. With modern shooting styles that fold down front sight is kind of in the way. Decent idea and all, but they would have been better giving end users more flexibility, but it is what it is.
PatrioticDisorder
07-09-13, 21:32
I don't think you'll have an issue, especially with the new NiB coated trigger. I have a 5 year old KAC trigger (older design) that has not given me any issues over several thousand rounds. In fact, it's only gotten better.
The reports of durability issues that I've seen have been limited to mostly second hand accounts on mil issued guns. I'm not saying that the issue doesn't exist, but those weapons were likely abused and saw a lot of extremely hard use. It's also possible that an end user may have attempted to adjust the trigger and subsequently screwed it up. The new design increases durability by application of an NiB coating and is non-adjustable, addressing the two most likely failure points.
I think it's important to remember that before Geissele came along, KAC was the ONLY suitable option for a mil issued match trigger. Before Geissele, the KAC 2 stage match trigger was the standard by which all others were judged.
Interesting, how long ago did the design change? Also, do you happen to know what the recommended maintenance schedule is with the KAC trigger (how often to replace hammer spring, etc.)?
One more potential issue, I have a ton of Hornady 75gr. TAP .223, this is the ammo I'd be using to zero the rifle in with. I know there was early reports of SR-15s not running well with .223 vs. 5.56, is this still an issue?
The SR15 is the pinnacle of AR carbines. It's everything the shorty AR is supposed to be and nothing that it isn't. FWIW, I run my SR upper on a Colt lower with "the block" and thus had to swap the full auto carrier with a semi carrier. No problems.
What is this based on? I would think it would be 15-20K just like any other HF barrel on the market.
I can across a thread comparing the SR15 to a larue rifle and it seemed to be a confirmed issue. I did some searching and can't find any more info about it.
Gray Ghost
07-09-13, 22:27
I won't get into the selector switch or the stock.
Yeah you're right about the selector switch on the SCAR too. Never felt very ergonomic.
Interesting, how long ago did the design change? Also, do you happen to know what the recommended maintenance schedule is with the KAC trigger (how often to replace hammer spring, etc.)?
One more potential issue, I have a ton of Hornady 75gr. TAP .223, this is the ammo I'd be using to zero the rifle in with. I know there was early reports of SR-15s not running well with .223 vs. 5.56, is this still an issue?
The trigger design changed within the last 12 months.
Hornady Tap and Hornady Tap Practice (steel cased) runs fine in all of the SR15's I've owned. PMC & Federal bulk pack 223 also run without issue.
I can across a thread comparing the SR15 to a larue rifle and it seemed to be a confirmed issue. I did some searching and can't find any more info about it.
Never heard that one before. Sort of hard to believe, actually. KAC uses a hammer forged chrome lined barrel. I wouldn't expect it to perform any differently than other similar barrels on the market. I know one former loyal KAC fan that converted to a rabid Larue fan and seemed hell bent on smearing the SR15 at every opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of his old threads. Sometimes, you have to consider the source. If you find the thread, send me a link. I'd like to read it.
Never heard that one before. Sort of hard to believe, actually. KAC uses a hammer forged chrome lined barrel. I wouldn't expect it to perform any differently than other similar barrels on the market. I know one former loyal KAC fan that converted to a rabid Larue fan and seemed hell bent on smearing the SR15 at every opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of his old threads. Sometimes, you have to consider the source. If you find the thread, send me a link. I'd like to read it.
Last I saw he was selling all his Larues to put money back into photography.
For some people, its just a gear thing and they're quite fickle about their choices.
Last I saw he was selling all his Larues to put money back into photography.
For some people, its just a gear thing and they're quite fickle about their choices.
I think he actually sold ALL of his guns and gear & I think you're right about the whole gear whore thing.
One more potential issue, I have a ton of Hornady 75gr. TAP .223, this is the ammo I'd be using to zero the rifle in with. I know there was early reports of SR-15s not running well with .223 vs. 5.56, is this still an issue?
Hornady tap 75 .223 shouldnt be a problem. A couple of yrs ago I ran 1000 rds thru one of my sr-15s 16" (not mod 1) both suppressed and not with zero problems. Since the beginning of the year I've run close to the same amount of BHA 77 gr .223 thru a KAC 14.5 and an 11.5. No problems. Very smooth.
Voodoo_Man
07-10-13, 07:05
This thread needs pix.
http://i.imgur.com/3qfd5.jpg
flanntastic
07-10-13, 08:31
I own both the KAC and the SCAR, although I love my SCAR, the AR platform will always be my favorite.
The only things i changed out on my KAC was to a Geissele SDE and a BADASS safety, and those were only to keep all my lowers the same.
The KAC safety sold for $50 when I sold it and the trigger $145.
I have never had a mag problem in it.
buy one, you won't be sorry
PatrioticDisorder
07-10-13, 08:41
I own both the KAC and the SCAR, although I love my SCAR, the AR platform will always be my favorite.
The only things i changed out on my KAC was to a Geissele SDE and a BADASS safety, and those were only to keep all my lowers the same.
The KAC safety sold for $50 when I sold it and the trigger $145.
I have never had a mag problem in it.
buy one, you won't be sorry
What didn't you like about the KAC safety? And ya, I agree I love the AR-15 platform, I bought a SCAR 17s but that is because I don't share the same love for the AR-10 platform but that is a whole other topic. Only reason I was considering the SCAR 16s is because I own a 17s, but the more I think about it, the less I want a 16s and the more I want a high end AR.
flanntastic
07-10-13, 08:43
I prefer the short lever from the BADASS on the right side, I do like to use the right side safety but the KAC is longer and rubs my trigger finger
I prefer the short lever from the BADASS on the right side, I do like to use the right side safety but the KAC is longer and rubs my trigger finger
The Mod1 comes with a shaved down lever on the right hand side. I've switched my other lowers to BADASS levers, but didn't see the need on my Mod1. Every KAC lower I've owned had a very positive selector function, very smooth and snappy.
Regarding your earlier question about trigger maintenance, I don't see a reason that it would be any different from any other trigger. Never really thought about it actually.
Never heard that one before. Sort of hard to believe, actually. KAC uses a hammer forged chrome lined barrel. I wouldn't expect it to perform any differently than other similar barrels on the market. I know one former loyal KAC fan that converted to a rabid Larue fan and seemed hell bent on smearing the SR15 at every opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of his old threads. Sometimes, you have to consider the source. If you find the thread, send me a link. I'd like to read it.
I have just under 15K rounds through my SR15 and it's still grouping the same as it did from the very start.
I've also only had one malfunction to date and that could have possibly been a mag or ammo issue. It was during an EAG Carbine 2 class and it was on day three. Rifle was never cleaned throughout the class and only a few drops of oil were put on the BCG at the beginning of each day.
I also owned a SCAR 16S and ended up selling it cause I personally felt it didn't offer any benefits over any of my DI AR's. Out of all the AR's I own or have owned, the SR15 would definitely be one of my top choices.
My only complaint with my SR15 is that it doesn't like most steel cased stuff like Tula or Wolf, but in reality that's pretty much a non issue. I'm completely happy with it, and I'd buy another one.
PatrioticDisorder
07-10-13, 10:59
My only complaint with my SR15 is that it doesn't like most steel cased stuff like Tula or Wolf, but in reality that's pretty much a non issue. I'm completely happy with it, and I'd buy another one.
I've never been a fan of Tula or Wolf and my other AR-15 is a DDM4 and from what I've read/heard, the DDM4s do not like Wolf or Tula either so that's a non-issue for me as well.
I've never been a fan of Tula or Wolf and my other AR-15 is a DDM4 and from what I've read/heard, the DDM4s do not like Wolf or Tula either so that's a non-issue for me as well.
You better hope more than junk ammo is availible during a prolonged civil unrest...;)
PatrioticDisorder
07-10-13, 11:30
You better hope more than junk ammo is availible during a prolonged civil unrest...;)
That is why it's always advisable to stay socked up, my personal minimum is 1k rounds per rifle, with a goal of 5k rounds although I wouldn't complain if I was able to get to 10k rounds per rifle. :lol:
My only complaint with my SR15 is that it doesn't like most steel cased stuff like Tula or Wolf, but in reality that's pretty much a non issue. I'm completely happy with it, and I'd buy another one.
Both of mine eat wolf like a champ. Tula has caused a very small amount of malfs.
Both of mine eat wolf like a champ. Tula has caused a very small amount of malfs.
I need to get my hands on some Wolf to see if it will run in my Mod1. I don't have any issues with brass cased 223.
flanntastic
07-10-13, 19:49
Mine eats wolf like M&Ms
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Boba Fett v2
07-11-13, 00:20
My only complaint with my SR15 is that it doesn't like most steel cased stuff like Tula or Wolf, but in reality that's pretty much a non issue. I'm completely happy with it, and I'd buy another one.
Fed my SR-15 a few hundred rounds of cheap Herters steel case ammo (re-branded Tulammo) and it performed flawlessly without a single hiccup.
Fed my SR-15 a few hundred rounds of cheap Herters steel case ammo (re-branded Tulammo) and it performed flawlessly without a single hiccup.
You cannot do better than flawlessly / no hiccup...:lol:
I need to get my hands on some Wolf to see if it will run in my Mod1. I don't have any issues with brass cased 223.
Same here-- no issues with any of my KAC with BHA .223, tap .223, Pmc .223, mk262 mod 1 and xm193.
But I just saw my sr-16 upper malfunction on Tula (a friend was running a mag of his ammo thru my rifle). Also possible sr-16 has slightly different gas port size and may like that crappy ammo less. No idea.
That was the first malf I've had with one of my KAC since I picked up my first sr-15 in 08 (and importantly it didn't malf on me).
What kind of accuracy do Sr-15s with chf barrels get?
What kind of accuracy do Sr-15s with chf barrels get?
General consensus is 1 moa, but KAC won't gaurantee it. They say if it really shoots over 2moa (I think) with quality ammo to send it back and they'll take a look.
PatrioticDisorder
07-11-13, 07:35
General consensus is 1 moa, but KAC won't gaurantee it. They say if it really shoots over 2moa (I think) with quality ammo to send it back and they'll take a look.
I've read on this very forum a Knights rep saying the SR-15 is a 1.5ish MOA rifle. I'm fine with this, that kind of accuracy is more than sufficient for me and the role the rifle was intended for (a light weight, über reliable rifle).
I've read on this very forum a Knights rep saying the SR-15 is a 1.5ish MOA rifle. I'm fine with this, that kind of accuracy is more than sufficient for me and the role the rifle was intended for (a light weight, über reliable rifle).
1.5 moa seems to be the exception, but still acceptable. Mine have been 1-1.25 moa guns.
Magic_Salad0892
07-11-13, 08:18
1.5 moa seems to be the exception, but still acceptable. Mine have been 1-1.25 moa guns.
When I had my old ones cut to 11.1'', I know for a fact that one of 'em did a .9'' 10 shot group.
Just needed a better crown than they get from factory, match ammo, and the can may have helped with accuracy too.
PatrioticDisorder
07-11-13, 08:21
1.5 moa seems to be the exception, but still acceptable. Mine have been 1-1.25 moa guns.
If I buy one (and I'm strongly leaning that way) and it shoots 1-1.25 MOA with 75gr. Hornady TAP, I'll be a very happy shooter!
If I buy one (and I'm strongly leaning that way) and it shoots 1-1.25 MOA with 75gr. Hornady TAP, I'll be a very happy shooter!
I've gotten accuracy in that range with Mk262, Southwest 75, 69 & 77 gr loads and Hornady 55 gr ballistic tip & Tap Practice 75gr.
Every time I read a thread like this it makes me want an SR-15 more and more.
Every time I read a thread like this it makes me want an SR-15 more and more.
What we haven't talked about is just how smooth and minimal the recoil impulse actually is. With a BCM comp or Battle Comp, they are extremely controllable.
What we haven't talked about is just how smooth and minimal the recoil impulse actually is. With a BCM comp or Battle Comp, they are extremely controllable.
How do they differ if at all from a standard mid length 16" ?
What are the factors involved with the different recoil impulse?
Edit: It oddly quoted multiple things.
What we haven't talked about is just how smooth and minimal the recoil impulse actually is. With a BCM comp or Battle Comp, they are extremely controllable.
MAMS is very nice too. A bit loud on 11.5 but very nice on 14.5.
What we haven't talked about is just how smooth and minimal the recoil impulse actually is. With a BCM comp or Battle Comp, they are extremely controllable.
3t is where its at, although Id like to try a MAMS...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/Guns/DSC01866.jpg
Same 3t 10k+ rounds later on my 11.5" SBR upper...its not in the white anymore.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/Guns/DSC05083_zpsa141c035.jpg
As for buying a SR15E3, I don't see why anyone would spend their money anywhere else. After owning one I would never feel comfortable buying another complete AR from another manufacturer.
How do they differ if at all from a standard mid length 16" ?
What are the factors involved with the different recoil impulse?
Edit: It oddly quoted multiple things.
In my experience, compared to a Noveske, Daniel Defense and BCM 16 middies, the recoil is a little less sharp. Not that a standard midlength has bad recoil at all, but the SR15 is just a little smoother, more similar to a rifle length gun. Add a comp, and the muzzle just bounces, without really leaving center mass. The reason for this is primarily due to the intermediate length gas system. It should be noted that this is achieved with a standard carbine spring and either a CAR or H buffer, versus a H or H2 in a standard 16" midlength. On the other hand, you can get similar behavior out of a 16" midlength by experimenting with the buffer setup. The SR15 just runs that way without really having to tune the buffer setup any further. The 14.5 midlength operates in a similar fashion by reducing the dwell time.
The real advantage to the SR15 is that you get this kind of tuned performance out of the box AND you get the improved lifespan of the E3 bolt, ambi controls, excellent trigger, KAC sights, SOPMOD stock, etc all in one package.
MAMS is very nice too. A bit loud on 11.5 but very nice on 14.5.
I'd really like to try out the MAMS, but for the money, I've stuck with the BC & BCM comps. They are both louder on my 11.5", but what isn't? ;)
PatrioticDisorder
07-11-13, 10:44
Anyone know if KAC has any plans to release the URX 4 on SR-15s anytime in the near future?
I'd really like to try out the MAMS, but for the money, I've stuck with the BC & BCM comps. They are both louder on my 11.5", but what isn't? ;)
MAMS with the KAC Qdc suppressor :D (although I can't get my hands on the QDC).
Anyone know if KAC has any plans to release the URX 4 on SR-15s anytime in the near future?
It is planned for future release, but not anytime soon. Maybe next year? It was supposed to be sooner, but the 2013 panic has pushed the release date back due to the number of backorders for current models and govt contracts needing fulfillment.
MAMS with the KAC Qdc suppressor :D (although I can't get my hands on the QDC).
If I was looking at the QDC, the MAMS would be an absolute no brainer. That would be an awesome setup. I was able to try out the QDC prototypes at the 2010 Silencer Shoot and the QDC mounting system was pretty impressive.
What we haven't talked about is just how smooth and minimal the recoil impulse actually is. With a BCM comp or Battle Comp, they are extremely controllable.
I remember reading some reports of people putting Vltor A5 setups on their SR-15's, but it's always been my understanding that the A5 setup would be of very little benefit on an SR-15 due to its intermediate gas system.
I remember reading some reports of people putting Vltor A5 setups on their SR-15's, but it's always been my understanding that the A5 setup would be of very little benefit on an SR-15 due to its intermediate gas system.
I had the A5 on my last one and it felt slightly smoother, however this could have just been the mental awareness with a new gadget.
I had the A5 on my last one and it felt slightly smoother, however this could have just been the mental awareness with a new gadget.
Do you think it was a worthwhile upgrade or not worth the expense on this particular rifle?
AIM Surplus just got some SR15 Mod1's in stock for $2050 & free shipping. What are you guys waiting on?! :-D
They also have the 14.5 SR15 SBR upper for $1800.
Do you think it was a worthwhile upgrade or not worth the expense on this particular rifle?
I don't think it's worth the expense. I wouldn't do it again and I'm planning on using the lower (one on the right) for a different build.
http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a578/hjmpanzr/SAM_2247_zps915137a3.jpg (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/hjmpanzr/media/SAM_2247_zps915137a3.jpg.html)
AIM Surplus just got some SR15 Mod1's in stock for $2050 & free shipping. What are you guys waiting on?! :-D
They also have the 14.5 SR15 SBR upper for $1800.
Nice. If I had about $2038 more I'd jump all over one. :eek:
I don't think it's worth the expense. I wouldn't do it again and I'm planning on using the lower (one on the right) for a different build.
I appreciate the follow up. I don't doubt the benefits of the A5 in general (and even have one on my middy), I just wasn't sure how much the SR-15 would benefit from it.
i see quite a few SR-15 uppers in the EE and was wondering if people just arent liking them? im trying to decide between an SR and an MK12 upper for a precision 5.56 and could use some experienced advice
AIM Surplus just got some SR15 Mod1's in stock for $2050 & free shipping. What are you guys waiting on?! :-D
They also have the 14.5 SR15 SBR upper for $1800.
Thanks for the tip! My wallet is quite a bit lighter now...
i see quite a few SR-15 uppers in the EE and was wondering if people just arent liking them? im trying to decide between an SR and an MK12 upper for a precision 5.56 and could use some experienced advice
Precision? KAC LPR or Mk12 over the SR15, no question.
AIM Surplus just got some SR15 Mod1's in stock for $2050 & free shipping. What are you guys waiting on?! :-D
They also have the 14.5 SR15 SBR upper for $1800.
Is that "normal" going rate or is that still elevated ban scare pricing?
I never really looked into KAC offerings before.
Is that "normal" going rate or is that still elevated ban scare pricing?
I never really looked into KAC offerings before.
That's pretty much the going rate for the 14.5" upper. The mod 1 16" upper is $300-$400 less.
Is that "normal" going rate or is that still elevated ban scare pricing?
I never really looked into KAC offerings before.
I bought my mod1 in jan for 1999 from Lawmans/Shooters Supply. I didnt get the run until march, though.
Boba Fett v2
07-11-13, 23:36
3t is where its at, although Id like to try a MAMS...
The MAMS is definitely on my to-buy list. Might be a couple months before they're back in stock though.
Well... After reading all your replies about your SR-15's loving steel, I went out and ran a bunch of Tula today and it didn't skip a beat :confused:
Who knows, maybe I was just having a magazine issue or something and was being innatentive. Either way, the SR-15's are insanely smooth and I would gladly buy another if I weren't so damn poor.
Is that "normal" going rate or is that still elevated ban scare pricing?
I never really looked into KAC offerings before.
Those are basically pre-panic prices.
MSRP is $2200 on the Mod 1.
The MAMS is definitely on my to-buy list. Might be a couple months before they're back in stock though.
I want one for my SCAR 16 SBR, a QDC CQB 762 can is also on my short list when they hit distributors.
PatrioticDisorder
07-12-13, 08:07
I want one for my SCAR 16 SBR, a QDC CQB 762 can is also on my short list when they hit distributors.
What is the MSRP going to be on the MAMS?
What is the MSRP going to be on the MAMS?
For 556 its about $300 and for 762 its about $400.
Boba Fett v2
07-12-13, 09:47
What is the MSRP going to be on the MAMS?
$299 is the typical going rate for the 5.56 MAMS right now, and that's if you can find them in stock. Operation Parts seems to have the best price I've found, unless you qualify for military/LEO pricing and order direct from KAC.
I purchased my MOD1 at MSRP post-Newtown. No regrets. I realize I could have got it cheaper when the panic died down, but at the time there didn't seem to be an end in sight, so I jumped at the chance when the opportunity presented itself.
How does the purpose of the MAMS differ from the Triple Tap?
How does the purpose of the MAMS differ from the Triple Tap?
KAC's new suppressors coming out will mount on the MAMS but not on the 3T.
Boba Fett v2
07-12-13, 12:55
How does the purpose of the MAMS differ from the Triple Tap?
In terms of functionality it should perform just as good as the 3T. As stated above they are the next generation mounts for KAC's newest line of suppressors.
Do you think it was a worthwhile upgrade or not worth the expense on this particular rifle?
If Ii was just shooting the SR15 upper I do not see it as a necessary upgrade, however with that particular lower I was swapping uppers often so the advantages of the A5 were beneficial.
If Ii was just shooting the SR15 upper I do not see it as a necessary upgrade, however with that particular lower I was swapping uppers often so the advantages of the A5 were beneficial.
I shot my SR15 bone stock when I first got it, and then added a battlecomp and an A5 kit, and what a difference. Muzzle rise is greatly decreased, as is recoil. Haven't had one problem with reliability yet.
Is it necessary? Probably not, but it really makes an excellent rifle shine.
Army Chief
07-12-13, 16:56
I added a BattleComp as well (and substituted the A2 grip for a KAC PDW grip), but didn't really feel the need to go any farther. The rifle really is one of those rare examples of a ready-to-go package, right out of the box.
AC
Have one just sitting here that hasn't been shot. Meant to last wknd. but ended up not being able to go. Hopefully this wknd. A MAMS is on the list as is a QDC. Both hard to find right now.
In case no one visits the "Where Can I Get It" thread, AIM Surplus has a few SR15s for a good price.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1KA30351&utm_source=AIM+Surplus+Main+List&utm_campaign=fbc7337347-07112013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6870497a6a-fbc7337347-18626197
I added a BattleComp as well (and substituted the A2 grip for a KAC PDW grip), but didn't really feel the need to go any farther. The rifle really is one of those rare examples of a ready-to-go package, right out of the box.
AC
I shot my SR15 bone stock when I first got it, and then added a battlecomp and an A5 kit, and what a difference. Muzzle rise is greatly decreased, as is recoil. Haven't had one problem with reliability yet.
Is it necessary? Probably not, but it really makes an excellent rifle shine.
I threw a Griffin Armament Flash Comp on both of mine, and it's like shooting a laser beam. The A5 does slightly help, i just don't know if I would notice it if I wasn't shooting both side by side.
I agree AC, out of the box there is very little one can do to improve one these rifles. Grip, Muzzle Device, and Charging Handle is about all can do.
P.S. Keep up the fight, you are in our prayers.
Boba Fett v2
07-12-13, 19:11
I threw a Griffin Armament Flash Comp on both of mine, and it's like shooting a laser beam. The A5 does slightly help, i just don't know if I would notice it if I wasn't shooting both side by side.
I agree AC, out of the box there is very little one can do to improve one these rifles. Grip, Muzzle Device, and Charging Handle is about all can do.
And that's the thing. Not sure if I'd invest in a kit that would only give me a negligible edge in performance, especially if it was only slightly noticeable. I think adding a comp would yield more tangible and noticeable results, but other than that, as stated, the rifle is pretty much battle ready out of the box requiring very little or no modification. All that's really required is an optic of your choice if not using irons. The SR-15 is arguably as good as it gets straight from the factory. Yes, I'm drinking the KAC Kool-Aid.
Army Chief
07-12-13, 19:46
Guess I forgot to mention that I also added a Raptor (CH). From the left-handed rifleman's perspective, an SR with these basic mods is just about as good as it gets.
AC
Boba Fett v2
07-12-13, 20:15
Guess I forgot to mention that I also added a Raptor (CH). From the left-handed rifleman's perspective, an SR with these basic mods is just about as good as it gets.
AC
I want to add the GF MODA44 myself. If anything just to make it a more complete ambidextrious system.
PatrioticDisorder
07-12-13, 20:20
Guess I forgot to mention that I also added a Raptor (CH). From the left-handed rifleman's perspective, an SR with these basic mods is just about as good as it gets.
AC
How do you like the Raptor vs. the BCM Gunfighter?
Army Chief
07-12-13, 20:23
How do you like the Raptor vs. the BCM Gunfighter?
I am completely sold on the Raptor concept, design and quality of fabrication; however, I also have a high regard for BCM kit. I just haven't seen or used the BCM, as I was previously using PRI Gasbusters for the most part.
Likely a win-win.
AC
Oh nevermind, someone already posted information regarding aimsurplus.
Boba Fett v2
07-12-13, 20:34
I am completely sold on the Raptor concept, design and quality of fabrication; however, I also have a high regard for BCM kit. I just haven't seen or used the BCM, as I was previously using PRI Gasbusters for the most part.
Likely a win-win.
AC
I really dig the BCM CHs, but I've had it pinch me on more than one occaision when racking the bolt back. Mostly carelessness on my part. By design, it does appear that the RA Raptor is less likely to do that. Interested in hearing your feedback on that. I will certainly weigh both options before I make a final decision.
TurretGunner
07-12-13, 23:20
Was browsing around and just saw that aim has 11 MOD 1's in stock right now.
Price ain't too bad either
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1KA30351
Was browsing around and just saw that aim has 11 MOD 1's in stock right now.
Price ain't too bad either
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1KA30351
Just curious how you know how many they have in stock.
Just curious how you know how many they have in stock.
Try to add more than they have in stock and it tells you.
Says 9 in stock now.
Try to add more than they have in stock and it tells you.
Says 9 in stock now.
Oh Ok. LOL I must have looked at the page for 15 minutes thinking I was overlooking it somewhere.
I have been back and forth a dozen times on this rifle.
I don't mind the price. I carry a Les Baer while in CONUS.... (Obviously disarmed the other half of my life while in the PRC)
I just have an issue with the proprietary bolt and chamber lugs...
I am sure the E3 is a better design - but I already have 3 BCM bolts and 2 spare BCM Bolt Carriers. Having to then adapt and have a different bolt for 1 particular rifle... Well it just gives me the what ifs too much.
What am I gaining over my current 6920 setup - Obviously the best rifle in an AR pattern available - but again with the above caveat.
But here I am looking at the one on AIM and hovering my trackpad over "checkout".... been here before and cant make the click.
wetidlerjr
07-14-13, 01:37
I have been back and forth a dozen times on this rifle.
I don't mind the price. I carry a Les Baer while in CONUS.... (Obviously disarmed the other half of my life while in the PRC) I just have an issue with the proprietary bolt and chamber lugs... I am sure the E3 is a better design - but I already have 3 BCM bolts and 2 spare BCM Bolt Carriers. Having to then adapt and have a different bolt for 1 particular rifle... Well it just gives me the what ifs too much. What am I gaining over my current 6920 setup - Obviously the best rifle in an AR pattern available - but again with the above caveat. But here I am looking at the one on AIM and hovering my trackpad over "checkout".... been here before and cant make the click.
I agree. I have 3 BCMs and a BCM lower on my 22LR AR. I have the necessary spares. Like you, I am sure it's a great rifle but I just can't justify it.
Boba Fett v2
07-14-13, 03:09
I was a little concerned over the proprietary bolt initially, and although not optimal, a standard bolt would work in a pinch. Overall, I think the pros far outweigh the cons here. If I had a reason to doubt the durability of the proprietary mechanisms I'd be swayed to consider another option as well. However, the E3 bolt is meant to be an evolution of a proven concept. The way I look at it, if concerned over a potential bolt breakage, why not invest in a system that has so far proven to be very reliable, proprietary or otherwise? Though the jury may still be out, there aren't any known reliability issues with the E3 as far as I'm tracking. Just do it!
I have been back and forth a dozen times on this rifle.
I don't mind the price. I carry a Les Baer while in CONUS.... (Obviously disarmed the other half of my life while in the PRC)
I just have an issue with the proprietary bolt and chamber lugs...
I am sure the E3 is a better design - but I already have 3 BCM bolts and 2 spare BCM Bolt Carriers. Having to then adapt and have a different bolt for 1 particular rifle... Well it just gives me the what ifs too much.
What am I gaining over my current 6920 setup - Obviously the best rifle in an AR pattern available - but again with the above caveat.
But here I am looking at the one on AIM and hovering my trackpad over "checkout".... been here before and cant make the click.
Just do it. You know you want it.
I have a 6920 as well but snagged one of these a couple weeks ago. I was fortunate to be looking at the right time to get it for a couple hundred less than AIM has them for right now. It was pure luck and just sitting on Gunbroker of all places.
I love my 6920 but this rifle is the real deal.
MichaelVain
07-14-13, 07:44
It seems one of the things that plagues some of us is the overthinking when deciding whether to buy a particular rifle.
When I bought my first SR15 (which happened to be my first DI AR15), I was poring over ever post about it on here on M4C (I always take advice and use the Search function). What finally sold me was the overwhelming positive recommendations from a large swatch of the membership, from current soldiers, to former soldiers, contractors, and of course, recreational shooters.
I hope you pick one up.
I think a lot of people worry about worst case scenarios too much. There are many benefits to the kac system that, in my opinion, far outweigh the very remote chance of bolt breakage. As mentioned before, you can use a standard bolt if you have to, but really, just buy a second E3 bolt and you're set for life and most likely the lives of whoever gets the gun when you're gone.
I think the SR15 has too many great features to pass over because a few of the parts aren't standard.
I have been back and forth a dozen times on this rifle.
I don't mind the price. I carry a Les Baer while in CONUS.... (Obviously disarmed the other half of my life while in the PRC)
I just have an issue with the proprietary bolt and chamber lugs...
I am sure the E3 is a better design - but I already have 3 BCM bolts and 2 spare BCM Bolt Carriers. Having to then adapt and have a different bolt for 1 particular rifle... Well it just gives me the what ifs too much.
What am I gaining over my current 6920 setup - Obviously the best rifle in an AR pattern available - but again with the above caveat.
But here I am looking at the one on AIM and hovering my trackpad over "checkout".... been here before and cant make the click.
I have owned numerous rifles, uppers and lowers in the AR platform. Too many to even try to count. Having said that, of all the ones I wish I hadn't sold, the SR15 is the one. I plan to own another one at some point.
TurretGunner
07-14-13, 12:51
I have owned numerous rifles, uppers and lowers in the AR platform. Too many to even try to count. Having said that, of all the ones I wish I hadn't sold, the SR15 is the one. I plan to own another one at some point.
Same, Its the pinancle of the AR15 system.
And I have yet to even hear of a E3 bolt breaking. I'm sure one had to somewhere, but I would worry about a bent buffer tube or broken gas system before A bolt related failure.
PatrioticDisorder
07-14-13, 15:25
I was a little concerned over the proprietary bolt initially, and although not optimal, a standard bolt would work in a pinch. Overall, I think the pros far outweigh the cons here. If I had a reason to doubt the durability of the proprietary mechanisms I'd be swayed to consider another option as well. However, the E3 bolt is meant to be an evolution of a proven concept. The way I look at it, if concerned over a potential bolt breakage, why not invest in a system that has so far proven to be very reliable, proprietary or otherwise? Though the jury may still be out, there aren't any known reliability issues with the E3 as far as I'm tracking. Just do it!
The E3 bolt is what attracts me to the SR-15. That said, I wonder if the LMT enhanced bolt may be just as good of an option at less than 1/2 the cost. Bolt life is supposed to be significantly enhanced (20,000+ rounds) and it will run in a standard AR-15. I'm thinking about throwing one in my DDM4. Kinda makes me give the SR-15 second thoughts, just thinking out loud...
I stopped in a local shop today that had an SR-15 in stock for $1999. It was almost sickening that I can't afford that right now. I'm gonna have to look around here and see what I can put up for sale.....
I had enough time to get out and shoot my SR-15 today.
Set up to do a 25m zero and the rifle was dead on. Didn't have to change anything. Dunno if that is common or not but surprised me.
The rifle is an absolute pleasure to shoot. My friends were drooling all over it.
If anyone is on the fence jump over and buy it.
Gun Gallery in Jacksonville, FL has the Mod 1 for $2000. Give Neil a call and he will hook you up. This is where I bought mine from several years ago.
Gun Gallery in Jacksonville, FL has the Mod 1 for $2000. Give Neil a call and he will hook you up. This is where I bought mine from several years ago.
This is the same one I looked at in my post above.
Boba Fett v2
07-15-13, 06:49
I stopped in a local shop today that had an SR-15 in stock for $1999. It was almost sickening that I can't afford that right now. I'm gonna have to look around here and see what I can put up for sale.....
If you're willing to pay MSRP you might want to check out Darc Ops Armory on Gunbroker. They'll work out a payment plan with you and will accept other firearms as partial trades. They gave me $1300 credit towards my trade-in, and I paid off the remainder in two payments. No, at MSRP it's not the best price out there, but I had to consider that it was still during the panic and I was at least able to get a good trade-in value for the gun. The folks there are great to deal with. No affiliation: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=354169608
Boba Fett v2
07-15-13, 07:28
The E3 bolt is what attracts me to the SR-15. That said, I wonder if the LMT enhanced bolt may be just as good of an option at less than 1/2 the cost. Bolt life is supposed to be significantly enhanced (20,000+ rounds) and it will run in a standard AR-15. I'm thinking about throwing one in my DDM4. Kinda makes me give the SR-15 second thoughts, just thinking out loud...
I don't think you could go wrong either way. But for me there's just something about having the KAC roll mark on the lower receiver. Makes me happy.
If you're willing to pay MSRP you might want to check out Darc Ops Armory on Gunbroker. They'll work out a payment plan with you and will accept other firearms as partial trades. They gave me $1300 credit towards my trade-in, and I paid off the remainder in two payments. No, at MSRP it's not the best price out there, but I had to consider that it was still during the panic and I was at least able to get a good trade-in value for the gun. The folks there are great to deal with. No affiliation: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=354169608
Thanks very much for the information. I'll look into it.
Tombstone Tactical $1899
http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/knights-armament/30351-sr-15-e3-mod-1-rifle-556mm-16in-30rd-black/
PatrioticDisorder
07-15-13, 13:38
Tombstone Tactical $1899
http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/knights-armament/30351-sr-15-e3-mod-1-rifle-556mm-16in-30rd-black/
Now we're starting to get into the price range where an SR-15 is a no brainer!
That's a fantastic deal on a Mod1.
MichaelVain
07-15-13, 13:50
If you're in the market for one, there's really no reason to not buy it at that price.
Gun Gallery in Jacksonville, FL has the Mod 1 for $2000. Give Neil a call and he will hook you up. This is where I bought mine from several years ago.
This is my LGS and this is my go to shop..They currently have Mod 1's in stock and the only reason I know is cause I helped unload a pallet of them :D
This is my LGS and this is my go to shop..They currently have Mod 1's in stock and the only reason I know is cause I helped unload a pallet of them :D
This goes a long way towards explaining your enviable collection! :D
PatrioticDisorder
07-17-13, 20:43
Tombstone Tactical $1899
http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/knights-armament/30351-sr-15-e3-mod-1-rifle-556mm-16in-30rd-black/
Just when I was leaning towards buying one, they jacked their prices up.... That's a buzz killer.
Just when I was leaning towards buying one, they jacked their prices up.... That's a buzz killer.
The moral of the story would be... don't think, just buy?
The moral of the story would be... don't think, just buy?
Yup. Walked into LGS yesterday (im new to the area) only to behold one KAC 11.5 SBR (with the 3.1) for $350 less than I've seen them online and no wait for form 3 between dealers. I walked out with the upper and my form 4 to be mailed today. Now my KAC 11.5 (URX 3) is no longer lonely. I likes me to have two of each model.
Now just have to wait for lower to clear ATF...
PatrioticDisorder
07-18-13, 09:21
The moral of the story would be... don't think, just buy?
I feel no urgency, I'd rather sit and see what the market bears out. If I can't find one for that price again, maybe I'd just be better of buying a couple more DDM4s for a little bit more than what I'd spend on 1 KAC.
MichaelVain
07-18-13, 09:33
Complete DDM4's are about 1/2 the cost of KAC rifles?
PatrioticDisorder
07-18-13, 09:35
Complete DDM4's are about 1/2 the cost of KAC rifles?
paid $1,330 for my DDM4V1, V5s could have been had for slightly less and V7s for even less than that at the time I picked mine up back in May. So ya, if I bought a V5 & V7 you're talking $2,500ish for 2 rifles vs. $2,000 for 1 rifle. Sounds silly, but that $100 less to make it $1,900 makes a big difference to me when making a value judgment.
MichaelVain
07-18-13, 10:32
paid $1,330 for my DDM4V1, V5s could have been had for slightly less and V7s for even less than that at the time I picked mine up back in May. So ya, if I bought a V5 & V7 you're talking $2,500ish for 2 rifles vs. $2,000 for 1 rifle. Sounds silly, but that $100 less to make it $1,900 makes a big difference to me when making a value judgment.
I think one of the things that sometimes gets lost in these comparisons is what you get with an SR15 package.
2 stage trigger: $350
SOPMOD stock: $200 - $75 (Magpul stock)
Ambi fire controls: $60
Ambi Bolt release: $30
Add up all those parts and we're at about $550.
The DD V5/V7 don't seem to come with sights.
Rear KAC micro flip sight: $140
Front Low Pro flip sights: $150
Add the sights into the mix and you're at about $850.
If you take your $1250 DD rifle and add that $850, you're at the cost of an SR15 Mod1.
This not taking into consideration the value of the proprietary bolt or gas system.
This is why it's my opinion that the SR15 is not only a great rifle, but economically, is a very good value when compared to what you get from other manufacturers.
PatrioticDisorder
07-18-13, 10:44
I think one of the things that sometimes gets lost in these comparisons is what you get with an SR15 package.
2 stage trigger: $350
SOPMOD stock: $200 - $75 (Magpul stock)
Ambi fire controls: $60
Ambi Bolt release: $30
Add up all those parts and we're at about $550.
The DD V5/V7 don't seem to come with sights.
Rear KAC micro flip sight: $140
Front Low Pro flip sights: $150
Add the sights into the mix and you're at about $850.
If you take your $1250 DD rifle and add that $850, you're at the cost of an SR15 Mod1.
This not taking into consideration the value of the proprietary bolt or gas system.
This is why it's my opinion that the SR15 is not only a great rifle, but economically, is a very good value when compared to what you get from other manufacturers.
All valid points and it makes it really close. The ambi controls are intagible IMO, even though I'm a righty, still nice to have. The SOPMOD stock I can take or leave, although I'd much rather have a CTR than the stupid MOE stock (idk why DD doesn't just put a CTR on).
One issue, KAC components are over priced. I'd likely sell the trigger due to reports of it being unreliable (breaking around a few thousand rounds), which is a major turn off to me and selling it I'd get a fraction of it's MSRP, then I'd have to replace it. E3 bolt is a major positive, but if I wanted a heavy duty bolt I'd always have the option of the LMT enhanced bolt to a DDM4.
Once all these issues are factored in, the value is close and the $100 may seem kinda silly to get turned off over, it's turned me off. Like I said, I'm patient and I'll probably sit until I see the deal I want, or forever if I don't find that deal. :)
MichaelVain
07-18-13, 10:53
All valid points and it makes it really close. The ambi controls are intagible IMO, even though I'm a righty, still nice to have. The SOPMOD stock I can take or leave, although I'd much rather have a CTR than the stupid MOE stock (idk why DD doesn't just put a CTR on).
One issue, KAC components are over priced. I'd likely sell the trigger due to reports of it being unreliable (breaking around a few thousand rounds), which is a major turn off to me and selling it I'd get a fraction of it's MSRP, then I'd have to replace it. E3 bolt is a major positive, but if I wanted a heavy duty bolt I'd always have the option of the LMT enhanced bolt to a DDM4.
Once all these issues are factored in, the value is close and the $100 may seem kinda silly to get turned off over, it's turned me off. Like I said, I'm patient and I'll probably sit until I see the deal I want, or forever if I don't find that deal. :)
I agree that some of the features may not be of interest or of use or just not needed for some.
I'm not familiar with the trigger breaking, I've seen you mention if a few times, but I'm not sure if that's a real issue or not.
But to the larger point of value, it does seem to me that most of the rifles discussed in these threads, KAC, DD, LMT, etc, really are not that far apart in cost when comparing comparable rifles with comparable features.
It seems to boil down to availability, brand loyalty, and how much value an individual places on some of the intangibles that always factor in to civilian purchases. I place great value in innovation and R&D, whereas someone else may not. Some people find great value in getting beer can holders and powdered spices with their rifle, I don't.
Fortunately, most of the manufacturers seriously discussed produce quality rifles that would meet the needs of the majority of people (recreation, home defense, etc).
PatrioticDisorder
07-18-13, 11:30
I agree that some of the features may not be of interest or of use or just not needed for some.
I'm not familiar with the trigger breaking, I've seen you mention if a few times, but I'm not sure if that's a real issue or not.
But to the larger point of value, it does seem to me that most of the rifles discussed in these threads, KAC, DD, LMT, etc, really are not that far apart in cost when comparing comparable rifles with comparable features.
It seems to boil down to availability, brand loyalty, and how much value an individual places on some of the intangibles that always factor in to civilian purchases. I place great value in innovation and R&D, whereas someone else may not. Some people find great value in getting beer can holders and powdered spices with their rifle, I don't.
Fortunately, most of the manufacturers seriously discussed produce quality rifles that would meet the needs of the majority of people (recreation, home defense, etc).
I agree, KAC, Noveske, DD, BCM, Larue, Colt, LMT are hard to argue with. Some of it is personal preference. DD & KAC make lightweight rifles, this is a main attraction for me, generally speaking LMT & Noveske seem to be heavier tack drivers.
Regarding the KAC trigger, no first hand experience or even first hand knowledge. That info was obtained searching M4C. A previous poster mentioned it is no longer an issue, but it still creates some doubt in my mind.
Regarding the KAC trigger, no first hand experience or even first hand knowledge. That info was obtained searching M4C. A previous poster mentioned it is no longer an issue, but it still creates some doubt in my mind.
Can you link to where you found others saying that they break? Was it just one account of it occurring or a wide spread issue? This thread is the first I've heard of it.
Can you link to where you found others saying that they break? Was it just one account of it occurring or a wide spread issue? This thread is the first I've heard of it.
I've heard of some issues in the past, but it did not seem to be as widespread as lets say the rra triggers. The new models are NIB coated for extra reliability so i do not think its an issue.
PatrioticDisorder
07-18-13, 12:46
Can you link to where you found others saying that they break? Was it just one account of it occurring or a wide spread issue? This thread is the first I've heard of it.
Today is my didactics day, we're getting out soon and I have to go immediately back to the ED so without doing a thorough search:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90668
Sinister who is an SME briefly discussed required maintenance of the KAC vs. a Giessele or mil spec trigger.
I think many were concerned about the KAC trigger because they used to be adjustable. Idea was that they didn't want something that can be adjusted on the AR. Right or wrong (I know the military use of the KAC) that's the most common reason I heard. However, the kac triggers coming on sr-15s are no longer adjustable.
All my KAC have geiselle triggers (with exception of a lower purchased this year) because I prefer the Geiselle trigger. But I've always been able to pull the KAC trigger and sell it and break even or pocketing a bit of $$ even after buying the geiselle.
I think many were concerned about the KAC trigger because they used to be adjustable. Idea was that they didn't want something that can be adjusted on the AR. Right or wrong (I know the military use of the KAC) that's the most common reason I heard. However, the kac triggers coming on sr-15s are no longer adjustable.
All my KAC have geiselle triggers (with exception of a lower purchased this year) because I prefer the Geiselle trigger. But I've always been able to pull the KAC trigger and sell it and break even or pocketing a bit of $$ even after buying the geiselle.
My experience as well. If you're really that worried about it, you can sell the new KAC trigger for about the same cost as a new Geissele. The triggers in the SR15 have always been non-adjustable. The match trigger as issued on the Mk 11 and M110 may have been the adjustable version, leading to some of the issues seen in the field. However, I've got 5-6k rounds on a 2008 SR15 lower with the original trigger. It's never had a single issue and has actually improved in feel over time. It was very good right out of the box and has smoothed out a bit over time. Why obsess over it? If you put that much faith in other people's experiences over your own, just sell it new and swap it out. Personally, I don't see the point, especially with the improved version coming in the current Mod1, but to each his own. Instead of obsessing over every little detail, find someone that owns one and shoot it. You'll either feel like you have to have one or you'll think it's no different than any other AR. Most people that own them will tell you there is inherent value in the design, manifested in how it actually performs. Hence, my "go shoot one" advice.
As far as the cost comparisons, it's been done a hundred times. Math doesn't lie and the SR15 is a good value when you compare apples to apples. You can take a BCM or DD rifle, add the comparable parts and you will end up even or within 100-$200 of an SR15. That's well within the margin of dealer pricing variations of $1900-$2100 for the Mod1. Especially if you sell off the SOPMOD or KAC trigger and pocket a little cash.
ETA: it has been said before that the SR15 really is more than the sum of its parts. This is an opinion I share as well. The ONLY reason not to buy one if you are considering it, is if a) you only shoot the cheapest ammo you can get your hands on, or b) you have a legitimate need for 100% parts commonality, meaning you have a departmental or branch requirement for standard parts.
This goes a long way towards explaining your enviable collection! :D
Thanks for the compliment..The Gun Gallery is definitely the enabler to my KAC addiction..also helps that KAC is in my backyard and I sometimes see and shoot with some of the KAC guys at local matches.
Sucks that KevinB is in Va now but, I still have Casey to bug when I want a KAC fix :D
PatrioticDisorder
07-20-13, 07:08
Thanks for the compliment..The Gun Gallery is definitely the enabler to my KAC addiction..also helps that KAC is in my backyard and I sometimes see and shoot with some of the KAC guys at local matches.
Sucks that KevinB is in Va now but, I still have Casey to bug when I want a KAC fix :D
I remember I called them back in may to check if they had DDs & SCAR 17s before I bought mine, at first they didnt want to quote a price over the phone but i explained i lived in south Florida and wouldnt be driving up, then they told me 2k for a DD & 3,600 for a SCAR 16s. Needless to say I was not impressed.
I remember I called them back in may to check if they had DDs & SCAR 17s before I bought mine, at first they didnt want to quote a price over the phone but i explained i lived in south Florida and wouldnt be driving up, then they told me 2k for a DD & 3,600 for a SCAR 16s. Needless to say I was not impressed.
I'll try and check on that cause I know they didn't raise any of their prices unless the distributors they use raised it on them. Do you remember who you spoke with?
PatrioticDisorder
07-20-13, 13:40
I'll try and check on that cause I know they didn't raise any of their prices unless the distributors they use raised it on them. Do you remember who you spoke with?
I can't remember, whoever it was didn't want to discuss prices on the phone, then put me on hold asked someone else and gave prices. No biggie, I found what I wanted.
On a side note, I was on the fence yesterday between the SR-15 mod 1 & a DDM4V5, but went with the DD. Hard decision but the DD was a great deal, so it was very difficult to turn down... I'll probably get a V7 in the near future as well, maybe a SR-15 down the road...
I know a lot of the dealers in Jax won't quote prices over the phone because people will go back and forth calling Gun Gallery and Shooters without ever setting foot in the store.
PatrioticDisorder
07-20-13, 13:42
I know a lot of the dealers in Jax won't quote prices over the phone because people will go back and forth calling Gun Gallery and Shooters without ever setting foot in the store.
That's an interesting J-ville phenomenon. I told them I lived in south Florida and would drive up to buy if they had what I wanted (at a reasonable price) and I think that's the only reason they quoted me over the phone. At the time I believe internet sales were suspended.
That's an interesting J-ville phenomenon. I told them I lived in south Florida and would drive up to buy if they had what I wanted (at a reasonable price) and I think that's the only reason they quoted me over the phone. At the time I believe internet sales were suspended.
Yeah I don't imagine it's something that goes on everywhere, but most places don't have stores like Gun Gallery and Shooters in the same city. GG has the quality and Shooters has the quantity (usually a minimum of 5000 guns in stock in their store). That's why people will get a quote from one place and then call the other and so on. I think both places got tired of playing that game and put a stop to phone quotes. I've been in GG several times and I don't recall seeing DD rifles for $2000. I'd suggest making the drive up some time. They have enough quality rifles/uppers to pick from that IMO it would be worth your while. Or at the very least call back and ask to speak to Neil specifically and explain your situation to him personally. Let him know you're not pitting dealers in a bidding war over the phone.
PatrioticDisorder
07-20-13, 15:16
Yeah I don't imagine it's something that goes on everywhere, but most places don't have stores like Gun Gallery and Shooters in the same city. GG has the quality and Shooters has the quantity (usually a minimum of 5000 guns in stock in their store). That's why people will get a quote from one place and then call the other and so on. I think both places got tired of playing that game and put a stop to phone quotes. I've been in GG several times and I don't recall seeing DD rifles for $2000. I'd suggest making the drive up some time. They have enough quality rifles/uppers to pick from that IMO it would be worth your while. Or at the very least call back and ask to speak to Neil specifically and explain your situation to him personally. Let him know you're not pitting dealers in a bidding war over the phone.
Down the road maybe I'll do that. Down here in south Florida I swear the LGS' compete for who can rip you off the most. Many times I've walked into shops wanting to buy something, only to see the same item marked up 130% the price of what it would be online, plus saless tax. I don't even bother going to them anymore, unless I need an indoor shooting range or want to check something out in person before I make a purchase online.
I have bought a few guns and uppers from Neil at GG and they have always treated me good. I am not local and have always bought them over the phone. In the past, when I got the itch for something I would give Neil a call and see what they had. That was pre-website days but they usually have quite a bit more stuff in the store than advertised on the website. I will do business with them again.
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