salon.com Radley Balko interview re: Militarization of police

[MountainRaven]

An interesting article from that bastion of liberal circle-jer-, I mean thinking, salon.com. (My brother shared this with me. The brother that dislikes "assault weapons" despite owning several.)

Since this seems to be an ongoing topic of discussion around here, I thought I would share it. It is really more of an advertisement for the book, but is raises a few interesting points, from a "police-industrial complex" to shooting dogs and kicking in the door of the wrong house.

Link (http://www.salon.com/2013/07/13/radley_balko_once_a_town_gets_a_swat_team_you_want_to_use_it/).

Excerpt:

However, many of the trends you’re describing seem to be accelerating. You say that Obama has stepped up raids, for example, on medical marijuana dispensaries. What sort of indications, if any, do you see of the federal government reining in the incentives for police militarization?

I don’t think so. I look at police militarization under Obama, and surprisingly, the Bush administration was phasing out two of the programs that were really driving a lot of this. The Byrne Grant program, and the COPS program. These are both federal spending programs, so it’s easy to understand why the Bush administration would put it in the back, and then why Obama would then re-fund them. But, you’ve got to look at the consequences.

What this is: For discussing militarization of US Law Enforcement from local to Federal and/or Radley Balko's book (if anybody actually has or does read it) and/or any related literature or experiences.

What this is not: For attacking other members on the basis of their views, whether it be for or against. Just because someone doesn't believe that police should be militarized doesn't mean that they want LEOs to go die in a fire and just because someone disagrees with the first group doesn't mean that they're jack-booted brown-shirts.

[Belloc]

http://www.cato.org/events/rise-warrior-cop-militarization-americas-police-forces

[Denali]

One of the most disturbing trends in American policing in recent years has been the militarization of police weaponry and tactics. In his new book, The Rise of the Warrior Cop, author Radley Balko traces the arc of American law enforcement from the constables of colonial times to present day SWAT teams and special response units. With the martial rhetoric surrounding the “war on drugs” and the “war on terrorism,” policymakers have signed off on a dangerously aggressive style of policing that too often leads to unnecessary deaths and injuries. Is modern law enforcement on a collision course with our Bill of Rights? Join us for wide-ranging discussion of paramilitary police tactics in America.

I have zero fear of cartels, and terrorists, I am however terrified of armed cells of state agents, who possess virtually unlimited SCOTUS supplied extra-constitutional abilities, to do whatever they will on behalf of a ruling class that is not subject to the "so-called" laws of the land.

Law enforcement is the greatest danger the average amerikan faces on a daily basis....Period!

[Blayglock]

I have zero fear of cartels, and terrorists, I am however terrified of armed cells of state agents, who possess virtually unlimited SCOTUS supplied extra-constitutional abilities, to do whatever they will on behalf of a ruling class that is not subject to the "so-called" laws of the land.

Law enforcement is the greatest danger the average amerikan faces on a daily basis....Period!

I actually am beginning to agree with this. It seems that the average American is in greater danger of being accosted by law enforcement over-stepping their bounds than they are of a terrorist attack.

Link to map of botched paramilitary style raids

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

[Mac5.56]

I have zero fear of cartels, and terrorists, I am however terrified of armed cells of state agents, who possess virtually unlimited SCOTUS supplied extra-constitutional abilities, to do whatever they will on behalf of a ruling class that is not subject to the "so-called" laws of the land.

Law enforcement is the greatest danger the average amerikan faces on a daily basis....Period!

I agree with you 100% and I am glad to see so many people starting to wake up.

[jpmuscle]

Now if we could only focus on the militarization of the people we'd be getting somewhere....


sigh....:rolleyes:

[feedramp]

Now if we could only focus on the militarization of the people we'd be getting somewhere....


sigh....:rolleyes:

Oh, when's the last time you saw a civilian riding around in an up-armored humvee or an APC?

How about strolling around in public carrying automatic weapons and plate carriers/helmet (and don't BS, it's extremely rare for civilians to have those items)?

Those are certainly a lot more common with law enforcement these days than they used to be, meanwhile percentage-wise they really haven't changed on the civilian side.

[NCPatrolAR]

http://www.timelessimagesmi.com/Dbn.Police.tommy.gun.1920.1838.jpg

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/police-machine-gun-599x446.jpg

http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/03/NYPDriotbike_700.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbv104fiAl1rwjpnyo1_500.jpg

[T2C]

NCPatrolAR,

Great pictures!

Thank you

[Skyyr]

http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/03/NYPDriotbike_700.jpg


"Fat, dumb, and happy" comes to mind here. Surprisingly, not much has changed in 3/4 of a century.

[aguila327]

Although I'm still an active police officer I must agree that the desire to create SWAT type teams and purchasing select fire weapons and tactical style uniforms and body armour hasbeen a little disturbing to me.

I wouldn't be as disturbed if the type of officer being hired these days wasn't eye opening as it has been lately.

Its to much to write at this instant but lets just say I am a little concerned the path policing is heading down.

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[MountainRaven]

http://www.timelessimagesmi.com/Dbn.Police.tommy.gun.1920.1838.jpg

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/police-machine-gun-599x446.jpg

http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/03/NYPDriotbike_700.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbv104fiAl1rwjpnyo1_500.jpg

Too bad they misplaced all those Thompsons, BARs, Potato-diggers, and armored motorcycles sometime between the end of the War on Alcohol and the beginning of the War on Drugs.

[jklaughrey]

Although I'm still an active police officer I must agree that the desire to create SWAT type teams and purchasing select fire weapons and tactical style uniforms and body armour hasbeen a little disturbing to me.

I wouldn't be as disturbed if the type of officer being hired these days wasn't eye opening as it has been lately.

Its to much to write at this instant but lets just say I am a little concerned the path policing is heading down.

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I have to agree with my colleague. Even in small rural towns here in the PacNW we have gear and training cycles that rival most urban centers LE regarding ability and access to military styled weapons and tactics. Albeit some of these current upgrades I played a part in. Like the removal of mini-14s and Keltec carbines as primary weapons to BCM and Colt 11.5 select fire offerings with all the usual accessories, aimpoint, surefire lights/cans, vcas, etc. Even no have Crye Apc/jpc versus only soft armor. This coincides with increased training and qualifications tempo and interagency cooperation.

Scary stuff indeed, considering 2PDs and 1 SO responsible for a population less than 12k.

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[NCPatrolAR]

I need to move to one of these small towns. I work in an agency of almost 2k officers and everyone, minus SWAT (which is part time) only has soft armor, a pistol (w/ 3 mags), and a shotgun (w/ 5 rounds of 00 buck).

[jklaughrey]

I need to move to one of these small towns. I work in an agency of almost 2k officers and everyone, minus SWAT (which is part time) only has soft armor, a pistol (w/ 3 mags), and a shotgun (w/ 5 rounds of 00 buck).

Come, we welcome you. Everyone on active patrol has rifle, shotgun, and a pistol. As well as armor. Philosophy regarding this is we live in a gun culture environment which is primarily hunting/sporting rifles. And our citizens know how to shoot... So soft armor and a shotgun isn't going to cut it against a 30.06 and a guy 100m–300m out.

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[Denali]

I need to move to one of these small towns. I work in an agency of almost 2k officers and everyone, minus SWAT (which is part time) only has soft armor, a pistol (w/ 3 mags), and a shotgun (w/ 5 rounds of 00 buck).

This is as it should be, after all you are neighborhood police, not an occupying military presence...

[Alpha Sierra]

Philosophy regarding this is we live in a gun culture environment which is primarily hunting/sporting rifles. And our citizens know how to shoot... So soft armor and a shotgun isn't going to cut it against a 30.06 and a guy 100m–300m out.

300 meters plus, in a rural/mountain environment, against a guy who does know how to employ a scoped, precision rifle and has the fieldcraft skills to go along.......somebody's going to be in for a rough time hard armor or not. Your face is always visible and if you are careless for a few seconds your thighs make awfully nice targets.

[NCPatrolAR]

This is as it should be, after all you are neighborhood police, not an occupying military presence...

Get out of here with that occupying force BS. A rifle (at the minimum) would be a huge benefit ofn barricaded suspect calls, active shooter situations, felony stops on robbery suspects, etc. I don't see the need in suppressors and select fire weapons in most cases for LE, but carbines and plate carriers are a different story.

[11B101ABN]

This is as it should be, after all you are neighborhood police, not an occupying military presence...

****ing nonsense.

Articulate to me why, I do not need my carbine, or plates.

[11B101ABN]

I would strongly suggest dialing it back

SWATcop556

[jklaughrey]

300 meters plus, in a rural/mountain environment, against a guy who does know how to employ a scoped, precision rifle and has the fieldcraft skills to go along.......somebody's going to be in for a rough time hard armor or not. Your face is always visible and if you are careless for a few seconds your thighs make awfully nice targets.

I agree. But the the politicians who make policy don't really understand that. But hey we do what we can.

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[williejc]

Isn't it true that the regular patrol guys or the beat cops are not routinely serving high risk felony warrants and that such tasks are assigned to special teams? The assumption is that these types of police duties require highly qualified, rigorously trained cops with the best equipment. So, I'm not sure that a helmet, body armor, and an
m4 carbine militarizes a peace officer.

Often these guys are on some other type of duty when not suited up, and some of them may be the patrol or beat cop who has his helmet in the car trunk. My opinion is that leadership and not equipment determine outcomes--desirable or not. Idiots in three-cornered hats armed with .38spl revolvers, shotguns, and blackjacks and led by morons would be no less dangerous.

It's not the police that I fear. This may or may not be related, but please avoid bitching if you get a speeding ticket or some other citation and make an effort not to talk shit to the public servant who usually can't do anything "right".

[Alpha Sierra]

Another moronic statement.

Stinks like sovereign citizen bullshit.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=134659

[Blayglock]

Get out of here with that occupying force BS. A rifle (at the minimum) would be a huge benefit ofn barricaded suspect calls, active shooter situations, felony stops on robbery suspects, etc. I don't see the need in suppressors and select fire weapons in most cases for LE, but carbines and plate carriers are a different story.

I agree that a carbine is reasonable, moreso than a shotgun in many cases.

The increasing prevelance for using no-knock warrants served with a healthy dose of 3 a.m. door crashing, dog-shooting mayham is another matter.

[Blayglock]

So, I'm not sure that a helmet, body armor, and an
m4 carbine militarizes a peace officer.

My opinion is that leadership and not equipment determine outcomes--desirable or not. Idiots in three-cornered hats armed with .38spl revolvers, shotguns, and blackjacks and led by morons would be no less dangerous.


Well stated.

And with that, I shall henceforce retire from this thread.

[kmrtnsn]

The increasing prevelance for using no-knock warrants served with a healthy dose of 3 a.m. door crashing, dog-shooting mayham is another matter.

I have been able to get a judge to sign for night service once. I have never been granted "no knock" in the times that I have asked for it. This so-called "prevalence" is simply just not the case.

[NCPatrolAR]

I have been able to get a judge to sign for night service once. I have never been granted "no knock" in the times that I have asked for it. This so-called "prevalence" is simply just not the case.

part of the problem is that every dynamic service is called a "no knock"

[Alpha Sierra]

Knocking the door down two seconds after banging on it twice and yelling POLICE once IS a no-knock if we set aside bullshit semantics like "dynamic service".

Your definition of "knock and announce" is about as contrived as the speaker going a million miles a minute while reading a car lease fine print on a radio ad. It's just a perfunctory step to comply with legal requirements knowing fully well that no one will call you on it.

And you wonder why more and more people lose respect for the police and courts every day.......

[kmrtnsn]

part of the problem is that every dynamic service is called a "no knock"

Agreed, just as every six man team going through the door is perceived to be a "SWAT Team".

[Skyyr]

Another moronic statement.

Stinks like sovereign citizen bullshit.

Sounds like someone who's trying to make the police into another militarized unit while painting with a broad and uneducated brush at the same time, judging from your screen name.

I'd pay hard cash to have Congress, just for one week, declare police departments null and void and have them shut down (without telling the populace this would just last for one week). I'd wager the number of people who wouldn't have anywhere to go or know what to do next would be staggering... and it's these very people who don't need to be police officers. It's the lifetimer officers, just like lifetime politicians, that are the root cause of the issue. People who use power and game the system to accomplish their goals instead of respecting that power and using it for the benefit of liberty. In my mind, they are worse than the criminals they supposedly stop.

Sure, there'd be a good number of people who would simply apply their mental and physical skillsets elsewhere, albeit a minority out of the whole - it is THESE are the people you want to be police officers, people who serve because they are capable, not because they have no other skillsets other than walking around with a gun and looking tough (which, ironically, is quite frequent when individuals leave the military then proceed to apply at the local PD).

[NCPatrolAR]

if we set aside bullshit semantics like "dynamic service".



Accurate descriptions of actions are hardly "bullshit"

[Alpha Sierra]

Accurate descriptions of actions are hardly "bullshit"

Let me give you the main point of my post once more, to see if you get it this time.......


Knocking the door down two seconds after banging on it twice and yelling POLICE once IS a no-knock

[Blayglock]

I have been able to get a judge to sign for night service once. I have never been granted "no knock" in the times that I have asked for it. This so-called "prevalence" is simply just not the case.

No its not or at least it may depend on how you define "prevelance." Im not going to argue semantics and Im glad to hear that you your particular juristiction is stingy with handing them out.

See my link in the earlier in thread.

Okay. I really am done. Yall have fun.

[NCPatrolAR]

Let me give you the main point of my post once more, to see if you get it this time.......

I got your "main point" the first time.

[4x4twenty6]

This is starting to look like another 5-0 bashing thread. As an officer and former swat team member I look at some of these comments and think what the f*ck are y'all talking about?! It's so outrageous that it is comical. Where do you guys live that the officers give you this impression? Or is it just a completely unfounded assumption because your tin foil hats are on too tight. Did you see a YouTube video of some moron cop and a college student with a video camera trying to half ass explain why he doesn't have to listen to an officer, and now "all officers are stupid and trying to take away my constitutional rights" .
It's blatantly obvious some of you haven't the slightest idea what today's LEO's do on a daily basis.

-Eric

[Mjolnir]

This is starting to look like another 5-0 bashing thread.
-Eric
Eric, why is it when someone disagrees with an LE position it's considered "anti-LEO"?

Take a step back and listen to what is being stated. NOTHING he stated was "anti-LEO". He's against turning local police into something more akin to us seeing on the nightly news in Afghanistan or Iraq. And what sane person would? We have the NSA doing... EVERYTHING, we have drones, cameras, "stop and frisk" (in NYC), and all manner of abuse throughout government and stupid assed crime. So we're not saying we don't like the police we don't want MILITARIZED police and police tactics.

Kevin

[4x4twenty6]

When Denali posted, "the greatest threat to Americans on a daily basis is law enforcement" then it became anti-Leo for me.
That is ignorant and a gross over generalization with nothing to back it up.
The greatest threat to Americans are people who make assumptions without credible facts to back it up. The uninformed sheeple who believe the MSM are just as big of a threat as those that love the type of propaganda stated in the first page of this thread.

One of the other posters said it and I agree, this was starting to sound like some sovereign citizen bs.

Your state and local LEO's aren't the threat.

[4x4twenty6]

Mjolnir, so because we are starting to "look" more militarized with better body armor, rifles, thigh rigs and so on we are now magically more threatening. I want to go home at the end of the night bro, I'd love better and more comfortable body armor.
Carrying 25 lbs of gear on your waist does a number on your back and depts are finally starting to realize they need to make changes to gear and how it's worn.

So we look different and now all of a sudden we are scarier than before. Sounds like some shit Feinstein was spewing about these dangerous black rifles. No clue about guns but man they look scary!

The reason for the tactics and gear is because the people we deal with on a daily basis are becoming more violent and more trained. We are realizing that patrolman are the first line of defense and need a rifle, a thigh rig or chest rig with a plate carrier when shit goes bad. Can't just say man that's scary I'm going to hold back while these people get blasted, swat will be here in 30-45 minutes.

You can't compare the NSA, DHS to local LE or even nypd to the rest of the country. Comparing apples to oranges.

[Safetyhit]

Yes, let's talk Salon articles here and interpret them as fact. Heck here's another for everyone to enjoy, straight from this mornings Real Clear Politics:

Our Real Problem Is White Rage

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/15/our_real_problem_is_white_rage/


By the way wouldn't it at least be prudent to remember that the police didn't arrest Zimmerman? I know this is a separate topic, but there's a case where the police didn't want to overreact and then the chief was forced out.

No, I'm not nearly as worried about the local police as I now am the federal government.

[streck]

Crap like this is what the thread is about....LINK (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/07/anthony-mitchell-lawsuit-third-amendment-_n_3557431.html)


Anthony Mitchell was at home on July 10, 2011, when cops called his home and said they needed to occupy the house in order to gain a "tactical advantage" in dealing with a domestic violence case at a neighbor's home, Courthouse News reported.

Mitchell said he told the officer he did not want officers to enter his home. Nevertheless, five officers showed up and smashed the door open with a metal ram before pointing their guns at Mitchell, cursing at him and telling him to lie on the floor.

As Mitchell lay on the floor with his hands over his face, officers fired multiple pepper-ball projectiles at him, causing him "injury and severe pain," according to the complaint, which was filed June 30 of this year. Officers also fired pepperball rounds at Mitchell's dog, even though the dog did not threaten them.

[Safetyhit]

Crap like this is what the thread is about....LINK (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/07/anthony-mitchell-lawsuit-third-amendment-_n_3557431.html)


I thought the thread was about the militarization of police tactics and gear. Haven't there always been general police related incidents where they went too far at times? What happened to that family was disgusting, but is it now commonplace as a result of "militarization"?

When the populace justifiably demands to excercise it's right to own powerful, high-capacity weapons then I would expect any well-run department to be able to deal with it should one of those well armed individuals decide to go rogue.

[aguila327]

I'd like to supply sn example of something that has changed over the ladt 10 years or so:

Father calls to rr ports his mid f le aged daughter has been depressed and he concerned for her well being. She has a .22lr bolt action in the house.

Responding officers arrive knock and "bang". One shot. Officer's huddle against a brick wall and call for back up.

A sgt. arrives with a few more patrol officers. Perimeter set, no rrsponse to phone calls or PA. Most expienced officer already know what happened. Not the nervous and unsure Lt. SWAT is requested. The next two hours encompassed the most ridiculous sights I have ever seen. Up armoured tacticool officers swarming, pepper cannisters deployed through every window, remote breeching robot deployed. End result: one middle aged female suicide victim, house destroyed, $$$$ in OT for SWAT team call out.

In the past the Sgt most likely would have tsken one or two of his most competent officers and entered through the unlocked door and cleared the house room by room, floor by floor until the womsn was found. Family could have begun mourning in the comfort of their home. Then the hardest descision for the sgt. Who's taking the paper on this job.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for officers being equipped with the tools to get the job done and everyone home. Its this philosophy thst since we have all these tools (toys) we have to use them, and thst the decision making for these jobs is taken out of the hands of the first line supervisor and placed on the altar of the operations manual authored by a high ranking administrator who couldn't police himself out of a paperbag during his 30 year career in law enforcement.

Opinions.....

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[Skyyr]

Its this philosophy thst since we have all these tools (toys) we have to use them

There's your problem; it's the problem with government, police, and authoritarianism in general. "If you have the tools, use them." This is the single, biggest threat to liberty - power ALWAYS gets abused, whether it is a position of authority or it's an advantage of having information and tools others don't.

PRISM, gun registration, profiling, militarization of PDs - it's all to the same end, each is simply justified differently.

This is why I'm against supplying police departments with anything that the common people do not have legal access to.

[montanadave]

Its this philosophy thst since we have all these tools (toys) we have to use them

Lot of truth here.

In the post 9/11 delirium, lawmakers appropriated huge amounts of cash for local law enforcement to beef up their capabilities. Politically, it was a win-win: Tons of money going to manufacturers of weapons, ammunition, and tactical equipment as well as contractors providing additional training; local law enforcement agencies acting like kids in a candy store, grabbing up everything on their wish list with a free credit card from the feds; and the voters back home feeling safe and snug in the knowledge they are being protected against all manner of evil.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5755/rdpl.jpg

Money well spent? Maybe. Maybe not.

[austinN4]

Is that turret gunner sighting on the photographer?

[Safetyhit]

Personally I don't care if every officer carries an AR and body armor in their vehicle, nor do I care if a large dept decides to purchase an APV. What matters to me at least are how and when they are used.

To argue that just having them sets the stage for repeated incidents or a new standard of opression really shouldn't have to be true. Sort of like nukes to an extent.

[glockshooter]

It sure seems that the anti-police and anti-swat folks are always quick to give their opinion and second guess anything and everything that the police do and are also just as quick complain when they don't act. You want the "regular" police to be armed to the level you believe is necessary without the knowledge of what they have to deal with. All the people that think cops are to well equipped, do you have kids? Do you realize it will not be the swat team responding first to the active shooter at your kids school? You are all to happy to send a cop into a situation without the tools to protect themselves and save your loved ones. How about the next time there is an active shooter with a rifle you show up and handle it, but you can only have a pistol and a shotgun with 5 rounds of buck. Just like everything else in life, people prefer to judge all cops by bad choices and decisions of a few. Just like many people on this board I gladly take on the responsibility to protect you and your loved ones. It would be nice one day to get a little appreciation for all that we sacrifice to protect you.

I also wonder if all these people that talk about all the abuses the police have committed have ever actually experienced it first hand. I going to bet not, so what we basically have is a bunch of opinions based on 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand info, or more realistically the media.

I suggest that all the people that a critical of the police set up a ride along on a Friday or Saturday night in a busy and high crime area. Let me know then what your opinion is.

Matt

[montanadave]

Is that turret gunner sighting on the photographer?

That photo was taken and posted by a resident in one of the small communities around Boston during the marathon bomber manhunt.

If memory serves, the guy that took the photo says he was standing in his second-floor window watching the action across the street when the officer in the vehicle aimed his weapon directly at him.

[glockshooter]

Knocking the door down two seconds after banging on it twice and yelling POLICE once IS a no-knock if we set aside bullshit semantics like "dynamic service".

You've experienced this? Or you watched a media edited version of events? Maybe like the Zimmerman edited tape the media put out.

[jklaughrey]

Coming full circle on this issue. Just to reiterate, I work in a rural SO. Currently on a part time basis since I am now a consultant for a private global security firm and a ammunition manufacturer. My AO is rural, and my dept is small in numbers compared to other areas. Primarily when I respond, that is it. Backup depends on location and call status of other deputies or local PD. I'm quite sure the citizens I serve are happy I come prepared better to serve them than sitting on my dick on the radio with a 6 gun and 10gallon "smoky" hat.

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[MountainRaven]

Personally I don't care if every officer carries an AR and body armor in their vehicle, nor do I care if a large dept decides to purchase an APV. What matters to me at least are how and when they are used.

To argue that just having them sets the stage for repeated incidents or a new standard of opression really shouldn't have to be true. Sort of like nukes to an extent.

And yet we have multiple examples where the only reason LE has deployed something has been because they have it.

Your analogy regarding nukes is flawed. If the US was the only country that had nukes or was considered to be the only country on earth whose use of nukes were considered to be justified, we'd be throwing them left and right. MacArthur would have nuked the entire Chinese army in northern Korea, Nixon would have nuked Hanoi, Bush would have nuked the Iraqi army, Clinton would have nuked the AQ training camps in AFG, and on and on.

When the US deploys a nuke, it needs to worry about every other nuclear armed country on earth responding by nuking the US and international condemnation.

When LE deploys an APC, they don't need to worry about concerned citizens (or the criminals the APC is deployed against) responding with, say, a fully armed BMP or a T-55. When they kick down the wrong door in the middle of the night and drag a family from their home and shoot the family's big dumb lovable Lab, they don't need to worry about the neighborhood responding by holding them at gunpoint or even marching on City Hall in protest.

As the comic book writer said, with great power comes great responsibility. And as a police officer, you hold a virtual monopoly on the legitimate use of force in this country - a great power, indeed.

[jklaughrey]

Let us not forget, sometimes LE presence is used as a deterrent to quell or stop future criminal activity. Much like our nuclear arsenal. Although it just so happens we use our LE resources, hopefully in a just and honorable manner.

PS... Unlike all other nuclear capable countries... We in the US actually use ours... HIROSHIMA/NAGASAKI ring any bells.

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[montanadave]

It sure seems that the anti-police and anti-swat folks are always quick to give their opinion and second guess anything and everything that the police do and are also just as quick complain when they don't act.

Matt

Let me be clear. I am not anti-police or anti-swat. My interactions (albeit limited) with my local police and sheriff's departments have been overwhelmingly positive. They have addressed my concerns in a professional manner, been courteous and forthright, and always helpful in resolving the issue. No complaints from me.

I'm not so naive as to think there aren't a couple of bad apples in the barrel. I've read or been made aware of multiple instances over the years (fifty plus in this community) of LEOs going off the reservation. Just like I'm aware of screw-ups in the medical community, shady real-estate brokers, shifty car dealers, etc. I don't indict the entire system because a few folks can't play by the rules.

But I do wonder about the efficacy of how taxpayer money is spent by government agencies. In 2009, our local police and sheriff's departments received a DHS grant (one of several) for $385,000 to purchase a BEAR (Ballistic Engineered Armored Response) vehicle (http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/fighting-crime-military-style/article_cfe3ac39-8bb1-5605-97e5-275769d97545.html). It's never (to my knowledge) been deployed although I suspect it gets taken out for training purposes, with attendant operating, training, and maintenance costs.

Could there be a situation where this vehicle might come in handy? Sure, I suppose. There might be a situation where having an Abrams tank might come in handy. But was it a judicious expenditure of public funds? I'm guessing we could have received a lot more "bang for our buck" by providing additional training for patrol officers which would assist them in their routine activities rather than purchasing high-dollar equipment which has spent 99% of its time parked in the county shop.

[Javelin]

I have zero fear of cartels, and terrorists, I am however terrified of armed cells of state agents, who possess virtually unlimited SCOTUS supplied extra-constitutional abilities, to do whatever they will on behalf of a ruling class that is not subject to the "so-called" laws of the land.

Law enforcement is the greatest danger the average amerikan faces on a daily basis....Period!

As a former military member I agree with this. There is no reason to have a militant army on US soil unless those in power want more of it.

[Javelin]

Lot of truth here.

In the post 9/11 delirium, lawmakers appropriated huge amounts of cash for local law enforcement to beef up their capabilities. Politically, it was a win-win: Tons of money going to manufacturers of weapons, ammunition, and tactical equipment as well as contractors providing additional training; local law enforcement agencies acting like kids in a candy store, grabbing up everything on their wish list with a free credit card from the feds; and the voters back home feeling safe and snug in the knowledge they are being protected against all manner of evil.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5755/rdpl.jpg

Money well spent? Maybe. Maybe not.

Agreed. That police officer pointing that gun at an unarmed civilian standing in their home full on retard. But this is what we will get when we allow LEOs to act like paramilitary. So stupid.

[Irish]

When Denali posted, "the greatest threat to Americans on a daily basis is law enforcement" then it became anti-Leo for me.
That is ignorant and a gross over generalization with nothing to back it up...
Your state and local LEO's aren't the threat.

I agree that the police are not the greatest threat to Americans. However, like it or not you're 9X more likely to be killed by the police than a terrorist. You're 4X more likely to be killed by lightning than a terrorist. We've basically given up the Constitution and imposed a Orwellian police state due to the "WOT". Agree or not, it makes no difference to me, the numbers speak for themselves. One reference (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-toddler-than-a-terrorist.html) of many.

[Javelin]

I agree that the police are not the greatest threat to Americans. However, like it or not you're 9X more likely to be killed by the police than a terrorist. You're 4X more likely to be killed by lightning than a terrorist. We've basically given up the Constitution and imposed a Orwellian police state due to the "WOT". Agree or not, it makes no difference to me, the numbers speak for themselves. One reference (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-toddler-than-a-terrorist.html) of many.

I can agree somewhat. There is a greater chance statistically of drowning in your own bathtub than being killed by an extremist threat. I'm not willing to give my rights away to be protected from the Boogey-man this government has created.

[Irish]

I'm not willing to give my rights away to be protected from the Boogey-man this government has created.

My point exactly. Also, when people refer to "police state", at least from my understanding, they're not talking about the police specifically. It includes all the snooping, monitoring, cameras, etc. and would include the NSA, FBI, IRS, etc.

[montanadave]

I thought this thread might benefit from a brief comedic interlude. So I over this video tutorial on proper "room" clearing technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSwbxOnMmRA

[Javelin]

My point exactly. Also, when people refer to "police state", at least from my understanding, they're not talking about the police specifically. It includes all the snooping, monitoring, cameras, etc. and would include the NSA, FBI, IRS, etc.

Yes exactly. It is the entire monopoly of governing through tyranny. All of these organizations are so corrupt.

[Irish]

Interesting article from the Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/edward-snowden-finds-an-unlikely-admirer-in-former-stasi-agent-1.1453161).

A former agent in East Germany’s secret police, the Stasi, has praised NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden as a “hero” and dismissed as “hypocritical” espionage charges filed against him by the US government. Fallout from the Snowden affair has brought a rare, if odd, moment of unity between former Stasi officials and many of their harshest critics.

“Compared to NSA surveillance today, what we did was like a children’s game,” said Gotthold Schramm, a 71-year-old former agent for East Germany’s ministry for state security, told The Irish Times. Mr Schramm spent all but two of his 39 years with the Stasi in the foreign intelligence department, often working closely with spy master Markus Wolf. He said it is “naive” to think any secret service will not exhaust the technical possibilities for surveillance each age presents.

[glockshooter]

"you're 9X more likely to be killed by the police than a terrorist."

Does this number include all the justified officer involved shootings? If it does then it is changing the number to support your stance. I guess what I get from all of this some of you guys believe we should not be prepared for the worst case scenario, we should just plan for the scenario you believe we will routinely face. So by that logic we should only need 7-10 magazines as citizens of this country because we are not likely to need it. For that matter lets get rid of all magazine fired weapons and just keep revolvers. Kind of sounds funny now doesn't it. Seems a lot of people want others to be limited in their ability to protect themselves but the same people want no limits for themselves. Many people want their ARs for protection ( as do I) but someone in this thread said he thought a pistol and shotgun was enough for the police. Since you want to talk numbers what do you think the percentage of police are involved in armed encounters is as opposed to say a CCW. Since we all know that answer then by your rational we don't need CCW.

To be perfectly clear I am pro-gun and don't believe we should be limited in capacity or type of weapons available. I don't believe the weapons are the problem.

I will also add I have been on 3am no knock warrants. I have first hand perspective as to why they were done that way. What most fail to understand or believe is they are done that way for the safety of the officers and the citizens. I have also been on knock and announce warrant in the middle of the day. When we serve warrants and apply for the warrant the suspect involved decides the type of warrant based on their criminal history and the type of behavior they have displayed. A no knock warrant has to be independently justified and granted by a judge or magistrate. I know there are people that don't and won't agree with me, and that is okay as long as it is your true opinion not some regurgitated BS you heard from someone else.

[aguila327]

As I reread this thread its quite clear that most of the opinions are based on exagerration of a few bad police involved incidents and the other side gets their feathers easily ruffled when they feel that law enforcement is being attacked.

I don't think that one person here wishes harm or doesn't want our officers prepared to handle possible or should I say probable threats.

I think an earlier poster hit the nail on the head though. The politicization of the terrorist threat in this country has and is leading to an erosion of basic rights which most people take for granted. Even scarier is the willingness of some to give up those rights in the name of security.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[SeriousStudent]

Just curious - with all this discussion, anybody change their mind yet?

Anybody at all?

[ramairthree]

An on-duty LEO having a SA carbine, helmet, and plate hangers in his trunk makes sense to me.

IMO an off-duty LEO should have the same CC, personal possesion options as any other law abiding citizen in his jurisdiction. If an off duty SEAL in CA cannot have something, why do off-duty and retired LE personnel have exceptions?

I do have an issue with LE depts. and agencies having FA, AM, tanks,APCs, drones, etc. Calling it LE and not military does not negate the fact that it violates the entire spirit and intent of PC. I consider this fact, not opinion, as some state constitutions expressly state this.

[Skyyr]

Personally I don't care if every officer carries an AR and body armor in their vehicle, nor do I care if a large dept decides to purchase an APV. What matters to me at least are how and when they are used.

To argue that just having them sets the stage for repeated incidents or a new standard of opression really shouldn't have to be true. Sort of like nukes to an extent.

You do realize that your argument about nukes supports the point of this very thread, correct?

The US used nukes until EVERYONE ELSE GOT THEM. They then ceased to use them in fear nukes would be used against us in retaliation... which is exactly the same scenario we see now with police departments.

The more that police are militarized beyond the norm for American citizens, the more they are inclined to use their training and weaponry against the citizenry (and they actually do, as recent news and events shows).

Further, along the lines of your argument, the only way to stop this is to normalize them to the levels of the citizenry, whether it's arming the population further or de-militarizing the police.

You made a great argument, you just proved the wrong point (no offense meant, as you know I love reading your posts).

[streck]

Isolated incidents?

LINK (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/seniors-beaten-nypd-300g-article-1.1398632)

HEAVILY ARMED police commandos battered a senior couple and killed their dog inside their Brooklyn home — and now the city will pay $300,000 to settle the case.

Breast cancer survivor Elaine McCarthy, now 71, was reading a Bible in her Canarsie bedroom, and partially paralyzed stroke victim Egbert Thomas, 73, was watching a John Wayne flick on TV when at least five Emergency Service Unit cops rammed through a basement door on Sept. 6, 2008, and began their rampage.

The cops — led by an officer who would later commit suicide after another allegation of excessive force, court papers show — weren’t in hot pursuit of a perp, which could have explained why they tossed the seniors aside like rag dolls.

In fact, the officers had a warrant only to collect evidence against the couple’s adult grandson, who had been arrested the previous day for having an illicit relationship with a teenage girlfriend.

After hearing the police barge in uninvited, McCarthy sent her 8-year-old granddaughter downstairs to check on the noise. The little girl dutifully reported back, “Grandma, the basement is full of police,” according to court papers.

McCarthy went to investigate, and a shotgun-toting cop promptly wrenched her arm behind her back. She was then handcuffed and thrown to the floor. She has had two surgeries on her shoulder and knee to repair the damage.

Thomas hadn’t heard the ruckus and was hobbling to the bathroom when he heard someone shout, “Hey, boy, where are you going?” court papers state.

Thomas was grabbed by his collar and flung to the floor. But an unidentified cop muttered “Oh, s--t!” when he realized the senior citizen was infirm and could not get up, according to Thomas’ deposition.

He suffered a broken arm.

“They could have just rang the bell, said they had a warrant and come in to take what they were looking for,” McCarthy told the Daily News. “They hurt two people for no reason. It was totally wrong.”

In addition, the couple’s pit bull, Trouble, was whacked by a cop with his heavy ballistic shield and died three days later.

"What happened to this elderly couple should not happen to anyone in this city, particularly its senior citizens," said Thomas and McCarthy's lawyer, Sanford Rubenstein.

The police raiders were led by Lt. Michael Pigott, who would make headlines three weeks after the Canarsie raid when he gave the order to Taser an emotionally disturbed man perched on the ledge of a Brooklyn building.

That man, Iman Morales, fell to his death, and Pigott committed suicide after police officials questioned his actions.

A city Law Department spokesman said the settlement with McCarthy and Thomas, which came last week in Brooklyn Supreme Court, was “in the parties’ best interest.”

[glockshooter]

So the point of your post is these incidents aren't isolated, and you support your point by linking a single incident. No one has ever debated there are bad people that make bad decisions. The problem most seem to not be able to get past is they are isolated. There are thousands or warrats that are down without the abuses listed in the article. Many here are acting like democrats when talking about gun control. You want to crucify all because of a very small few. I bet you were all crying about it when the demos wanted to take away our guns because a few idiots. You CANNOT have it both ways. Again if you guys think the police can't help you don't call.

Matt



Isolated incidents?

LINK (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/seniors-beaten-nypd-300g-article-1.1398632)

HEAVILY ARMED police commandos battered a senior couple and killed their dog inside their Brooklyn home — and now the city will pay $300,000 to settle the case.

Breast cancer survivor Elaine McCarthy, now 71, was reading a Bible in her Canarsie bedroom, and partially paralyzed stroke victim Egbert Thomas, 73, was watching a John Wayne flick on TV when at least five Emergency Service Unit cops rammed through a basement door on Sept. 6, 2008, and began their rampage.

The cops — led by an officer who would later commit suicide after another allegation of excessive force, court papers show — weren’t in hot pursuit of a perp, which could have explained why they tossed the seniors aside like rag dolls.

In fact, the officers had a warrant only to collect evidence against the couple’s adult grandson, who had been arrested the previous day for having an illicit relationship with a teenage girlfriend.

After hearing the police barge in uninvited, McCarthy sent her 8-year-old granddaughter downstairs to check on the noise. The little girl dutifully reported back, “Grandma, the basement is full of police,” according to court papers.

McCarthy went to investigate, and a shotgun-toting cop promptly wrenched her arm behind her back. She was then handcuffed and thrown to the floor. She has had two surgeries on her shoulder and knee to repair the damage.

Thomas hadn’t heard the ruckus and was hobbling to the bathroom when he heard someone shout, “Hey, boy, where are you going?” court papers state.

Thomas was grabbed by his collar and flung to the floor. But an unidentified cop muttered “Oh, s--t!” when he realized the senior citizen was infirm and could not get up, according to Thomas’ deposition.

He suffered a broken arm.

“They could have just rang the bell, said they had a warrant and come in to take what they were looking for,” McCarthy told the Daily News. “They hurt two people for no reason. It was totally wrong.”

In addition, the couple’s pit bull, Trouble, was whacked by a cop with his heavy ballistic shield and died three days later.

"What happened to this elderly couple should not happen to anyone in this city, particularly its senior citizens," said Thomas and McCarthy's lawyer, Sanford Rubenstein.

The police raiders were led by Lt. Michael Pigott, who would make headlines three weeks after the Canarsie raid when he gave the order to Taser an emotionally disturbed man perched on the ledge of a Brooklyn building.

That man, Iman Morales, fell to his death, and Pigott committed suicide after police officials questioned his actions.

A city Law Department spokesman said the settlement with McCarthy and Thomas, which came last week in Brooklyn Supreme Court, was “in the parties’ best interest.”

[streck]

Would like me to post every instance I can find? Or is it reasonable that based on several reports, that the incidents are not uncommon or isolated?

[Blayglock]

Because this link was apparently missed earlier in the thread here it is again. Specifically for Glockshooter.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

[glockshooter]

I looked at the above link and looks terrible. And as I have said from the beginning most of these incidents are individuals making bad decisions. I paid close attention to VA because I live and work there. What I think you may not realize about this site is these numbers cover 27 years. Seeing that VA had twelve incidents made me think. Then I realized how the incident are coded and that they cover a 27 year period. Then I started clicking on the icons, and wouldn't you know it they list an incident involving a friend of mine that was killed by a drug dealer who fired a round through his front door as they were doing a knock and announce warrant. Your link is nothing more than a site that presents half the story and sells it as truth. I know many people will never agree with me on this and that is okay. But if sites like the one above are where your getting your info then you are just pushing someone else's bullshit.

[NCPatrolAR]

I dont believe any of the incidents posted on that map have any follow-up done on them and use news articles as the basis of "fact".

[eodinert]

The US used nukes until EVERYONE ELSE GOT THEM. They then ceased to use them in fear nukes would be used against us in retaliation...

Either that, or we ceased to use them because the war was over.

Federal grant money has a lot to do with the guccification of the police. Free money = Shopping trip. I had to laugh at all the multi-cam during the search after the Boston bombing.

[Blayglock]

Gents,

It is not an isolated incident of a few bad individuals. It's in policy decision being implemented.

Here is a link to the paper which contends, quite well, that there has been an increasing militarization of Americas domestic police force over the last 25 years. It has 522 citations from a variety of sources including: newspapers, magazine articles, scholarly journals, law journals, government statistics, police interviews, presendential radio addresses, law enforcement bulletins, and court cases. The map is a small part of it.

Here is a link to the paper which you can read for free.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf

Here is a link to another scholarly paper from the George Mason University Economics Department with a similar contention:

http://www.ccoyne.com/Hall-Coyne-Militarization.pdf


Until you can produce a refutation or proof of widespread misrepresentation of events as presented with something other than anecdotes from your local department or skeptism I am going to have to say that there is only one side pushing bullshit here.

[Mjolnir]

Gents,

It is not an isolated incident of a few bad individuals. It's in policy decision being implemented.

Here is a link to the paper which contends, quite well, that there has been an increasing militarization of Americas domestic police force over the last 25 years. It has 522 citations from a variety of sources including: newspapers, magazine articles, scholarly journals, law journals, government statistics, police interviews, presendential radio addresses, law enforcement bulletins, and court cases. The map is a small part of it.

Here is a link to the paper which you can read for free.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf

Here is a link to another scholarly paper from the George Mason University Economics Department with a similar contention:

http://www.ccoyne.com/Hall-Coyne-Militarization.pdf


Until you can produce a refutation or proof of widespread misrepresentation of events as presented with something other than anecdotes from your local department or skeptism I am going to have to say that there is only one side pushing bullshit here.
Thanks for the links.

[kmrtnsn]

Because this link was apparently missed earlier in the thread here it is again. Specifically for Glockshooter.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

Considering that map covers about 20 years, the "numbers" are as statistically insignificant the sources are dubious. A better compiler of statistics on excessive UOF would be BJS, who's last report was 2006.

Highlights:

During 2002 large State and local law enforcement agencies, representing 5% of agencies and 59% of officers, received a total of 26,556 citizen complaints about police use of force.
About a third of all force complaints in 2002 were not sustained (34%). Twenty-five percent were unfounded, 23% resulted in officers being exonerated, and 8% were sustained.
Using sustained force complaints as an indicator of excessive force results in an estimate of about 2,000 incidents of police use of excessive force among large agencies in 2002.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ccpuf.pdf

[SteveS]

Peace officers,, to keep peace between the law abiding people and stop the crooks. People are getting pissed at the gestapo like tactics sadly IMO the uniforms make a great target for the people who become upset at the situation and we are not talking welfare types but military trained warriors. That is why the government fears the constitution loving ex military.

[MountainRaven]

Because this link was apparently missed earlier in the thread here it is again. Specifically for Glockshooter.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

According to that map, there were none in 2012.

[Blayglock]

The first convention of the thread is that there has been an increase in the militarization of domestic police forces nationwide. That convention is without a doubt, 100% true. Over the last 25 years our domestic police forces have increasingly adopted military style tactics and weapons.

2nd question: has this lead to an increase in the number of negative incidents? One criminologist I found (Peter Kraska Eastern Kentucky University) has said from his research that the number of SWAT callouts has increased from an annual average of 3000 in the early 1980s to 40,000 per year for the last year in which he has data.

Assuming the number of negative SWAT incidents is even 0.003% (just for example I have no citation for that specific number) that would mean an increase from 9 incidents per year to 120 incidents per year.

You could call that statistically insignificant and it would indeed be. But that is cold comfort to those whose lives are ruined by it. But, to make an omelette you've got to break a few eggs am I right?

So what, if anything, could be done to improve the situation? I'll start by suggesting that when these mistakes are made that the agency own up to them.

[glocktogo]

I would just like to mention that the "isolated" incidents where wrongful force is applied, aren't "isolated" if it happens to you. I'm as likely to give an agency a pass if it's an honest mistake as anyone. If it happened as a direct result of failures in command to suppress paramilitary think as SOP, then I have an issue.

I don't care if LEO's have full auto, so long as law abiding citizens can have full auto. I don't care if they have plate carriers and APC's, so long as law abiding citizens can have them. It's when you have jurisdictions where the police have all these things and the citizenry have none that problems arise. It's a matter of perspective.

[glockshooter]

I would just like to mention that the "isolated" incidents where wrongful force is applied, aren't "isolated" if it happens to you. I'm as likely to give an agency a pass if it's an honest mistake as anyone. If it happened as a direct result of failures in command to suppress paramilitary think as SOP, then I have an issue.

I don't care if LEO's have full auto, so long as law abiding citizens can have full auto. I don't care if they have plate carriers and APC's, so long as law abiding citizens can have them. It's when you have jurisdictions where the police have all these things and the citizenry have none that problems arise. It's a matter of perspective.

I agree with you that the police and citizens should have the same ability to defend themselves. I have zero issues with a law abiding citizen having a SBR, SBS, suppressor, subgun, etc. I am a citizen an I personally own some of those items. The problem is you want to blame the police for the current govt restrictions. You do realize that police have no control over that right? I am a believer in personal responsibility. I believe that people should be held accountable for their actions individually. You thinking that the police should not have their tools because you can't have them is stupid. Why do you want a police officer to go into a situation with less than they need. I don't know you or your background so I do t know if you have ever been in the military or an armed encounter, but I know I have on many occasions. I have and do run to the threat, and I am thankful I have the tools and training to protect you and me.

[Irish]

You thinking that the police should not have their tools because you can't have them is stupid. Why do you want a police officer to go into a situation with less than they need. I don't know you or your background so I do t know if you have ever been in the military or an armed encounter, but I know I have on many occasions. I have and do run to the threat, and I am thankful I have the tools and training to protect you and me.

glocktogo is a peace officer.

One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that if a few police officers have a few negative isolated incidents we shouldn't judge them as a whole. I get that, I agree and I fully understand. You're always gonna have somebody in a group have a bad day or be a bad seed, it happens.

However, a few isolated incidents, meaning really bad days like the N. Hollywood shootout, are the justification for needing all sorts of gear and training. You can't have it both ways.

The reality is that there aren't many incidents like that and the vast majority of police officers will never be involved in anything close to that. So a few isolated incidents is easy justification when it pushes your agenda one way, but not the other direction.

I am definitely not against the police being armed with the proper tools and equipment for their job. But, let's face it those things are rarely needed and are when they do they're just a few isolated incidents. I think the police should be restricted to the same things the citizens are like magazine restrictions in NY.

I don't mean this directly at you Glockshooter, just a few thoughts in general.

[NCPatrolAR]

The first convention of the thread is that there has been an increase in the militarization of domestic police forces nationwide. That convention is without a doubt, 100% true. Over the last 25 years our domestic police forces have increasingly adopted military style tactics and weapons.

Actually it might be more accurate to say that the police have returned to using military style weapons. Look no further than the pictures I posted on page 1. Each of those pictures are dated in the 1930s and show full auto Thompson SMGs, belt fed MGs, and automatic rifles. The standard police uniform back then also closely mirrored the standard issue army uniform of the day.

When it comes to tactics, the military and police communities have passed techniques back and forth for decades. When we did train ups prior to deployments to Bosnia or Kosovo the stuff we were taught was police tactics 101 all the way down to how to search people.



2nd question: has this lead to an increase in the number of negative incidents? One criminologist I found (Peter Kraska Eastern Kentucky University) has said from his research that the number of SWAT callouts has increased from an annual average of 3000 in the early 1980s to 40,000 per year for the last year in which he has data.

You have to look at the facts that there werent a lot of SWAT units in the early 80's and whats the nature of the cited call-outs? Its pretty much SOP for SWAT to be called during any kind of barricaded individual call. This is a smart move as it frees patrol officers back up to resume answering calls for service, gets more well trained and equipped individuals, and typically leads to a much better outcome for everyone involved.

[streck]

....and whats the nature of the cited call-outs?

Apparently, SWAT call outs now include serving information warrants for non-violent offenders already in custody...

[NCPatrolAR]

Apparently, SWAT call outs now include serving information warrants for non-violent offenders already in custody...

whats an "information" warrant?

[Blayglock]

NC,

Depending on which study you find it seems that 75% of SWAT callouts are for serving high risk warrants (increasingly drug raids). Around 13-14% for barricaded suspects.

From what I can tell different jurisdictions have varying qualifications as to what constitutes a "high risk" warrant.

For informational purposes I would be curious to hear from the LEOs as to what those qualifications are. I'll get back to you all with the ones for my local.

Regards

[streck]

whats an "information" warrant?

Ok, I should have called it an evidence warrant, perhaps....



In fact, the officers had a warrant only to collect evidence against the couple’s adult grandson, who had been arrested the previous day for having an illicit relationship with a teenage girlfriend.

[glocktogo]

I agree with you that the police and citizens should have the same ability to defend themselves. I have zero issues with a law abiding citizen having a SBR, SBS, suppressor, subgun, etc. I am a citizen an I personally own some of those items. The problem is you want to blame the police for the current govt restrictions. You do realize that police have no control over that right? I am a believer in personal responsibility. I believe that people should be held accountable for their actions individually. You thinking that the police should not have their tools because you can't have them is stupid. Why do you want a police officer to go into a situation with less than they need. I don't know you or your background so I do t know if you have ever been in the military or an armed encounter, but I know I have on many occasions. I have and do run to the threat, and I am thankful I have the tools and training to protect you and me.

Then you've apparently never seen politicians flank themselves with CLEO's EVERY time they want to restict the rights of citizens. The dutiful lapdog rarely fails to stand on the dais and represent rank and file officers while demanding new laws to "curb violence".

As for running to, I'm right there with you. I've been involved in the military and LE fields for 29 years. I have no issues whatsoever with LE having all the neat toys they'll rarely, if ever truly need. I do have a problem with them having anything their "leaders" expressly forbid their citizens/subjects from having. That means, in NYC, they should have billy clubs until Bloomberg allows New York City residents to keep guns for defense. In NJ, cops shouldn't have hollow points or magazines over 10 rounds. In CA, patrol rifles should be neutered with fixed stocks and bullet buttons. If you don't want to work under the same restrictions as the citizens you police, then move or don't be LE.

My agency issues me a Glock 21C with three 13rd mags. I'm issued soft body armor and authorized a personally owned AR-15 type patrol rifle. As a citizen in my jurisdiction, I have a suppressed, RR Colt M16A1 and Level IV ceramic armor. I support armed law abiding citizens 100%. I have no ethical dilemmas in the opinions I'm expressing here. Not everyone can say the same. :(

[NCPatrolAR]

Ok, I should have called it an evidence warrant, perhaps....

search warrant

[glockshooter]

Then you've apparently never seen politicians flank themselves with CLEO's EVERY time they want to restict the rights of citizens. The dutiful lapdog rarely fails to stand on the dais and represent rank and file officers while demanding new laws to "curb violence".

As for running to, I'm right there with you. I've been involved in the military and LE fields for 29 years. I have no issues whatsoever with LE having all the neat toys they'll rarely, if ever truly need. I do have a problem with them having anything their "leaders" expressly forbid their citizens/subjects from having. That means, in NYC, they should have billy clubs until Bloomberg allows New York City residents to keep guns for defense. In NJ, cops shouldn't have hollow points or magazines over 10 rounds. In CA, patrol rifles should be neutered with fixed stocks and bullet buttons. If you don't want to work under the same restrictions as the citizens you police, then move or don't be LE.

My agency issues me a Glock 21C with three 13rd mags. I'm issued soft body armor and authorized a personally owned AR-15 type patrol rifle. As a citizen in my jurisdiction, I have a suppressed, RR Colt M16A1 and Level IV ceramic armor. I support armed law abiding citizens 100%. I have no ethical dilemmas in the opinions I'm expressing here. Not everyone can say the same. :(

A lot of the stuff you wrote is the exact same thing I said. The only place we differ is you think it is okay to punish or restrict the police officers in certain jurisdictions simply because they have idiots in charge. As a fellow officer how can you say that NYPD officers should just have clubs? What did those officers do? What could they do to change the laws in NYC? As I have said before, I believe all law abiding citizens should have unrestricted access to all the current NFA type weapons. Because it is a actions that are to blame not the gun.

[MountainRaven]

A lot of the stuff you wrote is the exact same thing I said. The only place we differ is you think it is okay to punish or restrict the police officers in certain jurisdictions simply because they have idiots in charge. As a fellow officer how can you say that NYPD officers should just have clubs? What did those officers do? What could they do to change the laws in NYC? As I have said before, I believe all law abiding citizens should have unrestricted access to all the current NFA type weapons. Because it is a actions that are to blame not the gun.

They live in New York and they are part of a union, a union that they can lean on to apply pressure on the government of New York.

There is no punishment. It's simply a privilege being taken away.

[glocktogo]

A lot of the stuff you wrote is the exact same thing I said. The only place we differ is you think it is okay to punish or restrict the police officers in certain jurisdictions simply because they have idiots in charge. As a fellow officer how can you say that NYPD officers should just have clubs? What did those officers do? What could they do to change the laws in NYC? As I have said before, I believe all law abiding citizens should have unrestricted access to all the current NFA type weapons. Because it is a actions that are to blame not the gun.

Hmm, let's see...

Union Strike
Vote of No Confidence
Blue Flu
Mass refusal to arrest recordless citizens for firearms infractions (see Colorado sheriff's), etc., etc. :confused:

Keep in mind that every law against gun ownership has a neatly carved exemption for law enforcement. In many, many cases, that exemption is there specifically because police unions and CLEO's demanded it before they would endorse and support passage of those laws. By that fact alone, they are contributing to the delinquency of a legislative body. If it truly bothered more than a majority of LEO's in those repressive jurisdictions, they wouldn't have those laws on the books at all. :(

[Irish]

Hmm, let's see...

Union Strike
Vote of No Confidence
Blue Flu
Mass refusal to arrest recordless citizens for firearms infractions (see Colorado sheriff's), etc., etc. :confused:

Keep in mind that every law against gun ownership has a neatly carved exemption for law enforcement. In many, many cases, that exemption is there specifically because police unions and CLEO's demanded it before they would endorse and support passage of those laws. By that fact alone, they are contributing to the delinquency of a legislative body. If it truly bothered more than a majority of LEO's in those repressive jurisdictions, they wouldn't have those laws on the books at all. :(

Truer words...

[Belloc]

Rise of the Warrior Cop
Is it time to reconsider the militarization of American policing?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323848804578608040780519904.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

[RalphK.]

Hmm, let's see...

Union Strike
Vote of No Confidence
Blue Flu
Mass refusal to arrest recordless citizens for firearms infractions (see Colorado sheriff's), etc., etc. :confused:

Keep in mind that every law against gun ownership has a neatly carved exemption for law enforcement. In many, many cases, that exemption is there specifically because police unions and CLEO's demanded it before they would endorse and support passage of those laws. By that fact alone, they are contributing to the delinquency of a legislative body. If it truly bothered more than a majority of LEO's in those repressive jurisdictions, they wouldn't have those laws on the books at all. :(

Just to clear something up for the non LEO's...Police Unions striking are illegal and in violation of their contracts.

[Hootiewho]

I wouldn't be as disturbed if the type of officer being hired these days wasn't eye opening as it has been lately.


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


There is so much truth to this statement and IMHO is the root of the issue, not what gear the cops have. Especially when those who have no business going up the chain of command, get a ride up the chain of command because of substandard performance where they were. When these types get into shot calling positions is when you have issues. I'm not going into any more detail than that, but this is the problem, folks who have no regard for the constitution or doing the job as it should be done, not the cool guy kit.

The bad thing is a few bad apples ruin it for all the good guys who spend a career doing it right.

[streck]

From Sarasota, Fl....Pay attention to the police officer's words, his attitude,,,,LINK (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130718/COLUMNIST/130719612/0/MULTIMEDIA)



After leaving her operating room scrub nurse duties at Sarasota's Doctors Hospital on Wednesday, Louise Goldsberry went to her Hidden Lake Village apartment.

Her boyfriend came over, and after dinner — about 8 p.m. — Goldsberry went to her kitchen sink to wash some dishes.

That's when her boyfriend, Craig Dorris — a manager for a security alarm company — heard her scream and saw her drop to the floor.

Goldsberry, 59, said she had looked up from the sink to see a man “wearing a hunting vest.”

He was aiming a gun at her face, with a red light pinpointing her.

“I screamed and screamed,” she said.

But she also scrambled across the floor to her bedroom and grabbed her gun, a five-shot .38-caliber revolver. Goldsberry has a concealed weapons permit and says the gun has made her feel safer living alone. But she felt anything but safe when she heard a man yelling to open the door.

He was claiming to be a police officer, but the man she had seen looked to her more like an armed thug. Her boyfriend, Dorris, was calmer, and yelled back that he wanted to see some ID.

But the man just demanded they open the door. The actual words, the couple say, were, “We're the f------ police; open the f------ door.”

Dorris said he moved away from the door, afraid bullets were about to rip through.

Goldsberry was terrified but thinking it just might really be the police. Except, she says she wondered, would police talk that way? She had never been arrested or even come close. She couldn't imagine why police would be there or want to come in. But even if they did, why would they act like that at her apartment? It didn't seem right.

Then, to the couple's horror — and as Goldsberry huddled in the hallway with gun in hand — the front door they had thought was locked pushed open. A man edged around the corner and pointed a gun and a fiercely bright light at them, and yelled even more.

“Drop the f------ gun or I'll f------ shoot you,” he shouted, then said it again and again, Goldsberry and Dorris say.

Goldsberry was screaming, but Dorris was the calmer one. He could see the armed man was holding a tactical shield for protection. Some zealous gun thug could have one, but, though it was hard to see much, Dorris decided this guy looked well enough equipped to be a cop on a serious felony raid.

Dorris remained frozen and kept his hands in sight. He saw more people outside, and decided it probably was a police action. But he started fearing that in this case that was not much better than a home invasion. With his freaked out girlfriend and the macho commando-style intruder aiming at each other and shouting, someone could be dead at any second.

Dorris told the man at the door he would come outside and talk to them. When he got permission and walked out slowly, hands up, he was amazed at what he saw as he was quickly grabbed and handcuffed.

The cop at the door, and some others, had words on their clothes identifying them as federal marshals, but there were numerous Sarasota Police officers, too, and others he couldn't identify, though his security company job involves work with police.

More than two dozen officers, maybe more than 30, were bustling around, many in tactical jackets.

It was like nothing he had ever seen.

“It was a Rambo movie,” Dorris said.

Soon Dorris yelled to his girlfriend that it was OK to drop the gun and come out, but Goldsberry was too afraid.

She had been yelling, “I'm an American citizen” and saying they had no right to do this. Their standoff continued several more minutes.

Then she set the gun down and walked out, shaking and crying, and also was quickly handcuffed.

They remained cuffed for close to half an hour as the apartment was searched for a wanted man who wasn't there, never had been, and who was totally unknown to them.

They were shown his picture.

Then they were released, the police left, and that was that.

The officer's story

Matt Wiggins was the man at the door.

He's with the U.S. Marshal's fugitive division.

I asked him what happened. He said they had a tip that a child-rape suspect was at the complex.

That suspect, Kyle Riley, was arrested several hours later in another part of Sarasota.

The tip was never about Goldsberry's apartment, specifically, Wiggins acknowledged. It was about the complex.

But when the people in Goldsberry's apartment didn't open up, that told Wiggins he had probably found the right door. No one at other units had reacted that way, he said.

Maybe none of them had a gun pointed at them through the kitchen window, I suggested. But Wiggins didn't think that was much excuse for the woman's behavior. He said he acted with restraint and didn't like having that gun aimed at him.

“I went above and beyond,” Wiggins said. “I have to go home at night.”

Goldsberry was at home, I said. She had a gun pointed at her, too, and she wasn't wearing body armor and behind a shield. She had no reason to expect police or think police would ever aim into her kitchen and cuss at her through her door to get in. It seemed crazy. She was panicked.

“We were clearly the police,” Wiggins insisted. “She can't say she didn't know.”

She does say so, actually.

“I couldn't see them. They had a big light in my eyes,” Goldsberry said the next day. And that man she saw aiming a gun through her window had nothing visible that said “cop,” in her mind.

“I was thinking, is this some kind of nutjob?”

No, just a well-trained officer who knows how to go after a man assumed to be a dangerous felon, but isn't so good at understanding a frightened woman confronted with an aggressive armed stranger coming after her in her own home.

“I feel bad for her,” Wiggins conceded, finally. “But at the same time, I had to reasonably believe the bad guy was in her house based on what they were doing.”

Goldsberry wasn't arrested or shot despite pointing a gun at a cop, so Wiggins said, “She sure shouldn't be going to the press.”

[austinN4]

From Sarasota, Fl....Pay attention to the police officer's words, his attitude,,,,LINK (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130718/COLUMNIST/130719612/0/MULTIMEDIA)
The reader comments to that news story are worth reading.

[SteveS]

I can agree somewhat. There is a greater chance statistically of drowning in your own bathtub than being killed by an extremist threat. I'm not willing to give my rights away to be protected from the Boogey-man this government has created.You don't have much of a choice about it.

[jpmuscle]

You don't have much of a choice about it.

One only has to look at the recent failure in the House the curb continuation of NSA surveillance operations in an effort under the guise of national security to see just how futile any sort of effort to reduce government power and overreach really is.... sad. Terrifyingly sad..