View Full Version : The liability of graphics, engravings, and other personal cosmetic touches
What is your opinion on cosmetically customized rifles? I'm not referring to any customization that serves a legitimate physical purpose, such as a fore grip, or any specific color scheme, including camouflage. What I am curious about is your opinion on the liabilities, if any, of adding personal touches to a weapon you may one day need to use for self defense - including graphics, emblems, and engravings. While it does not seem to be as prevalent here on M4C as some other groups (which may be what they call a "clue"), I have still seen numerous members customize their defensive rifles with things like Arabic graphics that say "infidel", "Molon Labe" scrawled across hand guards and butt stocks, punisher logos, engraved dust covers, and laser engraved sayings like, "Smile, wait for flash." Has anyone considered the potential liabilities of doing so?
I'm personally considering adding a slight personal touch to a build I'm working on in the form of a laser engraved Bible verse in an inconspicuous area. I'm considering this both for the meaning of the verse as associated with the purpose of the rifle, and to easily identify it as mine without memorizing the serial number. It would be visible only if you tilted the rifle a certain way - similar to the placement of Noveske Chainsaw logos on their blemished products. If I ever had to use this rifle in self defense, what effect, if any, would this have on the odds of criminal charges being brought against me, and if they were, would it add any weight to the case?
I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts and opinions on this matter. Is it a legal misstep? Would my rifle simply be pronounced as having a alternate sexual preference by some of the more die hard members here? Or would it not have any effect at all?
Mine has all sorts of random stuff on it. I couldnt care any less about the thoughts of what the guy next to me has on my rifle, or what my thoughts are on his. That is his, and mine is mine. So long as it doesnt inhibit the function, or weaken the integrity...I say go for it.
If you plan on using your weapon for anything other than recreational shooting or use in a combat zone, you best think long and hard before adding any "social statements" to your weapons.
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/guns-appearances-matter
Liability really only comes into play if the wrong person gets shot (either unintentionally, or if one intends to shoot someone who didn't need shooting). Will an engraving on a carbine affect the gun's reliability? No. But...
Take our recent court case du jour. Suppose Zimmerman had a "Punisher" skull on the slide cover plate of his handgun, or "Infidel" written along the slide. It wouldn't matter one lick in court, but if there's any sort of race/ethnicity/foul play card to play, its not going to help any, especially that its now time for him to continue living his life in public.
Again, for this to be a factor, you have to actually have a shooting, and have an investigating entity, prosecutor, or other party that will make the info public. You also need a media that will latch onto such things, and a public that's at a fever fitch over race relations, justice inequality, etc. Unlikely, I know...;)
Personally, I'd make sure the quote is tasteful and, like you said, inconspicuous.
BrigandTwoFour
07-14-13, 18:14
It doesn't matter. The prosecution would probably try and use it to fuel an image they want to build of you. But they're going to do that anyway.
Have pictures of guns on your Facebook or photo sharing page? You're a crazy gun nut.
Have you sought out formal training? Then you are a wannabe killer trying to hone your craft.
Haven't gotten any formal training at all? You're too incompetent to own firearms and it was only a matter of time before you killed someone.
Browse gun message boards and pro-2A sites? You're a crazy racist anti-government militia type.
That said, there are probably some things that would be looked down upon worse than others.
Not worth it to me. Especially on an AR, where an uneducated person already thinks it just a killing machine.
If you plan on using your weapon for anything other than recreational shooting or use in a combat zone, you best think long and hard before adding any "social statements" to your weapons.
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/guns-appearances-matter
Thanks for the reply and the link. Interesting article, and I don't doubt the validity of the points made, but I'm not going to handicap myself with outdated technology - Sure you may be less likely to get prosecuted if you use a .38 Special and ball ammo, but you're also more likely to end up dead because those 6 shots didn't stop the attacker(s). I'll take my chances in court if it comes to that. But back on topic, I'm specifically asking about "social statements" (which is as good a name for them as anything) on an AR that may be utilized as a HD gun, not actual weapon or ammo choice. Just want to make that clear.
midSCarolina
07-14-13, 18:34
I don't think engravings on rifles are a good idea but I also do not seeing the engravings being a legal matter. If you don't already have them... don't do it. Just my opinion.
To each his own. Your gun is yours and you can customize it as you like. BUT, there is merit to the thought that it could come back to bite you. I, personally, would put nothing on a firearm that could in anyway be judged racial or bias. Rest in peace Kyle? Maybe! But there is a smartass lawyer out there who could make you a wannabe sniper because it wasn't a point blank shot and you were using a AR.
Again, for this to be a factor, you have to actually have a shooting, and have an investigating entity, prosecutor, or other party that will make the info public. You also need a media that will latch onto such things, and a public that's at a fever fitch over race relations, justice inequality, etc. Unlikely, I know...;)
Very unlikely. ;)
Personally, I'd make sure the quote is tasteful and, like you said, inconspicuous.
What I'm considering is a trigger guard with the following engraved on the underside:
"Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:4
Not as menacing as the punisher logo, or as malicious sounding as "Smile, wait for flash" but it's still a personal touch. I'm sure someone could try to twist it to paint me in a bad light, I'm just wondering how successful they would be. Thoughts?
PatrioticDisorder
07-14-13, 18:40
Liability really only comes into play if the wrong person gets shot (either unintentionally, or if one intends to shoot someone who didn't need shooting). Will an engraving on a carbine affect the gun's reliability? No. But...
Take our recent court case du jour. Suppose Zimmerman had a "Punisher" skull on the slide cover plate of his handgun, or "Infidel" written along the slide. It wouldn't matter one lick in court, but if there's any sort of race/ethnicity/foul play card to play, its not going to help any, especially that its now time for him to continue living his life in public.
Again, for this to be a factor, you have to actually have a shooting, and have an investigating entity, prosecutor, or other party that will make the info public. You also need a media that will latch onto such things, and a public that's at a fever fitch over race relations, justice inequality, etc. Unlikely, I know...;)
Personally, I'd make sure the quote is tasteful and, like you said, inconspicuous.
I beg to differ on the highlighted. It would add to motive, in the jurors' minds he's a wanna be vigilante with something like that on his gun.
I voted for it will get you lynched in court. Sure an obvious good shoot is just that but if there is any grey area, you aren't setting yourself up wisely. i'd pass with anything punisher, (infidel whatever might be ok) and I'd pass on the zombie shit, that will make you look immature and speak towards your maturity/decision-making.
Personally, I view markings and such as cheesy, similar to the zombie stuff. Self defense is a serious subject that requires serious tools. I definitely don't think they would help anyone's case. We've also seen lawyers & the media make mountains out of mole hills. Range toy... fine, but I'd leave it off an SD firearm.
Just my opinion & I'm not trying to offend anyone who has that stuff. To each, his own. It's just not for me though.
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Eurodriver
07-14-13, 18:49
I will never, ever put any customizations on any gun that could be used for self defense purposes. And since that's all of my guns - none of them are customized sans SBR engraving. (Which says "In God We Trust")
To all those who say "Well it can't be used against you"...whatever.
Imagine, as was said, if GZ had a punisher skull on his handgun. That would be plastered all over the news. While impossible to ever find out, I would be more than willing to bet that everything else remaining equal, having that on his gun would have resulted in at minimum a manslaughter conviction (i.e. 30 years in jail)
The prosecution in its opening statements made a big deal about how his gun was "concealed" (even though it is legally required to be concealed in Florida) and how he had a round in the chamber "Ready to kill".
You wanna put "Molon Labe" or some shit on your gun? Be my guest. The reward from having a custom gun does not outweigh the risk of jailtime or even public outrage for me.
Tonyparson
07-14-13, 19:11
I beg to differ on the highlighted. It would add to motive, in the jurors' minds he's a wanna be vigilante with something like that on his gun.
I voted for it will get you lynched in court. Sure an obvious good shoot is just that but if there is any grey area, you aren't setting yourself up wisely. i'd pass with anything punisher, (infidel whatever might be ok) and I'd pass on the zombie shit, that will make you look immature and speak towards your maturity/decision-making.
Could you imagine if Zimmerman would of had on a Concealed carry badge. The prosecution would've ripped him apart over that. :eek:
I voted, It won't make any difference either way. But I don't like stuff like that on any of my AR's or handguns.
F-Trooper05
07-14-13, 19:29
The Zimmerman trial should be a wake-up call for anyone considering putting silly shit on their serious-use guns. What looks cool on the Internet may not be so amusing to six soccer moms.
The prosecution in its opening statements made a big deal about how his gun was "concealed" (even though it is legally required to be concealed in Florida) and how he had a round in the chamber "Ready to kill".Do they have a transcript or video of this available?
The Zimmerman trial should be a wake-up call for anyone considering putting silly shit on their serious-use guns. What looks cool on the Internet may not be so amusing to six soccer moms.
This should also apply to what you wear. If you shoot someone at minimum you will be photographed if your clothes aren't bagged.
Voodoo_Man
07-14-13, 21:10
I think you guys are taking this a little too far.
What does it matter what it says as long as it isn't something along the lines of "skittle hunter" on zimmermans keltec.
If what brand or logo or phrase or picture you put on a specific item mattered then it would be the point of contention in every case. Who where wants to bet that if any of it mattered then the prosecution would bring up the vertx pants because tactical people wear them. The magpul iphone case, gun company affiliation? What about your screen saver on your phone or background? Have a gun as wallpaper, bad move buddy. Wait you wearing a bcm trucker cap when you lawfully defended yourself? Guess you are going to jail, guilty!
Seriously, less tinfoil.
Thanks for the reply and the link. Interesting article, and I don't doubt the validity of the points made, but I'm not going to handicap myself with outdated technology - Sure you may be less likely to get prosecuted if you use a .38 Special and ball ammo, but you're also more likely to end up dead because those 6 shots didn't stop the attacker(s). I'll take my chances in court if it comes to that. But back on topic, I'm specifically asking about "social statements" (which is as good a name for them as anything) on an AR that may be utilized as a HD gun, not actual weapon or ammo choice. Just want to make that clear.
Well aware of that. The commentary I posted goes to that matter as well. If they will go after you for a "modern weapon" what about a modern weapon with a "social statement"?
As for the tinfoil comment, stick you head in the sand on this one and you will pay a price if you go to court. Read about court cases on the subject and you will see how "tinfoil" it isn't.
Voodoo_Man
07-14-13, 21:22
Assuming the tinfoil comment was towards me.
I've seen cases where a firearm had markings. Not only did it not matter, but if a lawyer tells you it does he/shs doesn't know how to get around it.
Remember something, adding molon labe or whatever to your gun means nothing, how many guns like that are out there? Its not unique. Having "skittles hunter" laser engraved on your keltec and then shooting TM well that is a completely different story.
I think you guys are taking this a little too far.
What does it matter what it says as long as it isn't something along the lines of "skittle hunter" on zimmermans keltec.
If what brand or logo or phrase or picture you put on a specific item mattered then it would be the point of contention in every case. Who where wants to bet that if any of it mattered then the prosecution would bring up the vertx pants because tactical people wear them. The magpul iphone case, gun company affiliation? What about your screen saver on your phone or background? Have a gun as wallpaper, bad move buddy. Wait you wearing a bcm trucker cap when you lawfully defended yourself? Guess you are going to jail, guilty!
Seriously, less tinfoil.
I must've missed the post where someone said wearing a BCM hat would get you arrested. :confused: In fact, nobody brought up any brand or logos, just recommendations against putting stupid, ghetto inscriptions on the side of an SD firearm.
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Voodoo_Man
07-14-13, 21:27
I must've missed the post where someone said wearing a BCM hat would get you arrested. :confused: In fact, nobody brought up any brand or logos, just recommendations against putting stupid, ghetto inscriptions on the side of an SD firearm.
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I was making a point that brand recognition means nothing. Its specific negative markings that may get you in trouble.
Regardless of any liability issue. I don't play makeup any more with my hammer than any other tool in my house, including defensive firearms.
Aesthetics do come into play for non-defensive firearms, but I prefer to be subtle with it.
With the recent case in FL the prosecution will try to use any form of potential character flaw to vilify you in court.
I was making a point that brand recognition means nothing. Its specific negative markings that may get you in trouble.
Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I agree.
I'd still avoid the typical, "molon labe, zombie, front-towards-enemy," kind of crap.
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Take it from someone with grand jury experience: don't festoon your firearms with Punisher this or Molon Labe that.....
Very unlikely. ;)
What I'm considering is a trigger guard with the following engraved on the underside:
"Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:4
Not as menacing as the punisher logo, or as malicious sounding as "Smile, wait for flash" but it's still a personal touch. I'm sure someone could try to twist it to paint me in a bad light, I'm just wondering how successful they would be. Thoughts?
You must bs an ultra conservative, bible thumping, tea partying, gun nut.
Seriously though, as we have seen recently facts have little to due with liability in firesrms usage. Anything can be used by others or yourself to skew perception of the facts.
Why supply the ammo.
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goodoleboy
07-14-13, 21:48
I have pondered having some scripture verses (Book, Chapter: Verse) engraved on the carrying handle just under the rear sight or on the back of the charging handle. Here are some of my thoughts:
Psalms 18:2 (pretty close to Saving Private Ryan)
Psalms 23:4 (Sounds too much like a cliche)
Psalms 27:2 (more to my liking)
Psalms 91:5 (I like this one too)
Psalms 91:7 (a little morbid)
Isaiah 43:2 (indirect, but comforting)
Ezekiel 25:17 (I know it sounds too much like Pulp Fiction)
This again?
1st Statist: Look at this poll- It appears that there are many shooters that are afraid that if they engrave something silly on their weapon, it will weigh against them in court if used in self defense
2nd Statist: That's the problem- self defense is still legal. Most investigations never result in charges being filed. What's worse, many of these killers are protected from civil suits. We should do something
1st Statist: We should play on their fears. We'll suggest to the public that provocative engravings on evil black rifles are another warning sign the possessor is a terrorist
2nd Statist: Good idea- I'll hit that poll and feed their paranoia so they'll be afraid to ever make any kind of statement
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-15-13, 00:09
I'd still rather not have a far reaching prosecutor dragging me over the coals for a "Suprise, Cock Fag!" dust cover.
Remember something, adding molon labe or whatever to your gun means nothing, how many guns like that are out there? Its not unique. Having "skittles hunter" laser engraved on your keltec and then shooting TM well that is a completely different story.
So you're saying that in your opinion what matters in the level of uniqueness? So for example, the punisher logo or "molon labe", while arguably more menacing, would be less likely to land you in hot water because they are more common compared to something incredibly unique and seemingly harmless, should you manage to get yourself into an incredibly ironic situation? What if you have the arabic "infidel" on your rifle and someone of middle eastern descent attacks you, or you are attacked by a Muslim and happen to have a Bible verse on the weapon you used to defend yourself? Is that what you're getting at? I'm just trying to clarify...
You must bs an ultra conservative, bible thumping, tea partying, gun nut.
Aren't we all? It seems that if you belong to any "right wing" group, you automatically belong to them all. You forgot to add that I must hate gays, that seems to get lumped in there a lot too. Regardless, I don't want this thread to devolve into some of the rather unprofessional discussions that seem to thrive in the General Discussion forum... so lets try to stay on topic. I'm personally considering a Bible verse, but the topic is any "social statement" added to your defensive weapon, and how it might be viewed in court should you ever have to use it.
Mr. Greene
07-15-13, 00:29
For a serious social gun there is no way I would put anything on it that wasn't put there by the factory you just open a can of worms by adding something that a prosecutor could have a field day with.
That being said I have a training carbine that has some added touches but that rifle is only tasked with range use.
This again?
1st Statist: Look at this poll- It appears that there are many shooters that are afraid that if they engrave something silly on their weapon, it will weigh against them in court if used in self defense
2nd Statist: That's the problem- self defense is still legal. Most investigations never result in charges being filed. What's worse, many of these killers are protected from civil suits. We should do something
1st Statist: We should play on their fears. We'll suggest to the public that provocative engravings on evil black rifles are another warning sign the possessor is a terrorist
2nd Statist: Good idea- I'll hit that poll and feed their paranoia so they'll be afraid to ever make any kind of statement
Very interesting take on the matter! :)
While I'm normally not one to censor myself for "politically correctness" when something as trivial as this has the potential to contribute to a wrongful conviction, I have to consider it. I take it your opinion on the subject is that this mentality is contributing to the problem?
Sometimes we invent our own problems. I don't think there have been any cases of a clean self defense shooting that's been complicated by something provocative having been engraved on the rifle. If we start avoiding engravings for this reason and pressure others to do the same, it falls into the category of a solution in search of a problem. If we believe hard enough that it's a problem, then guess what? It becomes a problem we believed into existence.
Some of the engravings I've seen on dust covers I think are downright retarded. But it's not my job to tell anyone that.
It's easy to exercise our rights when there is no risk. It's easy to say "The King is a Fink!" when we know it's safe to do so. It's much tougher when someone will crack our heads for it- or when we think they will
(As an aside, this threads falls under one of my personal pet peeves- the silly use of a poll while discussing a silly subject that's been covered many times before)
Can anyone point to any factual cases of Tea Party dust covers or Molon Labe pistol grips causing someone to end up in court for a 100% clean shooting? We have had these discussions numerous times in the past.
It's same story when someone alleges that using an NFA weapon is going to land you in the big house. Or a high capacity magazine is proof intent to commit mass killings.
I feel strongly that if it's a clean shoot and you keep your mouth shut then you have nothing to worry about. OTOH if you are cruising the ghetto looking for crack and tranny hookers and you shoot their transgender pimp for staring at you the wrong way, then yeah, you might have a problem.
(As an aside, this threads falls under one of my personal pet peeves- the silly use of a poll while discussing a silly subject that's been covered many times before)
Sorry. I did an extensive search for various terms regarding the topic but wasn't able to find anything on the possible liabilities of a customized weapon... :sad:
While I do find most polls annoying and it's true this particular subject has been hashed out more than a few times, I was poking fun at myself with that aside. Please don't take it too seriously- better yet, figure out a clever way to turn it back on me
Voodoo_Man
07-15-13, 05:29
So you're saying that in your opinion what matters in the level of uniqueness? So for example, the punisher logo or "molon labe", while arguably more menacing, would be less likely to land you in hot water because they are more common compared to something incredibly unique and seemingly harmless, should you manage to get yourself into an incredibly ironic situation? What if you have the arabic "infidel" on your rifle and someone of middle eastern descent attacks you, or you are attacked by a Muslim and happen to have a Bible verse on the weapon you used to defend yourself? Is that what you're getting at? I'm just trying to clarify...
Realistically speaking, a clean/good shoot is just that, it does not matter what you have on your gun, your person, or otherwise, its all non-sense.
Now having "infidel" or a bible verse on your gun, may provide the wrong type of idea to some, but if it is widespread enough the "I bought my gun this way" line can and will work. If you add something very specific then you may need to go a little further to explain it.
Also, can you identify who is a Muslim or terrorist or Christian or a Jew? I cannot by looking at them unless they are wearing traditional clothing. So who know what the person you may or may not have to legally shoot is religiously? Does it matter? No.
vicious_cb
07-15-13, 05:37
I already have homosexual engraving on the side of my lowers, its called the spikes tactical rollmark. I guess thats the price of buying them in bulk for $95 a piece when they were on sale. I honestly dont care whats on the lower as long as its in spec and would actually prefer it if it didnt have anything except the serial number and safety selector markings.
I'd still rather not have a far reaching prosecutor dragging me over the coals for a "Suprise, Cock Fag!" dust cover.
I just about peed myself on that one. When I got my CHL in TX this subject came up. The school I went to actually had one of the assistant DAs come over and talk to us about shoots, self defense etc. The guy told us that if it is a clean obvious self defense shoot it won't matter. If it is a bad shoot they will try to crucify you.
Robb Jensen
07-15-13, 07:32
Using a rifle outside of your home is very very unlikely. That said if it's a good shoot (clearly justified) you'll have nothing to worry about. Bad shoot (questionable) everything will be looked at.
Boba Fett v2
07-15-13, 07:36
I'm not into skulls, witty catch phrases, off-the-wall color schemes or anything like that. I like my guns to look professional and purpose built. Not knocking the next guy who likes to put all that on their guns, but it's not for me. WRT liability issues, I suppose it could be used to cast-type you in some sort of negative way if it came down to it.
I respectfully disagree.
We're not talking about features or modifications that provide improved utility. NFA items increase utility in close confines (suppressors and shortened long guns). Standard capacity magazines provide extra ammo in the event of unanticipated variables, such as body armor or multiple attackers. In these cases, a defense attorney or you yourself can point to how the modification improved performance.
Can anyone point to any factual cases of Tea Party dust covers or Molon Labe pistol grips causing someone to end up in court for a 100% clean shooting? We have had these discussions numerous times in the past.
It's same story when someone alleges that using an NFA weapon is going to land you in the big house. Or a high capacity magazine is proof intent to commit mass killings.
I feel strongly that if it's a clean shoot and you keep your mouth shut then you have nothing to worry about. OTOH if you are cruising the ghetto looking for crack and tranny hookers and you shoot their transgender pimp for staring at you the wrong way, then yeah, you might have a problem.
The point that many of us are trying to get across is not that having some inscription on your dust cover will turn a good shoot into a bad one. What I (and others) am/are trying to convey is that in the case of a legit shooting that has some sort of cross racial/ethnic/cultural factor, or if the shooting has the tiniest amount of gray area in it, and if your inscription has something about that other group or has vigilante tones, then it can be used to assassinate your character in court, or in society outside of the courtroom.
Why make it easy for them? Make them work for it.
It's like having a "Personalized" license tag on a vehicle.
It makes you "That Guy"....:rolleyes:
I believe under certain circumstances it could be used against you in court but unlikely. Keep it clean and justified and you will be alright. Not my cup of tea though.
I believe WHERE you are matters here too. Have clean shoot in a small Southern town where the sheriff has known you since you were a boy scout, and that "punisher" logo won't even be a factor. Have a 100% justifiable, self-defense shoot while legally carrying in Oakland, CA, with a "punisher" emblem on your gun and it will be like throwing gasoline on a fire. We can argue that there shouldn't be a "fire" all day long, but sadly, this is the way it is now. If the GZ case didn't convince you of this, nothing will.
All of my SD and carry guns are BOX STOCK. I carry them that way, I practice with them that way, and I take my classes with them that way. Same with my defensive ammo. I use regular old off the shelf HPs from known and reputable companies.
It is an undeniable FACT that in SOME circumstances, however rare or unlikely, having certain "personal touches" on your gun COULD lead to persecution, prosecution or conviction, where the "plain jane" gun will not give them any more "ammo" to use against you as they attempt to cast their lies and dispersions about your character and/or mindset.
I'll be keeping my defensive weapons plain and unadorned.
I believe WHERE you are matters here too. Have clean shoot in a small Southern town where the sheriff has known you since you were a boy scout, and that "punisher" logo won't even be a factor. Have a 100% justifiable, self-defense shoot while legally carrying in Oakland, CA, with a "punisher" emblem on your gun and it will be like throwing gasoline on a fire. We can argue that there shouldn't be a "fire" all day long, but sadly, this is the way it is now. If the GZ case didn't convince you of this, nothing will.
All of my SD and carry guns are BOX STOCK. I carry them that way, I practice with them that way, and I take my classes with them that way. Same with my defensive ammo. I use regular old off the shelf HPs from known and reputable companies.
It is an undeniable FACT that in SOME circumstances, however rare or unlikely, having certain "personal touches" on your gun COULD lead to persecution, prosecution or conviction, where the "plain jane" gun will not give them any more "ammo" to use against you as they attempt to cast their lies and dispersions about your character and/or mindset.
I'll be keeping my defensive weapons plain and unadorned.
How do you carry in California?
Army Chief
07-15-13, 09:22
If the wisest course of action is to be the "invisible man," and we acknowledge that anything we say or do can be used against us in court, then I would think the wisdom of keeping things fairly sterile would be self-evident. These kinds of self-expression questions never have definitive answers, and only serve to polarize the "in your face" crowd from the cautious and contemplative.
Whether or not there is case law to back it up, I think there is a difference between purposeful customization/configuration and the inclusion of decorative statements or themes. I can defend a light and a sling. Take me down the path of why I chose to permanently inscribe "Punisher" or some-such on my rifle, and you're taking me someplace that I really don't want to go, because that makes it about me as a person, rather than the facts of the case.
If it's aggressive, you're a premeditated killer. If it's humorous, you're indifferent to human life. If it's religious, you're a right-wing extremist looking for his holy war. If it's obscure, you're an odd, brooding sociopath. If it's zombie-related, you're delusional and unstable. If it's historical, you're anti-government and probably racist. If it's macabre, you're a psychopath and a satanist. Basically, about the only thing I think you can get away with safely is a service-related shield or crest ... but then you have PTSD. Remember, a thing needn't be true, or even steeped in reality, for it to impact a jury's impression of who you are, and what your state of mind must have been.
Why give them anything to go on at all?
AC
I would not add anything that might be used against me in court or by mudslingers. JMO.. Ron
.46caliber
07-15-13, 09:59
AC, my thoughts to a "T".
I'll add that it's kind of a bummer that in light of our current society, this is the way we must think to protect us and ours.
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We should be able to decorate our firearms without predjudice, but
that is not the current social climate.
I prefer "clean" anyway and would recommend others keep it clean even though it should not be that way.
Just not worth the risk.
How do you carry in California?
Outside of L.A. County and San Fran, most Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs will issue CCWs. Every county surrounding Los Angeles will issue them. Orange, San Gabriel, Kern, Riverside, etc. a permit issued anywhere in CA is valid everywhere in CA. I know several people who have them. We are a "may issue" state.
The vast majority of the land mass of CA is filled with right leaning people. We are just outnumbered by the concentration of people who live in the two big cities. In the last presidential election, the only state that had more right voting voters was Texas. And only by a couple hundred thousand voters if memory serves.
So engraving a dove or a peace symbol on your SD weapon would be a good idea?
Army Chief
07-15-13, 13:18
So engraving a dove or a peace symbol on your SD weapon would be a good idea?
A little too ironic, don't you think? -- Alanis Morissette
AC
So engraving a dove or a peace symbol on your SD weapon would be a good idea?
A little too ironic, don't you think? -- Alanis Morissette
AC
"I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man" -Joker, Full Metal Jacket
Well we can all disagree which is the beauty of it. Fortunately my KKK dust cover broke and I put something less insidious in its place.:rolleyes:
I respectfully disagree.
We're not talking about features or modifications that provide improved utility. NFA items increase utility in close confines (suppressors and shortened long guns). Standard capacity magazines provide extra ammo in the event of unanticipated variables, such as body armor or multiple attackers. In these cases, a defense attorney or you yourself can point to how the modification improved performance.
The point that many of us are trying to get across is not that having some inscription on your dust cover will turn a good shoot into a bad one. What I (and others) am/are trying to convey is that in the case of a legit shooting that has some sort of cross racial/ethnic/cultural factor, or if the shooting has the tiniest amount of gray area in it, and if your inscription has something about that other group or has vigilante tones, then it can be used to assassinate your character in court, or in society outside of the courtroom.
Why make it easy for them? Make them work for it.
Boba Fett v2
07-15-13, 15:04
If the wisest course of action is to be the "invisible man," and we acknowledge that anything we say or do can be used against us in court, then I would think the wisdom of keeping things fairly sterile would be self-evident. These kinds of self-expression questions never have definitive answers, and only serve to polarize the "in your face" crowd from the cautious and contemplative.
Whether or not there is case law to back it up, I think there is a difference between purposeful customization/configuration and the inclusion of decorative statements or themes. I can defend a light and a sling. Take me down the path of why I chose to permanently inscribe "Punisher" or some-such on my rifle, and you're taking me someplace that I really don't want to go, because that makes it about me as a person, rather than the facts of the case.
If it's aggressive, you're a premeditated killer. If it's humorous, you're indifferent to human life. If it's religious, you're a right-wing extremist looking for his holy war. If it's obscure, you're an odd, brooding sociopath. If it's zombie-related, you're delusional and unstable. If it's historical, you're anti-government and probably racist. If it's macabre, you're a psychopath and a satanist. Basically, about the only thing I think you can get away with safely is a service-related shield or crest ... but then you have PTSD. Remember, a thing needn't be true, or even steeped in reality, for it to impact a jury's impression of who you are, and what your state of mind must have been.
Why give them anything to go on at all?
AC
Spot on. But what if I engrave a peace symbol on my guns? Or what catagory does the Hello Kitty AR fit under?:p
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/119/4f04abfdfc27489f9239f931c05f411f/l.jpg
Mall_Ninja
07-15-13, 15:18
I look at it this way, if the net gain equals ZERO yet the "possible penalty" of liability exists strongly, then WHY risk it???
One of the reasons I paint many of my guns FDE is to make it "less scary" looking. I have actually asked many different people in different situations questions like (keep in mind these are not gun people, most of them dont even own a gun) which one of "these" rifles do you think is more dangerous/deadly. You would be surprised almost all of them point at my black M&P 15-22 instead of of my "brown" 7.62 AR, even though its much "larger" in size. These are the types of people likely to be on a jury...
Army Chief
07-15-13, 16:05
Spot on. But what if I engrave a peace symbol on my guns? Or what catagory does the Hello Kitty AR fit under?:p
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/119/4f04abfdfc27489f9239f931c05f411f/l.jpg
Dude, don't be ridiculous. Everybody knows that if you have to defend yourself with a Hello Kitty rifle, you were truly in a situation of last-resort, and it is pretty much automatically ruled a good shoot. ;)
AC
Remember, a thing needn't be true, or even steeped in reality, for it to impact a jury's impression of who you are, and what your state of mind must have been.
Why give them anything to go on at all?
AC
Sadly, I think AC hit it on the head. In our increasingly liberal society, any, and I mean ANY opening that you give to someone is going to be exploited to the fullest extent possible. And remember, the folks that are going to eat it up, and then eat you up, are not going to be guys you took your last training class with, they're going to be the same sheeple that are complaining and protesting about the Zimmerman case today.
ColtSeavers
07-15-13, 16:18
I think of this the same way I do tattoos. It is not for me, though I have no personal bias for or against it, until it becomes or is done in a specifically derogatory way. An example would be that I have no problem with a dust cover that says "Send it!", the punisher skull or "Let it rain!", however, I would have a problem with a dust cover that said "Kill [insert race/religion/etc.]" or had a swastika on it.
WickedWillis
07-15-13, 17:30
I had a guy today that got all pissed at me for making a comment about his stippled Glock. I wasn't trying to be offensive, or rude I was just giving him a heads-up from one gun lover to another.
Re: **Firearm Stippling & Custom work** 1/2 OFF!!!!!!
Sent: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:41 pm
From: triggerslemp
To: WickedWillis
Subject: **Firearm Stippling & Custom work** 1/2 OFF!!!!!!
WickedWillis wrote:
Work looks great just pray you never have to use that in a self defense situation.
Penta wrote:
Another Great Job by Triggerslemp. Thanks Brent!
http://i43.tinypic.com/2uyq5q1.jpg
Really stud, why wouldn't you want to use it? I'm sure you have no training and talking out you ass! I have held/shot this and It would be just fine! So feel free to keep you comments to yourself!
triggerslemp
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:52 pm
Boba Fett v2
07-15-13, 19:40
Dude, don't be ridiculous. Everybody knows that if you have to defend yourself with a Hello Kitty rifle, you were truly in a situation of last-resort, and it is pretty much automatically ruled a good shoot. ;)
AC
I better paint my HD and CC guns in this color scheme then. ;)
Jargonhead
07-15-13, 20:11
As much as we all respect the 2nd Amendment, wouldn't these 'modifications' be protected by the 1st Amendment?
Rob
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/119/4f04abfdfc27489f9239f931c05f411f/l.jpg
I'm surprised it took three pages for Hello Kitty to show up. ;)
As to the original question...no logos/mottos/cosmetics here. Not judging; just not my style.
I was a juror on a high profile case that lasted several weeks. The biggest thing I took away from the experience is the understanding of the business of putting people in jail.
The state is not on your side. They will try to bring up anything that supports their case no matter how irrelevant and look to dismiss anything that heavily supports your defense if possible.
I'm not sure about you but I know the state's legal fund is far larger than mine. I would separate any personal ideologies or feelings from my weapons because it will be scrutinized. Imo, its just not worth it. As long as you keep true to it, you don't need to advertise it.
and to easily identify it as mine without memorizing the serial number.
First thing you do as a Marine when you're issued your rifle is memorize the serial number, it's really not an insurmountable task.
First thing you do as a Marine when you're issued your rifle is memorize the serial number, it's really not an insurmountable task.
You could also take pictures of them with your phone and email them to yourself.
A lot of really well thought out opinions here! Thanks for all the replies. Also a big thanks to everyone for staying on topic and not turning this into an argument! :smile:
First thing you do as a Marine when you're issued your rifle is memorize the serial number, it's really not an insurmountable task.
I didn't mean to imply that it was. My original thinking was that it would be a quick and easy way to ID multiple rifles, adding the same engraving or graphic to all of them in the same spot. Marines (and other service members) generally only have one rifle and one sidearm to keep track off, so memorizing two serial numbers and keeping them straight isn't real hard. I think it's safe to say that the personal collections of the majority of M4C members exceeds that number by a fair amount, to the point where memorizing serial numbers and remembering which number goes to which gun may not be as feasible. Again, it was just my thought for a way to quickly ID the gun as mine. I do record the make, model, serial number, purchase date, etc... of all of my firearms and recommend doing the same.
I don't have graphics on my rifle/gear.
Why?
I do not "embrace the suck". I am not "a gunfighter". I did not "deploy anywhere".
Had I chosen to join the military/LE/etc., I would have, but since I did not, I am not going to run around with stickers proclaiming or insinuating otherwise.
However, to those who did, those slogans and symbols have meaning. If they want to put them on their rifles, whatever. When asked about it: "It reminds me of the time I spent in Iraq, where I trusted my carbine to help me defend myself, just as the weapon I used that night in self-defense was one I had chosen to trust to defend myself." is a pretty hard thing to pick apart I would think, and would make sense.
_____________________________
That being said, *insert Deity* help you if you ever shoot a homosexual with an M4 which has "Surprise Cockfag!" on the ejection-port cover.
richiecotite
07-16-13, 13:22
most graphics/personalizations only help identifying douchelords with ease.
Maybe if people were scared into thinking that Arabic infidel sticker and punisher skull stippled in the side of your pmag might be used by prosecutors if you had to use it, more people wouldn't add that crap.
Army Chief
07-16-13, 13:46
I don't have graphics on my rifle/gear.
Why?
I do not "embrace the suck". I am not "a gunfighter". I did not "deploy anywhere".
Had I chosen to join the military/LE/etc., I would have, but since I did not, I am not going to run around with stickers proclaiming or insinuating otherwise.
However, to those who did, those slogans and symbols have meaning. If they want to put them on their rifles, whatever. When asked about it: "It reminds me of the time I spent in Iraq, where I trusted my carbine to help me defend myself, just as the weapon I used that night in self-defense was one I had chosen to trust to defend myself." is a pretty hard thing to pick apart I would think, and would make sense.
_____________________________
That being said, *insert Deity* help you if you ever shoot a homosexual with an M4 which has "Surprise Cockfag!" on the ejection-port cover.
Well said.
I think the underlying point to all of this is that, in a court of law, you have no friends. By this, I mean that no one there actually knows you, and they are getting acquainted with you under the worst of all possible circumstances. For this reason, you can pretty much forget about getting the "benefit of the doubt" or extra credit for being a nice guy. They will judge you by your appearance, listen to what the prosecutors and the defense have to say about who you are, pay lukewarm attention to a few witnesses, and they will doubtless observe your conduct and reactions while in the courtroom, but that's about it. They simply have no other basis upon which to form an inherently sympathetic or favorable opinion, and they probably don't want to be sitting there in the first place.
That's why I get fairly quiet when a topic like this comes up, because there are more important things involved with self-defense than being able to express yourself. When you've just been involved in a shooting, and you are quite literally trying not to pee down your own leg while giving the responding officer your name and address, the last thing you need is to be wondering if anyone is going to notice that you have been running up a nice tab over at www.milspecmonkey.com.
AC
Not to trivialize the OP’s question, but here’s the problem: you can’t predict the future.
Prosecutors are just like everyone else … some are pro-gun, some are anti, some are in the middle. The prosecutor’s job is supposed to be to seek the truth, but what it often really is, is to get a conviction. I’ve seen more and more cases lately of prosecutorial misconduct … failing to reveal exculpatory evidence, failing to fully investigate, etc. If you are involved in a shooting, will you get an honest, open-minded prosecutor who will fully investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident? Does he have the staff to do that? Will he look at alternative theories? Will he promptly turn over all exculpatory material? Or will you get some liberal crusader who will just try to hang your ass? You don’t know.
Let’s say that today, you have a logo engraved on one of your range or match guns (AR, M700, Glock, Colt Single Action Army, MP5, whatever … doesn’t matter). You have no intention of ever using it except at the range/in a match/etc. But tomorrow, or two months or ten years from now, for whatever reason, you use that firearm defensively, in a righteous shooting. You live in a politically conservative area, and the local prosecutor is pro-gun, so no problem ...
… except that the incident occurred in a large metropolitan area which has a "progressive" prosecutor's office ... you’re a WASP … the guy you shot is from the Middle East (it doesn’t matter whether you knew that, and it doesn’t matter if his family has been in this country for generations) … and the logo on your gun says “Infidel.”
Oops. You’re screwed.
As AC said,
If the wisest course of action is to be the "invisible man," and we acknowledge that anything we say or do can be used against us in court, then I would think the wisdom of keeping things fairly sterile would be self-evident. These kinds of self-expression questions never have definitive answers, and only serve to polarize the "in your face" crowd from the cautious and contemplative.
…
If it's aggressive, you're a premeditated killer. If it's humorous, you're indifferent to human life. If it's religious, you're a right-wing extremist looking for his holy war. If it's obscure, you're an odd, brooding sociopath. If it's zombie-related, you're delusional and unstable. If it's historical, you're anti-government and probably racist. If it's macabre, you're a psychopath and a satanist. Basically, about the only thing I think you can get away with safely is a service-related shield or crest ... but then you have PTSD. Remember, a thing needn't be true, or even steeped in reality, for it to impact a jury's impression of who you are, and what your state of mind must have been.
Why give them anything to go on at all?
By the way, did GZ win? The good news is, he won’t be going to prison … yet. But his legal fees were probably in 6 figures, and last I heard the feds were considering charging him with a civil rights suit. So he’s still in deep kimche.
Freedoooom
07-18-13, 01:41
Let me play this game.
FDE=militant? OD Green in green Florida=better for stalking victims?
Hollow point=aggressive. FMJ=Military bullet. OTM=Military bullet. Buckshot=Aggressive.
Subscribes to TNoutdoors9=Bad guy researching for more deadly bullets.
The gun has no effect on the act. If a felon shoots someone in self defense, not being allowed to own a gun doesn't make it murder.
Army Chief
07-18-13, 09:10
Let me play this game.
Understand where you are coming from, but you are also describing factory configurations or options for the most part, rather than highly-personal or individual customization choices made after the fact.
Not quite the same ball game.
AC
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t106/chorizo_2007/lawdegree.jpg (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/chorizo_2007/media/lawdegree.jpg.html)
3ACR_Scout
07-18-13, 20:23
Hollow point=aggressive. FMJ=Military bullet. OTM=Military bullet. Buckshot=Aggressive.
While I generally try to avoid overthinking these sorts of topics, one piece of advice struck a chord with me a decade or so ago: find out what your local law enforcement officers (or state police) carry as their defensive ammunition and Carry it yourself. It's hard for anyone to argue with you choosing the same brand and type of ammo that has been tested and approved by your local government. For example, it was Speer Gold Dots when I lived in Texas, which I was very comfortable with from a performance standpoint.
Dave
A note. Any thing you say or do "can and will" be used against you in a court of law. Read the Miranda Warning.
I've read it to a few. Then you write down what is said and the actions of the person and witnesses present. The DAs job is to build up the case in court against the defendant and sway the jury. A jury of "Your" peers not if the DA can help it.. 1. Its the ones unable to get out of jury duty. 2. Ones that have axe to grind? 3. Joe six-pack that's being kept away from tv. Ect. Ect. The choice is up to you, talking to a defense and prosecuting lawyers could be a better way of knowing can happen.
IMHO
And no I didn't stay in a holiday inn last night:D
Combat= OK, SD= ?
I've been carring firearms for a while. INF. 15 years, 3 of them doing PSD. Over 7 years as LEO.
Actually a smart person doesn't give any statement to the police. :nono:
A note. Any thing you say or do "can and will" be used against you in a court of law. Read the Miranda Warning.
I've read it to a few. Then you write down what is said and the actions of the person and witnesses present. The DAs job is to build up the case in court against the defendant and sway the jury. A jury of "Your" peers not if the DA can help it.. 1. Its the ones unable to get out of jury duty. 2. Ones that have axe to grind? 3. Joe six-pack that's being kept away from tv. Ect. Ect. The choice is up to you, talking to a defense and prosecuting lawyers could be a better way of knowing can happen.
IMHO
And no I didn't stay in a holiday inn last night:D
Combat= OK, SD= ?
I've been carring firearms for a while. INF. 15 years, 3 of them doing PSD. Over 7 years as LEO.
True but some just don't listen to the Miranda Warning. :confused: I've even told someone that they need to shut up.:D
I think it could be used against you if you had something racist, xenophobic, or murderous displayed on anything. I've seen confederate battle flags seized as evidence. I would think it harmless though to have a humorous or motivational saying inscribed or displayed. I don't engrave or apply stickers to my stuff, it's not my style. But it looks good on yours.
fishinnut1986
07-19-13, 10:58
Our 1stA was put there for this very reason with that being said I do have the battle flag on the back plate of my G-19 that I carry every day. I live in rual NC and had two great grandfathers fight in the 21st troop NC during the civil war. This for me is not a race thing it's more of respect where I came from thing. I've had to draw on a fellow trying to rob me in a gas station parking lot with a fish club but thankfully he ran and I did not have to shoot. I do not think the battle flag on my glock would have made one bit of difference if the situation did take a turn for the worse. And yes he was black but he also had a aluminum fish club so he could have been green or florescent orange and it would not have changed the outcome.
WickedWillis
07-19-13, 10:59
You aren't suggesting non-compliance, correct?
Actually a smart person doesn't give any statement to the police. :nono:
You aren't suggesting non-compliance, correct?
More likely he's recommending to stay quiet beyond the obvious "I was in fear for my life", and let your lawyer do the talking.
Our 1stA was put there for this very reason with that being said I do have the battle flag on the back plate of my G-19 that I carry every day. I live in rual NC and had two great grandfathers fight in the 21st troop NC during the civil war. This for me is not a race thing it's more of respect where I came from thing. I've had to draw on a fellow trying to rob me in a gas station parking lot with a fish club but thankfully he ran and I did not have to shoot. I do not think the battle flag on my glock would have made one bit of difference if the situation did take a turn for the worse. And yes he was black but he also had a aluminum fish club so he could have been green or florescent orange and it would not have changed the outcome.
I fully understand from where you are coming, and I'm not saying that you are wrong for honoring your heritage. I am saying that I have seen the battle flag seized as evidence, right or wrong.
Back in the mid 90's soldiers were forced to strip down to their underwear and were inspected for racist and gang related tattoos. The government approved list of bad tattoos included the confederate battle flag. Soldiers that had them had to justify those tattoos. And no, I'm not saying anything anti tattoo either.
On a side note most people don't know what the "Bars and Stars" is. It is not the battle flag, it was the first official national flag of the Confederacy. I see the Bars and Stars fly around here at the same frequency as UK or UofL flags.
Good first post.
fishinnut1986
07-19-13, 12:32
Thanks I forgot about that being my first post lol. I do understand what you are saying and it's sad that you are right. Anywho I will proudly carry it on my hip:)
So a Manufacture put a certain logo on my lower -then I should never use that gun for SD/HD or ever own it cause it could be used to portray me in a bad light? Really? Same with the -Never use reloads- BS! Well news flash- if your involved in an SD/HD shooting as we've seen in the GZ trial and they (DA) has it out for you your firearm or loads will be the least of your problems! Did the type of weapon and or ammo come up in the GZ trial? Nope!:rolleyes:
ColtSeavers
07-19-13, 17:34
So a Manufacture put a certain logo on my lower -then I should never use that gun for SD/HD or ever own it cause it could be used to portray me in a bad light? Really? Same with the -Never use reloads- BS! Well news flash- if your involved in an SD/HD shooting as we've seen in the GZ trial and they (DA) has it out for you your firearm or loads will be the least of your problems! Did the type of weapon and or ammo come up in the GZ trial? Nope!:rolleyes:
Flipside to this is that (AFAIK), GZ didn't have any markings on his gun what-so-ever (outside of factory ones). Hence why it (probably) did not come up during the trial.
As to what ammo was used, while that's not exactly on topic (along with reloading), outside of Hornady's 'Zombie max' ammo, I don't think there's any ammo being promoted for anything other than hunting, plinking or self defense (if it's even being promoted for anything to begin with). So again, that's (probably) why the ammo as well did not come up during the trial.
So a Manufacture put a certain logo on my lower -then I should never use that gun for SD/HD or ever own it cause it could be used to portray me in a bad light? Really? Same with the -Never use reloads- BS! Well news flash- if your involved in an SD/HD shooting as we've seen in the GZ trial and they (DA) has it out for you your firearm or loads will be the least of your problems! Did the type of weapon and or ammo come up in the GZ trial? Nope!:rolleyes:
The DOJ has set up a site so anyone can email them with information that would/could prove GZ was racist. How do you think it would play out in civil court?
When it's all over said and done, "Is it worth it".
To me? No! To whomever? Maybe.
If it ever became an issue, you'd kick yourself!
Some stuff like camo or benign markings are unlikely to be a issue but I wouldn't want to have to deal with the potential BS some markings could create. I think most of the random markings (often Internet memes) are retarded.
basically if you think it could possibly be used to paint you in a negative light, then don't do it. it is kind of sad that we even have to worry about this sort of thing... "oh he had a picture on his gun, he's a monster!"
HackerF15E
07-20-13, 07:35
Did the type of weapon and or ammo come up in the GZ trial? Nope!:rolleyes:
You apparently did not watch the opening couple of days of the prosecution case.
Yes, they did try and argue that there was something sinister about carrying a 9mm with one in the chamber, and that the KelTec was small enough to be concealed...and that it was concealed to begin with.
It was ridiculous...but it was part of the case.
Fortunately in the cross examination, that whole line of questioning was destroyed, but it was thrown out there.
You apparently did not watch the opening couple of days of the prosecution case.
Yes, they did try and argue that there was something sinister about carrying a 9mm with one in the chamber, and that the KelTec was small enough to be concealed...and that it was concealed to begin with.
It was ridiculous...but it was part of the case.
Fortunately in the cross examination, that whole line of questioning was destroyed, but it was thrown out there.
it was also questioned about the safety of him carrying a gun without an external safety. Nevermind the fact that most carry pieces do not have external safeties. Hence internal safeties + heavier trigger pull + holster.
Please refrain from carving notches on the butt of your gun. That can be, uh, misconstrued...
HackerF15E
07-20-13, 18:24
it was also questioned about the safety of him carrying a gun without an external safety. Nevermind the fact that most carry pieces do not have external safeties. Hence internal safeties + heavier trigger pull + holster.
In my opinion, the prosecution had to think that because it was all females on the jury, that they were not educated when it came to firearms and CCW.
Hence, they were trying to up the "scare factor" of the gun, as well as making it sound sinister that there was one in the pipe, that there was no safety, and that it was concealed.
Such tricks, despite the reputation of De La Rionda, aren't limited to that prosecutor or that case. IMHO, anything and everything that can be made to reflect poorly on the defendant will be leveraged to the max extent possible.
Unlike what Angela Corey said in the post-verdict press conference, defendants are not sent to trial "to get all the facts out there" -- that is why there are Grand Juries and Special Prosecutors. Trials are only commenced once the prosecution believes they can get a conviction, and their objective once the gavel comes down is to get that conviction. It is not to be fair...it is not to allow an honest presentation of the evidence...it is specifically to get a conviction.
IMHO, any feeling of paranoia that CCWers have about their firearm choice seems to be borne out by actual fact, and is a legitimate aspect to think about.
Remember something, adding molon labe or whatever to your gun means nothing, how many guns like that are out there? Its not unique.
How many of those weapons are involved in shootings and end up as evidence?
I tend to agree that you can take it to extremes, but maybe in some cases it is better safe than sorry.
A jury may be told not to consider something after an objection has been sustained, but they can't unhear it. A zealous prosecutor or defense attorney knows that.
My take is that you cant say absolutely one way or another.
I'm surprised it took three pages for Hello Kitty to show up. ;)
As to the original question...no logos/mottos/cosmetics here. Not judging; just not my style.
For the love of all that is good and holy if I have to die then I accept it but please, not by a hello kitty styled rifle.
Please refrain from carving notches on the butt of your gun. That can be, uh, misconstrued...
:sarcastic:
Thanks for the laugh.
For the love of all that is good and holy if I have to die then I accept it but please, not by a hello kitty styled rifle.
How about a Hello Kitty rifle with a guy holding it one handed in full gansta' style ?:cray:
In a climate where every action of gun use, even for self defense, is easily and publicly scrutinize, it may be prudent to keep personalized slogans off your weapon....just my opinion though. To some extent, you're free to do what you want when it comes to personalizing your prized possession.
ColtSeavers
So how many here have some pretty offensive tattoo's? Do you think the DA might try and use your body art against you? Might try an paint you as a racist for some of it? Or a gang member/biker? Or ex con? Maybe we need not to worry about stupid shit! Maybe we should work to get stand your ground laws passed in the other 20 states that don't have it ! Then if your involved in a good shoot you don't have to ever worry about getting into a court room! Cause when applied correctly you don't go to court!:rolleyes:
WickedWillis
07-24-13, 13:41
I agree. There are too many "Tier 1 operators" in the gun community that are giving actual enthusiasts a bad name. Having a shitty attitude, not respecting the current political climate, and just all around irresponsibility concerning the shit they slap on their guns it's obnoxious.
In a climate where every action of gun use, even for self defense, is easily and publicly scrutinize, it may be prudent to keep personalized slogans off your weapon....just my opinion though. To some extent, you're free to do what you want when it comes to personalizing your prized possession.
traindriver
07-24-13, 14:17
I don't have any at all on my weapons, however I have though about getting a dust cover with the American flag since I've served in the Military. Wonder what wise Prosecutor and Juror that would PO?? You never know in todays climate.
WickedWillis
07-24-13, 14:19
You'd probably get framed as a tea party member and have your taxes raised......
I don't have any at all on my weapons, however I have though about getting a dust cover with the American flag since I've served in the Military. Wonder what wise Prosecutor and Juror that would PO?? You never know in todays climate.
ColtSeavers
So how many here have some pretty offensive tattoo's? Do you think the DA might try and use your body art against you? Might try an paint you as a racist for some of it? Or a gang member/biker? Or ex con? Maybe we need not to worry about stupid shit! Maybe we should work to get stand your ground laws passed in th other 20 states that don't have it ! Then if your involved in a good shoot you don't have to ever worry about getting into a court room! Cause when applied correctly you don't go to court!:rolleyes:
Great point. All we need to do is get such laws passed, just like in Florida. That way we'll never have to worry about being dragged into court when we defend ourselves.
Oh...wait.
"Worrying about something" and considering possible consequences aren't the same thing. Want to get "Infidel" and "Justice" tattooed on your forearms? Go for it. Just do so knowing that in the highly unlikely event you're forced to shoot an attacker who happens to be Muslim you're going to have some 'splainin' to do.
I'll agree than getting wrapped around the axle over cosmetic gun modifications, tattoos, or modes of dress is a little silly given the very long odds that such things will ever come into play.
Nevertheless, I prefer to go through life without broadcasting my ideological views to the world. Others are free to do as they choose.
WickedWillis
07-24-13, 15:16
The best points made in this thread so far.
Great point. All we need to do is get such laws passed, just like in Florida. That way we'll never have to worry about being dragged into court when we defend ourselves.
Oh...wait.
"Worrying about something" and considering possible consequences aren't the same thing. Want to get "Infidel" and "Justice" tattooed on your forearms? Go for it. Just do so knowing that in the highly unlikely event you're forced to shoot an attacker who happens to be Muslim you're going to have some 'splainin' to do.
I'll agree than getting wrapped around the axle over cosmetic gun modifications, tattoos, or modes of dress is a little silly given the very long odds that such things will ever come into play.
Nevertheless, I prefer to go through life without broadcasting my ideological views to the world. Others are free to do as they choose.
Fidalgoman
07-24-13, 15:17
It depends on what it is. If it's a racial slur or some vulgar slang then it might be used in character assassination. On the other hand something patriotic might be OK.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-13, 16:57
I was a juror on a high profile case that lasted several weeks. The biggest thing I took away from the experience is the understanding of the business of putting people in jail.
The state is not on your side. They will try to bring up anything that supports their case no matter how irrelevant and look to dismiss anything that heavily supports your defense if possible.
I'm not sure about you but I know the state's legal fund is far larger than mine. I would separate any personal ideologies or feelings from my weapons because it will be scrutinized. Imo, its just not worth it. As long as you keep true to it, you don't need to advertise it.
Yep, yep, yep and yep.
And not only the stuff you have engraved on your rifle but the bumper stickers if any on your car and anything and everything you have ever posted on the internet. Or said to someone who might repeat it to a police detective. I know someone who was an investigator working for Angela Corey's office on the Zimmerman case. They looked for anything and everything they could find. Now Eric Holder is looking. Luckily for Zimmerman they found nothing. Zimmerman jurors indicated their verdict could have gone either way. A small piece of seeming meaningless evidence that rubs one juror the wrong way could change your life forever. And, no case law, no precedent, never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen to you.
+++1
I think it is foolish to assume "a good shoot is a good shoot" and gun type, adornments, logos, "tactical items" will never come into play. Zimmerman should be a good lesson to us all. Often, it is not clear what is a good shoot or not and it often goes to either an investigator, a prosecutor or a jury to make the final call. They can and will look at a lot of stuff (including politics!) you may not have expected as they decide just who the bad guy was, and what a "reasonable" person may have felt or done in the circumstances. Does anyone think if Zimmerman had a "punnisher" gun that would not have become an issue at some level? One thing for sure, it wouldn't have helped.
I believe we are in the middle of an all out cultural assault to try to demonize gun ownership. Schools are ending any reference, picture, or gesture related to firearms in any way. TV and movies demonize private ownership, gun business are losing leases and banking services, and local, state, and federal legislators are doing everything they can to get rid of firearms in general (non govt employees only, of course). I don't believe the lastest federal effort is over. I think we are still in the middle of it. Anyway, i think taking an extra cautious, even a bit paranoid approach to this topic seems wise, given everything that is happening. SD guns, clothing, lifestyle, etc should not give an overzealous prosecutor or a naive/activist juror anything to focus on.
Yep, yep, yep and yep.
And not only the stuff you have engraved on your rifle but the bumper stickers if any on your car and anything and everything you have ever posted on the internet. Or said to someone who might repeat it to a police detective. I know someone who was an investigator working for Angela Corey's office on the Zimmerman case. They looked for anything and everything they could find. Now Eric Holder is looking. Luckily for Zimmerman they found nothing. Zimmerman jurors indicated their verdict could have gone either way. A small piece of seeming meaningless evidence that rubs one juror the wrong way could change your life forever. And, no case law, no precedent, never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen to you.
HackerF15E
07-24-13, 20:33
I believe we are in the middle of an all out cultural assault to try to demonize gun ownership. Schools are ending any reference, picture, or gesture related to firearms in any way. TV and movies demonize private ownership, gun business are losing leases and banking services, and local, state, and federal legislators are doing everything they can to get rid of firearms in general (non govt employees only, of course). I don't believe the lastest federal effort is over. I think we are still in the middle of it.
Off topic, but in spite of this look at the feeding frenzy that has taken place over the last 7 or 8 months. I have a good number of friends who are now firearm owners who were not before "the panic", and are now fully active with the "cause" of RKBA and being an active part of keeping it...all because their eyes were opened that someone was actually trying to take it away (not sure where all those folks were in 1994, since they're all my age, and like me were in college then).
Certainly there is a cultural shift taking place -- I fully agree that is true -- but it doesn't mean that everyone is buying it.
You are right, and those are positive things. However, all the more reason to protect yourself against our political adversaries who might be in the justice system. To me it simply seems wise to not provide them any angles they could exploit to emotional or impressionable "non gun people" jury members. they will try whatever they can. Hell they tried to charge him under "child abuse" guidelines. The media changed his racial identity to fit their story. They doctored 911 tapes to poison public opinion and the jury pool. If he had anything they could have used to paint the "wanna be" or "looking for an excuse" picture, they would have. In fact, i believe they did. They even brought up him doing police ride alongs in the past. A scary tactical rig, a vest full of mags, violent or aggressive sayings or logos could have easily gotten him manslaughter at least.
^^^ Nice user name! ^^^
Personally I don't much go for the engravings/attention getters; but it hasn't been for fear of political or prosecutionary fears .... previously, anyway.
Do remember though that the DA was even using the fact that ol' Zimm kept a round chambered as evidence that he was a vigilante; so there is a level of "no bounds" in today's courtroom. :rolleyes:
I'm like the Amish - Plain is beautiful...
I have the AF Combat Arms logo on my range rifle. Thats about it.
I spent 20 years on a firing range before becoming a First Sergeant and riding desk. Call me a little nostalgic.
Low key is the way to be.
First, I will say I'm a prosecutor. Second, I will say I'm a second amendment advocate and a lover of eeeevil black rifles.
In a legal sense I will say that whatever cosmetic or mechanical modifications are done to a firearm isn't going come into play whether I decline to prosecute because it was a good shoot or prosecute because a crime has been committed. If I decide to prosecute then I feel that ethically I should do everything in my power to secure a conviction. Its not a decision to take lightly and it deserves every effort. Yes, I would bring up any cosmetic modifications that show aggressiveness. You better believe the defense is going to trot out grandma to tell how her grand baby lives at the foot of the cross despite the fact that he put a round in his girlfriend's grape because she disrespected him and I'm going to counter that.
On a personal level, I don't care how people decorate their rigs. Look at some of the rifles with magpul stickers, cool paint schemes, etc. Just know if I'm at a class and see you rocking patches and paint screaming how big of a badass you are despite the fact your wheezing on the first relay, look like 300 lbs of chewed bubblegum, and can't even bzo your rifle, I'm probably going to be snickering...on the inside.
Boba Fett v2
09-23-13, 18:35
Just know if I'm at a class and see you rocking patches and paint screaming how big of a badass you are despite the fact your wheezing on the first relay, look like 300 lbs of chewed bubblegum, and can't even bzo your rifle, I'm probably going to be snickering...on the inside.
Now THAT'S funny. :thumbup:
Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2
First, I will say I'm a prosecutor. Second, I will say I'm a second amendment advocate and a lover of eeeevil black rifles.
In a legal sense I will say that whatever cosmetic or mechanical modifications are done to a firearm isn't going come into play whether I decline to prosecute because it was a good shoot or prosecute because a crime has been committed. If I decide to prosecute then I feel that ethically I should do everything in my power to secure a conviction. Its not a decision to take lightly and it deserves every effort. Yes, I would bring up any cosmetic modifications that show aggressiveness. You better believe the defense is going to trot out grandma to tell how her grand baby lives at the foot of the cross despite the fact that he put a round in his girlfriend's grape because she disrespected him and I'm going to counter that.
I'm glad that you shared your perspective. Although I wish cosmetic touches weren't an issue (I'm not really into them but I really dig freedom), it's good to hear the answer straight from the horses mouth. Thanks.
Levi
I'm glad that you shared your perspective. Although I wish cosmetic touches weren't an issue (I'm not really into them but I really dig freedom), it's good to hear the answer straight from the horses mouth. Thanks.
Levi
I know where you're coming from with the freedom statement. I don't want to sound like a mod means a person is aggressive or a criminal. I'm just saying that no matter what the evidence is, emotion still plays a big part for a jury. Believe me, it would make my job so much easier if everything was black and white. I look at the facts to decide if it's a good case or not. The argument would just be a tool to counter the defense. How many people do we know that have tattoos that are great people? I have tattoos from my time in the Corps but you better believe I keep them covered at work. You also better believe I love a defendant that has tattoo sleeves and wears a t-shirt to trial. Doesn't have a thing to do with the facts of the case but it comes down to that emotional argument. Any attorney has to consider that.
Another thing to consider is that I'm from a rural area, prior military, and believe in the right to bear arms. This is my perspective. Some prosecutors will look at you like a criminal if you own a firearm despite what the law and Constitution say. I hate to say it but there it is. Plan accordingly.
I know where you're coming from with the freedom statement. I don't want to sound like a mod means a person is aggressive or a criminal. I'm just saying that no matter what the evidence is, emotion still plays a big part for a jury. Believe me, it would make my job so much easier if everything was black and white. I look at the facts to decide if it's a good case or not. The argument would just be a tool to counter the defense. How many people do we know that have tattoos that are great people? I have tattoos from my time in the Corps but you better believe I keep them covered at work. You also better believe I love a defendant that has tattoo sleeves and wears a t-shirt to trial. Doesn't have a thing to do with the facts of the case but it comes down to that emotional argument. Any attorney has to consider that.
Another thing to consider is that I'm from a rural area, prior military, and believe in the right to bear arms. This is my perspective. Some prosecutors will look at you like a criminal if you own a firearm despite what the law and Constitution say. I hate to say it but there it is. Plan accordingly.
Oh don't get me wrong, I completely understood what you meant when you said that about using mods to prosecute. Your job is to prosecute someone. You do everything in your power to get the conviction. I have nothing against you or any other prosecutor for that. I just wish that it wasn't an issue. Anywhere. Period.
Levi
P.S. Thanks for your service.
Oh don't get me wrong, I completely understood what you meant when you said that about using mods to prosecute. Your job is to prosecute someone. You do everything in your power to get the conviction. I have nothing against you or any other prosecutor for that. I just wish that it wasn't an issue. Anywhere. Period.
Levi
P.S. Thanks for your service.
Oh I know what you meant. I just thought I may have needed to clarify myself some. I'd hate to come across as a guy who thought that a mod made the rifle and shooter evil on, you know, a forum dedicated to a love of said platform!
DMViergever
09-23-13, 21:04
I'm not into it a bit. I generally think folks with that crap on their guns are typically douchey depending on what is on there and I am into guns. I can only imagine what juror whatever may think of it...
Michael2007
09-24-13, 00:24
I'm the kind of guy that tinkers with all my stuff. It's just what I do. I've taken an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States of America I plan on engraving the flag and maybe "we the people" on my rifle when I get around to buying one. The flag has meaning to me. That being said I am also a huge punisher fan but would never put it on a firearm I own. I think without a doubt many cosmetic modifications can be used to sway the opinion of the jury. Think before you act.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t106/chorizo_2007/lawdegree.jpg (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/chorizo_2007/media/lawdegree.jpg.html)
This.
I would listen to the prosecutor that posted in here, what he said echoed the behavior of everyone in the last DA's office I worked in.
Know your jurisdiction. I won't even apply to work in my new location because the current DA is so terrible.
Those markings you just have to put all over your SD while they probably/possibly/hopefully won't make a difference in determining whether or not you were involved in a good shoot; they will more than likely be used against you in the event of a trial.
I remember as an intern having an ADA run a case by me were it appeared just at a first run 50/50 whether or not it was a good shoot.(I would elaborate more, but in the event that it still may be an active case I am going to err on the side of caution). While waiting for a few pieces of crucial information to come back we tore apart the case, looking at every last detail, including his clothing, demeanor, sunglasses, weapons, statements to police officers...
It ended up being a bad shoot, for many many reasons, none of which involving his gun, but several items he wore on his body did factor into the problem.
Lawyers are (or should be at any rate) fact intensive people. Each and every fact is going to be used to win.
The most important thing to remember goes along with what was already said. Prosecutors look at the case file and make a determination whether or not to prosecute...thats a pretty subjective standard.
If you carry, I would get on one of those plans where you have a lawyer on retainer for $100 a year or something and discuss all of this stuff with them, they would be your best bet for information.
All other things being equal, it's not going to HELP you to have something that can be taken, misinterpreted, or twisted - such as "infidel", "rebel", "molon labe", or a symbol like the punisher skull, etc. If Zimmerman had something like that scripted on his Trayvon blaster, it would have only made it worse in the news and in court. However if it was a cosmetic decoration to honor something like a WWI or WWII commemorative pistol, or an inscription from your wife that says "I love you, may this always keep you safe", then I don't think that would have a negative effect.
From my point of view as a fairly new LEO-probably wont make a difference. I work with 150+cops-most of who have all sorts of aftermarket stuff. Alot of glock backplates. In TX A good shoot will be no billed and never go to trial.
To myself "liability" conjures images of civil court. Where who knows what will happen. The DAs Ive encountered are reluctent to take charges on ex-cons, let alone a law abiding "grey man". You may however go to civil court regardless of the criminal outcome. But then again you could be accused of any one of the numerous civil torts.
Emotional and unprepared statements will be more damning than your "infidel" dustcover.
Everyone concentrates on the criminal aspect of shooting someone in self defense. The resulting civil litigation seems to escape most people. What you put on your weapon will have bear much more weight in a civil courtroom.
Everyone concentrates on the criminal aspect of shooting someone in self defense. The resulting civil litigation seems to escape most people. What you put on your weapon will have bear much more weight in a civil courtroom.
Unless your state has a self-defense civil suit immunity law.
Unless your state has a self-defense civil suit immunity law.
That's true. Many states don't though.
I don't understand why people have to put slogans on their guns to begin with, IMHO some of the manufactures roll marks have kept me from buying their guns.
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