View Full Version : Scary, yet uneventful night. I would appreciate opinions.
Okay guys. I want your opinion on whether I was being too paranoid this evening, or if I was in the right by thinking something was up. My LEO buddy agreed with me that it was wayyyy too sketchy.
I was at Wal-Mart and I had my daughter and fiancée with me checking out, and I felt someone staring at me. So I look up and a large black male youth in a hoodie (I'm not even joking, I wish I was) is staring at me mean mugging while walking with his friend, almost with a plotting look. So I quickly look back down as not to antagonize. So I keep moving bags into the cart and check again and he is still staring at me around 25 more paces from where I caught him the first time. Again I quickly keep bagging. We finish loading up and she takes my daughter to the restroom and I wait....
As I'm waiting, I know this look. I was a bad kid once myself. So I guess they probably made a rectangular walking pattern, and doubled back to the only doors left open to wait for me. Low and behold I catch him scoping me again with his friend from the women's clothing section, which is right next to the exit, trying to hide. He notices me notice him. So as we walk out I check my 6 to see if he is following, he isn't. I check left and right when we leave to make sure he doesn't have people waiting. We're clear. So we walk to the car and I notice a young black woman in the drivers seat of a running car freaking out on the phone. Then I tell her and my daughter to get into the car, I can take them both myself but I can't cover them too without using my firearm if one attacks me and one attacks them. The girl notices us notice her, and nervously keeps looking at us....
So I know some shit is about to pop off now, I mentally prepare myself to do whatever has to be done and act quickly if necessary. I put the cart in the kennel and as I'm walking back to my car, the two dudes are walking to theirs which is diagonal from mine. The same dude is still staring at me. I could tell he was sizing me up to see if he wanted to try and jump, the girl was freaking out and I walked up to my door and proceed to get into my car the same time they do. I'm telling you from the bottom of my soul I think they were about to try and rob or assault me and my family. And that shit WASN'T going to happen.
See if it was just me, it would've been different. I have no doubt in my mind I could've taken them both. But since the fiancée and kid were with me it complicated things so much. I could've beaten them both in a fight 2 on 1 I believe, but I couldn't account for my family too. As I was sitting at home a few minutes ago, I realized if they were armed, I would have been in trouble. I can't lay suppressive fire with an XDs .45 with 6 rounds every shot would be critical. There would be no room for error. I was severely at a disadvantage in that situation.
Am I paranoid? Would that situation have set off alarms and red flags in your mind with the current state of events? Not to mention the city I live in has some really ghetto areas but also some really extravagant and rich areas. I was actually in the more upscale area at the time. One thing I know is I won't be treading lightly with an XDs .45 anymore. I will be carrying my XDm .40 compact and a full size spare mag. Thanks for your opinions, but please keep everything civil.
MountainRaven
07-16-13, 23:43
Why didn't you smile at them?
"Lay suppressive fire"?
Lets just play the "what if" game. If I need to change position because I am at a disadvantage and he has a let's say Glock 17 with 17-19 round capacity, and maybe even his friend is armed with God knows what. How can I change positions if they are firing in the open? I have 6 rounds to work with. I obviously cannot waste rounds to get them to stop long enough to safely move from A-B, even if it is one or two.
Why didn't you smile at them?
He was not giving me a friendly look. It was more like a solid, "**** you" look.
I agree with smiling at them to let them know your onto their game and prepared. You don't want to fight two thugs, you will end up knifed. Skip Wallmart in the future.
Thugs and thuglits (regardless of race) love to puff up their chests all the time. I use to joke with my wife, and i had a running bet with her that I could start a fight in a bar in my home town in less then 1 minute without saying a word, and without provoking anything. She didn't believe me until it came true... Some people love to fight, and some cultures thrive on conflict.
Yea your situation sounds pretty sketchy, it sounds a bit like the guy didn't like you for whatever reason. Maybe it was the Trayvon thing, maybe he had a shit day, maybe he didn't like the color of your shirt, maybe he hated the way your hair was parted.
But another member said it already, you should have smiled. Relaxed your shoulders, loosened your body, and chilled.
Tension feeds tension and escalates conflict. Your situation sounds like two tense grown men meeting way past their bedtime and not liking one another for whatever reason.
And yes, skip Walmart in the future. It's like the "behind the bleachers" of American society...
Why didn't you smile at them?And wink, the wink is very important and often over looked detail.
I always think of these situations. Since I am very small, and I cannot carry a gun to defend myself.
The thing is I am fairly confident I can hold my own against one person. Depending on their size if they just cannot outright over power me, in that case, SHTF and as a last resort I'd use my knife to survive.
In Times like that I make sure to remember my set ups for my takedowns.
Skip Wallmart in the future.
Not OP. But where I live, there are 3 grocery stores. One serves a sketchy part of town and is the least safe of the three. Another is on base, has an extremely limited selection, and it isn't open every day. The last is Wal-Mart and is essentially the only place to go for me unless I want to drive 40+ miles. Just saying it's not always an option.
Not OP. But where I live, there are 3 grocery stores. One serves a sketchy part of town and is the least safe of the three. Another is on base, has an extremely limited selection, and it isn't open every day. The last is Wal-Mart and is essentially the only place to go for me unless I want to drive 40+ miles. Just saying it's not always an option.
That sucks!
I feel like the smiling could be perceived as a big "**** you", only to further things the wrong way. And though I love suppressive fire, there are very few times it would be a good idea unless you're in the sandbox shootin Marvin in the face. All in all though, unless they followed you home, nothing happened so its all good now. Definitely is a bit sketchy though.
I feel like the smiling could be perceived as a big "**** you", only to further things the wrong way. And though I love suppressive fire, there are very few times it would be a good idea unless you're in the sandbox shootin Marvin in the face. All in all though, unless they followed you home, nothing happened so its all good now. Definitely is a bit sketchy though.
Smiling now means **** YOU?
I must have missed the memo...:sarcastic:
He was not giving me a friendly look. It was more like a solid, "**** you" look.
and the smile is meant as a "Yeah, **** with me, just try it" message.
Smiling now means **** YOU?
I must have missed the memo...:sarcastic:
I'd put money that fights have been started on a smile before.
MountainRaven
07-17-13, 00:37
and the smile is meant as a "Yeah, **** with me, just try it" message.
To me the smile more says, "Hello, I see you. I'm not going to attack you but I don't feel threatened by you, either."
smile and head nod and then a quick 2 second solid look getting details
think height build facial hair and length if I can see under hood ? color clothes any noticeable things try to take a quick mental of that
then again I am a scanning fool :) kinda learned that early on and in traveling in places like Central America and far south pacific/asia areas
never put my head down to me it would signal I am week and cowering ?
edited to say if it went to a gun fight pray it does not :) I would weeny out hide and run in my car etc.. ? no way would I be the aggressor
:)
suppressive fire ? screw that make every shot count on target ! for some reason when your bud goes down the others tend to scatter and dont stand there ground ? again from what I am told good odds are would rather nail one solid and have 2-3 rounds left than lay out all 6 not hit them ?
I think also I tend to if really thinking something is wrong take out my phone and snap a waist level pic or two
So I quickly look back down as not to antagonize.
That's where you ****ed up.
In a overly loud, commanding voice designed to attract as much attention as possible, you should have stared dead at him and said, "What's up man, do you need something"? I mean ****ing loud. Everyone in the store should have looked right at you.
He would have moved on to a softer target.
So what is the purpose of this thread? Not trying to be an ass, but what do you want us to say? That you did good? That you should have ran away?
That you should have drawn down on them and fired?
Personally I would have kept them in my sight and finished my business and moved out. People actually do kill each other because they felt "dissed". I prefer to avoid trouble unless I can't.
Or it could have provoked an action and witnesses will recall having heard you screaming and yelling (that's how it will be seen) and then you will be the shithead.
That's where you ****ed up.
In a overly loud, commanding voice designed to attract as much attention as possible, you should have stared dead at him and said, "What's up man, do you need something"? I mean ****ing loud. Everyone in the store should have looked right at you.
He would have moved on to a softer target.
So what is the purpose of this thread?
The purpose of the thread was to obtain, "opinions on whether I was being too paranoid this evening, or if I was in the right by thinking something was up."
Or it could have provoked an action and witnesses will recall having heard you screaming and yelling (that's how it will be seen) and then you will be the shithead.
I didn't say scream or yell, but put some bass into it. Be heard. Don't say ignorant stuff, be polite but strong. Not looking away like a beat puppy.
And really, what's the worse that happens? Security walks you out? Problem solved.
Or that provokes that person and he then follows you or starts something in the parking lot.
Or you are carrying concealed and someone calls 911 and reports a disturbance. Is that clear enough?
I didn't say scream or yell, but put some bass into it. Be heard. Don't say ignorant stuff, be polite but strong. Not looking away like a beat puppy.
And really, what's the worse that happens? Security walks you out? Problem solved.
Maybe you were. Who knows we weren't there. All that matters is what you felt and how you responded.
The purpose of the thread was to obtain, "opinions on whether I was being too paranoid this evening, or if I was in the right by thinking something was up."
Or that provokes that person and he then follows you or starts something in the parking lot.
Or you are carrying concealed and someone calls 911 and reports a disturbance. Is that clear enough?
Clear enough how? What are you talking about?
The guy has to drive forever to get to a Wal-Mart or a decent non-****ed up grocery store. How far away are the police?
Call 911...right.
The end result is that nothing happened. This wasn't by the OPs decision. If the situation doesn't benefit you, why not change the circumstances? Call attention to the guy, verbally challenge him. At least you aren't 100% reactive. If you think he's outside waiting, ask to be walked out. Stay in the store, shop longer. Ask security to walk you out.
This could have been something as simple as the guy thought he was someone else. I doubt he would have been hawking him as much if he was going to rob him.
IMHO better paranoid and cautious then dumb and a victim !
I would rather be over thinking than under etc..
but I also dont think about what I have to do as much as I just try to do it all the time anyway and I dont ever have to think about exit plans etc.. really I tend to be in that thinking mindset
paranoid ? maybe who knows but I know some of my buds are the same way as me
one of my buds who is retired spec ops guy and now teaches at Huachuca is funny like me go eat at Ikea and watch where he sits the direction and stuff ! he seems like he is unprepared but he totally is !
also I dont make a huge focus on it kinda that fly under the radar thing
Clear enough how? What are you talking about?
The guy has to drive forever to get to a Wal-Mart or a decent non-****ed up grocery store. How far away are the police?
Call 911...right.
The end result is that nothing happened. This wasn't by the OPs decision. If the situation doesn't benefit you, why not change the circumstances? Call attention to the guy, verbally challenge him. At least you aren't 100% reactive. If you think he's outside waiting, ask to be walked out. Stay in the store, shop longer. Ask security to walk you out.
This could have been something as simple as the guy thought he was someone else. I doubt he would have been hawking him as much if he was going to rob him.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/get_attacked.htm#conflict
Can you not articulate your point? Linking someone else's work is weak sauce. That looks like something they would give women to avoid rape. Total bullshit.
Looking down like a scared little kid IS sending a message. The WRONG one.
Don't be a dick, don't be rude, don't be insulting, and don't look weak.
Be a hard target.
Where I come from a smile, nod or wink would not be a smart idea. These acts would be perceived as a test of ones trillness (true/real), and any gangster worth his salt would back it up.
Stall and wait for them to finish their business.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 03:43
First off, job well done getting you and your family out of Dodge safely. Situational awareness is paramount, you displayed that you exercise it. Second, look into getting a GLOCK, M&P, or some other reputable combat handgun with a capacity of 15 rounds or greater.
If he was in ear shot I would have said something like "Thanks, I'm truly flattered. But I'm not gay."
If he wasn't in ear shot I would have very obviously taken a pic of him with my cell phone then proceed to call 911 and report a suspicious person casing the joint. If you are white, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, etc. give a full description but leave out the fact that he is "African-American" until the dispatcher asks you what race the suspect is.
"Zimmerman could be a gay rapist." - Rachel Jeantel
http://www.christianpost.com/news/rush-limbaugh-rachel-jeantel-said-trayvon-thought-zimmerman-was-a-gay-rapist-100228/
This comes to mind as well . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/jamesmattisquote_zps19972fda.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/jamesmattisquote_zps19972fda.jpg.html)
I've had the same type of situation happen late night at a Walmart around here but I was alone. I made sure they knew that I saw them and was watching them. They were in the entrance of Walmart when I walked out just staring at me, and proceeded to follow behind me as I hit the parking lot. I was parked towards the front of the lot and my truck was under a light. It didn't take me long to get to my truck. As I got in my truck they approached the driver window, so I cracked it as I was backing up and one walked up and said, "yo can you give us a ride man." I never actually stopped my truck and just said no and quickly drove off. If they actually wanted a ride or if they wanted to car jack me I don't know.
My main point being- let people know you see them. People want to catch someone unsuspecting and off guard, not someone that's got an eye on their every movement.
Would it be appropriate to wear your training T-shirts and ball caps at night?
When I'd venture into Detroit I always did. Girlfriend was attending Wayne State and I gave her a Glock ball cap and a three day assault pack for her bookbag.
Everyone thought she was a very good looking police officer.
Crow Hunter
07-17-13, 07:52
If I had been in your situation, here is what I would have done:
I would have "forgotten" where my car was parked. I would have made for the grocery exit and then stopped and remembered that I actually parked at the other exit and went back the other way. If the suspicious person kept following me, I would have notified security of what was happening and why I was suspicious.
If I couldn't "wait them out" for some reason, I would have then asked for an escort to my vehicle. If that wasn't available for some reason, I would have walked to my vehicle with my significant other holding a cell phone to her ear, even if she was not talking to anyone but ready to hit 911 if needed.
If I were being followed on the way to the vehicle, I would have made note of the number of people/descriptions, had my SO call 911 or local police/sheriff while we moved back into the store doing my best to keep multiple pieces cover between myself and the suspicious characters, prefferably cover that would be an impediment to a direct tackling charge.
My weapon would be there as a last resort if I couldn't use superior tactics to diffuse/avoid the situation or let the authorities do their jobs. I would have multiple documentable attempts to do something other than draw a weapon and fire it. There would be no question in a jury trial of whether I was a "vigilante" or not. I would have made every attempt possible to retreat because I DON'T want to be in a shooting incident. I don't want to deal with the political/legal fallout or have the death of another human being on my conscience unless I had absolutely no other choice.
As to your weapon of choice, you need to be comfortable with what you are using and be able to use it well. If you are confident in it and you can make multiple fight stopping hits quickly and on demand from multiple positions weak or dominant handed then you should be fine. If not, you need to pick a different weapon and/or train more.
As to the need for "suppressive fire", don't forget every bullet that leaves the barrel of your weapon has a lawsuit/potential wrongful death attached to it. You don't want to be someone who survives an attack only to accidently kill a 5 year old sitting in a car in the "beaten zone" of your "suppressive fire".
Don't forget anything you do and anything you post on the internet can be used against you in a future court case.
We're you being paranoid? Not at all. Clearly they were either attempting to intimidate/scare you, or they were sizing you up and deciding if they wanted to have a "go" at you. I grew up where this sort of predator/prey thing was a daily occurrence. Through trial and error, you learn as a child what fights you can win and what fights you can't. You learn when to stand firm and when to retreat. You learn when to show power and call a bluff and stave off an attack, and when to be humble and attempt to de-escalate.
Reading behavior in another human is an art form. Knowing how to act/react to get the outcome you desire is another art form. Some of the best cops are truly gifted in these art forms, and so are some civilians. It is striking to me how ignorant most people are when it comes to these things. They either force and attack by doing something confrontational, or invite an attack by showing too much weakness, in any given situation. In these instances the person did not want to be attacked, but their actions clearly brought it on.
It is impossible to know exactly what to assess or recommend to you in a situation like this based on a few typed paragraphs. There are literally millions of ever changing variables and factors to consider in a dynamic situation like this. YOUR awareness of the situation, YOUR assessment of the situation, and YOUR chosen course of action for THIS situation was obviously one of the best correct possible courses of action, as nothing happened. You didn't want an attack, and you didn't inadvertently cause or invite one. GOOD JOB! Congratulations on your successful navigation.
I find it particularly interesting/noteworthy how the presence of your significant other and your child, factored into your decision making processes. Would you have behaved or reacted differently had you been alone? Might your choices and the outcome of this situation have been different if they weren't present? Personally, when I'm out in public my choices are definitely based on the company in my presence.
Now my last point: I hope you learned from this that a six shooter might not be your best option when out in public. The possibility of having to face multiple assailants and the safety of your family should dictate that in an emergency, six rounds is better than none, but not enough to make ME feel comfortable in my defensive capability. Don't dismiss the possibility that if violence broke out, the panicky woman in the car may have also been armed and opted to jump in. In all likelyhood you'd be facing the two male attackers, and the woman in the car might have ended up at your six. Did you have a plan for that?
Overall I'm very glad you and the family made it out safely and violence was not necessary.
Can you not articulate your point? Linking someone else's work is weak sauce. That looks like something they would give women to avoid rape. Total bullshit.
Looking down like a scared little kid IS sending a message. The WRONG one.
Don't be a dick, don't be rude, don't be insulting, and don't look weak.
Be a hard target.
Dude, I'm reading your suggestions and your reactions to criticism and I'm thinking you've never been in a confrontation with a stranger before.
Several people suggested acknowledging the person with a smile and not cowering. This I suggest as well.
Drawing loud, obnoxious attention to the tension is an escalation and I would say that in the majority of cases it will start the "bro" banter. "What up bro, what you looking at bro, you want some bro, bring it bro..." Back and forth chest pumping. Most people will view the single act of speaking up as the escalation into this, and like IG said if something pops off, witnesses will say they saw you speak up first.
I've been in enough fights and conflicts in my life that I don't need to reach down and feel if my balls are still there or not. With that said:
Avoidance of conflict is the best and most logical approach to self defense. The person who posted above me has a lot of good things to say about understanding the unspoken dynamics of human interactions. Learning these, and learning how to navigate them is the first key to self defense. The fact that they are often ignored by "self defense trainers" is one of the reasons I have always taken issue with women's self defense style courses. Removal from the potential area of attack should always be your first and most important option, especially when innocents are involved. No sane person wants to invite conflict onto themselves. Remove yourself from the situation, be aware of the situation, do not cower, and put all of your energy into actively leaving the situation behind you.
Change the equation. Leave the weak (wife/child) in the store; go get the car and load at the door. Make sure they know you see them, robbers don't want someone who will fight back, they want someone appearing weak/vunerable.
The other night my wife and I were leaving the resturaunt; as we get to the car, this guy (who looked high or drunk) approached her and asked her a question about skydiving (she was wearing a skydiving shirt). While not appearing threatened, she talked to him while I did a 360 scan looking for any accomplice(s) while my hand casually in my pocket (around my Bodyguard) and keeping enough distance (with the vehicle between us) that he couldn't lunge at me. When he looked at me, I looked him dead in the eyes so he knew I wasn't scared of him. Might have been purely innocent, but my 6th sense wasn't saying so.
He asked for a recommendation of my local drop zone, then her name in order to use her as a reference...luckily she knew only to give her first, not our last name - we live in a small enough town that it would be too easy to get our address.
The purpose of the thread was to obtain, "opinions on whether I was being too paranoid this evening, or if I was in the right by thinking something was up."
Yes, "something was up".... a segment of the country is "Being Trayvon"
The band on Leno last night,,, all wore hoodies... performed song for Trayvon.
White kids are "trayvoning" . Posing dead with skittles and Tea and posting pic online.
So yes... two types of "Trayvoning" going on right now. Expect more of this until the fad wears off and avoid those places, times of day, etc..
You were "Trayvoned", is my opinion. Don't forget that police are rarely far from a WalMart. Until this stuff dies down, why chance it on you own.
Alpha Sierra
07-17-13, 10:49
The band on Leno last night,,, all wore hoodies... performed song for Trayvon.
White kids are "trayvoning" . Posing dead with skittles and Tea and posting pic online.
So yes... two types of "Trayvoning" going on right now. Expect more of this until the fad wears off and avoid those places, times of day, etc..
You were "Trayvoned", is my opinion. Don't forget that police are rarely far from a WalMart. Until this stuff dies down, why chance it on you own.
There's another kind of getting "trayvoned", IFKWIM
Mauser KAR98K
07-17-13, 11:03
1.)"Can I help you, sir/gentlemen?"
Say this with authority, but for the casual listener to sound disarming. Say this if they have approached, or were approaching you. This is if your situation had gotten to this point. Hopefully you say this as they are approaching. While doing this, get your hand on your shirt tail or what every attire you have that is concealing your weapon. It should be an indication that your are armed to the possible bad guys(they should be looking at hands to, as should you), shows are will escalate quickly, and this also has given you about a quarter second jump if you have to draw for whatever reason. If they keep coming while either saying nothing or get confrontational...me, I'd draw, put the weapon at my side and tell them, "Go away, please." My feelings are for them not to get any closer at that point.
If they start asking for money, or a ride, tell them flat out no, sorry, can't help you, have a nice night/day. You gave them a response to a simple request, now they should be going elsewhere.
2.)The other, yet more risky approach is to be positioned between you and your SO by your car with you firearm already out, by your side a little behind as they are approaching. Say what I posted above. If they keep coming, if they say nothing and keep coming, brandish your weapon (don't point it at them) and tell them it is time to go away. I have a distinct feeling gentlemen like that are not going to call the police. Why would they send for their own government issued limo to jail, particularly if they have warrants? It's an assumption, but people generally don't follow a man, his possible wife and kid out to the parking lot in pairs like that, especially if they have been looking hard at you, and they have been doing nothing in Wal-Mart but watching people.
Again, the last suggestion rather is risky as your weapon is already out, exposed, some dude you missed could come up and try to take it, or some passerby liberal sees it and calls the po-po on you. I'd go with the first option and practice drawing.
BTW: Your SO should be on the phone looking like she is talking to 911, or is talking to 911 through any of these suggestions.
These are for if the situation, that I imagine is playing through your mind, had escalated outside of the store and at your vehicle.
As for WHAT had happened: you did good except putting your head down to avoid confrontation. Head up; look at them. Show them in subtle body language that YOU are the predator and not them. Generally the scumbags of our world are looking for easy targets that won't give them any trouble, or they can quickly overwhelm and take what they want in a hurry. Make it look you are going to give them a very hard time. Hell, look at them as if you are an off-duty LEO. Those are the last people criminals want to mess with: they are trained, and they write very good statements and reports. Looking non-confrontational is not a good thing to stave off confrontation.
If they do escalate because of this, they are wanting something to satisfy some craving and you are the target and you gave them what they wanted. They could be soon-to-be gang bangers and are committing a force-able felony just to look good or get in with the gang. Who knows. If they had happen, I refer you to suggestion one.
But you were watched, sized up, marked, and you, towards the end, looked very aware of your surroundings, acknowledged them, and now you didn't look so easy after all. You won.
The paranoid survive.
Can you not articulate your point? Linking someone else's work is weak sauce. That looks like something they would give women to avoid rape. Total bullshit.
Looking down like a scared little kid IS sending a message. The WRONG one.
Don't be a dick, don't be rude, don't be insulting, and don't look weak.
Be a hard target.
I linked someone else because they more than likely have way more experience than I do. That being said, I've never once been in a legit fight but I didn't get that way by beating my chest and trying to make a show by calling out the other guy. There's a line between putting your head down and looking weak and being non-confrontational but aware of your surroundings.
Why didn't you smile at them?
I think he is trying to apply the statist advice that someone being raped should just pee and poop themselves.... or that someone being threatened should try and be friendly and smile as a way to diffuse the situation. No sense in considering personal self defense as an option. I think that is where the OP went wrong. He didn't try hard enough to "get along".
Mauser KAR98K
07-17-13, 11:11
I think he is trying to apply the statist advice that someone being raped should just pee and poop themselves.... or that someone being threatened should try and be friendly and smile as a way to diffuse the situation. No sense in considering personal self defense as an option. I think that is where the OP went wrong.
Great, now this thread is going to get locked.
edited quote...disaster avoided.
I stand corrected. Edited.
OP, I don't think you were being paranoid at all. It could have been a very serious threat. Just because society says you should not judge based on this, that, or the other thing, that doesn't mean that some stereotypical black thug who's giving you the stink eye wants to play a round of golf with you.
As I stated in another thread, I work in an industrial area & there's a mini-mart 2 doors down from my shop which I frequent due to convenience to grab a drink. There's a large section 8 housing block not far from the store. There are always black thug, Predator looking dirt bags outside panhandling, pissing, drinking, selling dope, & many other unsavory type acts. Every time I pass them, they give me the stink eye & size me up as if I called their mama bad names. After 10+ years of this shit, it has hardened me to the point where if they were on fire, I wouldn't piss on them. I completely ignore them, their looks, & their requests for "Change". I never go "without" when I visit the store or the general area for that matter.
Traveshamockery
07-17-13, 11:47
I'm amazed by those here who are encouraging behaviors that would likely escalate the situation.
Smiling? Staring him down without breaking eye contact? Give me a break.
The culture most of us live in (low-middle or middle class America) is NOT the world that a mugger lives in. Insult someone's manliness, challenge their pride, and they are honor-bound to make you pay.
If you carry a gun, you will accept any insult, suffer any perceived slight to avoid escalating a situation. I think you did the right thing, generally, by making sure they knew you were aware of them, and by getting out of there.
RogerinTPA
07-17-13, 12:06
That's where you ****ed up.
In a overly loud, commanding voice designed to attract as much attention as possible, you should have stared dead at him and said, "What's up man, do you need something"? I mean ****ing loud. Everyone in the store should have looked right at you.
He would have moved on to a softer target.
As a kid growing up on the streets of Detroit, looking passive & unconcerned was perceived as weakness, especially after making eye contact, then looking meek and sheepish. It was a guarantee of getting robbed and beat down. Making the other guy back down was an art form, even if you couldn't fight. Perception of being able to hand out a catastrophic ass whoopin nonverbally, was key to street survival. You had to be prepared to have your 'puff up' called and be ready to fight your ass off. If you won, you upped your street cred. If you lost, you fought with heart to the end and you gained respect for not backing down. To this day I will stare them down with the most sinister, "don't give a ****, bring it" look on my face, and keep them in my search scan, never losing eye contact. They will do what they are going to do anyway, so you might as well make them think long and hard about choosing you or someone else as their victim.
I'm amazed by those here who are encouraging behaviors that would likely escalate the situation.
Smiling? Staring him down without breaking eye contact? Give me a break.
The culture most of us live in (low-middle or middle class America) is NOT the world that a mugger lives in. Insult someone's manliness, challenge their pride, and they are honor-bound to make you pay.
If you carry a gun, you will accept any insult, suffer any perceived slight to avoid escalating a situation. I think you did the right thing, generally, by making sure they knew you were aware of them, and by getting out of there.
Pretty much.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I think he is trying to apply the statist advice that someone being raped should just pee and poop themselves.... or that someone being threatened should try and be friendly and smile as a way to diffuse the situation. No sense in considering personal self defense as an option. I think that is where the OP went wrong. He didn't try hard enough to "get along".
I am not an easy looking target. I'm 6'1, 300lbs and rep 365lbs on the bench press and 1440lbs on the leg press. I don't necessarily look like an easy target, the fact he picked me actually surprised me. In a fight, I would have destroyed the guy, even though he wasn't small himself.
I was trying not to escalate the situation, but I was prepared to do what needed to be done. They were maybe 10 yards from me outside, and I would've easily gotten center mass shots if they were stupid enough to try something.
That is my worst fear, being targeted like that when I am with my family. If I was by myself, I would've acted quite differently.
As a kid growing up on the streets of Detroit, looking passive & unconcerned was perceived as weakness, especially after making eye contact, then looking meek and sheepish. It was a guarantee of getting robbed and beat down. Making the other guy back down was an art form, even if you couldn't fight. Perception of being able to hand out a catastrophic ass whoopin nonverbally, was key to street survival. You had to be prepared to have your 'puff up' called and be ready to fight your ass off. If you won, you upped your street cred. If you lost, you fought with heart to the end and you gained respect for not backing down. To this day I will stare them down with the most sinister, "don't give a ****, bring it" look on my face, and keep them in my search scan, never losing eye contact. They will do what they are going to do anyway, so you might as well make them think long and hard about choosing you or someone else as their victim.
Where exactly did you live and what high school?
Detroit is an odd place (for me): East Side, West side, Chaldeans, Armenians, Poles and now Russians.
Very dynamic situation.
Kinda miss some of it.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Crow Hunter
07-17-13, 12:17
If you carry a gun, you will accept any insult, suffer any perceived slight to avoid escalating a situation.
That is my mantra and training combined with "Don't go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid shit."
:D
As a kid growing up on the streets of Detroit, looking passive & unconcerned was perceived as weakness, especially after making eye contact, then looking meek and sheepish. It was a guarantee of getting robbed and beat down. Making the other guy back down was an art form, even if you couldn't fight. Perception of being able to hand out a catastrophic ass whoopin nonverbally, was key to street survival. You had to be prepared to have your 'puff up' called and be ready to fight your ass off. If you won, you upped your street cred. If you lost, you fought with heart to the end and you gained respect for not backing down. To this day I will stare them down with the most sinister, "don't give a ****, bring it" look on my face, and keep them in my search scan, never losing eye contact. They will do what they are going to do anyway, so you might as well make them think long and hard about choosing you or someone else as their victim.
Good post, I totally agree with these points.
OP, I think you acted smartly. You had situational awareness, you protected your family, you didn't escalate the situation, and you had a gun. I'd recommend that you pick something with higher capacity but otherwise, I think you handled it well.
This will sound lame, unmanly and most probably wouldn't go this route... You have your family with you so choke down your pride and ensure their safety.
You noticed something amiss when you were checking out so the easiest thing to do would've been to request the store manager immediately and have her get store security to escort you out.
You'd luck out to have an off-duty copper as your store security escort or they could notify the police for you as well while helping you out to your car. Trust your Spidey sense.
This will sound lame, unmanly and most probably wouldn't go this route... You have your family with you so choke down your pride and ensure their safety.
You noticed something amiss when you were checking out so the easiest thing to do would've been to request the store manager immediately and have her get store security to escort you out.
You'd luck out to have an off-duty copper as your store security escort or they could notify the police for you as well while helping you out to your car. Trust your Spidey sense.
Very good advice.
RogerinTPA
07-17-13, 14:55
Where exactly did you live and what high school?
Detroit is an odd place (for me): East Side, West side, Chaldeans, Armenians, Poles and now Russians.
Very dynamic situation.
Kinda miss some of it.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Lived to the south of Highland Park and went to Northern Sr. high school, off woodward ave and clermont. We had daily beatdowns, stabbings, and shootings on a daily or weekly basis, to and from, in and out of school, with turf wars. During the late 70's, at the height of citywide gang violence where the used to posts a gang leadership and members association matrix, and who was killed or arrests during gang crack downs in the sunday newspaper, for half a year until they got the city back under control. All black on black violence, much like today.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 14:59
OP, the following was posed to several of our Subject Matter Experts. I re-read these from time to time and always share with like minded individuals.
Pre-incident indicators of violent, civilian events:
Jason Falla (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101711)
Pat McNamara (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101713)
Mike Pannone (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101715)
OP, the following was posed to several of our Subject Matter Experts. I re-read these from time to time and always share with like minded individuals.
Pre-incident indicators of violent, civilian events:
Jason Falla (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101711)
Pat McNamara (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101713)
Mike Pannone (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101715)
Had never seen these before, thanks.
I'm amazed by those here who are encouraging behaviors that would likely escalate the situation.
Smiling? Staring him down without breaking eye contact? Give me a break.
The culture most of us live in (low-middle or middle class America) is NOT the world that a mugger lives in. Insult someone's manliness, challenge their pride, and they are honor-bound to make you pay.
If you carry a gun, you will accept any insult, suffer any perceived slight to avoid escalating a situation. I think you did the right thing, generally, by making sure they knew you were aware of them, and by getting out of there.
RogerinTPA said it perfectly right after your post.
I don't advocate escalation in any of these situations but looking meek can be a serious form of escalation.
That environment you refer to, I exist in it all the time. I drive through it, I walk through it, I work in it. There is something to be said about not staring at people as that can keep people from noticing you, but once your noticed, you don't scrunch up and look away, unless you want to be followed and ****ed with.
Either way the guy made it through the night! Good for him.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 16:24
RogerinTPA said it perfectly right after your post.
I don't advocate escalation in any of these situations but looking meek can be a serious form of escalation.
You and Roger are spot on, weak sauce is just that. Criminals look for soft targets.
The_War_Wagon
07-17-13, 16:32
Why didn't you smile at them?
Shotgun. Have 'em covered, first. THEN wink. ;)
http://themovieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Doc-Holliday.jpg
I think we all would handle things a bit dif and even what you did worked ;)
all easy for us to say what we think from our chair and sure many of us have instances in real life and I think each one we have to handle in a different way each time
common thing is you saw it and did something
not looking or looking ?
what ever works I guess :)
MountainRaven
07-17-13, 20:29
I think he is trying to apply the statist advice that someone being raped should just pee and poop themselves.... or that someone being threatened should try and be friendly and smile as a way to diffuse the situation. No sense in considering personal self defense as an option. I think that is where the OP went wrong. He didn't try hard enough to "get along".
Courtesy costs me nothing.
Shotgun. Have 'em covered, first. THEN wink. ;)
http://themovieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Doc-Holliday.jpg
I don't know if the OP has a duster to hide it under, though!
:D
To the original poster, it's best that you did nothing to further escalate the situation and were aware and ready to act if things got worse.
For whatever reason, Walmarts and Walmart parking lots seem to attract a lot of crimes and criminals. I've read and heard of a lot of instances from suspicious approaches to outright muggings to experiences like yours.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 21:57
For whatever reason, Walmarts and Walmart parking lots seem to attract a lot of crimes and criminals. I've read and heard of a lot of instances from suspicious approaches to outright muggings to experiences like yours.
Low prices and large selection invite the lowest common denominator. The fact they are literally open 24/7 365 days a year makes there parking lots primo locals for drug deals.
Walmart stores are shitholes, attract the worst kinds of people, & put small local mom & pop shops out of business anywhere they land one of their behemoth "Superstores". A Walmart superstore opened up a few blocks from my house & the entire neighborhood went to shit immediately. I ****ing hate Walmart with a passion.
I am not an easy looking target. I'm 6'1, 300lbs and rep 365lbs on the bench press and 1440lbs on the leg press. I don't necessarily look like an easy target, the fact he picked me actually surprised me. In a fight, I would have destroyed the guy, even though he wasn't small himself.
I think that is exactly why they singled you out. I was going to ask you what you looked like. You looked liked someone they could provoke into a fight very easily. If they could have gotten you to "attack them" because of "how they looked".... they could have sued WalMart and you.... Not to mention if their plan was more sinister.
Do you honestly think someone smaller than you is going to provoke you into a fair fight? You were being set up and it sounds like you were lucky you had your family with you.
You need to realize, they want/need to prove what they already believe... that means you or someone else needs to be "at fault" for it to work.
decodeddiesel
07-17-13, 22:25
OP: Good job on maintaining situational awareness and making yourself a "hard target". About all you can do in this sort of a situation.
Walmart stores are shitholes, attract the worst kinds of people, & put small local mom & pop shops out of business anywhere they land one of their behemoth "Superstores". A Walmart superstore opened up a few blocks from my house & the entire neighborhood went to shit immediately. I ****ing hate Walmart with a passion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A473rAQjsZc
Right now I am in a difficult financial situation, and I have found groceries are at least 25-30% cheaper at the local Walmart than the Kroger grocery store. Just saying.
exactly what I was thinking when reading his size :)
and the way they acted dressed etc.. !
I think that is exactly why they singled you out. I was going to ask you what you looked like. You looked liked someone they could provoke into a fight very easily. If they could have gotten you to "attack them" because of "how they looked".... they could have sued WalMart and you.... Not to mention if their plan was more sinister.
Do you honestly think someone smaller than you is going to provoke you into a fair fight? You were being set up and it sounds like you were lucky you had your family with you.
You need to realize, they want/need to prove what they already believe... that means you or someone else needs to be "at fault" for it to work.
Lived to the south of Highland Park and went to Northern Sr. high school, off woodward ave and clermont. We had daily beatdowns, stabbings, and shootings on a daily or weekly basis, to and from, in and out of school, with turf wars. During the late 70's, at the height of citywide gang violence where the used to posts a gang leadership and members association matrix, and who was killed or arrests during gang crack downs in the sunday newspaper, for half a year until they got the city back under control. All black on black violence, much like today.
Thanks for sharing. It provides many perspectives from yourself, others who grew up in that are and from retired police officers there.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Suwannee Tim
07-18-13, 08:26
Any confrontation that did not require a police report ended well. Whatever the dude's intentions were he didn't cost you anything but anxiety and you'll get over that.
I'm still wondering about the "suppressive fire" thing. How do you use "suppressive fire" in a Walmart parking lot? That sounds like the kind of thinking that could wind your ass up in prison which I definitely would not call a win.
Okay guys. I want your opinion on whether I was being too paranoid this evening, or if I was in the right by thinking something was up. My LEO buddy agreed with me that it was wayyyy too sketchy.
I was at Wal-Mart and I had my daughter and fiancée with me checking out, and I felt someone staring at me. So I look up and a large black male youth in a hoodie (I'm not even joking, I wish I was) is staring at me mean mugging while walking with his friend, almost with a plotting look. So I quickly look back down as not to antagonize. So I keep moving bags into the cart and check again and he is still staring at me around 25 more paces from where I caught him the first time. Again I quickly keep bagging. We finish loading up and she takes my daughter to the restroom and I wait....
As I'm waiting, I know this look. I was a bad kid once myself. So I guess they probably made a rectangular walking pattern, and doubled back to the only doors left open to wait for me. Low and behold I catch him scoping me again with his friend from the women's clothing section, which is right next to the exit, trying to hide. He notices me notice him. So as we walk out I check my 6 to see if he is following, he isn't. I check left and right when we leave to make sure he doesn't have people waiting. We're clear. So we walk to the car and I notice a young black woman in the drivers seat of a running car freaking out on the phone. Then I tell her and my daughter to get into the car, I can take them both myself but I can't cover them too without using my firearm if one attacks me and one attacks them. The girl notices us notice her, and nervously keeps looking at us....
So I know some shit is about to pop off now, I mentally prepare myself to do whatever has to be done and act quickly if necessary. I put the cart in the kennel and as I'm walking back to my car, the two dudes are walking to theirs which is diagonal from mine. The same dude is still staring at me. I could tell he was sizing me up to see if he wanted to try and jump, the girl was freaking out and I walked up to my door and proceed to get into my car the same time they do. I'm telling you from the bottom of my soul I think they were about to try and rob or assault me and my family. And that shit WASN'T going to happen.
See if it was just me, it would've been different. I have no doubt in my mind I could've taken them both. But since the fiancée and kid were with me it complicated things so much. I could've beaten them both in a fight 2 on 1 I believe, but I couldn't account for my family too. As I was sitting at home a few minutes ago, I realized if they were armed, I would have been in trouble. I can't lay suppressive fire with an XDs .45 with 6 rounds every shot would be critical. There would be no room for error. I was severely at a disadvantage in that situation.
Am I paranoid? Would that situation have set off alarms and red flags in your mind with the current state of events? Not to mention the city I live in has some really ghetto areas but also some really extravagant and rich areas. I was actually in the more upscale area at the time. One thing I know is I won't be treading lightly with an XDs .45 anymore. I will be carrying my XDm .40 compact and a full size spare mag. Thanks for your opinions, but please keep everything civil.
Quick write-up. I don't have time to proofread right now and haven't read the majority of responses.
I'm with IG. This is a pointless thread. Very few people have good suggestions. For example (one of many), smiling can came across as aggressive in some regions in this country, it could also come across as a sign of weakness or a dozen other things. I can't tell you exactly how you should have acted because I wasn't there but an assertive presence indicating that you recognize their presence is usually enough (usually). If you are alarmed beyond that store security officers and contacting le are good options.
You should have signals worked out with your fiancé and child. In that situation, there is no potty break, you need to gtfo. Are why the hell are you wasting time returning the cart? Mindful thinking! The cart in a worst case scenario can even provide a benefit by providing a reactionary gap. Good SA and know what distances you can defend. If things don't look right and the guys are entering that zone, a loud verbal get back (or whatever) is advisable. Of course at this point, it's go time and you have to be ready to do what you need to do. Hopefully they back of or maybe it was an misunderstanding.
And this dumbass talk about being able to take two guys (you believe) is moronic. I have a feeling you have never been in a real street fight. Despite your, most likely misplaced, confidence, street fights are ugly and no place for hesitation. They are very close to deadly force encounters and can turn into one as fast as someone pulls a knife or a rock (of course even hands can be a deadly threat). Not saying you can't win but even with superior training, experience, equipment, and violence of action, you can be killed. Distance is your friend even if it means communicating that you're armed and you will kill them (if you aren't ready to pull the trigger). Of course all bad guys won't be deterred by this so you have to be ready to follow through (so don't say it unless you mean it and can reasonably justify your actions).
More than anything, I think you need to come up with a plan with your family for such circumstances.
P.S. Suppressive fire? I missed that gem. I'm at a loss for words.
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