View Full Version : ACLU Releases info on LE Agencies/license plate collection & tracking data
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/aclu-finds-license-plate-scanners-on-the-rise-creating-de-facto-government-tracking-system/2013/07/17/9fda2a8a-eee9-11e2-bb32-725c8351a69e_story.html
-From the article-
Using automated scanners, law enforcement agencies across the country have amassed millions of digital records on the location and movement of every vehicle with a license plate, according to a study published Wednesday by the American Civil Liberties Union. Affixed to police cars, bridges or buildings, the scanners capture images of passing or parked vehicles and note their location, uploading that information into police databases. Departments keep the records for weeks or years, sometimes indefinitely.
.As the technology becomes cheaper and more ubiquitous, and federal grants focus on aiding local terrorist detection, even small police agencies are able to deploy more sophisticated surveillance systems. While the Supreme Court ruled in 2012 that a judge’s approval is needed to track a car with GPS, networks of plate scanners allow police effectively to track a driver’s location, sometimes several times every day, with few legal restrictions. The ACLU says the scanners assemble what it calls a “single, high-resolution image of our lives.”
-End Snippet-
When the technology is cheap/prevalent enough, coupled with the FBI facial recognition system, the NSA data collection capabilities and all the drones buzzing over head- you have a system of complete control over the citizenry.
Yet many here will say, there is no need for concern...
I AM very concerned with the azimuth we are on.
Even if these systems were not being abused now (AND THEY ARE!) there is a great chance someone in the future will abuse them for personal or political gain.
I am especially concerned with the growing ability (And for what?) of our government to track us constantly (Criminal or not) and listen into any electrical communication out there in the ether...
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 14:41
We've had great success with our tag readers
brickboy240
07-17-13, 15:00
Like the Patriot Act....sold to you and I as "protection" and "for our own good" but we know how that ends up.
America is slowly becoming a high surveillance police state.
-brickboy240
And here I am complaining about having to change my tags every 2 yrs when the Army PCS's me
Love the Plate readers...they do great work.
We've had great success with our tag readers
I am aware of and understand the benefit of such a system.
What I am getting at is the potential for abuse. And the increasing ease at which abuse is possible with all of these systems.
With all of this technology being implemented creating a geometric system of control- I am worried about what all of this CAN and eventually WILL be used for. We are already privy to NSa, IRS, and other such abuses, what about the secrets hidden in the closet we have no clue about?
Why must the government continually control more and more aspects of- and spy on us in our every day lives- the lives of NON-CRIMINALS?
It just isn't how this country is supposed to be, terrorist threats or otherwise.
We have slowly let TPTB wittle away our basic right to privacy and freedom in exchange for a sense of security that isn't- and never can be; real.
I am increasingly concerned these tools will be used in an evil capacity beyond the intended and beneficial/good sort of uses.
Just look at what is going on- NSA, IRS, ACA, NDAA, PAtriot Act, Homeland Security, etc, etc, etc- and connect the dots. We are being subverted into believeing that the govenrments total control of us is the only way we can be "Safe"- as if the promise of safety can ever be delivered upon?
Just because a tool helps you catch criminals does not mean it should be used, nor makes it legal or just.
If we micro-chipped (RFID) everyone at birth, we could basically stop all crime, or solve it all VERY easily after the fact, but are you willing to do this, to give up that freedom, to catch criminals easier? I AM NOT!
With the ability to track/catalogue each of us constantly getting easier and easier, the line being constantly crossed and redrawn in the sand- where will it end; where should it end?
I fear the day the switch is pulled and we are all living under a TOTAL police state of constant/complete control of every aspect of our lives- that is where all of this is leading us (Historical/empirical evidence of what governments do with great power and all...), all of these things are not leading us to candy land or a better America in any sense...
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 15:38
I don't care if the government knows a little about my travels as it only shows a area that my vehicle maybe scanned at. With the way are sociality is imploding if it helps narrow down the movements of criminals or terrorists then so be it.
Hell the government already knows were you live, work and spend your dollars if you use credit or debit cards so how is this affecting your daily life from the norm.
As for abuse of the information they receive what can they really do with it?
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 15:43
Why must the government continually control more and more aspects of- and spy on us in our every day lives- the lives of NON-CRIMINALS?
How are you being spied on if a digitial image of the license plate of your vehicle is taken while driving down the road? Are you also being spied upon if you pull into a store and the store's camera records you?
Just because a tool helps you catch criminals does not mean it should be used, nor makes it legal or just.
What makes the system illegal or unjust to you?
If we micro-chipped (RFID) everyone at birth, we could basically stop all crime, or solve it all VERY easily after the fact, but are you willing to do this, to give up that freedom, to catch criminals easier? I AM NOT!
Micro-chipping people would be a clear 4th amendment violation versus a picture of your license plate being taken.
I don't care if the government knows a little about my travels as it only shows a area that my vehicle maybe scanned at. With the way are sociality is imploding if it helps narrow down the movements of criminals or terrorists then so be it.
Hell the government already knows were you live, work and spend your dollars if you use credit or debit cards so how is this affecting your daily life from the norm.
Put all those smaller pieces together (Credit card data, phone data, computer data, driving data, Drones, facial recognition, ETC) and what you have is a geometric system that can be used to totally control and dominate a citizenry.
I am not very keen on the idea. YMMV.
This one aspect might not affect my daily life so much, but all of it coupled together is affecting me quite a bit. And could potentially affect each and every one of us in a VERY negative way if TPTB so desired.
Can you answer my question as to why the Government needs to spy on and control more and more aspects of our lives (Non criminals!)? it is a trend that hasn't slowed, but sped up over time. And if you think this progression of more and more control, more data, more eavesdropping, more info- will end with everyone free and happy hand in hand singing Kumbaya my lord, please enlighten me on how you come to that POV?
The progression of these systematic intrusions into- and control of every aspect of our lives is ****ed up.
As for abuse of the information they receive what can they really do with it?
Again, not much given that one aspect. But used in conjunction with all the other abilities I have stated, it can be used for many reasons; some good, some bad.
How are you being spied on if a digitial image of the license plate of your vehicle is taken while driving down the road? Are you also being spied upon if you pull into a store and the store's camera records you?
Not really apples to apples are they? The license plate data is tored and catalogued; the store camers erases after a certain timeframe for starters. The license plate data can be used to track you, just like GPS or Micro-chipping, not as easily or as well, but used in a similar way none the less.
What makes the system illegal or unjust to you?
I do not feel it is just, due to the fact it could be used in conjunction wiht other systems to create a level of control over my life that is uneccesary and wrong. It may not be that way right now, but things evolve, and I have little doubt systems such as this will evolve to provide more liberty.
It isn't really this single aspect that I find illegal or unjust, it is the bigger picture and how all of the things listed can work together to be used in nefarious ways.
Micro-chipping people would be a clear 4th amendment violation versus a picture of your license plate being taken.
[COLOR="royalblue"]A bad comparison I admit.
Just used to illustrate the evolution of these technologies; and how society accepts these intrusions more and more- trading liberty for safety alongside the evolving technolgies/capabilities.
For instance what if a national ID card was implemented (It has been legilsated already) that had an RFID chip in it (Passports and DL's in some states already have them). You would have to posses one to travel. Some would (And have) argued that it is not a violation of 4A rights. COLOR]
I can see how I may come off as being a bit paranoid with all of this, but just think of these systems as separate parts of a greater whole and ask yourself if this level of control, ability to spy on and collect data on non-criminals and tracking capabilities is really a good thing- is it really analogous to the ideals and intent of our constitution?
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 16:10
Easy enough to defeat three words for you, Photo Mask Covers . . . google them. ;)
There is also some spray on shit that comes in a rattle can.
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 16:12
Basically the government sees what are society has become and what it is progressing to be in terms of lawlessness and moral corruption so they are just trying to keep a eye on things so to speak.
The greatest generation (born in the 30/40/50's) are passing away in large numbers everyday and what is replacing them is scary to say the least. While there maybe a good number of folks who were raised right and are of sound moral code they are hugely out numbered by the decay of society.
So with this decline a greater vigilance must be erected.
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 16:15
Not really apples to apples are they? The license plate data is tored and catalogued;
How is it stored and cataloged? I know how are systems work, but I'm curious to see how you think the systems are ran (and I know all of them can be used differently).
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 16:22
Easy enought to defeat three words for you, Photo Mask Covers . . . google them. ;)
There is also some spray on shit that comes in a rattle can.
I had the chance to speak with someone who is involved with the photo stop light cameras program not to long ago and they basically said nothing really obscures the tag were they cant read it.
Also I have seen a few magazine tests on such covers and if I recall correctly even Myth Busters tested the latest ones and they didn't work.
Plus in closing most states have some kind of law prohibiting the use of plate obscuring devices which have some large penalties and possible vehicle impoundments.
Voodoo_Man
07-17-13, 16:24
We've had great success with our tag readers
Really?
Because, we have not. We have a few dozen cars equipped with them and our successful hit is about 5% or so.
As for "storing and cataloging" I do not really care what ALCU thinks is going on, there is no cataloging, unless its by date/time (which is standard practice with almost everything) and no one is being singled out.
I read the "department eyes only" assessment done by an independent third party contractor made specifically to parallel the ACLU's and it was a big bust, they basically said that its a huge amount of data going to waste because there is no one and/or no system in most cases there to interpret it.
How is it stored and cataloged? I know how are systems work, but I'm curious to see how you think the systems are ran (and I know all of them can be used differently).
I should have said stored and POTENTIALLY catalogued.
The info is kept in a database- no? Indefinitely in some places.
I'll reiterate, I am not so much against/woorried about this single aspect/tool. Just trying to show how more and more, our privacy and everyday lives are invaded by our governmetn andhow it is used to control us and will be used to gain greater control as technologies evolve and people wish to control more of our lives.
Why should my license plate be stored in a LE database indefinitely if I am not involved in criminal activity? Why should I pay taxes for this- especailly when we are all but bankrupt?
Unfettered data storage is an invasion of privacy.
Why should my phone conversations/emails/ETC be stored in an NSA data center if I am not involved in any criminal activity? Why should I pay taxes for this- especially when we are all but bankrupt?
I just see these individual tools and programs being used and can see a bigger picture forming- how someone with motivation could use each of these tools in conjunction with one another to wreak great havoc on an individuals life or even all of society.
Why are our lives being intruded more and more by a Government that grows more and more each day?
In my opinion- it is not what this country was built upon, how it was intended to be and all ofthis control is not going to provide us with more liberty or freedom.
The propensity to use these systems/tools/programs in a malevolent ways grows every day.
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 16:28
Really?
Because, we have not. We have a few dozen cars equipped with them and our successful hit is about 5% or so.
As for "storing and cataloging" I do not really care what ALCU thinks is going on, there is no cataloging, unless its by date/time (which is standard practice with almost everything) and no one is being singled out.
I read the "department eyes only" assessment done by an independent third party contractor made specifically to parallel the ACLU's and it was a big bust, they basically said that its a huge amount of data going to waste because there is no one and/or no system in most cases there to interpret it.
I think it has a lot to do with "What the scanning system is looking for" and the density and diversity of vehicles scanned to what the successful hit rate will be. Plus the area of operation is also a hugh factor to hit ratio as if your driving thur a million dollar neighborhood or a high crime area.
Alpha Sierra
07-17-13, 16:32
You beat cops are looking at this at the micro level. Some of us are looking at it from the high macro level.
We don't care what Podunk County Sheriff's Office does with the license plate data (for the most part). We care what DHS and the FBI can do with it should they want to.
And please don't tell me the "infrastructure" to collect a national database of license plate reader hits does not exist. The fact that it doesn't does not place it outside the realm of probability in the near future. The technology has been there for a while.
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 16:33
Really?
Because, we have not. We have a few dozen cars equipped with them and our successful hit is about 5% or so.
I was involved in testing mobile tag readers for my agency roughly 6 years ago. We had 2 systems (made by different manufacturers) and one blew goats while the other wasnt that bad.
With that being said; we have had more success with the stationary readers than the car-based ones
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 16:43
Some of us are looking at it from the high macro level.
While not having an understanding of the data that's actually captured or what is done with it.
We care what DHS and the FBI can do with it should they want to.
And what are they going to do with it?
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 16:46
The info is kept in a database- no? Indefinitely in some places.
I dont see the need in keeping the image for an extended period of time. We retain ours for a short period of time and then its dumped.
how someone with motivation could use each of these tools in conjunction with one another to wreak great havoc on an individuals life or even all of society.
Are you opposed to the DMV computer system?
I sure hope all you folks who are OK with the readers are also %100 OK with holder and obama admin going after GZ even though he was found not guilty !
cause this is what happens when big gov gets out of control and abuses its powers !
sure they can do good and its not the LEO that are going to do that its going to happen though by someone who has a bone to pick and will abuse that power ! like is happening now !
Voodoo_Man
07-17-13, 16:51
I think it has a lot to do with "What the scanning system is looking for" and the density and diversity of vehicles scanned to what the successful hit rate will be. Plus the area of operation is also a hugh factor to hit ratio as if your driving thur a million dollar neighborhood or a high crime area.
I wish I worked in the million dollar neighborhood, but that is not the case. I guess just looking at the whole program from the outside, its a huge waste of money for what we actually get from it.
I was involved in testing mobile tag readers for my agency roughly 6 years ago. We had 2 systems (made by different manufacturers) and one blew goats while the other wasnt that bad.
With that being said; we have had more success with the stationary readers than the car-based ones
Our system works, and it works well. The issue is that we don't have anyone doing anything on the back end with the data.
or so you are told or think you are
and could be you are dumping it which I would be OK with that its strictly a short term thing but its not ?
any system that is connected very good chance its being stored !
I dont see the need in keeping the image for an extended period of time. We retain ours for a short period of time and then its dumped.
Are you opposed to the DMV computer system?
Our Traffic enforcement readers and our auto theft unit ones were well in place b4 I knew Obama and Holder even existed...
Yeah I'm ok w/ using technology to help us get shitbirds off the streets.
Honu: you delete every picture of every person who has not given you permission at whatever event you photograph???
Data mining and harvesting, whatever you want to call it. It's real enough, but there are problems. There's not enough storage space to contain the data, not enough good applications to compile useful information and not enough cohesion within the system to actually put it to use. That being said.. It will happen some day! What you're seeing now is baby steps.. Just saying.. Ron
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 17:06
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the DMV currently has in its data base on a vehicle registration?
So if a Tag reader captures your vehicles registration tag and there is no associated hit why would anyone care? How would this non-hit affect your life in any way? How could this information be used in a sinister manner by the evil government?
I think more folks are worried that its just another system that can catch those unpaid tickets, bad registration/insurance or out standing warrants that can be associated to the registered owner of the tag/vehicle.
Tag readers are a enforcement tool and police use them as such but much past that I cant see any real harmful effect it would have on the general public.
I dont see the need in keeping the image for an extended period of time. We retain ours for a short period of time and then its dumped.
Are you opposed to the DMV computer system?
Actually- yes. I find the right to move about the country freely transitions from my feet, to a skateboard, to a sled, to a bike, to a scooter, to a car, to a train, to an airplane, etc. It should not be a permission granted by the government.
And before you try and posit that the DMV/licensing of citizens to drive promotes safety and makes people "safer" on the roads- please consider the pathetic "testing" one has to go through to get a license- a monkey with a learning disability could pass both the written and driving test.
Only those who choose to drive safely do so. Others choose to be idiots and regardless of licensing/DMV they will continue to drive like morons and roads/driving will always be dangerous.
Most laws regarding driving are meant to drum up quick revenue for the state anyways- not magically keep us safe. I think we all know this.
The Government turning these rights into mere permissions is bogus in my eyes. Most will not see things this way though and I understand that.
I also believe that a CCW permit is unconstitutional & illegal, as it turns a right to bear arms into a mere permission to bear arms.
Either you have a right or not, there is no grey area when it comes to rights.
Again, I realize I am in the minority here, but that is what I believe- and something that is backed up by the constitution and our founding fathers ideals and intent.
I really truly believe that the government should only operate within the limits of the constitution. No more, no less. Everything else falls under states/peoples control.
That is how our country was framed, and allowing the framework to be drastically changed- as it has; is one of the BIGGEST reasons we are in such dire straits.
Voodoo_Man
07-17-13, 17:11
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the DMV currently has in its data base on a vehicle registration?
So if a Tag reader captures your vehicles registration tag and there is no associated hit why would anyone care? How would this none hit affect your life in any way? How could this information be used in a sinister manner by the evil government?
I think more folks are worried that its just another system that can catch those unpaid tickets, bad registration/insurance or out standing warrants that can be associated to the registered owner of the tag/vehicle.
Tag readers are a enforcement tool and police use them as such but much past that I cant see any real harmful effect it would have on the general public.
Oh noeezzz the governments are keeping tabs on my vehicle!!!
NCPatrolAR
07-17-13, 17:13
Our system works, and it works well. The issue is that we don't have anyone doing anything on the back end with the data.
We are quick to jump on the system and start looking for stuff following an incident. Its been great for solving commercial B/E, ADW, and homicide cases so far. Obviously this is that backend application.
We also try to run operations where we are snatching up stolen cars and other wanted vehicles as soon as they pass a reader.
Voodoo_Man
07-17-13, 17:20
We are quick to jump on the system and start looking for stuff following an incident. Its been great for solving commercial B/E, ADW, and homicide cases so far. Obviously this is that backend application.
We also try to run operations where we are snatching up stolen cars and other wanted vehicles as soon as they pass a reader.
I WISH we had this capability.
We had an officer get into a brawl in front of her tag reader equipped car, did not go over radio with the stop (weird I know) and she got knocked out, a passerby helped her not get her weapon taken but, long/short is, no one had info on the car, and we have no way of accessing the info.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 17:25
Data mining and harvesting, whatever you want to call it. It's real enough, but there are problems. There's not enough storage space to contain the data, not enough good applications to compile useful information and not enough cohesion within the system to actually put it to use. That being said.. It will happen some day! What you're seeing now is baby steps.. Just saying.. Ron
Camp Williams near Bluffdale, UT is home to the Intelligence Community Comprehensive National Cybersecurity Initiative Data Center. It has been said that it has the capacity to store five zettabytes of data.
From Wicki:
The zettabyte is a multiple of the unit byte for digital information. The prefix zetta indicates the seventh power of 1000 and means 1021 in the International System of Units (SI), and therefore one zettabyte is one sextillion (one long scale trilliard) bytes.[1][2][3][4][5] The unit symbol is ZB.
1 ZB = 1000000000000000000000bytes = 10007bytes = 1021bytes = 1000exabytes = 1 billion terabytes.
Taking a pic at an event is not the same as logging it into a database with other info though ?
How about I decide to take pics or video of police at every scene we know how that goes ! Some sure dont like the rolls reversed !
Not saying your that way :)
Would all LEO like having themselves taped and a huge database put together on all there movements where they go to lunch when they leave the house where you park etc...
I doubt it ! If a bad guy got it could be abused of course I would say well its just for your protection !
No issues if you scan my plate find out all things are OK :)
Its keeping that info around I dont like :)
Its this administration that is starting to step out of bounds with power abuse ! And what will the next one do or the one after that ?
And holder is part of obamas admin that is why I mention it !
And why the GZ thing is a prime example going after a single citizen ! In our country found not guilty and they are not happy and abusing power !
I am ok with using technology to get bad guys also !
And wish you had even more power but not at the cost of possible abuse and keeping that info !
Our Traffic enforcement readers and our auto theft unit ones were well in place b4 I knew Obama and Holder even existed...
Yeah I'm ok w/ using technology to help us get shitbirds off the streets.
Honu: you delete every picture of every person who has not given you permission at whatever event you photograph???
Ah but what if I'm at a wedding you're hired for and then the NSA taps your iMac before you've done any editing??? It's stored somewhere.
I'm just messing around now but I really think you guys take these conspiracy things too far...but hey it's a free country.
For now ;)
Actually- yes. I find the right to move about the country freely transitions from my feet, to a skateboard, to a sled, to a bike, to a scooter, to a car, to a train, to an airplane, etc. It should not be a permission granted by the government.
I also believe that a CCW permit is unconstitutional & illegal, as it turns a right to bear arms into a mere permission to bear arms.
If there were no roads you would not be able to travel freely. You would be trespassing from one person's property to the next. OR... they would grant you a license to pass..... they might even watch you. they might even mark their calendar as to the days you pass and the route you take.
The chunk of metal on your car is the license that allows it to pass on the roads. It's only a natural progression.
.... and trying to ignore or fight technology is akin to being the last buggy whip maker. Even if there were no laws there would still be technology. Everyone is watching everyone regardless of a specific instance.
Do you believe it should be illegal to hire a private investigator to document someone's daily activities?
I agree on the CCW though.
How does the procurement program work? I see a lot PBSO marked units around town, in addition to some of the municipal PD's and have yet to see the cameras. I even have 4 Deputies in my neighborhood, all within 50yds of my house. But, the only marked unit I have seen with the camera was a Palm Beach County School Board PD Crown Vic.
Sorry your idea why I dont like it because I am a criminal is pretty pathetic ! beyond belief for a LEO !
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the DMV currently has in its data base on a vehicle registration?
So if a Tag reader captures your vehicles registration tag and there is no associated hit why would anyone care? How would this non-hit affect your life in any way? How could this information be used in a sinister manner by the evil government?
I think more folks are worried that its just another system that can catch those unpaid tickets, bad registration/insurance or out standing warrants that can be associated to the registered owner of the tag/vehicle.
Tag readers are a enforcement tool and police use them as such but much past that I cant see any real harmful effect it would have on the general public.
I cant write but I am a computer genius :) nobody could hack me !
My brother has used info from readers to convict people the info is there its just going to take a case like the GZ one to abuse the system in the near future since the data is there and could be used against you even when innocent
Why has the gov(local FL state agency) setup a email asking for anyone to submit info on GZ so they can try to get him on other things !
Why has holder and obama got involved !
If you dont think that is scary over step then you and I differ in trust of our gov !
Ah but what if I'm at a wedding you're hired for and then the NSA taps your iMac before you've done any editing??? It's stored somewhere.
I'm just messing around now but I really think you guys take these conspiracy things too far...but hey it's a free country.
For now ;)
Why has the gov(local FL state agency) setup a email asking for anyone to submit info on GZ so they can try to get him on other things !
Why has holder and obama got involved !
But that's a corrupt government, not a misuse of technology. You can't stop technology. You can want to, you can stomp your feet and say no, but you can't stop it.
The problem is a not a corrupt device, it's a corrupt person or persons.
It's no different than the "guns kill people" so take the guns away.
The technology is not necessarily harmful. Obama and Holder are necessarily harmful because that's who they are. It doesn't matter what tools they use. It's all relative.
QuietShootr
07-17-13, 19:33
A couple of you are really in rare form today.
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 19:43
Sorry your idea why I dont like it because I am a criminal is pretty pathetic ! beyond belief for a LEO !
I never directed any comment at you what's so ever but it does seem that the anti establishment paranoid types always take a general comment to heart.
I have seen this tag reader conversation on other private sites and my opinion comes from the group consensus of why many folks don't like them.
DUH !
Its not the device its not the LEO using it for good its the data that is being collected and the ability for corrupt people to get ahold of it !
Its like storing your CC info on a site vs saying no I will put it in every time
Sure the site is doing it to be convenient and handy but when the data is used for bad it can go really bad !
No its not the same as guns kill people at all ?
Its more like ammo micro stamp and registration and then checking on us all the time !
I pay my registration and now every time I drive around they want to keep checking on me ?
So imagine you have to register your ammo and every time you go shooting they scan your ammo just to make sure you are not using it in a crime !
Of course you would be OK with this ?
So giving a dangerous powerful person or gov more info about you to use against you is not what I want to do :)
But that's a corrupt government, not a misuse of technology. You can't stop technology. You can want to, you can stomp your feet and say no, but you can't stop it.
The problem is a not a corrupt device, it's a corrupt person or persons.
It's no different than the "guns kill people" so take the guns away.
The technology is not necessarily harmful. Obama and Holder are necessarily harmful because that's who they are. It doesn't matter what tools they use. It's all relative.
What ever happened to the "right to be left alone"?
The takeaway from this is that the government just flat doesn't "trust" us on principle and thinks that hoovering up everything is a good thing--just in case.
Talk about a one-way relationship going toxic.
(Full disclosure...I have a retired badge in lucite on my desk. Not anti-good guys.)
SeriousStudent
07-17-13, 21:14
If I may be so bold?
I honestly do not think that anyone posting in this thread has concerns about the specific technology, but rather about the potential for "misuse" by bad people.
Much like the cars we all drive, the firearms we own - they are tools.
I think that the gentlemen posting in this thread are honorable men, who work hard to understand the law, and be it's servant.
A Crown Vic can race to the scene of a kidnapping, and rescue someone's daughter. It can also be stolen from a parking lot, and abused.
The technology is not the issue. Weak people in positions of power are. Let your POLITICIANS know that you do not wish to see things misused. Let them know over and over, in strong and uncertain terms. I have yet to meet a young deputy or patrolman feverishly rubbing his hands together over a laptop screen, drooling over ways to mercilessly crush people over TCP/IP.
Cops report to politicians, it's as simple as that. Why else do you think rank and file street cops support public gun ownership, and the crass empty suits at the top oppose it? It's just another side of that same tarnished coin, just a different tool.
As someone who works inside a very technical field, and is extremely aware of how to use and misuse that technology, some of the staunchest advocates you have are the people you rail against.
Just an observation.
But that's a corrupt government, not a misuse of technology. You can't stop technology. You can want to, you can stomp your feet and say no, but you can't stop it.
The problem is a not a corrupt device, it's a corrupt person or persons.
It's no different than the "guns kill people" so take the guns away.
The technology is not necessarily harmful. Obama and Holder are necessarily harmful because that's who they are. It doesn't matter what tools they use. It's all relative.
While I think the argument you state has some very good points there is one counter point that is hard to ignore. Would you give a convicted serial killer a gun?? That is, in essence, what you are doing when you grant government more and more power over you. Our very own government has a pretty checkered past when it comes to making good choices. Condoning the buying and selling of people like slabs of meat. A campaign of ethnic cleansing and throwing citizens into refugee camps without any probable cause.
I'm ok with the technology, but I worry about a government having access to it.
I haven't really worried much about my plates being tracked and the DHS knowing that into to soccer every Sunday and to the gym every day. Nor do in care that they may have pics of my car at the local gentlemens club (I wasn't ther just my car somehow.... I swear).
I do however wonder what all this is leading to? Nobody though anything about VOIP or Internet traffic until they realized that people were hacking in and stealing their information. As they say its all fun and games till someone looses an eye. And as far as the government goes they have a bad track record when handling sharp sticks.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-13, 21:23
What ever happened to the "right to be left alone"?
The takeaway from this is that the government just flat doesn't "trust" us on principle and thinks that hoovering up everything is a good thing--just in case.
Talk about a one-way relationship going toxic.
(Full disclosure...I have a retired badge in lucite on my desk. Not anti-good guys.)
“The right free people value most is the right to be left alone”.
– Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis (1916 to 1939)
SeriousStudent
07-17-13, 21:25
TAZ, clearly we were typing at the same time, and thinking along similar paths.
I agree, I honestly don't think you can stop technology. The genie rarely seems to ever fit snugly again into the bottle.
Which is why involvement in policy, through your elected officials, is crucially important. If you have some decent folk at the helm or as watchdogs, my gut tends to rumble a lot less.
Really?
......
I read the "department eyes only" assessment done by an independent third party contractor made specifically to parallel the ACLU's and it was a big bust, they basically said that its a huge amount of data going to waste because there is no one and/or no system in most cases there to interpret it.
So it gets deleted immediately?
Didn't think so.
The database has always been the goal. Tagged with date, time and cruiser's GPS (good enough for location purposes).
Everything else is just an app to be written. How many people go to that Walmart? Their age, registered address, tax filings, whatever.
The app was never critical. It's always been the database.
I dont see the need in keeping the image for an extended period of time. We retain ours for a short period of time and then its dumped.
Are you opposed to the DMV computer system?
Some agencies/states are storing the hits for up to 5 years. I think MD law requires it to be purged after 1 year. In many cases, there are no requirements or controls over storage.
The DMV database doesn't have the capacity to track anything once it leaves the tag agency, so that's not a good comparison.
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the NSA currently has in its data base on phone and internet metadata? After all, it's not like it's an actual recording of your conversation or browser information, it's just your phone or computer.
So if a Tag reader captures your vehicles registration tag and there is no associated hit why would anyone care? How would this non-hit affect your life in any way? How could this information be used in a sinister manner by the evil government?
I think more folks are worried that its just another system that can catch those unpaid tickets, bad registration/insurance or out standing warrants that can be associated to the registered owner of the tag/vehicle.
Tag readers are a enforcement tool and police use them as such but much past that I cant see any real harmful effect it would have on the general public.
This would be a much more relevant comparison. Personally I'm not sure about the overall effects this has or will have on the public at large. What I do know is that if it would cause reasonable law abiding citizens to feel uncomfortable about exercising their rights to freedom of movement, the benefits in crime fighting would be outweighed by that concern.
I never directed any comment at you what's so ever but it does seem that the anti establishment paranoid types always take a general comment to heart.
I have seen this tag reader conversation on other private sites and my opinion comes from the group consensus of why many folks don't like them.
You don't necessarily need to agree with that sentiment, but a reasonable person would at least consider it from a concerned person's point of view before dismissing it out of hand I think. :confused:
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 22:10
Glocktogo posted,
Originally Posted by PA PATRIOT
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the NSA currently has in its data base on phone and internet metadata? After all, it's not like it's an actual recording of your conversation or browser information, it's just your phone or computer.
My post grow words all by itself, must be them NSA guys messing with my internet connection again.
Glocktogo posted,
Originally Posted by PA PATRIOT
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the NSA currently has in its data base on phone and internet metadata? After all, it's not like it's an actual recording of your conversation or browser information, it's just your phone or computer.
My post grow words all by itself, must be them NSA guys messing with my internet connection again.
You and everyone else knows that by posting the alterations in red rather than bold, I made the change. Let's not get our undies in a bunch now! :D
But seriously, doesn't that comparison put it in a different light? The reason I say this is because I'm not necessarily against plate readers, traffic cameras, pedestrian surveillance cameras, phone and internet usage data collection, fusion centers, etc., etc. It's because of the incrementalism and "camel's nose under the tent", "frog in a pot of water" thing. It's not really a slippery slope anymore because so many of these "public safety" measures were sold on the concept that they would never be misused, have plenty of oversight and not lead to further intrusion.
All of that has been proven to be a lie. Where is that bright line? How long will it remain where it currently is? It's been moved so many times that no one can really say for sure. What we do know is that a great many "good" deeds by governments in history have gone on to be proven bad and ultimately reviled as shameful episodes in our past.
It's at least worth a period of reflection and critical analysis, don't you think? :confused:
I still don't see anyone giving a definitive explanation on how stored tag reader data from a camera is any different from say the information the DMV currently has in its data base on a vehicle registration?
So if a Tag reader captures your vehicles registration tag and there is no associated hit why would anyone care? How would this non-hit affect your life in any way? How could this information be used in a sinister manner by the evil government?
I think more folks are worried that its just another system that can catch those unpaid tickets, bad registration/insurance or out standing warrants that can be associated to the registered owner of the tag/vehicle.
Tag readers are a enforcement tool and police use them as such but much past that I cant see any real harmful effect it would have on the general public.
DMV is static.
The tag reader database is dynamic. Want to find a certain something/pattern/whatever? No problem. A clever excel macro and you're there.
The actual hard part, the data, has been taken care of.
BFD, I run a plate in this system and it tells me everywhere that plate was seen in the past. This is historical data, very spotty historical data. Data about a license plate, the property of the state, a plate which is publicly displayed without any reasonable expectation in privacy. A query of a plate, that is all you can input, will display where the plate was seen; on the expressway in town A in September, at the Airport in town B in May, at some random intersection two weeks in town C. This is hardly earth shattering, privacy robbing data and frankly doesn't say too damn much about anything useful. Where it is useful is displaying wanted vehicles to the patrol unit with the reader. Be those stolen vehicles, AMBER ALERTS, or even just mundane documentary violations like expired tags, registrations, or insurance.
PA PATRIOT
07-17-13, 23:02
You and everyone else knows that by posting the alterations in red rather than bold, I made the change. Let's not get our undies in a bunch now! :D
But seriously, doesn't that comparison put it in a different light? The reason I say this is because I'm not necessarily against plate readers, traffic cameras, pedestrian surveillance cameras, phone and internet usage data collection, fusion centers, etc., etc. It's because of the incrementalism and "camel's nose under the tent", "frog in a pot of water" thing. It's not really a slippery slope anymore because so many of these "public safety" measures were sold on the concept that they would never be misused, have plenty of oversight and not lead to further intrusion.
All of that has been proven to be a lie. Where is that bright line? How long will it remain where it currently is? It's been moved so many times that no one can really say for sure. What we do know is that a great many "good" deeds by governments in history have gone on to be proven bad and ultimately reviled as shameful episodes in our past.
It's at least worth a period of reflection and critical analysis, don't you think? :confused:
No undies in a bunch here as I run "Commando" :D
Some believe that the government is over reaching with its programs which check aka spy on the people both domestically and aboard and that's fine but I currently agree with the opposite side of that position that the government has allowed "special interest groups" to run amuck for so long it has endangered the nations security. I don't see things like plate readers, facial recognition and outside observing cameras as being all that intrusive and unless your a person of special interest to L/E or the Feds then how does it injurer anybody? Sure any program can be abused and some have but all that paranoia that everything the government is involved in is in some way to ruin are lives is a little far reaching.
I do believe that limited enforcement and observation programs like those listed are needed to play catch up with a declining society.
Like I said, I'm not really sure where I stand on this particular item. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and enjoying some healthy debate. :)
NCPatrolAR
07-18-13, 00:45
The DMV database doesn't have the capacity to track anything once it leaves the tag agency, so that's not a good comparison.
I asked about DMV due to the differences in the amoun of data that is available there. The plate reader has an image of your tag and the rear if your vehicle along with the date, time, and location where the image was taken. I can do a lot more with DMV info than plate reader data
I asked about DMV due to the differences in the amount of data that is available there. The plate reader has an image of your tag and the rear if your vehicle along with the date, time, and location where the image was taken. I can do a lot more with DMV info than plate reader data
Yep, and I can pull up a ton of stuff on MobileCOP with just a plate number.
Don Robison
07-18-13, 01:18
Why has the gov(local FL state agency) setup a email asking for anyone to submit info on GZ so they can try to get him on other things !
That was/is the U.S. DOJ.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/17/doj-seeking-tips-in-zimmerman-probe/
On plate readers, I guess I'm apathetic towards the subject since no amount of my agreeing or disagreeing will change their use, uses or implementation.
Thanks some other article said local :)
That was/is the U.S. DOJ.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/17/doj-seeking-tips-in-zimmerman-probe/
On plate readers, I guess I'm apathetic towards the subject since no amount of my agreeing or disagreeing will change their use, uses or implementation.
The end game is to track everyone, all the time, everywhere. It's for your own good.
If it saves one child, it's worth it, if you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about.
It's what's for dinner.
davidjinks
07-18-13, 06:41
I can understand using this technology in conjunction with a legal stop. Whatever it may be, traffic violations, known wanted suspect etc.
What I don't agree with is the fact this technology is being used just to "fish" for people. At least that's what I'm taking away from this whole ordeal.
Here's my question, and one that hasn't been answered (at least from what I've seen):
What is the PC and/or RAS to use this technology all the time?
Why would any person in this country be subject to this type of surveillance at anytime at the whim of law enforcement?
Where I currently work, I and many other coworkers have been subject to this. Unmarked cars with camera systems following cars and running plates. I've known about this for a bit of time now. I've talked to local and state police as well as CID and FBI. They all said the same thing; They're (LE) are looking for criminals.
I'm not a criminal and yet I'm being subject to an investigation. Lets be honest, that's exactly what's happening, LE is conducting an investigation to find out if you're a bad guy.
Again I'll say (So no one can cry about being anti-LE):
I agree using this technology in conjunction with a legit stop. I do not agree with this technology being used to fish.
Is your day in anyway obstructed by these "investigations"???
Maybe some technology or super powers exist which we don't know about that can help us differentiate between the good citizens and bad which drive the same cars you do, wear the same clothes you do and have 1 of the 3 common skin colors in this country...you know of such super powers???
Cause when I'm looking for your stolen ride or (insert whatever crime you're a victim off) I doubt you'll care how the end result is achieved.
davidjinks
07-18-13, 07:05
I'm assuming you're directing this towards me?
Of course I'll just take your current answer as par for the course. You completely missed my point and my SUPPORT OF THE TECHNOLOGY.
How is it that you can post in GD without the required post count? Any mods wanna chime in about that?
Is your day in anyway obstructed by these "investigations"???
Maybe some technology or super powers exist which we don't know about that can help us differentiate between the good citizens and bad which drive the same cars you do, wear the same clothes you do and have 1 of the 3 common skin colors in this country...you know of such super powers???
Cause when I'm looking for your stolen ride or (insert whatever crime you're a victim off) I doubt you'll care how the end result is achieved.
EDITED TO ADD: If you guys would have asked me to edit my post I would have done so without question. No need to come in and edit posts secretly without leaving the usual edited by trace.
How is it that you can post in GD without the required post count? Any mods wanna chime in about that?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=131359
It's a short thread, read every post. ;)
Sent via Tapatalk
I can understand using this technology in conjunction with a legal stop. Whatever it may be, traffic violations, known wanted suspect etc.
What I don't agree with is the fact this technology is being used just to "fish" for people. At least that's what I'm taking away from this whole ordeal.
Here's my question, and one that hasn't been answered (at least from what I've seen):
What is the PC and/or RAS to use this technology all the time?
Why would any person in this country be subject to this type of surveillance at anytime at the whim of law enforcement?
Where I currently work, I and many other coworkers have been subject to this. Unmarked cars with camera systems following cars and running plates. I've known about this for a bit of time now. I've talked to local and state police as well as CID and FBI. They all said the same thing; They're (LE) are looking for criminals.
I'm not a criminal and yet I'm being subject to an investigation. Lets be honest, that's exactly what's happening, LE is conducting an investigation to find out if you're a bad guy.
Again I'll say (So no one can cry about being anti-LE):
I agree using this technology in conjunction with a legit stop. I do not agree with this technology being used to fish.
They started using a registration plate scanner in our area approximately 10 years ago. The proponents claimed more stolen vehicles would be recovered by using the scanner while driving through high crime neighborhoods.
In our area state statute and case law authorizes running plates at random while patrolling. Probable cause or reasonable suspicion are not required to make a registration inquiry when the plate is in public view. People with a computer in their squad car can run plates at random while driving. Once in a while an officer will make a good arrest after running a plate and finding a bad egg driving the vehicle.
As far as using the registration plate scanner in conjunction with a legit stop, there would be no need to have the technology. If an officer stops a vehicle for a traffic violation or an investigative stop, they normally have the capability to make a registration inquiry with the computer inside their squad car.
An advantage to having the registration plate scanner would be a reduction in squad car crashes. If you don't have to remove a hand from the steering wheel and look down to make a registration inquiry, it makes it easier to stay focused on driving.
I am retired LEO and respect your opinion about privacy. There are a lot fewer officers available for patrol now compared to years past and technology is being used to replace officers by allowing fewer to perform the same number of tasks. Unfortunately, the more technology advances the less privacy we all have in our everyday lives.
The legislature authorizes the use of this technology and have the authority to place controlling measures on the use of the scanners. That would be a good place to address the issue if you want more restrictions on the use of scanners.
davidjinks
07-18-13, 09:03
I've read those threads already. Still have the same question...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=131359
It's a short thread, read every post. ;)
Sent via Tapatalk
davidjinks
07-18-13, 09:04
Thank you for your honest explanation. I appreciate it.
They started using a registration plate scanner in our area approximately 10 years ago. The proponents claimed more stolen vehicles would be recovered by using the scanner while driving through high crime neighborhoods.
In our area state statute and case law authorizes running plates at random while patrolling. Probable cause or reasonable suspicion are not required to make a registration inquiry when the plate is in public view. People with a computer in their squad car can run plates at random while driving. Once in a while an officer will make a good arrest after running a plate and finding a bad egg driving the vehicle.
As far as using the registration plate scanner in conjunction with a legit stop, there would be no need to have the technology. If an officer stops a vehicle for a traffic violation or an investigative stop, they normally have the capability to make a registration inquiry with the computer inside their squad car.
An advantage to having the registration plate scanner would be a reduction in squad car crashes. If you don't have to remove a hand from the steering wheel and look down to make a registration inquiry, it makes it easier to stay focused on driving.
I am retired LEO and respect your opinion about privacy. There are a lot fewer officers available for patrol now compared to years past and technology is being used to replace officers by allowing fewer to perform the same number of tasks. Unfortunately, the more technology advances the less privacy we all have in our everyday lives.
The legislature authorizes the use of this technology and have the authority to place controlling measures on the use of the scanners. That would be a good place to address the issue if you want more restrictions on the use of scanners.
I've read those threads already. Still have the same question...
Right, they still haven't done anything about it. There was just one particular post that I found funny.
Sent via Tapatalk
Awesome post, davidjinks. I'll try to hit up a couple of your points...
Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, with regards to automobiles operating on public roads, is very low. Essentially, you're hanging government property (the plate, which shows that the car is legit and you rendered unto Caesar) in a visible manner, while operating on a public roadway. Having said that, my ultra-liberal town is so far only allowing us to use the ALPRs for parking enforcement (registration violations), and we can't put it on a police car. T2C made a good point that this technology is essentially doing what the cop in the car would be doing, except faster, without taking their eyes off the road. I submit that by manually entering the plate information onto my car computer, DOT/NCIC and your in-state equivalent are still keeping a record.
Following cars and running plates is done daily. I'll likely do this this afternoon. If your car looks like its doing something illegal, then yes, I can follow you and run your plate. Comes back to expectation of privacy. I won't/can't stop you unless/until I have some sort of articulable suspicion to do so. When that happens, I write a report. I usually explain it curbside, too. If you're concerned about your experience, I suggest requesting a call from the officer or the unit involved; when I've received calls from citizens that I've followed out of lots, or through rough neighborhoods, I've taken the time to explain what I was seeing, why that raises an eyebrow, and why I cut bait.
The technology is there, and the genie is not likely going back into the bottle. For local LE, data mining random plates is too resource intensive, except in major cases, and can't be done on a large scale, on the local level, yet. The road cops don't care if your evening commute goes through the porno store parking lot; as long as you don't have a dead hooker in your trunk and your plate's not expired/suspended/stolen.
Serious Student's advice is dead on. You don't like how the technology is being used? Get to your representatives at every level and voice your concern.
I think there was a similar thread about a year or so ago. Honu and I had a good conversation about this stuff. Honu: I deleted my subscriptions; any chance you have a link to that thread (very similar issue)?
davidjinks
07-18-13, 10:17
I'm trackin 100% with you. I know the exact post you're speaking of.
Right, they still haven't done anything about it. There was just one particular post that I found funny.
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davidjinks
07-18-13, 10:22
Thank you for your explanation as well.
Understand that I am not against this technology if used correctly and not abused. That is my main concern.
Awesome post, davidjinks. I'll try to hit up a couple of your points...
Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, with regards to automobiles operating on public roads, is very low. Essentially, you're hanging government property (the plate, which shows that the car is legit and you rendered unto Caesar) in a visible manner, while operating on a public roadway. Having said that, my ultra-liberal town is so far only allowing us to use the ALPRs for parking enforcement (registration violations), and we can't put it on a police car. T2C made a good point that this technology is essentially doing what the cop in the car would be doing, except faster, without taking their eyes off the road. I submit that by manually entering the plate information onto my car computer, DOT/NCIC and your in-state equivalent are still keeping a record.
Following cars and running plates is done daily. I'll likely do this this afternoon. If your car looks like its doing something illegal, then yes, I can follow you and run your plate. Comes back to expectation of privacy. I won't/can't stop you unless/until I have some sort of articulable suspicion to do so. When that happens, I write a report. I usually explain it curbside, too. If you're concerned about your experience, I suggest requesting a call from the officer or the unit involved; when I've received calls from citizens that I've followed out of lots, or through rough neighborhoods, I've taken the time to explain what I was seeing, why that raises an eyebrow, and why I cut bait.
The technology is there, and the genie is not likely going back into the bottle. For local LE, data mining random plates is too resource intensive, except in major cases, and can't be done on a large scale, on the local level, yet. The road cops don't care if your evening commute goes through the porno store parking lot; as long as you don't have a dead hooker in your trunk and your plate's not expired/suspended/stolen.
Serious Student's advice is dead on. You don't like how the technology is being used? Get to your representatives at every level and voice your concern.
I think there was a similar thread about a year or so ago. Honu and I had a good conversation about this stuff. Honu: I deleted my subscriptions; any chance you have a link to that thread (very similar issue)?
California may issue digital plates to make tracking easier. (http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/18/california-may-issue-digital-license-plates-privacy-groups-concerned/)
California may issue digital plates to make tracking easier. (http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/18/california-may-issue-digital-license-plates-privacy-groups-concerned/)
Yeah, that sounds like it won't cost a shitload of money that they don't have.:rolleyes:
If there were no roads you would not be able to travel freely. You would be trespassing from one person's property to the next. OR... they would grant you a license to pass..... they might even watch you. they might even mark their calendar as to the days you pass and the route you take.
The chunk of metal on your car is the license that allows it to pass on the roads. It's only a natural progression.
.... and trying to ignore or fight technology is akin to being the last buggy whip maker. Even if there were no laws there would still be technology. Everyone is watching everyone regardless of a specific instance.
Do you believe it should be illegal to hire a private investigator to document someone's daily activities?
I agree on the CCW though.
Not sure how you got that out of what I said.
No where did I say that we should "not have roads".
Or that we should try and ignore or fight technology. Just that we shouldn't allow it to be used against law abiding citizens and insure checks and ballances of power are in place so we can limit the potential for abuse. We need to make sure we don't allow these technologies to work against us (Anymore than they already do) and for a ruling class to dominate and control us via there implementation.
We should hold the federal government to the limits framed in the constitution and the rest should be states/peoples responsibility. As well we should demand and practice our rights as framed in the constitution and not allow them to be turned into mere permissions.
Doesn't really matter anyways, we are too far down the rabbit hole- think about it we are on a firearms/2A network/forum and 90% of the gents here are all for CCW laws, against people open carrying; some even want universal background checks! A FIREARMS/2A friendly network of guys and most of them are complacent with our most basic right being turned into a permission.
We've allowed the government to get to the point of no return, it is too big, has too much control and is not a government of, for or by the people anymore.
These technologies WILL be used against us in the future (They are being used against us now for christs sake) more and more and we will continue on the azimuth of turning into a totalitarian police state where we give up more and more freedom/right sin exchange for some "Safety" that can never exist.
You say: "A license plate being what ALLOWS you to travel on the road". Well your are correct we did allow our right to freely move amongst the United States be turned into a permission- and you seem to be okay with that as it is a "natural progression"...
Where is this natural progression taking us, into a land of more liberty and greater individual freedom- or to a distopic future of being a slave class to our overlords so they can fully keep us "safe"?
There are more slaves in this nation than free men. And it isn't going to magically go away with more government control via technologies that make said control easier and limit our freedom more and more.
I do not believe it is illegal/wrong to hire a PI.
That is not the same thing as a government keeping several databases of information, cameras on every street corner, drones flying in the air, facial recognition, wiretaps on all phone calls/transmissions, using government agencies to intimidate and deflate the will of the people, subverting the constitution- which WILL all eventually lead to and be used to control us more and more in every aspect of our lives.
If you haven't figured it out by now the end game of every single governemnt ever is to be in complete control of its citizenry- total dominance. Where do you think this "natural progression" is going to lead us?
The license plate data collection and databases are just a small piece of a much bigger picture, one small tool amongst many that when considerred in a braoder scope- are stripping us of our individual liberty in the name of safety- histroically "safety" is the promise of tyrants, one that has never been delivered upon.
Malo perculosam libertatum quam quietum servitum.
QuietShootr
07-18-13, 11:12
I have an awesome idea. Anyone who thinks this is okay should send me their address. I'll mail you a box of webcams, and you can put one in every room of your house, and in your car. Also, I'm going to stand outside your house with a camera and a long lens (no trespassing, dontcha know) and watch everything you do.
Oh, and I'm going to use a software-defined radio and a netbook to listen to every conversation and piece of RF that comes from you and your house. Also, I'm going to watch your internet usage with Wireshark and winpcap. That means I will see everything you look at, everything you buy, everything you email or talk about. Oh, let's not forget your car. I'm going to turn on the mic and GPS in your OnStar so I can hear everything in your car and know exactly where you are, all the time.
Trust me, I won't do anything with the information. You're not doing anything wrong, so why would you mind me watching you?
What's that you say? That's bullshit, and I can't do that??
I know this is going to be a mental stretch for a few of you, so try to think about this slowly:
An action that is wrong when carried out by an individual does not suddenly become moral when it's carried out by the group. If you don't want ME watching you, but you don't mind Shanequa the analyst being able to look through your entire life at will, congratulations. You have managed to reach the goal that Newspeak was intended to achieve: Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.
Let me save you some time here:
[insert standard paragraph containing vague accusations of criminality, paranoia, low intelligence, racism, etc]
QuietShootr
07-18-13, 11:15
Not sure how you got that out of what I said.
No where did I say that we should "not have roads".
Or that we should try and ignore or fight technology. Just that we shouldn't allow it to be used against law abiding citizens and insure checks and ballances of power are in place so we can limit the potential for abuse. We need to make sure we don't allow these technologies to work against us (Anymore than they already do) and for a ruling class to dominate and control us via there implementation.
We should hold the federal government to the limits framed in the constitution and the rest should be states/peoples responsibility. As well we should demand and practice our rights as framed in the constitution and not allow them to be turned into mere permissions.
Doesn't really matter anyways, we are too far down the rabbit hole- think about it we are on a firearms/2A network/forum and 90% of the gents here are all for CCW laws, against people open carrying; some even want universal background checks! A FIREARMS/2A friendly network of guys and most of them are complacent with our most basic right being turned into a permission.
We've allowed the government to get to the point of no return, it is too big, has too much control and is not a government of, for or by the people anymore.
These technologies WILL be used against us in the future (They are being used against us now for christs sake) more and more and we will continue on the azimuth of turning into a totalitarian police state where we give up more and more freedom/right sin exchange for some "Safety" that can never exist.
You say: "A license plate being what ALLOWS you to travel on the road". Well your are correct we did allow our right to freely move amongst the United States be turned into a permission- and you seem to be okay with that as it is a "natural progression"...
Where is this natural progression taking us, into a land of more liberty and greater individual freedom- or to a distopic future of being a slave class to our overlords so they can fully keep us "safe"?
There are more slaves in this nation than free men. And it isn't going to magically go away with more government control via technologies that make said control easier and limit our freedom more and more.
I do not believe it is illegal/wrong to hire a PI.
That is not the same thing as a government keeping several databases of information, cameras on every street corner, drones flying in the air, facial recognition, wiretaps on all phone calls/transmissions, using government agencies to intimidate and deflate the will of the people, subverting the constitution- which WILL all eventually lead to and be used to control us more and more in every aspect of our lives.
If you haven't figured it out by now the end game of every single governemnt ever is to be in complete control of its citizenry- total dominance. Where do you think this "natural progression" is going to lead us?
The license plate data collection and databases are just a small piece of a much bigger picture, one small tool amongst many that when considerred in a braoder scope- are stripping us of our individual liberty in the name of safety- histroically "safety" is the promise of tyrants, one that has never been delivered upon.
Malo perculosam libertatum quam quietum servitum.
This guy gets it.
Alpha Sierra
07-18-13, 11:29
I have an awesome idea. Anyone who thinks this is okay should send me their address. I'll mail you a box of webcams, and you can put one in every room of your house, and in your car. Also, I'm going to stand outside your house with a camera and a long lens (no trespassing, dontcha know) and watch everything you do.
Oh, and I'm going to use a software-defined radio and a netbook to listen to every conversation and piece of RF that comes from you and your house. Also, I'm going to watch your internet usage with Wireshark and winpcap. That means I will see everything you look at, everything you buy, everything you email or talk about. Oh, let's not forget your car. I'm going to turn on the mic and GPS in your OnStar so I can hear everything in your car and know exactly where you are, all the time.
Trust me, I won't do anything with the information. You're not doing anything wrong, so why would you mind me watching you?
What's that you say? That's bullshit, and I can't do that??
I know this is going to be a mental stretch for a few of you, so try to think about this slowly:
An action that is wrong when carried out by an individual does not suddenly become moral when it's carried out by the group. If you don't want ME watching you, but you don't mind Shanequa the analyst being able to look through your entire life at will, congratulations. You have managed to reach the goal that Newspeak was intended to achieve: Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.
Let me save you some time here:
[insert standard paragraph containing vague accusations of criminality, paranoia, low intelligence, racism, etc]
Thank you.
I'm sure the two or three cops who see nothing wrong with the likely repercussions of this technology will be along to tell you how ignorant and paranoid you (we) are.
davidjinks
07-18-13, 11:58
This brings the whole point I was trying to make up to the front...
If this technology is being used in conjunction with legitimate LE stops etc., I don't see it as a problem. It is a tool to assist with the LE job. Where my issue is is that states are putting them on road sides, bridges, over passes, traffic lights etc. that is what I have an issue with.
A tool to aid/assist legitimate LE job; roger that.
A tool to track every swingin Richard in this country just to track them; negative ghost rider.
I personally think technology like this is a double edged sword. Can it help catch/stop bad people; definitely. Can it be a used and abused illegally; absolutely.
Can it help catch/stop bad people; definitely. Can it be a used and abused illegally; absolutely.
Kind of like another piece of technology that we talk about here, from time to time.
All in agreement. I don't want to come across as the LEO saying "if it saves 1 life...". What I don't get is that this technology has been around for several years now, and the means to exploit it has been around for a while now, too. Remember, we're talking about agencies that can tell which way your front door swings from orbit, and that was several years ago. Individual officers have been misusing the DOT interfaces for a while now (i.e. using it as "dial a date"). The issue is the people who you put behind this technology.
Like other posters have said before, you're not going to dial back the clock on this stuff. You can't keep the technology out of their hands; you can only hope to put respectable, responsible, and accountable people in positions of power and responsibility, and change them out when they start forgetting that they're still citizens.
Its starts local. Like I mentioned to davidjinks; call your officers or their bosses. I work in one of the most historically liberal cities in the US. I like it because at least here, people know their rights, and have high expectations for us. Ask for a ride-along wherever you live; you might find that the officer agrees with the issues as they apply to the macro level. Some larger agencies also have citizens' academies, where you can see some of this technology, as well as its limitations (at least for the ground level users).
(If you're in southern WI, feel free to PM me.)
davidjinks
07-18-13, 12:30
We are both in full agreement.
Though this technology may have been around for (insert amout of years) the true abilities/ uses of it is just now coming to the forefront.
Kind of like another piece of technology that we talk about here, from time to time.
All in agreement. I don't want to come across as the LEO saying "if it saves 1 life...". What I don't get is that this technology has been around for several years now, and the means to exploit it has been around for a while now, too. Remember, we're talking about agencies that can tell which way your front door swings from orbit, and that was several years ago. Individual officers have been misusing the DOT interfaces for a while now (i.e. using it as "dial a date"). The issue is the people who you put behind this technology.
Like other posters have said before, you're not going to dial back the clock on this stuff. You can't keep the technology out of their hands; you can only hope to put respectable, responsible, and accountable people in positions of power and responsibility, and change them out when they start forgetting that they're still citizens.
Its starts local. Like I mentioned to davidjinks; call your officers or their bosses. I work in one of the most historically liberal cities in the US. I like it because at least here, people know their rights, and have high expectations for us. Ask for a ride-along wherever you live; you might find that the officer agrees with the issues as they apply to the macro level. Some larger agencies also have citizens' academies, where you can see some of this technology, as well as its limitations (at least for the ground level users).
(If you're in southern WI, feel free to PM me.)
This brings the whole point I was trying to make up to the front...
If this technology is being used in conjunction with legitimate LE stops etc., I don't see it as a problem. It is a tool to assist with the LE job. Where my issue is is that states are putting them on road sides, bridges, over passes, traffic lights etc. that is what I have an issue with.
A tool to aid/assist legitimate LE job; roger that.
A tool to track every swingin Richard in this country just to track them; negative ghost rider.
I personally think technology like this is a double edged sword. Can it help catch/stop bad people; definitely. Can it be a used and abused illegally; absolutely.
A valid point. It's not like a LEO is going to pop out of a box and go chase down the car thief at that overpass or stoplight. :confused:
I've linked this before but I believe it's appropriate here as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy7FVXERKFE
Please put this chip here in your arm. It really isn't that much to ask. What do you have to hide?
davidjinks
07-18-13, 13:23
And this is why I'm where I am right now with this whole thing.
A valid point. It's not like a LEO is going to pop out of a box and go chase down the car thief at that overpass or stoplight. :confused:
NCPatrolAR
07-18-13, 13:32
A valid point. It's not like a LEO is going to pop out of a box and go chase down the car thief at that overpass or stoplight. :confused:
Actually not a completely valid point. We regularly have people monitoring the PR systems for hits that instantky relay the hit and vehicle description to marked vehicles in the area so a stop can be attempted on the vehicle. This is in addition to the investigative purposes we have for the PR systems
davidjinks
07-18-13, 20:30
The issue is and will continue to be…Why?
What is the end goal of this type of monitoring system?
I can understand the "Looking for bad people", "Auto theft", etc. But let's be real, the majority of the people out there aren't criminals.
Yet, the majority of the people out there are being treated as if they are criminals. What other reason would there be to have such a massive dragnet?
Actually not a completely valid point. We regularly have people monitoring the PR systems for hits that instantky relay the hit and vehicle description to marked vehicles in the area so a stop can be attempted on the vehicle. This is in addition to the investigative purposes we have for the PR systems
NCPatrolAR
07-18-13, 21:32
The issue is and will continue to be…Why?
What is the end goal of this type of monitoring system?
I can understand the "Looking for bad people", "Auto theft", etc.
Looks like you answered your question.
Yet, the majority of the people out there are being treated as if they are criminals. What other reason would there be to have such a massive dragnet?
People are no more being treated as criminals than if a patrol officer was running their license plate at a stop light or if an officer doing surveillance notices a person's car and notes its arrival and departure time.
Actually not a completely valid point. We regularly have people monitoring the PR systems for hits that instantky relay the hit and vehicle description to marked vehicles in the area so a stop can be attempted on the vehicle. This is in addition to the investigative purposes we have for the PR systems
Thanks for the info.
Thank you for your honest explanation. I appreciate it.
You are welcome sir. Whether we agree or disagree on an issue, we should feel free to argue our point.
Long thread, didn't read it all.....You need look no further than the excesses of the IRS to understand that everything has the potential for abuse. How many folks went to jail or lost their jobs as a result of the IRS fiasco? Thought so........
It isn't the average street cop who will abuse this system. They're just trying to do their job with the tools made available to them. It is the corrupt politicians and their minions with whom you should be concerned.
Eurodriver
11-10-13, 17:06
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2013/04/03/1226611/817584-speedster-on-motorbike-obscures-number-plate.jpg
At some point, when scanners are mounted everywhere, it stops being 'looking for criminals' and starts being 'tracking the movement of everyone, everywhere, all the time'.
Why don't we just skip to the point where we all of the those black boxes in everyone's car transmit in real time the driving activities of the operator to a central LE entity. So when the driver is speeding they just send a citation in the mail same as the red light cameras.
Seems like the direction were heading anyway. You know, for the children... :rolleyes:
I've yet to feel threatened by digital scanners and think that even if all the billions of bits were stored, the gov would have no useful information. Anyway, with the reams per individual already compiled, I don't understand why plate info is significant. In my town the police sometimes run plate checks on out of state cars at motels and sometimes they catch a bad guy. Ds's facilitate this type of investigation. Has anyone considered that for decades people have listened to Radio Shack type police scanners where "your business" hits the air waves?
About chl's. Without some oversight, felons, the mentally ill, the retarded, the addicted, underage kids, illegal aliens, first time/first day gun owners and probably some other incompetents would have no limits on carrying weapons--concealed or not.
Eurodriver
11-10-13, 18:41
About chl's. Without some oversight, felons, Paid their debt to society, no? If they are still dangerous, they should still be in jail
the mentally ill, the retarded, Do they have the right to free speech, trial by jury, and other inalienable rights? Why take away their most basic one because of their mental ability?
the addicted, I hope you don't smoke cigarettes
underage kids, What makes an 18 year old incapable of doing what we legally allow a 21 year old to do?
illegal aliens, So they (or their parents) crossed the border illegally. Should they now suffer at the hands of criminals?
first time/first day gun owners So you have to own a gun for how long before you can carry it to defend yourself? Are you in favor of waiting periods as well?
and probably some other incompetents Like who?
would have no limits on carrying weapons--concealed or not.
Gun owners are our worst enemy...
Sir, you oversimplify complex issues. Felons serve sentences meted out by courts. Figuring out if they're still dangerous is not part of the judicial process. Regarding the mentally ill, if a person has been committed to an insane asylum, when he gets out, let him carry around you and not me. I say the same about the guy with a mental age of 8 or 10, especially if he has a second diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. Underage kids also include 12, 13, and 14 year olds. We know less about illegal aliens than we do our own citizens, except for incarcerated illegals. Some may be retarded and mentally ill felons who have the IQ of a slug although they just turned 14.
I would hope that when a person buys a handgun for the first time, that before he conceal carries, he can demonstrate that he can safely operate the weapon. If the guy is in a real bind, then he has to do what he has to do and take his chances. Waiting periods apply to purchases, and I'm not in favor of them.
An incompetent could be a habitual drunk or a person with a string of never ending misdemeanor arrests or a person with arrests and convictions for stalking, family violence, sex offenses like window peeping, exposing oneself to others, masturbating in theaters, and violations like bomb threats, terroristic threats, bestiality, and gay sex in public restrooms whether or not consensual.
I don't smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, use drugs, gamble, or chase women.
QuietShootr
11-11-13, 07:23
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/bishella/GIFS%20AND%20MEMES/love-this-thread.jpg
I don't care if the government knows a little about my travels as it only shows a area that my vehicle maybe scanned at. With the way are sociality is imploding if it helps narrow down the movements of criminals or terrorists then so be it.
Hell the government already knows were you live, work and spend your dollars if you use credit or debit cards so how is this affecting your daily life from the norm.
As for abuse of the information they receive what can they really do with it?
Hey, if you have nothing to hide.......right? :rolleyes:
Basically the government sees what are society has become and what it is progressing to be in terms of lawlessness and moral corruption so they are just trying to keep a eye on things so to speak.
The greatest generation (born in the 30/40/50's) are passing away in large numbers everyday and what is replacing them is scary to say the least. While there maybe a good number of folks who were raised right and are of sound moral code they are hugely out numbered by the decay of society.
So with this decline a greater vigilance must be erected.
Are you f*****g serious?
Eurodriver
11-11-13, 10:01
I don't smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, use drugs, gamble, or chase women.
I've done 3 of those things today and it's not even 11am! ;)
Willie, I understand your point and the logic behind your post but I was only trying to point out that too many gun owners seem to be okay with restrictions on gun ownership as long as it doesn't affect them. It would be quite easy for me to say that Texans who don't chase women shouldn't have guns because they're obviously not like us civilized city folk. But I don't. Because of that whole freedom thing.
montanadave
11-11-13, 10:51
I've done 3 of those things today and it's not even 11am! ;)
Just to clarify, did you count drugging the woman as one or two? :D
These were published in July 13. I thought I had included them, in my OP, but they weren't there...
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2013/07/YouAreBeingTracked.pdf
https://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-national-security/police-documents-license-plate-scanners-reveal-mass
along the same lines.... red light traffic cams. Corrupt from top to bottom. http://www.1140wrva.com/media/podcast-leland-conway-LelandConway/leland-conway-hour-3-111213-23964691/
Leyland has done several shows on this, from the companies and the government interaction, it's just mind numbing how wrong it is. It's worth the time to listen to the podcast.... I can't recall which episode where he revealed the company corruption that sells this stuff to the government.
If you don't listen to anything else, listen to the government official at the 3:30 mark.
So you are guilty until proven innocent and they will take your money by any means necessary to pay for your infraction. I guarantee your blood will be boiling if you listen to that whole segment.
Your where abouts pale in comparison. They are putting infrastructure in place that attaches to your bank account and personal belongings. Driven by profits and corruption from the onset.
Eurodriver
11-13-13, 11:27
along the same lines.... red light traffic cams. Corrupt from top to bottom. http://www.1140wrva.com/media/podcast-leland-conway-LelandConway/leland-conway-hour-3-111213-23964691/
Leyland has done several shows on this, from the companies and the government interaction, it's just mind numbing how wrong it is. It's worth the time to listen to the podcast.... I can't recall which episode where he revealed the company corruption that sells this stuff to the government.
If you don't listen to anything else, listen to the government official at the 3:30 mark.
So you are guilty until proven innocent and they will take your money by any means necessary to pay for your infraction. I guarantee your blood will be boiling if you listen to that whole segment.
Your where abouts pale in comparison. They are putting infrastructure in place that attaches to your bank account and personal belongings. Driven by profits and corruption from the onset.
These red light cameras are why we now have a Democratic Mayor for the first time in 60~ years and I hope that we get a Democratic governor in Florida too next year. There was a massive report done by a guy here locally that showed how ineffective they were. Crashes had actually increased for the first 6 months they were installed at the specific intersections they were installed in, and city-wide. He also found tons of data showing people taking right turns at 95 MPH (physically impossible) and people that had paid fines even though the light was still yellow when they were already through the entire intersection because they didn't want to risk paying court costs on top of it. The worst thing was that he found they had deliberately shortened yellow light times. After all this damning evidence came out what did the mayor do? Install 9 more cameras. Now he's out of a job and all the city has gotten is scorn from drivers and a recent problem of Sportbike riders doing wheelies through intersections. :o
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/08/shoot_out_the_red_lights_2_tra.html
Yep! That is exactly what they are bringing to Virginia. Exactly!.... and with the knowledge of the corruption prior to doing so.
Eurodriver
11-13-13, 11:54
These camera companies are making tens of millions from these cameras. So you know damn well their lobbyists are courting every politician they can to get them installed. I'm not sure what the ratio is for our local cameras, but I think the city gets like 60% of the fine and the rest goes to the company (who lines the pockets of mayors and city officials and governors...)
There is absolutely zero evidence that shows these reduce accidents and with full knowledge that they have decreased yellow-light time, they don't have a chance to. This is and never was about safety. It's all about money. Unfortunately, fat middle aged white women still get on TV and utter the "If you don't run redlights, you don't have anything to worry about" phrase...
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