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View Full Version : Train with a Steel 5" 9mm, carry an aluminum 4" .45?



rob_s
04-13-08, 08:49
Wilson's full size 5" CQB (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_cqb.asp) is available in 9mm. Their 4" Compact CQB (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_cqb_compact.asp) is available with an aluminum frame.

Any thoughts on training/competing with the 5" steel 9mm and carrying the 4" aluminum .45? Assuming, of course, that all parts (safeties, slide stop, mag releases, sights, etc.) are identical and the only differences between the two guns is caliber, frame material and barrel length.

Redmanfms
04-13-08, 09:07
The only potential problem I can see with this is the fairly significant difference in recoil impulse, though that doesn't appear to be a problem for people who train using .22LR conversions for their weapons.

Gutshot John
04-13-08, 09:14
Is your idea to focus on a single platform for greater consistency between training/competition/carry?

If the grip/trigger pull is identical. I think that it's NOT an entirely terrible idea (actually it's a damn good one). If consistency is the key to accuracy there is a lot of wisdom in keeping your grip and trigger pull the same no matter what.

That being said if you are going to be shooting other platforms anyway I doubt the same value will be there. Recoil will also be different.

For myself I can't commit to a single platform. Despite trying a myriad of firearms and calibers, I keep coming back to the Glock in 9mm and the 1911 in .45. More and more I'm convinced that I should focus on those two. I will try and shoot other guns (I still need to try the M&P), but short of something dramatic, I'll probably stick with that.

ToddG
04-13-08, 11:28
The difference in recoil and muzzle rise is going to be significant. It will all come down to how much you practice with each.

If you practice primarily with your light .45, odds are you'll be able to shoot the heavy 9mm without any effort. But if you shoot primarily with your heavy 9mm, the light .45 is going to feel pretty whippy. Most people get lazy with their recoil control technique when shooting 9mm (I know I do) and it takes a little remediation to get back into the swing with heavier caliber guns.

From a practical standpoint it probably won't matter enough to worry about, and trigger time is trigger time. So if you really want to carry a .45 but want to compete with a 9mm, at least you're staying with a single operating system for commonality of training.

(and speaking of .22 kits, while they certainly have their place in this age of monstrously expensive ammunition they are not useful for practicing anything related to speed specifically because the recoil and flip are non-existent.)

DocGKR
04-13-08, 12:16
I've run a 5" steel 1911 for duty and a 5" lightweight 1911 off-duty, this maximizes commonality of training and accessories. The shorter barrel 1911's can certainly work, but there are always compromises because of the increased slide velocity. I won't run a 1911 format in anything but .45 ACP. If you want a 9 mm, shoot a Glock or Hi-Power.

rob_s
04-13-08, 13:20
I won't run a 1911 format in anything but .45 ACP. If you want a 9 mm, shoot a Glock or Hi-Power.

Is this based on practical reasons or just nostalgia? If the gun runs, then the gun runs, and if it's just a training/competition gun then even the occasional bobble (let's say even 10 malfunctions in 1k rounds) would hardly be anything more than a training opportunity.

I'm also a big fan of commonality. I don't get a chance to shoot enough when shooting just one platform, let alone trying to switch between a .45 1911 and a 9mm Glock.

M4Guru
04-13-08, 14:59
The commander size 1911 makes no sense to me.

I would take another inch of sight radius and increased reliability. The grip is the hard part to conceal, so if you are using the same frame why not get the benefits of a full size gun?

I'm not opposed to aluminum frames for carry guns, or even a decent 9MM 1911 for training (.45 is freakin high these days), but I like a full size gun if you're using full size frame anyhow.

rob_s
04-13-08, 15:07
I find that extra inch to be a major pain in the ass (literally) when I spend the majority of my day chained to a desk. It's not about concealment, it's about comfort. If given the choice between sitting on a lump of steel all day or not carrying, I just won't carry. My back can't take it. So, 4" barrel or no gun? I'll opt for 4".

Also, FWIW, the Compact CQB is also a shortened grip, making it that much easier to conceal.

M4Guru
04-13-08, 15:40
Any reason you don't want an aluminum frame on the compact?

Wilson offers the Protector with an alloy frame, it's fairly similar to the CQB but lighter.

rob_s
04-13-08, 17:36
Any reason you don't want an aluminum frame on the compact?

Wilson offers the Protector with an alloy frame, it's fairly similar to the CQB but lighter.

From the thread title:

Train with a Steel 5" 9mm, carry an aluminum 4" .45
The CQB Compact is available, at least according to Wilson's site, with an aluminum frame.

M4Guru
04-13-08, 17:54
Whoops, I see it on their site now.

This threw me off:


Some of the features of this handgun include:

All carbon-steel construction

rob_s
04-13-08, 17:56
Whoops, I read that backwards.

No worries, I don't think you're the only one. I posted this to an email list I belong to and got the same reply a couple of times.

lindertw
04-13-08, 18:11
...Most people get lazy with their recoil control technique when shooting 9mm (I know I do) and it takes a little remediation to get back into the swing with heavier caliber guns...

hey, that's me! It's almost as if Todd was watching me suck bad during a recent range visit :)

I have two Colt combat commanders with similar setups (one 9mm and one 45acp) and was shocked at how my technique atrophied with the 45 as I rarely take it to the range.

The felt recoil between my steel framed commanders is very noticeable, and I would think the difference between a 5" steel 9mm and 4" alum 45 would be much worse.

rob_s, can you get the alum framed compact in 9mm?

rhino
04-13-08, 19:12
Back in 2005 I decided I couldn't afford to keep shooting matches with .45ACP all the time, so I acquired a 1911A1 in 9mm. As of this afternoon, it has 17,776 rounds through it. The savings in ammo costs (9mm 115gr FMJ factory vs. .45ACP 230gr FMJ factory) is left to the reader to calculate. :D

Along the way, I started using it for classes as well. It has served admirably in that role as well.

Sure, recoil is non-existent, but if you allow your front sight to dictate the pace at which you shoot, it's not a big deal swithcing to .45ACP. I shot a match the first Sunday with my .45, and I did fine. Accuracy was as good as with shooting my 9mm if not better, and speed was a wash because you have to slow down a little to ensure "A" hits with the minor power factor 9mm in USPSA matches, whereas the .45 takes a little while longer to cycle and for the front sight to lower.

Shoot the 9mm for most of your stuff and you'll be happy with the $$$ savings. The hard part about shooting is consistent trigger control, not managing recoil, so you're going to get the practice you need anyway. If you shoot your .45 occasionlly, you'll maintain your confidence in yout ability to shoot your carry gun.

ToddG
04-13-08, 22:40
The hard part about shooting is consistent trigger control, not managing recoil, so you're going to get the practice you need anyway.

Actually, equal to trigger manipulation is recoil control. As many people make mistakes due to anticipating or over-compensating for recoil as you'll see jerking a trigger. For someone who's properly tracking his sights it shouldn't make much difference but if under stress your cadence is being dictated by feel rather than sight ...

trio
04-13-08, 22:51
hey rob....i have been reading here for long enough to know that you have waged the personal war of 1911 vs. glock for a long time...so I will only beat the dead horse for a second....i love the 1911 platform too...and finally have just thrown up the white flag and gone predominantly to the G19 as a carry platform....


knowing thats not what you want to hear...


why not get wilson to make you a 9mm carry gun? and just forego the .45 altogether?

the terminal ballistics of good, high quality 9mm personal defense ammunition is comprable to their .45 counterparts (look at the data on bonded ammo like speer gold dot 124 gr +p and 147 gr, as well as the winchester ranger 147 gr...)....compared with 230 gr JHP expansion and penetration is very similar (in fact, winchester has a great tool where you can compare them)....

since you want to use the 1911, why not just go all 9mm 1911s? the ammo is cheaper, that way you would be training with similar trigger pull, recoil, everything....

just a thought...i know they would do it...gun store near me had a bobtailed wilson 9mm commander for a while in....wasnt lightweight...but just an idea the owner had that might sell, and it did....

either way, good luck!

John_Wayne777
04-14-08, 11:58
Is this based on practical reasons or just nostalgia?

If I remember correctly, there have been a few attempts at 1911s in 9mm, but I don't believe any of them were especially reliable or successful.

I believe DocGKR's advice is based on the general rule that 5" 1911's in .45 ACP tend to be the most reliable 1911 configuration available.

DocGKR
04-14-08, 16:02
"I find that extra inch to be a major pain in the ass (literally) when I spend the majority of my day chained to a desk. It's not about concealment, it's about comfort. If given the choice between sitting on a lump of steel all day or not carrying, I just won't carry. My back can't take it. So, 4" barrel or no gun? I'll opt for 4"."

Sounds like a real good situation to carry a G19...

rob_s
04-14-08, 16:12
Sounds like a real good situation to carry a G19...

Other than the length of the slide, I find it easier to conceal the slimmer 5" 1911 than a Glock 26. I'm 6' tall and 175 lbs, and the thicker Glocks stick out like a goiter.

Aubrey
04-14-08, 21:15
Rob,
What holster(s) are you using?

rhino
04-14-08, 21:32
Another option would be to get a 1911 in .38 Super or 9x23mm for carry. You could either have a matched 9mm, or just have a 9mm barrel fit to the other gun for when you want to shoot less expensive ammo.

While it can be challenge to get some 1911s in 9mm to function all the time, the extra length of the super and the 9x23 make them inherently more reliable.

ra2bach
04-15-08, 12:11
If you intend to carry a 4" pistol, why not practice with one? it would seem the reduced sight radius and increased recoil from a shorter barrel (in the 9MM) would more closely approximate the carry .45.

and I'd have both guns in aluminum frame if I could, you would get the benefit of being able to use your 9MM as a primary (or even back-up) gun if for whatever reason, you should desire, no?...

bullitt5172
04-17-08, 15:31
Most of you are over-thinking this whole issue. I'll bet most of you train with a fullsize weapon and carry the compact version. That will make about as much difference in recoil etc as switching between calibers. 9mm 1911's still have decent recoil, not as much as an aluminum .45 obviously, but they are not "non-existant" as some would say. We are not comparing a .22 to a 500 S&W.

Trigger time is just that, shooting and training with the same platform is the best you can do if you don't want to carry the same caliber you train with. If you train with a 9mm, carry a 45 and have issues with the caliber change you need to shoot/train more.

I say your on the right track. Though I see no issue with carrying a 9mm for SD, if your looking at the .45 for carry your going to benefit with the 9mm training gun as you can shoot more for the same amount of money. Shooting 10k of 9mm is much better than shooting 5k of .45acp if you have a budget.

trio
04-17-08, 21:28
just FYI Guns and Ammo Warehouse in Manassas, VA has a Wilson CQB Commander Model I believe w/ the Officer's frame in 9mm....

ra2bach
04-18-08, 11:27
Most of you are over-thinking this whole issue. I'll bet most of you train with a fullsize weapon and carry the compact version. That will make about as much difference in recoil etc as switching between calibers. 9mm 1911's still have decent recoil, not as much as an aluminum .45 obviously, but they are not "non-existant" as some would say. We are not comparing a .22 to a 500 S&W.

Trigger time is just that, shooting and training with the same platform is the best you can do if you don't want to carry the same caliber you train with. If you train with a 9mm, carry a 45 and have issues with the caliber change you need to shoot/train more.

I say your on the right track. Though I see no issue with carrying a 9mm for SD, if your looking at the .45 for carry your going to benefit with the 9mm training gun as you can shoot more for the same amount of money. Shooting 10k of 9mm is much better than shooting 5k of .45acp if you have a budget.

this may be a bit of heresy, but you bring up a good point - and that is, how much of what we do in "training" is going to correlate to how what we do when and if the balloon goes up?

I have always thought that because of the adrenaline, fear, shock, or what have you, that the difference between the two situations would be about as different as reading a manual about driving a car and suddenly being strapped behind the wheel of a top-fuel dragster as it launches off the line.

I know there are the "train with what you carry" folks, but personally I don't believe anyone is going to be calm enough to discern the difference in recoil, or gun weight, or even, and this is where my heresy begins, the action type (SA, SA/DA, DAO) for it to be any kind of critical issue.

in fact, we constantly see cases where people have trained in one type of shooting technique, but when they have to draw their gun and defend themselves, we see the "techniques" go straight out the window with people reverting to the crouched down, hunched over posture, with the gun held directly out in front, thrust as far away from the body as possible. instead of the nicely controlled pairs and then assessment, then a failure-to-stop shot if needed, we see these horrified people frantically row the trigger till the slide locks.

this is your fear and survival instincts taking over and they are about as able to be simulated in training as being able to bowl a perfect game by watching pro bowlers on TV.

that being said, I don't believe it matters at all what caliber, or gun weight, or even action type you use. I believe the simplest ( and safest) type of gun you can carry in whatever caliber you personally are comfortable with, is the best gun to have in your holster for that worst case scenario.

there, I said it....

ToddG
04-18-08, 12:17
Kinda sorta but not completely.

Under stress, most people tend to shoot at a cadence set by feel rather than sight. As such, if your "cadence" has been trained to be faster than you can get good hits with your carry gun, there's a chance your accuracy will suffer even more than normal under stress. This won't much matter at close ranges but we can't choose the range of a fight.

I definitely disagree about the trigger action thing, though. A lot of it will depend on what you're used to compared to what you're shooting at the moment of truth, but there are certainly combinations which won't work well. The most obvious is someone used to shooting, say, a Glock and then drawing a 1911 under stress. Would you disagree that there's a higher likelihood of fumbling or forgetting the thumb safety?

You don't need life-or-death stress to demonstrate this. Put a little stress on people during a battlefield pickup drill and you'll see it.

I remember years ago being at a match shooting a Beretta I'd just converted from DAO to DA/SA. No problems on the first couple of stages but then we had a "bump" stage ... you were in a fairly small waist-high box and an RO was standing next to and just behind you, bumping into you as you shot. Under that (relatively minor) stress, my finger was waiting for the trigger to move all the way forward before I could fire another round ... which it wasn't going to do, because it stopped at the SA reset point. I tapped, racked, my finger went back to where I expected the trigger to be ... still no good ... tap, rack ... still no good ... lock, rip, work, tap, rack ... still no good ... stare at the gun ... see the safety lever on the slide, remember "oh yeah it's DA/SA" ... get laughed at for weeks by friends ... ;)

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that someone carrying a .45 Commander is going to die in a hail of bullets because he normally practices with a 5" 9mm. But the farther away your carry gear gets from your training, the harder things will be when under stress you default to that training.

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
04-18-08, 21:20
Rob,

The title of your thread is train 9mm and carry 45? does this mean you will predominantly more proficient with the less recoil, longer sight radius 9mm then the actual do the deed gun? If so then you know my thoughts on consistency there...

However, like Todd said earlier using both systems for race and carry is fine... as long as you are equally proficient and consistent with both systems or more so with the carry...since your life does depend on it...lol

I know why (from our course) why you are contemplating this and I know you want comfort because of the carry and recoil issues... however I think you might want to weigh the balance between comfort and practicality for your situation. I think one of the biggest issues with shooters is that they confuse "easy" or "comfortable" with effectiveness, I catch myself doing it all the time just have to think what is most practical. and in this situation I would suggest get both guns, just don't let one get more comfortable then the other...

Hope all is well (hows BAD doing?)

ra2bach
04-19-08, 14:18
Kinda sorta but not completely.

Under stress, most people tend to shoot at a cadence set by feel rather than sight. As such, if your "cadence" has been trained to be faster than you can get good hits with your carry gun, there's a chance your accuracy will suffer even more than normal under stress. This won't much matter at close ranges but we can't choose the range of a fight.

I definitely disagree about the trigger action thing, though. A lot of it will depend on what you're used to compared to what you're shooting at the moment of truth, but there are certainly combinations which won't work well. The most obvious is someone used to shooting, say, a Glock and then drawing a 1911 under stress. Would you disagree that there's a higher likelihood of fumbling or forgetting the thumb safety?

You don't need life-or-death stress to demonstrate this. Put a little stress on people during a battlefield pickup drill and you'll see it.

I remember years ago being at a match shooting a Beretta I'd just converted from DAO to DA/SA. No problems on the first couple of stages but then we had a "bump" stage ... you were in a fairly small waist-high box and an RO was standing next to and just behind you, bumping into you as you shot. Under that (relatively minor) stress, my finger was waiting for the trigger to move all the way forward before I could fire another round ... which it wasn't going to do, because it stopped at the SA reset point. I tapped, racked, my finger went back to where I expected the trigger to be ... still no good ... tap, rack ... still no good ... lock, rip, work, tap, rack ... still no good ... stare at the gun ... see the safety lever on the slide, remember "oh yeah it's DA/SA" ... get laughed at for weeks by friends ... ;)

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that someone carrying a .45 Commander is going to die in a hail of bullets because he normally practices with a 5" 9mm. But the farther away your carry gear gets from your training, the harder things will be when under stress you default to that training.

bump stage? haha, that was funny. but I'm not going to laugh - I definitely know my place in the food chain :rolleyes:

but I was bringing up another point and I thinks my comments were actually heading in the same direction you took . I've seen it a lot with the seemingly little stress brought on by competition, where even a "master" with 30,000 rnds. per year under his belt, when faced with an unfamiliar stage, has brought out his 1911 and squeezed down hard to no effect, then stared at his gun and sheepishly released the safety and then got in the game. right then and there, I said to myself, "self, if this master can crunch a safety in the heat of the moment, then you, being a yokel, can surely do the same" and I pledged henceforth, not to carry a 1911 style CCW.

I've seen several shooters do this, of all levels of experience and it, more than anything, has influenced me that I don't want any kind of manual safety or additional step between me and bang - the simplest and safest is, IMO, the best way to go, and that means, to me a DA/SA or DAO.

I know there are all the guys that are going to say it's just a matter of training but I don't think you can train a pure load of adrenaline dumped into your bloodstream.

fer instance, I'm OK around snakes. if I see them first and I have time to identify and get rational about them I'm fine and can handle them and not get emotional about it. but if I'm walking along and one suddenly appears near my feet, I'm worse than a 12 year old girl. (except I'm much bigger and much uglier...)

same scenario with gunfighting, IMO, and that is also why I tend to agree with those that classify handguns into "defensive" and "offensive".

I've already said what I want in a defensive gun but for an offensive handgun - one that I would pick up and carry into a known situation like a house entry, etc. - I would probably take with a single action with manual safety (1911 style) as that is what I shoot best. knowing that I am expecting to use it in the next few moments, it would be in my hand and I would already have a rational plan at the front of my consciousness. sometimes when we're surprised, all the preparation in the world gets forgotten in the excitement.

Robb Jensen
04-19-08, 14:43
I've seen it a lot with the seemingly little stress brought on by competition, where even a "master" with 30,000 rnds. per year under his belt, when faced with an unfamiliar stage, has brought out his 1911 and squeezed down hard to no effect, then stared at his gun and sheepishly released the safety and then got in the game.

I've seen this too which is why I 'dry practice' as well as 'dry fire' and also practice live fire.

I see a lot of people who are incredible shooters who don't practice out of the holster at all.

ToddG
04-19-08, 16:05
ra2bach -- No argument from me! I've seen exactly what you're talking about with the 1911 safety, most often when a competitor or student isn't drawing from a holster. For example, it's common in the games for people to have to get their pistols from a closed drawer. Since most people don't practice coming out of a drawer, the incidence of mistakes goes up. My wife (who has about the same level of firearms training and regular practice as your typical disinterested LEO) used to do this all the time with her BHP.

To be fair to the 1911 carriers, I think this problem can almost be completely eliminated with a proper grip that has the thumb wresting on the safety lever at all times (except at the moment you're snicking the safety to the ON position). Then, safety on or off, when you press the gun out and your thumb moves into its normal position the safety will almost certainly disengage. But a surprising number of people don't ride the safety when it's in the ON position.

Robb Jensen
04-19-08, 16:35
Hope all is well (hows BAD doing?)

Travis I've looked over the stages for the Area 8 Mulit-gun match coming up soon for which I'm already training. I don't think your BAD you're eventually sending me will help me much. On a few of the stages with rifles I can find a happy spot with which to reload the rifle on the move.
http://www.uspsa8.org/A8-MGC.htm



ra2bach -- No argument from me! I've seen exactly what you're talking about with the 1911 safety, most often when a competitor or student isn't drawing from a holster. For example, it's common in the games for people to have to get their pistols from a closed drawer. Since most people don't practice coming out of a drawer, the incidence of mistakes goes up. My wife (who has about the same level of firearms training and regular practice as your typical disinterested LEO) used to do this all the time with her BHP.



Practicing picking pistols up off of the table is good too. Here's my old boss Phil Strader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEDWdYF631w

And here's the US Army Team member Max Michel Jr. Both Max and Phil are some of the best shooters I've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09DiHO5qA4&feature=related