View Full Version : What’s With My Grouping Here
Wasn’t sure which section to put this in, so I chose “AR General Discussion” since my AR is the one that I wasn’t so accurate with.
The other day I took my old Remington 1903-A3 to the range and shot it for the first time in over 25 years. (Used 60 year old military ball ammo) I haven’t shot it in so long cause I remember recoil being punishing, and I have neck problems that heavy recoil will hurt sometimes. Hence, I rarely shoot a shotgun, and no more than 5 shells when I do. I was pleased that the recoil of the 30-06 wasn’t nearly as bad as I remember. Why did I wait so long to shoot it. I had the target at 50 yards. Iron sights. I took the first shot standing up, and the next 5 shots off the bench. You can see the grouping near the bottom of the target. I think it may be sighted in at 200 yards, but I’ve never had a group like that with iron sights before. Ever. I’m very pleased with it.
Then, for the heck of it, I got my Colt 6920 out and put 5 rounds on the same target from the bench. They are the other 5 smaller holes in the target scattered all over the place. The 6920 is completely stock, iron sights, and I have about 1400 rounds thru it. I’ve never had good groupings with it, tho I can easily set off a small jar of Tannerite at 50 yards, but never on the first shot. I was careful to not jerk the trigger. Why would I get such a good group out of a gun I have not shot for so long due to recoil, and suck so bad from a gun I shoot a fair amount, of course, not as much as I did before all this panic buying.
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/151392258/original.jpg
Nice grouping with the 03. As far as the Colt, what ammo are you using in it and was it sighted in with the same ammo you shot the group with. Answering those questions could lead to the issue. Also check your rear sight and make sure it hasn't come loose over time.
Other than that I'm not sure, you have proved you can shoot better than what was produced with the colt. Maybe try a different ammo and see what happens.
Best of Luck.
QuietShootr
07-18-13, 16:47
Wasn’t sure which section to put this in, so I chose “AR General Discussion” since my AR is the one that I wasn’t so accurate with.
The other day I took my old Remington 1903-A3 to the range and shot it for the first time in over 25 years. (Used 60 year old military ball ammo) I haven’t shot it in so long cause I remember recoil being punishing, and I have neck problems that heavy recoil will hurt sometimes. Hence, I rarely shoot a shotgun, and no more than 5 shells when I do. I was pleased that the recoil of the 30-06 wasn’t nearly as bad as I remember. Why did I wait so long to shoot it. I had the target at 50 yards. Iron sights. I took the first shot standing up, and the next 5 shots off the bench. You can see the grouping near the bottom of the target. I think it may be sighted in at 200 yards, but I’ve never had a group like that with iron sights before. Ever. I’m very pleased with it.
Then, for the heck of it, I got my Colt 6920 out and put 5 rounds on the same target from the bench. They are the other 5 smaller holes in the target scattered all over the place. The 6920 is completely stock, iron sights, and I have about 1400 rounds thru it. I’ve never had good groupings with it, tho I can easily set off a small jar of Tannerite at 50 yards, but never on the first shot. I was careful to not jerk the trigger. Why would I get such a good group out of a gun I have not shot for so long due to recoil, and suck so bad from a gun I shoot a fair amount, of course, not as much as I did before all this panic buying.
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/151392258/original.jpg
Because the 6920 has like a 10" sight radius, and an 03 has about three feet. Plus you're using an O3A3 with a nice, tiny aperture sight, and I bet you were using the large aperture on your CAR's irons.
Nice grouping with the 03. As far as the Colt, what ammo are you using in it and was it sighted in with the same ammo you shot the group with. Answering those questions could lead to the issue. Also check your rear sight and make sure it hasn't come loose over time.
Other than that I'm not sure, you have proved you can shoot better than what was produced with the colt. Maybe try a different ammo and see what happens.
I was using PMC 55 grain FMJ. I don’t remember what I used to sight the Colt in with. I’ve never had a group with the Colt like I did with the 30-06. I just looked, and I can pivot the rear sight on the Colt in one direction, but it takes some force to move it. I could probably do a quick video to show it if it would paint a better picture of what I’m trying to describe about pivoting the sight.
Because the 6920 has like a 10" sight radius, and an 03 has about three feet. Plus you're using an O3A3 with a nice, tiny aperture sight, and I bet you were using the large aperture on your CAR's irons.
True, the sight radius on the 03 is much longer and the very thin front post on the 03 is really a lot nicer than on the Colt. Yes, I am using the larger aperture on the rear sight of the Colt. I’ve always read that the smaller aperture is for long distance, tho I’ve always wondered why one couldn’t use it at any distance. Seems like it would be more accurate.
RearwardAssist
07-18-13, 17:20
I was using PMC 55 grain FMJ. I don’t remember what I used to sight the Colt in with. I’ve never had a group with the Colt like I did with the 30-06. I just looked, and I can pivot the rear sight on the Colt in one direction, but it takes some force to move it. I could probably do a quick video to show it if it would paint a better picture of what I’m trying to describe about pivoting the sight.
True, the sight radius on the 03 is much longer and the very thin front post on the 03 is really a lot nicer than on the Colt. Yes, I am using the larger aperture on the rear sight of the Colt. I’ve always read that the smaller aperture is for long distance, tho I’ve always wondered why one couldn’t use it at any distance. Seems like it would be more accurate.
The ammo used to zero would not make a difference for grouping as long as you hold the same point of aim for the group. I would change ammo and sight then see how you do.
ColtSeavers
07-18-13, 17:38
I was taught in basic that the large aperture is only to ever be used (and we actually did use it) while wearing a pro mask (gas mask).
Switch to the smaller aperture IMO.
As to how true the larger aperture only being for use while wearing a pro mask is, I have no clue, as I was not dumb enough do anything other than to yell "YES DRILL SERGEANT!"
Failure2Stop
07-18-13, 17:39
1- The 1903-A3 is zeroed for "nothing", judging by the drop at 50 yards. Highly recommend zeroing it at appropriate distance.
2- Hard to say why your colt is shooting so poorly (looks like about a 6 to 8 inch extreme spread at 50 yards, 12-16 MOA). I have had ammo that was terrible out of my 6920, but it was most likely a bad lot. I am inclined to attribute the performance to shooter flinch, but criticizing someone's marksmanship over the internet without offering helpful corrective action kinda sucks.
Might want to scrub out your barrel, get some precision oriented ammunition, and go at it again.
Oh, and use the small aperture. The large is harder to find the exact center for consistent POA, not that it is impossible to use effectively, but it takes a lot of getting used to.
QuietShootr
07-18-13, 17:47
1- The 1903-A3 is zeroed for "nothing", judging by the drop at 50 yards. Highly recommend zeroing it at appropriate distance.
2- Hard to say why your colt is shooting so poorly (looks like about a 6 to 8 inch extreme spread at 50 yards, 12-16 MOA). I have had ammo that was terrible out of my 6920, but it was most likely a bad lot. I am inclined to attribute the performance to shooter flinch, but criticizing someone's marksmanship over the internet without offering helpful corrective action kinda sucks.
Might want to scrub out your barrel, get some precision oriented ammunition, and go at it again.
Oh, and use the small aperture. The large is harder to find the exact center for consistent POA, not that it is impossible to use effectively, but it takes a lot of getting used to.
I bet if he switches to the small aperture it will tighten right up. I'm pretty sure I couldn't shoot a group with M4 irons/large aperture like I could with my 03A3, as long as we're talking slow fire, take all the time you need.
Failure2Stop
07-18-13, 17:53
I bet if he switches to the small aperture it will tighten right up. I'm pretty sure I couldn't shoot a group with M4 irons/large aperture like I could with my 03A3, as long as we're talking slow fire, take all the time you need.
I'm sure it will indeed help.
I missed the "using the large aperture" bit until I had already posted.
Inconsistent pressure on the non-free float forearm. My guess is you're a r/h shooter. Putting pressure on the rifle while resting the forearm on a sandbag will push the barrel up and right, causing the group to string down & left
It's also possible the sights and/or the barrel nut is loose
I agree that it is most likely due to using the large aperture. The next time you go shooting try using both apertures for comparison.
Inconsistent pressure on the non-free float forearm. My guess is you're a r/h shooter. Putting pressure on the rifle while resting the forearm on a sandbag will push the barrel up and right, causing the group to string down & left
What he said. Ammo is not the issue here, nor is it the aperture.
Failure2Stop
07-18-13, 21:06
Inconsistent pressure on the non-free float forearm. My guess is you're a r/h shooter. Putting pressure on the rifle while resting the forearm on a sandbag will push the barrel up and right, causing the group to string down & left
It's also possible the sights and/or the barrel nut is loose
It would take a hell of a lot of pressure to get that kind of shift at 50 yards.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Good call on the aperture QuietShooter.
The only time it is useful is at night (and I haven't used it to shoot at night since I was issued an A2)
DiabhailGadhar
07-18-13, 21:45
The larger diameter sight, as far as I was told, was for night shooting with irons. And I'd bet dollars to donuts it's a combo of sight, shooter error. Also what's the dimensions on the target?
.
I'd think you'd have something obviously wrong to shoot that bad at that range.
Like MistWolf said, barrel or sights loose? Whatever, something apears to be loose?
FWIW, a 6920 I bought last year had an extremely loose Buffer Tube, like not even finger tight. Maybe your 6920 was put together the same day?
But maybe it's just me....
.
Switch to the small aperture. If that doesn't work then I would check the barrel. The obvious question is have you ever been able to get it to shoot a decent group?
My guess would be a combination of using the large aperture, inconsistent fundementals (not as likely as your grouping with the 03 shows different) and a hardware issue. None of it can be confirmed without observing in person.
It would take a hell of a lot of pressure to get that kind of shift at 50 yards.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Agreed, tow strap tight(and jacket) on a 20 g profile barrel will deflect 3-5"(low left) at 100, one would need much more on the 6920 to do this at 50.
This was the first time shooting the Colt after a field strip and good cleaning. Nothing appears to be loose on the gun, and no, I have never been able to consistently get good groups at 50 yards with it.
Yes, right hand shooter, left hand not on gun at all.
The red center of the target is 2-inches. The outer circle is 6-inches.
After reading most of the replies yesterday, I grabbed everything and headed for the range. I set up exactly as I did before. This time I used M193. I took 5 shots thru the large aperture. I wouldn’t call them a group, but the spread was smaller than the target I posted at the beginning of this thread. I then put up a fresh target, switched to the small aperture and took 5 more shots. Nothing on the paper at all. So I took 5 more shots. Nothing on the paper at all. I have no idea where those bullets went. I then switched back to the large aperture and took 5 more shots and got the group and one flyer in the photo below, which for me, I consider pretty good with iron sights at 50 yards.
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/151405501/original.jpg
I always figured it was me, and not the gun, but now I’m beginning to wonder.
You need to find somebody who knows 100 percent how to shoot and you need to set the sights back to mechanical zero and then retry it. Out of curiosity what kind of ammo are we talking about and do you know 100 percent the ammo isn't jacked up?
Ditto IG above, but something I noticed when I switched from mausers to AR's, is anticipating the recoil. You're used to a big boom, and get a little crack, but flinch anyway.
Which aperture did you use when you zeroed your sight's?
You need to find somebody who knows 100 percent how to shoot and you need to set the sights back to mechanical zero and then retry it. Out of curiosity what kind of ammo are we talking about and do you know 100 percent the ammo isn't jacked up?
The ammo I used with the first target was PMC 55 Gr. FMJ and the second target was Federal M193. I don’t reload, and have never shot any reloads, and don’t plan to. All my ammo is all factory new ammo.
I’m no expert when it comes to shooting. No formal training. Learned from my father starting at the age of 5. It’s a hobby, but when I have trouble hitting a target, it takes some of the enjoyment out of it. The other day was the first time shooting the 30-06 in over 25 years. In all that time, the heaviest recoiling rifle I’ve shot has been my AK. I probably have more rounds thru my AR than the 30-06 and AK combined.
I video taped the 30-06 and 6920 shots the other day, and with the Colt, I did not get the mag seated in, so there was nothing in the chamber for the first round, and I did flinch. Had I not had the camera on, I would say I did Not Flinch. Do I flinch all the time with the Colt? No. It seems to be hit or miss when inserting a mag on a closed bolt as to whether it will seat or not, and I’ve got in the habit of whacking the mag with my hand, but it still does not seat sometimes, so I have flinching and no flinching on camera. Sometimes when I feel myself flinch, or thinking I might be, I will close my eyes and do some dry firing to get a feel for when the trigger is going to break, and when I go back to live firing after doing the dry firing, my groups will improve.
Which aperture did you use when you zeroed your sight's?
Large aperture. Never tried the small aperture till yesterday.
Tzintzuntzan
07-19-13, 12:46
Something does seem to be a little funky because I've had groups that size at 100 with a lightweight DD barrel. That's using irons with the rear sitting crooked on the upper too, small aperture since it was daytime. Looks like your rifle isn't inherently inaccurate though a little on the larger grouping side. Is there anyone you know who could locally check your rifle for accuracy issues?
Failure2Stop
07-19-13, 12:52
Start your zeroing at 25 yards if you don't have a bore-sight to get you on paper.
If you want to shoot small groups, you seriously need to be using the small aperture, or preferably a decent optic.
This was the first time shooting the Colt after a field strip and good cleaning. Nothing appears to be loose on the gun, and no, I have never been able to consistently get good groups at 50 yards with it...
Other than having cleaned it, what did you do different this time? When shooting from a bench, how are you resting the rifle?
It's possible the barrel nut isn't torqued to full value which will allow the barrel assembly to shift around in the upper receiver. Unless it's really loose, you probably won't be able to see it unless you remove the gas tube and re-torque it.
Unless your cheekweld is inconsistent, you should not be getting groups like your first photo simply from using a larger aperture. I shot larger apertures all the time because my eyes aren't as young as they used to be
gesundheit
07-19-13, 13:24
Wouldn't the complete missing of the target with smaller aperture point to eyesight issues? OP do you wear reading glasses?
FChen17213
07-19-13, 14:21
I would first move the target to 25 yards. Use the small aperture. Fire 10 rounds very slowly concentrating on the fundamentals of marksmanship. 5 rounds often don't tell the whole story. If you have just 2 fliers, a 5-round group is worthless. A 10 round group will truly let you know what's going on much better. I would certainly hope that at 25 yds, the rounds are at least on paper. From there you want to adjust windage and elevation. If you're not confident in the whole process, adjust one at a time. Make the adjustments big, and if you overadjust, just dial it back on the next group.
Next you have to decide what zero you want. 50, 100, 200yd, etc. For a 50 yd zero, your rounds should be impacting roughly an inch low at 25 yd. For a 100 yd zero, they should be roughly 2" low at 25 yd. After your rounds are impacting where you want at 25 yd, move the target out to the actual distance you want it zeroed. If you want, you can move to 50 yds first, and then 100 yds. Then fire 10 more rounds slowly. It should be approximately on, but chances are that you'll have to fine tune at the distance you actually zero at. I would fire 10 rounds per string. While some say that you're wasting ammo, I would completely disagree. For every shot you fire, you should be practicing and honing your fundamentals. That's never a waste of ammo. Just my opinion. Your rifle is only zeroed at the distance that you actually zeroed it at. You can't say you have a 200 yd zero if you zeroed it at 50 yds and say that it "should be close at 200 yd." Not true. You'll have to shoot at 200 to fine tune and confirm.
Large aperture. Never tried the small aperture till yesterday.
When going from one to the other aperture it usually causes a small windage adjustment. (Look at the sight as it spins on the screw when you flip it). Having zeroed with the large and then going to the small aperture could account for the misses. Use a larger target to see where the rounds are going. My guess is that you will find them grouping to the right. Although, the windage adjustment shouldn't be that noticeable at 50 yards.
ColtSeavers
07-19-13, 15:32
I would just like to agree with and reiterate everything Iraq, Failure2 and dash1 have posted since your last attempted sighting in.
Start your zeroing at 25 yards if you don't have a bore-sight to get you on paper.
If you want to shoot small groups, you seriously need to be using the small aperture, or preferably a decent optic.
I originally zeroed the rifle in at 25 yards then moved it out to 50 yards where I keep the zero. Since I did so good with the 30-06 I hadn’t shot in over 25 years, I was just a little perplexed as to why I did so poor with the Colt.
Is it me or the gun? Right now, I wonder. I bought the gun brand new and everything on the rifle seems tight.
I just put the gun in a vice and sighted in on a steel target in my back yard. Distance was only 33 feet, as that is the farthest I can get in the back yard from my shop. I sighted it in on the target with the large aperture, then flipped to the smaller aperture. I did it several times to make sure the sight point in the larger aperture did not change. What I saw was the smaller aperture was 1 ½ inch lower than the larger aperture. At 50 yards, that drop has to be a lot. Probably just under 7 inches if I did my math right. Windage did not change.
Why such a dramatic change?
To clarify, you live fired at 33 feet, and the POI was 1 1/2 inches lower when using the small aperture? The way you worded your post it sounds as if you didn't live fire, only looked through the sights.
The way you worded your post it sounds as if you didn't live fire, only looked through the sights.
Can’t do any live firing in the city limits, but the point of aim did change from the large aperture to the small aperture.
I'd wait to see what happens when you live fire.
...for the heck of it, I got my Colt 6920 out and put 5 rounds on the same target from the bench...
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/151392258/original.jpg
Again I ask, how did you rest the carbine? If it has a non-free float barrel, it can shift the point of impact according to how much pressure was placed on the forearm- and where that pressure was placed.
With all due respect, the method used to fire this group could have had great affect, even at 50 yards. Look at the pattern. The shots string diagonally almost in a straight line. If it were simply due to the larger aperture, the group would be rounder, unless you have really poor technique. What belies that theory the nice round group you shot from the '06. The other possibility is the recoil from the bigger rifle induced a nasty flinch.
From the evidence, my guess there was varying pressure- down and sideways- placed on the carbine at each shot causing the shots to string. Or varying pressure and canting. Bad ammo does not string horizontally. It either shoots a larger roundish group or it strings vertically due to differences in velocity. Try shooting the carbine again without placing any pressure on the forearm and see how it groups then
This thread is actually getting to be ridiculous. Until you actually reset the mechanical zero and use the small aperture and go out and shoot you're just pissing in the wind without any results.
I would also find an experienced shooter to go with you to help diagnose the issue and rule out any other issues.
Ditto IG above, but something I noticed when I switched from mausers to AR's, is anticipating the recoil. You're used to a big boom, and get a little crack, but flinch anyway.
I used to have a flinch with heavier rifles (first gun was a Mosin, and I started out shooting them in addition to Mausers and Lee-Enfields). That flinch went away. However, my first few times shooting a 5.56 carbine it kinda came back. It was weird. But I can vouch for this happening. Also the wood guns and ARs recoil completely differently.
Inconsistent pressure on the non-free float forearm. My guess is you're a r/h shooter. Putting pressure on the rifle while resting the forearm on a sandbag will push the barrel up and right, causing the group to string down & left
I am not following what you are saying here; are you saying that pressure on the barrel when rested, pushing the barrel up and to the right, will cause POI shift down and to the left?
Or are you saying that a group shot with pressure on non-freefloat forearm will result in shots impacting high and to the right of POA?
Actually, I was thinking of how moving the front sight changes point of impact. Move the front sight to the right and point of impact will move left. Move the front sight up and it will move the point of impact down
If you mechanically adjust front sight, yes, because you will adjust your line of sight accordingly, thus altering the angle of the bore axis in relation to the LOS. If the bore axis is altered, but the LOS stays the same, you will have POI shift to the same direction the bore axis is altered.
Flexing the barrel up raises the front sight. The barrel, due to leverage, will flex closer to the receiver. Now, the shooter will have to angle the rifle downward to realign the rear sight with the front. As the barrel remains fairly straight at the muzzle and the bullet departs inline with the bore, this will result in the shots striking low.
If the shooter were using an optic mounted close to the eye, flexing the barrel upward would send the shots high because the optic only aligns with the target on one plane, not two as is the case with iron sights
Maybe it's me, but I cannot get that to make any sense.
Flexing the barrel will alter the bore axis, yes? If the barrel shifts at the receiver, it needs to shift at the muzzle as well. If it has any effect on the front sight it must affect the muzzle and bore axis as well.
The LOS change cannot be as radical as you are claiming. Also, an upwards adjustment of the front sight, and increased angle of the bore axis, and a downward tilt of the weapon to align sights should cancel each other out, no?
Maybe it's me, but I cannot get that to make any sense.
Flexing the barrel will alter the bore axis, yes? If the barrel shifts at the receiver, it needs to shift at the muzzle as well. If it has any effect on the front sight it must affect the muzzle and bore axis as well.
The LOS change cannot be as radical as you are claiming. Also, an upwards adjustment of the front sight, and a downward tilt of the weapon to align sights should cancel each other out, no?
No. The flexing is contained between the weight of the shooter and the rest. There may be some flex at the upper, but it is minimal in relationship to the rear sight. Most of the flexing of the barrel will be between the chamber and the rest. Ahead of the rest will remain straight. Even so, the bend would be a parabola, not a straight curve and the barrel will be straight at the muzzle. Also, the bullet will depart at an angle inline with the bore at the muzzle.
The shooter aligns his sights with the target, then leans their weight on the rifle. This bends the barrel, deflecting the barrel upward. Left in this position, the bullet will fly high. However, when looking through the rear sight, the shooter sees the front sight is high and angles the muzzle downward to bring the sights back on target. This angles the bore downward, causing the bullet to fly low. It has the same affect as either a) raising the front sight, or b) lowering the rear sight to drop the point of impact.
Take a piece of PVC pipe and fix it with something to act as sights at either end and line it up without flexing the tube and look at the angle at the "muzzle". Then without changing your position, bend the pipe with the curve pointing towards the floor and again align the sights with your eye on the same target. You will see with it bent so, the "muzzle" end of your pipe is angled downward in compared to when it was straight
Again I ask, how did you rest the carbine? If it has a non-free float barrel, it can shift the point of impact according to how much pressure was placed on the forearm- and where that pressure was placed.
This has really been addressed in at least 3 posts. But, since you missed them, my left arm was resting Under the gun. Gun resting on sand bags.
This thread is actually getting to be ridiculous.
I would tend to agree. I’d like to be able to come back to this thread later once I’ve had time to digest the info and get back to the range, but in the meantime, it’s kind of gone off subject.
Until you actually reset the mechanical zero and use the small aperture and go out and shoot you're just pissing in the wind without any results.
I would also find an experienced shooter to go with you to help diagnose the issue and rule out any other issues.
I’m kind of rationing ammo right now as I imagine many of us are forced to do due to the panic buying and lack of ammo available. I live hours from any decent size town or city where instruction is available, and that comes down to ammo and cost. I’m certainly not new to shooting, and my 30-06 group in my original post says I must be able to shoot, but in all honesty, I’ve never been that accurate with my AR. Some days yes, some days no.
I’ll get back to the range when I can and start all over at 25 yards with the small aperture then move back out to 50 yards, and post back with the results.
Heavy Metal
07-21-13, 00:36
When going from one to the other aperture it usually causes a small windage adjustment. (Look at the sight as it spins on the screw when you flip it). Having zeroed with the large and then going to the small aperture could account for the misses. Use a larger target to see where the rounds are going. My guess is that you will find them grouping to the right. Although, the windage adjustment shouldn't be that noticeable at 50 yards.
The other peep is offset slightly to compensate for this.
What is is likely doing is moving his POA ABOVE the target as the large is a 200M and the small apeture is a 300M zero.
I have to make a correction on my assertions on the shift of the point of impact caused by the pressure on the barrel when the rifle is placed on a rest. Arctic1 was indeed correct for questioning my claims. For further clarification please see this thread- https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1702309&posted=1#post1702309
I'm blaming it on dyslexia!
Packing a 45
07-22-13, 16:24
Did not see where the OP. said it was a NIB buy or new out of box buy. If not NIB could it be shot out. The AR is new too me. Packing
Got to the range today, but it was too stinking hot to do any sighting in. Tried to get up there early, but it was already over 100 degrees and zero shade and very humid. In town, it’s 61 degrees with a cool breeze blowing off the ocean. In the hills, it’s just downright unbearable. When I was younger, I lived for that hot weather. Can’t tolerate it anymore. I’ll have to go back in the early evening hours when it’s cooler to sight it in with the smaller aperture.
So, with the excuse out of the way, here is what I did. I made a crude target out of a larger piece of paper and drew circles with a coffee can and a lid from a juice bottle, and crudely colored the inner circle in. These were clearly visible from 50 yards. Aiming at the top circle with the large aperture, I took 5 shots. These are marked with red dots. Then I flipped to the small aperture, aimed at the top circle, and never hit the paper. I then aimed at the lower circle, and hit the upper circle. These shots are marked with blue dots. These are 1.7-inch spread at 50 yards with iron sights and old eyes. I won’t complain about that. (The green dots are the actual holes with a piece of green paper behind the target so they would stand out). If the red and blue dots are difficult to see and you are a Windows PC, you can click on Ctrl + to zoom in and Ctrl - to zoom back out.
Heavy Metal seemed to have it right with his post
What is is likely doing is moving his POA ABOVE the target as the large is a 200M and the small apeture is a 300M zero.
The larger aperture seems easier for me to use as I’m used to it with about 1400 rounds thru the gun which I bought brand new. I guess what I’m failing to understand is why the point of impact changes from one aperture to the other.
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/151463438/original.jpg
Heavy Metal
07-22-13, 20:39
POA should have read POI.
Hand the rifle to someone who has an M4 and is producing 1-1.5" groups at 50 yards. If they spray rounds all over the place with yours, then you know what the problem is. Otherwise, internet diagnosis is super difficult. Usually internet diagnosis evolves into "You either have a cold, or brain cancer." and I feel like that's what's happening here.
You do realize that there are free targets on the net that you can download and print, right?
I would get one and then I would start with 25M death. Then if you establish a zero push it out further.
You can probably accomplish this within 30 rounds or so. Shoot min. 5 round groups.
Got to the range today, but it was too stinking hot to do any sighting in. Tried to get up there early, but it was already over 100 degrees and zero shade and very humid. In town, it’s 61 degrees with a cool breeze blowing off the ocean. In the hills, it’s just downright unbearable. When I was younger, I lived for that hot weather. Can’t tolerate it anymore. I’ll have to go back in the early evening hours when it’s cooler to sight it in with the smaller aperture.
So, with the excuse out of the way, here is what I did. I made a crude target out of a larger piece of paper and drew circles with a coffee can and a lid from a juice bottle, and crudely colored the inner circle in. These were clearly visible from 50 yards. Aiming at the top circle with the large aperture, I took 5 shots. These are marked with red dots. Then I flipped to the small aperture, aimed at the top circle, and never hit the paper. I then aimed at the lower circle, and hit the upper circle. These shots are marked with blue dots. These are 1.7-inch spread at 50 yards with iron sights and old eyes. I won’t complain about that. (The green dots are the actual holes with a piece of green paper behind the target so they would stand out). If the red and blue dots are difficult to see and you are a Windows PC, you can click on Ctrl + to zoom in and Ctrl - to zoom back out.
Heavy Metal seemed to have it right with his post
The larger aperture seems easier for me to use as I’m used to it with about 1400 rounds thru the gun which I bought brand new. I guess what I’m failing to understand is why the point of impact changes from one aperture to the other.
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/151463438/original.jpg
Failure2Stop
07-23-13, 07:04
The larger aperture seems easier for me to use as I’m used to it with about 1400 rounds thru the gun which I bought brand new.
No problem with using the large aperture if you want, but it is pretty apparent that you are not getting the most out of your platform with that sighting solution.
Really, 1400 rounds of watching the sight through the rear 0-2 is not a significant reason to disregard the small aperture. It's like saying that you can't watch football because you watched UFC the night before. The same concepts of sight alignment apply, it's simply easier to precisely place the front sight in the center of the small aperture due to the ability to perceive smaller degrees of mis-alignment.
I guess what I’m failing to understand is why the point of impact changes from one aperture to the other.
Funny, I thought someone answered that way back.
Many rear sights have different sight planes for the different apertures. They are generally made to give a rough 200 meter zero with the large aperture when the small aperture is zeroed at 300 yards on a 20” gun.
ETA: get some decent targets.
Plenty of them available for download.
You want a target that encourages consistency in front sight placement on the target.
2 ways to approach that:
1) smallest target that you can identify at distance while focusing on the front sight.
2) target that exactly matches the width of the front sight at distance while focusing on the front sight.
As for the targets. I just wanted one large target to see where the rounds with the smaller aperture were going, and tho crude, it served it’s purpose very well. It told me I was shooting 10-inches lower with the larger aperture than with the small aperture. Without that crudely drawn target, It would have been a lot harder to figure out where those rounds with the small aperture were going.
All the targets I normally use are printed off the internet. The one I posted at the beginning of this thread is the one I use the most for iron sights. I can just barely see that red bull at 50 yards. I also have some smaller targets of a different design for my one rifle with a scope. Also have some M16A2 25M zeroing targets I printed when I first got the Colt.
When I have some time and cooler weather, I’ll pull the target into 25 yards and use the smaller aperture and move it back out to 50 yards after zeroing at 25, which is what I did when I got the gun and found out that they come from the factory zeroed at 300 yards. This country is hilly and brushy, and it’s hard to find a place to get more than 50 yards. Part of my problem is most likely due to flinching. I video tape a fair amount of my shooting, and I’m sometimes amazed at what I thought I did and what I did. The stock trigger on the 6920 isn’t the greatest, and I’m rarely surprised when the gun goes off. I am going to put a scope on it sometime in the near future, and I’ll bet once I do that, I’ll probably start thinking about replacing the trigger.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.