View Full Version : Talk me out of an AK74. Multi-purpose Carbine. SGL 31-94
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/image_zps13a00060.jpg
So, after seeing the recent prices on 5.45x39 showing up at a few local gun shops ($170 for a 1080 spam can) I'm thinking of switching to the dark side for a while. Hear me out.
I'm a shooter, I like to shoot and shoot a lot. Generally within 100yd/meter range. If I had ammo for my AR at this price I'd be out once a week if not twice. I'm lucky to make it out once a month with the AR15. Ammo being the way it is (.50/rd).
Now, if I'm making the switch to 5.45x39 I may as well change to a platform that is proven and runs well on it. An AK74, more specifically an Arsenal SGL 31-94. I also see some benefits to this platform:
1) Foldable stock will allow me to transport it more discreetly. A very big plus in my book.
2) It will gun on a wide verity of ammo. Mil spec ammo is cheap. I like cheap! I can shoot this 3-4 times as much as my AR.
3) Piston design and ak reliability.
4) Smooth shooter, relatively accurate, and light.
5) I can still mount an aimpoint H1 and surefire light on an ultimak rail.
I know ergonomics aren't as great as the AR15 ( that's something I can work around). And I know quality mags cost more. I'm focused on being able to shoot and I can always buy another AR in the future.
What say you?
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/image_zps494d203f.jpg
I got caught low on 556...luckily I was stocked on 545, and its the only reason I get to shoot now. My M-4s aren't going anywhere, but they are gathering some dust for the time being.
I keep buying spams cans of 545 as long as Wideners has them in stock. I say go for it, everyone should have a couple AKs.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/c3006/H18%20Cerakote/DSCN4384.jpg
Been there, done it. 5.45 AR is all ive been shooting until 5.56 is user friendly again.
1) Pull pins and transport, or SBR it.
2) Same benefits here
3) With extra power hammer spring and new gen mags, my 5.45 AR is 100% reliable.
4) Not near as smooth as AR due to non-linear design, accuracy is relative but its better to be a brother than a cousin if you get my drift.
Weight will be similar.
5) True, but unless your Dave_M with some serious time behind it, its difficult to become used to it compared to the adoption of the AR platform. Obviously this is user specific, but if your used to killing the MNQ or the Defoor standards and then try it with your AK...its humbling. YMMV
I had the creme de la creme in my mind of the shootable AK, the 105 and a Krebs Tantal. I logged some time on them, really trying to get close to what I can do with an AR (which isnt much) and I wasnt close in the accuracy dept under time. Im just a beginner so dont let this carry much weight, just saw the post and thought id chime in.
I'm not looking to make an AK74 into an AR15. I know the AK74's have limits. It will stay stock for the most part. Minus a light and maybe an optic.
Buying 5.56 right now is breaking me.
I had a WASR underfolder for a while, I wasn't impressed by the 7.62x39, but have been fond of the one arsenal AK74 I was able to handle with some trigger time behind it.
How much money are you talking about for said rifle?
How much money are you talking about for said rifle?
The arsenal sgl 31-94 retails for $1299.
Used for less. Package deals for even less.
I think I may throw out a line and see what I can find.
fine idea. i love mine. :)
and don't change anything until you change the sights.
magpul has announced AK mags (unfortunately i won't be able to get any). 7.62R for now, but it's not too far from there to 5.45.
couple alternative considerations:
--go AR 5.45 upper. modify M2 window mags for cheap, reliability.
----i just got one of the spike's uppers last week.
--go M&P15-22 and shoot for 5cts a shot. and only spend $500 on the gun.
--go dedicated .22 upper for around same price.
Buy it.
:D
You might fall in love with the elegant simplicity of the AK design. I did.
Buy it.
He said to talk him out of it. I'll give it a try. AK74 magazines are expensive. Barrels are hard to replace. Prices are high relative to what they once were. You'll be using up ammo that I need.:nono:
How'd I do?
BTW, I have a Micro mounted in a RS Regulate siderail, that is exactly right on height and very repeatable...the owner is a member here, but I can't think of his screen name.
You could find a good beater/shooter for $750 if your patient, or convert a Saiga. American barrels are hit and miss in 545, better to stay with mil-spec, wether its a kit build or factory rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
07-19-13, 20:25
I'm drowning in 5.45 mags as picked all mine up back when Ohio Rapid Fire had new unissued mags for under $5 a pop. Recently I came across these and picked up my share.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ak530daeapom.html
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ak5430blpoma1.html
They appear to be a "commerical" mag as they have markings in English on them, something that is not found on OEM Warsaw mags.
K-VAR/Arsenal mags are $45 a pop right now and will more than likely only go up.
Damn, I didn't realize 5.45 was so cheap. The 15-22 is a great route, but everyone knows what .22 availability is like right now. Not trying to derail too much, but how much would a 5.45 AR upper run?
So cheap its hard to ignore.
I already have an M&P 15-22. But yea, .22 is more rare than .223/5.56 even still.
Damn, I didn't realize 5.45 was so cheap. The 15-22 is a great route, but everyone knows what .22 availability is like right now. Not trying to derail too much, but how much would a 5.45 AR upper run?
I love my Waffen Werks AK-74, to talk you out of it would be pointless as my experience with the rifle has been great and you cannot beat the cost of ammo compared to 5.56. I don't think that you will regret the decision. Magazine prices are high and there is always discussion of the 5.45 ammo no longer being imported, but domestic production would almost certainly occur and I think that quality domestic magazines will be along shortly.
I'm drowning in 5.45 mags as picked all mine up back when Ohio Rapid Fire had new unissued mags for under $5 a pop. Recently I came across these and picked up my share.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ak530daeapom.html
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ak5430blpoma1.html
They appear to be a "commerical" mag as they have markings in English on them, something that is not found on OEM Warsaw mags.
K-VAR/Arsenal mags are $45 a pop right now and will more than likely only go up.
i have some of those cdnn's. def commercial when compared to known milspec. all polymer, etc.
they are, however, just like the milspec form factor, so they're decent range mags.
when magpul's hit the market, the prices will adjust downward as sales dry up. it'll take awhile as the first magpuls will be all-polymer. they are developing a steel reinforced "pro" version for release later.
SpeedRacer
07-20-13, 08:16
The real question is how much of that cheap ammo do you have to shoot to offset the cost of a $1300 rifle, plus expensive mags and other trimmings (light, optic, etc). Unless you shoot a LOT, spending $1800+ to save ~$100/case on ammo over .223 doesn't make a lot of sense if saving money is the primary goal. It used to make a lot more sense when the rifles were $600, mags were <$10 and 7N6 was $85 a tin. Now, not so much.
If it ain't all about the money and you just plain want a 74, go for it. The SGL is a great rifle, although overpriced IMO.
A good alternative to get into the 74 game is a Polish Tantal. They can still be found new for around $500. Nowhere near as sexy as the Arsenal rifles but they get the job done. I owned both and honestly couldn't tell the difference between the two in terms of function and accuracy. I do prefer the folding poly stock over the wire stock, but not at an $800 premium.
Damn, I didn't realize 5.45 was so cheap. The 15-22 is a great route, but everyone knows what .22 availability is like right now. Not trying to derail too much, but how much would a 5.45 AR upper run?
$650 complete.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XSTU4260MLS&name=Spikes+Tactical+16%22+Mid-Length+5.45x39+Upper+Receiver&groupid=586
but you have to be patient - they're only made in small batches for AIM. i waited months and happened to get in on the last batch. i think they sold out in 20mins...
The real question is how much of that cheap ammo do you have to shoot to offset the cost of a $1300 rifle, plus expensive mags and other trimmings (light, optic, etc). Unless you shoot a LOT, spending $1800+ to save ~$100/case on ammo over .223 doesn't make a lot of sense if saving money is the primary goal. It used to make a lot more sense when the rifles were $600, mags were <$10 and 7N6 was $85 a tin. Now, not so much.
If it ain't all about the money and you just plain want a 74, go for it. The SGL is a great rifle, although overpriced IMO.
A good alternative to get into the 74 game is a Polish Tantal. They can still be found new for around $500. Nowhere near as sexy as the Arsenal rifles but they get the job done. I owned both and honestly couldn't tell the difference between the two in terms of function and accuracy. I do prefer the folding poly stock over the wire stock, but not at an $800 premium.
you have a short memory, sir. it wasn't too long ago that .223 simply wasn't available for any affordable price. and that situation will recur.
however, i was able to affordably source 5.45 all through The Panic. when .223 was going for >$1/rd - and still hard to find - i could find 5.45 for pre-panic .223-prices all day long.
it only took a couple of trips to the range to cost-justify my saiga. nowadays (and hopefully for a long time), it will take longer.
if i read it right, cost-per-round savings is only his motivation, but not his prime factor. if that were the case, he'd just get a cmmg conversion kit and call it a day.
the man wants an AK and shooting it for half or less than the cost of .223 is the justification. he will more than get his money back over the lifetime of the weapon even if he buys an "overpriced" arsenal.
and all of us are willing to spend over a grand on a good qual AR, so why not the same on a good qual AK?
there is no inherent real-world quality difference between say, a colt and an arsenal. AK's are/were cheap(er) because they are made by cheap foreign labor, just like toyotas.
but if you buy a krebs or rifle dynamics AK, get ready to spend the same coin as a DD or noveske. why? all are made by quality-obsessed American manufacturers.
in any case, diversity in platform and caliber are never a bad thing. it's just cross-training applied to firearms.
hotrodder636
07-20-13, 09:06
Tagged to follow...
SpeedRacer
07-20-13, 09:30
The .223 shortages are temporary and don't affect those who prepare ahead of time. Instead of dropping that money on a rifle and trimmings to use during a panic, why not just stack 8-10 cases of .223 in the closet for the same purposes? We've been through them enough times now that panic markets simply shouldn't catch us off guard or affect us anymore. That aside, when I got into 5.45 it was a no brainer. Rifles, mags and ammo was dirt cheap compared to the AR world. Unfortunately that price gap is quickly closing.
As for having a diverse collection, that was the point of my second statement. While I don't think it's worth it from a budget perspective, I totally agree there's nothing wrong with having a few AKs in the safe. I know I do, and the 74s are my favorites among my AKs.
I feel the Arsenal is overpriced for what it is. It has nothing to do with comparing it to the AR platform. My first SGL (fixed stock) was under $600 brand new. A month later the price went up 50% as has continued to go up since. In my mind there's no justification for it. You can't really apply AR logic to the AK platform. Colt/BCM/DD/etc weapons are superior in every regard to cheaper brands. However functionally/practically speaking, the difference just isn't there when it comes to AKs. I have cheap ones, and I have nice ones. Beyond cosmetics and fit/finish, the difference between them is negligable. Not to say there isn't bad AKs out there that are below my bottom line, but I'd trust my life to my $500 Tantal just as confidently as my Arsenal.
hotrodder636
07-20-13, 09:36
The .223 shortages are temporary and don't affect those who prepare ahead of time. Instead of dropping that money on a rifle and trimmings to use during a panic, why not just stack 8-10 cases of .223 in the closet for the same purposes? We've been through them enough times now that panic markets simply shouldn't catch us off guard or affect us anymore. That aside, when I got into 5.45 it was a no brainer. Rifles, mags and ammo was dirt cheap compared to the AR world. Unfortunately that price gap is quickly closing.
As for having a diverse collection, that was the point of my second statement. While I don't think it's worth it from a budget perspective, I totally agree there's nothing wrong with having a few AKs in the safe. I know I do, and the 74s are my favorites among my AKs.
I feel the Arsenal is overpriced for what it is. It has nothing to do with comparing it to the AR platform. My first SGL (fixed stock) was under $600 brand new. A month later the price went up 50% as has continued to go up since. In my mind there's no justification for it. You can't really apply AR logic to the AK platform. Colt/BCM/DD/etc weapons are superior in every regard to cheaper brands. However functionally/practically speaking, the difference just isn't there when it comes to AKs. I have cheap ones, and I have nice ones. Beyond cosmetics and fit/finish, the difference between them is negligable. Not to say there isn't bad AKs out there that are below my bottom line, but I'd trust my life to my $500 Tantal just as confidently as my Arsenal.
Thank you for that insight. I have noticed AK prices move to the atmosphere and was wondering if they are worth the current asking prices.
Anyone else care to comment on prove vs reward for an AK?
Thank you for that insight. I have noticed AK prices move to the atmosphere and was wondering if they are worth the current asking prices.
Anyone else care to comment on prove vs reward for an AK?
ok well a CIA tantal is a hobby gun. I believe all have us made barrels that will wear a lot faster an wont be as nearly as accurate. the arsenals are military grade guns with proper CHF chromed lined barrels, no canted sight blocks properly riveted, etc...
I believe in quality over quantity. I like to own at least one military grade rifle for all major military calibers. with that being said I own 1AK74 from rifle dynamics and a ak47 from arsenal.
I do like the fact the you can find 545 corrosive surplus ammo for under 200 dollars for 1000 rnds. Just becareful and make sure you clean that ak74 really good when using corrosive ammo, windex is your friend.
I love my 5.45 AK (SLR-105R)... the ammo is relatively affordable (it would be more so if I were willing to shoot corrosive ammo, but I'm too lazy to clean everything out properly), the recoil is next to nothing, and the ballistics are fairly similar to 5.56.
I also have a SLR-106F (5.56) with the same AK-100 series folding stock as shown in the OP's picture... the folding stock is nice for discreet transport and storage, but you're stuck with that one length when it's deployed.
For me, that length is a little too long when running slick (I like to run my AR stocks one click from completely closed), and way too long wearing armor. My 105 has an Vltor stock adapter on there that suits me much better. Just something to think about.
there is no inherent real-world quality difference between say, a colt and an arsenal. AK's are/were cheap
You have to be kidding me. I've owned four Arsenal rifles. The first is a SLR-95MB. It was entirely made in Bulgaria and the quality is great. The second was a SLR-106CR. It was a totally unreliable POS with cheap paint on it. The third was a SLR-106UR. It was also totally unreliable with the same cheap paint on it. Arsenal refunded me most of my money for both of these rifles because they never could get them to run reliably. The fourth is a SLR-107UR. It came with a pin improperly installed at an angle which cracked the bottom of the front sight gas block. Arsenal replaced the FS/GB, but it still has the same cheap paint as the previous two. I have a pretty decent AK collection and I can tell you that Arsenal might be a step above your average Romanian AK. Other than that, the other AK's pretty much have them beat easily when it comes to quality. There's no way to justify the higher Arsenal prices based on quality. Arsenal does offer configurations that are not available elsewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htuNCPZaXKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpkb_8fYYLY
BTW: I'm no "operator", but please don't try to blame the rifles' problems on my shooting technique. All of my other AK's run 100% using my same skill set. Bottom line, there's no way that an Arsenal rifle comes close to a Colt when it comes to quality or bet your life on it performance.
(er) because they are made by cheap foreign labor, just like toyotas.
While cheap foreign labor certainly helps reduce the production costs of AK's, I've got to say that your analogy is about 30 years old. Most Toyotas sold in the US are now made in the US precisely because it's less expensive, including labor, to make them here.
The cost of the rifle is irrelevant. My 5.56 BCM is close in cost of this Arsenal. If I happen to find a reputable manufacture ak for cheaper..... Even better. The price of an optic and light doesn't matter either. I already have these.
Now ammo. Last case of decent mil-spec ammo was $499.99 for a 1k case. Last commercial spec ammo I bought was $400, a deal I jumped on no questions asked(PMC bronze). Find it cheaper, IN STOCK. Better yet find it for less than .60/rd locally. Impossible.
I can walk down to a pawn shop right now and pick up a 1080 count spam can of 5.45x39 for $172.48 out the door. So mil-spec for mil spec 499.99-172.48=327.51. I could buy another case and have a hell of a good start on another. That's basically 3,340 rds vs 1,000rds. That's a hell of alot more shooting.
The real question is how much of that cheap ammo do you have to shoot to offset the cost of a $1300 rifle, plus expensive mags and other trimmings (light, optic, etc). Unless you shoot a LOT, spending $1800+ to save ~$100/case on ammo over .223 doesn't make a lot of sense if saving money is the primary goal. It used to make a lot more sense when the rifles were $600, mags were <$10 and 7N6 was $85 a tin. Now, not so much.
If it ain't all about the money and you just plain want a 74, go for it. The SGL is a great rifle, although overpriced IMO.
How temporary? We've been saying this since Jan/Feb its July and the prices of rifles have decreased, but ammo is still a bitch. What good is a rifle like my AR if I can't afford to train and shoot the thing? The AK-74 is a temporary stop gap.
I'll admit I was caught with my pants down. Now here maybe in a couple years when 5.56 is cheap again I'll bite and buy up all I can. Buy another BCM or Colt and go on my merry way.
The .223 shortages are temporary and don't affect those who prepare ahead of time. Instead of dropping that money on a rifle and trimmings to use during a panic, why not just stack 8-10 cases of .223 in the closet for the same purposes? We've been through them enough times now that panic markets simply shouldn't catch us off guard or affect us anymore.
This AK74 has to be a side folder and offer a solid stock. It's the rifle I shot and the reason I even considered looking into an ak-74 for an alternative carbine. It's felt better than any other AK, better yet a stock and cheek weld I could live with.
SpeedRacer
07-20-13, 10:25
I hear ya man. .223/5.56 is still far from prices I'd consider buying at, and if you did indeed get caught with your pants down it's not a bad way to go. I was speaking more to the theory in general, over the last couple years I've just seen several guys jump into the 5.45 market late and realize the cost savings isn't what they thought it would be.
My honest opinion would be to go with a fixed stock model as it opens up a LOT more options. I have several folders that are cool and all, but to be honest I don't think I've ever actually found a reason to fold the stock on them. It's kind of a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist and just not worth the huge premium you pay. If I did it all over again I'd buy fixed stock AKs, and if I felt like spending more money I'd probably go the AR stock conversion route instead now that there are solid options for that.
Moose-Knuckle
07-20-13, 11:11
i have some of those cdnn's. def commercial when compared to known milspec. all polymer, etc.
they are, however, just like the milspec form factor, so they're decent range mags.
when magpul's hit the market, the prices will adjust downward as sales dry up. it'll take awhile as the first magpuls will be all-polymer. they are developing a steel reinforced "pro" version for release later.
Yeap, I bought these from CDNN as range/training only. Magpul has said they have no plans for 5.45 mags at this time. Not saying that they never will but it might be long wait if ever.
The real question is how much of that cheap ammo do you have to shoot to offset the cost of a $1300 rifle, plus expensive mags and other trimmings (light, optic, etc). Unless you shoot a LOT, spending $1800+ to save ~$100/case on ammo over .223 doesn't make a lot of sense if saving money is the primary goal. It used to make a lot more sense when the rifles were $600, mags were <$10 and 7N6 was $85 a tin. Now, not so much.
If it ain't all about the money and you just plain want a 74, go for it. The SGL is a great rifle, although overpriced IMO.
A good alternative to get into the 74 game is a Polish Tantal. They can still be found new for around $500. Nowhere near as sexy as the Arsenal rifles but they get the job done. I owned both and honestly couldn't tell the difference between the two in terms of function and accuracy. I do prefer the folding poly stock over the wire stock, but not at an $800 premium.
Now days for a OEM Kalashnikov with a CHF barrel especially with a folder that is not a "bad" price. They are only going to be going up from here. I purchased my SLR-105 for $450 and a Bulgarian kit built AKS-74 for $650 back in '05-'06.
You have to be kidding me. I've owned four Arsenal rifles. The first is a SLR-95MB. It was entirely made in Bulgaria and the quality is great. The second was a SLR-106CR. It was a totally unreliable POS with cheap paint on it. The third was a SLR-106UR. It was also totally unreliable with the same cheap paint on it. Arsenal refunded me most of my money for both of these rifles because they never could get them to run reliably. The fourth is a SLR-107UR. It came with a pin improperly installed at an angle which cracked the bottom of the front sight gas block. Arsenal replaced the FS/GB, but it still has the same cheap paint as the previous two. I have a pretty decent AK collection and I can tell you that Arsenal might be a step above your average Romanian AK. Other than that, the other AK's pretty much have them beat easily when it comes to quality. There's no way to justify the higher Arsenal prices based on quality. Arsenal does offer configurations that are not available elsewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htuNCPZaXKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpkb_8fYYLY
BTW: I'm no "operator", but please don't try to blame the rifles' problems on my shooting technique. All of my other AK's run 100% using my same skill set. Bottom line, there's no way that an Arsenal rifle comes close to a Colt when it comes to quality or bet your life on it performance.
While cheap foreign labor certainly helps reduce the production costs of AK's, I've got to say that your analogy is about 30 years old. Most Toyotas sold in the US are now made in the US precisely because it's less expensive, including labor, to make them here.
wheeeee! knew this was coming, but didn't feel like writing a term paper...
the point of the "toyota" ref is not timeliness or currency, but foreign labor. pick your preferred country and their cheap exports so you'll feel better.
colt pattern AR's are now like samurai swords - they have become as much art as utility. and that's damn cool (i certainly dig mine).
but, colt patterns have all that "quality" built in because they NEED it.
the gold standard for "goes bang when trigger is pulled" is still the AK, and aside from you, arsenal's are highly regarded by a great many of other owners, myself included.
could we have paid (a lot) less some years ago? yep.
Are there better alternatives or just-as-good-as deals out there now or in the near future? yep.
careful shopping and a little patience will get the OP where he wants to be.
That's another thing an arsenal would have over a century, etc. CHF chrome lined barrel.
Now days for a OEM Kalashnikov with a CHF barrel especially with a folder that is not a "bad" price. They are only going to be going up from here. I purchased my SLR-105 for $450 and a Bulgarian kit built AKS-74 for $650 back in '05-'06.
I really want the folder stock to make it practical to carry in the truck. However I won't pass up on a hell of a deal on a fixed stock arsenal.
and aside from you, arsenal's are highly regarded by a great many of other owners, myself included.
I'm glad that you've had a better experience than me. For sure if everyone had my same experience, they'd be out of business. Still, my experience isn't uncommon. I'd caution anyone considering buying an Arsenal to do research on theakforum.net. There's a ton of knowledge there. The quality of the base rifles as imported from the factories is generally OK. However, those doing the conversions here are no better than the monkeys that Century uses. Canted sights are very common. They appear to have no QC. If you have a problem, I can tell you from personal experience that it's a painful ordeal dealing with them. They won't tell you what they've done to repair the rifles and you can forget about speaking with someone in a position of authority. You'd be much better off buying a plain Saiga and having it converted by a true professional AK 'smith.
SpeedRacer
07-20-13, 12:09
What Bret said is spot on, and goes back to why I think they are overpriced. If they were 30-40% lower in price, the potential issues would be worth dealing with. I've had good luck and am happy with my Arsenals, but then again I didn't pay $1300 for them. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard/read "Man I expected more for $______" from new Arsenal owners, I'd have enough money to buy a new Arsenal. :D
The SGL finish is terrible (arguably cosmetic but if you bought a BCM and the anodizing flaked off after 100rds you'd be pissed), and the Arsenal two stage trigger is horrendous. Those are guarantees, then there's the other hit-or-miss issues.
Ok folks. What should I go with?
I want a chrome lined barrel. Hammer forged is best. I shoot alot.
Quality is best. No mag wobble. No canted front sight. Smooth action.
A side folder is preferred. I can convert a 4.5mm pin metal folder to a solid stock like I want. Kvar has them.
I will take a solid stock if I have to. But I would a good solid stock with a decent cheek weld. NATO stock?
Ok folks. What should I go with?
I want a chrome lined barrel. Hammer forged is best. I shoot alot.
Quality is best. No mag wobble. No canted front sight. Smooth action.
A side folder is preferred. I can convert a 4.5mm pin metal folder to a solid stock like I want. Kvar has them.
I will take a solid stock if I have to. But I would a good solid stock with a decent cheek weld. NATO stock?
You can't convert the folder to a normal stock without replacing the rear trunnion, and even then you'd be left with the extra holes on the receiver. If you want a fixed stock, but that. It'd be cheaper anyway (normal SGL-31). To make sure you're happy with the sights, as many can have a slight cant, try to inspect the rifle before you purchase it. There are slight variations, and depending on your expectations and eye, you might see a small flaw in some. If you want the folder but don't like the skeleton metal stock, you can swap it with a polymer version. Just remember though, the SGL folders have the 5.5 mm stock pin, not the 4.5 mm like the SLR Bulgarian series.
Why should we talk you out of it?
Jump in head first and don't look back!
You can't convert the folder to a normal stock without replacing the rear trunnion, and even then you'd be left with the extra holes on the receiver. If you want a fixed stock, but that. It'd be cheaper anyway (normal SGL-31). To make sure you're happy with the sights, as many can have a slight cant, try to inspect the rifle before you purchase it. There are slight variations, and depending on your expectations and eye, you might see a small flaw in some. If you want the folder but don't like the skeleton metal stock, you can swap it with a polymer version. Just remember though, the SGL folders have the 5.5 mm stock pin, not the 4.5 mm like the SLR Bulgarian series.
I don't want to convert a metal folder to a fixed stock.
I was saying if I ended up with a metal triangle side folder, kvar makes a stock like the one on the slg31-95 that will go on the smaller 4.5mm pin setup. I'm aware the slg31-95's use a larger 5.5mm pin.
I do know two things. I DO NOT want an underfolder and DO not want an ACE side folder stock. I'd take a regular fixed stock or vltor stock adapter over those.
Why should we talk you out of it?
Jump in head first and don't look back!
Haha. I really think I am. I was just making sure I wasn't doing something completely bone headed.
I'll come back to AR's when money comes back and when the prices on ammo and stuff calms down. Until then its time to hunt for an AK74 and buy up all the 5.45x39 I can get my hands on and horde it.
I don't want to convert a metal folder to a fixed stock.
I was saying if I ended up with a metal triangle side folder, kvar makes a stock like the one on the slg31-95 that will go on the smaller 4.5mm pin setup. I'm aware the slg31-95's use a larger 5.5mm pin.
I do know two things. I DO NOT want an underfolder and DO not want an ACE side folder stock. I'd take a regular fixed stock or vltor stock adapter over those.
Ah, ok. Apologies that I didn't understand that. Anyway, you might be interested in this unit. You'd be the first to get one that I've heard of, but it might be cool if you want more stock options.
http://www.srvv.org/en/catalog/1317/30626/
Not sure how it would lock when folded, but it might be something that you could rig up. LAV took some pics while in Russian recently and some of their guys were using these. Hope that helps.
SpeedRacer
07-20-13, 17:19
Ok folks. What should I go with?
I want a chrome lined barrel. Hammer forged is best. I shoot alot.
Quality is best. No mag wobble. No canted front sight. Smooth action.
A side folder is preferred. I can convert a 4.5mm pin metal folder to a solid stock like I want. Kvar has them.
I will take a solid stock if I have to. But I would a good solid stock with a decent cheek weld. NATO stock?
I would say a kit built by a reputable builder, but last I checked kits were unobtanium or overpriced. I honestly couldn't tell ya what else to buy, it's been a while since I was in the buying market and have actually been selling off AKs recently to fund AR builds and ammo.
I do have an RJF (before the stupid TV show when they were doing great work) Bulgarian build I've thought about selling that is exactly what you're looking for. Honestly the nicest 74 I own, and leaps and bounds above an SGL. Not actively trying to sell it but I'd like it to go to a loving, properly abusive home. :D
Shoot me a PM if you're interested.
http://thecurt.com/rj_3.jpg
Built with an unissued Bulgarian kit, virgin Bulgarian barrel, KVAR furniture, Nodak receiver, Gunkoted flat black, and smooth as hell action.
Hmmm. Sending PM
I would say a kit built by a reputable builder, but last I checked kits were unobtanium or overpriced. I honestly couldn't tell ya what else to buy, it's been a while since I was in the buying market and have actually been selling off AKs recently to fund AR builds and ammo.
I do have an RJF (before the stupid TV show when they were doing great work) Bulgarian build I've thought about selling that is exactly what you're looking for. Honestly the nicest 74 I own, and leaps and bounds above an SGL. Not actively trying to sell it but I'd like it to go to a loving, properly abusive home. :D
Shoot me a PM if you're interested.
http://thecurt.com/rj_3.jpg
Built with an unissued Bulgarian kit, virgin Bulgarian barrel, KVAR furniture, Nodak receiver, Gunkoted flat black, and smooth as hell action.
MountainRaven
07-20-13, 18:35
What Bret said is spot on, and goes back to why I think they are overpriced. If they were 30-40% lower in price, the potential issues would be worth dealing with. I've had good luck and am happy with my Arsenals, but then again I didn't pay $1300 for them. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard/read "Man I expected more for $______" from new Arsenal owners, I'd have enough money to buy a new Arsenal. :D
The SGL finish is terrible (arguably cosmetic but if you bought a BCM and the anodizing flaked off after 100rds you'd be pissed), and the Arsenal two stage trigger is horrendous. Those are guarantees, then there's the other hit-or-miss issues.
Because anodizing isn't just cosmetic.
I do not find the Arsenal trigger to be bad, at all. In fact, I think it's much better than the Tapco G2. (The RSA one might be the best, but I have never used it.)
I have owned a couple of Arsenals, didn't have any problems, and I have yet to actually meet anyone who has had a problem with an Arsenal rifle.
Most of the bad news I hear regarding Arsenals is on the internet and seems to come primarily from the home build crowd (who believe that anyone who doesn't build their AK in their own basement is less than a man and a fool to boot) and, to a lesser degree, the guys pushing Red Jacket, Rifle Dynamics, or Krebs (not that there is anything wrong with those three - well, two of those three at any rate - but it would be like someone telling you all the bad things that can and will happen with your Colt while trying to sell you a Ruger, H&K, or KAC (pretty much respectively)).
SpeedRacer
07-20-13, 19:47
You've never seen the SGL paint finish bubbling off? There's about a million reports of it on the web with pics. It happened to mine and I eventually had to have it refinished in Gunkote. No, it's not jist cosmetic. My point was a lot of guys pass it off as "oh it's an AK it's supposed to be ugly", but if the same happened with a comparably priced AR it would be considered a huge issue.
I'm not pushing anything, and have no agenda. I'm not a basement homebuilder. I own several AKs and have previously owned many more, including Arsenals. Just sharing my first hand experiences in an effort to help someone make an informed decision. I have zero brand loyalty and I'm not a fan of RJ at all but fact is they USED to build some damn nice AKs.
It happened to mine and I eventually had to have it refinished in Gunkote.
I have a question (not making an assumption), did you ever use anything like Gunscrubber or any other harsh cleaners on it?
I think we also need to remember it's an AK. There are AKs like Polytech which have what I think are wonderful finishes. But I also have an Egyptian Maadi with a correct factory finish which is comparable to what you might encounter on a Sten SMG.
I think people get "military rifles" and sometimes believe that means the finish is bulletproof. I haven't had a problem with any of the dozen or so Arsenal AKs I've had, but I've been pretty careful about sticking to Break Free only.
I have less than 1000 on my arsenal but I have a rattle can paint job on top of the factory finish. I haven't had any problems yet (knock on wood).
I have seen a lot of firearms with finishes that wear off both mil guns and sporting arms, no finish last forever but some do better than others.
I do have an RJF (before the stupid TV show when they were doing great work) Bulgarian build I've thought about selling that is exactly what you're looking for. Honestly the nicest 74 I own, and leaps and bounds above an SGL. Not actively trying to sell it but I'd like it to go to a loving, properly abusive home. :D
I really don't know how you figure that. An aftermarket built is not better than a factory OEM AK.
SpeedRacer
07-21-13, 21:40
I really don't know how you figure that. An aftermarket built is not better than a factory OEM AK.
I never did and never would make a blanket statement like that. There's a lot of crappy builders out there for sure. And some excellent ones, and a lot somewhere in the middle. By the same token, you're saying an aftermarket RD build isn't better than an Arsenal Saiga?
I own both and only made a direct comparison of two specific rifles. Not sure why people are getting defensive, I've said multiple times the SGL is a hell of a rifle and have recommended them to many folks. I just think the quality is not representative the price they're charging for them these days.
I never did and never would make a blanket statement like that. There's a lot of crappy builders out there for sure. And some excellent ones, and a lot somewhere in the middle. By the same token, you're saying an aftermarket RD build isn't better than an Arsenal Saiga?
I own both and only made a direct comparison of two specific rifles. Not sure why people are getting defensive, I've said multiple times the SGL is a hell of a rifle and have recommended them to many folks. I just think the quality is not representative the price they're charging for them these days.
A saiga will have a real barrel and receiver. A build will have neither. We have had this discussion before.
I never did and never would make a blanket statement like that. There's a lot of crappy builders out there for sure. And some excellent ones, and a lot somewhere in the middle. By the same token, you're saying an aftermarket RD build isn't better than an Arsenal Saiga?
I own both and only made a direct comparison of two specific rifles. Not sure why people are getting defensive, I've said multiple times the SGL is a hell of a rifle and have recommended them to many folks. I just think the quality is not representative the price they're charging for them these days.
I think Mr. Ryan is referring to the comment where you said that your rifle is "leaps and bounds" better than an SGL. It might very well be as good, in my opinion. I do agree that they are overpriced now, and that's hard to dispute. As for an RD build being better, that depends too. I'd rate a perfect Arsenal (one that was able to be carefully inspected) as being as good or better than just about anything else out there. Home building shines when trying to create a variant that's not commercially available. I like weird hybrids myself, and that's part of the reason I build my own. But if you're looking for a factory gun, it's hard to say that a gun rebuilt by anybody is going to trump a factory perfect example from Arsenal.
A saiga will have a real barrel and receiver. A build will have neither. We have had this discussion before.
Real question:
Does this just mean the barrel and reciever aren't russian made?
What are the disadvantages otherwise?
SpeedRacer
07-21-13, 22:33
I think Mr. Ryan is referring to the comment where you said that your rifle is "leaps and bounds" better than an SGL. It might very well be as good, in my opinion. I do agree that they are overpriced now, and that's hard to dispute. As for an RD build being better, that depends too. I'd rate a perfect Arsenal (one that was able to be carefully inspected) as being as good or better than just about anything else out there. Home building shines when trying to create a variant that's not commercially available. I like weird hybrids myself, and that's part of the reason I build my own. But if you're looking for a factory gun, it's hard to say that a gun rebuilt by anybody is going to trump a factory perfect example from Arsenal.
That makes much more sense. Maybe I didn't clarify enough, but I'm taking the cost into account in my comparison. Apples vs apples, same price point, I have a particular rifle that has much nicer fit and finish than the SGL. Functionally they both go bang every time, accuracy is dead even, the SGL is a tad heavier and much less refined in every area.
A couple years ago when the SGLs were selling for $700/$1000ish for fixed/folding it was a no brainer every time. Maybe it's still the best option even at $1300, but I guess I can't swallow the price increase when they have made no effort to improve finish, QC or customer service. That's all it comes down to.
SpeedRacer
07-21-13, 22:37
Real question:
Does this just mean the barrel and reciever aren't russian made?
What are the disadvantages otherwise?
I'd like to hear what a "real" barrel and receiver are as well, and why in 50+ years no one told the dozens of countries producing and utilizing the AK platform that they were/are using fake ones.
An aftermarket built is not better than a factory OEM AK.
Having demilled numerous kits and rebuilt a good number of AK's, I can tell you first hand that the quality of factory builds is all over the place (just like the quality of home builds). Based on some of what I've seen, I actually have more confidence in the design because it holds even when a factory build is not done 100% correctly. When you demill and build, you see things that you never would have noticed otherwise. Prior to building, I never noticed differences in the formation of press rivets on factory built rifles. Now I know that some factories were pretty consistent and other factories seem to have little concern for how the rivets were pressed. I'll put my rivet pressing up against plenty of factory builds.
A saiga will have a real barrel and receiver. A build will have neither. We have had this discussion before.
While most kits offered now don't come with factory original barrels, they did in the past. The vast majority of my kits have factory original barrels. As for receivers, NoDak Spud and 74ULLC receivers are every bit as good if not better than most factory receivers.
BTW, while the Arsenal rifles may have started life in a Russian or Bulgarian factory, they were not built there in the configuration they are sold in here. Lots of work is done when they are converted here. That's were most of the problems come in. Based on the poor quality that I've experienced and seen, those doing the conversions for Arsenal have no special skills when it comes to building AK's. I personally don't consider Arsenal's to be any more factory built than if I bought a Saiga and did the conversion myself.
I personally don't consider Arsenal's to be any more factory built than if I bought a Saiga and did the conversion myself.
I think both would qualify as factory in my mind as neither was ever broken down into a parts kit and refitted to a new receiver. I don't think 922r compliance makes a rifle "non factory" any more than putting Magpul stocks on a Colt rifles makes it a "non factory" rifle. It's simply isn't original configuration.
MountainRaven
07-22-13, 00:39
I'm not pushing anything, and have no agenda. I'm not a basement homebuilder. I own several AKs and have previously owned many more, including Arsenals. Just sharing my first hand experiences in an effort to help someone make an informed decision. I have zero brand loyalty and I'm not a fan of RJ at all but fact is they USED to build some damn nice AKs.
Forgive me, I did not mean to imply that you were attempting to push either homebuilds or high-end customs. It has simply been my experience that most of the people poo-pooing Arsenals fall into one of those two categories.
While most kits offered now don't come with factory original barrels, they did in the past. The vast majority of my kits have factory original barrels. As for receivers, NoDak Spud and 74ULLC receivers are every bit as good if not better than most factory receivers.
BTW, while the Arsenal rifles may have started life in a Russian or Bulgarian factory, they were not built there in the configuration they are sold in here. Lots of work is done when they are converted here. That's were most of the problems come in. Based on the poor quality that I've experienced and seen, those doing the conversions for Arsenal have no special skills when it comes to building AK's. I personally don't consider Arsenal's to be any more factory built than if I bought a Saiga and did the conversion myself.
I too like the Nodak Spuds, and I've only heard great things about the 74ULLC receivers too. Have about fourteen Nodaks as receivers and rifles that I've built in my safe. Great receivers! Better than a factory receiver? That's debatable. Converting a Saiga and rebuilding a rifle on a new receiver are two different ball games too, imho. Also, I don't disagree that Arsenal doesn't always make a perfect product. Far from it! I've read several account where things weren't right, and that their CS was reluctant to take the proper action to fix the situation. Particularly with the 106 lineup, which may be why it's being discontinued. That said, they put out a lot of great rifles that have served people very well. If you can personally inspect one of their rifles before purchase, they're going to be a pretty safe bet vs. something from most other sources. Arsenal very well may not have special skills per se, but it doesn't really take special skills to rebuild an AK. It takes a fair amount of knowledge, tools, and the ability to apply both, but it ain't rocket science. However it DOES take special skills to determine the correct part geometry (of which there may be many tiny but meaningful revisions that don't appear in the American products), metallurgy, heat treat, spot welding technique, journal tolerances, chrome lining, etc that the factory rifles, and our kits (which were made in those same factories!), have taken the guesswork out of.
Bret, you and I both pride ourselves on making as good of an AK as we possibly can. I don't doubt that your rivet work is as good as any factory, either. But there's more to it than is obvious to most, and for the average person, there's a lot less of a guarantee of a well-built and reliable AK from a non-factory source than from the other options out there. Is the BIY or kit-built-by-x-company the best approach for everybody, or even most people? Nope.
As always, just my opinion.
Moose-Knuckle
07-22-13, 03:29
I'd like to hear what a "real" barrel and receiver are as well, and why in 50+ years no one told the dozens of countries producing and utilizing the AK platform that they were/are using fake ones.
That's because they didn't have the BATFE ban OEM barrels from coming into their countries. ;)
Also there are a lot of junk US made stamped AK receivers floating around out there as well.
SpeedRacer
07-22-13, 07:26
That's because they didn't have the BATFE ban OEM barrels from coming into their countries. ;)
Also there are a lot of junk US made stamped AK receivers floating around out there as well.
I don't own a single AK with a US barrel. There's millions of AK builds floating around the US built with original barrels. It's quite an assumption to make that any non-Arsenal build has a US barrel and crappy receiver.
Having demilled numerous kits and rebuilt a good number of AK's, I can tell you first hand that the quality of factory builds is all over the place (just like the quality of home builds). Based on some of what I've seen, I actually have more confidence in the design because it holds even when a factory build is not done 100% correctly. When you demill and build, you see things that you never would have noticed otherwise. Prior to building, I never noticed differences in the formation of press rivets on factory built rifles. Now I know that some factories were pretty consistent and other factories seem to have little concern for how the rivets were pressed. I'll put my rivet pressing up against plenty of factory builds.
While most kits offered now don't come with factory original barrels, they did in the past. The vast majority of my kits have factory original barrels. As for receivers, NoDak Spud and 74ULLC receivers are every bit as good if not better than most factory receivers.
BTW, while the Arsenal rifles may have started life in a Russian or Bulgarian factory, they were not built there in the configuration they are sold in here. Lots of work is done when they are converted here. That's were most of the problems come in. Based on the poor quality that I've experienced and seen, those doing the conversions for Arsenal have no special skills when it comes to building AK's. I personally don't consider Arsenal's to be any more factory built than if I bought a Saiga and did the conversion myself.
This is gospel right here. If you need to picture SME by the name to believe it, then please do so. The Kalashnikov is a simple platform for sure....the manufacturing of it, not so much when it comes to build quality. Don't be too stubborn to learn.
I don't own a single AK with a US barrel. There's millions of AK builds floating around the US built with original barrels. It's quite an assumption to make that any non-Arsenal build has a US barrel and crappy receiver.
An AK kit in mint condition with an original barrel coupled with an NDS receiver will cost more than a factory Izhmash or Arsenal.
Mint condition AK kits have approached $700 with some krinks going for $1500
You do not save money by buildling a nice AK from a kit.
An AK kit in mint condition with an original barrel coupled with an NDS receiver will cost more than a factory Izhmash or Arsenal.
Mint condition AK kits have approached $700 with some krinks going for $1500
You do not save money by buildling a nice AK from a kit.
While some kits can be extremely expensive, your statement is generally incorrect. You can build for less, although as you assert the gap is narrowing considerably.
While some kits can be extremely expensive, your statement is generally incorrect.
No it isn't.
Do you know what I do in my spare time?
I build exact clones of real military arms that are so exact down to the finish color, date on the pins, springs, etc that mantain as much original finish and parts as possible.
I am one of the founders who started the whole retro movement 10 years ago.
Taking an unissued parts kit $700
NDS receiver $150
Gunsmith labor at a real AK gunsmith like Ted Marshall $400
Is hardly going to save you money than just buying an Arsenal for $1300.
Most AK builders refinish the entire rifle with some type of spray on finish after removal of the factory finish down to bare metal.
They also don't install the correct grip reinforcement plate that is correct to the nationality of the AK. They also don't do the rivets correctly to match the nationality of the AK.
No it isn't.
Do you know what I do in my spare time?
I build exact clones of real military arms that are so exact down to the finish color, date on the pins, springs, etc that mantain as much original finish and parts as possible.
I am one of the founders who started the whole retro movement 10 years ago.
Taking an unissued parts kit $700
NDS receiver $150
Gunsmith labor at a real AK gunsmith like Ted Marshall $400
Is hardly going to save you money than just buying an Arsenal for $1300.
Most AK builders refinish the entire rifle with some type of spray on finish after removal of the factory finish down to bare metal.
They also don't install the correct grip reinforcement plate that is correct to the nationality of the AK. They also don't do the rivets correctly to match the nationality of the AK.
Dude, if you're paying $700 for a kit you're paying $300 or more too much. NDS receivers are about $100. I build my own rifles, and have for years. You can get OEM Bulgarian barrels, right now, at K-var. As for the reinforcement plates, you can get them pre-installed on NDS receivers.
As for finishing, I park and paint right here. You can assert that it's more expensive, but you'd just be wrong. The investment in tooling and the needed equipment is substantial, but if you've already got the stuff then it's not a big deal.
SpeedRacer
07-22-13, 22:47
No it isn't.
Do you know what I do in my spare time?
I build exact clones of real military arms that are so exact down to the finish color, date on the pins, springs, etc that mantain as much original finish and parts as possible.
I am one of the founders who started the whole retro movement 10 years ago.
Taking an unissued parts kit $700
NDS receiver $150
Gunsmith labor at a real AK gunsmith like Ted Marshall $400
Is hardly going to save you money than just buying an Arsenal for $1300.
Most AK builders refinish the entire rifle with some type of spray on finish after removal of the factory finish down to bare metal.
They also don't install the correct grip reinforcement plate that is correct to the nationality of the AK. They also don't do the rivets correctly to match the nationality of the AK.
You're comparing collector grade showcase builds to an Arsenal SGL? Apples to oranges, and I don't think anyone was discussing historically correct rivets and PG reinforcement plates. None of that affects the functionality of the weapon. Both have their place and equal respect from me, but the two have little to do with each other.
You're comparing collector grade showcase builds to an Arsenal SGL? Apples to oranges, and I don't think anyone was discussing historically correct rivets and PG reinforcement plates. None of that affects the functionality of the weapon. Both have their place and equal respect from me, but the two have little to do with each other.
Precisely. Worded much better than my reply. Thank you, Sir.
Moose-Knuckle
07-23-13, 02:29
I don't own a single AK with a US barrel.
Nor do I.
There's millions of AK builds floating around the US built with original barrels. It's quite an assumption to make that any non-Arsenal build has a US barrel and crappy receiver.
Didn't ass-u-me a thing, we are talking about new production rifles in this thread, not the used/pre-ban market. Other than Arsenal, not custom manufacturers like Rifle Dynamics, Krebs, etc. who is peddling new unissued Kalashnikov variants in the US market?
You're comparing collector grade showcase builds to an Arsenal SGL? Apples to oranges, and I don't think anyone was discussing historically correct rivets and PG reinforcement plates. None of that affects the functionality of the weapon. Both have their place and equal respect from me, but the two have little to do with each other.
My comparison is fair. I am comparing factory parts and finishes to factory parts and finishes.
Dude, if you're paying $700 for a kit you're paying $300 or more too much. NDS receivers are about $100. I build my own rifles, and have for years. You can get OEM Bulgarian barrels, right now, at K-var. As for the reinforcement plates, you can get them pre-installed on NDS receivers.
As for finishing, I park and paint right here. You can assert that it's more expensive, but you'd just be wrong. The investment in tooling and the needed equipment is substantial, but if you've already got the stuff then it's not a big deal.
Please show me where mint condion kits with OEM barrels pressed into the OEM trunion are selling for $400.
I sold an unissued Bulgarian ak74 kit for $600 in 2010 on gunbroker.
My comparison is fair. I am comparing factory parts and finishes to factory parts and finishes.
Factory? An American facsimile semi-auto receiver and parts kit built by you (or any kit builder) with enough American 922r parts is now factory? And a facsimile finish is now factory too? :rolleyes:
Please show me where mint condion kits with OEM barrels pressed into the OEM trunion are selling for $400.
I've assembled lots of kits for that price by combing forums and being ready to pounce on deals. I'm talking about building working rifles, not about needing to have all the parts in one place. I can work with virgin barrels just fine, and I often do. They don't need to be part of a kit for it to turn out properly. And yes, minus the receiver and 922r parts that's all I would pay for the parts for a gun. We're talking about functionality, not making a non-machine gun copy that looks "just like" a machine gun so that you can show your buddies a rifle that "is almost like" a gun that it is NOT. Arsenal doesn't put the full auto selector markings and selector notches on their receivers, because they're not worried about making something that is pretending to be something else.
SpeedRacer
07-23-13, 09:26
Didn't ass-u-me a thing, we are talking about new production rifles in this thread, not the used/pre-ban market. Other than Arsenal, not custom manufacturers like Rifle Dynamics, Krebs, etc. who is peddling new unissued Kalashnikov variants in the US market?
Are we? The OP mentioned buying used so I was taking that into account.
If we're talking ONLY factory new production being an option, no kit or aftermarket builds, then of course I'd recommend an Arsenal depending on use. Most people will be served fine by even an Interarms, Waffenworks, etc even with their "fake" American barrels. Funny thing about AKs is 99% of the time even the shitty ones get the job done for 99% of people. If someone is a serious shooter, or using the rifle as a defensive weapon, I'd certainly recommend the Arsenal SGL, but I still think it's overpriced, and any skillfully converted Saiga accomplishes the same thing.
LOL...now I know why I post in GD.
:D
who is peddling new unissued Kalashnikov variants in the US market?
Since all of the guns including Arsenals / Saigas are undergoing the legally required changes in parts for 922r and sometimes other aspects (magwells being opened up, etc.), I would venture to say that none of them are what we would want to call completely "factory built".
Romanian Wasr's, the Zastava Yugo PAP series, the Polish Archer from Radom, and a few others come to mind that fit in this category of "factory-ish". I wish they could come in completed, but the stupid import laws being what they are....
Lastly, I apologize to M4c if my comments didn't reflect the tone or professionalism that's expected here. I read a lot more than I post, and I don't want to come off the wrong way. I'm here to learn, not argue.
-P.
MountainRaven
07-23-13, 19:54
Since all of the guns including Arsenals / Saigas are undergoing the legally required changes in parts for 922r and sometimes other aspects (magwells being opened up, etc.), I would venture to say that none of them are what we would want to call completely "factory built".
Romanian Wasr's, the Zastava Yugo PAP series, the Polish Archer from Radom, and a few others come to mind that fit in this category of "factory-ish". I wish they could come in completed, but the stupid import laws being what they are....
Lastly, I apologize to M4c if my comments didn't reflect the tone or professionalism that's expected here. I read a lot more than I post, and I don't want to come off the wrong way. I'm here to learn, not argue.
-P.
If 922r-compliance modification doesn't count, then I reckon that leaves the Arsenal and PAP AK pistols.
If 922r-compliance modification doesn't count, then I reckon that leaves the Arsenal and PAP AK pistols.
I re-read your post, and think I previously responded to something you didn't even write. Duh, sorry about that. I'm not sure how 922r applies to pistols, or if it even does at all.
OP, hopefully you don't mind the jack. I posted this in another thread but this one is getting a lot more activity.
What's the consensus on Waffen Werks AK's? I saw that their barrels are US, but at what point does the US barrel become inferior? Is an SLR worth $400+ more than a Waffen?
OP, hopefully you don't mind the jack. I posted this in another thread but this one is getting a lot more activity.
What's the consensus on Waffen Werks AK's? I saw that their barrels are US, but at what point does the US barrel become inferior? Is an SLR worth $400+ more than a Waffen?
I don't mind at all. Its all education (or entertainment :D) to me and anybody else following this thread.
Thanks again Speedracer.
The 74' as she sits now. I've had it out twice and could not be happier.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s424/Rmillerm4/image_zpsb517eb34.jpg
I hope I didn't stray to far from the traditional look. :D
700rds down range. Whomever said an AK cannot be accurate......:rolleyes:
Now I'm after an AK47 as 7.62x39 is starting to drop in my area as well.
.
SpeedRacer
08-06-13, 22:28
Piece of junk, shoulda bought an Arsenal. :D
Seriously...glad I could help. Miss it already but no reason to keep it in the safe when someone else could use it.
I don't have anything negative to say about the AK74. I say you need at least two of them.
I don't have anything negative to say about the AK74. I say you need at least two of them.
Or at least two AK's, one in 5.45x39 and the other in 7.62x39. Helps to diversify. :D
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