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Saw this on BCM's other forum. Looks sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rguk8GJJsWM
NeoNeanderthal
07-20-13, 11:43
Posted this in another thread as some people were questioning if its even in the works. Taken from haley strategic fb page
Logan W.
What's this BCM keymod handguard you speak of in your new video?
Haley Strategic Partners A product we're testing. If you take a class with us in the next month, you might see it first hand.
Logan W. Nice!
Ya, they have been working on this for awhile. I think that we will see them for sale this year, but that is the best I can tell you.
C4
Quiet Riot
07-20-13, 15:21
This looks like what the NSR could've been if Noveske wouldn't have had to retool to get KEYMOD on the 45s. I wonder how it will mount.
I, too, am interested in finding out how it mounts. This might be the perfect addition to my BCM upper:)
How do you say PWS and BCM make the Keymod rails, and some other people do as well, and fail to mention NOVESKE who were the first to use it on an AR platform? I shut it off after that.
The BCM rail looks good, but there aren't many ways to configure a Keymod so I think we will see a lot which look similar. The largest differences are going to be how wide a company goes and its attachment method.
Yep. Not knocking BCM. Would never but Noveske was the first. I have an NSR on my primary rifle and am completely satisfied. KAC's offering does have 45 degree mounting positions which may make it more interesting.
Kincel going from Vltor to BCM does make Bravo's future with the key mod interesting. Not sure of how much Eric had on the keymod development but his recent employment to Bravo is a great plus to BCM nonetheless.
-Jax
Yep. Not knocking BCM. Would never but Noveske was the first. I have an NSR on my primary rifle and am completely satisfied. KAC's offering does have 45 degree mounting positions which may make it more interesting.
Kincel going from Vltor to BCM does make Bravo's future with the key mod interesting. Not sure of how much Eric had on the keymod development but his recent employment to Bravo is a great plus to BCM nonetheless.
-Jax
Agreed, it certainly isn't a knock against BCM, or even Travis, but it seems odd to talk about Keymod and not mention Noveske.
I think Eric had a lot to do with it, he is highly creative. He is certainly a large asset for BCM.
Grand58742
07-20-13, 18:02
Interested in seeing some pics when you get the chance Stick.
NeoNeanderthal
07-20-13, 18:05
Travis has since said he was running on low/no sleep and to cut him some slack with the video. he didn't specifically mention noveske but I'm sure thats what he was referring to.
Obviously the rail is going to be skinny, and have keymods 360 around (well except the top rail of course). The question is, how skinny? How much will it weigh? and what sort of barrel nut/attachment will they use?
Oh don't forget cost. If they can sell this rail for under $200 they will clean house. They made a comp that rivals the battlecomp for 40% less $.
jerrysimons
07-20-13, 19:04
It sure is nice to see more Keymod support!
The BCM rail looked like a Knight's URX 4 to me at first, before he repeated it was a BCM. Keymod slots at the top 45* marks will be a welcome addition over the NSR, primarily for light placement.
BravoCompanyUSA
07-20-13, 19:59
Vltor (Led by Eric Kincel) was the sole developer of the KeyMod system and the associated standardized modular technology. Afterwards Eric Kincel (and Vltor) released that technology to every manufacturer in the industry for FREE. The idea was to help the industry move forward with a standard modular system. It is advancement for the warfighter. Vltor did manufacturer the very first KeyMod rail systems for a special .mil project. It was very well received. It was purchased in small quantities and still currently being tested. To my knowledge Vltor has not made that rail as a part their standard commercial offering.
John Noveske (being the smartest of the bunch) was the first commercial manufacturer to offer a KeyMod rail to the public. Many companies have joined with many more companies in development on a version.
The BCM KeyMod Rail (developed by Eric Kincel, now of BCM) is still in final phases of T&E development with a number of BCMGUNFIGHTER instructors. As such the specs and design have not been finalized. But I can say this; the BCMGUFNIGHTER KeyMod Rail will redefine tactical handguards the same way the BCMGUNFIGHTER Charging handle has redefined that market. -- pretty good tease?.... stay tuned :D
Travis has since said he was running on low/no sleep and to cut him some slack with the video. he didn't specifically mention noveske but I'm sure thats what he was referring to.
Obviously the rail is going to be skinny, and have keymods 360 around (well except the top rail of course). The question is, how skinny? How much will it weigh? and what sort of barrel nut/attachment will they use?
Oh don't forget cost. If they can sell this rail for under $200 they will clean house. They made a comp that rivals the battlecomp for 40% less $.
Yeah. If they can beat Noveske's pricing they will sell, sell , sell.
I really like the BCM comp.
But I can say this; the BCMGUFNIGHTER KeyMod Rail will redefine tactical handguards the same way the BCMGUNFIGHTER Charging handle has redefined that market. -- pretty good tease?.... stay tuned :D
Wow, quite a statement. I'm really looking forward to seeing more. I'd guess that has to have something to do with the attachment method/anti-rotation.
Technical question on KeyMod for anyone who knows (and hopefully OP doesn't mind the hijack): why doesn't the skinny end of the key open back up slightly to provide a more secure slot for the attachment screws to secure to? That would prevent the attachments from sliding. Wouldn't that protect against counter-recoil and be a better method than relying on a little hook that goes in the next opening over?
Should have the thorntail keymod in my hands shortly. Worried it may be too universal but we'll see.
Wow, quite a statement. I'm really looking forward to seeing more. I'd guess that has to have something to do with the attachment method/anti-rotation.
Technical question on KeyMod for anyone who knows (and hopefully OP doesn't mind the hijack): why doesn't the skinny end of the key open back up slightly to provide a more secure slot for the attachment screws to secure to? That would prevent the attachments from sliding. Wouldn't that protect against counter-recoil and be a better method than relying on a little hook that goes in the next opening over?
The attachments don't slide in keymod and it doesn't need anti recoil protection any more than it already has.
Look at pictures of the under side of attachments to understand.
I wonder why they don't put keymod on the top (with some picatinny at the top front for buis)?
NeoNeanderthal
07-20-13, 23:57
I want to put a vote in for a 13.5" model. 12" and 13" are too small. 15" is too big. 13.5 is juuuust right. Plus then I can do a FSB cut-out and still have room for a x300/tlr1 in front of the front sight @12oclock.
Oh don't forget cost. If they can sell this rail for under $200 they will clean house.
I agree, we should totally throw out any quality so we can keep the rail as cheap as possible. Heaven forbid the rail be over $200 so the bottom feeders can pretend they will buy it.
BCM is known for making cheap worthless crap, so you should have no concerns at all when it comes to pricing. I'm guessing it should be under $99. :rolleyes:
If people don't understand the above as a sarcastic rant, at this point I really don't care. I'm tired of people cheerleading for the cheapest prices while demanding top of the line products.
Paul, sorry for ranting in your thread brother, but this stuff reminds me over and over of the people who buy buy airsoft parts and complain they don't fit their Olympic Arms carbines. You gear is squared away, and I know you will price is where it needs to be. God bless you for having more patience than me tonight. Every time a new product is talked about it is the price or delivery date that people start bitching about.
NN- It isn't your post in particular, but your comment is where these threads start to go downhill.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
07-21-13, 01:13
Should have the thorntail keymod in my hands shortly. Worried it may be too universal but we'll see.
It's not. I gave 6 samples away to various level people for T&E as well as HSP. Including some to Matt and his product eval guys. See review: http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2013/07/19/keymod-mounts-from-iwc-and-haley-strategic-partners/
Nothing but positive comments. You'll like it or I'll send you a refund.
Mount-N-Slot
MOUNT-N-SLOT
07-21-13, 01:17
Technical question on KeyMod for anyone who knows (and hopefully OP doesn't mind the hijack): why doesn't the skinny end of the key open back up slightly to provide a more secure slot for the attachment screws to secure to? That would prevent the attachments from sliding. Wouldn't that protect against counter-recoil and be a better method than relying on a little hook that goes in the next opening over?
The shape of the key with the round hole in the rear is for the recoil locking lug. The mount interfaces in this hole with .010" clearance and the screws keep it tight against the rail. It's a well thought out design. We made a slight change to our mounts to allow them to fit fwd / rwd (Our Weapon Control for ex.) compared to Eric's initial design.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
NeoNeanderthal
07-21-13, 01:21
woah, I'm not too worried about this thread going downhill. I was just stating that the things I could see BCM offering over an NSR is lighter (don't really see how), skinnier, keymod all the way around and less expensive. People don't buy BCM anything to put on their olympic arms guns.
BCM puts things out at insanely low prices so if anyone could produce a rail on par with/better than the NSR at a cheaper price, bcm could.
Btw not everyone gets tons of gear for free stick :-).
While your here, what are your thoughts on the new Parallax Rail? I held one at a local store and was extremely impressed with it. Though surprised i had never heard of it. Saw you took some pictures of it so I was just curious on your impressions, seeing as how you've held more lightwieght rails than a catholic priest.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
07-21-13, 01:24
I agree, we should totally throw out any quality so we can keep the rail as cheap as possible. Heaven forbid the rail be over $200 so the bottom feeders can pretend they will buy it.
I'm tired of people cheerleading for the cheapest prices while demanding top of the line products.
KeyMod is less expensive to manufacture than a typical 1913 rail of the same length / diameter / material. The caveat to this is receiver attachment device / method.
As for quality, BCM makes top-shelf kit, the KeyMod they are finalizing is no exception.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
richdkim77
07-21-13, 01:59
woah, I'm not too worried about this thread going downhill. I was just stating that the things I could see BCM offering over an NSR is lighter (don't really see how), skinnier, keymod all the way around and less expensive. People don't buy BCM anything to put on their olympic arms guns.
BCM puts things out at insanely low prices so if anyone could produce a rail on par with/better than the NSR at a cheaper price, bcm could.
Btw not everyone gets tons of gear for free stick :-).
While your here, what are your thoughts on the new Parallax Rail? I held one at a local store and was extremely impressed with it. Though surprised i had never heard of it. Saw you took some pictures of it so I was just curious on your impressions, seeing as how you've held more lightwieght rails than a catholic priest.
You'll have to excuse Stick. He texted that he ran out of Scotch yesterday and he's been on a spinner ever since, guess he hasn't replenished :D
You'll have to excuse Stick. He texted that he ran out of Scotch yesterday and he's been on a spinner ever since, guess he hasn't replenished :D
Lol, hope you are doing well. Wait until you get my next text... :p
Btw not everyone gets tons of gear for free.
Wait, are you serious? ;)
Wait, are you serious? ;)
Seriously. Everyone knows they pay you to take their stuff. :). The nerve of some people
I noticed in a pic on another site what looked like anti-rotation tabs, which is a very nice feature if it makes to final production. Look forward to more details as they trickle out.
Stick, there is no arguing with people that want to buy the wrong gear at the "right" price. Fortunately, I think that crowd is in the minority here.
Every time a new product is talked about it is the price or delivery date that people start bitching about.
My thoughts exactly. The same crap happened in the Centurion CMR thread. Let the manufacturer set their prices and you can vote with your wallet.
I'm looking forward to seeing more information on the BCM keymod rail. The mounting points on the 45's really intrigue me. Depending on the barrel nut design, I may have found a keymod rail that actually interests me.
Does anyone know if there are other designs available currently with the 45 degree mounting points? The KAC & BCM prototypes are the only ones I've seen so far.
richdkim77
07-22-13, 09:46
Mega Arms MKM... They will have the 45 degree keymods. 5.56 version is rumored to be out soon.
NeoNeanderthal
07-23-13, 13:11
FYI
LAV just posted the best pic of it so far on his facebook page. Also mentioned it's an aluminum/magnesium blend that is extremely lightweight.
You can see the anti rotation tabs (score). However, the method of attachment to the barrel nut is new to me. I don't know what i'm looking at. Maybe someone who knows more about proprietary barrel nuts/ff rails could shed some light. (I see a single screw up so high it looks like it should be hitting the gas tube.)Certainly looks nothing like centurian, NSR, or troy methods that i've seen.
Edit to add: I would post the pic or a link to it here, but I dont think that is kosher.
WickedWillis
07-23-13, 13:17
Picture help of LAV's BCM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153038936950416&set=a.10151236579360416.800876.295755495415&type=1&theater
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/s720x720/945723_10153038936950416_65110875_n.jpg
C4
skijunkie55
07-23-13, 13:27
where's the pre-order link?? :)
WickedWillis
07-23-13, 13:33
I'm pondering if it's worth chopping my A2 and running my mid-length through this.
pointblank4445
07-23-13, 13:34
(pic of Larry's gun)
C4
According to the description on facebook:
"Add that to a BCM 14.5 hammer forged pencil barrel with pinned BCM gunfighter combination flash hider and comp the overall effect is for a carbine that handles extremely well!!"
Does this mean Larry's running a 14.5" middy now?...given that the BHF 14.5" is a middy.
According to the description on facebook:
"Add that to a BCM 14.5 hammer forged pencil barrel with pinned BCM gunfighter combination flash hider and comp the overall effect is for a carbine that handles extremely well!!"
Does this mean Larry's running a 14.5" middy now?...given that the BHF 14.5" is a middy.
Yes on a middy. He has had tons of middy's in the past I believe.
C4
NeoNeanderthal
07-23-13, 14:13
Does this mean Larry's running a 14.5" middy now?...given that the BHF 14.5" is a middy.
Was his signature DD gun a 16" middy?? I thought it was
Perhaps I'm missing something about the design ........ wouldn't it be better for the smaller diameter to be rearward?
Or do accessories want to move forward under recoil?
Was his signature DD gun a 16" middy?? I thought it was
It was a carbine.
So KINCEL is who I have to blame for this hipster keymod crap.
Off to AMAZON to order a Kincel VooDoo doll and poke pin kit. :mad:
Oh give Keymod a chance. It's a much better system than attaching rail sections to slick hand guards just to attach something.
Granted most people aren't attaching anything to the sides or bottom anymore except for flashlights and the occasional handstop. Still a good idea, and I'm not a weight weenie.
It has an integrated QD mount, correct?
PatrioticDisorder
07-23-13, 15:28
Nice looking rail, looks like BCM has a winner on their hands.
Don't forget about Counter-Recoil, which is actually worse, when it comes to a sharp impulse. Courter-Recoil breaks optics, not recoil. Also, the KeyMod interface and related accessories utilizes "both ends" of the slot to secure properly, combating either direction of recoil.
Perhaps I'm missing something about the design ........ wouldn't it be better for the smaller diameter to be rearward?
Or do accessories want to move forward under recoil?
Don't forget about Counter-Recoil, which is actually worse, when it comes to a sharp impulse. Courter-Recoil breaks optics, not recoil. Also, the KeyMod interface and related accessories utilizes "both ends" of the slot to secure properly, combating either direction of recoil.
Always nice to read your posts. :)
Does anyone know if BCM will make plastic covers like Noveske did for the NSR? I was pretty set on the NSR but I may be persuaded to wait for this.
NeoNeanderthal
07-23-13, 18:33
Any insight into how it attaches to the barrel nut??
Rockhopper
07-24-13, 00:09
But I can say this; the BCMGUFNIGHTER KeyMod Rail will redefine tactical handguards
I am looking forward to this rail very much. I do own and love a 13.5" NSR, but am not a kool aid drinker. However, that is a VERY bold statement. There is only so much you can do with keymod IMHO. With the exception of the slots being on the 45's...how could it be anymore revolutionary than an NSR? Proprietary attatchment methods/barrel nuts are so individualized. Some will love it, some will hate it. I can see revolutionary keymod attatchments...but the rail itself? Bold. Very bold. What i would VERY much love to see is a octagon keymod rail with keymod holes on the top of the rail...not picatinny. Then you can add sections as you see fit. Small section if front for BUIS, etc. But the rail would be mostly round and even lighter.
NeoNeanderthal
07-24-13, 00:25
Keep in mind we know very little about this rail right now. However we already know it has anti-rotation tabs, keypads on the 45's, aluminum magnesium mix (IE wikid light), and possibly built in QD's. Also you've got to realize that bcm has a knack for making good shit and selling it very inexpensively. So a rail that is lighter then NSR, built in qd's, anti-rotation tabs, key mods all around, for cheaper....just that alone is revolutionary dude.
Keep in mind we know very little about this rail right now. However we already know it has anti-rotation tabs, keypads on the 45's, aluminum magnesium mix (IE wikid light), and possibly built in QD's. Also you've got to realize that bcm has a knack for making good shit and selling it very inexpensively. So a rail that is lighter then NSR, built in qd's, anti-rotation tabs, key mods all around, for cheaper....just that alone is revolutionary dude.
Most of that is conjecture at this point by your own admission.
Wait a minute, that screw on top near the receiver in LAV's picture... Is that a gas tube valve?!
Most of that is conjecture at this point by your own admission.
I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.
I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.
Could be that too, hard to tell without smilies.
Rockhopper
07-24-13, 01:06
just that alone is revolutionary dude.
not in my eyes. different, yes. improved upon, absolutely. i dont need built in qd. thats the point of keymod. you can put it where you want. but far from revolutionary enough to make statements such as that when there are already outstanding products on the market. that said, i cant wait to see and try one.
but like i said...an ocatagon keymod tube that is 100% end user customizable for accesories with a rock solid barrel nut and attatchment point. make it super tough and super light weight. to me, that is the ultimate in keymod and (in my eyes anyway) what keymod should be about. absolutey 100% customizable and configureable to user needs and minimalist. What I cant wait for is the flood of keymod accessories to start hitting the market. To me, that is much more needed than additional rails put out by every company. But I do realize a company would probably produce a rail before they start making accesories for it. just my $.02.
I don't think NeoNean was being sarcastic. He brings up valid points.
I don't know that the rail is revolutionary though. VLTOR coming up with the concept (to my knowledge), VLTOR having the good foresight to share the specs with the industry, and Noveske coming out with an amazing initial offering - those things were revolutionary for the KeyMod and will be the pivotal moments if KeyMod continues to become the "next big thing".
But if BCM can offer their own version of a KeyMod rail that is lighter due to different materials while being just as durable (or more so), and possibly offer it at a lower price.... well, then Paul and Company just raised the bar further.
Taking a concept and making it better and / or cheaper without sacrificing durability, quality, or being domestically made is what pushes the market forward. There are some great rails on the market under $200, and its being mentioned by an SME that KeyMod is cheaper to produce. Therefore, a low price point seems entirely possible. I think it will be largely dependent on this new lighter weight metal belt used and how much the raw material costs in comparison to Aluminum.
gesundheit
07-24-13, 02:31
The way I see it is some folks arguing about an unreleased product. It may be the best thing since sliced bread. It may not be.
Personally, I would wait for BCM to work through initial issues and release the product specs before weighing on how much their rail is better/equal/worse than Noveske's.
P.S. Noveske's description of Keymod development does not jive with what BCM rep has listed in this thread. But that may be a topic for another thread.
Could be that too, hard to tell without smilies.
When this board started out, someone making comments about price without legit information would have been eaten alive. They would have been flat out told to stop spreading BS rumors.
I want one but I will wait until it comes out and decide between it and an NSR. Can't beat either one. No point in bickering about it.
just a scout
07-24-13, 07:40
Everything I've bought from BCM has been flawless. Almost like Apple products, you don't know you want it or need it until its out. Having said that, I will happily ditch my Troy tubes (which I love) for these seconds after I can get my grubby booger hooks on them and not look back. Thank you Paul for the work you do.
However we already know it has anti-rotation tabs, keypads on the 45's, aluminum magnesium mix (IE wikid light), and possibly built in QD's. ... So a rail that is lighter then NSR, built in qd's, anti-rotation tabs, key mods all around, for cheaperWhere are the built-in QDs? How much does it weigh? Cheaper? How much will it cost?
But if BCM can offer their own version of a KeyMod rail that is lighter due to different materials while being just as durable (or more so), and possibly offer it at a lower price....
There are some great rails on the market under $200, and its being mentioned by an SME that KeyMod is cheaper to produce. Therefore, a low price point seems entirely possible. I think it will be largely dependent on this new lighter weight metal belt used and how much the raw material costs in comparison to Aluminum.How is the "different" material lighter and how is it "different" from say, an aluminum alloy? What are some great rails on the market under $200?
The way I see it is some folks arguing about an unreleased product. It may be the best thing since sliced bread. It may not be.
Personally, I would wait for BCM to work through initial issues and release the product specs before weighing on how much their rail is better/equal/worse than Noveske's.
P.S. Noveske's description of Keymod development does not jive with what BCM rep has listed in this thread. But that may be a topic for another thread.
BCM Rep??? There is no BCM Rep. That was the man himself (Paul).
C4
ScatmanCrothers
07-24-13, 08:13
BCM Rep??? There is no BCM Rep. That was the man himself (Paul).
C4
Who is a representative of his company and products. The most legit and well informed rep of the company actually.
Who is a representative of his company and products. The most legit and well informed rep of the company actually.
Yes, but when used in its traditional "Rep" manner, it implies that they do not know what they are talking about.
C4
Yes, but when used in its traditional "Rep" manner, it implies that they do not know what they are talking about.
Then I should be a Keymod REP! :D
Larry Vickers
07-24-13, 08:23
I would think that since Eric Kincel now works for BCM , and Kincel developed the keymod, that maybe the historical info put out by BCM would be accurate
But that's just me
Don't forget about Counter-Recoil, which is actually worse, when it comes to a sharp impulse. Courter-Recoil breaks optics, not recoil. Also, the KeyMod interface and related accessories utilizes "both ends" of the slot to secure properly, combating either direction of recoil.
I'm not seeing how that is possible (based on the spec). You have a larger diameter (a keyhole), a chamfered nut fits within/thru that keyhole, slides forward into the keyway then gets tightened up. The chamfer of the stud locks onto the backside chamfer of the keyway (vs the keyhole) by way of tension.
I must be missing something, perhaps something on the accessory side.
Edit: I'm guessing Detail B is a requirement on all keymod accessories themselves (for the system to work fully) ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Keymod_accessory_details.JPG
I would think that since Eric Kincel now works for BCM , and Kincel developed the keymod, that maybe the historical info put out by BCM would be accurate
But that's just me
You would think so, right? ;)
Guys I say lets just wait for the rail to be released. If the rail is priced over $200 who cares we all the know and trust the BCM quality. We know that Paul is not going to put out a poor product.
I'm not seeing how that is possible (based on the spec). You have a larger diameter (a keyhole), a chamfered nut fits within/thru that keyhole, slides forward into the keyway then gets tightened up. The chamfer of the stud locks onto the backside chamfer of the keyway (vs the keyhole) by way of tension.
I must be missing something, perhaps something on the accessory side.
Edit: I'm guessing Detail B is a requirement on all keymod accessories themselves (for the system to work fully) ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Keymod_accessory_details.JPG
Honestly just looking at the plans, I didn't get it at first either. I'll take pictures at lunch and post them in an hour or two, check back then.
Correct, detail B shows the counter-recoil lug.
The chamfered nut in the chamfered slot gives a significant purchase to screw-attached items. The nut also acts as a recoil lug. When fired, the weapon moves to the 'rear', heavy accessories don't want to move to the rear, and thus are being shoved 'forward' on the rail. However, recoil forces build-up in relation to the acceleration of the projectile and aren't very 'sharp' impulses. They have a curve to them.
The larger thru-hole portion of the keymod acts as a passage for installation of the nut, but also acts as a counter-recoil feature. When the BCG slams shut, there is a sharp impulse wanting to drive the gun forward, and accessories 'to the rear'. Those accessories are typically also already moving rearward due to recoil - thus counter-recoil is both a greater force and a sharper one as well (as Mr. Kincel pointed out, it's counter recoil that kills optics).
The thru-hole portion is also conveniently sized to clear the nose of a QD sling swivel (actual required size would have only been ~.315"), but is not intended to be used as a socket. This is because the diameter is interrupted by the slot feature.
I'm not seeing how that is possible (based on the spec). You have a larger diameter (a keyhole), a chamfered nut fits within/thru that keyhole, slides forward into the keyway then gets tightened up. The chamfer of the stud locks onto the backside chamfer of the keyway (vs the keyhole) by way of tension.
I must be missing something, perhaps something on the accessory side.
Edit: I'm guessing Detail B is a requirement on all keymod accessories themselves (for the system to work fully) ?
Guys I say lets just wait for the rail to be released. If the rail is priced over $200 who cares we all the know and trust the BCM quality. We know that Paul is not going to put out a poor product.
It is nearly impossible to have a rail made out of a Magnesium Alloy, that is lighter than the competition, has Distr/Dealer pricing levels and retail at $200 or below. So people can forget about that fantasyland!
C4
Nevermind, looks like it was pretty well explained here.
Yes, but when used in its traditional "Rep" manner, it implies that they do not know what they are talking about.
C4
+1, when used in this industry. "Rep" has a very specific meaning.
I understand it seems to be the status quo for online forums, but perhaps we should actually wait until the rail is out, or at least details are released, before we try to dissect it
NeoNeanderthal
07-24-13, 12:06
Wow, didn't mean to start a shit storm. Wasn't trying to imply that the rail would sell for under 200. Just saying if they were some how able to do that they would dominate the market.
Also, wasn't trying to spread rumors about features just rebutting people saying they can't imagine how it could be revolutionary by listing some things bcm could easily be putting into the rail.
Both paul and LAV are pretty stoked about the rail so I am quite confident it will at least be extremely interesting. Has anyone ever seen LAV run a ff tube rail? I haven't, so I'm hoping this one is something special. Plus I'm in the market for a new rail.
It is nearly impossible to have a rail made out of a Magnesium Alloy, that is lighter than the competition, has Distr/Dealer pricing levels and retail at $200 or below. So people can forget about that fantasyland!
C4
Well put Grant. I am sure it will be priced fairly, But a lot of people want to have top of the line gear and pay bushmaster prices.
WickedWillis
07-24-13, 14:09
BCM on a Bushmaster budget? :sarcastic:
Well put Grant. I am sure it will be priced fairly, But a lot of people want to have top of the line gear and pay bushmaster prices.
BCM on a Bushmaster budget? :sarcastic:
Not BCM. Just the certain people who cry about the price of gear.
WickedWillis
07-24-13, 14:19
I was referencing the champagne on a beer budget saying, nvm.
Not BCM. Just the certain people who cry about the price of gear.
I was referencing the champagne on a beer budget saying, nvm.
My bad brother. Its been a long day. I misread your post. You hit the nail on the head.
P.S. Noveske's description of Keymod development does not jive with what BCM rep has listed in this thread. But that may be a topic for another thread.
Interesting. What is Noveske claiming about KeyMod that varies from VLTOR and BCM?
How is the "different" material lighter and how is it "different" from say, an aluminum alloy? What are some great rails on the market under $200?
It was mentioned in this thread that the new Magnesium-whatever is lighter than Aluminum Alloy. It's different, based on what's been stated, because its a different material that is lighter. If this is true (I've seen no reason to think its a lie) than it is an improvement over what's on the market.
Off the top of my head, the Troy TRX, the TRX Alpha / Bravo, the VTAC, the VTAC Alpha / Bravo, the Apex gator tube rail, and my personal favorite - the Midwest Gen 2 Super Slim are all tube style hand guards that come in around or under $200 while being quality choices. I'm sure I've missed a bunch.
I think Grant killed any hopes of the rail being under $200 though. Being a little familiar with how BCM actually leaves room for dealers to make money, and the fact it's made in the US... I'm perfectly fine with it being $200+. It was an arbitrary number being used by NeoNeanderthal anyways to make a point that BCM generally prices their stuff really competitively.
Anyone know more about the material being used? To me, that's the most interesting part about this rail system.
ScatmanCrothers
07-24-13, 15:46
+1, when used in this industry. "Rep" has a very specific meaning.
Reading too much into 'rep'. Sales rep or product rep is a specific meaning. Rep is just short for representative which any employee, including the owner, at BCM is.
Reading 'BCM rep' as selling him short is silly.
It is nearly impossible to have a rail made out of a Magnesium Alloy, that is lighter than the competition, has Distr/Dealer pricing levels and retail at $200 or below. So people can forget about that fantasyland!
C4
Do you know what alloy they are using? Hopefully this isn't a play on the fact that 6061/7075 are alloyed with magnesium.
It was mentioned in this thread that the new Magnesium-whatever is lighter than Aluminum Alloy. It's different, based on what's been stated, because its a different material that is lighter. If this is true (I've seen no reason to think its a lie) than it is an improvement over what's on the market.
Anyone know more about the material being used? To me, that's the most interesting part about this rail system.
The material type is very interesting. While magnesium alloys do not cost much more than aluminum, the special tooling and machining environments are more expensive. Another consideration is how they are going to finish it. Hard coat anodizing is off the list.
Hopefully this isn't a play on the fact that 6061/7075 are alloyed with magnesium.
It isn't.
It isn't.
What alloy are they using?
Has the length(s) of these rails been disclosed yet?
Sent via Tapatalk
rapomstage3
07-24-13, 19:28
I am pumped for this rail. Hopefully it's easier to get than other bcm products.
I haven't seen it mentioned, is there an estimated release time for this thing? I just ordered a SMR MK1 but may not even install it if this thing is just around the corner.
RogerinTPA
07-24-13, 19:50
I'm really looking forward to seeing this new rail. Lighter is always better, as we've seen in the current trend of slimming down and shaving oz's from rails from all the major players. I have an NSR that I'm very impressed with. If this rail is in fact lighter, it could be the game changer, or definitely a close competitor to the NSR, and make other rails basically obsolete.
PatrioticDisorder
07-24-13, 19:55
I'm really looking forward to seeing this new rail. Lighter is always better, as we've seen in the current trend of slimming down and shaving oz's from rails from all the major players. I have an NSR that I'm very impressed with. If this rail is in fact lighter, it could be the game changer, or definitely a close competitor to the NSR, and make other rails basically obsolete.
I don't think the other modular rails or even the lightweight quad rails (daniel defense) are going anywhere. Options are always nice, some will like the keymod, others won't. I myself am very interested in this rail, I can see myself buying a BCM with one of these. Definitely a bold move by BCM!
What alloy are they using?
There is a lot of information that isn't being released right now, if BCM wants to post that, it is certainly their purview. However, what I would consider inside info is not going to come from me. :)
I haven't seen it mentioned, is there an estimated release time for this thing? I just ordered a SMR MK1 but may not even install it if this thing is just around the corner.
Fall is the estimated time frame.
C4
Fall is the estimated time frame.
C4
Do you by chance have a weight on this thing?
gesundheit
07-25-13, 01:28
Yes, but when used in its traditional "Rep" manner, it implies that they do not know what they are talking about.
C4
Actually the traditional "Rep" needs to know his stuff more than a regular salesman. He is representing his company. So if he does not possess knowledge of his own products, this reflects badly on the company. I don't consider it a pejorative term like you do.
Anyway enough of this thread derailing. I am excited about any new product that will bring the quality level up across the board and will wait for specs of these rails to be released by BCM.
How about we stop with all the bullshit and just discuss what's known. I know why companies are reluctant to say or post anything about products. People go crazy and act like wild hyenas.
kantstudien
07-25-13, 02:16
Isn't magnesium flammable? Cause for concern?
Isn't magnesium flammable? Cause for concern?
Don't blowtorch your rail and you won't have to worry.
Try and ignite a block of magnesium sometime. It's tougher than you think.
Isn't magnesium flammable? Cause for concern?
Aluminum is flammable too...
How about we stop with all the bullshit and just discuss what's known. I know why companies are reluctant to say or post anything about products. People go crazy and act like wild hyenas.
Agree. It's a rail for Christ's sake, not a new space shuttle.
I use a troy alpha tube, with a mount and slot QD swivel, a magpul VFG directly mounted to the tube, and a jetbeam BC10 in a gear sector e series mount at 12. I don't use any additional rail sections. I can't claim to know enough about the weight to say it would be heavier or lighter than my current setup, but I'd assume heavier.
Assuming no weight savings and with the knowledge I have no problem removing my tube, why would something like this benefit me?
As for the magnesium thing, there is plenty of it in older VW engines and I've seen them get bored out without catching fire. Nobody is heating their rail more than that.
Actually the traditional "Rep" needs to know his stuff more than a regular salesman. He is representing his company. So if he does not possess knowledge of his own products, this reflects badly on the company. I don't consider it a pejorative term like you do.
You must not deal with firearms industry reps much. Many of the large companies higher marketing/PR firms to run their FB and forum sections. These people know very little about the product, don't shoot and are generally NOT gun guys from my experience.
So yes a "rep" is SUPPOSED to know his "stuff", but that is rarely the case in this industry from my experience.
C4
I use a troy alpha tube, with a mount and slot QD swivel, a magpul VFG directly mounted to the tube, and a jetbeam BC10 in a gear sector e series mount at 12. I don't use any additional rail sections. I can't claim to know enough about the weight to say it would be heavier or lighter than my current setup, but I'd assume heavier.
Assuming no weight savings and with the knowledge I have no problem removing my tube, why would something like this benefit me?
As for the magnesium thing, there is plenty of it in older VW engines and I've seen them get bored out without catching fire. Nobody is heating their rail more than that.
Knowing what little I know, the BCM rail will be lighter than what you are using now and probably have less flex in it.
Is that worth it to you? I cannot answer that question.
C4
People go crazy and act like wild hyenas.
Hyenas deserve more respect that to be compared with internut forum product speculators. :(
There is a lot of information that isn't being released right now, if BCM wants to post that, it is certainly their purview. However, what I would consider inside info is not going to come from me. :)
Your subtle attitude shift didn't go unnoticed. Post #6 your bitchin' a bit and now your on the inside throwing smoke for the big tease.
Why does a thread about a part almost everyone knows nothing about have to turn into an agruement??
Until someone has played with it or BCM releases more specifics why don't we just leave it alone. Gets ridiculous sometimes.
-Jax
Knowing what little I know, the BCM rail will be lighter than what you are using now and probably have less flex in it.
Is that worth it to you? I cannot answer that question.
C4
Thanks for the info, I guess it will depend on how much lighter.
Why does a thread about a part almost everyone knows nothing about have to turn into an agruement??
Until someone has played with it or BCM releases more specifics why don't we just leave it alone. Gets ridiculous sometimes.
-Jax
It doesn't take long hanging out on a forum to realize that some folks just like to argue. It doesn't even matter if they have a dog in the fight.
Why does a thread about a part almost everyone knows nothing about have to turn into an agruement??
Until someone has played with it or BCM releases more specifics why don't we just leave it alone. Gets ridiculous sometimes.
-Jax
Hey... New rail releases are like a childbirth... Messy and painful. But you get something cute and new to play with. All part of the process. :D
Cincinnatus
07-25-13, 10:55
I for one am proud to be a member of a forum where industry professionals and SMEs post information in real time and answer questions; my concern is that all this ARFCOM-style bickering and SPECULATING without facts and actual first-hand experience--which is against forum standards--will exasperate serious pros to where they won't bother to post anymore. Folks need to quit sucking the oxygen out of the room and give some respect to people who do these things for a living and have more knowledge about these things than most of us could ever hope to obtain, and who bring us the very products that make this forum possible. OORAH!?
I for one am proud to be a member of a forum where industry professionals and SMEs post information in real time and answer questions; my concern is that all this ARFCOM-style bickering and SPECULATING without facts and actual first-hand experience--which is against forum standards--will exasperate serious pros to where they won't bother to post anymore. Folks need to quit sucking the oxygen out of the room and give some respect to people who do these things for a living and have more knowledge about these things than most of us could ever hope to obtain, and who bring us the very products that make this forum possible. OORAH!?
Very well said Cincinnatus. Oh and its spelled HOOAH. ;)
-Jax
ETA:
markm,
I would think this being a keymod rail you would want this baby aborted before birth!!
wilson1911
07-25-13, 11:13
I would like to say I am glad someone else is coming out with a keymod rail that will be quality. I have 1 15" and 3 13.5 " NSR rails atm. while I do love these rails and have them on all my guns. There are several improvements that can be made.
I have noticed that the top picatiny rail is slightly lower than the receiver portion on NSR's.
The plastic panels I do not like, but I use them.
The keymod attachments always need to have a long or short rail section for mods to be attached. Direct attachment is preferred. This will move the item closer to the rail and be more stream lined.
Barrel nut seems to always be tightened down to between 70-80 lbs. This is a little tight for my taste, but it works. I actually like the barrel nut, its clean and simple to put on.
After taking Costa's class, I can say the gun with a NSR points very well, as well as helping have good hand placement and retention.
I cannot say if lighter and smaller would be a positive note. This being due to the size of your hand. Bigger hands tend to wrap around the whole gun more, leaving you with less of a "meatyer" feeling. Guys with larger hands may want more diameter. This could possibly be from years of 1913 style rails. In essence, sometimes a bit more is better for guys with larger hands. I have short fingers, so the NSR, is the bomb imho. Its very clean and grippy.
I also have the KAC rubber thumb stop on top to allow me to have the same exact hand placement every time.
A new rail should be an evolution of the standard (NSR) since he came out with one first.
Let's not forget KAC is coming out with theirs soon (I hope) which looks very good also.
At class Costa had one with his attachments directly to it, this I liked. Rubber panels I liked also. I am not a Costa fanboy, but a KAC fan boy. Nothing shoots like them.
There will be minor differences is rails, but what I would like to see is someone create some cool mods to attach to the rail in a clean and efficient manner.
Thankyou :dance3:BCM for coming out with good products at fare prices. More products = a better choice for the consumer and better prices.
gesundheit
07-25-13, 12:07
You must not deal with firearms industry reps much. Many of the large companies higher marketing/PR firms to run their FB and forum sections. These people know very little about the product, don't shoot and are generally NOT gun guys from my experience.
So yes a "rep" is SUPPOSED to know his "stuff", but that is rarely the case in this industry from my experience.
Can't argue otherwise since you have a lot more experience than (actually more than I will ever have :)) I have dealing with industry reps. Now here is to hoping folks here wait for the rail specs to be released.
wilson1911, do you know when KAC is releasing their rail?
wilson1911
07-25-13, 12:15
They are working on ecm's atm. So I would bet 1 year knowing them.
Swamp Yankee
07-25-13, 12:15
Looking forward to this rail. Regardless of price, weight, accessories, industry rep knowledge, dimensions, mounting system, colors, flavors, or odors. Love me some BCM and really want a tubular rail.
Fire up.
ETA:
markm,
I would think this being a keymod rail you would want this baby aborted before birth!!
Nah... If people want to run these things... go for it.
If the attachment system becomes standard and stays standard for 5 years... I'll adopt it. :)
sinlessorrow
07-25-13, 13:11
How do you say PWS and BCM make the Keymod rails, and some other people do as well, and fail to mention NOVESKE who were the first to use it on an AR platform? I shut it off after that.
The BCM rail looks good, but there aren't many ways to configure a Keymod so I think we will see a lot which look similar. The largest differences are going to be how wide a company goes and its attachment method.
To be really technical didnt VLTOR start the keymod? They had vis Prototypes before anyone I believe.
Noveske was just the first MFR to use VLTORS new goodies on the rifles they build.
Why does a thread about a part almost everyone knows nothing about have to turn into an agruement??
Until someone has played with it or BCM releases more specifics why don't we just leave it alone. Gets ridiculous sometimes.
-Jax
I wonder if it's the same with women on fashion sites and if they go at eachothers throats over purses and stuff.
I wonder if it's the same with women on fashion sites and if they go at eachothers throats over purses and stuff.
Hard to imagine there's worse Vaginal insanity than you find on gun forums. :D
Your subtle attitude shift didn't go unnoticed. Post #6 your bitchin' a bit and now your on the inside throwing smoke for the big tease.
No shift at all, I still think it is goofy to decline to mention Noveske as they were the first ones selling a Keymod rail. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it is a business, and reps are there to plug their sponsors. I don't have a hard time with that.
That doesn't negate that I've known about the BCM Keymod rail for awhile. I consider Paul a friend and speak with him on a regular basis.
There are a lot of industry products that are being developed right now from new weapons, to accessories, to armor, to clothing that I'm aware of. I won't make comments on any of them, even the ones I'm closely involved with. When things are made public, or I'm cleared to talk about them or post pictures, then I do.
Hard to imagine there's worse Vaginal insanity than you find on gun forums. :D
I find myself agreeing with you a lot these days.
Cincinnatus
07-25-13, 15:13
Oh and its spelled HOOAH. ;)
-Jax
!
That's some Army pogue, REMF BS right there. :jester: :D
That's some Army pogue, REMF BS right there. :jester: :D
No Pogue here brother! :D
Any love for hua?
...
I'll just go back to my tigerstripe camo...
Hard to imagine there's worse Vaginal insanity than you find on gun forums. :D
Ha! there is much truth in this statement for sure.
FWIW, as an NSR owner, I'm happy to see additional Keymod offerings such as this and the URX 4. More adoption means more accessories and more variety and more competition. It's all win.
FWIW, I agree with those who have posted they would like to see Keymod slots all the way around, with just a short bit of rail on the top at 12 o'clock. I run a X300U and BUIS at 12 o'clock and QD mounts and that's all. 5" of rail seems like it would be about perfect. Having built in QDs front and aft would be nice as well, but I understand opinion varies since you give up the more generic attachment point.
-john
The trouble with an interrupted rail in the top of a hand guard is the gas tube (or piston for those of you with them).
The height of the upper doesn't allow for use of a 'standard' height pic-rail to be mounted at the 12 o'clock position without interfering with the gas tube. Thus the top accessory rails would become a proprietary component for that location only.
.... did I miss the "fight" in this thread?
An arbitrary number was given for the price based on BCM's previous pricing techniques, which someone in the know said wasn't possible.
Ain't a thang, chicken wang.
I'd still love to know the weight on the rail if anyone knows and can release such info. Looks like a solid contender in the KeyMod market.
wilson1911
07-26-13, 18:42
Since BCM are reading this thread also it seems, can the current NSR owners please chime in on what you like and think could be improved on ???
They are trying to bring a product to market and I am sure they would appreciate input from current keymod rail owners. Lets try to make this a constructive thread. I know we all want more advanced gear, and this is a great time to throw your ideas and gripes around.
Leave price off the table and who started what first.
Rockhopper
07-26-13, 19:17
The trouble with an interrupted rail in the top of a hand guard is the gas tube (or piston for those of you with them).
this makes perfect sense and i would assume in order to accomodate it would make the diameter of the tube quite large. that is the one thing the NSR has going for it. VERY slender. putting keymods on the 45's and keeping an extremely slender tube would seem next to impossible to me. you would have to open up the diameter to accomodate. but if it could be done...you would very much be on to something there.
Since BCM are reading this thread also it seems, can the current NSR owners please chime in on what you like and think could be improved on ???
They are trying to bring a product to market and I am sure they would appreciate input from current keymod rail owners. Lets try to make this a constructive thread. I know we all want more advanced gear, and this is a great time to throw your ideas and gripes around.
Leave price off the table and who started what first.
1. A barrel nut that doesn't have to be timed with the handguard
2. An exterior anti-rotational tab
3. 45 degree mounts. *Remedied by BCM & KAC
4. FSB cut out versions (please)
5. Many may want a heat shield. Not an issue for me
Thinking....
Besides those things I can't recall another improvement for my purposes. I could complain about a lack of a direct mount vert grip and similar other items but I am certain these are in the pipeline. Its just the industry catching up with this relatively new mounting method. Looking forward to the future.
-Jax
Rockhopper
07-26-13, 20:19
1. A barrel nut that doesn't have to be timed with the handguard and is completely rock solid!
2. An exterior anti-rotational tab
3. 45 degree mounts. *Remedied by BCM & KAC
4. FSB cut out versions (please) including a 2 peice? this may require added weight.
5. Many may want a heat shield. Not an issue for me
6. Keep it absolutely as narrow as possible
That about sums it up! But I still would not call it a redefinition of tactical handguards. Just minor improvements.
Don't suppose there's any chance for a DPMS AR10 version? :)
I agree, we should totally throw out any quality so we can keep the rail as cheap as possible. Heaven forbid the rail be over $200 so the bottom feeders can pretend they will buy it.
BCM is known for making cheap worthless crap, so you should have no concerns at all when it comes to pricing. I'm guessing it should be under $99. :rolleyes:
If people don't understand the above as a sarcastic rant, at this point I really don't care. I'm tired of people cheerleading for the cheapest prices while demanding top of the line products.
Paul, sorry for ranting in your thread brother, but this stuff reminds me over and over of the people who buy buy airsoft parts and complain they don't fit their Olympic Arms carbines. You gear is squared away, and I know you will price is where it needs to be. God bless you for having more patience than me tonight. Every time a new product is talked about it is the price or delivery date that people start bitching about.
NN- It isn't your post in particular, but your comment is where these threads start to go downhill.
A handguard is a piece of aluminum. There is no reason to charge 300-400 dollars for one no matter who made it.
I do not skimp on parts for the rifles I have built. Having said that, I would never pay more than 200 for a handguard so I can see where he is coming from.
A handguard is a piece of aluminum. There is no reason to charge 300-400 dollars for one no matter who made it.
I do not skimp on parts for the rifles I have built. Having said that, I would never pay more than 200 for a handguard so I can see where he is coming from.
You are not paying for a just a piece of aluminum. Don't forget to tally on marketing, R&D, quality control ect..
Interesting perspective. Do you even have a clue what it takes to make a rail?
The cost of aluminum, CNC machines that have to be bought and paid for, employees, electricity, insurance, etc... etc...
A handguard is a piece of aluminum. There is no reason to charge 300-400 dollars for one no matter who made it.
I do not skimp on parts for the rifles I have built. Having said that, I would never pay more than 200 for a handguard so I can see where he is coming from.
Interesting perspective. Do you even have a clue what it takes to make a rail?
The cost of aluminum, CNC machines that have to be bought and paid for, employees, electricity, insurance, etc... etc...
Having worked for 1 firearms manufacturer for 3 years and currently working for another one, I think I have a pretty good idea of what goes into making parts.
After all that, it is still just a piece of aluminum. There are far more machining processes needed to machine a lower and those are only 90 bucks. Handguard prices are so high because people will pay it.
I agree with Stickman. I am steering clear of this thread any longer.
ZINCOGNITO
07-28-13, 00:05
Having worked for 1 firearms manufacturer for 3 years and currently working for another one, I think I have a pretty good idea of what goes into making parts.
After all that, it is still just a piece of aluminum. There are far more machining processes needed to machine a lower and those are only 90 bucks. Handguard prices are so high because people will pay it.
By that logic your rifles shouldn't cost more than $400. I mean, it's only aluminum and plastic. :rolleyes:
I'd like to learn more about the magnesium alloy that is being used for this product. I have gathered it is lighter than the aluminum offerings. How does it compare in the area of strength?
From what I have been able to find on the internet, it sounds like these magnesium alloys are a relatively newer technology and that significant obstacles had to be addressed before it became viable.
Obviously BCM has not told us exactly what material will be used to make this product, but what do others know about magnesium alloys in this type of application?
Having worked for 1 firearms manufacturer for 3 years and currently working for another one, I think I have a pretty good idea of what goes into making parts.
After all that, it is still just a piece of aluminum. There are far more machining processes needed to machine a lower and those are only 90 bucks. Handguard prices are so high because people will pay it.
seems like a terrible analogy to me, and a terrible way to introduce yourself to a couple of the most knowledgeable members of this forum (stick and Iraq have been contributing longer than you've worked for your "1 firearms manufacturer" whatever that means).
you're not just paying for the material, you're paying for the time, research, testing, and engineering that went into developing a NEW product, not some lower receiver that has been produced the same way for decades.
seems like a terrible analogy to me, and a terrible way to introduce yourself to a couple of the most knowledgeable members of this forum (stick and Iraq have been contributing longer than you've worked for your "1 firearms manufacturer" whatever that means).
you're not just paying for the material, you're paying for the time, research, testing, and engineering that went into developing a NEW product, not some lower receiver that has been produced the same way for decades.
Designing a handguard isn't like inventing the jet engine. It's a piece of metal, usually aluminum, that is machined into a shape. Does it really need to be 3-400 dollars? How many R&D hours could possibly justify a 400 dollar tube shaped piece of metal?
This is by no means a knock on BCM, I'm sure their product will be as great as all their other parts. My comments are about free float handguards in general. How revolutionary can a tube of metal be to justify a 3-400 price tag?
ETA: To those of you that work for BCM posting here and the OP, I'm sorry if my comments are derailing this thread about what will undoubtedly be another amazing BCM product. My comments were solely meant to let Stickman know that there are many folks, myself included, that think that handguard prices are a little insane for what they are and the poster's comment that I was defending wasn't completely out of line like Stickman would have us believe.
Designing a handguard isn't like inventing the jet engine. It's a piece of metal, usually aluminum, that is machined into a shape. Does it really need to be 3-400 dollars? How many R&D hours could possibly justify a 400 dollar tube shaped piece of metal?
This is by no means a knock on BCM, I'm sure their product will be as great as all their other parts. My comments are about free float handguards in general. How revolutionary can a tube of metal be to justify a 3-400 price tag?
ETA: To those of you that work for BCM posting here and the OP, I'm sorry if my comments are derailing this thread about what will undoubtedly be another amazing BCM product. My comments were solely meant to let Stickman know that there are many folks, myself included, that think that handguard prices are a little insane for what they are and the poster's comment that I was defending wasn't completely out of line like Stickman would have us believe.
Not hard at all. Let us know when your comparable product hits the market at 50% the cost and steals the show.
By that logic your rifles shouldn't cost more than $400. I mean, it's only aluminum and plastic. :rolleyes:
No, because it takes a ton more R&D to design a firearm with moving parts than it does to design a tube of metal.
If you guys want to continue paying absurd amounts of money for a tube, more power to you.
Out of respect for BCM, I'm done posting in this thread. I will say one thing before I go. I hope BCM can keep this product in the 200 dollar range too.
I agree with Stickman. I am steering clear of this thread any longer.
You are just saying that because of the stupid people. :p
Heaven forbid the mistake was ever made to put me in any position of power over here, I would simply shut down the accounts of the trolling ignorant people. Sure, that would cut back a bit on the total numbers, but this board was founded with a specific goal.
One of the very specific things I was told before this board was ever public was that it was going to be free from the behavior that is prevalent on another board. It was also going to be a professional resource to interface with the serious members of the firearm community.
Rockhopper
07-28-13, 01:28
This thread went downhill fast
richdkim77
07-28-13, 01:32
This thread went downhill fast
Always does when people start crying about prices. You gotta pay to play.
By that logic your rifles shouldn't cost more than $400. I mean, it's only aluminum and plastic. :rolleyes:
agreed. i mean the specs are out there for anyone than wants to manufacturer ar rifles. how come there aren't cheap ar rifles rifles? i mean a part is a part right? .......oh wait.
this aint amazon.com
Cincinnatus
07-28-13, 12:05
a tube of metal.
.
This alone shows no bounds to your ignorance on anything of which you speak. Please read more an post less, especially about things you have no clue about. :lazy2: :eek:
One of the very specific things I was told before this board was ever public was that it was going to be free from the behavior that is prevalent on another board. It was also going to be a professional resource to interface with the serious members of the firearm community.
Oops.
NeoNeanderthal
07-28-13, 12:28
Always does when people start crying about prices. You gotta pay to play.
I think i should apologize here as somehow i started this shit storm. All i meant to say was that BCM has a knack for taking expensive concepts/products and making them available for less (battle comp vs bcm comp). And that if they could do that with this rail (NSR vs bcm rail) they would DOMINATE the market. This was a response to a person who commented that they could not see any possible way for this rail to be revolutionary.
I wasn't trying to say a highly engineered rail isn't worth 300/350, or that bcm was ripping anyone off (i had/have no clue what price this rail will be at). I didn't mean for all the olympic arms, WW, Bushy, DPMS, Stag "your just paying for the name" bandwagon to come out of the woodwork and jump in the boat with me.
***With that being said. I do have confidence that whatever price BCM sets for this rail will be extremely fair. I cannot think of ONE example of an OVERPRICED piece of gear that BCM makes. My point was that it their price for the rail could be revolutionary, just as it is for their uppers. For F*cks sake they sell their upped for 450 bucks. You can buy an upper, bcg and blem lower making a great gun for 1k!****
I think i should apologize here as somehow i started this shit storm. All i meant to say was that BCM has a knack for taking expensive concepts/products and making them available for less (battle comp vs bcm comp). And that if they could do that with this rail (NSR vs bcm rail) they would DOMINATE the market. This was a response to a person who commented that they could not see any possible way for this rail to be revolutionary.
I wasn't trying to say a highly engineered rail isn't worth 300/350, or that bcm was ripping anyone off (i had/have no clue what price this rail will be at). I didn't mean for all the olympic arms, WW, Bushy, DPMS, Stag "your just paying for the name" bandwagon to come out of the woodwork and jump in the boat with me.
***With that being said. I do have confidence that whatever price BCM sets for this rail will be extremely fair. I cannot think of ONE example of an OVERPRICED piece of gear that BCM makes. My point was that it their price for the rail could be revolutionary, just as it is for their uppers. For F*cks sake they sell their upped for 450 bucks. You can buy an upper, bcg and blem lower making a great gun for 1k!****
So I come in to defend your statement about wanting a high quality rail for a decent price and you lump me into the Bushmaster and Olympic wanna be commando crowd? You know nothing about me, who I am or what I do for a living or my plans for the future. I was backing up your comment and you throw me under the bus? That's funny.
Never did I once say that buying a BCM product was "paying for the name". Actually, twice I have said that BCM makes great products. The ONLY point I was trying to make before these "Serious" members of the firearms biz jumped on me was that free float prices are out of control and it would be nice for BCM to make this tube at a reasonable price. You know, the exact same thing you said.
I'm in the wrong biz, apparently. I guess in order to be taken seriously around here, you either need to be a factory certified armorer (repair man) or a photographer.
***With that being said. I do have confidence that whatever price BCM sets for this rail will be extremely fair. I cannot think of ONE example of an OVERPRICED piece of gear that BCM makes. My point was that it their price for the rail could be revolutionary, just as it is for their uppers. For F*cks sake they sell their upped for 450 bucks. You can buy an upper, bcg and blem lower making a great gun for 1k!****
I have no doubt that BCM's pricing will be competitive AND fair. It's not our place to tell them what we think is fair. Quite frankly, it is ridiculous to me that We, the membership of M4C have allowed this thread to evolve as it has. You should know better and behave according to the standards of M4C. IMO, the mods have been extremely gracious in allowing this to go on as long as it has. We all know the rules here and if you don't, you should not type one single more syllable until you do. (Neo, this isn't directed at you specifically)
Regarding the rail, I'm keenly interested in it and looking forward to official release details. Unfortunately, people just want to talk out of their rear ends in the absence of facts just because they have time on their hands and think their opinions should direct how a company develops a product and how they should do business. I think BCM is keenly aware of what their target customer base wants and needs, as shown time and time again by what products they bring to market. They have high quality standards and do not produce poorly conceived products. Let's just cut out all this speculative, self-important BS and wait to see what they have actually come up with.
SeriousStudent
07-28-13, 13:18
Putting on the Mod hat now:
If anyone has some substantive technical discussion regarding the actual rail in question, go ahead and post it.
If you want to turn this into an accounting class on cost of goods sold, I'm positive I can help you with that. My private consulting rates do not come cheap, however.
Let's leave the accounting theories to another forum. BCM has a very well-deserved reputation for quality and affordability. I know that because I'm a customer.
If you want this thread to stay open, read and heed.
NeoNeanderthal
07-28-13, 13:22
I was backing up your comment and you throw me under the bus? That's funny.
The ONLY point I was trying to make before these "Serious" members of the firearms biz jumped on me was that free float prices are out of control and it would be nice for BCM to make this tube at a reasonable price. You know, the exact same thing you said.
Not trying to throw you under the bus but the thing is I never said that. The comment i made that started the shit storm was:
"Oh don't forget cost. If they can sell this rail for under $200 they will clean house. They made a comp that rivals the battlecomp for 40% less $."
I shouldn't have said that, obviously it is incredibly difficult to make a great rail for under 200$, it was jut an arbitrary number I threw out there because nsr keymods are going for 250 right now. And bcm always seems able to produce products as a lower price than novekse. I never said rail prices are out of control, or that companies are ripping us off on them. I just bought an NSR for 255 bucks and felt it was a great deal because i couldn't wait for the BCM rail.
NeoNeanderthal
07-28-13, 13:23
Putting on the Mod hat now:
If anyone has some substantive technical discussion regarding the actual rail in question, go ahead and post it.
If you want to turn this into an accounting class on cost of goods sold, I'm positive I can help you with that. My private consulting rates do not come cheap, however.
Let's leave the accounting theories to another forum. BCM has a very well-deserved reputation for quality and affordability. I know that because I'm a customer.
If you want this thread to stay open, read and heed.
Check
I just got done reading this whole thread and have come to the conclusion that some folks are NEVER satisfied. There are more whiney little girls in the gun community than anywhere else.
BCM makes great kit. If you don't like something about it, move on and find something else.
sinlessorrow
07-28-13, 14:03
I just got done reading this whole thread and have come to the conclusion that some folks are NEVER satisfied. There are more whiney little girls in the gun community than anywhere else.
BCM makes great kit. If you don't like something about it, move on and find something else.
I dont know, I can think of a few other things that get bigger sissies than gun forums.
BCM makes great kit. If you don't like something about it, move on and find something else.
Here here. Let's keep this thread about the subject at hand. Read SeriousStudent's comment and leave it at that.
-Jax
So I come in to defend your statement about wanting a high quality rail for a decent price and you lump me into the Bushmaster and Olympic wanna be commando crowd? You know nothing about me, who I am or what I do for a living or my plans for the future. I was backing up your comment and you throw me under the bus? That's funny.
Never did I once say that buying a BCM product was "paying for the name". Actually, twice I have said that BCM makes great products. The ONLY point I was trying to make before these "Serious" members of the firearms biz jumped on me was that free float prices are out of control and it would be nice for BCM to make this tube at a reasonable price. You know, the exact same thing you said.
You misunderstood NeoNanderthal (as did some others) - so your "defending him" is irrelevant to the conversation. Again, he used an arbitrary number to make a point about BCM's very competitive pricing structure. A lot of people seemed to have missed the point - he wasn't complaining about rails over $200.
I'm in the wrong biz, apparently. I guess in order to be taken seriously around here, you either need to be a factory certified armorer (repair man) or a photographer.
I'm going to risk an infraction here by not letting this comment slide, but someone needs to say something.
You better check your fire. IraqGunz and Stickman are much more than a "repair man" and a "photographer". Both are well known and respected in the industry. Both have also risked life and limb serving this country to protect the right of someone like yourself to talk shit on an Internet forum about them. On behalf of all of M4C ... PLEASE stop exercising this right.
You worked for a firearm manufacturer - we get it, we got the memo. Keep in mind that the business practices, pricing, and margins are very different between a large firearm manufacturer and the smaller ones.
You are one among millions involved in this industry. Does working in the industry demand some sort of respect? No. It will get you taken a bit more serious if you're kind, courteous, and add to the knowledge base of this forum.
Making personal insults against those who have earned the respect of the industry and its customers, simply because no one has responded positively to your complaining about current rail pricing structures, isn't going to get you that same level of respect. Simply proclaiming having had worked in the industry isn't going to magically make your opinion more valuable here either.
I'm sure I have some insults coming as well now - that's fine, doesn't bother me. What does bother me is insulting those who have paid their patriotic dues because of your inner ego issues.
Sorry for the continued thread drift.
Soooo this rail. Kudos to BCM for taking the time and initiative to advance the platform. :D
Rockhopper
07-29-13, 00:31
Soooo this rail. Kudos to BCM for taking the time and initiative to advance the platform. :D
Here here!
I haven't had the desire to try an NSR yet, but this rail is making me want to experiment with keymod. I've already converted to all of the other Gunfighter products so I'm sure this one will be awesome too. And as others have said, the more keymod rails, the more keymod accessories.
2. An exterior anti-rotational tab
4. FSB cut out versions (please)
These two and I'd buy one.
The BCM KM 13" rail weighs 7.7oz.
For a comparison, the NSR 13.5" weighs 7.9oz and the bbl nut is 3.1oz.
Pretty amazing if those BCM KM weight specs hold until final production
What's the significance of an exterior anti-rotational tab?
What's the significance of an exterior anti-rotational tab?
You don't have to have a special upper or drill a hole into your upper, like the NSR requires for anti rotation.
You don't have to have a special upper or drill a hole into your upper, like the NSR requires for anti rotation.
Ohh ok I see. Thanks.
It was mentioned on another site that the 13" rail weighs 7.5oz and the bbl nut weighs 1.5oz.
For a comparison, the NSR 13.5" weighs 7.9oz and the bbl nut is 3.1oz.
Pretty amazing if those BCM KM weight specs hold until final production
That's 7.7 oz for the BCM-KMR-13 rail, which is the complete weight (with all mounting items, including barrel nut).
The bare BCM-KMR-13 weighs 5.5oz and is long enough to cover the gas block of a rifle length gas tube (approximately 13").
The bare BCM-KM-10 (10" variant which will cover the gas block of a mid-length gas tube) weighs approximately 4.3oz for a total assembly weight of 6.5oz.
These are the only details we'll be releasing at this time.
Would it be too much to ask what length rails are planned? (9" specifically)
Thanks
Would it be too much to ask what length rails are planned? (9" specifically)
Thanks
I asked that earlier, also & did not get a response. That info might not yet be available.
Sent via Tapatalk
Phreakish, edited my post at the top of the page to reflect your correction.
That's 7.7 oz for the BCM-KMR-13 rail, which is the complete weight (with all mounting items, including barrel nut).
The bare BCM-KMR-13 weighs 5.5oz and is long enough to cover the gas block of a rifle length gas tube (approximately 13").
The bare BCM-KM-10 (10" variant which will cover the gas block of a mid-length gas tube) weighs approximately 4.3oz for a total assembly weight of 6.5oz.
These are the only details we'll be releasing at this time.
Holy crap, that's light!
skijunkie55
07-29-13, 16:27
Forgive me for not sifting through the last 8 pages of arguments... but when is the BCM press conference to officially announce this thing? :D
That's 7.7 oz for the BCM-KMR-13 rail, which is the complete weight (with all mounting items, including barrel nut).
The bare BCM-KMR-13 weighs 5.5oz and is long enough to cover the gas block of a rifle length gas tube (approximately 13").
The bare BCM-KM-10 (10" variant which will cover the gas block of a mid-length gas tube) weighs approximately 4.3oz for a total assembly weight of 6.5oz.
These are the only details we'll be releasing at this time.
PLEASE consider doing a .308 rail, preferably DPMS! The lightest rail I know of for a .308 AR is the Troy slick rail, and at 13.8" it's about 13oz including nut.
For people trying to get the lightest rail they can on a .308 AR, the Troy's the only real option we have at the moment. So if something comes along that's 5oz lighter than the current lightest rail, then pretty much there'll only be one acceptable choice if you're looking for a lightweight rail without giving up any features/functionality.
That's 7.7 oz for the BCM-KMR-13 rail, which is the complete weight (with all mounting items, including barrel nut).
The bare BCM-KMR-13 weighs 5.5oz and is long enough to cover the gas block of a rifle length gas tube (approximately 13").
The bare BCM-KM-10 (10" variant which will cover the gas block of a mid-length gas tube) weighs approximately 4.3oz for a total assembly weight of 6.5oz.
These are the only details we'll be releasing at this time.
:D nice
Ill be watching this one. That's light.
midSCarolina
07-30-13, 09:27
How do you say PWS and BCM make the Keymod rails, and some other people do as well, and fail to mention NOVESKE who were the first to use it on an AR platform? I shut it off after that.
The BCM rail looks good, but there aren't many ways to configure a Keymod so I think we will see a lot which look similar. The largest differences are going to be how wide a company goes and its attachment method.
I am way late on this but this is the first time I watched that vid and that is exactly what i did when he was going through that list. The entire time after that i was just like, I think you missed one man :mad: hah.
gesundheit
07-30-13, 12:38
Would it be too much to ask what length rails are planned? (9" specifically)
Thanks
Phreakish did report two rail lengths planned - 13 and 10. This is all the info they are willing to divulge right now.
I am sure they are busy with finalizing the product specs and am willing to wait for them to sort things out.
Based on the numbers alone, I am going to set aside a future build to use these rails!
Wow, that's really light.
I didn't realize the NSR was that light either. Been out of the rail game for too long.
I'm really liking how this BCM rail is sounding, and I love the fact rail manufacturers are focusing on reducing weight. It makes a lot of difference in how a carbine handles.
Wow, that's really light.
I didn't realize the NSR was that light either. Been out of the rail game for too long.
I'm really liking how this BCM rail is sounding, and I love the fact rail manufacturers are focusing on reducing weight. It makes a lot of difference in how a carbine handles.
I didnt think it was possible to get much lighter than what the NSR offered. When I got my 13.5 rail it to me it's mass was nearly imperceptible.
Crazy stuff technology lol
I'll wait for a mid-length cutout version ;) but it sure sounds good.
jerrysimons
07-30-13, 23:11
That's 7.7 oz for the BCM-KMR-13 rail, which is the complete weight (with all mounting items, including barrel nut).
The bare BCM-KMR-13 weighs 5.5oz and is long enough to cover the gas block of a rifle length gas tube (approximately 13").
The bare BCM-KM-10 (10" variant which will cover the gas block of a mid-length gas tube) weighs approximately 4.3oz for a total assembly weight of 6.5oz.
These are the only details we'll be releasing at this time.
:eek:
4.3oz! That is about 1.8oz lighter than what a 10" NSR rail only would be (6.15oz)!
Damn you BCM! I just permed my 14.5" Skinny Barrel 11" NSR combo. :mad:
For those of you on lightfighter there are a couple great pics of this rail in one of Pat Roger's threads.
I've gone on there since you posted.
Yeah ..... going to need more detail than "one of pat roger's thread"
I've gone on there since you posted.
Yeah ..... going to need more detail than "one of pat roger's thread"
Thread is titled #125, primary weapons sub-forum.
https://www.facebook.com/keymodsys
A bunch of Keymod pics by various manufactures.
jerrysimons
07-31-13, 11:04
https://www.facebook.com/keymodsys
A bunch of Keymod pics by various manufactures.
Aluminum/Magnesium, huh?
What sort of witchcraft are you up to BCM? ;)
New rail is very exciting.
Now, when will BCM make uppers and lowers from magnesium forgings?
New rail is very exciting.
Now, when will BCM make uppers and lowers from magnesium forgings?
Good thread on magnesium lowers (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=130190).
Good thread on magnesium lowers (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=130190).
MAG Tactical lowers are cast, not forged if I'm not mistaken.
I've gone on there since you posted.
Yeah ..... going to need more detail than "one of pat roger's thread"
Thread is titled #125, primary weapons sub-forum.
found it, thanks.
My bad, I figured the primary weapons section would be self-explanatory lol
My bad, I figured the primary weapons section would be self-explanatory lol
well I had tried that first but quickly realized "what the hell thread would it be?"
Especially given the title (sorry, just a pet peeve of mine when it comes to poorly titled threads lol)
From the pictures which have been posted so far it looks awesome. Can't wait to check one out in person.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/267356_565830016817086_740521242_n.jpg
Do want!
This or a URX4... my wallet hates me.
PatrioticDisorder
08-21-13, 13:04
Do want!
This or a URX4... my wallet hates me.
I'd imagine this will do everything the URX4 will do with less hassle to install, not to mention likely significantly cheaper.
I'd imagine this will do everything the URX4 will do with less hassle to install, not to mention likely significantly cheaper.
No doubt I'm sure. I just have a hard on for doing a KAC build. Suppose I should just buy a SR15 I guess.
TurretGunner
08-21-13, 13:53
Not BCM. Just the certain people who cry about the price of gear.
BCM used to be bushmaster prices. Thats how they became who they are.
Remember the old addage, why pay DPMS or Bushmaster or RRA prices when you can have BCM for the same or just a tad more.
50% + or more in price is not a tad.
If Fortis can make a Keymod FFL rail that starts around $160 and goes up to around $240, Then I'm sure BCM with its much larger scale can do it.
Perhaps I'm missing something about the design ........ wouldn't it be better for the smaller diameter to be rearward?
Or do accessories want to move forward under recoil?
the accessories will want to move forward under recoil because the rifle is jolting backwards with every shot.
Is this it?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/965707_547031835358295_177697775_o.jpg
Is this it?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/965707_547031835358295_177697775_o.jpg
Yes.
Will these be available from BCM as a complete pinned upper?
How'd you pull that out of a private photo album?
Yes.
Will these be available from BCM as a complete pinned upper?
Yes.
C4
Agreed! A lightweight, slim rail option for the .308 AR types would be great.
But Troy is not the only option. Both JP and Apex both have rails for 308 AR's, in either Armalite or DPMS patterns, and the Apex ones come in both low and high profile for the top rail.
PLEASE consider doing a .308 rail, preferably DPMS! The lightest rail I know of for a .308 AR is the Troy slick rail, and at 13.8" it's about 13oz including nut.
For people trying to get the lightest rail they can on a .308 AR, the Troy's the only real option we have at the moment. So if something comes along that's 5oz lighter than the current lightest rail, then pretty much there'll only be one acceptable choice if you're looking for a lightweight rail without giving up any features/functionality.
SilverBullet432
08-22-13, 20:59
i am excited about this new rail! for my next ar, its either this one, or the troy alpha rail.
Nightstalker865
08-22-13, 21:15
How'd you pull that out of a private photo album?
You can always take a screen shot and crop the image.
So who's got an idea of when this will be released?
Yes.
C4
Hell to the yes. :cool:
You can always take a screen shot and crop the image.
Ah, good point. Dumb question.
Ill go sit in the corner now
Yes.
C4
Grant when can we place an order?
Grant when can we place an order?
Good question. I am hoping soon. :p Whats the verdict Grant?
Cincinnatus
08-23-13, 02:00
I like the rotation limiting tabs.
As an aside on the EAG picture: I've seen nose-to-charging-handle shooting before but not cheek-to-charging-handle. :eek:
I know it's Pat Rogers, and thus am sure he knows what he's doing and it works for him, but it is unique, IMHO.
On the rail, I am interested to know what the protruding tab or knob is that is just below the top rail and close to the receiver.
Furthermore, the forward grip is probably a chopped down BCM VFG, but might it be a new shorter version of the BCM VFG, one that is the same length as the Magpul RFG?
This rail looks light as a ghost's pajamas and something that's going on my wish-list for darn sure.
I like the rotation limiting tabs.
As an aside on the EAG picture: I've seen nose-to-charging-handle shooting before but not cheek-to-charging-handle. :eek:
On the rail, I am interested to know what the protruding tab or knob is that is just below the top rail and close to the receiver.
Furthermore, the forward grip is probably a chopped down BCM VFG, but might it be a new shorter version of the BCM VFG, one that is the same length as the Magpul RFG?
This rail looks light as a ghost's pajamas and something that's going on my wish-list for darn sure.
Good eye, I didn't even see that. Obviously complete speculation but that tab looks integrated and part of the rail, and it looks like a keymod slot but going in the opposite direction compared to the rest of the rail...maybe BCM figured out how to torque down the rail to the barrel nut but via integrated keymod:meeting:, more likely I'm just speaking out of my rear though
Dos Cylindros
08-23-13, 09:55
I'm probably asking too much, but oh how I hope these use a standard GI barrel nut. From the profile of the rail, and what I can see of the mounting method it seems as if they have a proprietary barrel nut.
You are correct. It uses a proprietary nut. Sorry.
I'm probably asking too much, but oh how I hope these use a standard GI barrel nut. From the profile of the rail, and what I can see of the mounting method it seems as if they have a proprietary barrel nut.
You are correct. It uses a proprietary nut. Sorry.
That's possibly a good thing. Hopefully, it won't require timing with the gas tube.
That's possibly a good thing. Hopefully, it won't require timing with the gas tube.
I would doubt that. Timing of a GT results in over torquing (or excessive torque) on the barrel nut. I think that ship has sailed with current state of the art rail designers.
C4
I would doubt that. Timing of a GT results in over torquing (or excessive torque) on the barrel nut. I think that ship has sailed with current state of the art rail designers.
C4
Right. That's why I was saying that I hope it doesn't require that.
No timing required. You will be blown away on how simple this system is, but retaining extreme rigidity ;)
That's possibly a good thing. Hopefully, it won't require timing with the gas tube.
From the pictures which have been posted so far it looks awesome. Can't wait to check one out in person.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/267356_565830016817086_740521242_n.jpg
Probably most importantly, anyone notice what kind of truck they're using in the picture? :cool:
Here's some more pictures to help you decide for yourself what truck they're using....
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1150778_10151706609927737_1542559562_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/552713_10151706609632737_1478491402_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1002359_10151706609642737_205151208_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1151030_10151706609652737_1323751428_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1236176_10151706609712737_1279086613_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1174642_10151706609747737_2060037142_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236854_10151706609752737_1462943586_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599266_10151706609787737_583792008_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1236071_10151706609822737_1497903071_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1173647_10151706609832737_2073207071_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1236116_10151706609887737_1451367708_n.jpg
Tacoma FTMFW!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T6w5dtOsu3U/Ug1UotwrIKI/AAAAAAAAHLc/41exXdiA5dA/s1024/IMAG1518_1_1.jpg
Cool. Was just thinking about pulling the quad rail off my SPR upper in favor of a slick tube. Looking forward to how these end up in the final release.
TurretGunner
08-23-13, 11:47
A highly overpriced TACO? A truck with a plastic bed and underpowered?
Now if it was a HiLux, we might be talking. Good luck with that.
A highly overpriced TACO?
Haters gonna hate.
[QUOTE=Jer;1728300]Probably most importantly, anyone notice what kind of truck they're using in the picture? :cool:
Tacoma FTMFW!
im more surprised it had jersey tags than anything.lol
but im definitely looking forward to more on this rail
im curious of the barrel nut design and mounting
TurretGunner
08-23-13, 12:34
Haters gonna hate.
I forgot about the frames rusting out from under it. Good thing they are in the desert.
Don't get me wrong the new BCM rail is full of hotness but that 12.5 makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (sick tat as well :cool: [no homo lol])
ETA more rail porn
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1016116_566858506714237_236557840_n.jpg
skijunkie55
08-23-13, 14:45
So many pictures, so little info :help:
Don't get me wrong the new BCM rail is full of hotness but that 12.5 makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (sick tat as well :cool: [no homo lol])
ETA more rail porn
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1016116_566858506714237_236557840_n.jpg
Man, I really want this rail
Man, I really want this rail
Dam thing is going to make me have to build another rifle :cool:
jerrysimons
08-23-13, 17:03
I am all for lightweight (actually obsessed with it right now for my Noveske ultralight build), but I need some convincing a magnesium design is going to be rugged enough. Now I know it is BCM putting this thing out with some serious endorsements but still, magnesium? Am I missing something?
I am all for lightweight (actually obsessed with it right now for my Noveske ultralight build), but I need some convincing a magnesium design is going to be rugged enough. Now I know it is BCM putting this thing out with some serious endorsements but still, magnesium? Am I missing something?
just don't throw it into a fire hah
I am all for lightweight (actually obsessed with it right now for my Noveske ultralight build), but I need some convincing a magnesium design is going to be rugged enough. Now I know it is BCM putting this thing out with some serious endorsements but still, magnesium? Am I missing something?
Don't discount the fact that Eric Kincel is now running BCM's skunk works. I'd imagine that there has been a great deal of engineering and R& D poured into this project.
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236854_10151706609752737_1462943586_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599266_10151706609787737_583792008_n.jpg
I have to ask... Is that a Kevlar dress?
Looks like something a turret gunner might wear...? Or a modern Roman Legionary?
Disruptive Tactical Man Jammie - FDE*
*also available in Wolf
Dollars to donuts at some point in the future there will be a thread on it and it will be the next big thing.
YOu heard it hear first lol
Cincinnatus
08-24-13, 16:37
I have to ask... Is that a Kevlar dress?
Looks like something a turret gunner might wear...? Or a modern Roman Legionary?
Isn't it just a rain poncho under his gear? Not a cheap plastic one, but that's what it looks like.
signkutter
08-24-13, 18:32
I am all for lightweight (actually obsessed with it right now for my Noveske ultralight build), but I need some convincing a magnesium design is going to be rugged enough. Now I know it is BCM putting this thing out with some serious endorsements but still, magnesium? Am I missing something?
I suspect a mag alloy exists that will be durable enough to make a rail out of. Mag alloys are used in alot of everyday items that require strength and durability.
http://www.sports.org.tw/e/report/2010yearbook_subject/lightweight-03.jpg
Ya like mentioned, I doubt BCM would release a product that isn't durable and strong. It would just be a waste of their time.
Ya like mentioned, I doubt BCM would release a product that isn't durable and strong. It would just be a waste of their time.
Worse, it would be a waste of their reputation...
Rascal
"You can never be too rich, too good looking, or too well armed"
signkutter
08-24-13, 21:28
Worse, it would be a waste of their reputation...
Rascal
"You can never be too rich, too good looking, or too well armed"
That is my reasoning on the the matter of the rail. One thing anybody familiar with BCM products can attest to... they don't put out anything sub-par.
When the rail is released, no matter the material or mounting system, it will be a quality product.
Worse, it would be a waste of their reputation...
Rascal
"You can never be too rich, too good looking, or too well armed"
I like that quote. It's very true. Yeah I am highly interested in that rail, I am about to start the registration for an SBR and I was going to do the NSR, now I may just have to wait until I get some solid info on the BCM new offering, I wonder what lengths it will come in.
I just saw the info that was released, Hmmm. :)
SilentType
08-25-13, 07:24
This rail combined with a LW profile barrel has got to start changing the balance of a rifle in a pretty noticeable way.
I'm pretty excited about this rail system.
Nightstalker865
08-25-13, 08:35
Grant, hopefully you will be getting these as pinned uppers before long. It will be the perfect match for the lower I just ordered from you.
TurretGunner
08-25-13, 09:44
I suspect a mag alloy exists that will be durable enough to make a rail out of. Mag alloys are used in alot of everyday items that require strength and durability.
http://www.sports.org.tw/e/report/2010yearbook_subject/lightweight-03.jpg
Rails don't go through 1/10th of the forces, streses, and loads that any of those products do.
Using some new alloy and jacking the price up, is a waste of money, IMO. Unless it shaves off like 6-8oz, there is no value in it.
Goes right up there with CHF barrels, and all the idiot masses who eat that shit up like its some kind of superior method of barrel creation (when in fact, its the cheapest).
When normal rails start breaking from the abuse (DD, Noveske, Larue,ect), let me know. I have yet to see it.
JoshuaJJackson
08-25-13, 11:34
Rails don't go through 1/10th of the forces, streses, and loads that any of those products do.
Using some new alloy and jacking the price up, is a waste of money, IMO. Unless it shaves off like 6-8oz, there is no value in it.
Goes right up there with CHF barrels, and all the idiot masses who eat that shit up like its some kind of superior method of barrel creation (when in fact, its the cheapest).
When normal rails start breaking from the abuse (DD, Noveske, Larue,ect), let me know. I have yet to see it.
So your saying the new BCM rail would definetly be worth it no matter the price comsidering a larue 13.2" rail is 17.8oz and the BCM 13" has been mentioned here to possibly be 7.7oz? That's way over your arbitrary 6-8oz reduction.
sinlessorrow
08-25-13, 12:06
Don't get me wrong the new BCM rail is full of hotness but that 12.5 makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (sick tat as well :cool: [no homo lol])
ETA more rail porn
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1016116_566858506714237_236557840_n.jpg
I really like the rail and everything BCM makes is gold. That optic though.....worste $850 I ever spent.
signkutter
08-25-13, 12:08
=TurretGunner;1729706]Rails don't go through 1/10th of the forces, streses, and loads that any of those products do.
Using some new alloy and jacking the price up, is a waste of money, IMO. Unless it shaves off like 6-8oz, there is no value in it.
My point was that an alloy exists that will easily serve as a material to manufacture a durable rail from. The poster I quoted expressed concerns that a magnesium alloy would lack durability.
Goes right up there with CHF barrels, and all the idiot masses who eat that shit up like its some kind of superior method of barrel creation (when in fact, its the cheapest).
The process reportedly creates a more durable barrel but really is over-rated IMO. A quality honed button rifled barrel is as accurate as any CHF barrel from what I have seen. As far as "the masses" are concerned.. its the same mentality as paying twice the price for a rollmark ... or worshiping a weapon platform.
Anyhow different subjects for a different thread.... lets try to stay on topic
When normal rails start breaking from the abuse (DD, Noveske, Larue,ect), let me know. I have yet to see it.
I dont think this has been a problem, or will be.
signkutter
08-25-13, 12:15
I really like the rail and everything BCM makes is gold. That optic though.....worste $850 I ever spent.
......
Knyghtmare
08-25-13, 12:28
I really like the rail and everything BCM makes is gold. That optic though.....worste $850 I ever spent.
Why, out of curiosity? I have been considering one.
Why, out of curiosity? I have been considering one.
i really like mine, better field of view than a t1, better battery life than an eotech. has a solid mount, uses AA batteries, and has a 1.75 moa dot
Freedoooom
08-25-13, 13:14
Why, out of curiosity? I have been considering one.
Has reflection problems, whether it be seeing your own face or seeing 2 dots.
thopkins22
08-25-13, 13:38
Using some new alloy and jacking the price up, is a waste of money, IMO. Unless it shaves off like 6-8oz, there is no value in it.
Magnesium is very, very light.
Pure aluminum weighs 2712 kg per cubic meter.
6061 aluminum weighs 2720 kg per cubic meter.
7075 aluminum weighs 2800 kg per cubic meter.
Pure magnesium weighs 1738 kg per cubic meter.
Magnesium is roughly thirty six percent lighter by volume than aluminum. 473 degrees celsius to ignite Mg ribbon...much higher for larger samples. In fact it has been used in high performance engines for a long time.
I'm not really on the keymod bandwagon, but Mg alloys are a damn good choice for rails.
The process reportedly creates a more durable barrel but really is over-rated IMO.
Just a note, it's not "reportedly." The science is there, hammer forged barrels are in fact more durable. It's not up for debate...forging has been proven to provide the benefits claimed. The fact that the barrels are produced faster, more consistently, and more inexpensively(if you don't count the cost of the forge,) are icing on the cake. What can be debated is whether or not it matters to 99% of shooters...of course it probably does not.
sinlessorrow
08-25-13, 13:41
Why, out of curiosity? I have been considering one.
Why, out of curiosity? I have been considering one.
Just a missed opportunity with some bad fleas.
First is the price. Its $450 more than a PRO but offers the same battery life and a .25moa smaller dot.
The solar panel does not power the optic if the battery is dead, it only works if the battery dies while in the sun. This was a huge missed opportunity and really came out with me questioning why is it even there if it only works when you have a good battery.
There is a horrible reflection from the diode set in the optic that completely blocks your target and minimizes the dot enough that you cannot see it.
Its heavier than other optics.
The only pros imo was the large FOV and the Bobro mount.
......
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