View Full Version : H&K having money problems.
Mauser KAR98K
07-20-13, 20:03
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/18/heckler-koch-germany-dire-financial-straits/
It appears though that HK USA is "okay."
I am actually shocked to hear of a firearms company NOT making money right now. Look at IWI (IMI) launching the Tavor here in the US with their own factory.
Granted some of what H&K makes and sells are a bit a niche market, they could have done a lot by going towards the self-defense market and created weapons with their reliability and "good-guys carry us" reputation ten years ago.
I understand the import and export laws, and also the fact they have been hosed twice by our own government, but still...
BrigandTwoFour
07-20-13, 20:11
H&K also does a shitty job of appealing to the US non-agency market. They make a lot of stuff that people would buy if they would actually bother to make a civilian legal version of it.
Europe is also a terrible market for a company like H&K. The only "legitimate" firearms people own are for hunting or the rare handgun (and only one handgun, from what I can find).
If you are a European based gunmaker, and you are not trying to appeal to civilian sales for significant portion of your income, then you are pretty much dependent on government sales and will live or die by those contracts.
Well good for them. I think they (and many Euro gun makers) made a lot of mistakes by ignoring the US civilian gun market (the largest in the world).
My read is Glock is the only Euro company that actually supported the US civilian market and has done quite well.
Unfortunately SIG quality and refinement that was present on all of their older models went to shit when they started mass producing their firearms to the civilian populous in recent years.
Glock rushed their Gen4 models when they should have stuck with the tried and true models or waited for more testing before pushing the new Gen4 onto the market.
I'm trying to think but if I recall Beretta dropped their Brigadier Elite models due to expense of manufacturing and that was probably what I would consider the pinnicle of their product development. It's a shame but I do love mine.
All of my Hk pistols have all been really nice minus the crappy plastic toy-like triggers they use. I do like my older gen Glocks and SIG P225 is about as sweet as it gets for a single stack. How these companies mass produce though will make or break them and I think Hk has decided to keep production tolerances high and that unfortunately cuts down on volume.
BrigandTwoFour
07-20-13, 20:31
Unfortunately SIG quality and refinement that was present on all of their older models went to shit when they started mass producing their firearms to the civilian populous in recent years.
Glock rushed their Gen4 models when they should have stuck with the tried and true models or waited for more testing before pushing the new Gen4 onto the market.
I'm trying to think but if I recall Beretta dropped their Brigadier Elite models due to expense of manufacturing and that was probably what I would consider the pinnicle of their product development. It's a shame but I do love mine.
All of my Hk pistols have all been really nice minus the crappy plastic toy-like triggers they use. I do like my older gen Glocks and SIG P225 is about as sweet as it gets for a single stack. How these companies mass produce though will make or break them and I think Hk has decided to keep production tolerances high and that unfortunately cuts down on volume.
But is that quality slide strictly because of trying to produce more pistols? There are probably other confounding factors.
Plenty of other companies have managed to maintain quality levels on all-metal guns (Beretta, CZ, etc). If Sig had a good and well-marketed entry into the polymer market, they would probably have good sales numbers to prop up their metal guns sales.
I think its got less to do with trying to push out more pistols and more to do with some bad decisions made along the way.
H&K also does a shitty job of appealing to the US non-agency market. They make a lot of stuff that people would buy if they would actually bother to make a civilian legal version of it.
Europe is also a terrible market for a company like H&K. The only "legitimate" firearms people own are for hunting or the rare handgun (and only one handgun, from what I can find).
If you are a European based gunmaker, and you are not trying to appeal to civilian sales for significant portion of your income, then you are pretty much dependent on government sales and will live or die by those contracts.
Well good for them. I think they (and many Euro gun makers) made a lot of mistakes by ignoring the US civilian gun market (the largest in the world).
My read is Glock is the only Euro company that actually supported the US civilian market and has done quite well.
Sorry but your comments are complete B.S.
How many Glock rifles or carbines are sold in the U.S.? Oh yeah, that's right they don't make any! Which means they are not subject to the same asinine German military style firearm export laws like H&K is subject to. Do you really think H&K specifically ignores the largest gun market in the world or purposely dumb down their rifles until they are almost retarded (remember the SL8, the civie version of the G36) because they just feel like it??? Try and do a little more reading next time before posting inaccuracies about H&K.
Sorry but your comments are complete B.S.
How many Glock rifles or carbines are sold in the U.S.? Oh yeah, that's right they don't make any! Which means they are not subject to the same asinine German military style firearm export laws like H&K is subject to. Do you really think H&K specifically ignores the largest gun market in the world or purposely dumb down their rifles until they are almost retarded (remember the SL8, the civie version of the G36) because they just feel like it??? Try and do a little more reading next time before posting inaccuracies about H&K.
You made bro? And yes I do believe Hk is not placing the civilian sector as their primary target market. And it obviously works because I have bought many of them for suppressor hosts.
"Hk. Because you suck. And we hate you"
LoL
MountainRaven
07-20-13, 21:04
Sorry but your comments are complete B.S.
How many Glock rifles or carbines are sold in the U.S.? Oh yeah, that's right they don't make any! Which means they are not subject to the same asinine German military style firearm export laws like H&K is subject to. Do you really think H&K specifically ignores the largest gun market in the world or purposely dumb down their rifles until they are almost retarded (remember the SL8, the civie version of the G36) because they just feel like it??? Try and do a little more reading next time before posting inaccuracies about H&K.
Think isn't the right word. Know is.
H&K could have turned lemons into lemonade when they built the plant to manufacture the defunct XM8. They chose not to.
IWI and Beretta have invested hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars into tooling up and building firearms - defensive carbines in particular - in the US. (This is partially mitigated for Beretta by the fact that their plant was paid for long ago by their M9 pistol contracts.)
FNH has probably dropped many millions into their own US subsidy - which now builds not only parts for the SCAR but also their own domestic (US) production handguns and Winchester rifles.
It wasn't that long ago that H&K started shipping the HK45C to their distributors... just after SHOT Show... and the H&K USA reps at SHOT had no idea when the handguns were even going to show up in the US (apparently H&K in Germany didn't think it was important to inform their opposite numbers in the US of when it was that they not only were going to, but indeed already had, shipped a highly desired firearm... whose chief market was virtually guaranteed from the word go to be American consumers).
The fact is H&K simply is not interested in the US market. Or they lack sufficient motivation (their own failing and fault) to do anything about it.
If H&K really cared, they would open a US factory to built the HK416 and G36 (and maybe even roller-block 9mm carbines and pistols). Again, they had the perfect opportunity when they built the plant to manufacture the XM8 and they failed to take advantage of it.
Nor have they responded to America's craze for single-stack little carry guns. Nor any other desire that American shooters have for their handguns - no light LEM trigger P30Ls for the three-gun crowd, no minor adjustments to the HK45's frame contours based on complaints from the very Americans who helped them design it, no tritium night sights in their handguns, &c., &c., &c.
ETA: As for the subject at hand....
On the one hand, I like H&K's stuff and the fact that they have QC/QA second to none. (And the first real centerfire firearms I ever got to shoot were the USP45 and HK91.)
On the other hand, it's their own damned fault and I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who goes broke (for the second time in, what, two decades?) because they ignored my cries (and the cries of many other American shooters) of, "Shut up and take my money!"
I have a hard time even imagining how f___ed up they must be to be doing so poorly with contracts for the M27, HK416N, plus the various SOF contracts with the DOD, Poland, Germany, France, &c.
Think isn't the right word. Know is.
H&K could have turned lemons into lemonade when they built the plant to manufacture the defunct XM8. They chose not to.
IWI and Beretta have invested hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars into tooling up and building firearms - defensive carbines in particular - in the US. (This is partially mitigated for Beretta by the fact that their plant was paid for long ago by their M9 pistol contracts.)
FNH has probably dropped many millions into their own US subsidy - which now builds not only parts for the SCAR but also their own domestic (US) production handguns and Winchester rifles.
It wasn't that long ago that H&K started shipping the HK45C to their distributors... just after SHOT Show... and the H&K USA reps at SHOT had no idea when the handguns were even going to show up in the US (apparently H&K in Germany didn't think it was important to inform their opposite numbers in the US of when it was that they not only were going to, but indeed already had, shipped a highly desired firearm... whose chief market was virtually guaranteed from the word go to be American consumers).
The fact is H&K simply is not interested in the US market. Or they lack sufficient motivation (their own failing and fault) to do anything about it.
If H&K really cared, they would open a US factory to built the HK416 and G36 (and maybe even roller-block 9mm carbines and pistols). Again, they had the perfect opportunity when they built the plant to manufacture the XM8 and they failed to take advantage of it.
Nor have they responded to America's craze for single-stack little carry guns. Nor any other desire that American shooters have for their handguns - no light LEM trigger P30Ls for the three-gun crowd, no minor adjustments to the HK45's frame contours based on complaints from the very Americans who helped them design it, no tritium night sights in their handguns, &c., &c., &c.
ETA: As for the subject at hand....
On the one hand, I like H&K's stuff and the fact that they have QC/QA second to none. (And the first real centerfire firearms I ever got to shoot were the USP45 and HK91.)
On the other hand, it's their own damned fault and I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who goes broke (for the second time in, what, two decades?) because they ignored my cries (and the cries of many other American shooters) of, "Shut up and take my money!"
I have a hard time even imagining how f___ed up they must be to be doing so poorly with contracts for the M27, HK416N, plus the various SOF contracts with the DOD, Poland, Germany, France, &c.
Yep. We're H&K, you suck and we hate you. Or something like that.
MountainRaven
07-20-13, 21:27
Yep. We're H&K, you suck and we hate you. Or something like that.
I bet that if H&K built the HK416 in the US it would do a lot to change the Marines' arithmetic about the cost of adopting the M27 service-wide as a replacement for some (or all) M4s and M16A4s. (Not necessarily enough to make a difference.)
They might have even gotten a real coup and had the Army pick up M27s instead of M4A1 MWSs for their grunts.
Everyone else is having QA/QC issues.
Whatever the reason for their cash woes it's not due to lack of quality or demand.
Moving manufacturing to the US would have helped despite the pinheadish comments about "how the German made guns are better..." drivel.
The HK416/MR556 should have been made here - perhaps as well as in Deutschland. The MR is sold in EUrope as well so that might be investment heavy. It's not so easy to ship manufacturing out of your nation if you possess a soul and a modicum of patriotism. Just look to Detroit (CAFTA, NAFTA, GATT, WTO, FTAA, ...) and ask if shipping manufacturing out of your nation makes any damned sense.
That said, IM/EX laws dictate that at a minimum HK may require a partner or purchase an existing company to manufacture US market guns in the US.
That is the approach I would take (as well as take input from the US for triggers and sights).
Just my take.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I'm appreciative that HK took the effort to offer a civie 416 in a non neutered state and I really, really wanted to like the MR556 but it simply was NOT a semi auto version of the 416.
When introduced it was twice the cost of a high quality AR and when prices jumped again to almost three times the cost of a high quality AR I sold mine and haven't had the desire to replace it.
I also sold my SL8/ G36K SBR that cost quite a bit to get done in an acceptable platform. Magazine costs and LOP issues from the required stock block made sighting the rifle less than optimum with factory iron or carry handle optic sights. Expensive mags were another issue.
In fact the only modern HK rifle I have still is my USC / UMP conversion because it doesn't have the LOP issues and makes a practical semi auto, especially for a suppressed .45 carbine.
Steyr made the effort to have a AUG A3 produced domestically. FN has made semi auto civilian versions of many of their rifles. IWI and Swisss SIG even managed to get the Tavor and 551 553 firearms to market.
I'm a huge fan of HK firearms but it seems like they just can't seem to get it together. Nobody is going to buy a MR556 when they can get a SCAR for less. It's a shame too, I'd really love a semi auto version of the 416 that is correct from the factory.
BrigandTwoFour
07-20-13, 22:13
Steyr made the effort to have a AUG A3 produced domestically. FN has made semi auto civilian versions of many of their rifles. IWI and Swisss SIG even managed to get the Tavor and 551 553 firearms to market.
I'm a huge fan of HK firearms but it seems like they just can't seem to get it together. Nobody is going to buy a MR556 when they can get a SCAR for less. It's a shame too, I'd really love a semi auto version of the 416 that is correct from the factory.
This is exactly what I was talking about. It's not like the market isn't there, they just don't want to take advantage of it.
This is exactly what I was talking about. It's not like the market isn't there, they just don't want to take advantage of it.
What would it COST to produce a new factory here; that is THE question, obviously.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
What would it COST to produce a new factory here; that is THE question, obviously.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Actually partnering up with somebody like Steyr did with Sabre would probably be more cost effective as you noted earlier.
JP Sauer and Colt got together once in the past to make Drillings.
Think isn't the right word. Know is.
H&K could have turned lemons into lemonade when they built the plant to manufacture the defunct XM8. They chose not to.
.
Not true. This was discussed in depth at HKPro.com The XM8's design made it almost child's play to turn it into a full-auto weapon. Germany's laws will not allow HK to export the same machinery they used to produce the XM8 as it was, meaning they'd first have to redesign the XM8 to allow for a semi-auto-only configuration, then produce machinery specifically for making a semi-auto XM8, and then get it over to the US. Due to the amount of redesigning it would take, as well as export laws to produce it on current German machinery, it didn't make any sense.
Most people who say HK has no interest in the civilian market mistake German laws and logistics issues for stubbornness.
Actually partnering up with somebody like Steyr did with Sabre would probably be more cost effective as you noted earlier.
JP Sauer and Colt got together once in the past to make Drillings.
The difference is that HK has never made a weapon primarily designed for civilians. Every weapon they design is for competition for military and LE contracts. That means they're not very marketable to the "average" gun owner because they're military-grade (and priced accordingly) through and through. They have no civilian marketing focus.
Their income comes specifically from military contracts. So, to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to produce or export something domestically that most people can't afford in the first place makes zero sense for them. Case in point, the special run of FDE HK45's that H&K did for HKPro.com - H&K would not accept an custom order of any less than 250 guns (that's ~$250,000, for those who aren't familiar). The reps literally said it would not be profitable for them to do smaller quantities.
It's not like SIG or FN where if their gun doesn't perform, they just make a version 2.0 of it. It's not financially viable due to their structure. And don't even mention Germany's crazy laws that make it hard for them to do business with civilians.
Sorry but your comments are complete B.S.
How many Glock rifles or carbines are sold in the U.S.?
Ok, let's take rifles out of that equation. Explain the success of Glock pistols in the civilian market over all other Euro competitors. Glock also made a full court press to go for the US LEO market. Not so much with Sig or H&K.
they're military-grade (and priced accordingly) through and through.They're priced higher than military-grade :D
Ok, let's take rifles out of that equation. Explain the success of Glock pistols in the civilian market over all other Euro competitors. Glock also made a full court press to go for the US LEO market. Not so much with Sig or H&K.
Cost. Glock only produces pistols. All calibers' magazines are interchangeable. This reduces cost and R&D.
A Glock 17 with three magazines is less than $600. A USP, by comparison, is $900+ and additional magazines are $50. USP magazines are not interchangeable with USP Compact magazines, they use different recoil assemblies, etc.
Further, Glock built a product and marketed it. HK only builds ls weapons to meet contracts. Once that contract is done, they work on meeting the next contract.
Completely different business models.
BrigandTwoFour
07-21-13, 10:56
Cost. Glock only produces pistols. All calibers' magazines are interchangeable. This reduces cost and R&D.
A Glock 17 with three magazines is less than $600. A USP, by comparison, is $900+ and additional magazines are $50. USP magazines are not interchangeable with USP Compact magazines, they use different recoil assemblies, etc.
Further, Glock built a product and marketed it. HK only builds ls weapons to meet contracts. Once that contract is done, they work on meeting the next contract.
Completely different business models.
Well, whose fault is that?
Look, I'm not ragging on H&K's products, they are a fantastic manufacturer. But, in the end, if you base your business model on producing military arms for government contracts, you shouldn't be surprised when your bottom line starts drying up in times of government spending restraint. The war on terror has been a boon to the firearms industry in a lot of ways, but everyone knew it wouldn't last forever. The 2008 economic downturn should have been a first hint that they needed to start looking into new product lines and sources of easy revenue.
Teaming up with someone established stateside already is one way to do that. Building factories in CONUS is another. Finding ways to reduce costs of products to compete with the likes of Glock and Smith and Wesson is another. The P30 is a fantastic pistol, but from a cost-benefit standpoint, does it do anything THAT much better than the Glock/M&P/PPQ that have much lower price tags? Not to mention the differences in aftermarket support, spare parts location, and customer service angles.
The fact that H&K is set up with a different business model is irrelevant. Their business model is completely within their control, and they chose not to modernize it when everyone else did.
Completely different business models.
Then it sounds like they have a bad business model. And that is why they are having problems. In business you adapt to changing market conditions or you die.
You cannot ignore the worlds largest small arms market (the US), especially if your company is in the small arms business. Not to mention the US market is becoming increasingly savvy and demanding higher quality equipment. The days of offering your MILSPEC equipment to one group of buyers and offering your cheap shit to everyone else is pretty much at an end. I am not sure if Sig has figured it out yet either.
Companies like Toyota build cars and trucks in the US because it is cheaper to do it this way. H&K could take a lesson. If they cannot import their expensive products then they should open a factory in the US and move whole hog into offering quality products to the US civilian and LEO market.
MountainRaven
07-21-13, 12:38
Not true. This was discussed in depth at HKPro.com The XM8's design made it almost child's play to turn it into a full-auto weapon. Germany's laws will not allow HK to export the same machinery they used to produce the XM8 as it was, meaning they'd first have to redesign the XM8 to allow for a semi-auto-only configuration, then produce machinery specifically for making a semi-auto XM8, and then get it over to the US. Due to the amount of redesigning it would take, as well as export laws to produce it on current German machinery, it didn't make any sense.
Most people who say HK has no interest in the civilian market mistake German laws and logistics issues for stubbornness.
Nevermind the XM8. They could have made anything in that plant and they could have had the machinery built in the US (or Japan or...). They could have made HK45s, P30s, magazines for both, a little single-stack, polymer-frame 380 or 9mm (or both - imagine a polymer-frame P7!). They could have made the HK416 or an SL8 variant that more closely resembles the G36 (or just a good, old-fashioned SAO G36). They could have made the USC/UMP (whose only market is going to be the US when it's in 45, anyway) and roller-block 9mms, 40s, and 10mms....
And yet they chose not to. While SiG found ways around both Swiss and German export laws to get us 551s and 553s.
If they can find the capital and remove their collective cranium from their collective rectum, they can still choose to. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
Obviously, they need to make a US-made AK. But noooooooooo! ;)
MountainRaven
07-21-13, 13:21
Obviously, they need to make a US-made AK. But noooooooooo! ;)
They can call it an... HK-47.
:cool:
yeee-ah!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/59/HK-47-posing.jpg/250px-HK-47-posing.jpg
HK is well known for making excellent fire arms and questionable (some would say poor...) business decisions. Some of those decisions appear to be biting them in the ass.
Most people who say HK has no interest in the civilian market mistake German laws and logistics issues for stubbornness.
I'm actually well aware of those laws. SIG has it even worse which is why they had to partner with JP Sauer in Germany (Sis/Sauer) in order to sell their handguns to the US given their strict neutrality laws.
If you think HK had difficulty over the years with the 41/91 series (and they had even bigger problems with the civie versions of the G3 domestically) as a rifle for export you should see what SIG had to go through with the 550/551 series.
This is why SIG established a US base of operation and production. Unfortunately they started making shit.
Nevermind the XM8. They could have made anything in that plant and they could have had the machinery built in the US (or Japan or...). They could have made HK45s, P30s, magazines for both, a little single-stack, polymer-frame 380 or 9mm (or both - imagine a polymer-frame P7!). They could have made the HK416 or an SL8 variant that more closely resembles the G36 (or just a good, old-fashioned SAO G36). They could have made the USC/UMP (whose only market is going to be the US when it's in 45, anyway) and roller-block 9mms, 40s, and 10mms....
And yet they chose not to. While SiG found ways around both Swiss and German export laws to get us 551s and 553s.
If they can find the capital and remove their collective cranium from their collective rectum, they can still choose to. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
I think you need to do some research about HK, because all of your points are off.
HK DOES make the ALL of the pistols you mentioned above, minus the P7, in the US. The P7 CANNOT have a polymer frame due to the fixed barrel. The smaller caliber handguns don't sell enough to justify the cost whatsoever. It doesn't make sense for them to bring manufacturing of .380's over here because the entire market for smaller calibers is focused on cost and size. Who's going to pay $6-700 for a HK when you can get a Walther for $399? HK only makes military-grade weaponry - subcompact buyers are n't going to spend that kind of money on one.
HK DOES make the civilian-version of the 416 domestically.
The only valid point your bought up was the that the G36 isn't made as a G36, yet the reason for that is because no one was interested in buying an SL8, even when they were $1200. An SL8 IS a semi-auto G36 - mechanically it's identical. It didn't make sense for HK to spend $500k+ to produce an aesthetic clone of the G36 when they could produce a mechanically identical version with a more traditional stock in Germany.
Also, Sig is greatly commercialized - their product lines are so expansive that they can absorb costs with exporting production. The downside is that their QC and reputation is now a joke. It's simply a different business model.
The irony here is that no one on this board considers any of the new offerings from Sig as quality or hard-use weapons.
I'm not defending H&K, I'm just saying no one seems to understand what's actually going on.
Also, the original linked article is very speculative. If you look at the last several decades, H&K has ALWAYS been in "financial trouble." They've posted a net loss while expanding the company. It's not uncommon.
The article only states that debts outweigh their holdings-" - that doesn't mean much at all and could change with one simple contract. Also notice that the article doesn't state the net worth of H&K. I suspect it's just an attempt to get some traffic on an otherwise unimportant article.
MountainRaven
07-21-13, 15:48
HK DOES make the ALL of the pistols you mentioned above, minus the P7, in the US.
Pretty sure the only pistol they make in the US is the HK45 and HK45C.
Which leaves the P30, P2000, Mk23, USP, USPc, USP45....
The P7 CANNOT have a polymer frame due to the fixed barrel.
More likely it cannot have a polymer frame because of the gas-delayed blowback operating system.
Then you take a squeeze-cocking mechanism and stick it in a traditional Browning short-recoil operated single-stack auto. It ain't rocket science.
The smaller caliber handguns don't sell enough to justify the cost whatsoever. It doesn't make sense for them to bring manufacturing of .380's over here because the entire market for smaller calibers is focused on cost and size. Who's going to pay $6-700 for a HK when you can get a Walther for $399? HK only makes military-grade weaponry - subcompact buyers are n't going to spend that kind of money on one.
People pay $600-700 for Kahr's little 380. For Kimber's 380. For SiG's 380.
And the P2000SK is totally standard issue for militaries the world-over, right?
HK DOES make the civilian-version of the 416 domestically.
No, they make a short-bus version of the HK416.
The only valid point your bought up was the that the G36 isn't made as a G36, yet the reason for that is because no one was interested in buying an SL8, even when they were $1200. An SL8 IS a semi-auto G36 - mechanically it's identical. It didn't make sense for HK to spend $500k+ to produce an aesthetic clone of the G36 when they could produce a mechanically identical version with a more traditional stock in Germany.
No one was (or is) interested in buying the SL8 because it wasn't (and isn't) a G36! If they had looked like G36s, they would have sold like hot cakes! They would still sell like hot cakes!
FFS, they don't even import them into this country with a double-stack magazine well, something they do everywhere else. Including Canada.
Hell, we're still waiting to see the much rumored striker-fired pistol they have supposedly been working on.
What would it COST to produce a new factory here; that is THE question, obviously.
I think the question is "is it SMART to build a firearms factory in the US with its current political climate?"
I may be wrong about this, but HK could have produced the 416 (not the neutered MR556) at the plant in Georgia and then the issues with the KriegsWaffenKontrollGesetz issues would have been a non-issue.
I know we have discussed this here previously and that was the consensus. This may well have opened the doors for other HK models.
As I recall back in the day when the HK rifles were imported they were pretty big sellers. A new HK93 in 1986 would cost you around 650.00.
I think the question is "is it SMART to build a firearms factory in the US with its current political climate?"
The answer it "YES." Because America will always have an appetite for guns of some type. Even if they are neutered and dumbed down there will still be demand.
This is what makes the anti's nuts. Americans believe they have a right to defend themselves and use guns in other shooting sports. So, they attack guns from every side - anti-hunting laws, range limitations, no CCW, SYG, everything. Despite everything they have tried over the years, gun sales remain reliably robust.
Alpha Sierra
07-21-13, 19:22
My read is Glock is the only Euro company that actually supported the US civilian market and has done quite well.
Ah, no, it is not the only one. Beretta Holdings overshadows Glock in US civilian sales by a gigantic margin.
Let's see......Glock pistols vs.....Beretta semi automatic shotguns, Beretta over/under shotguns, Beretta rifles, Beretta handguns, Sako rifles, Tikka rifles, Benelli semi automatic shotguns, Benelli pump shotguns, Benelli rifles, Franchi semi automatic shotguns, Franchi over/under shotguns, Franchi side by side shotguns, Burris Optics, Stoeger semi auto, pump, and side by side shotguns, Stoeger, air guns, and on, and on, and on.
BrigandTwoFour
07-21-13, 20:07
Ah, no, it is not the only one. Beretta Holdings overshadows Glock in US civilian sales by a gigantic margin.
Let's see......Glock pistols vs.....Beretta semi automatic shotguns, Beretta over/under shotguns, Beretta rifles, Beretta handguns, Sako rifles, Tikka rifles, Benelli semi automatic shotguns, Benelli pump shotguns, Benelli rifles, Franchi semi automatic shotguns, Franchi over/under shotguns, Franchi side by side shotguns, Burris Optics, Stoeger semi auto, pump, and side by side shotguns, Stoeger, air guns, and on, and on, and on.
Not to mention FNH.
FN semi auto shotguns, rifles, and handguns. FN bolt action rifles.
And then FN also runs Browning and Winchester.
FN also uses their domestic manufacturing centers to support many other manufacturers with various products, like hammer forged barrels.
If HK had made better business decisions, they could be partaking in this as well.
The answer it "YES." Because America will always have an appetite for guns of some type. Even if they are neutered and dumbed down there will still be demand.
This is what makes the anti's nuts. Americans believe they have a right to defend themselves and use guns in other shooting sports. So, they attack guns from every side - anti-hunting laws, range limitations, no CCW, SYG, everything. Despite everything they have tried over the years, gun sales remain reliably robust.
Uh huh. The changing political landscape makes me think no. Beretta has had ongoing problems since 1994, now even worse. Magpul, Colt, Remington, Stag....long list. Where would HK build their factory? All it takes is a liberal anti-gun president with a long pair of coattails and all of a sudden state legislatures all over the country change their makeup and start passing anti-gun legislation. I sure as hell would not want to build a gun factory in the US these days, especially if it was for a company that was as clueless about the American gun market as HK or Walther appear to be.
Alpha Sierra
07-21-13, 22:34
Beretta has had ongoing problems since 1994, now even worse.
What kind of problems?
Outside of government contracts, handguns are a sideshow, literally, for Beretta compared to their civilian shotgun sales.
The XM8's design made it almost child's play to turn it into a full-auto weapon.
Cause it's so hard to turn other self loading rifle into automatics?
Germany's laws will not allow HK to export the same machinery they used to produce the XM8 as it was, meaning they'd first have to redesign the XM8 to allow for a semi-auto-only configuration, then produce machinery specifically for making a semi-auto XM8, and then get it over to the US.
You mean like they did for the roller lock guns, and the SL8? You mean like every other manufacturer does?
What kind of problems?
Outside of government contracts, handguns are a sideshow, literally, for Beretta compared to their civilian shotgun sales.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/berettas-future-in-maryland-tied-to-states-gun-control-debate/2013/02/23/bcc56c62-7776-11e2-95e4-6148e45d7adb_story.html
There always seems to be a problem with Maryland...
Ugo Gussalli Beretta
Cause it's so hard to turn other self loading rifle into automatics?
You mean like they did for the roller lock guns, and the SL8? You mean like every other manufacturer does?
Most other manufacturers aren't based in Germany. HK's export laws are specific to German legislature.
And no, the SL8/G36 could allow for simply a change in the trigger pack and a few other minor items, as did the HK93/94/5 series. The XM8 was built differently and could not be "unconverted" from a machine gun. This is all common info on HKPro.
Mauser KAR98K
07-22-13, 09:26
The problem for HK is that they honestly didn't do what Sig has done in the U.S. They are a decade to late. Once the AWB sunsetted, they should have invested heavily in the U.S. market, namely pistols. Granted it would have been hard to compete with Glock, but look at S&W's M&P, even with all the troubles, people a re buying them in droves.
Better ergos and better trigger packages are no new thing, even in 2003-2004. Look at the Walther P99/P22. For as good as HK is, they could have come up with something like the P30, or brought the P2000 to a fullsize variant.
What they should do now is get into the emerging female shooters market. Instead of having most of their advertisement with black clad SWAT teams to lure in LE/Mil and Mall Ninja sales, they should be putting MORE women shooters on their catalogues. Look what Glock and Taurus have done. Glocks main running commercial is with a woman have her home broken into, and she stops the dude with her Glock 19.
The catch phrase could be simple: "In a World of Compromise, Some Mom's Don't."
Next, they need to figure out how to market to the lower-middle class without sacrificing their QC, and do so to keep things in house, as it should be.
They should also get with Merkil and tell her that the laws on the books is what is killing them. Have them point out that other Foreign firearms companies are doing very well in America and they aren't. Albeit, I would make the investment slow, but they needed to start ten years again. Hence, they need to go after the self-defense market and hold out on rifles.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/18/heckler-koch-germany-dire-financial-straits/
Old news. HK is privately owned company. It was bought out from Brits in MBO levered by bank loans secured on HK assets. Since then HKs profits are used to pay up loan taken to buy HK. Selling Merkel was part of that. This "investors" mentioned on blog are in fact three guys who took over company with this loans. I do not think that they fill "cheated" or something.
Why this info comes out now? There is black PR campaign against HK undergoing in German media for over a year. Mostly sponsored by leftist, progressive politicians, but strongly supported for companies who would gladly replace HK in role of Bundeswehr main armoury. This kind of "news" is supposed to make impression that it is dangerous for German national security to deal with company in such bad economical shape. Die Welt article is actually one of more neutral (or even lightly positive) in spite of recent assault on HK.
Alpha Sierra
07-22-13, 13:53
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/berettas-future-in-maryland-tied-to-states-gun-control-debate/2013/02/23/bcc56c62-7776-11e2-95e4-6148e45d7adb_story.html
BFD......moving a manufacturing plant and a corporate office is not that hard if Maryland politics suck so much.
And Maryland is HARDLY a model of the business climate of many other states. Ohio would welcome Beretta with open arms and a glut of skilled machinists, programmers, tool and die makers, and every other trade and profession needed to run a succesful gunmaker.
BFD......moving a manufacturing plant and a corporate office is not that hard if Maryland politics suck so much.
And Maryland is HARDLY a model of the business climate of many other states. Ohio would welcome Beretta with open arms and a glut of skilled machinists, programmers, tool and die makers, and every other trade and profession needed to run a succesful gunmaker.
Heh. Four years ago you would have said Colorado would welcome Beretta with open arms.
Any firearms company would have to be crazy to take a chance on America's political landscape. Ain't gonna happen and you know it.
MountainRaven
07-22-13, 14:37
Heh. Four years ago you would have said Colorado would welcome Beretta with open arms.
Any firearms company would have to be crazy to take a chance on America's political landscape. Ain't gonna happen and you know it.
Except, you know, for the ones that have. And are. And are succeeding beyond their expectations.
And in related news (http://us.hkwebshop.com/HKWeb/frameContent/10060///en-uk/6/972). Maybe this means the Marines will start allowing plastic magazines again?
Instead of having most of their advertisement with black clad SWAT teams to lure in LE/Mil and Mall Ninja sales, they should be putting MORE women shooters on their catalogues.
The catch phrase could be simple: "In a World of Compromise, Some Mom's Don't."
Next, they need to figure out how to market to the lower-middle class without sacrificing their QC, and do so to keep things in house, as it should be.
There is an abundance of high end guns out there appealing to the Mall Ninja market.
What the market is screaming for is a sub $1k rifle that is not an AK or Mini 14. A well made AR 180 anyone?
Personally, I think HK could make the XM8 at a very low cost and sell it to the civilian market.
Except, you know, for the ones that have. And are. And are succeeding beyond their expectations.
What overseas firearms mfgr has built a firearms factory here in the US in the last four years?
MountainRaven
07-22-13, 16:28
What overseas firearms mfgr has built a firearms factory here in the US in the last four years?
Israeli Weapons Industries.
Which is not only in the last four years but in the last twelve months.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-22-13, 16:30
What the market is screaming for is a sub $1k rifle that is not an AK or Mini 14. A well made AR 180 anyone?
Colt LE6920 is sub $1k isn't it?
MountainRaven
07-22-13, 16:31
Colt LE6920 is sub $1k isn't it?
No. Not even at Wal-mart.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-22-13, 16:44
GT Distributors
http://gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=COLT-LE6920
Part # COLT-LE6920
GT Price $995.95
Alpha Sierra
07-22-13, 16:47
Heh. Four years ago you would have said Colorado would welcome Beretta with open arms.
Any firearms company would have to be crazy to take a chance on America's political landscape. Ain't gonna happen and you know it.
Good morning Mr Van Winkle.......ask IWI how's it going.
Good morning Mr Van Winkle.......ask IWI how's it going.
I stand corrected. It looks like overseas firearms mfgrs are literally flocking to our shores.
I think the question is "is it SMART to build a firearms factory in the US with its current political climate?"
Exactly. The "cost" would probably sink them.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
MountainRaven
07-22-13, 18:32
I stand corrected. It looks like overseas firearms mfgrs are literally flocking to our shores.
There aren't that many left that aren't over here.
At least not that anybody cares about. Seriously, who will be left out? H&K, obviously.
Izhmash? There are already a ton of companies that import their guns and probably more that convert them to 922r compliance.
Denel? I suppose they could do a lot better here than in their native South Africa. Who wouldn't want an authentic semi-auto R4/5/6 (or LM4/5/6)? ...Probably lots of people, but nevermind. Not to mention domestic production of their MRAPs would give them a nice boost when our military puts up a contract for more of the big ole brutes.
Thales-Lithgow? I suspect Steyr will copy the most popular features of the F88 long before Thales opens a small arms plant in the US. And their F90 might well be produced commercially in this country in partnership with Steyr.
Howa? New AR-180s would be nice, but I don't think there's much demand for semi-auto Type-89s. (Although a semi-auto Type-89F would be kinda cool.)
The L85A2 and FAMAS are built by government organizations. Governments that are not too keen on the whole 'private citizens owning (evil-looking black rifle) guns thing'. Although the French might get smart and contract with somebody here so if/when they dump the FAMAS, they can cut up the receivers, import them as parts kits, and then rebuild them on mil-spec semi-auto-only receivers.
In the meantime, we have SiG, Beretta, IWI, FN, &c.
Alpha Sierra
07-22-13, 18:40
Exactly. The "cost" would probably sink them.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Wow, another brilliant business strategist.........
High Tower
07-22-13, 18:57
Old news. HK is privately owned company. It was bought out from Brits in MBO levered by bank loans secured on HK assets. Since then HKs profits are used to pay up loan taken to buy HK. Selling Merkel was part of that. This "investors" mentioned on blog are in fact three guys who took over company with this loans. I do not think that they fill "cheated" or something.
Why this info comes out now? There is black PR campaign against HK undergoing in German media for over a year. Mostly sponsored by leftist, progressive politicians, but strongly supported for companies who would gladly replace HK in role of Bundeswehr main armoury. This kind of "news" is supposed to make impression that it is dangerous for German national security to deal with company in such bad economical shape. Die Welt article is actually one of more neutral (or even lightly positive) in spite of recent assault on HK.
Easy now, let's not have facts get in the way of a good ole I hate them because they aren't Glock HK bashing :rolleyes:
Mauser KAR98K
07-22-13, 19:15
Easy now, let's not have facts get in the way of a good ole I hate them because they aren't Glock HK bashing :rolleyes:
Lol. I am not on that boat. I love HK. Would love to see HK do better in the U.S. on the civilian side.
High Tower
07-22-13, 19:50
Lol. I am not on that boat. I love HK. Would love to see HK do better in the U.S. on the civilian side.
Sorry, I wasn't targeting anyone in particular. It is frustrating when folks bash on HK without any understanding of what goes on. No company is perfect, but somehow HK bears the brunt from those that drink the hater-ade. There is a disturbing trend among gun folk where some really hate on companies/products because they do not own/cannot afford them. I would also like to see HK USA expand more and I think we will see it in time. As long as they don't Bill Silver to do it...
Alpha Sierra
07-22-13, 20:54
There is a disturbing trend among gun folk where some really hate on companies/products because they do not own/cannot afford them..
Can I be in the camp that doesn't care if they come, go, or stay?
There is an abundance of high end guns out there appealing to the Mall Ninja market.
What the market is screaming for is a sub $1k rifle that is not an AK or Mini 14. A well made AR 180 anyone?
Personally, I think HK could make the XM8 at a very low cost and sell it to the civilian market.
The sub $1K assault rifle is not going to happen. That time has come and gone.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-22-13, 22:03
The sub $1K assault rifle is not going to happen. That time has come and gone.
Not trying to advocate for these guys, but they do have a sub 1k AR15. Unless you are talking a real assault rifle and not an AR15. They are about 20 minutes away from me and the price below is what is on their wall as well. I would assume they would do transfers.
http://gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=COLT-LE6920[/url]
Part # COLT-LE6920
GT Price $995.95
The sub $1K assault rifle is not going to happen. That time has come and gone.
What makes you think that?
High Tower
07-22-13, 23:02
Can I be in the camp that doesn't care if they come, go, or stay?
I will allow it :p
Can I be in the camp that doesn't care if they come, go, or stay?
Sure. But why do you waste your time here, if you do not care? ;)
Most other manufacturers aren't based in Germany. HK's export laws are specific to German legislature.
The XM8 was built differently and could not be "unconverted" from a machine gun. This is all common info on HKPro.
The SL8 had a new bolt, receiver, trigger pack and mag well, but I guess that technology isn't available for any other platform.
The bias on HKPro is nutty. It will never be HKs fault on HKPro.
Until HK really wants to sell their guns here, they won't. FN/IWI/Beretta/Sig want to sell guns here.
The bias on HKPro is nutty. It will never be HKs fault on HKPro.
Every forum has a bias. What would you expect to see on HKPro? SIG or Glock or Colt bias?
M4Carbine.net have also strong bias, that same people could call nutty.
Yet still M4C and HKPro are places where wast amount of knowledge and experience accumulates. Just adjust for local bias and you are GTG :)
No. Not even at Wal-mart.
DSGarms has a magpul 6920 for sub $1k with mil/le discount and in stock. Wal-Mart is just a hair above $1k for 6920s. And quite a bit below $1k for windhams and sigs.
sinlessorrow
07-23-13, 14:05
DSGarms has a magpul 6920 for sub $1k with mil/le discount and in stock. Wal-Mart is just a hair above $1k for 6920s. And quite a bit below $1k for windhams and sigs.
Yep, my local guy has a 6920 SOCOM for $1300 and regular 6920's for $1000.
Wow, another brilliant business strategist.........
Whatever, dude
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
For those who care, HK issued statement on company financial situation. It can be found here:
http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military/company/news/detail/article/heckler-koch-financial-results-2012.html
I just want a P11. I couldn't care less about any of the newer HK's. I like my P7's, I want a P11, done.
A company that does build crap the public wants is having money problems? This is my shocked face -_-
In case anyone hasn't been paying attention.
THE USA IS THE GUN MARKET
The lowest figure I've ever seen for Izhmash imports to the USA is 83% of total production. Ask Beretta, FN and Colt who's buying their hardware.
If HK had been building and selling real 16'', 14.5'' and 10.4'' HK416 upper receiver groups here for the last decade, they'd be flush. The real joke is that the "HK M4" was originally billed as a drop in replacement upper for M4's. I think they used to sell them for $1,100 (LEO price).
According to them we don't need chrome lining and regular weight barrels. I even talked to them about it a couple times, they were always arrogant and condescending.
They could have been selling MP7 pistols in the country for a decade also. Just put on a stock cap and remove the VFG, then import. Same as they did with the SP89. Real no-brainer, easy import.
Their handgun line is all screwed up too. The HK45C can't mount most lights and the HK45 has some of the most gigantic, screwed up baseplates I've ever seen on a handgun... well, next to those 10 rounders they make for the HK45C. You'll notice that the prototype HK45 had much smaller baseplates and a smaller grip to better fit most users.
The P30 reminds me of a Glock 17 height gun with a Glock 19 length slide. WTF? A P2000 height frame improved to the HK45 prototype standards, now that would have been one of the best guns since the browning hi power and Glock 19.
Kraut bastards.
Kraut bastards.
Hitlers revenge perhaps? Also I'm having a difficult time arguing with anything you said. One would think that the US civilian market would be a pretty obvious choice to them.
There aren't that many left that aren't over here.
At least not that anybody cares about. Seriously, who will be left out? H&K, obviously.
I was referring to the stupidity of building a manufacturing facility in the US, not just an import path.
MountainRaven
08-06-13, 06:56
Last time I checked, the SCAR was stomping the FS2000 into the ground on sales.
Last time I checked, the SCAR was stomping the FS2000 into the ground on sales.
Maybe in US. Ah, yes, they sold 20 or so to Poland as well. When last time it became adopted as standard service rifle by any other country armed forces (like Slovenia adopted F2000 for example)?
BTW I removed my comment, because I came to conclusion that it is no point to keep it. Haters will still hate, lovers will still love.
MountainRaven
08-06-13, 07:04
Maybe in US. Ah, yes, they sold 20 or so to Poland as well. When last time it became adopted as standard service rifle by any other country armed forces (like Slovenia adopted F2000 for example)?
BTW I removed my comment, because I came to conclusion that it is no point to keep it. Haters will still hate, lovers will still love.
And Slovenia is the only nation to have adopted the F2000 (where it beat out the G36).
(And the SCAR wasn't available when they did.)
:p
And Slovenia is the only nation to have adopted the F2000 (where it beat out the G36).
(And the SCAR wasn't available when they did.)
:p
And SCAR was not adopted anywhere except US (and in small numbers here) since it is available :p
Anyway, discussion is out of context without my self removed comment (because it was not about SCAR anyway). So let's call is draw and leave it here. Shall we?
THE USA IS THE GUN MARKET
A lot of people really seem to struggle with this concept. While agencies sales are great, the big money is in selling to the American shooting public. This is why WalMart has greater market capitalization than Macy's - it has more customers buying more stuff.
Never in history has the American gun market been so informed, so discriminating, and so hungry. HK should have struck when the iron was hot, when the 416 was the next big thing. Now that people have had a chance to work with piston systems, the market seems less impressed.
Europeans seem to have great difficulty understanding the American gun market even though we are screaming the answers at them.
Europeans seem to have great difficulty understanding the American gun market even though we are screaming the answers at them.
Not so great difficulty. But also it is not as easy and straightforward as Americans tend to think. One of this complication for European companies that makes this market is much smaller are very conservative and very patriotic ('Buy American!') consumers. And this is good thing. It makes place for local companies, also for small ones. It is also supported by protective government policy (import restrictions and bans), that makes this cake harder to bite (and bitter) to foreign companies, even huge ones. And HK is actually a medium size company.
I speak from experience, working with medium size company, trying to enter US civilian market with quality product.
It's very simple, the HK416 and MP7 are regarded as military products, illegal to export for non military/LEO work from Germany under German laws, illegal to import for non military/LEO work under US laws. HK-USA has become overly stringent on agency/individual and demo sales because of German end user laws. It is possible that HK can't even have their products made in another country by a licensed operation without exposing themselves to legal liability under German law, hence the lack of 416 rifles or uppers being built here for general consumption. This liability might extend to all technology transfers.
Maybe what HK really needs to do is tell the German government that if they can't build legal products in foreign countries then they either need to have their payroll bankrolled by the German government, or they'll relocate to greener pastures in Poland or the Czech Republic and set up a nice sales office in Germany.
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