View Full Version : WHAT'S SHIPPING: SW M&P Shield 9mm, w/ Running Review (UPDATED 12/20/14)
I recently obtained a Smith and Wesson M&P Shield in 9mm for familiarization. Professional users of the M&P full size semi-autos have found this smaller sibling a logical choice for off-duty and as a secondary gun. The commercial market has seen these guns in constant extended backorder for its use as a concealed carry gun. Given that use and demand, I’m hoping to increase my knowledge and capabilities with this system and this sub-type in particular. The following information is posted to add to the knowledge base and serve as a reference for future inquiries. I’ll add to the info for the duration of the project and as pertinent. My interest in solely in the 9mm variant, and that’s what was obtained. This gun was purchased at retail, selected from the pile at random, and without disclosure or involvement of Smith and Wesson or any ammunition or accessory manufacturer.
Manufacturer: Smith and Wesson
Model: M&P9Shield, p/n 180021
Serial Number: HPM####
Production Date: 06/25/2013
On the web: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category1_750001_750051_780153_-1_757781_757781
UNBOXING
The Shield ships in a cardboard box branded with the Smith and Wesson logo. The box contains a simple users manual, a youth handgun safety act handout, gun lock, orange chamber plug/flag, the Shield itself, one 7rd magazine, and one 8rd magazine with spacer. The gun was covered in a typical preservative.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield91.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield92.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield95.jpg
Initial Actions and Inspection
The Shield was field stripped, cleaned of preservative, and lubricated with Slip EWL. Function checks of the safeties and operable controls were performed and passed. This gun was equipped with a manual safety and no magazine disconnect.
Steel sights, three dot configuration.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield912.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield913.jpg
The underside of the slide contained three machined dimples, the purpose of which is not known.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield99.jpg
The underside of the barrel contains a dimple-like strike mark, which S&W advises is a hardness testing mark.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield97.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield98.jpg
The barrel’s rate of twist is 1/10. S&W advises that the Shield has had this twist rate and barrel configuration from the beginning, and is not subject to the changes with the other M&P autos.
The interior surface of the dustcover contains two molded protrusions which are reported to signify a generation of lower receiver.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield915.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield96.jpg
DRY FIRE
I did a lengthy dry fire session to acclimate myself to the Shield trigger and it’s attributes. The Shield is mechanically a single action auto but is currently identified in product literature as a “striker fired action.” Others in the M&P family have been referred to as a double action only at certain points. The longer take-up and spring resistance of the Shield create the impression of a softer and more traditional double action pull. Trigger weight is published at ~6.5#, and perceived to be about that amount. It has not been measured on a gauge. During dry fire, I noted that the easy take up led to a stiff wall of resistance prior to striker release. That wall seemed to soften a bit with repetition. I also noted that the trigger break required significant discipline to prevent disruption of the sights. After my dry fire session, I gave the gun to some others to work the action and press the trigger for a few hundred more repetitions.
LIVE FIRE
My first live fire session had several goals, including but not limited to inherent and practical accuracy assessments, my functional performance during drills and standards, and overall shootability and user friendliness of the gun. Where possible, I also set out to quantify the differences in my shooting between the Shield and my regular subcompact, the G26.
Ammunition chosen was selected based on its previous performance in other guns and likelihood of recurring use in the future. These loads were:
Black Hills Ammunition, new, 115gr JHP-XTP +P
Black Hills Ammunition, new, 124gr JHP-XTP
Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (#AE9DP)
Federal Americal Eagle 124gr FMJ (#AE9AP)
Federal 147gr JHP (#9MS)
Federal 147gr JHP HST (#P9HST2)
Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ (#53650)
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620)
Herters (CCI Blazer) 115gr TNJ
EXERCISE 1
This was a slow fire bullseye exercise on B8 repair centers at 25yds. The ammo chosen for this drill was BHA’s 124gr JHP-XTP, and they were the first live rounds fired through the gun. Target results were abysmal, with a score of about 20-0X. So befuddling was this result that I fell into the trap of first questioning my equipment. A second B8 was posted at 10yds and another 10 rounds of the 124 XTPs fired. This produced a score of about 60-1X, still abysmal, but instructive.
Additional B8s were shot at the 7yd with five rounds each of the Federal 147gr JHP and the AE 124gr FMJ. These were better than the previous but still very poor. Analyzing the targets, it was clear that the errors were my own and that during the trigger press I was simply crunchensucking.
G26 Comparison: A recent 25yd, B8 slowfire drill produced a 92-2x using Federal 147gr JHP.
EXERCISE 2
This was a slow fire dot drill on 6ea 1” squares. Five rounds each of the loads below were comingled with dummy rounds and fired at 5yds. # Hits / # Missed
#1 Federal 147gr JHP (#9MS), 4 / 1
#2 Federal 147gr JHP HST (#P9HST2), 4 / 1
#3 Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620), 4 / 1
#4 Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ (#53650), 4 / 1
#5 Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (#AE9DP), 4 / 0
#6 Herters (CCI Blazer) 115gr TNJ, 2 / 3
Even at the 5yd line, it was clear that the Shield required a much greater amount of trigger discipline, especially at the end of the press. Though the misses were small, and to a bystander “obsessive”, they were still misses and therefore unsatisfactory. Further, they represented much larger errors that would manifest at distance if left uncorrected.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield925.jpg
EXERCISE 3
This was a slow fire dot drill on 6ea 3.5” circles as printed on the “US Customs Service CAT III” target. Five rounds each of the loads below were fired at 10yds. # Hits / # Missed
#1 Federal 147gr JHP (#9MS), 4 / 1
Lost one of over the backer. I looked and hoped two see two grease rings overlapping a single hole, but it was not to be.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield917.jpg
#2 Federal 147gr JHP HST (#P9HST2), 5 / 0
All in the circle, though disappointing in size. This is the result I was looking for on the B8 at 25yds.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield918.jpg
#3 Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620), 4 / 1
Lost one ~1.5” below the circle.
This group produced an aggressive 6:00 ejection into my forehead with a bite of my skin.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield919.jpg
#4 Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ (#53650), 5 / 0
All in, 4/5 trending right.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield920.jpg
#5 Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (#AE9DP), 4 / 1
Lost one ~1.5” high.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield921.jpg
#6 Herters (CCI Blazer) 115gr TNJ,
Lost one ~1.5” high and right.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield922.jpg
During each group of five, the rounds lost high or low were usually the first or second of the group.
G26 Comparison: A recent 15yd slow fire drill produced a 4rd ~1.25” group with BHA 115gr Tac-XP +P.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield916.jpg
EXERCISE 4
This was a 50rd LE course of fire testing basic proficiency, 3yds – 25yds. Score: 43/50. Noteworthy in this exercise was the loss of two rounds low and low right on the torso but remaining on the target. Two rounds running high into the lower left of the head scoring ring were made from the 25yd line. Rounds fired at the 25yd line trended right.
During this drill, the Federal 147 JHP caused a hard stoppage due to a rolled case mouth on feeding. This is entirely an ammo failing, and has been observed in recent 9MS at a rate of ~10%.
G26 Comparison: Multiple firings of this course are typically 50/50.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield923.jpg
EXERCISE 5
F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, and Speed Test). Ammo used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ.
Run #1: 8.73, -0H, -1B. w/ penalty, 9.73. Slide failed to lock back, overhand rack.
Run #2: 7.25, -1H, -0B. w/ penalty, 9.25.
Run #3: 7.28, -0H, -1B. w/ penalty, 8.28. Slide failed to lock back, overhand rack.
G26 Comparison: A FAST fired in April
Run #1: 6.45, -0H, -2B. w/ penalty, 8.45
Run #2: 6.5, clean
Run #3: 6.83, clean
EXERCISE 6
D1R1 to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally, 7yds, Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ
6.92, C
5.68, -1
5.37, -2
5.42, C
5.42, C
These were pretty bad. No G26 comparison data available.
EXERCISE 7
D2 to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally, 7yds, Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ
3.07, C
2.91, -2. Soft stoppage, FTE on round #2
2.84, -2
3.10, -1
2.97, C
G26 Comparison: Typical times for my G26 runs are around ~2.5 clean.
EXERCISE 8
D5 to an IPSC A-Zone at each distance. Goal time is 3 sec.
3yd, 3.13 C
5yd, 3.09 C
7yd, 3.5 C
10yd, 3.72 C
G26 Comparison: Straight 3 sec par time
3yd, Pass C
5yd, Pass C
7yd, Pass C
10yd, Fail – Over time
EXERCISE 9
This was a repeat of exercise #1, slow fire bullseye on a B8 repair center at 25yds. This run used the Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P. Score: ~63-0X. This score is a substantial improvement over the first run, but far less than the 90% expected for the drill and otherwise deemed acceptable. It does reflect my adaptation to the gun through the progression of drills, but still leaves me far from where I wanted to be by the end of the session.
SUMMARY
This was a frustrating yet educational range session. I had expected differences in handling and shooting between the Shield and G26, but clearly underestimated them. As I review the times and scores above, as well as the nuances of each round fired, I am less accurate and slower with this Shield. While it’s possible that I simply had a bad range day, I believe it's much more a shooter-system combination that needs further work to achieve potential.
Other observations:
I’d like to see a more aggressive grip surface texture to prevent slip during firing, especially as hands become wet/sweaty. This grip surface is poor.
I would remove the texturing on the underside of the trigger guard nearest the front strap. In dry handling, I started to develop some abrasion to the knuckle of my middle finger that become a sore spot in live fire. This was also noted by others handling the gun.
Trigger reset is soft in dry fire, and indistinct enough in live fire to be easily missed.
I initially didn’t care for the 8rd magazine or its insert. During reload drills though, I found that I didn’t need to adjust my grip to seat the longer magazine as I did with the shorter. My large hands and the abbreviated grip partially obstruct the empty mag well and impede mag movement. I think the pairing of the 7rd mag and 8rd magazine is probably a good one.
I’ve been spoiled by Trijicon HDs and Ameriglo I-Dot Pros on my working guns. Going back to a lower profile three-dot setup as shipped on the Shield makes me feel like I’ve gone back to the original stubby bumps found on the early 1911s.
The slide stop lever/slide release lever was STIFF on arrival but loosened up a bit with work. Despite its low profile, I still managed to hold it down while shooting and keep it from holding the slide open.
I have no use for the manual safety, and will remove the assembly and plug it if this guns stays in service to prevent accidental activation.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield914.jpg
Ejection of empty cases was strong and distinct, except for the two cases of 6:00 ejection noted above. Ejection was so strong, that despite shooting in the middle of the range nearly all my brass fell neatly several lanes to my right. This occurred regardless of ammunition.
Though I am not a fan of modifying OEM components with aftermarket options, I’m curious what one of the available trigger kits would do for that stiff break and resulting hits on target at speed.
Total rounds fired: 218
mkmckinley
07-24-13, 20:01
Nice write up. This is the kind of thing people join M4C to read.
I understand you're not interested n the safety but how would you describe it's ease of manipulation? Could you see yourself using it repeatedly during a class or heavy shooting weekend without wearing a hole in your thumb? How would you rate the accuracy of the shield compared to the accuracy you have with your other compacts?
I also find the overtravel to be difficult to master. At 7 yards, almost all my shots were impacting slightly left. Do you know if the M&P9 Apex DCAEK sear will work in the Shield?
Good and thorough review. I have messed with these quite a bit and have found that they are very accurate (have hit a 12X18 plate at over 100yds with one). I have also measured the trigger pull weight and it is every bit of 6.5lbs. If you polish and round the striker block, polish the sear and trigger bar will drop the pull weight about half a pound.
The Apex Tactical Apex DCAEK will make the trigger pull weight 5lbs. If you use the factory trigger return spring with the DCAEK, the pull weight will be 4LBS (FYI).
The Ameriglo sights do help a lot BTW. :D
C4
Awesome write up. I've been really digging your posts lately, Skintop.
Awesome review. I'm debating between this Shield and the G26 for my next purchase.
Do they make a version without the safety?
I understand you're not interested n the safety but how would you describe it's ease of manipulation? Could you see yourself using it repeatedly during a class or heavy shooting weekend without wearing a hole in your thumb?
In my opinion, the size and protrusion of the safety makes it useful for administrative or storage tasks but little else. It is easily activated, intentionally or inadvertently. I could sweep it off on presentation, but it wasn't always consistent. For me, the admin/storage function isn't useful so it can go away. I don't think it would wear on the thumb too much if you did opt to use it.
How would you rate the accuracy of the shield compared to the accuracy you have with your other compacts?
At this point, it's not fair to rule on that beyond the results posted. The overwhelming majority of my pistol shooting in 2013 has been on G19s and G26s, so they have the obvious edge. With more familiarization I may be able to narrow that gap a bit. I'm not done shooting it for sure, so we'll see.
I will have an XDs 9mm coming up, so I'll run some exercises for comparison and see how it does.
I also find the overtravel to be difficult to master. At 7 yards, almost all my shots were impacting slightly left. Do you know if the M&P9 Apex DCAEK sear will work in the Shield?
I don't know that I find any problematic overtravel, in the conventional definition of it. Can you describe this more?
I have minimal experience with the M&P Apex gear, none of which is in a Shield. I don't know about availability.
Good and thorough review. I have messed with these quite a bit and have found that they are very accurate (have hit a 12X18 plate at over 100yds with one). I have also measured the trigger pull weight and it is every bit of 6.5lbs. If you polish and round the striker block, polish the sear and trigger bar will drop the pull weight about half a pound.
The Apex Tactical Apex DCAEK will make the trigger pull weight 5lbs. If you use the factory trigger return spring with the DCAEK, the pull weight will be 4LBS (FYI).
The Ameriglo sights do help a lot BTW. :D
C4
Great info, thanks.
Do they make a version without the safety?
I am told a current or future LE version has no safety, but have no info.
Dos Cylindros
07-24-13, 22:41
First off great review! I purchased a Shield in 40 last month to act as a back up and off duty to my department issued full size M&P 40. After owning it for about three weeks, I sold it to a co-worker. I found the slim profile not to my liking for a full time off duty gun, and it was just a hair to big for me as a backup gun (my J frame will stay in that role).
The 9mm vs 40 was not an issue for me as I have shot both in the Shield platform and don't really notice a great difference. Plus, I get free 40 ammo from work. My Glock 23 will remain my off duty gun until I can pick up an M&P 40c. I replaced the Shield with an M&P 9L pro series 5" and am turning it into the ultimate HD gun.
First off, thanks for making a M4Carbine-worthy post. I stay around here because there's a lot of good information, as seen here.
During dry fire, I noted that the easy take up led to a stiff wall of resistance prior to striker release. That wall seemed to soften a bit with repetition. I also noted that the trigger break required significant discipline to prevent disruption of the sights. After my dry fire session, I gave the gun to some others to work the action and press the trigger for a few hundred more repetitions.
To answer your question, there's still trigger movement after the trigger breaks, which leads to the 'disruption of the sights' that you mentioned. I believe the Apex Hard Sear sets the break far closer to the end of trigger travel, and thus eliminates overtravel. I have one laying around here, so I'll see if I can drop it in and test-fire it tomorrow.
Desert Dog
07-25-13, 00:30
Very thorough review. Nice work.
I've had a Shield since the first week they hit the market. Mine is still dead stock and things have (as would be expected) gotten smoother with use. I was hoping Trijicon would have Shield specific sights by now, but alas none have been released thus far.
As someone whos Shield has replaced a G26 for discrete carry, I can add a couple of observations here. I shoot the Shield better with the flush mag. This is counterintuitive because of the dangling pinky, which one assumes would help your shooting if it weren't. In fact, the longer grip just feels so much better/natural that I almost traded off the flush mag.
Before I did make the proposed trade, I decided to give the flush mag another go. Glad I did. At first I thought the improved groups were a fluke, but more practice showed me the error of this assumption. Turns out that with the smaller circumference of the Shield, when I grip with a pinky on an extended mag it keeps my middle and ring fingers from fully closing around the grip. Harder to explain than to observe gun in hand.
Grip texture is much improved with the addition of a Talon grip tape. I tried the rubberized version over the rougher sandpaper model. However, heat and sweat has caused it to come unglued. I'll probably get the Shield stippled once I decide what pattern to go with.
The Shield is a keeper and worth spending a little more on to upgrade. The flatter profile makes it disappear in a way the G26 simply can't compete with. I can shoot the Shield so much better than my 9mm J-frame (940) that I'm probably going to retire it now. I'll keep the 642 for those (rare) occasions where pocket carry is the best option.
I also find the overtravel to be difficult to master. At 7 yards, almost all my shots were impacting slightly left. Do you know if the M&P9 Apex DCAEK sear will work in the Shield?
Yes it will. This will drop your pull weight some, but not as much as you might think.
C4
I mirror the thoughts on the brick wall sear break and crappy sights. My trigger after about 250 rounds has started VERY slowly to break easier, but I am still going to swap to the Apex kit like all my other M&P's have.
The first time I shot the gun was at a range where it was sunny outside, but we were under cover and the sights were all black to me and I struggled with getting a good sight picture. I am going to swap sights to a 3 dot setup from Ameriglo with a Pro dot front and a 2 dot rear(the SW-251 setup) as I prefer the 3 dot setups since all of my various pistols have them.
I just got my holster yesterday from LaTour Customs and carried for a few hours yesterday and I think I have found my new carry gun(after the trigger and sights are put on and I put another 250 rounds through the gun plus a box of carry ammo).
Yes it will. This will drop your pull weight some, but not as much as you might think.
C4
Thanks for the information. :thank_you2: I dropped the sear in last night, going to test it at the range today. I'll see if I can't post a comparison of targets at 7 yards.
Great write up-- looking for a new carry piece since I sold my kahr--already a FS M&P owner so this might fit he bill. Thanks
Took the Shield out for a spin today, post Apex Hard Sear.
Results without hard sear:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RR5w-F2tirI/UdS_BKV2eMI/AAAAAAAAFd8/9NNPRd2G9pY/w680-h510-no/20130703_193027.jpg
With Hard Sear:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tsHswH5xZV4/UfF_l_8R_HI/AAAAAAAAFjM/vFUzXPSh5r0/w680-h510-no/20130725_153500.jpg
I also installed M&P Trijicon HDs on the Shield, but they overhang ever-so-slightly on the slide.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HCsFTMHk_G0/UfE6wWKwBKI/AAAAAAAAFic/ZFSodIx7bq4/w383-h510-no/20130725_104803.jpg
I think the large U-notch of the HDs and the Shield's short sight radius make the gun slightly less accurate. Hope this was helpful. YMMV.
I've not felt very comfortable with my Shield (I've had it almost a year now it seems). After having mostly Glocks, the Shield does not 'feel' right in my hands and I don't have the 'natural point' down as good as a Glock.
Do you notice if the angle degree of the grip to barrel seems 'different' than the Glock to you?
The thinner Shield makes it much easier to conceal IWB, but until I get to where it feels natural in my hands like a Glock does, I am hesitant to trust it.
Great write up!
I'm new to the Shield game as well. Took a Concealed Carry course with local VSM instructor Hans from 914 consulting to give my Shield 9mm a good run. I had problems activating the safety after certain drills. It would not allow me to put the safety "on". Also when I dry fire practice, I can cock the striker, draw, pick up my sights, and start to depress my trigger taking up the slack, then release the trigger to reholster. When I try to activate the safety then, it won't let me.
Do you or anyone else with a Shield experience the same problems as me with the external safety?
G34Shooter
07-25-13, 18:01
I will have an XDs 9mm coming up, so I'll run some exercises for comparison and see how it does.
http://3-akamai.tapcdn.com/images/thumbs/taps/2013/05/antonio-banderas-gif-52bbd904-original.gif
As someone whos Shield has replaced a G26 for discrete carry, I can add a couple of observations here. I shoot the Shield better with the flush mag. This is counterintuitive because of the dangling pinky, which one assumes would help your shooting if it weren't. In fact, the longer grip just feels so much better/natural that I almost traded off the flush mag.
Not counterintuitive at all, and not unique to the Shield. This is also observed in the Glock subcompacts and others. In simplest terms, the abbreviated grip is less surface area for you to influence during movement of your hand muscles, intended and otherwise. This is why many note increased accuracy performance. However, there's a trade off as the reduced grip area is less surface area with which to control the gun when running at speed.
Grip texture is much improved with the addition of a Talon grip tape. I tried the rubberized version over the rougher sandpaper model. However, heat and sweat has caused it to come unglued. I'll probably get the Shield stippled once I decide what pattern to go with.
While I'm certain I haven't tried them all, I have yet to meet a grip add-on that doesn't move or come loose in fairly short order.
I'm not a fan of stippling, but the Shield may be a candidate for same if I keep it for the long term.
Yes it will. This will drop your pull weight some, but not as much as you might think. C4
And as you know well, weight is only one part of the equation. Quality of the weight and its distribution is a big factor as well.
Took the Shield out for a spin today, post Apex Hard Sear.
Any 25yd results? 15?
Do you notice if the angle degree of the grip to barrel seems 'different' than the Glock to you?
Yes, and it showed in both my dry exercises and against the timer. Especially to the smaller/shorter zones like the 3x5.
I had problems activating the safety after certain drills. It would not allow me to put the safety "on". Also when I dry fire practice, I can cock the striker, draw, pick up my sights, and start to depress my trigger taking up the slack, then release the trigger to reholster. When I try to activate the safety then, it won't let me.
Do you or anyone else with a Shield experience the same problems as me with the external safety?
I can't get mine to do what you're describing.
Ill see if I can make a video
Any 25yd results? 15?
I had some 10 yard groups with bigger spread. Since I'm going to test a new M&P9 barrel tomorrow, I'll try at both 15 and 25 yards with the shield, and post results.
Desert Dog
07-25-13, 22:30
Not counterintuitive at all, and not unique to the Shield. This is also observed in the Glock subcompacts and others. In simplest terms, the abbreviated grip is less surface area for you to influence during movement of your hand muscles, intended and otherwise. This is why many note increased accuracy performance. However, there's a trade off as the reduced grip area is less surface area with which to control the gun when running at speed.
I don't think you're quite understanding my point. It is not about "less surface area for you to influence you during movement of your hand muscles", but rather, when you add the pinky in to the gripping equation with the Shield (provided you have reasonably sized hands), it impedes your ability to fully tighten your middle and ring fingers around the smaller circumference of the Shield. The Glock is enough bigger in grip circumference that the 'problem' is Shield specific, and why there is a unique learning curve when transitioning to the Shield.
Flush mag with just two fingers doing most of the grasping provides more control (for me) than an extended mag where the pinky is providing more of the tightening leverage around the grip and the middle and ring fingers contributing less. With a G26, and an extended base plate that allows the pinky to be used to grip, I don't seem to have the same problem. Probably because the middle and ring fingers are not having to close as far around the grip.
Compounding the problem is the fact that I can't really get my pinky finger all the way on to the extended mag, which causes me to try and force it on, which makes the ring finger start to lift off. Maybe grinding a high grip cut at the root of thr trigger guard would help, but I've decided to just treat the Shield as a two finger gun. Even with an extended mag it works better for me to interlace the pinky rather than trying to perch it on the floor plate. Not wanting to use an unorthodox or special grip technique with the Shield, I've settled on just using flush mags and a two finger grip. Works for me. YMMV.
I don't think you're quite understanding my point. It is not about "less surface area for you to influence you during movement of your hand muscles", but rather, when you add the pinky in to the gripping equation with the Shield (provided you have reasonably sized hands), it impedes your ability to fully tighten your middle and ring fingers around the smaller circumference of the Shield. The Glock is enough bigger in grip circumference that the 'problem' is Shield specific, and why there is a unique learning curve when transitioning to the Shield.
Flush mag with just two fingers doing most of the grasping provides more control (for me) than an extended mag where the pinky is providing more of the tightening leverage around the grip and the middle and ring fingers contributing less. With a G26, and an extended base plate that allows the pinky to be used to grip, I don't seem to have the same problem. Probably because the middle and ring fingers are not having to close as far around the grip.
Compounding the problem is the fact that I can't really get my pinky finger all the way on to the extended mag, which causes me to try and force it on, which makes the ring finger start to lift off. Maybe grinding a high grip cut at the root of thr trigger guard would help, but I've decided to just treat the Shield as a two finger gun. Even with an extended mag it works better for me to interlace the pinky rather than trying to perch it on the floor plate. Not wanting to use an unorthodox or special grip technique with the Shield, I've settled on just using flush mags and a two finger grip. Works for me. YMMV.
As I learned in patrol bicycle school, your pinky is one of your strongest fingers. I was having trouble braking and was told not to use the pinky since it squeezes too hard.
10 years ago, I couldn't figure out why I could hit steel at 50 yards with my glock 27, but I couldn't with my full size Glock 22.
Regardless of what size gun I shoot, I am very conscious of what my pinky is doing.
Desert Dog
07-26-13, 01:04
^ Interesting point. Reminded me of Hickok45 (of YouTube fame) shooting his Glock 27 at a metal gong 230 yards away and scoring 3 hits from one mag. Watched the video again and noted his mention of preferring flush mags.
http://youtu.be/GmMEg4y54Dk
I don't think you're quite understanding my point. It is not about "less surface area for you to influence you during movement of your hand muscles", but rather, when you add the pinky in to the gripping equation with the Shield (provided you have reasonably sized hands), it impedes your ability to fully tighten your middle and ring fingers around the smaller circumference of the Shield. The Glock is enough bigger in grip circumference that the 'problem' is Shield specific, and why there is a unique learning curve when transitioning to the Shield.
Copy all, I see what mean now.
^ Interesting point. Reminded me of Hickok45 (of YouTube fame) shooting his Glock 27 at a metal gong 230 yards away and scoring 3 hits from one mag. Watched the video again and noted his mention of preferring flush mags.
http://youtu.be/GmMEg4y54Dk
Hickok is a local legend around here :)
UPDATE
Since the first handling and exercises above I continued dry fire work at home, focusing particularly on trigger press. What little progress I seemed to make with the Shield came slowly but still felt like improvement. I was able to hit the range again yesterday (7/25) for additional live fire.
In addition to the Shield, I brought along a Ruger LC9. The LC9 is another popular subcompact competitor and a logical comparison. My LC9 experience is limited, and I had no data on record. This particular LC9 is the LC9-LM variant, equipped with the Lasermax red laser module as further detailed here: http://www.ruger.com/products/lc9/models.html
EXERCISE 1
M&P Shield
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP
@ 25yds, 36-0X
@ 10yds, 96-2X
Ruger LC9
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 115gr EXP
@ 25yds, 76-0X
@ 10yds, 92-2X
Both Shield results were better than last time and had greater consistency on target. The 25yd result remains seriously disappointing. Results with the LC9 were disappointing as well, but seemed to support that the Shield and I just don’t seem to be communicating effectively.
EXERCISE 2
D2 from a concealment to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. Herters 115gr TNJ
M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.97
Highest clean: 4.10 (fumbled draw)
Average, all runs: 3.48
Ruger LC9
Lowest clean: 3.21
Highest clean: 3.69
Average, all runs: 3.38
I had a couple of soft 6:00 ejections from the Shield on this drill, both striking my right forearm.
EXERCISE 3
D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds. Herters 115gr TNJ
M&P Shield
3yds, 2.94 C
5yds, 3.31 C
7yds, 3.87 C
10yds, 4.18 -2
Ruger LC9
3yds, 3.73 C
5yds, 3.61 C
7yds, 3.84 C
10yds, 4.14 -1
There wasn’t much difference on the Shield between first and second sessions. The LC9 wasn’t as different as I thought it would be on the timer, though perceptually each of those five trigger presses took forever. Shot groupings on the Shield were much tighter than with the LC9 at each yard line.
EXERCISE 4
F.A.S.T., Herters 115gr TNJ, from concealment
M&P Shield
7.18, -1H, -3B, 12.18 w/ penalties
8.38, C
7.27, -0H, -1B, 8.27 w/ penalties
The wheels fell off…nay, the car went careening off the road…on run 1, but 2 and 3 weren’t dramatically different than the first session. The slide failed to lock back on all rounds requiring an overhand rack due to my grip.
I had no spare mag for the LC9, and was not able to shoot the FAST with it.
SUMMARY
Concealment methods above were AIWB beneath an untucked tee shirt.
Progress is slow.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 78
Shield cumulative total: 296
COMPARISON PICS
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3720.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3721.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3722.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3728.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3730.jpg
UPDATE
I was able to hit the range again this week (7/30) for some more live fire. Tuesday’s work was to continue to assess the shield, and now compare it to another of its competitors, the Springfield Armory XDs subcompact in 9mm. See it on the web here: http://xdspistol.com/
EXERCISE 1
M&P Shield
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP
@ 25yds, 57-0X
@ 10yds, 90-1X
SAI XDs
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP
@ 25yds, 84-0X
@ 10yds, 98-5X
The Shield results at 25yd continue to improve. This run was a nicer cluster of rounds, distinctly high and to the right approximately 4” off the X. 10yd performance had a slight decline, but a better grouping of rounds.
Results with the XDs were better than I had expected. The 25yd group ran high ~3-4” but was nicely clustered.
EXERCISE 2
D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds. The ammunition used for this exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr, p/n P9HS1G.
M&P Shield
3yds, 2.73, C
5yds, 2.76, -3
7yds, 3.84, -1
10yds, 4.03, -1
SAI XDs
3yds, 2.81, C
5yds, 2.94, -1
7yds, 3.30, -1
10yds, 3.76, C
This exercise produced some faster run times with the Shield than in prior sessions, but poorer accuracy as I pushed forward to test the limits. Overall results with the XDs were good, and it had the edge during this particular test.
EXERCISE 3
D2 from a concealment to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. The ammunition used for exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr, p/n P9HS1G.
M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.92
Highest clean: 3.27
Average, all runs: 2.95
SAI XDs
Lowest clean: 2.58
Highest clean: 3.23
Average, all runs: 2.79
The XDs nudged out the Shield in this test. The rounds that missed the card struck closer to its borders than with the Shield.
EXERCISE 4
LAPD SWAT “A Course”, 50 rounds, 3-25yds. The ammunition used for exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr, p/n P9HS1G. Note not only the raw score, but the spreads of the rounds on target. Scoring zone is a B21-type.
During this exercise, the M&P experienced another FTE, this time at the 15yd line, which was cleared and the course continued.
M&P Shield - 47/50
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3758.jpg
SAI XDs - 48/50
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3759.jpg
EXERCISE 5
State of Maine DPS Criminal Justice Academy, “Plain Clothes Pistol Qualification Course”. 50 rounds, 3-18yds. The ammunition used for exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 147gr, p/n P9HS2G. The target used for scoring was an IPSC A-Zone paired with the 3x5 index card for the failure drill shots. You can download the course here: http://www.maine.gov/dps/mcja/forms/documents/PlainClothesPistolQualificationCourse2011.doc
During this exercise, the M&P experienced a second FTE for this range session at the 7yd line, which was cleared and the course continued. One round was not fired.
M&P Shield - 44/49
SAI XDs – 45/50
As on the LAPD course, rounds from the Shield were a larger cluster than the XDs.
EXERCISE 6
An additional ~21 rounds were fired through the Shield by a disinterested citizen happening onto the range during the session. No quantitative data was obtained. Subjective observations from the shooter described the gun as “feels nice”, and “that was fun.” Observed performance on target showed that the shooter easily kept their rounds in the black on a B8 bullseye at ~5yds.
SUMMARY
Concealment methods above were 3:00 OWB beneath an untucked tee shirt.
Continued handling and shooting of the Shield has worn a sore at the inside base of my left thumb near the web. This spot corresponds to the location of the safety lever on the Shield when gripping the gun. An additional sore is rising on the top of my right knuckle, due to the grip texturing on the underside of the trigger guard.
One thing I’ve been pondering in further handling and shooting of the Shield is the grip shape. In comparing the guns in this size class, the Shield’s grip is a more pronounced long oval than others and there is not as much definitive contact or memory spots for my long hands. This may be contributing to some of my issues, and will get further consideration.
The two additional stoppages, both FTEs, were disappointing. One each occurred with 124 and 147gr Hydra-Shok ammunition, which are known to be reliable in other guns. Both loads functioned in the XDs without stoppage. Ejection was otherwise vigorous in the Shield with these loads, several feet to ~4:00-5:00. No 6:00 ejections were noted.
There are now a total of three of these stoppages in rounds to date, <500. All of these occurred with ammunition that is known-good in other guns, and when the Shield has been cleaned prior to that range session. An armorer will be consulted and more detailed inspection performed, as this failure rate is unacceptable.
If these stoppages are satisfactorily resolved, I’ll be exploring options for trigger quality improvement as this develops.
Credit where credit is due to the XDs on this one.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 180
Shield cumulative total: 476
COMPARISON PICS
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3751.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3752.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3755.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3753.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3761.jpg
Four guns to date, more to follow.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3750.jpg
G34Shooter
07-31-13, 22:38
Thanks for the detailed review!
jerrysimons
08-01-13, 10:22
Thank you!
To what do you attribute your shooting more accurately with the XDs over the Shield?
I have a Shield with about 300 rounds through it. I too have my middle finger knuckle rubbed raw by the texture under the trigger guard. 'Absolutely obnoxious!
As for failures, for a total of about 270rds, I have not had any when I was the shooter. Recently my sister shot it and the gun would barely run. FTE on every other round with CCI 115gr aluminum and 115gr PMC Bronze. I thought she may be limp wristing so she gripped more firmly and and still it would not run. Her gripped checked out. While it was doing this I would get it from her and rapid fire a whole mag, same ammo, with no problems. When I handed it back to her, FTE left and right.
Perplexing as it is, it must be something she was doing, perhaps her finger was touching the side of the slide, but I asked her and she said she didn't feel any rubbing.
Have you thought about comparing a Khar PM9 aswell?
Thanks for your diligent reporting!
Thank you!
To what do you attribute your shooting more accurately with the XDs over the Shield?
Both the Shield and the XD are single action mechanisms, but are distinctly different in the amount of slop, play, and overall quality of travel. The XDs I have has a smooth take up with consistent resistance to a remarkably clean break. The Shield does...not. It's light and springy to a stone wall you press through. The difference between them was immediately apparent in dry handling.
Observations of the Shield trigger are usually among the very first verbalized.
I have a Shield with about 300 rounds through it. I too have my middle finger knuckle rubbed raw by the texture under the trigger guard. 'Absolutely obnoxious!
I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind putting it there, but perhaps there's an explanation. Either way, there's sandpaper and/or the dremel. The overall shaping of the trigger guard at that point isn't bad, just the surface texture.
As for failures, for a total of about 270rds, I have not had any when I was the shooter. Recently my sister shot it and the gun would barely run. FTE on every other round with CCI 115gr aluminum and 115gr PMC Bronze. I thought she may be limp wristing so she gripped more firmly and and still it would not run. Her gripped checked out. While it was doing this I would get it from her and rapid fire a whole mag, same ammo, with no problems. When I handed it back to her, FTE left and right.
Good info, thank you. I run an aggressive thumbs-forward grip, so I'm a bit perplexed.
I'm going to shoot some crappy ammo through it to see if I can find a threshold or common variable for the problem. The CCI Blazer 115s, and the Herters load thereof, are usually good for finding it. PMC 115 is also pretty marginal, so I'll run down some of that too.
It might be time to just take a couple thousand to the range and run it in a session to see what happens.
Have you thought about comparing a Khar PM9 aswell?
Thanks for your diligent reporting!
The list of requests is growing. I'm trying to stay within a narrow size range of logical competitors to each other. There are larger and smaller options but results can get diluted pretty easily. The PM9 might be more correctly described as a micro. Others like the Ruger SR9C and Sig 239 may be approaching a large-subcompact or small compact class.
I've only had two responses from folks with heartburn so I'm still open to useful input.
G34Shooter
08-01-13, 12:36
Both the Shield and the XD are single action mechanisms, but are distinctly different in the amount of slop, play, and overall quality of travel. The XDs I have has a smooth take up with consistent resistance to a remarkably clean break. The Shield does...not. It's light and springy to a stone wall you press through. The difference between them was immediately apparent in dry handling.
Observations of the Shield trigger are usually among the very first verbalized.
I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind putting it there, but perhaps there's an explanation. Either way, there's sandpaper and/or the dremel. The overall shaping of the trigger guard at that point isn't bad, just the surface texture.
Good info, thank you. I run an aggressive thumbs-forward grip, so I'm a bit perplexed.
I'm going to shoot some crappy ammo through it to see if I can find a threshold or common variable for the problem. The CCI Blazer 115s, and the Herters load thereof, are usually good for finding it. PMC 115 is also pretty marginal, so I'll run down some of that too.
It might be time to just take a couple thousand to the range and run it in a session to see what happens.
The list of requests is growing. I'm trying to stay within a narrow size range of logical competitors to each other. There are larger and smaller options but results can get diluted pretty easily. The PM9 might be more correctly described as a micro. Others like the Ruger SR9C and Sig 239 may be approaching a large-subcompact or small compact class.
I've only had two responses from folks with heartburn so I'm still open to useful input.
Have you thought about moving from the Shield to carry the XDs 9?
Have you thought about moving from the Shield to carry the XDs 9?
I'm not carrying the Shield, only shooting it at this point. The purpose of all this was to shake down the shooting attributes of these guns, the Shield especially, so that when others ask about them or show up with them my experience is little deeper. Quantifiable, too.
I have more confidence in the manufacturing and long term viability of the M&P autos than the XD autos. By type, I favor the former over the latter for life support purposes.
G34Shooter
08-01-13, 13:16
I'm not carrying the Shield, only shooting it at this point. The purpose of all this was to shake down the shooting attributes of these guns, the Shield especially, so that when others ask about them or show up with them my experience is little deeper. Quantifiable, too.
I have more confidence in the manufacturing and long term viability of the M&P autos than the XD autos. By type, I favor the former over the latter for life support purposes.
I used to be opposed to any of the XD line, the XDs and it's minor changes has me slightly more open minded to them now. Glock and S&W QC issues fluctuating all over the map doesn't help matters either. I guess I'll have to find out how reliable my XDs is personally.
I used to be opposed to any of the XD line, the XDs and it's minor changes has me slightly more open minded to them now. Glock and S&W QC issues fluctuating all over the map doesn't help matters either. I guess I'll have to find out how reliable my XDs is personally.
I'm happy to give credit where credit is due. The XDs did better than I expected, and I don't mind saying that of the LC9, Shield, and XDs, I've enjoyed shooting the XDs most. It's also about context. Most folks will buy these, carry much, and shoot little. Few folks put up bullseyes at distance or wring out their guns in volume. Most of the differences beyond "this one feels good" and price point will escape them. For most, I think the XDs is likely to meet their needs and is a viable option for them. (Did I actually just write that?? :D)
I'd be interested in your continued observations of the XDs.
Beat Trash
08-01-13, 13:34
I've had a Shield since the first week they were announced. I recently picked up a second one for my wife.
The first Shield had a nice trigger, but too heavy.
The second Shield had a rougher trigger.
Both guns had an Apex hard sear installed. The difference is amazing, and shows with a corresponding reduction of groups.
My older gun has the older barrel with the original rate of twist. THe newer gun has the two dots under the chamber, indicating it has the newer rate of twist that S&W is putting in all of it's M&P 9mm line.
The initial range session with the newer gun resulted in less than stelar accuracy, compared with what I am used to with the older Shield. I'm holding off on getting overly excited though until I have a chance to shoot both guns together, and in a more controlled environment.
To date, both guns have been 100% reliable.
I use my older Shield for a BUG while on duty and in uniform. For this roll, I'm more than satisfied.
G34Shooter
08-01-13, 13:36
I'm happy to give credit where credit is due. The XDs did better than I expected, and I don't mind saying that of the LC9, Shield, and XDs, I've enjoyed shooting the XDs most. It's also about context. Most folks will buy these, carry much, and shoot little. Few folks put up bullseyes at distance or wring out their guns in volume. Most of the differences beyond "this one feels good" and price point will escape them. For most, I think the XDs is likely to meet their needs and is a viable option for them. (Did I actually just write that?? :D)
I'd be interested in your continued observations of the XDs.
I wish I had the same time and $ I had last year testing Apex's extractor. Oh well, if something turns up I'll report it here and on P-T.
Both guns had an Apex hard sear installed. The difference is amazing, and shows with a corresponding reduction of groups.
I've been looking at the DCAEK kit, but don't want to plug in that variable until I've felt that I've maxed out what I'm capable of without it.
My older gun has the older barrel with the original rate of twist. THe newer gun has the two dots under the chamber, indicating it has the newer rate of twist that S&W is putting in all of it's M&P 9mm line.
When I spoke with the backshop guys at SW, they advised that the 9mm Shield has always had the current twist rate. The changes applied to the others.
UPDATE 08/10
Since my last update I’ve been doing more dry fire at home trying to get along with the trigger. As I work, I find that trigger finger placement relative to the hinge has more effect on my press than I thought. My hand size and finger length give me an inclination to place it higher above the hinge, sometimes in contact with the receiver, producing a poorer press. The sweet spot is lower, at or below the hinge, giving me a better press. The downside is that it forces a tweak in my finger and hand due to their length. The narrowness of the grip and long oval have been interesting in these ways.
I went to the range today for more live fire. I was more in the mood for shooting than contemplation and analysis, so I brought several LE courses of fire and assorted loads to run.
EXERCISE 1
D5 to an ISPC A-Zone from concealment, Federal 124gr Hydra-Shok (P9HSG1)
7yd, 3.62 C
7yd, 3.00 C
EXERCISE 2
D5 to a B8 center from concealment, Federal 124gr Hydra-Shok (P9HSG1)
7yd, 4.10, 46/50
7yd, 3.47, 42/50
EXERCISE 3-6
A series of LE qualification courses to run the gun against different times and scoring. These courses combined offer static marksmanship measures; dual targets; reloads; kneeling, prone, barricade shooting; and failure drills.
South Dakota state LE qualification, 50 rounds, 3-25yds, Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE)
On the web: NA
B21 target, 48/50
LAPD SWAT “A Course”, 50rds, 3-25yds, Federal 147gr Hydra-Shok (P9HS2G)
B21 target, 45/50
Nebraska state LE qualification, 50 rounds, 3-15yds, Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO (Q4318)
On the web: http://www.nletc.state.ne.us/pdfs/FireQual.pdf
IALEFI Q target, 48/50
One FTE at the 7yd line (see pic below), cleared without issue
Maine state LE qualification, 50 rounds, 3-25yds, 124gr Hydra-Shok (P9HSG1)
On the web: http://www.maine.gov/dps/mcja/forms/documents/LawEnforcementPistolQualificationCourse2011.doc
TQ15 target, 45/50
EXERCISE 7
F.A.S.T., (Fundamentals, Accuracy, and Speed Test), Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE)
Run1: 7.24, -1H, 9.24 w/ penalties
Run2: 7.08 Clean
Run3: 7.07 Clean
EXERCISE 8
5rd slow fire to B8, 10yds, Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE), 45-1X/50
SUMMARY
I’m not seeing significant differences in scores and times, but they are improving. More important is that I’m trending greater consistency in results on target which helps bring everything into sync with the gun a little better.
Shooting the 9BLE in this gun wasn’t as brisk as I thought it would be. Had I shot the gun without knowing what was in it, I would have guessed it was a different load.
There was one FTE this session (noted above), and another soft 6:00 ejection. I perceived a second, weak 6:00 ejection but I can’t tell you anything meaningful about it. Here’s a pic from today, which is exactly what occurred with the others as well.
The spacer sleeve on the 8rd magazine has worn to the point that it moves on its own somewhat freely. Back in the box it goes. I found it to be without much use anyway, so nothing is lost.
I have a nice little hot spot from the safety lever on the inside of my strong side thumb from the manual safety. Less wear on my middle finger than before, but the texturing still has to go.
After the last session, I started carrying the Shield a bit. In pocket carry, I’ve found it too tall for fast presentation in most pants, even those with generous pocket openings. The Shield is very ankle friendly and rides nicely there. It rode well attached to body armor under a uniform shirt.
I’m actively looking for a 3:00 OWB option as well. I want the smallest possible footprint on the belt, minimalist form, but quality construction. Feel free to add your recommendations here in the thread.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 243
Shield cumulative total: 719
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3913Large.jpg
QuickStrike
08-10-13, 20:12
Damn I better test mine some more. Only about 112 rounds through it, so far no probs.
I've had my Shield since April 12/May 12. I'm up to 2.2k rounds thru it. I have shot as many as 450 rounds thru it in 1 session.
I personally cannot stand any handgun without a rubber grip. On polymer guns, I hate the Hogue slip on grip, and I have tried just about all of the various aftermarket grips. I just use a piece of bicycle innertube on polymer handguns now. Ugly, but works.
I didn't even like any M&Ps before I bought my Shield - the range guys talked me into renting one back in April 2012. I was hooked, and tracked one down 2 days later. I then sold my Kahr PM9 a couple of days after that.
I have small hands. The shorter mag is perfect for me, actually. Maybe my smaller hands give me less problems for this roughness talked about on this thread?
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/grip_zpsdc76accc.jpg~original
UPDATE
Several folks asked for a comparison between the Shield and the M&P 9C. I had originally ruled it out, as the project was intended to compare offerings of smaller, sub-compact models. The 9C is much more of a mid-size, compact auto having more in common with Glocks 19/23 and others of the same size and weight class. Nonetheless, it’s likely that folks looking at the smaller guns in the M&P line will consider both, so a comparison isn’t unthinkable.
EXERCISE 1
300pt aggregate, B8 bullseye @ 25yds, 10rds each off-hand, strong hand only, support hand only. Ammunition used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620).
M&P Shield
OH: 49-1X (Second run: 78)
SHO: 32
WHO: 34
Total, 3 runs: 115
M&P 9C
OH: 79-2X (Second run: 78-1X)
SHO: 20
WHO: 69
Total, 3 runs: 168
The 9C is more forgiving of error than the Shield, but still required more of me than I was able to provide. I did note that the second run of the off-hand portion with the Shield was the best run to date.
EXERCISE 2
D2 from concealment to 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. Ammunition used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620).
M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.90
Highest clean: 3.33
Average, all runs: 2.87
M&P 9C
Lowest clean: 2.65
Highest clean: 2.82
Average, all runs: 2.85
There wasn’t a lot of difference between these Shield runs and previous sessions, with about the same number of misses. Not unexpectedly, the misses from the 9C were less dramatic than those with the Shield.
During these exercises, I had multiple 6:00 ejections from the Shield, at least two of which struck my right hand.
EXERCISE 3
D2 from concealment to a B21 repair center, 11x13” @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. Ammunition used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620).
M&P Shield
Lowest: 2.01
Highest: 2.42
Average, all runs: 2.26
M&P 9C
Lowest: 1.99
Highest: 2.35
Average, all runs: 2.23
I changed this one up a bit to assess how much more time the smaller 3x5 card required over a larger high thoracic target area, and what the difference would be between the Shield and 9C. The difference in averages between the two target zones ending up being almost exactly the same at 0.62 for the 9C and 0.61 for the Shield.
EXERCISE 4 - 5
Two LE qualification courses to run the gun against different times and scoring. Only the Shield was used for these.
Kansas CPOST, 50rds, 3-25yds, Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2)
On the web: http://www.kscpost.org/target.php
TQ15 target, scoring inner ring only, 40/50
Georgia POST, 30rds, 3-25yds, Federal 147gr JHP (9MS)
On the web: http://www.gapost.org/pdf_file/gsac05.pdf
TQ15 target, scoring inner ring only, 26/30
During the Kansas COF the Shield stove-piped again at round ~28, or ~108 rounds in this session. All rounds were dropped at the 25.
SUMMARY
Overall, there was less difference between the Shield and 9C than I had anticipated. While the performance of each was not exhaustively compared, the exercises conducted were informative.
In shooting and dry-firing the 9C, I had the same trigger finger placement quirks as with the Shield. The tendency to over-insert my finger was less pronounced with the 9C than the Shield. A smaller hand may not notice.
The 9C had a weight and balance to it that I perceived heavier than its measured weight. I think this is more unfamiliarity than anything.
Like most other compacts and subcompacts, I did not care for the grip extension on the 9C’s magazine, though at least this one is fixed rather than a sleeve.
The erratic ejection of the Shield continues to frustrate and the gun likely just needs to go home to S&W for their attention. This would give them the opportunity to assess the trigger attributes as well.
Though much lower than usually acceptable, the 78/100 bullseye score was decent within context. The gun is clearly capable of shooting, but is an unforgiving thing.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 160
Shield cumulative total: 879
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3921a.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3927a.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3931a.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3728.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3939a.jpg
I work for gander mountain and I just got an email today from smith and wesson word around the campfire is there is a possible recall on the shield 9 and 40
jerrysimons
08-20-13, 22:24
I've had my Shield since April 12/May 12. I'm up to 2.2k rounds thru it. I have shot as many as 450 rounds thru it in 1 session.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/grip_zpsdc76accc.jpg~original
Have you had any malfunctions in 2200 rounds? If so what kind and with what ammo?
Thanks
QuickStrike
08-21-13, 14:26
412 rounds now.
One failure to ignite with win white box, and one stovepipe with PMC bronze.
There was a good primer strike with the win ammo so I'll count that as ammo induced. Not so sure about the stovepipe...
I'm up to 1krds thru mine with 2 ammo related issues from reloaded ammo that was missing primers. Outside of that it has been flawless.
http://texasgunblog.com/archives/12455
Smith and Wesson Announces 2013 Safety Recall on the Shield Pistol
To All Smith & Wesson Customers
Smith & Wesson is in the process of announcing a Safety Alert relating to the lower trigger on M&P Shield pistols. We should be in a position to provide you with more details as to the scope of the affected pistols in a few days. In the meantime, please stop all sales and shipments of M&P Shield pistols pending further notice. We appreciate your assistance in ensuring that the products we provide to customers meet our high standards for quality and safety.
WickedWillis
08-21-13, 16:43
I really want to know what the exact trigger issue is.
http://texasgunblog.com/archives/12455
I really want to know what the exact trigger issue is.
yeah me too, it might have been the problem I've been having in relation to my safety not engaging.
WickedWillis
08-21-13, 16:47
I will test my safety and trigger with the safety off and on (obviously unloaded) when I get off work tonight, hopefully we are all good.
yeah me too, it might have been the problem I've been having in relation to my safety not engaging.
I've been in contact with S&W to request return authorization and a shipping label. The CSR advised I would have it in 7-10 days. This was before the information on the safety alert was posted, so we'll see how that affects timing. I'd bet the phone is ringing off the hook right now.
armed_zebra
08-21-13, 17:42
Can anybody be a little more specific as to what the recall is for?
Can anybody be a little more specific as to what the recall is for?
I'm sure once Smith and Wesson comes out with it, it will be posted up in this thread.
I am VERY speculative of the FTE picture shown. Appears physics defying.
I cannot fathom how the primer end of the brass is sticking up. Certainly not what a "stovepipe" normally looks like.
I work for gander mountain and I just got an email today from smith and wesson word around the campfire is there is a possible recall on the shield 9 and 40
Not on all of them. Only about a months worth and not all guns have an issue.
So basically if your trigger resets, then you are good.
C4
Beat Trash
08-22-13, 18:50
I'm not good at posting links. But S&W has a message reference the Shield issue on their company web site. It lists pictures and instructions on how to check your Shield to see if there is an issue or not.
Basically, with an unloaded gun, gently pull the bottom of the trigger back to disengage the safety within the trigger. It should move back and forth freely. The bottom of the trigger should move back to its at rest position under spring pressure when you let it go.
Unless you have never used an M&P at all, I would assume if your gun was one of the few with an issue, you would know it immediately when the trigger didn't return as it was supposed to.
FYI- The gun in this review passes the inspection described in the safety alert, and the function of the trigger safety has not been a concern. However, it is going back to S&W for the ejection and trigger quality issues. The pre-paid return label is now in hand.
I am VERY speculative of the FTE picture shown. Appears physics defying.
I cannot fathom how the primer end of the brass is sticking up. Certainly not what a "stovepipe" normally looks like.
It's a head scratcher. I'd be interested in any theories you may have.
EricTheRed
08-23-13, 03:17
Great thread, and as others have said, it's what I'm here for. Thank you. FWIW my Shield has roughly 1k rds through it with zero issues, hope yours get ironed out. A little epoxy/ super glue/ whatever works wonders on the 8 rd mag sleeve BTW.
UPDATE
The Shield in this thread is back from S&W. It was returned for the previously mentioned stoppages and erratic ejection, as well as the quality of the trigger press. Return documentation in the package indicates:
CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: EJECTION
REPAIRED: BARREL MODIFICATION
REPAIRED: ADJUSTED EXTRACTOR
REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC
Preliminary inspection indicates that the extractor was not replaced, but has greater tension. There is no indication of what the barrel modification is. Trigger attributes are unchanged.
When shipped, the gun was sent to S&W with the mags that were sold with the gun, one 7-round, one 8-round. It returned with one 7-round magazine which was obviously used, but not mine. The 8-round magazine was not included.
Timeline:
08/21 - Contacted S&W warranty/repair for RMA and pre-paid shipping label
08/22 - Recieved email with RMA and printable label late in the afternoon
08/23 - Shield shipped to S&W via FedEx
08/29 - Logged in at S&W
08/30 - Call to techs for status check, verified log in date
09/06 - Email notice of return shipment, with FedEx tracking number
09/09 - Delivered
Live fire is on hold until at least two mags of known origin are on hand to avoid additional variables.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsQWGS-P9Pk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsQWGS-P9Pk
(For others, that's a link to the S&W inspection procedure and recall criteria.)
Not applicable to this gun.
They shorted you out of the 8 round Mag you sent in...geesh I'd be unglued right now
Will S&W be offering used, like new, 8 round magazines in the near future?
UPDATE
Communications with S&W have been mostly productive, but with caveats. I called tech support and asked for greater specifics on the work performed, and was advised of these clarifications.
REPAIRED: BARREL MODIFICATION
The feedramp was reportedly polished.
REPAIRED: ADJUSTED EXTRACTOR
A new extractor was installed. This is…odd…as the extractor that was originally in the gun bears unique markings that remain present now.
REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC
Self explanatory. The gun meets factory specifications, good, bad, or otherwise.
When I asked specifically about my magazines, the tech advised that none had been logged in when the gun was received. He was very gracious however, and said that two new magazines would be ordered for me. He could not advise when they would ship as they did not have any, demand was high, and that “it may be awhile.”
I had originally intended to leave the gun as-is until new magazines arrived. If the gun met factory specs when shipped back, the used magazine that shipped with it presumably did as well. Further, if this gun had been the only defensive gun for another customer, they would be stuck with that magazine until others arrived. Therefore, it seems only fair to keep this rolling and rounds going downrange, letting the chips fall where they might.
I worked in a few exercises and another comparison between other range work today. I had received a request to run a Sig P290 subcompact 9mm. See it online here:
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p290rs.aspx
Ammunition for the Shield today was the TulAmmo 115gr FMJ steel case. It was the worst ammunition I had on hand to check S&W repairs with. If it will function with lesser ammo, there may be hope.
The P290 used Black Hills Ammunition JHP-XTPs, either 115 or 124gr, both in +P.
EXERCISE 1
B8 bullseye @ 25yds, 10rds off-hand.
M&P Shield
Not fired in this exercise.
Sig P290
OH: 41-0X
OH: 53-3X
See comments in the summary section for more on this.
EXERCISE 2
D2 from concealment to 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.
M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.98
Highest clean: 2.98
Average, all runs: 2.81
Sig P290
Lowest clean: 2.82
Highest clean: 3.18
Average, all runs: 3.19
EXERCISE 3
D2 from concealment to a B21 repair center, 11x13” @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.
M&P Shield
Lowest: 1.84
Highest: 2.63
Average, all runs: 2.20
Sig P290
Lowest: 2.28
Highest: 2.53
Average, all runs: 2.43
EXERCISE 4
D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds.
M&P Shield
3yds, 2.59 C
5yds, 2.72 C
7yds, 3.21 -2
10yds, 4.07 -1
Sig P290
3yds, 2.82 -1
5yds, 3.10 C
7yds, 4.16 -2
10yds, 4.62 -1
EXERCISE 5
F.A.S.T.
M&P Shield
Not fired in this exercise.
Sig P290
8.29, -3B, 11.29 w/ penalties
7.89, -1H, -1B, 10.89 w/ penalties
8.31, -1H, 10.31 w/ penalties
SUMMARY
The Shield functioned with the TulAmmo. Ejection was consistent without stoppage for the 60rds fired. 60rds isn’t particularly demonstrative of anything though, as the previous stoppages occurred only after ~100rds. Lengthier range sessions are planned.
I fired all the exercises through the P290 first, rather than alternating guns. Observations on the P290:
The grip angle of the P290 is quite a bit different than the Shield. After switching back to the Shield I pointed it high on presentation repeatedly and had to make deliberate effort for awhile to bring them back. I didn’t have other Sigs handy to compare the P290 to, so I don’t know if the angle is unique or typical to Sigs. I believe it to be the former rather than the latter.
The small grip and my large hands presented a variety of quirks.
The magazine release on the P290 is tall, and on other models might be considered extended. It sat right below my middle finger, and I fully expected to drop magazines while shooting. None dropped, but I think it’s probably inevitable. I would also watch out for this with certain holsters, ensuring the button is adequately shrouded. Shooters with smaller hands will probably find the button size and placement to their liking.
There is a bump on the inside of the trigger guard just ahead of the trigger, slightly narrower than the guard itself. If I released the trigger while shooting, the recoil and muzzle rise caused my trigger finger to bounce off this bump rather uncomfortably.
The OEM night sights had a smooth, flat finish that shined when backlit, making sight picture difficult at times.
The trigger press was smooth and agreeable. There is a slight hitch near the break than can be felt when pressed deliberately, but when pressing through at speed isn’t noticeable. Travel is obviously longer than the Shield, but not overly so. Certainly, not as bad as the LC9 previously discussed. Like with other subcompacts, getting a good grip and trigger finger placement brought my fingertip in contact with my support hand palm at times.
The short height of the P290 makes it feel heavier than it is due to the short height and weight distribution. Nonetheless, it’s not much to any heavier than several others.
There were three different magazine configurations with my sample. One six round magazine had a flat, flush-fit floorplate. Another six round magazine had a contoured finger rest style of floorplate. Another was an eight round magazine with a spacer sleeve. The spacer sleeve was problematic, and prevented the mag from locking in place during several reload runs. It required a very deliberate effort to seat the magazine. Removal of some material from the sleeve may help. As the gun was not mine, I elected to remove the sleeve altogether, and the problem went away.
I suspect a shooter with a much smaller hand, esp an existing Sig or long-pull DA shooter, would find this gun to their liking. For me, it just doesn’t work and I kept my session with it short.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 60
Shield cumulative total: 939
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0026.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0028.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0030.jpg
UPDATE
I took the Shield to a new-shooter event today where it was placed in a pool of guns for attendees to choose from. It was selected by three shooters, one of which had some prior Shield experience. As the event is only a handgun exposure session no specific exercises are conducted. Shooting consists of casual, slow fire at close, generous targets.
Two types of ammunition were used in this gun through the day, both from Black Hills. The first was remanufactured 115gr FMJ, 30 rounds total. The second was the new manufacture 115gr JHP-EXP, 50 rounds total. The EXP is marketed as “extra power”, loaded hotter than a standard 115gr but not to +P criteria.
Watching the Shield at various points, ejection was brisk to 3-4:00 and several feet in distance. A few rounds would occasionally eject at the 6:00, all of which were EXPs. At or about round #76 the gun stopped, leaving an empty horizontal case in the port with a round right behind it. A photo after I locked the slide back:
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/ShieldStovepipe9-14.jpg
Some have offered that the Shield has inherently low and insufficient extractor tension, making it prone to extractor bounce. Higher pressure rounds would logically increase the likelihood of a problem. Coincidentally, just yesterday I obtained 1000rds of another EXP-type round to run in this Shield for that reason. That a problem surfaced in so few rounds this session, and with a high quality known-good load, is disappointing.
I’ll report back after contact with S&W on Monday.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 80
Shield cumulative total: 1019
Very thorough write up. It's nice to see such detail and time put into your post. However, I'd like to just point out that the shield is actually a double action mechanically. Or more accurately a striker fired double action. Some may call it a single action pull though, as the trigger doesn't automatically reset unless the slide is cycled. Similar to a Glock.
Very thorough write up. It's nice to see such detail and time put into your post. However, I'd like to just point out that the shield is actually a double action mechanically. Or more accurately a striker fired double action. Some may call it a single action pull though, as the trigger doesn't automatically reset unless the slide is cycled. Similar to a Glock.
Thanks for the compliment.
Do double check the mechanical criteria for the SA, DA descriptors against the M&P mechanisms, however.
jerrysimons
09-15-13, 01:01
Thanks Skintop for continuing to update this thread!
I took my Sheild out to the range this week. Between my wife and I we shot 120ds of CCI blazer brass and PMC bronze. The gun was cleaned and lubed with Fireclean before we went. For the first 70rds I shot it did not malfunction, but when I traded with my wife she had a troubling misfire experience leading to a bizarre FTE.
She reported that after inserting a loaded a mag, chambering a round, and pressing the trigger, it did not fire. She then removed the magazine and pressed checked. It did chamber a round and after returning to battery she fired the round (w/o a mag) which resulted in this FTE:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/2FAA87C2-6036-448B-8AB9-6E1301E07540-220-0000000CD24DBFA5_zps9af30359.jpg
She said the trigger was dead when she pulled it, that it did pull all the way (manuel safety disengaged) but did not click (not a hard primer). Now if a FTE in only 70rds wasn't troubling, a deadtrigger surely is, especially when it is second hand information. Just to make sure she knew what she was reporting I unloaded the gun and ran through all the different trigger scenarios with her. 1) try to pull trigger with safety engaged, 2) dry fire with trigger set, 3) pull trigger after dry fire without resetting it. She confirmed that the third option is what she felt, that it did pull, but did not click.
After this happened the gun fired properly for another 50rds or so.
I don't know what to think at this point. This gun has been 100% when I have been the one shooting it (about 340rds total) and never once over 1000 dry fires has the trigger been dead. I am starting to wonder if it has something against women (see my previous post #30) :confused:
I suppose I will keep putting it through it's paces and fire several hundred more rounds through it myself. We'll see what happens.
Also, the dang white sticker from the stock front sight fell out during this range trip, I remedied this with a red sharpie paint pen.
jerrysimons
09-16-13, 20:44
I put 200rds of PMC Bronze through the Shield today. My hopes were high but I am now considering sending it in to S&W.
The gun was cleaned and lubed with Fireclean before the range trip.
Like Skintop previously noted malfunctions typically start happening in high round count sessions, it was smooth sailing until round 100:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/33EA30BD-AE6E-4D45-AD73-F13848AB1138-1380-00000166903A39FD_zps9e062c84.jpg
round 159:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/1C9E1752-45E4-4084-B155-77B04D40A813-1380-00000166B608B225_zps295a11a7.jpg
and round 189:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/2BF75D4A-F3AC-446B-8E27-F994AD162BE1-1380-00000166E29C9F09_zps046a3b47.jpg
I know using PMC bronze doesn't exactly eliminate problematic ammo as a variable but three identical FTE in 200rds seems excessive. It looks like the extractor is simply skipping over the case rim? These photos were taken as the gun was after firing, I did not lock the slide back for the photo. Anyone have any ideas?
Concerning the front sight, my paint pen fix doesn't reflect much light compared to the stock white dots. It doesn't look that way in the picture because of the flash but the range was quite dark and it was slow to have the rear notch more visible than the front post. The paint works in daylight but is only a temporary solution until I can get night sights. Perhaps white paint pen would have been a better choice in the meantime.
Also, no dead trigger this trip, or during several hundred dry fires last night. I am going to chalk what my wife described up to something lost in communication. Maybe it wasnt the first round of the mag and she didn't let the trigger quite reset before trying to to squeez it again... idk.
At this point I am wondering if I should test another few hundred rounds of different ammo (I only have Remington UMC now, not much better than PMC if I am not mistaken) or just get the ball rolling in sending the sucker in :(
At this point I am wondering if I should test another few hundred rounds of different ammo (I only have Remington UMC now, not much better than PMC if I am not mistaken) or just get the ball rolling in sending the sucker in :(
I think you have enough data to work with, and I wouldn't invest any more time or ammunition in your Shield.
Contact S&W and request a pre-paid shipping label. It may take a day or two for them to turn one around due to the volume they are experiencing right now. While you wait, prepare a detailed account of your issues citing the ammunition you're using for inclusion in your shipping box. I would also make a witness mark on your extractor, ejector, magazines, and followers to see what parts are exchanged.
Don't use the CS email contact below, it is not effective. Please do report back your timeline and results as they flow. I appreciate your input.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757817_-1_757814_757812_image
CUSTOMER SUPPORT
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
Tel: 1-800-331-0852, ext. 4125 • 413-781-8300
E-mail: qa@smith-wesson.com
UPDATE (09/19)
The Shield has been returned to S&W and repair is pending. Communications with them have been fast and effective. Unfortunately, that makes the Shield unavailable for direct comparison when other subcompacts become available. Last night, I had two Kahr models out, PM9 and Mk9. You can see them here:
PM9: http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp
MK9: http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-MK9.asp
I ran them in what has become a fairly standard stack of exercises, as follows.
EXERCISE 1
B8 bullseye @ 25yds, 10rds off-hand.
PM9
OH: 60-0X
MK9
OH: 36-0X
EXERCISE 2
D2 from concealment to 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.
PM9
Lowest clean: 2.71
Highest clean: 2.90
Average, all runs: 2.89
MK9
Lowest clean: 2.70
Highest clean: 2.87
Average, all runs: 2.79
EXERCISE 3
D2 from concealment to a B21 repair center, 11x13” @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.
PM9
Lowest clean: 2.30
Highest clean: 2.66
Average, all runs: 2.50
MK9
Lowest Clean: 2.27
Highest Clean: 2.64
Average, all runs: 2.38
EXERCISE 4
D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds.
PM9
3yds, 2.80 C
5yds, 3.63 C
7yds, 3.23 -1
10yds, 3.61 -1
MK9
3yds, 3.63 C
5yds, 3.30 -1
7yds, 3.54 C
10yds, 4.00 -1
EXERCISE 5
F.A.S.T.
PM9
7.58, -1H, -1B, 10.58 w/ penalties
7.64, -2H, -1B, 12.64 w/ penalties
10.10, -1H, -1B, 13.10 w/ penalties
MK9
8.25, -1H, 0B, 10.25 w/ penalties
7.80, -1H, -2B, 11.80 w/ penalties *stovepipe, see summary
8.58, -2H, 0B, 12.58 w/ penalties
SUMMARY
Exercises 1-4 were shot with Black Hills Ammunition 115gr FMJ (new). The FAST tests were fired with 115gr JHP +P (new). With the exception of the FAST, all shooting was done with the standard flush-fit six round magazine. On the FAST, I utilized a 7rd magazine with extended floorplate.
This was not my first experience with either the PM9 or MK9, but those prior experiences were not as deliberate in construction or quantified.
These two Kahrs have the nicest out of the box triggers I have seen in these comparisons yet. They were glass smooth, moderate in weight, broke clean, and travel was decent. While both were good, the MK9 edged out the PM9 in this regard.
I expected there to be greater difference in performance between the two due to the weight. I suspect the 115 FMJ ammunition was mild enough that a few ounces didn’t make much difference. There was greater distinction in the FAST tests, which did utilize a full power defensive load.
There was a single stoppage (stovepipe) with the MK9 this session on run #2 of the FAST. As it was on the second round fired, I restarted that run. That was a shame as the time to the first round, a hit, was ~1.70. It may have been a fluke, but I’ll take a fast low% fluke anytime.
My greatest difficulty with these guns was getting a decent grip on them in the holster. Fumbled draws and/or grip repositioning added time to the clock and were obvious contributors to my misses. This became apparent from the first D2 rounds fired. I attribute this again to a large hand, but smart holster selection and optimized ride height may help as well.
I think this is an area where the Shield excels. Despite it’s size it retains a full-size feel in grip, especially as its acquired, and regardless of carry method.
Cumulative Shield round count remains the same: 1019
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0032.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0033.jpg
jerrysimons
09-24-13, 23:26
Thanks Skintop for reviewing the Kahrs:cool:
I shot 200 rounds through the Shield today for good measure before I send it in. Thank You for the info Skintop!
Rounds number 1-50 were PMC Bronze, 50-200 Federal RTP 115rg FMJ.
Round 69: FTE exactly like the photos above (no point in posting it).
Round 170: failure to lock back on empty, low pressure round?
So far about 800rds total on the gun. 5 FTE in the last 520rds and about 10 or 12 FTE overall.
1 FTE every 80rds is pretty abysmal. Hopefully Smith will fix this because I rather like the Shield.
With continued shooting, however, I have realized the trigger guard is cramped (and I have small hands). Coming off the frame to press the trigger with my indexed finger is not as smooth as with the Walther PPS. I have to pre-curve my finger in order to meet the trigger face without getting caught up in the trigger guard. With the PPS I can just slide down off the frame into the trigger guard and squeeze.
Have you had any issues of this sort Skintop? Or any recommendations for my grip? I grip the front of the handle between my two joints on my fingers.
Thanks again!
With continued shooting, however, I have realized the trigger guard is cramped (and I have small hands). Coming off the frame to press the trigger with my indexed finger is not as smooth as with the Walther PPS. I have to pre-curve my finger in order to meet the trigger face without getting caught up in the trigger guard. With the PPS I can just slide down off the frame into the trigger guard and squeeze.
Have you had any issues of this sort Skintop? Or any recommendations for my grip? I grip the front of the handle between my two joints on my fingers.
Thanks again!
I'm not sure what's happening here in your description, and I have limited experience with the PPS to draw a comparison. Post a picture of your grip?
UPDATE (09/30)
My Shield is back. Here’s the timeline for this return, and the contents of the repair documentation included in the package.
09/16 - RMA and pre-paid shipping label received via email.
09/16 - Shield shipped to S&W via FedEx.
09/30 - Returned. No prior notice of shipment.
CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: EJECTION
REPAIRED: REPLACE BBL.
REPAIRED: REPLACE EXTRACTOR
REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC
REPAIRED: REPLACE MAG
The work appears to have been performed as described. The barrel is obviously new, and the extractor lacks the marking(s) I made when the gun went in.
There were three magazines in the package. The first is the 7rd magazine they sent in the first return. It returned with a white stripe marked across the bottom and I believe the spring was replaced. The other two were a 7rd and 8rd magazine which appear new-ish. There was some fouling on the follower of the 8rd magazine, and none on the 7rd. Both of those magazines were marked with a black stripe across the top which appears to be a marker. Anyone know what these markings signify?
Test firing will follow.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0101a.jpg
WickedWillis
09-30-13, 17:12
My magazines have that black stripe as well, I'd love to know what it signifies.
jerrysimons
09-30-13, 18:35
My magazines have that black stripe as well, I'd love to know what it signifies.
If I remember correctly my Shield mags came new with the black chalk across the top of the followers. My guess was that it helped packaging line persons to clearly see the caliber marking on the follower to distinguish 9mm from .40cal mags.
UPDATE (09/30-2)
I made it to the range tonight for another session with the Shield. Prior to heading out it was inspected, cleaned, and lubed. I also reviewed previous range sessions and packed loads that had been involved in stoppages documented here. Those loads are identified below.
I shot some different exercises tonight that moved a little faster and ran the round count up a little quicker, as follows.
EXERCISE 1 - Draw from concealment, fire two rounds to an 8” circle, one to a 3x5” index card, then two more to the 8” circle, at 10yds. 10 runs for 50rds.
Run 1, Federal 147gr HydraShok (#P9HS2G) 50rds. FTE on round #8, one distinct 6:00 ejection hit my head.
Run 2, Federal 124gr HydraShok (#P9HS1G), 50rds. No problems.
Run 3, Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO (Q4318), 50rds. I ran this one at 7yds to play with speed and accuracy balance. Soft ejections to the left, right, 6:00, and straight up. One hit the slide on the way back down.
Run 4, Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2), 50rds. A few 6:00 ejections, 1 to my head.
EXERCISE 2 - FAM TPC
Run 1, Black Hills 115gr GDHP +P, 30rds. No problems. 145/150, NG on stages 1, 4, 6.
Run 2, Black Hills 115gr JHP-EXP, 30rds. No problems. 150/150, NG on stages 1, 4.
EXERCISE 3 - Nebraska LETC Instructor Qualification Course
Black Hills 115gr JHP-XTP +P, 30rds. FTE on round #28. 27/30 = Pass
SUMMARY
When I experienced the early stovepipe at round #8, my first thought was to stop shooting and box up the gun again. I wanted to give the Shield every possible benefit of the doubt though, hoping that the new barrel and new extractor needed a few rounds to settle in. The distinct 6:00 ejection thereafter didn’t increase confidence, but was thought to be part of the same process.
As I moved into the 124 HydraShoks, the gun went through its cycle of operation without issue. The 124s had previously stovepiped, so the lack thereof this session may have been a good sign.
After the success with the 124gr HydraShok, I chose the 124gr Winchester. Winchester cases had been identified as a common variable in similar problems reported by other Shield owners. While the gun didn’t stop with this ammo, it had the most erratic and multi-directional ejection of all the loads.
More duty ammo followed, this time the Federal 147gr HST. Ejection was less erratic than with the Winchester, but noticeable.
With that quantity of standard pressure ammunition fired, I brought out the BHA 115gr EXP and +P to see if slide velocity would overrun extractor tension. 30rds of the EXP and +P ran through the TPCs without issue, and 27 more rounds into the NLETC course. The last stoppage for the day came on round #28. At that point, I fired the remaining two rounds to finish the course, scored the target, and called it a day. I had the information I needed.
In addition to these issues, I made another observation tonight. While packing up, I noticed that migrating lube from the muzzle and recoil spring assembly had a dark brown hue to it. Not consistent with fouling, and not apparently another oil. It was something else, perhaps lingering machine oil or preservative? As noted above, the gun had been cleaned and lubed prior to shooting tonight. I tried to capture a picture of it, but it’s barely discernable in the photos. This is not a fault of the gun, more an oddity.
Photos of the stoppages, in order of occurrence.
Where to go from here?
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 290
Shield cumulative total: 1309
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0103Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0104Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0112Large.jpg
This very small single action auto seemed just made for concealment and I've been looking closely at the 9mm version. After reading this test I am not going to invest the time and effort for something with questionable reliability. Perhaps in a few years when the design has matured and functionality is developed.
I'll stick with proven platforms, S&W 642 and a Glock 26.
jerrysimons
10-01-13, 15:37
Where to go from here?
Oy vey.
Polish the camber?
Send it in again and demand a new pistol or a replacement slide? Not every high round count owner reports extraction problems.
Is this a design flaw or a QC problem? They said it was "in spec", are they just replacing parts and hoping it will work or actually measuring?
This is depressing.
Maybe APEX has something up their sleeve.
Thanks for the update.
Oy vey.
Polish the camber?
Send it in again and demand a new pistol or a replacement slide? Not every high round count owner reports extraction problems.
Is this a design flaw or a QC problem? They said it was "in spec", are they just replacing parts and hoping it will work or actually measuring?
This is depressing.
Maybe APEX has something up their sleeve.
Thanks for the update.
I called my LE rep at S&W to see if he had heard of any problems with the Shield. He said not a one.
So I do not think there is really any issues with the gun. I do think that the OP got a lemon though and am going to see if I can get S&W to replace the gun.
C4
FYI my wife's Shield is now having these same problems with several types of ammo, including Remington 124 gr +P Golden Saber and Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dot. I've talked with a couple of other Shield owners that have had the same problem, and read a few posts about FTE's on several forums. Two folks sent their's in to S&W, to no avail. Still malfunctioning. I'm not sure where to go from here. I don't want to send it in and wait a month only to find out that the gun still won't run. That would seriously piss me off. I think if I can't get it to run 100% with at least a couple of types of carry ammo, I'll just divest myself of the mess like I did with my 2012 Gen 3 G19 that was a dog.
Sounds like you simply have bad luck with firearms. I've come to the conclusion that some folks never really experience issues while others seem them quite frequently.
Sounds like you simply have bad luck with firearms. I've come to the conclusion that some folks never really experience issues while others seem them quite frequently.
Is that a matter of user inexperience, inability, and poor choices that can compound problems? Or is it that the user is shooting enough to produce some of the statistical failures possible for all?
And then there are those that are constantly "improving" their guns, dinking with them, and not telling you about it.
I've found that many users also lack the ability to meaningfully troubleshoot, diagnose, gather data, or trend problems, and simply declare the gun(s) a no-go.
I've found that many users also lack the ability to meaningfully troubleshoot, diagnose, gather data, or trend problems, and simply declare the gun(s) a no-go.
And then there are folks that run a 50 round box of ammo through their pistola, then load it up with the latest and greatest JHP and call it a "GO", i.e. "My gun runs great!".
BTW I just read another account on S&W Forums where, in November of this year, a guy ended up sending his Shield back to S&W three times before they gave up and decided to send him a new pistol, "when they had one available".
SeriousStudent
12-16-13, 21:57
.....
BTW I just read another account on S&W Forums where, in November of this year, a guy ended up sending his Shield back to S&W three times before they gave up and decided to send him a new pistol, "when they had one available".
Funny you should mention that.....
Sounds like you simply have bad luck with firearms. I've come to the conclusion that some folks never really experience issues while others seem them quite frequently.
Actually, FWIW, out of the hundred or so firearms I've owned in my lifetime, I've only had to send two back to the manufacturer (three if I send back this Shield) and they were all in the last two years. I will say that only 30 or so guns that I've had have seen over 5k rounds.
UPDATE (12/15/13)
In late October, I connected with S&W field reps and started the process for a replacement Shield. The replacement was delivered today. Here’s the timeline:
09/30/13- Last range session. Shield dead-lined and shelved.
10/21/13- Contact initiated with S&W field reps.
10/23/13- Call tag issued by the factory. Shield shipped same day.
10/25/13- Shield delivered to the factory.
11/05/13- FFL requested by the factory for shipment of a replacement. Arrangements made and docs provided same day.
12/02/13- Four 8-round magazines received from S&W, gratis.
12/03/13- Status check by me.
12/13/13- Status check by me. Delivery expected before the holidays, pending a production run.
12/15/13- Pistol delivered to me.
In addition to contacts with S&W in the field and the factory, I had opportunity to speak with a number of other Shield owners in detail who provided their own postive and negative experiences, many of which echoed my own. I also received some additional ideas and some motivation to continue to explore the merits and quirks of the Shield line.
Manufacturer: Smith and Wesson
Model: M&P9Shield, p/n 180021
Serial Number: HRY####
Production Date: 12/09/2013
On the web: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w..._757781_757781
The unboxing and inspection for this gun was nearly identical to the first received.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0247Large.jpg
The very fist thing I noticed after some initial handling was the trigger quality. The first Shield had an easy take up to a definitively rough and stiff wall at the break. This Shield has a softer and cleaner break that is not disagreeable. It is the best I’ve seen in a Shield to date. With the others polishing themselves in a bit with use, improvement in this one should improve it further.
Two magazines were received, one seven and one eight round. The two magazines both had black stripes across the top of the followers. The spring in the 7-rd magazine had a white coating on the coils for its full length that was smooth and dry. I was able to wipe spots of it off clean with a rag. The other magazine spring lacked the coating and was gold-ish in color.
The underside of this slide had six dimples machined.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0248Large.jpg
The barrel had two dimples on its underside just ahead of the lugs.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0249Large.jpg
A review of range logs showed the following loads were involved in previous Shield problems:
Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP erratic ejection, stoppage
Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P stoppage
Herters/CCI Blazer 115gr TNJ, no sku erratic ejection
Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G erratic ejection, stoppage
Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138 stoppage
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, #53620 erratic ejection, stoppage
Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G stoppage
Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2 stoppage
With these loads remaining in stock, they will be the first fired through this Shield when it hits the range in the coming days.
Total rounds on the Shield(2) this session: 0
Shield(2) cumulative total: 0
(Thanks out to Grant for the assist in obtaining the replacement.)
Thanks for the update. Hope all goes well.
Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk
UPDATE (12/17/2013)
Results from tonight’s range session using ammunition previously involved in erratic performance or stoppages.
Zero verifications, B8 bullseye
Federal 147gr HST, 10rds, ~5” left @ 25yds, elevation okay
Federal 147gr HST, 10rds, ~3” left @ 10yds, elevation okay
Federal 147gr HydraShoks, 10rds, ~6” left @ 25yds, elevation okay
The HST had produced the best group, putting 7/10 rounds into ~4”. Three remaining fliers landing high opened it up quite a bit. An attempt to adjust the sight on the range was unsuccessful, as progressively bigger hammers failed to move it in the dovetail. Further shooting used a little Kentucky windage at distance for best possible hits.
The HSTs ejected to 4:00 or so. A couple of the HydraShoks ejected rearward.
State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security semi-auto pistol qualification COF
Shot using the remainder of the Federal 147gr HydraShoks, 40rds, A-zone target, 36/40.
During this COF there were multiple, consistent rearward ejection landing on my hat, shoulder, and striking my ear pro. At round #35 on the COF, there was this stoppage:
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0251Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0254Large.jpg
Hackathorn practice drill
Shot using the remainder of the Federal 147gr HSTs, 30rds, A-zone target, 24/30.
No problems.
LAPD D Platoon Qualification A
Run 1- BHA 115gr JHP-EXP, 50rds, Q target, no problems, 48/50
Run 2- BHA 115gr JHP-XTP +P, 50rds, Q target, no problems, 49/50
On this drill I had a failure to feed. This was due to my middle finger hitting the mag release and dropping it just far enough from the pickup rail to prevent feeding.
D5, various distances
Shot using Federal 124gr HydraShoks, 50rds, A-zone targets
3yd- 2.48 C, 2.80 C
5yd- 2.65 C, 2.75 C
7yd- 2.96 -1, 2.98 C
10yd- 3.83 -1, 3.95 -1, plus two more runs that didn’t time reliably due to range interference
There were a few rearward ejections with this load.
The 3, 5, and 7yd results of this drill are the lowest clean times to date with any Shield.
FBI qualification COF
Shot using Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, 50rds, and 10 remaining rounds of the BHA 115gr JHP-EXP, Q target, 59/60. No problems.
These rounds landed in a very nice cluster, most all of which would be contained within a IDPA -0 8” circle.
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
60rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P
50rds Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G
50rds Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2
I had several additional boxes of ammunition that included other previously problematic loads, but will save those for a different session and maybe different shooters.
Throughout all exercises, my hold-offs for distance held true further verifying that the gun needs a sight tweak.
By the end of the session, the trigger developed a nice roll-off at the break and was quite pleasant to shoot. The lack of a reset is annoying but not disabling. In dry fire, it can be heard but it is not palpable at all. Fortunately, even limited forward movement of the trigger is enough to reset it.
The FTE with the 147 HydraShok, so early in the session, was disappointing and left me a bit apprehensive about continuing. Nonetheless, the gun received fair consideration and an opportunity to perform through subsequent drills. I will shoot more of the 147 HydraShoks in the future though to see if issues continue.
Except for the first slow fire exercise for POI, all drills were fired from concealment, 3:00 OWB, under a tee shirt.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 310
Shield(2) cumulative total: 310
SeriousStudent
12-18-13, 00:13
So it would seem that your newer Shield is not as cranky?
Keeping my fingers crossed. I do want to like the Shield.
The shield sights are in their TIGHT. So tight, that you are going to need an MGW sight press tool if you want to move them. A normal brass bunch won't move them much and quite honestly (as I remove Shield sight weekly), you will need a steel punch and vice. This of course ruins the sights.
C4
So it would seem that your newer Shield is not as cranky?
Keeping my fingers crossed. I do want to like the Shield.
Not nearly as cranky, and more user-friendly. Certainly, already more functional.
I, too want to like it.
The shield sights are in their TIGHT. So tight, that you are going to need an MGW sight press tool if you want to move them. A normal brass bunch won't move them much and quite honestly (as I remove Shield sight weekly), you will need a steel punch and vice. This of course ruins the sights.
C4
Thanks. You're right, they are tight. They did ultimately move with a steel punch, what should be enough to correct the POI. I'll shoot it again soon to verify.
My ultimate plan is to replace the OEM fixed sights with a set of I-Dot Pros. However, I don't want to take on the expense and bother of that until the gun proves reliable. This project is running mostly on my own nickel.
Thanks for the updates. As a Shield owner (June 2013 test date) I am a little disappointed to hear about these problems. While I am only nearing my 1000 round mark with mine, I have yet to have any sort of stoppage. Mostly shoot Federal range and target and PMC Bronze. Since it's my EDC I should probably put more rounds through it.
Oh, and my MP45 mags have the line across the follower as well.
Thanks for the updates. As a Shield owner (June 2013 test date) I am a little disappointed to hear about these problems. While I am only nearing my 1000 round mark with mine, I have yet to have any sort of stoppage. Mostly shoot Federal range and target and PMC Bronze. Since it's my EDC I should probably put more rounds through it.
Oh, and my MP45 mags have the line across the follower as well.
Thanks for the info. 1000rds offers a good indicator of performance, and is certainly more than most shoot in a lengthier period of time. How expansive you want or need your reliability verification to be is up to you.
Curious what carry load you've chosen?
My wife's Shield never malfunctioned until she had about 450 rounds through it, and it only seems to do it with JHP, at least so far. I would definitely run a couple hundred rounds of my carry load through my Shield before I called it good to go.
Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk
I've only run about 500 rounds through mine, but it has eaten and spit 5 different loads. A variety of bullet weights. I am very happy with mine. I practice with 50 to 100 rounds every so often, as long as I shoot it well, I'm satisfied. I've always contended that I don't want my carry guns throttled to the brink of failure. But I'm glad some good test their limits.
I have Trijicon HD's. Big orange daytime sight is kick ass.
UPDATE (12/18/2013)
More results from a range session this evening.
Zero verifications, sight adjustments
Federal 147gr HST, 48rds @ 25yds, 10yds, B8 bullseyes and 2” circles
Federal 147gr JHP, 10rds @ 25yds
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, 10rds @ 25yds
I found that my sight adjustments from last night were a little too much, and had a bit of back-and-forth in bringing them back on target. A hammer and punch is certainly sub-optimal in doing so, but were the only tools available. In the end I was able to get it to an approximate zero with the HSTs with only a slight bias to the right remaining.
One 10rd group @ 25yds scored 85-1X on the B8, the best to date with either Shield. I would like to see a tighter group in the 90s, but I’ll take the progress. That previous best result with Shield(1) was 63-0X. This new score also creeps ahead of the XDs’s 84-0X.
State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security semi-auto pistol qualification COF
Federal 147gr JHP, 40rds, B21 target, 40/40
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, 40rds, B21 target, 37/40
I had a number of rearward ejections striking the brim of my hat and right arm.
FBI qualification COF
Herters-Blazer 115gr TNJ, 60rds, B21 target, 54/60
Several rearward ejections with this load, as well as a few that seemed to go straight up.
South Dakota state LE qualification (http://dci.sd.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=A7kPCUoNY8g%3d&tabid=563&mid=1097)
OH- BHA 124gr JHP-XTP +P, 50rds, B21 target, 50/50
SHO- Federal AE 115gr FMJ, 50rds, B21 target, 40/50
I’ve shot several state qual courses with Shields so far, including but not limited to SD, NE, WY, KS, others. I had this one handy, and it worked with the range limitations I was working with tonight. It’s also a pretty easy one to administer for SHO shooting, which I thought might help produce a problem.
These two loads weren't fired in the other Shield. The BHA had the heaviest recoil impulse and the greatest muzzle rise of any load fired in Shields to date, but caused no malfunctions.
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
60rds Herters-Blazer 115gr TNJ,
50rds Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (AE9DP)
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP +P
50rds Federal 147gr JHP (9MS)
50rds Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (53620)
48rds Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2)
There were no malfunctions this session. The sole remaining performance note is the erratic ejection, which doesn't seem to have readily identifiable common ammunition-related variable. Even though the erratic ejection is annoying, I’m not particularly concerned about it at this point if it’s not resulting in stoppages. If it's symptomatic of an underlying tolerance stack, it remains to be seen how likely or often a functional threshold will be reached.
Shooting results with this gun remain good. Even where scores don't differ much between Shield(1) and (2), spreads on the target are much improved.
I think I’ll run some Win Ranger 124/127 +P loads, as well as the 147 HST +P to see what they do.
Thanks for the continued input.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 308
Shield(2) cumulative total: 618
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0256Large.jpg
Good information all around. The industry standard for a single action pistol is to provide and require use of a manual safety. Are any of these tests done with the use of the manual safety?
Good information all around. The industry standard for a single action pistol is to provide and require use of a manual safety. Are any of these tests done with the use of the manual safety?
I used the manual safety in some drills with Shield(1), but not since. What I found was that the size and shape of the lever was useful enough for admin tasks. When trying to sweep it off during shooting drills from the holster, I missed it more than I hit it. Even when I rolled my thumb outward a bit for more positive contact, disengagement still wasn't consistent.
My biggest complaint with the safety is that it wears a spot on the inside of my thumb near the web. The 9mm less so than the .40, but both enough to be annoying. If the lever were any larger, and I elected to carry the gun with the safety on, I'd have to adopt an irregular grip or accept some blood loss until calluses could form.
UPDATE (12/20/2013)
I shot Shield(2) at a USPSA club shoot. Stage design for the event offered a good opportunity to run the gun through rapid movement, irregular positions, reloads, support side and SHO shooting. For the match, I shot Federal 147gr HSTs to further verify their reliability through that type of shooting. There were no malfunctions of any kind and nothing pertinent to note. When shooting at distance (15-25yds) I had C zone hits when shooting at speeds I normally shoot my G19 at. As took more deliberate effort. Up close, I got good As at my normal speeds. Overall, I was pleased.
This session brings the round count for the HSTs to 140 total without malfunction, and ~585 rounds total since the last malfunction with the 147 HydraShoks.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 42
Shield(2) cumulative total: 660
UPDATE (12/20/2013)
I shot Shield(2) at a USPSA club shoot. Stage design for the event offered a good opportunity to run the gun through rapid movement, irregular positions, reloads, support side and SHO shooting. For the match, I shot Federal 147gr HSTs to further verify their reliability through that type of shooting. There were no malfunctions of any kind and nothing pertinent to note. When shooting at distance (15-25yds) I had C zone hits when shooting at speeds I normally shoot my G19 at. As took more deliberate effort. Up close, I got good As at my normal speeds. Overall, I was pleased.
This session brings the round count for the HSTs to 140 total without malfunction, and ~585 rounds total since the last malfunction with the 147 HydraShoks.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 42
Shield(2) cumulative total: 660
You're still using the factory 3-dot sights right?
Which magazine do you prefer?
Thanks for the updates
You're still using the factory 3-dot sights right?
Which magazine do you prefer?
Thanks for the updates
Yes, sights are still the OEM fixed 3-dot configuration. After I finish a few more reliability tasks, I'll be upgrading to a set of I-dot Pros for this gun.
I prefer the 7rd mag for shooting/carry. It's a shorter overall height for the gun and flush fit. I like the 8rd magazines for reloads, but I remove the spacer sleeves. I found that when I left the sleeves on, they moved out of position, creating a distraction, moving my index points, needed to be pushed back into position during the reload, and they pinched my pinky as they were seated. When I removed the sleeve, I lost little to nothing in gripping surface, there was no pinching, and I didn't have to adjust my grip at all to insert the mag. The longer length of the 8rd mag in general gave me more control of it and exposed more from the mag pouch to grasp.
I am considering a Shield for the rotation, so wanted to drop a note of thanks for running and documenting your experiences with the gun(s).
I know this is a test centered around the Shield, but seeing as you have done a few comparisons and ran a few other guns, are you still happy with the choice of the Shield? Given the current market selection of single stack 9's, would you still choose this weapon as your "standard" for the testing, or knowing what you do now, would you have chosen one of the other options to run ~2000 rds through?
Other than the obvious things like a better trigger or consistent extraction, anything causing you grief or things you think they could have improved on, or things other guns do notably better? Along these lines with ergonomics - I may have missed it, but what size are your hands/glove size?
Addressing the safety rub issue mentioned earlier, have you investigated removing it from the gun, or are you simply ignoring it without any problems? You mention it rubbing a spot near the web - any issues with accidentally engaging the safety with manipulations?
I know this is a test centered around the Shield, but seeing as you have done a few comparisons and ran a few other guns, are you still happy with the choice of the Shield? Given the current market selection of single stack 9's, would you still choose this weapon as your "standard" for the testing, or knowing what you do now, would you have chosen one of the other options to run ~2000 rds through?
This was never really about a gun for me, but more for feedback and data for others. Some existing Glock users wanted a slimmer option. Some existing M&P users wanted a smaller gun (vs the 9c) and liked being able to stay within the brand and support chain. The Shield was a topic of a lot of conversation, was selling well, but didn't seem to be getting shot a lot. Or at least, in ways I wanted to see.
You may see another make/model run like this in a month or two. ;)
Other than the obvious things like a better trigger or consistent extraction, anything causing you grief or things you think they could have improved on, or things other guns do notably better? Along these lines with ergonomics - I may have missed it, but what size are your hands/glove size?
Addressing the safety rub issue mentioned earlier, have you investigated removing it from the gun, or are you simply ignoring it without any problems? You mention it rubbing a spot near the web - any issues with accidentally engaging the safety with manipulations?
Off the top of my head...
Shield triggers are inconsistent with wide variation in attributes. The solution is likely not possible at the current price point for various reasons.
The grip surface is too smooth and needs a rougher texture.
If buying another one, I'd select one without a safety if/when available. Removing the one in mine is on the list after more reliability tasks.
My GI flight glove size is 12, and in most others I need a XXL or XXXL if available. My hands and fingers are long, but not thick. Ergos on the gun are good. IBOs, kids, ladies, and average guys do well. I have to work a bit more than others at grip and trigger finger placement.
Otherwise, I'd point to the summary section of each update for additional comments and comparisons. The Shield fared well in some respects against others, but the above stick out in my mind the most.
Info request...
Think of the Glock Sport/Combat Holster, here: https://store.teamglock.com/accessories.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product+Promotions+Branded+%28Desktop%29&utm_term=glock%20combat%20holster&utm_content=sM3gv6wI4|pcrid|30816953059|pkw|glock%20combat%20holster|pmt|b|pdv|c|
What OWB belt-mounted holster is currently available for the Shield that has the lightest, thinnest, smallest overall footprint and profile for the Shield. Same, for single and double mag pouches? Something truly minimalist. Kydex only.
Fist does alot of thin kydex stuff.
http://www.krounds.com/owb-holsters-the-owb-pancake-kydex-holster-p-74.html
That one looks like it might fit the bill.
Great thread. Thanks for all the hard work!
UPDATE
I took the Shield to a new-shooter event today where it was placed in a pool of guns for attendees to choose from. It was selected by three shooters, one of which had some prior Shield experience. As the event is only a handgun exposure session no specific exercises are conducted. Shooting consists of casual, slow fire at close, generous targets.
Two types of ammunition were used in this gun through the day, both from Black Hills. The first was remanufactured 115gr FMJ, 30 rounds total. The second was the new manufacture 115gr JHP-EXP, 50 rounds total. The EXP is marketed as “extra power”, loaded hotter than a standard 115gr but not to +P criteria.
Watching the Shield at various points, ejection was brisk to 3-4:00 and several feet in distance. A few rounds would occasionally eject at the 6:00, all of which were EXPs. At or about round #76 the gun stopped, leaving an empty horizontal case in the port with a round right behind it. A photo after I locked the slide back:
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/ShieldStovepipe9-14.jpg
Some have offered that the Shield has inherently low and insufficient extractor tension, making it prone to extractor bounce. Higher pressure rounds would logically increase the likelihood of a problem. Coincidentally, just yesterday I obtained 1000rds of another EXP-type round to run in this Shield for that reason. That a problem surfaced in so few rounds this session, and with a high quality known-good load, is disappointing.
I’ll report back after contact with S&W on Monday.
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 80
Shield cumulative total: 1019
Thanks Skintop for continuing to update this thread!
I took my Sheild out to the range this week. Between my wife and I we shot 120ds of CCI blazer brass and PMC bronze. The gun was cleaned and lubed with Fireclean before we went. For the first 70rds I shot it did not malfunction, but when I traded with my wife she had a troubling misfire experience leading to a bizarre FTE.
She reported that after inserting a loaded a mag, chambering a round, and pressing the trigger, it did not fire. She then removed the magazine and pressed checked. It did chamber a round and after returning to battery she fired the round (w/o a mag) which resulted in this FTE:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/2FAA87C2-6036-448B-8AB9-6E1301E07540-220-0000000CD24DBFA5_zps9af30359.jpg
She said the trigger was dead when she pulled it, that it did pull all the way (manuel safety disengaged) but did not click (not a hard primer). Now if a FTE in only 70rds wasn't troubling, a deadtrigger surely is, especially when it is second hand information. Just to make sure she knew what she was reporting I unloaded the gun and ran through all the different trigger scenarios with her. 1) try to pull trigger with safety engaged, 2) dry fire with trigger set, 3) pull trigger after dry fire without resetting it. She confirmed that the third option is what she felt, that it did pull, but did not click.
After this happened the gun fired properly for another 50rds or so.
I don't know what to think at this point. This gun has been 100% when I have been the one shooting it (about 340rds total) and never once over 1000 dry fires has the trigger been dead. I am starting to wonder if it has something against women (see my previous post #30) :confused:
I suppose I will keep putting it through it's paces and fire several hundred more rounds through it myself. We'll see what happens.
Also, the dang white sticker from the stock front sight fell out during this range trip, I remedied this with a red sharpie paint pen.
I put 200rds of PMC Bronze through the Shield today. My hopes were high but I am now considering sending it in to S&W.
The gun was cleaned and lubed with Fireclean before the range trip.
Like Skintop previously noted malfunctions typically start happening in high round count sessions, it was smooth sailing until round 100:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/33EA30BD-AE6E-4D45-AD73-F13848AB1138-1380-00000166903A39FD_zps9e062c84.jpg
round 159:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/1C9E1752-45E4-4084-B155-77B04D40A813-1380-00000166B608B225_zps295a11a7.jpg
and round 189:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/2BF75D4A-F3AC-446B-8E27-F994AD162BE1-1380-00000166E29C9F09_zps046a3b47.jpg
I know using PMC bronze doesn't exactly eliminate problematic ammo as a variable but three identical FTE in 200rds seems excessive. It looks like the extractor is simply skipping over the case rim? These photos were taken as the gun was after firing, I did not lock the slide back for the photo. Anyone have any ideas?
Concerning the front sight, my paint pen fix doesn't reflect much light compared to the stock white dots. It doesn't look that way in the picture because of the flash but the range was quite dark and it was slow to have the rear notch more visible than the front post. The paint works in daylight but is only a temporary solution until I can get night sights. Perhaps white paint pen would have been a better choice in the meantime.
Also, no dead trigger this trip, or during several hundred dry fires last night. I am going to chalk what my wife described up to something lost in communication. Maybe it wasnt the first round of the mag and she didn't let the trigger quite reset before trying to to squeez it again... idk.
At this point I am wondering if I should test another few hundred rounds of different ammo (I only have Remington UMC now, not much better than PMC if I am not mistaken) or just get the ball rolling in sending the sucker in :(
UPDATE (09/30-2)
I made it to the range tonight for another session with the Shield. Prior to heading out it was inspected, cleaned, and lubed. I also reviewed previous range sessions and packed loads that had been involved in stoppages documented here. Those loads are identified below.
I shot some different exercises tonight that moved a little faster and ran the round count up a little quicker, as follows.
EXERCISE 1 - Draw from concealment, fire two rounds to an 8” circle, one to a 3x5” index card, then two more to the 8” circle, at 10yds. 10 runs for 50rds.
Run 1, Federal 147gr HydraShok (#P9HS2G) 50rds. FTE on round #8, one distinct 6:00 ejection hit my head.
Run 2, Federal 124gr HydraShok (#P9HS1G), 50rds. No problems.
Run 3, Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO (Q4318), 50rds. I ran this one at 7yds to play with speed and accuracy balance. Soft ejections to the left, right, 6:00, and straight up. One hit the slide on the way back down.
Run 4, Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2), 50rds. A few 6:00 ejections, 1 to my head.
EXERCISE 2 - FAM TPC
Run 1, Black Hills 115gr GDHP +P, 30rds. No problems. 145/150, NG on stages 1, 4, 6.
Run 2, Black Hills 115gr JHP-EXP, 30rds. No problems. 150/150, NG on stages 1, 4.
EXERCISE 3 - Nebraska LETC Instructor Qualification Course
Black Hills 115gr JHP-XTP +P, 30rds. FTE on round #28. 27/30 = Pass
SUMMARY
When I experienced the early stovepipe at round #8, my first thought was to stop shooting and box up the gun again. I wanted to give the Shield every possible benefit of the doubt though, hoping that the new barrel and new extractor needed a few rounds to settle in. The distinct 6:00 ejection thereafter didn’t increase confidence, but was thought to be part of the same process.
As I moved into the 124 HydraShoks, the gun went through its cycle of operation without issue. The 124s had previously stovepiped, so the lack thereof this session may have been a good sign.
After the success with the 124gr HydraShok, I chose the 124gr Winchester. Winchester cases had been identified as a common variable in similar problems reported by other Shield owners. While the gun didn’t stop with this ammo, it had the most erratic and multi-directional ejection of all the loads.
More duty ammo followed, this time the Federal 147gr HST. Ejection was less erratic than with the Winchester, but noticeable.
With that quantity of standard pressure ammunition fired, I brought out the BHA 115gr EXP and +P to see if slide velocity would overrun extractor tension. 30rds of the EXP and +P ran through the TPCs without issue, and 27 more rounds into the NLETC course. The last stoppage for the day came on round #28. At that point, I fired the remaining two rounds to finish the course, scored the target, and called it a day. I had the information I needed.
In addition to these issues, I made another observation tonight. While packing up, I noticed that migrating lube from the muzzle and recoil spring assembly had a dark brown hue to it. Not consistent with fouling, and not apparently another oil. It was something else, perhaps lingering machine oil or preservative? As noted above, the gun had been cleaned and lubed prior to shooting tonight. I tried to capture a picture of it, but it’s barely discernable in the photos. This is not a fault of the gun, more an oddity.
Photos of the stoppages, in order of occurrence.
Where to go from here?
Total rounds on the Shield this session: 290
Shield cumulative total: 1309
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0103Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0104Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0112Large.jpg
UPDATE (12/17/2013)
Results from tonight’s range session using ammunition previously involved in erratic performance or stoppages.
Zero verifications, B8 bullseye
Federal 147gr HST, 10rds, ~5” left @ 25yds, elevation okay
Federal 147gr HST, 10rds, ~3” left @ 10yds, elevation okay
Federal 147gr HydraShoks, 10rds, ~6” left @ 25yds, elevation okay
The HST had produced the best group, putting 7/10 rounds into ~4”. Three remaining fliers landing high opened it up quite a bit. An attempt to adjust the sight on the range was unsuccessful, as progressively bigger hammers failed to move it in the dovetail. Further shooting used a little Kentucky windage at distance for best possible hits.
The HSTs ejected to 4:00 or so. A couple of the HydraShoks ejected rearward.
State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security semi-auto pistol qualification COF
Shot using the remainder of the Federal 147gr HydraShoks, 40rds, A-zone target, 36/40.
During this COF there were multiple, consistent rearward ejection landing on my hat, shoulder, and striking my ear pro. At round #35 on the COF, there was this stoppage:
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0251Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0254Large.jpg
Hackathorn practice drill
Shot using the remainder of the Federal 147gr HSTs, 30rds, A-zone target, 24/30.
No problems.
LAPD D Platoon Qualification A
Run 1- BHA 115gr JHP-EXP, 50rds, Q target, no problems, 48/50
Run 2- BHA 115gr JHP-XTP +P, 50rds, Q target, no problems, 49/50
On this drill I had a failure to feed. This was due to my middle finger hitting the mag release and dropping it just far enough from the pickup rail to prevent feeding.
D5, various distances
Shot using Federal 124gr HydraShoks, 50rds, A-zone targets
3yd- 2.48 C, 2.80 C
5yd- 2.65 C, 2.75 C
7yd- 2.96 -1, 2.98 C
10yd- 3.83 -1, 3.95 -1, plus two more runs that didn’t time reliably due to range interference
There were a few rearward ejections with this load.
The 3, 5, and 7yd results of this drill are the lowest clean times to date with any Shield.
FBI qualification COF
Shot using Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, 50rds, and 10 remaining rounds of the BHA 115gr JHP-EXP, Q target, 59/60. No problems.
These rounds landed in a very nice cluster, most all of which would be contained within a IDPA -0 8” circle.
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
60rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P
50rds Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G
50rds Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2
I had several additional boxes of ammunition that included other previously problematic loads, but will save those for a different session and maybe different shooters.
Throughout all exercises, my hold-offs for distance held true further verifying that the gun needs a sight tweak.
By the end of the session, the trigger developed a nice roll-off at the break and was quite pleasant to shoot. The lack of a reset is annoying but not disabling. In dry fire, it can be heard but it is not palpable at all. Fortunately, even limited forward movement of the trigger is enough to reset it.
The FTE with the 147 HydraShok, so early in the session, was disappointing and left me a bit apprehensive about continuing. Nonetheless, the gun received fair consideration and an opportunity to perform through subsequent drills. I will shoot more of the 147 HydraShoks in the future though to see if issues continue.
Except for the first slow fire exercise for POI, all drills were fired from concealment, 3:00 OWB, under a tee shirt.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 310
Shield(2) cumulative total: 310
Very informative thread and a must read for any potential Shield owner.
You hung in there longer than I would have on the first Shield. You invested a lot of effort, money, and time in order to wring it out. I'd have gone back to the 26 much sooner. Maybe a lemon, but it appears your results weren't completely isolated.
UPDATE (12/27/2013)
Several users have identified Winchester cases as a common variable in Shield malfunctions. Malfunctions reported by two particularly credible owners were with Winchester-loaded and Winchester-cased cartridges exclusively. Therefore, today was Winchester Preview Day.
A trip to Walmart secured a few 100rd bulk packs of the 115 FMJ, along with a 20rd box of the 147gr PDX1 bonded JHP. This purchase is representative of how many owners and CCWers will buy ammunition. The first load, a quantity of something cheap to shoot a little. The second, the smallest container of more expensive carry ammunition available to load the gun and spare magazine with.
With me today was one of my wee-ones, offering plenty of enthusiasm, a smaller and less experienced hand, and a fresh perspective.
His shooting - WWB
77 rounds of bullseye and slow fire drills, plus a short OD/BUG proficiency course.
There was one FTE early in the session at about round #20. (See below)
My shooting
WWB
166 rounds were fired through three runs each on the Strike Level 1 Qual and the Farnam standards. There were two more runs through a 50rd qualification course, one of which was fired SHO. An additional quantity was fired SHO and WHO with the V-block grip (ala Dave Harrington). There were no malfunctions. However, throughout the session I was getting struck in the face, head, or left side of my neck at least every 2/5 rounds.
PDX1
10rds @ 25yds, B8 bullseye, slow-fire, 70-0X, POA/POI.
5rds @ 10yds, B8 bullseye, slow-fire, 50-3X.
D5 @ 7yds, A-zone, <3.0 sec on the turner, clean.
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
243rds Winchester 115gr FMJ, #USA9mmVP
20rds Winchester Supreme 147gr JHP PDX1, #S9mmPDB1
The WWB produced the most consistently erratic ejection to date. There was only one stoppage, but I’ll attribute it mostly to an equally erratic grip in my wee one early in his shooting. If there was something inherently failure-prone in the WWB, I would have expected to see another stoppage somewhere in the remaining 223 rounds fired.
20rds of the PDX1 isn’t enough to determine much of anything about it. It shot to point of aim at distance. The Shield sent five rapidly fired rounds of it downrange accurately without issue. The consumer that bought this box for this Shield on this day would have gotten by. That’s a less than ideal practice, but certainly a common one.
I have much more WWB to work into the rotation and will revisit it in the future.
I managed to hit the magazine release while shooting again, dumping the 8rd magazine in the gun.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 263
Shield(2) cumulative total: 923
I have about 600 rounds through mine. 200 in the first session. No failures at all to date. My parents got one also, and the Fsp dot fell out (easy fix) but only 100 rounds so far.
Skintop, what is the average round count of failure since last cleaning? I have not shot over 200rds without cleaning and ejection is always consistent.
If its higher, do you notice excessive gunge in or around extractor and claw hook areas? Maybe I missed it, do you clean between each range session?
I would be interested in hearing more about how the WWB performs in your Shield and other pistols you own.
I would be interested in hearing more about how the WWB performs in your Shield and other pistols you own.
I have several hundred through a gen4 G19 and G26 in the last few months or so, no issues. I'll run more in Shield(2) and a couple more for comparison.
Here's a Shield horror story (http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-side-arms-k-bars/227640-shield-almost-took-my-fingers-today.html) for you...yowzers!
Here's a Shield horror story (http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-side-arms-k-bars/227640-shield-almost-took-my-fingers-today.html) for you...yowzers!
How is it a shield horror story if its an ammo related failure? I guess we'll see, but so far it's looking like ammo.
Here's a Shield horror story (http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-side-arms-k-bars/227640-shield-almost-took-my-fingers-today.html) for you...yowzers!
How is it a shield horror story if its an ammo related failure? I guess we'll see, but so far it's looking like ammo.
While critical of some aspects of the Shield, I will be as fair as possible and give credit where it is due. There are also many things I like about it. In the case of the supplied link, there is insufficient information (at best) to blame the gun.
UPDATE (12/31/2013)
Today’s range session continued my trial of various mediocre practice loads that have been involved in the problem reports of other Shield users. Assisting me on the range tonight was Mrs ST, an able shooter, range companion, and candid contemplator.
Wyoming LE academy pistol proficiency course
PMC 115gr FMJ, 25rds, B21 target, pass
Nebraska LETC instructor Q course
PMC 115gr FMJ, 30rds, B21 target, pass
Various drills, D1, D5, reloads, sight error assessment*
PMC 115gr FMJ, 45rds
Herters-S&B 115gr FMJ, 100rds
WWB 115gr FMJ, 25rds
FAM TPC
WWB 115gr FMJ, 30rds, Q targets. GO on times, NO GO for points (133)
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
100rds PMC 115gr FMJ (9A)
100rds Herters-Sellier & Bellot (HRT9A)
55rds Winchester 115gr FMJ (USA9mmVP)
There were no malfunctions of any kind, and nothing noteworthy about the ejection pattern of any particular load. Again, I don’t discuss ejection solely for itself, as it’s not concerning to me unless a party to a stoppage. Still, it’s of interest to many others. The PMC was a very light load with the mildest recoil yet.
Mrs ST’s regular, longstanding pistol and primary point of comparison is a gen2 G19. Her feedback on the Shield: The Shield was agreeable to shoot. It did want to move in the hand more than larger guns and especially the G19, but not as much as might be expected in these smaller, subcompact guns. She did not care for the shape of the narrower grip or smooth grip surface. The trigger felt longer in travel, and “clunky at the end.” Overall, she would use it if needing something smaller and thinner, but continued to prefer her G19. Her performance on target compared very favorably to the G19 in several respects.
As part of the various drills above, I shot the Shield to assess POI deviations with different sight alignment errors that might be produced in rapid presentations. This involved placing the body of the front sight post above, below, left, and right of the rear notch at distances of 5yds and 7yds. Firing 5rd groups at 5yds, rounds landed at the top and bottom edges of a sheet of standard 8x11 sheet of paper. Groups moved off the edges of the paper to the left and right. Firing 5rds groups at 7yds, rounds ran ~5” high, ~7” low, and ~7” left and right. Proper sight alignment remains ideal, but it’s handy to know the effect of error when faced with sub-optimal shooting conditions.
Completion of the TPC finished the session for the day. I was able to run the gun within times, but missed and lost points in fumbled grips out of the holster. Knowing where the wheels fall off helps determine where to reinforce the machine.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 255
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1178
Thanks for the updates
Sounds like a great way to ring in the new year!
UPDATE (01/04/2014)
Three more economy practice loads were shot through Shield(2) today, along with some premium ammo.
Farnam standards (12 sec instructor standard)
BHA 124gr JHP +P, 7rds, 8yds, sheet of paper, pass
Various drills, D#, failure drills, concealed and from the ready, various distances
Federal Champion 115gr FMJ, 100rds
PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ, 100rds
SHO qual run, F.A.S.T. runs
Federal RTP 115gr FMJ 100rds
Quals: Pass
FAST: 6.82 -1H, 7.40 C 6.16 -1B, 6.38 -1H
FAM TPC
BHA 115gr JHP EXP, 30rds, Q targets. NG on stage 4 (fumbled second reload), 135/150
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
7rds Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP (new)
100rds Federal Champion 115gr FMJ (WM51991)
100rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ
100rds Federal 115gr FMJ RTP (Range Training Practice) (RTP9115)
30rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP (new)
I started out tonight shooting the Farnam standards cold with full power carry ammo. The Shield had an accumulation of lint, road grime, and snow from BUG ankle carry the last few days. I like this particular COF as it combines several skills in a ammo-efficient drill with a challenging but achievable standard.
These were the first FAST runs with Shield(2), and weren’t much different than Shield(1). I had expected more gains here similar to those seen in other drills.
A fumbled reload on stage 4 of the TPC killed the qual. The first part of the stage came in at 3.18 and was GTG, and then 4.65 did me in. That mag well sure is small sometimes.
There were no malfunctions in which the gun was at fault. In some of the drills with the Champion and PPU I hit the magazine release 2-3 times, popping the magazine loose for a failure to feed. I also noticed far more failures of the slide to lock back this session, so something in my grip needs dry work this week. Ejection pattern for some of the Champion rounds was erratic, with several striking me in the head or landing on my neck. One case ejected vertically and struck the slide on the way down.
I like that this Shield continues to be reliable with even economy training fodder. Working guns should be flexible, and able to pass the Walmart test.
This session marks a milestone in this project. Shield(2) has fired 1515rds since 12/17/2013, surpassing Shield(1)‘s round count of 1309rds. In accumulating that total, it has done so with a greater variety of ammunition in more intensive range sessions, with two stovepipes and some erratic ejection. As I’ve noted before though, erratic ejection isn’t particularly troubling to me unless it corresponds with a stoppage.
Unfortunately, they continue for some. Just yesterday, a friend brought his new Shield to the range with a box of WWB and had a stovepipe at about the ~25rd mark of a COF. He fired about 50 total for the day. I caught it before he cleared it on the run, and it was the same as seen in the pics above. He’ll shoot that gun much more, and I’ll have opportunity to see what it does in the future.
With a reasonable track record of reliability of my gun now established, it’s time for a sight upgrade.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 337
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1515
UPDATE (01/04/2014)With a reasonable track record of reliability of my gun now established, it’s time for a sight upgrade.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 337
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1515
RE sight upgrade, what are you going to install and are you doing it yourself?
Thanks
ericridebike
01-11-14, 08:26
I finally picked up a new Shield 9 yesterday. The fired case is dated 12/13. I ended up getting it from a shop I had somehow never made it to before & that ended up being just past another shop with an indoor range. Being so close, I decided to stop by and shoot it. I had brought my range bag just in case, cause I though they might be close. I ended up field stripping the shield in the parking lot and cleaning it the best I could with a rag, ran a bore snake through it and then lubed it with some Frog Lube(realizing not doing it properly with heat and all). I usually like to break them down and do a more thorough and correct strip and lube, but since this would be my best opportunity to shoot it for a while, I decided to do it.
Dryfiring it revealed a nice trigger in my opinion. I have a M&P9 FS, M&P9 5" Pro, and M&P9c that are all at least a couple years old and the Shield trigger feels the best stock and definitely has a tactile/audible reset vs the others in stock form. Really wasn't prepared ammo wise, as I had one box of Tula 115g cheap stuff & then I bought a box of new stuff from the range to try with reservations as that was all they had at the time. It was "Blam-Tec Blue line- a fully encapsulated 125 grain CPJLRN Polymer Coated projectile, loaded with 4.0 grains of Winchester 231 powder, Avg FPS 1034, Power Factor 129.25".
I was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy at 7 & 15 yds. Didn't measure groups but able to keep all rounds, aside from a few flyers, in the "A" zone & head area of the target. Out of the 100 rounds I shot, I did get 3 FTE's that included both types of ammo. Disappointing to say the least. I'm hoping that lack of a proper initial field strip and lube may have contributed to the issues, as well as the cheap ammo. Other than the FTE's, no issues and I really like the gun. Got it home and gave it a proper field strip and lube, along with some polishing on the feed ramp with metal polish and a q-tip. Hopefully next range trip will be problem free.
Out of the 100 rounds I shot, I did get 3 FTE's that included both types of ammo. Disappointing to say the least. I'm hoping that lack of a proper initial field strip and lube may have contributed to the issues, as well as the cheap ammo. Other than the FTE's, no issues and I really like the gun. Got it home and gave it a proper field strip and lube, along with some polishing on the feed ramp with metal polish and a q-tip. Hopefully next range trip will be problem free.
Give it a proper clean and lube, then shoot it again with other ammo. It would be nice if it worked with the Tula, as many others do (including mine). Unless you have experience with the "Blam Tec" and it's a known commodity, I would also discount it as well for now.
Thanks for sharing your results. Please do update as you shoot a bit more.
UPDATE (01/15/2014)
Tonight was Corbon night for Shield(2).
D3, D5 - various distances
Corbon 115gr FMJ, 100rds, IDPA target. No problems.
LAPD D Platoon Qualification A
Corbon 95gr FMJ, 50rds, IDPA target, -9. No problems.
FBI qualification COF
Corbon 100gr Pow’RBall, 60rds, IDPA target, -7. 1 stoppage, see below.
Hackathorn practice drill
Corbon 115gr JHP, 30rds, IDPA target, -12. No problems.
Summary
Ammunition run-down:
100rds Corbon Performance Match 115gr FMJ
52rds Corbon 95gr Performance Match FMJ
60rds Corbon Pow’RBall 100gr +P (PB09100/20)
37rds Corbon 115gr JHP
I picked these Corbon loads in particular for several reasons. This particular 115gr FMJ has been quite accurate in several other semi-autos. All of these loads have a visibly shorter OAL than most others in their weight class, and can be quirky feeders in some guns. Even when functioning reliably in known-good guns, moments of hesitation can be felt in extended sessions. The Pow’RBall came up in discussion with a colleague whose agency suggests in use in their OD/BUGs. And for travel to the NYC metro area, the Shield, 7-round magazines, and Pow’RBall offers a CCW combination that doesn’t require periodic reconfiguration.
With the exception of the Pow’RBall load, all loads are standard pressure and loaded in Starline brass. The 115gr loads are advertised at ~1200fps from the 4.0” test barrel. The Pow‘RBall is loaded with a Corbon headstamp, and brass origin is unknown. All loads were tame in recoil. Even the +P Pow’RBall handled easily in the Shield and shot to point of aim during these practical exercises.
There was one stoppage with the Pow'RBall early in the FBI qual. After shooting three rounds WHO, the next live round became stuck in the ejection port upside down with the primer skyward. The chamber was empty, and one round remained in the magazine. I didn't have opportunity to photograph it in place. The empty case preceding it had ejected cleanly.
The white paint in the recesses of the three-dot sights has progressively eroded to the point that it’s barely visible or appears oblong. While it can mostly be ignored, it’s sometimes visually distracting. I've now blacked out the rear, and hit the front with some high-visibility model paint.
I shot on IDPA targets tonight. Scores above are for points-down in IDPA scoring, and all misses -1s. All misses today seemed attributable to grip acquisition issues at speed. I felt a pretty consistent stutter at the holster I don’t have an explanation for but needs correction with dry fire.
My next Corbon outing will add DPX to the mix, along with the high velocity, high pressure loads that are their stock in trade.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 249
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1764
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0263.jpg
SeriousStudent
01-16-14, 00:15
The Corbon should be interesting. My Glocks seem to like the +P and NATO pressure stuff, I'll be very interested in how the Shield does.
I fired my 9mm Shield today and got two failure to extracts that looked like the photos of Skintop1911's malfunctions. In one of the malfunctions the case was turned around so that the back of the empty case was facing forward in the ejection port. This occurred with Federal HST 147 grain, which had previously functioned reliably. I also had a failure to extract with Remington 115 grain FMJ.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0251Large.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0254Large.jpg
more to come . . .
A bit of review on the history of the gun. I had about 1400ish rounds through the gun when I started experiencing failures to extract with Winchester cased ammo. This included Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP and Black Hills 124 grain Tac-XP +P.
I sent the gun back to Smith & Wesson and they returned the gun with a note indicating that they had replaced the extractor and recoil spring, and that they testfired it and it met factory specs.
After receiving it back I took it shooting and ran about 350-400 rounds through it. I only had 2 failures to extract, both of them with Winchester. In that session it managed to fire 120 rounds of Federal HST without a problem. I'd fired some of these rounds in the past without any issues through the gun.
In tonight's session I did not make it through 50 rounds of the Federal 147 grain HST without experiencing a failure to extract. I then switched over to Remington 115 grain FMJ and did not make 50 rounds before experiencing a similar malfunction with that ammo.
Edited to add: Needless to say, it will be going back to S&W . . .
brushy bill
01-17-14, 22:48
Glad not to be an early adopter. Folks seem to be willing to flock to the new Glock 41/42 and forget the teething pains of the Shield, Gen 4s, MP9s, etc.
I would expect quicker wear with a smaller gun, so springs make sense. However, that seems to not be the problem. How are your extractors and chambers looking? I'll be in a similar round count this summer so I'm curious to see what happens. I haven't had a single issue yet, but im around 800.
They put a new extractor in my gun before returning it. I wonder if they bothered to replace the extractor spring as well, since the returned work order did not indicate it, though they may have done it automatically.
I could deal with the gun if it only had issues with Winchester ammo, but now it is exhibiting the same failure to feed issues with federal and Remington.
Maybe we need to retitle this thread 'what's shipping BACK.'
I would expect quicker wear with a smaller gun, so springs make sense. [ However, that seems to not be the problem. How are your extractors and chambers looking? I'll be in a similar round count this summer so I'm curious to see what happens. I haven't had a single issue yet, but im around 800.
Since the start of all this, I ask for a detailed look and history of every Shield I encounter when out and about. None seem to show any visible anomalous wear at the extractor, nor chipping or deformation. The amount of extractor tension feels about the same. Barrels, chambers, breech faces, apparent RSA resistance all seem about the same. One thing that stands out are the widely variable trigger attributes, but everything else stays within a pretty narrow range.
This is qualitative and subjective. Still, a starting point. There are indicators and tells I'm hoping will materialize at some point with enough guns.
Ammo trending has been elusive as well.
The frustrating part is that when the guns run well and the shooter is GTG, they have a lot of capability in a very small package.
brushy bill
01-18-14, 10:05
Skintop, Thanks for taking the time to make all this information available to the rest of us. I really like the Shield concept and look forward to the time when S&W works out the bugs. Continuing to monitor this thread with interest.
Skintop, Thanks for taking the time to make all this information available to the rest of us. I really like the Shield concept and look forward to the time when S&W works out the bugs. Continuing to monitor this thread with interest.
I sell a lot of Shields. I read the S&W forums a lot looking for problems. I talk directly to S&W LE about any major problems they are seeing.
Trust me when I say that their are a metric truck load of shields out there with the majority of them run.
With small sub-compact guns, you are more likely to get a malfunction than you will with a larger framed gun (just the way it is IMHO). Like everything else in life, there are trade offs. Want a small gun that you can easily carry (concealed) in minimal clothing? It isn't going to be as reliable as a Full Size gun. It is this way with lots of guns in other platforms (like short barreled AR's for instance).
C4
PatrioticDisorder
01-18-14, 12:12
I sell a lot of Shields. I read the S&W forums a lot looking for problems. I talk directly to S&W LE about any major problems they are seeing.
Trust me when I say that their are a metric truck load of shields out there with the majority of them run.
With small sub-compact guns, you are more likely to get a malfunction than you will with a larger framed gun (just the way it is IMHO). Like everything else in life, there are trade offs. Want a small gun that you can easily carry (concealed) in minimal clothing? It isn't going to be as reliable as a Full Size gun. It is this way with lots of guns in other platforms (like short barreled AR's for instance).
C4
I haven't had any failures with my .40 Shield, albeit I don't quite have 2k rounds through it yet as I don't shoot it often, but it not only runs well, I dare say it's my most accurate M&P.
GUNSLINGER733
01-18-14, 13:02
These are awesome pistols. I polished all the internals and the trigger is awesome in mine. I've shot at 5-100 yards and it really surprises people. My plates are 7.5x11 and hit it at 100. Pretty impressive for a pocket pistol
How many rounds after detail cleaning are problems showing? For Instance, Ed, when you had a fte at 50rds, did you clean between sessions? This may have been addressed by skintop, but don't remember.
Yes, I cleaned the gun between sessions.
I had no problems with the gun for the first 1200-1500 rounds.
How many rounds after detail cleaning are problems showing? For Instance, Ed, when you had a fte at 50rds, did you clean between sessions? This may have been addressed by skintop, but don't remember.
I do a basic field strip and cleaning after each session to eliminate accumulated fouling as a variable.
Here are some pictures of my Shield's failure to extracts. They were in another thread which I cannot find on the search feature. I am reposting them here so I will have a convenient place to send the Smith & Wesson reps to when I send the gun back to them:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shieldmalf2_zps913a5db2.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/Octshieldmalf_zps81ed1e61.jpg
So I had to chime into this thread. Purchase my Shield 9 in September of 2012 when it first came out. I was told to wait till the "kinks" have been worked out before purchasing one. I have many handguns, I buy them, love them, then get tired and sell them. Many pistols come and go through my hands. But 2 pistols in my arsenal never gets sold. My Glock 19 and my Shield 9. Long story short, My Shield 9 has OVER 5000 rounds since I purchased it (09-05-12 shell casing).
In those 5000+ rounds I have shot everything from Tula 115 Steel case to Hornady Critical Duty, and it has never failed. It is so reliable, my fiancé, brother, and 2 best friends also purchased a shield for themselves. Not one of them as had any issues with their Shields (3 Shield 9mm and 2 Shield 40 S&W). Im not one of these guys who buys guns and look at them. Ive given up on buying by the box, I just purchase my ammo by the case from Freedom Munitions here in houston. Out of the 5 Shields that I've personally shot (mine included), never has the Shield not lived up to my high expectations. To any guys who are scared that the shield cannot be DEAD reliable, I dare say it is GLOCK RELIABLE!
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o84/gaysterxviet/IMG_0083_zps042384a4.jpg
-My first outing with my shield. Torture test from 2012.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o84/gaysterxviet/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps93ca8120.jpg
7 yard target, Shield is VERY accurate. I've given up on shooting to see where I've shot. I only look for flyers.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o84/gaysterxviet/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0b159bc1.jpg
EDC.
So I had to chime into this thread. Purchase my Shield 9 in September of 2012 when it first came out. I was told to wait till the "kinks" have been worked out before purchasing one. I have many handguns, I buy them, love them, then get tired and sell them. Many pistols come and go through my hands. But 2 pistols in my arsenal never gets sold. My Glock 19 and my Shield 9. Long story short, My Shield 9 has OVER 5000 rounds since I purchased it (09-05-12 shell casing).
In those 5000+ rounds I have shot everything from Tula 115 Steel case to Hornady Critical Duty, and it has never failed. It is so reliable, my fiancé, brother, and 2 best friends also purchased a shield for themselves. Not one of them as had any issues with their Shields (3 Shield 9mm and 2 Shield 40 S&W). Im not one of these guys who buys guns and look at them. Ive given up on buying by the box, I just purchase my ammo by the case from Freedom Munitions here in houston. Out of the 5 Shields that I've personally shot (mine included), never has the Shield not lived up to my high expectations. To any guys who are scared that the shield cannot be DEAD reliable, I dare say it is GLOCK RELIABLE!
Your experience is the NORM IMHO and see this kind of thing routinely.
C4
UPDATE (02/23/2014)
I haven't had Shield(2) out since Jan 15, and the other thread currently running here reminded me that I had some more loads to run. Unless some particular data set is developed or requested, I'll transition to sharing just simple ammunition totals and any problems as reported.
Ammunition run-down for today:
50rds Magtech 115gr FMC (9A)
50rds HSM 100gr Reduced Ricochet (Frang)
50rds AE IRT 147gr TMJ (AE9N2)
The sole malfunction today was with the AE, which failed to feed one round. That round ended up with it's headstamp pointed out of the ejection port, stopping the gun. The expended case preceding it cleared fine and there were no other issues with that load.
Several thousand rounds of the HSM frangible have been quirky in M9s and commercial 92FSs, but fine in various 9mm Glocks. There were no stoppages in the Shield, but virtually every single round of the 50 fired ejected at the 6:00 striking my hat or right shoulder.
My last handling of the Shield was 30+ days ago. The lack of practice showed in the first exercises fired which were slower and more erratic than when shooting the Shield more consistently. That's not unexpected, but I hadn't expected the difference to be as obvious as it was.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 150
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1914
Several months ago I was qualifying with my off duty Glock 26 at my department's range. A fellow officer was on the line with his newly purchased M&P Shield. During the course of fire he experienced malfunctions similar to the ones described by members of this post. After the course he had considered selling the pistol. I asked him if I could run the pistol through the 50 round course (we have the option of shooting the course twice). With the same Federal 147grain HST I had no malfunctions; I scored 95% on the course (100% for my Glock 26). That was first time shooting the M&P Shield. On his second try, he experienced the same malfunctions. I asked him to let me borrow the pistol to shoot the same course later in the week. I wind up buying the pistol from him. The gun, in my hands, has run flawlessly, even though I don't shoot it as well as my Glock, my scores with it are in the high 90's. I don't know why the pistol didn't work for him, but I'm sure that it wasn't the pistol. I've been shooting the gun at least once a week (100 rounds) for the past six months, and have not had one malfunction. Not one! I can't explain it but I think that size and ergonomics are not 'one size fits all'. Maybe that has something to do with it? Anyway, I sincerely hope that those that are having problems find them rectified soon.
Linkscoach
03-20-14, 11:25
I've seriously considered selling my Gen 4 26 because of my Shield. If I can't or don't want to carry the 19 I've been reaching for the Shield. I had some issues early on getting clean draws because the Shield felt really slick to me. I added a set of Talon grips and that fixed that issue.
The only failures I've had were three failure to extracts and all three were ammo induced. Got ahold of a box of ammo that had several light loads in it.
Guys- I'd like this thread to stay tech-oriented and focused on problem ID and resolution in the context of these guns and loads in particular. When adding your own experience with a Shield, helpful contributions will include specifics of round counts, loads used, and malfunctions as applicable. If you have a gun in the same ser# range or bearing the same machine markings as mine, identifying similar performance or otherwise would add meat to the thread. Otherwise, we end up with pages of "mine's fine", without anything else to take from it.
Anyone that's fired 147gr HydraShoks or the Corbon Pow'RBall load, sound off.
Guys- I'd like this thread to stay tech-oriented and focused on problem ID and resolution in the context of these guns and loads in particular. When adding your own experience with a Shield, helpful contributions will include specifics of round counts, loads used, and malfunctions as applicable. If you have a gun in the same ser# range or bearing the same machine markings as mine, identifying similar performance or otherwise would add meat to the thread. Otherwise, we end up with pages of "mine's fine", without anything else to take from it.
Anyone that's fired 147gr HydraShoks or the Corbon Pow'RBall load, sound off.
I hear you. No, I haven't shot anything but my present duty load (HST 147 gr), 115 American Eagle ( also supplied by my department for practice) and some former duty ammo I had stocked up on (Federal 115 BP and Remington 115 JHP). Sorry, I don't have anything other than that to offer.
UPDATE (03/20/2014)
Ammunition run-down for today:
100rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ
I had Shield(2) with me last night during some down time on the range. During a run of the Nebraska BUG course (shot first) I had a FTE with the PPU at round #15 of the 25rd course. That part of the stage is a D5 from concealment at the 5yd line. Later, I shot the new FBI Q course and had an identical FTE on stage 2 during a D3 from concealment at the 5yd line. That was about round #52 or so for the day. The balance of the COF went fine. I didn't have a camera with me, but the cases in both FTEs were horizontal, mouth forward, and were cleared easily. Ejection through the 100rds was erratic, with a number rearward. As always, I don't get too excited about that until the gun stops.
The PPU functioned fine during a range session on 01/04/2014, which was also reported here.
Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 100
Shield(2) cumulative total: 2014
Ok, I've been pondering this issue. I mentioned in this thread that I purchased a Shield 9mm from someone that had a slew of malfunctions similar to what you are experiencing; I actually witnessed him on the range having these problems. Problems that, for whatever reasons, have not surfaced for me shooting the same pistol in over 1,000 rounds. This phenomenom is not new to me. Back in the early nineties, my department started the transition to Glocks.
Frustration and disappointment was expressed by some of our members when they kept experiencing stoppages from stove pipes to FTE. Most of the cause was shooter induced; I'm willing to say that shooter induced stoppages made up about ninety percent of the problems that were encountered.
Many of the officers were veterans that had as much as 20 years mileage; more than a few were on the department's pistol team. Some of us adapted, but some didn't and were not allowed to carry the new 'plastic' 9mm pistols. Those officers returned to patrol with their tried and true S&W 38 revolvers. Now these pistols that some officers seemed to be having problems with weren't discarded to a waste pile. They were reissued to other officers that went through the same two week transition course without a hiccup and are being carried by officers on patrol to this day.
Four years ago I was looking for a Glock 26 for off duty and was contacted by a detective who informed me that he was selling his. I invited him to the Unit I was assigned to (which was equipped with its own range). I asked him why he was willing to part with it. He said that the gun malfunctioned constantly and was not as accurate and RELIABLE as his Glock19 that he normally carried on duty ( detectives or plain clothes units have the option of carrying the Glock 19, 26, 27, or 30).
I test fired the Glock 26 with 50 rounds of assorted ammo which included our 147 HST round without incident. This is the Glock 26 that I now carry off duty, and with thousands of rounds through it, have never experienced any of the malfunctions he experienced.
The majority of what I'm reading about the problems concerning the M&P shield, in my experience, seems to be largely shooter induced. Now I'm not trying to discount those that have obviously purchased a pistol with legitimate flaws stemming from negligent QC , however, some of the malfunctions and stoppages seem to be a shooter problem, and not a gun problem.
About a month ago I injured my wrist just before I had to go to weapons qualification. I didn't think my wrist was THAT bad and really didn't think that much about it until I started to experiencing FTE problems from my duty Glock 17. They were easy to clear, but I have carried , shot and maintained this gun since 1993 with NOT ONE problem! I think I was subconsciously compensating my injury by gripping the pistol, ever so slightly, differently. I say this because two weeks later I shot the same course ( wrist fully healed ), with the same ammo, and had no issues what so ever.
Which brings me to ergonomics of the gun vs the fit to the individual shooter's hand.
I'm convinced that all of these shooter induced stoppages are not a result of the individual's negligence of gripping the gun 'correctly' as much as it a compatibility issue between the shooter and a specific gun. All those years ago, I witness people I know could shoot, crash and burn on the transition course. Maybe, just maybe, you are experiencing a compatibility issue, and not necessarily a gun issue? I believe that there will always be a small minority of people whose experience with a quality product will be vastly contrary to the experiences of most; because it isn't right for them. They aren't compatible. Just a thought. I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but, MAN, are you having problems with this gun!
Ok, I've been pondering this issue. I mentioned in this thread that I purchased a Shield 9mm from someone that had a slew of malfunctions similar to what you are experiencing; I actually witnessed him on the range having these problems. Problems that, for whatever reasons, have not surfaced for me shooting the same pistol in over 1,000 rounds.
Do you have any information on the ammo involved in the malfunctions when your friend was shooting it?
The majority of what I'm reading about the problems concerning the M&P shield, in my experience, seems to be largely shooter induced. Now I'm not trying to discount those that have obviously purchased a pistol with legitimate flaws stemming from negligent QC , however, some of the malfunctions and stoppages seem to be a shooter problem, and not a gun problem.
Which brings me to ergonomics of the gun vs the fit to the individual shooter's hand.
I'm convinced that all of these shooter induced stoppages are not a result of the individual's negligence of gripping the gun 'correctly' as much as it a compatibility issue between the shooter and a specific gun. All those years ago, I witness people I know could shoot, crash and burn on the transition course. Maybe, just maybe, you are experiencing a compatibility issue, and not necessarily a gun issue? I believe that there will always be a small minority of people whose experience with a quality product will be vastly contrary to the experiences of most; because it isn't right for them. They aren't compatible. Just a thought. I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but, MAN, are you having problems with this gun!
I'm willing to consider all possible explanations. However, when I look at the similarity of issues across the diversity of shooters, I don't know that shooter variables are in play. I've shot the gun with grip methods that should create issues, but failed to.
A 9mm Shield I see often predates Shield(1). It runs like a top for me, its owner, and an assortment of others that have played with it, with an assortment of loads that had issues in other Shields. Then there is a .40 Shield that I can't make choke, despite serious attempts to do so. Perplexing, eh?
Here's a consolidated list of each load and quantity fired in Shield(2) to date. See if something sticks out to you.
52rds Corbon 95gr Performance Match FMJ
60rds Corbon Pow’RBall 100gr +P (PB09100/20), 1 headstamp-up failure to feed
100rds Corbon Performance Match 115gr FMJ
37rds Corbon 115gr JHP
90rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP (new)
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P
57rds Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP +P
100rds Federal 115gr FMJ RTP (RTP9115)
50rds Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (AE9DP)
100rds Federal Champion 115gr FMJ (WM51991), erratic ejection
50rds Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G, 1 FTE, erratic ejection
140rds Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2
50rds Federal 147gr JHP (9MS)
50rds Federal American Eagle IRT 147gr TMJ (AE9N2), 1 headstamp-up failure to feed
50rds Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (53620), rearward ejection
298rds Winchester 115gr FMJ (USA9mmVP), erratic ejection, 1 FTE (questionable-likely shooter)
20rds Winchester Supreme 147gr JHP PDX1, #S9mmPDB1
50rds Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138
200rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ, 2 FTE, erratic ejection
100rds PMC 115gr FMJ (9A)
50rds Magtech 115gr FMC (9A)
50rds HSM 100gr Reduced Ricochet (Frang), rearward ejection
100rds Herters-Sellier & Bellot (HRT9A)
60rds Herters-Blazer 115gr TNJ, erratic ejection
Breaking out the malfunctioning loads below. Remember, I don't consider ejection pattern problematic until it stops the gun.
60rds Corbon Pow’RBall 100gr +P (PB09100/20), 1 headstamp-up failure to feed
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G, 1 FTE, erratic ejection
50rds Federal American Eagle IRT 147gr TMJ (AE9N2), 1 headstamp-up failure to feed
298rds Winchester 115gr FMJ (USA9mmVP), erratic ejection, 1 FTE (questionable-likely shooter)
200rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ, 2 FTE, erratic ejection
Sum- 2 identical failures to feed with vastly different ammo, and 4 failures to eject, one of which I won't count against the gun as it's likely shooter induced. It's mathematically a very low failure rate and well within the acceptable thresholds of many users, but far higher than some other pistols, and without obvious trend.
It's kind of fascinating.
Definitly a perplexing predicament. Perplexing indeed. I look foward to your continued updates. Which, by the way, is the most detail and comprehensively written I've seen on any forum, concerning this subject. Thank you.
I've encountered the same issues as Skintop911 as I described in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?138215-M-amp-P-Shield-starting-to-have-problems.
If it was an occasional failure to extract that happened 500 rounds after the last cleaning I would just consider the gun good for carry as long as it is clean. However, this gun will sometimes go 100 rounds without a failure to extract, sometimes 70 rounds, or sometimes the failure to extract will occur within the first three rounds of the gun, depending on the ammo.
The gun has been back to S&W twice and has gotten worse. Originally it only had failures to extract with Winchester or Winchester cased ammo:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shieldproblem_zps2267e4c2.jpg
Now it has issues with Federal and Remington ammo as well as illustrated by this failure to eject of a Federal round where the empty case wound up in the ejection port backwards:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shield2014malf1_zps0ffb0aed.jpg
The gun is actually worse since I sent it back. I long for the days when the gun just had issues with Winchester.
I've encountered the same issues as Skintop911 as I described in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?138215-M-amp-P-Shield-starting-to-have-problems.
If it was an occasional failure to extract that happened 500 rounds after the last cleaning I would just consider the gun good for carry as long as it is clean. However, this gun will sometimes go 100 rounds without a failure to extract, sometimes 70 rounds, or sometimes the failure to extract will occur within the first three rounds of the gun, depending on the ammo.
The gun has been back to S&W twice and has gotten worse. Originally it only had failures to extract with Winchester or Winchester cased ammo:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shieldproblem_zps2267e4c2.jpg
Now it has issues with Federal and Remington ammo as well as illustrated by this failure to eject of a Federal round where the empty case wound up in the ejection port backwards:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shield2014malf1_zps0ffb0aed.jpg
The gun is actually worse since I sent it back. I long for the days when the gun just had issues with Winchester.
those rounds look awful dirty. I notice the knick where the extractor dug into the rim... it makes me think either the extractor does not have good purchase on the case rim or the brass is getting stuck in the chamber - too tight, too dirty, or case too wide. Is there a way to see if the case is too big or do they expand in the chamber like rifle rounds?
those rounds look awful dirty. I notice the knick where the extractor dug into the rim... it makes me think either the extractor does not have good purchase on the case rim or the brass is getting stuck in the chamber - too tight, too dirty, or case too wide. Is there a way to see if the case is too big or do they expand in the chamber like rifle rounds?
The first malfunction photo was from before the first time I sent it back and the second malfunction photo was from the after the second time I sent it back.
I've had three different extractors in the gun--the one it originally came with, the one that they replaced it with the first time I sent it back, and the one they replaced it with the scond time they sent it back.
The second time I sent it back, they also replaced the barrel.
YesNoNahYeah
04-02-14, 23:55
The majority of what I'm reading about the problems concerning the M&P shield, in my experience, seems to be largely shooter induced. Now I'm not trying to discount those that have obviously purchased a pistol with legitimate flaws stemming from negligent QC , however, some of the malfunctions and stoppages seem to be a shooter problem, and not a gun problem.
Is it truly a shooter problem if the gun has such a low tolerance when it comes to imperfections?
Is it truly a shooter problem if the gun has such a low tolerance when it comes to imperfections?
Yup. From what I've gathered from the information provided and personally witnessing this, I'd say that the few that are having these problems should sell the gun and stop beating a dead horse. For whatever reason the gun isn't working for you, and since you fall into the minority of people that are dissatisfied with the product, then maybe it's not a gun issue and it's a shooter/gun incompatible issue. Just a thought.
Unless we can explain shooter incompatibility in terms of traits possessed by the shooter who is incompatible with his pistol, then we are not likely to discover real causes for malfunctions. The big question should be why the pistol is incompatible with the shooter. My view is that ultimately we will have mechanical explanations for these issues. Unlike 1911s and other older designs, Glocks and S&W Shields defy tweaking because they are engineered to be assembled without the need for fitting parts. If one part doesn't fit, then the technician reaches into a big bucket to find a part that will fit.
Year ago, I called Beretta USA about one of my 92s and talked with a guy whose job was to assemble 92s. During our conversation, I learned that the man didn't own a firearm and had no interest whatsoever in shooting anything. He did confide in me that the powers that be in the Beretta hierarchy had zero interest in technicians' opinions.
Skintop, what is the factory recommended round count for replacing the recoil assembly on the Shield? How is Shield2's trigger pull now that you have shot it some? Is it improving? Do you think you will put in any Apex parts?
Thanks,
Vic
Skintop, what is the factory recommended round count for replacing the recoil assembly on the Shield? How is Shield2's trigger pull now that you have shot it some? Is it improving? Do you think you will put in any Apex parts? Thanks, Vic
I will defer to others on RSA replacement schedules in the M&P line, esp the Shield. I'll ask in my next conversation with S&W.
Shield(2) trigger quality is the nicest I've seen in any (OEM config) Shield to date. Several recent samples were good too.
I've held off on any changes to the gun for the time being. There are some balls in the air I'm waiting to land, and we'll see where this goes.
YesNoNahYeah
04-05-14, 20:46
Yup. From what I've gathered from the information provided and personally witnessing this, I'd say that the few that are having these problems should sell the gun and stop beating a dead horse. For whatever reason the gun isn't working for you, and since you fall into the minority of people that are dissatisfied with the product, then maybe it's not a gun issue and it's a shooter/gun incompatible issue. Just a thought.
I guess my thing is, guns should be compatible with all shooters, within reason. Compatible meaning they don't malfunction just because you're holding or gripping it in a way the gun doesn't like.
Just purchased a Shield 9mm yesterday. Love the feel of the gun and how well it carries. I put 100 rds of UMC 115 gr JHP thru it w/o any issues. I shot out to 12 yards and it was very accurate. Seems to be a great little carry piece and will replace my Glock 27 as backup once I get a few more rounds thru it. Only thing I do not like about it is you have to push down on the sear to field strip other than that it is a winner.
Thanks for the great thread.
Nightstalker865
04-06-14, 09:44
Just purchased a Shield 9mm yesterday. Love the feel of the gun and how well it carries. I put 100 rds of UMC 115 gr JHP thru it w/o any issues. I shot out to 12 yards and it was very accurate. Seems to be a great little carry piece and will replace my Glock 27 as backup once I get a few more rounds thru it. Only thing I do not like about it is you have to push down on the sear to field strip other than that it is a winner.
Thanks for the great thread.
You can simply pull the trigger to release the slide as well. Either way works just fine.
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Been shooting my example more lately. I'm very confident in the pistol, I went 5/7 at 50yds on steel at a brisk pace last weekend. A very capable small pistol. I am only running a Apex sear and have come to love the trigger. Running Hack front and 10-8 shaved U-notch rear.
You can simply pull the trigger to release the slide as well. Either way works just fine.
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thanks for the tip.
I guess my thing is, guns should be compatible with all shooters, within reason. Compatible meaning they don't malfunction just because you're holding or gripping it in a way the gun doesn't like.
Until you throw in a relatively small gun that fires a full powered cartridge. Then, the rules change.....more drastically than we think.
YesNoNahYeah
04-09-14, 14:48
Until you throw in a relatively small gun that fires a full powered cartridge. Then, the rules change.....more drastically than we think.
Except even full sized semi autos are very susceptible to grip-related malfunctions. Seems to be more prevalent among the polymer framed ones.
If it was shooter induced, why would it only happen once every couple hundred rounds, and with different full-power ammo. It should be more prevalent with weak ammo, right?
UPDATE
Reference post #65, 9/13/13
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?135400-WHAT-S-SHIPPING-SW-M-amp-P-Shield-9mm-w-Running-Review-(UPDATED-03-20-14)&p=1746445#post1746445
UPDATE
When I asked specifically about my magazines, the tech advised that none had been logged in when the gun was received. He was very gracious however, and said that two new magazines would be ordered for me. He could not advise when they would ship as they did not have any, demand was high, and that “it may be awhile.”
UPS delivered these two replacement magazines, one 7rd and one 8rd, yesterday (12/20/14).
SeriousStudent
12-21-14, 00:24
Thirteen weeks later..... Do you still own the pistol?
Thirteen weeks later..... Do you still own the pistol?
65 weeks. Thats some solid CS on their part...
JohnVassilakos
12-23-14, 19:25
WOW...65 weeks?!?!
They needed to send you 4 mags to make up for the YEAR PLUS that it took them...or at least hook you up with something!
I sent a 5" M&P9 in for poor accuracy earlier this year (old barrel design with horrible lockup wobble) and they had it back to me with a brand new barrel within a month. Reading this I'm glad I didn't have to wait THAT long...
Thirteen weeks later..... Do you still own the pistol?
WOW...65 weeks?!?!
They needed to send you 4 mags to make up for the YEAR PLUS that it took them...or at least hook you up with something!
I sent a 5" M&P9 in for poor accuracy earlier this year (old barrel design with horrible lockup wobble) and they had it back to me with a brand new barrel within a month. Reading this I'm glad I didn't have to wait THAT long...
Shield(2) sold in June with full disclosure to the new owner.
S&W did replace the mags with some extras mid-stream. I just found it curious that the initial replacement order remained live, and how long it took to be fulfilled.
Do you have a synopsis of your Shield experience? I get frequent requests for information on this gun and would like a short version of the events to refer folks to....
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