View Full Version : Which .45?
I am trying to choose a pistol for CCW and can't decide between the USP45, XD45 or FNP-45, and I am seeking the opinions of people who have actually used these weapons. I would appreciate it greatly if you could post your reasons for your choice.
I own 2 .45 pistols, the Springfield XD and a Kimber .45. My Kimber is a large frame and wouldnt do for CCW. I really like My XD and I believe it is one of the best .45 pistols for CCW. :)
I own a S&W M&P45, a S&W 1911PD (commander length) and a XD45. I've owned a Glock 21 as well.
I recommend you try a M&P45. It's a really nice shooting pistol. The XD45 is also a very fine gun and, other than the fat grip (the G21SF is a little better), the G21 I had was a nice shooting gun.
I only recently purchased the S&W 1911. Though I haven't been able to fire it yet, I can say, based on other 1911 guns I've owned) that if you like the 1911 style guns, they are very fine weapons, too!
the1911fan
04-14-08, 19:02
The S&W M&P 45 is not too big compared to the selections you listed
95% of the time I carry a 1911 of some type..so my vote is 1911
I am trying to choose a pistol for CCW and can't decide between the USP45, XD45 or FNP-45, and I am seeking the opinions of people who have actually used these weapons. I would appreciate it greatly if you could post your reasons for your choice.
I hope by USP 45 you mean the compact version because the full sized, at least for me would be a bit awkward to carry. Honestly my favorite (and what I carry) is a commander sized 1911. I can even carry a full sized 1911 without too much problem. Many don’t like to carry a 1911 because of the single action nature, but every gun is only as safe as the person carrying it. The XD is not too bad from what little I have tried to carry one, and for a hi-cap 45 it is surprisingly thin. I have never even held the FN so I can give no input on that.I hope this helps
I'd say either the HK45 or the M&P45
Parabellum9x19mm
04-14-08, 19:28
P220 and 1911s for me. both come in CCW variants.
Don't get an XD if you want to carry IWB....I found mine to be too thick for that.
YMMV. pick whatever fits your hands and preferences. try to shoot as many different guns as you can before you decide.
IrishDevil
04-14-08, 19:48
Personally, none of the above would cut it. M&P45 is more compact and has better ergos than the three above. I'm waiting on the M&P45 compact myself. Other than the M&P, I'm waiting on the HK45/HK45C to be available in the Variant 9 configuration. IMHO, you can't beat the M&P or HK45, as far as polymer 45s go.
I vote USP45. When I bought it, my choice was between that and a glock. I chose the USP partly becuase of the thumb safety feature. Now the M&P45 has this too. The full size USP is a bit large, but not too large. I am 5' 8" and 170 lbs, and can conceal it with little more than a L tshirt. I think the fact that it holds 12 + 1 with a full cap mag. Also, I felt that the pistol fit my hand fairly well, even though I have relatively small hands. I wold go with the USP, I have been shooting it exclusively for almost a year, and I haven' looked back since. It is an outstanding firearm. You can't go wrong with the full size USP full size.
Colt Lightweight Commander or Springfield Lightweight Champion, or maybe a Smith and Wesson 1911PD Scandium Commander Size.
Hell, I carry a full-size steel framed Gov't model comfortably, so any of these three ought to be a cinch.
-RD62
1911
the S&W M&P has received some great feedback from respectable sources as well (I have no first hand experience with one)
You can't go wrong with the M&P 45. You can't beat the price. I have fired 550 failure free rounds through mine thus far. The trigger gets better the more it is shot. It is worth looking at before your decision is made.
Sig 220 german no rail. llama maxI l/f bothe flawless and carry well.
XD45c...same capacity as M&P45 and a shorter grip at that.
I've never fired the FN. The samples I've handled seemed ok but were not particularly ergonomic for me.
The M&P45 would be my choice between the HK45 and the XD45. It's got by far the least muzzle flip, and I prefer the striker fired action to either the TDA or LEM of the H&K. But you should certainly consider the HK45 as well.
Whichever of those meets your needs and wants the best should serve you very well. Both have been extensively tested for a variety of extreme conditions your CCW gun is never likely to face. Both have great ergonomics and easily configurable grip sizes.
Both are also available in a more compact variant (in the M&P's case, two smaller variants) that you may want to consider.
Failure2Stop
04-14-08, 22:08
From personal experience with the pistols listed I would prefer an M&P 45 over all of them.
No question.
M&P45 or HK45 gets my vote.
usaffarmer
04-14-08, 22:53
M&P .45 with no thumb safety or lockout.
TUNNEL RAT 33
04-14-08, 23:01
1911 !!
I love my 1911 and my duty gun (Glock 21SF), but I would say: M&P45.
QuickStrike
04-15-08, 03:19
+1 for the M&P
Glock 21 for me-I have no problems with the size, and actually like the ergonomics, accuracy, durability and simplicity.
Best, Jon
XD45c...same capacity as M&P45 and a shorter grip at that.
since when?
did S&W release the "higher" cap mags yet?
1911. 103 years, says alot.
1911. 103 years, says alot.
uh, 2008 - 1911 gives me 97 years...
If you are willing to spend the time and money for a properly customized lightweight 5" single stack 1911, you will be well served for CCW: (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=57950&page=&fpart=1&vc=1)
If you are not ready to drop $3500 or so and wait a year or two for a properly customized 1911, the M&P45 is a great choice, especially with a nice trigger job and maybe some frame stippling by Bowie or Burwell.
The HK45 is probably the next most viable option, although I personally don't shoot them quite as well as 1911's or M&P's...
M&P45 without question.
Stephen
Gunfighter13
04-15-08, 14:30
Lots of MP45 cool aid flowing on this post. O..M..G.., I cannot believe that you cool aid drinkers are comparing a MP45 to a 1911.
From the three listed
1. USPc45-have used and carried one- big and bulkey compaired to a 1911.
2. XDc45-Good shooting guns bad ergonomics for me so I'm still with a 1911.
3. FNp-45-Have not seen a 45 only 9mm but I liked the 9mm. 1911 shoot better and had better ergonomics.
After that, a commander length 1911.
Then a Glock.
uh, 2008 - 1911 gives me 97 years...
Mr. Browning designed the gun in 1905, with adoption from the army in 1911.
I really like the G30. It is not everyone's cup of tea but it fits my hand well, and is very accurate.
Tommy Gun w/violin case
:D
Tommy Gun w/violin case
:D
I wish! :D
tumbleweed1002
04-15-08, 18:41
Hands down the XD!!
bullitt5172
04-15-08, 19:11
None of the above - M&P45, HK45 or a 1911.
RogerinTPA
04-15-08, 20:42
M&P45 in Flat Dark Earth!:D The FNP is waaaay to huge for concealed carry, unless you have a "sasquach" type build. If I wanted to tap into my 401K, I'd get the HK!:p
Larry Vickers
04-15-08, 22:05
IMO the 2 best new .45 service pistols on the market are the M&P 45 and the HK 45 - they are in a league of their own
Both are easily tweaked for optimum performance and are accurate and reliable right out of the box - for the money I think the M&P is a better choice but the HK 45 is a more bomb proof pistol - I know first hand what went into the testing and development of it - for a service pistol it is as rugged and reliable as any 45 made today
be safe
LAV
My preference would be a S&W M&P 45 if your after a double action. The SIG P220 is also a great alternative as well as a Glock 21. You can't go wrong with a 1911 style .45 ACP however and it is my first choice!
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-15-08, 23:08
HK45 or properly tuned 1911.
I continue to enjoy shooting this pistol, and after 800 rds, I can find no fault with its design, performance, and quality. This choice nicely complements my handgun collection and now serves as my bedside weapon along with my Rem 870 Marine Mag. At 6'2" and 225 lbs the FNP-.45 works for casual concealed carry when placed in my waistband and secured by a wide belt.
I'm a senior citizen and recently retired(again), and spend as much time as possible along creek and river banks in Central Texas. My ramblings are done in an isolated area. Sometimes I encounter wild hogs, poisonous snakes, packs of wild dogs, and an occasional stranger. The hogs are not an issue unless Big Mama perceives a threat to her young; I avoid the snakes. Wild dogs, having no fear of man, are truly vicious. The stranger bears watching. My outings have been safe and uneventful. The 15 shot .45 is a comforting companion.
Willie-jc
variablebinary
04-15-08, 23:13
I am trying to choose a pistol for CCW and can't decide between the USP45, XD45 or FNP-45, and I am seeking the opinions of people who have actually used these weapons. I would appreciate it greatly if you could post your reasons for your choice.
I got to demo the HK45c and I thought it was OUTSTANDING. Perhaps the best compact CCW .45 I have handled. For sure a better CCW option than anything you listed...
Try it...no really...try it....
http://www.hk-usa.com/images/products/hk45c/lg_hk45c.jpg
Mr. Browning designed the gun in 1905, with adoption from the army in 1911.
uh, I knew that....
;)
docholliday
04-16-08, 01:12
Although I'm sure he carries several different guns, Clint Smith carries a XD in a Milt Sparks summer special IWB. I've carried my 5" Les Baer in a Versamax II, and currently carry my XD45 compact in a bladetech IWB (my versamax II should be here in August). I'm 5'6" 170 and can hide either gun w/ a t- shirt.
Not to hijack the thread...I just picked up a Kahr P9 but I am wondering if anyone has experience with the .45 models?
MarshallDodge
04-16-08, 11:03
My vote would be with a Commander size 1911.
I carry a Dan Wesson Classic Bobtail:
http://www.cz-usa.com/products_dan_wesson.php
Before the DW I had a Springfield Champion. The DW is a much nicer gun for the money than the Springfield but the Springfield is still a good gun.
The other guns on your poll are just too big for CCW in my opinion. If I had to pick from the three it would be the XD in the Compact configuration.
I've owned a Colt 1911 Commander (not the lightweight) since January 2002 and have carried it (CCW) on a regular basis for years. My current rig for it is a C-Tac IWB kydex high ride. Even though it has never been detected by anyone,I have never been as comfortable about its "undetectability" as I am with my Springfield XD-45C which purchased a year ago. This of course is with the 10+1 magazine inserted. Even with the 13+1 mag I feel more confident about it not being detected than my Colt.
To boot, I haven't even purchased a good holster for the XD yet! I'm using a cheap Bagmaster IWB nylon holster. The XD fits my hand like a glove and is very accurate. I'm _slightly_ more accurate with the Colt (read insignificant in the end result of a life threatening situation) and equally proficient with both.
I have to go with a vote for the Springfield XD45C with one caveat. Spend an extra $20 at Cactus Tactical (or some other dealer) and try out the new Decal _Sandgrips_ for the XD's. They make a world of difference in grip and feel of the weapon,especially if you have sweaty palms or just don't like the "feel" of polymer grips.
One last thing, a friend of mine who recently(read last year) purchased a $800 Springfield 1911 for carry is thinking of getting a different .45 soon because of his apprehensions about "cocked and locked" carry. He didn't think this would be a problem for him at time of purchase, but soon found that actually carrying a cocked and locked gun caused him to worry. He started carrying it empty chamber/full mag. I have convinced him this would be no good when TSHTF. Hence his decision to seek another type of .45. Just something to consider in purchasing.
I would love to try out an FNP-45 because I'm sure it's an outstanding handgun, but until that happens my money would go for an HK45/HK45C or M&P45. I also see absolutely no reason to spend money on USP's now that the HK45/HK45C are readily available.
olds442tyguy
04-16-08, 16:30
I voted other, but if I had to pick from the three I'd go with the XD. The FNP (45 only) and USP full size grip profiles are ergonomic murder on my hands.
RAM Engineer
04-16-08, 18:23
I'd say either the HK45 or the M&P45
Ditto.
Budget - M&P45 (Burwell tweaked)
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z302/mpardun/MPs_MandP45.jpg
Money not an issue - Custom 1911:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z302/mpardun/KobraBlondDaimondbacks.jpg
Alpha Sierra
04-17-08, 08:26
Take your pick:
Model 325
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/163421_large.jpg
Model 25
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/150124_large.jpg
Model 22
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/150187_large.jpg
Me, I'd take the middle one.
I am trying to choose a pistol for CCW and can't decide between the USP45, XD45 or FNP-45, and I am seeking the opinions of people who have actually used these weapons. I would appreciate it greatly if you could post your reasons for your choice.
I would greatly appreciate the word "weapon" to not be used to describe a "firearm".
I "use" all sorts of firearms in other ways. Just to call them "weapons" is pretty much void of all intelligence.
To sum it up if you were arguing for the second Amendment you would not use the word "weapon". You would say, pistol, rifle, shotgun etc.
If you were a communist swine and wanted to strike down the 2nd Amendment you would use crude language like "weapon" to describe firearms.
On another note your trying to get opinions on what you should be using as a CCW. But no one here can tell you which one is most comfortable for YOU. Or which one YOU shoot the best with. All of us giving our opinion on those pistols does nothing but say that they are quality and can all be counted on.
I would greatly appreciate the word "weapon" to not be used to describe a "firearm".
"Any tool is a weapon if you hold it right." Ani Difranco
"Weapon" is a perfectly acceptable term for appropriate firearms here.
Seems to me that if firearms are no longer weapons, we're going to be left with "sporting purposes" and "target shooting" as the only acceptable uses. I pray every time I put my pistol on my belt that I don't have to use it as a weapon, but that is sure what it is if it ever comes off my belt.
The original poster asked about CCW use--that by definition is a weapon.
I would greatly appreciate the word "weapon" to not be used to describe a "firearm".
I "use" all sorts of firearms in other ways. Just to call them "weapons" is pretty much void of all intelligence.
To sum it up if you were arguing for the second Amendment you would not use the word "weapon". You would say, pistol, rifle, shotgun etc.
If you were a communist swine and wanted to strike down the 2nd Amendment you would use crude language like "weapon" to describe firearms.
.
You are wrong sir. 100% completely and utterly wrong. They most certainly ARE weapons. From the day they were first invented, they were weapons. The fact that they can be used for other things, is irrelevant.
Parabellum9x19mm
04-17-08, 15:24
I would greatly appreciate the word "weapon" to not be used to describe a "firearm".
I "use" all sorts of firearms in other ways. Just to call them "weapons" is pretty much void of all intelligence.
To sum it up if you were arguing for the second Amendment you would not use the word "weapon". You would say, pistol, rifle, shotgun etc.
If you were a communist swine and wanted to strike down the 2nd Amendment you would use crude language like "weapon" to describe firearms.
Apparently you were never in the military :rolleyes: if you were you'd be quite used to saying "weapon" instead of "gun" or "firearm".
while i'm at it....hey Mactastic, where's Flownominal and Thugnificent?
Apparently you were never in the military :rolleyes: if you were you'd be quite used to saying "weapon" instead of "gun" or "firearm".
while i'm at it....hey Mactastic, where's Flownominal and Thugnificent?
+1 the weapons I own are as close to the military weapons i train with.
Apparently you were never in the military :rolleyes: if you were you'd be quite used to saying "weapon" instead of "gun" or "firearm".
while i'm at it....hey Mactastic, where's Flownominal and Thugnificent?
haha that was quite funny. Actually during my time the word "weapon" was all a rifle, pistol, shotgun,subgun, etc was ever called. never made much sense to me. Call it what it is, not what it can be used as.
I must be one of the few that can see that a "pistol" or "rifle" can be used as a tool in right hands and not necessarily a "weapon"
That logic being stated sounds like it came from the same dumbass that told me that the only reason there was to point a rifle or pistol at a person was to shoot them.
I better go check my dd214 to see if i really was in. haha cute comments though. Devoid of any intelligence.
It's you fools that refer to various firearms as "weapons" all the time that get the liberals all worked up.
bullitt5172
04-17-08, 17:41
haha that was quite funny. Actually during my time the word "weapon" was all a rifle, pistol, shotgun,subgun, etc was ever called. never made much sense to me. Call it what it is, not what it can be used as.
I must be one of the few that can see that a "pistol" or "rifle" can be used as a tool in right hands and not necessarily a "weapon"
That logic being stated sounds like it came from the same dumbass that told me that the only reason there was to point a rifle or pistol at a person was to shoot them.
I better go check my dd214 to see if i really was in. haha cute comments though. Devoid of any intelligence.
That is exactly how I would describe YOUR comments ;) Arguing over "weapon" or "tool" is plain stupid and pointless. Guns are weapons as well as tools.
It's you fools that refer to various firearms as "weapons" all the time that get the liberals all worked up.
And I thought your original post was lacking intelligence, your edit was even farther from reality.
haha that was quite funny. Actually during my time the word "weapon" was all a rifle, pistol, shotgun,subgun, etc was ever called. never made much sense to me. Call it what it is, not what it can be used as.
I must be one of the few that can see that a "pistol" or "rifle" can be used as a tool in right hands and not necessarily a "weapon".
Oh ok, so good guys use tools, and bad guys use weapons.
What a freaking dumbass notion. :rolleyes:
They are weapons. Period. Your inability to accept reality does not change what they are.
You know, enough crap. Mactastic, your on the wrong forum for semantical bullshit. Drop it. Now.
Parabellum9x19mm
04-17-08, 18:06
better go check my dd214 to see if i really was in.
not necessary, i totally believe you. the fact that you are a former marine makes it seem even stranger to me that you have a dislike to the word "weapon" when used in that context.
i figure you would have gotten used to it. i guess not.
to get back on topic:
1911 Commander or SIG-Sauer P220 Carry.
It's cool. I suppose over time you find other uses for firearms than just as weapons. For instance, my 9mm is currently being used as a paperweight on my desk.
bullitt5172
04-17-08, 21:10
It's cool. I suppose over time you find other uses for firearms than just as weapons. For instance, my 9mm is currently being used as a paperweight on my desk.
haha why so serious!? Back to the usual "the zombies are coming, what should I own?" posts.
Read more, post less....this isn't ARFcom ;)
Back to the topic, I have a HK45 that I haven't shot yet. I'm not a huge fan of the ergos yet. I think I prefer the feel the M&P 45. More comforable when shooting with a thumbs forward grip. The rear of the HK is a little too blocky for me.
While bullitt isn't responsible for such things, Hawkeye and I are, and bullitt has it right.
If you are going to post childish quips, "Read more and post less...."
So, everyone in this thread needs to get back on topic and cut out the BS as of this post. Unless some people would like to forfeit their ability to post on this forum. :)
Thanks
sorry but back to the topic....i am right now at a standstill in my debate over a new .45...have fired the xd, kahr, usp, g30/36 but the finalists for me are the m&p and the hk45.... love the ergos on both -wish the hk45c had the same grip st its big bro...of course itd be great to add the hk to my stable but since its a toss up i think im going with the m&p, my guy locally bought 40 of them and claims a great deal on one with NS, made even greater if i get off my tail and do it before the 30th...would really love the hk but i def like the LEM trigger i have shot on the both the uspand p2000 and know that my m&p trigger warmed up after a few hundred...plus burwell is driving distance from me JIC...
For CCW I would hold off until the new Smith&Wesson M&P45 Compact comes out (should be another 4-8 weeks hopefully), or if single action is an option for you, I would take a long look at the Sig P220 Carry SAO. I am currently trying to get the funds together to pick up one of the "Gov. overrun" P220 carry SAO's that have the beavertail and the checkered frontstrap. The Elite version of the P220 Carry SAO is sweet as well.
The HK45c grip feels much better to me than the HK45, wish they had kept the original grip on the full size as well.
Do yourself a favor and just say no to Sig .45's...
Parabellum9x19mm
04-18-08, 00:43
Do yourself a favor and just say no to Sig .45's...
i only own SIGs in 9mm and .40/.357, but i have shot quite a few P220s in various flavors and i like them.
i'm sure you must have some reasons why you'd advise against P220s, what are they? is it a matter of size, thickness, weight?
As has been discussed numerous times, the .45 ACP P220 is a somewhat problematic and not very durable platform-there are better choices.
Here are some quotes from LE agency armorers re. the P220:
"My PD issues SIG pistols; P-220s in .45, the 226, 228,and 239 in 9MM. The dept split is about 35% .45ACP and 65% 9MM. I have been the
lead full-time firearms instructor/armorer for the past 12 years. As a LEO,I carried my Colt Govt or Commander from 78-90, switched to P-220 from 90-93, and carried a P-228 from then to present. With all that in mind, here are a few of my observations:
1. The P-220 is probably the most accurate service pistol right out of the box.
2. The P-220 is much more finicky about duty ammo than any of the SIG 9MMs. Winchester RA45T work just fine.
3. I see 10 times more parts break in P-220s than any of the SIG 9MMs. The 9MMs are just much more reliable. That's the reason I have carried one as a trainer and as a SWAT officer.
4. P-220 magazines have experienced several changes. The early "small zipper seam" mags had poor top welds and were prone to splitting. We replaced all of those with the later "trapezoidal seam" mags and have not split and of those. Heavily used mags may develop small cracks from the rear feed rail cut, causing the mag lips to lose a certain amount of tension. We have not seen very many of these but they do occur and the mag should be replaced. (the SIG 8 rounders are trash, stay away) The newest stainless, made by Mec-Gar for SIG, seem to work alright but we have only been using them for about 3 years.
5. Early P-220s, without the hammer reset spring, were surplused out as a safety hazard, relating to the decocking lever vs thumb relax issue.
6. All of our SIGs are surplussed out after 10 years of in inventory. This is done primarily due to the constant changes made to SIG pistols by SIG and the failure of SIG to communicate these changes to their SIG certified armorers.
Overall, SIGs are pretty darn good service pistols for LE use, but the 9MMs will prove to be much more reliable and durable than the P-220 .45. I would not use a P-220 .45 in any demanding military role which required the pistol to be fired ALOT. If you are going to fire this P-220 pistol ALOT then you'll need spare roll pins, trigger bar springs, trigger bars, slide catch springs, locking pieces, trigger pivot pins, and hammer reset springs. Or, you could just carry a P-226 or P-228 in 9MM, know that your pistol will work, pay attention to shot placement, and have a wonderful life."
Another:
"I am a factory trained Sig armorer and worked at an agency where we issued the p226 and p220. I did most of the preventative maintenance on the guns, they came in once a year. At about 3-5K rounds we began to notice the P220s were having more parts break including trigger bars,and reset springs. A few craked locking pieces and the roll pins seemed to walk out regardless of how and who put them in the pistols. Magazines fed and functioned fine however each different style had problems the best were the later Mec-Gar units but they did sometimes crack at the rear edge. The P226 pistols just kept on going mine has over 53,000 though it with just changing the springs. A frequent P220 problem was the trigger return spring coming off during recoil forcing you to reset the trigger by hand each time you pulled it. This could be a fatal problem in a lethal force encounter and it happened enough that some shooters were pretty good at finishing the course of fire with a broken or missing spring on the trigger return. For concealed carry or as a police issue sidearm with a rigorous maintenance program The P220 is a very accurate handy platform. You pay the price for the alloy frame with more battering to the parts. We had to replace the frame on a SWAT 220 with Surfire attached due to cracks. SWAT later switched to the H&K USP45 and did not have any parts breakage but did get some problem magazines that were eventually sorted out to be the wrong lot number for our pistols.(the lot we received was slated for destruction but was shipped instead) I wonder if the good mags were thrashed... And yes Sig is bad about getting updates to armorers thats why they want you to go back to school every few years they do want to make money too."
Every agency I am aware of that issues both the P220 and P226 has substantially more reliability and durability issues with the P220.
Glock 37, 38, and 39 the best .45s
.45 GAP!
variablebinary
04-18-08, 03:07
I picked up a new LMT lower today and got the chance to fondle and put a mag through the HK45c again
Hands down, best feeling compact .45 sold. Shoots great, decent trigger, outstanding ergos.
It would be a crime to consider a CCW .45 and not at least finger bang the HK45c. Its head and shoulders above the other pistols in the poll. Gun show this weeked. If I can score a decent deal on one it will join the collection.
Glock 37, 38, and 39 the best .45s
.45 GAP!
mmmmmm, The .45 GAP, the perfect answer to a question all ready answered.;)
Do yourself a favor and just say no to Sig .45's...
C'mon Doc! You just killed the buzz I had from finger-banging a P220 Carry SAO earlier today. Sure did feel sweet! I guess I still have a little nostalgia for the P220 since it was my first semi-auto duty pistol. Oh well....
SperlingPE
04-18-08, 08:31
Colt Defender - slim and compact
Jay Cunningham
04-18-08, 08:35
I voted "other" - M&P45.
:)
variablebinary
04-18-08, 10:09
C'mon Doc! You just killed the buzz I had from finger-banging a P220 Carry SAO earlier today. Sure did feel sweet! I guess I still have a little nostalgia for the P220 since it was my first semi-auto duty pistol. Oh well....
I like the 220 Carry SAO as well. The reports of the safety falling out has scared me off though
For those who don't know already, as background I was the fed/mil guy at SIG for five years (2002-2007). During that time, I carried a P220 on and off, total of probably 18 months or so.
It's hard for me to say that one model or design was the "most" problematic, primarily because I had, for instance, tens of thousands of customers using the P229R-40-DAK and only maybe a thousand using the P220 in any variant. However, I was usually privy to what other major LE agencies were going through, and certainly when major agencies dropped their P220s or SIGs in general.
These are my thoughts, take them for what they're worth:
The P220, as the oldest SIG P22x-series gun, has been through a number of revisions. The frame was beefed up considerably in the 90's. The slide design was completely changed a few years ago. Many of the internal parts have been updated over time, too. (it's worth noting that none of this is particularly unusual in the industry)
No one should be surprised that two essentially identical guns, one in 9mm and one in 45 Auto, would have different lifecycles. The 45 is putting much more stress on the gun. (see, e.g., the recent thread on .40-cal Glocks as compared to their 9mm brethren)
Some P220s now come with the "competition" takedown lever, which is substantially beefed up over the regular one. The "competition" version is identifiable by having a dot inside a circle on the side opposite the paddel; standard ones are flat. I examined a number of P220 variants at a local gun shop the other day and there didn't seem to be any consistency in how the parts are assigned to various models. One exception is the P220 Combat, which have always come with the competition takedown lever. In my experience, the standard version breaks anywhere from 15-25k and renders the gun completely dead. I never put that many rounds through a competition version but based on what the engineering department told me, they survived 30k tests for the Combat.
For the old style slides with the roll pins, it's important to replace the pins at least every 5k rounds. This is true for all SIG P22x-series guns with two-part slides. Otherwise, over time, the breech block will get loose, the slide will lose stiffness, and the steel slide will flex against the aluminum frame. This frequently results in frame cracks. Plenty of people have gone tens of thousands of rounds with their SIGs by replacing these pins.
For the new style one-piece stainless slides (identifiable by the solid firing pin positioning pin instead of the dual roll pins in the slide), the biggest gremlin has been the extractor. There have been problems since day one. I was actually one of the last people to believe there was a problem (mea culpa) because my personal P220ST -- the first model to use this slide and extractor -- went over 18,500 rounds before it suffered its first extraction failure. But many people had problems much earlier. Ernest Langdon used to put extractors in his kitchen oven to heat treat them better, and even then he was replacing them every 3k or so to maintain reliability. SIG lost some major and minor LE contracts over the problem. Various fixes have been tried over the years (better heat treat QC, better dimensional QC, etc) but recently SIG finally switched to an external extractor like the ones found on all other stainless slide P22x-series guns. I haven't even handled one in person but hopefully this will put the extraction issues to bed.
The second P220ST I got (in 2006) had multiple failures to go into battery. After 550 rounds, I sent it back. I instead began using a P220R (which had the same type slide) and had two stoppages in about 4,500 rounds. If not for costs of ammo and mag capacity, I probably would have kept carrying it. It ran very well and was, of course, as accurate as I could ever hope to be with a handgun.
My personal experience with the SAO mechanism was negative; I personally wouldn't use one.
The P220, as many have said, is an almost magically accurate pistol.
The mags have also gone through some changes. The original 7rd mags were fine. Then there was a demand for 8rd, so the first bandaid was to shove eight rounds into the 7rd tube; that was a disaster. Then a slightly extended genuine 8rd magazine was created. It worked fine for standard pressure ammo and some (not all) +p ammo. The real problem was that the top round would move forward under recoil, and the mags would not drop free if the gun had been fired. SIG didn't think this was important enough to change when Ernest Langdon and I raised the issue in early 2003. Once the JCP program (SOCOM .45) picked up speed, some military people commented to SIG that the failure of the mags to drop free might be a problem and so suddenly everyone was running around screaming "Why didn't someone warn us about this sooner!" :rolleyes: SIG then redesigned the 8rd mags with a little dimple below the feed lips to keep the top round in place. This also resolved issues that some departments, such as Henricho Co. VA, were having (Henricho still switched to .40-cal Glocks, though, as the fix didn't happen soon enough).
FWIW, I've found the factory 10rd magazines to be as reliable and durable as the 8rd.
Prior to the HK45 and M&P45, the P220 would have been my first pic in a forty-five. A random box-stock P220 is certainly more reliable than a random box-stock 1911. While it may need more attention and TLC than a P226 in 9mm, it requires less than a 1911.
When I test-fired the first M&P45 prototype in the summer of '06, I immediately sent my boss at SIG an email from my Blackberry that ended with, "We're in big trouble." :cool:
I would have to say that I've probably seen more P220-carrying agencies switch to another brand over the past six years, though, than have switched away from any other SIG model. I don't think that's all because of reliability/durability issues, but certainly that was the case in some instances.
Reading back through this, I realized I forgot to mention the first P220 I ever owned, which was bought years before I got into the firearms industry. I don't have the records in front of me, but that gun (which used the old style slide with the new upgraded frame and hammer) failed at around 2,500 rounds I want to say (give or take maybe 1k). The hammer rebound spring broke and dislodged itself, shutting the gun down. It was a quick fix for an armorer (which I was not, at the time).
Parabellum9x19mm
04-18-08, 13:13
That's exactly the kind of info I was wondering about. Thanks for taking the time to share all that personal experience and observation.
Given what you've stated, I'm even happier that I invested in P226s instead of P220s (even tho I love shooting the 220s). At this point, with the number of P226s and mags, holsters & accessories I have right now, I'm basically married to the platform, for better or worse :p
My daily carry is a P250C. I know its not for everyone, but I was surprised at how quickly I took to it.
I am very curious to see how the .45 variant of the P250 pans out. Only time will tell, but I truly hope its every bit as reliable and accurate as the 9mm model. The .45 version might be my next .45ACP pistol. But then again...so far all my .45s have been 1911s, I might have a hard time breaking that pattern.
Id get the HK45c (Not the USP 45)
I am trying to choose a pistol for CCW and can't decide between the USP45, XD45 or FNP-45, and I am seeking the opinions of people who have actually used these weapons. I would appreciate it greatly if you could post your reasons for your choice.
All good guns (I have tried them all too).
For CCW, the compact models work better for me: USP45C/HK45C, and XD45C. The full size guns have grips that are just too long for me (especially the XD and FNP.
Would like to see a compact version of the FNP45, say a 3.5 - 4.0 bbl w shorter grip frame/mag.
The M&P45 w 4 in bbl is another good choice, but I would like to see a shorter grip frame on that too.
Pave_rifle
04-19-08, 21:21
A parkarized SIGARMS P220 Carry in SAO.
Goes bang every time I pull the trigger, fits my hand, easy to disassemble, & brings the SIG name to the game. It even carries well either behind the hip, under the shoulder, or on the thigh.
However your mileage may very.
:cool:
Powder Burns
04-20-08, 21:37
I'd go with the pistol that you shoot best and feels most natural in your hand, out of the choices listed they are all pretty good bets. For CCW I can not recommend a glock due to the fact that they don't have manual safetys, however I found the safety mechanisms on the springfield xd to be much better in that in combines some features of the glock as well as the 1911. They shoot great, are slim, lightweight, and still has features like foward serrations on the slide and a rail for mounting accessories. Personally I carry a hk uspc in .45 auto but I can't say its necessarily the best choice due to its price and avaliability of parts. The S&W pistols are very comfortable but I never liked the way they field stripped for cleaning.
Final recommendations: New HK45c or Springfield XD.
What a question for me to jump into for my first post. I own or have owned MANY .45's over the years. And I used to shoot in the US Army's CIG Marksmanship event each year I was in the service so I might just know a bit about handling .45's . It's hard to stray from the good ol' M1911. If it ain't broke-don't try to fix it. But given todays choices and the vast increasing market of the Uber pistol and if money isn't the issue, then look no further than a new H&K. Yes the USP speaks volumes for it's endorsements. If the US S.E.A.L. teams use them and swears by them then that should end any discussions about any other ccw. If you want to go old school and you are lucky enough to find one try the HK P9s .45. I own one and it probably the best all around slim, multi-functional (including internal hammer and thumb cocker-decocker) .45 ever created. If money is an issue.....buy a used HK
Remember there are 3 things the Germans make real well---Weapons ( ask the Russians,French and Polish) Cars and Beer. :D
What a question for me to jump into for my first post. I own or have owned MANY .45's over the years. And I used to shoot in the US Army's CIG Marksmanship event each year I was in the service so I might just know a bit about handling .45's . It's hard to stray from the good ol' M1911. If it ain't broke-don't try to fix it. But given todays choices and the vast increasing market of the Uber pistol and if money isn't the issue, then look no further than a new H&K. Yes the USP speaks volumes for it's endorsements. If the US S.E.A.L. teams use them and swears by them then that should end any discussions about any other ccw. If you want to go old school and you are lucky enough to find one try the HK P9s .45. I own one and it probably the best all around slim, multi-functional (including internal hammer and thumb cocker-decocker) .45 ever created. If money is an issue.....buy a used HK
Remember there are 3 things the Germans make real well---Weapons ( ask the Russians,French and Polish) Cars and Beer. :D
I've not been around long enough for the frost to have melted off my butt, but allow me to say welcome, anyway.
speaking for myself, and myself only, given your previous experience, I welcome your input if it can be delivered w/o the imprimatur of the One and Holy God delivering the 10 Commandments to Moses. I understand that among the BTDT folks, strong personal opinions are the norm. But this forum, from what I have seen, is populated primarily by those with strong experience. very strong, in many cases. Why they tolerate my presence, I don't know but I try to remain on the floor, under the table, scouring for scraps...
that said, I don't believe that simply, "If the US S.E.A.L. teams use them and swears by them then that should end any discussions about any other ccw"
I know the "teams" have adapted many tools to their particular roles, but that doesn't mean that that role is specifically civilian CCW. Now I'm not saying that you are wrong, necessarily - I'm not personally familiar with the WEAPON in question, just that I don't automatically buy into the concept that there is ONE best answer to any question and the SEALS have already found that answer. my point being that their needs and my needs more than likely not similar.
but I do agree about the German beer thing though... ;)
Soulrack223
04-21-08, 10:04
I would choose a quality 1911, a Sig 220, a Glock 21 or a S&W M&P over the three you mentioned. YMMV
Parabellum9x19mm
04-21-08, 10:20
I haven't shot the HK45 yet, so I won't try to pass judgment on it either way.
I'm curious of the lifespan of the rubber o-ring on the barrel in terms of rounds or extended firing. It is a very unusual design feature.
Powder Burns
04-21-08, 10:35
That o-ring doesn't really do anything anyway. The gun won't function any different without it.
bluedog -- It's funny you should ask. I just got my new M&P9 today.
The rails of all current production guns are being radiussed to eliminate the possibility of this problem recurring. As I understand it, they've seen about a dozen pistols with that same crack. The belief is that each time that particular cutting tool (for making the slide rails) was replaced with a new one, the new one was making such a perfectly sharp edge that the first slide it cut had the potential for this breakage.
A dozen cracked slides out of close to 300,000 delivered pistols is a small enough number that they could have just shrugged it off, but they actually created a new test protocol to evaluate various configuration options before finalizing on the new production spec.
I've not been around long enough for the frost to have melted off my butt, but allow me to say welcome, anyway.
speaking for myself, and myself only, given your previous experience, I welcome your input if it can be delivered w/o the imprimatur of the One and Holy God delivering the 10 Commandments to Moses. I understand that among the BTDT folks, strong personal opinions are the norm. But this forum, from what I have seen, is populated primarily by those with strong experience. very strong, in many cases. Why they tolerate my presence, I don't know but I try to remain on the floor, under the table, scouring for scraps...
that said, I don't believe that simply, "If the US S.E.A.L. teams use them and swears by them then that should end any discussions about any other ccw"
I know the "teams" have adapted many tools to their particular roles, but that doesn't mean that that role is specifically civilian CCW. Now I'm not saying that you are wrong, necessarily - I'm not personally familiar with the WEAPON in question, just that I don't automatically buy into the concept that there is ONE best answer to any question and the SEALS have already found that answer. my point being that their needs and my needs more than likely not similar.
but I do agree about the German beer thing though... ;)
Heck, I welcome all responses for or against. And thanks for the greeting. And your right, there are many answers to all questions. I simply meant to point out that certain organizations with elite standing in out military and security forces have chose the USP for 1 of their modis opperendi sic: I just like to stand on my soapbox every now and then and pound my head..CHEST I meant Chest. So lets raise our mugs to the the Germans for Beer and H&K's.... PROST :D
UpNorthWolf
04-22-08, 16:58
First series Kimber Pro CDP. Love it.
Yes the USP speaks volumes for it's endorsements. If the US S.E.A.L. teams use them and swears by them then that should end any discussions about any other ccw
That would be true...if they didn't issue and carry Sig P226s.
I'm not a SEAL but I sure do see a lot of them and work with them often...and save for a handful (less than I can count on one hand) I have never seen an HK. When I did it was a MK23 set up for hide site defense.
I'm sure one of my flippered friends here can clarify.
Not a SEAL but used to sell them their pistols. :cool:
The P226 is still standard issue. Some Teams purchased 9mm H&K pistols for "suppressed use" ... don't know how many of them are actually fielded. The majority of the Mk23's were, last I knew, still in crates. Their use is very limited (but not zero, as M4Guru pointed out).
There have been a number of pushes by the Teams (collectively or individually) to switch to something else, but the constant threat of the SOCOM Pistol/JCP program(s) kept the change at bay.
It's not like that's a bad thing, either.
I would carry a Sig 226 in a heartbeat if that's what they handed me.
A Colt's 1911 pistol in 45 ACP (preferably a good Series 70 with collet bushing replaced or earlier or one of the lovely, early production WW I re-introduction Colts introduced not so long ago. Unfortunately most of the Colt's GM's post-1950's require some minimal but competent gunsmithing which is less easy to find than one might think to return to John Moses' basic specs and to allow feeding of modern JHP ammunition. The SA auto is only useful, however, if you've had training and practice in carrying and using the piece. I feel most comfortable with it but I've been carrying one for close to the half century point. Otherwise, one of the below DA/SA autos.
Second choice a SIG P-220 in 45 ACP for accuracy and durability. Some years ago, it was the only pistol I'd trust to pick up out of the box, lube it, load it, and carry it. Not so sure about current iterations since my 220's have been around a while and have proven their reliability in my hands and in my LEO sons hands.
Third choice, the H&K USP if your hands are big enough. DA/SA with decocker and with the key lock safety removed. I use mine as an "airplane" gun for relatively short personal trips requiring a flight and checking the weapon into hold baggage and when working or playing around water or humid rain forest. Calibre whatever is most easily resupplied in your AO. Easily replaced and reliable. Of course, given H&K's infamous service support, you'd probably best have a back up if you have mechanical problems. Neither of mine has had problems over the last 3 years when I finally took that tentative step to a plastic pistola.
Just another 2 over-inflated cents based largely on personal preferance and past experience.
My Kimber Pro Carry Ultra II, hands down.
You can't go wrong with the M&P 45. You can't beat the price. I have fired 550 failure free rounds through mine thus far. The trigger gets better the more it is shot. It is worth looking at before your decision is made.
WTF over?
I guess I'll change to the Green Guy.....
Glock 45, easy to clean, dissassemble and 13 round mags. Every thing you need.
None of the above - M&P45, HK45 or a 1911.
Those are my three choices also.
Sig 220 with a stamped steel slide.
Line Rider
08-23-08, 09:26
+1 Glock 21 :D
losbronces
08-23-08, 13:18
Sig 220 Carry Elite
GastonG-NoVa
08-23-08, 14:00
Sounds like somebody needs a Glock 30sf. It is nice and compact, holds 10 rounds of .45 goodness, and is less expensive/more reliable than any of the other three.
If you want a full size, I would go with the Glock 21sf.
If you are so anti-Glock, I would choose a .45 M&P.
John_Wayne777
08-23-08, 16:31
Personally I've always kind of liked the steel framed S&W 3rd generation autos in .45 ACP like the 4506. They seem to have generated a pretty good record in LE use.
PRGGodfather
08-23-08, 16:42
1911 Commander length barrel
XD, Very reliable, and accurate, I'd also suggest to the OP, see if you can find a range that rents pistols, and see if they have any on your list to rent, and go try them out. At least this way if for whatever reason you decide you don't like one or more of them, you did'nt have to buy it first...
The 3 .45's I like and trust are:
Glock 30
Glock 21SF
Custom Colt 1911 series 70
I have trusted my life to the Colt for many years - now it's the G30
AwaySooner
08-23-08, 21:45
HK45 is quite big for CCW, Hk45C would be perfect. Reliable, soft recoil, and good siez.
DANGER CLOSE
08-23-08, 22:48
i am going to go with the M&P 45 Dark Earth.
question, what is a 'light weight, magazine fed, gas-operated, air-cooled, shoulder fired weapon'?
I bought an early model of the M&P45.
It has had no problems at all in the 500 hundred rounds it has fired so far.
Was not so sure I liked it over the 1911 at first... but it eventually grew on me to the point where my 1911 stays in the safe.
I doubt I will ever buy another pistol that does not come with interchangeable grip inserts.
Another vote for the M&P45.
The choices you listed (FN, USP, XD) are all outstanding 45's, and I've fired all of them. The FN is a particularly excellent new .45, there was an article in a recent American Rifleman where they did accuracy testing and it had some 5-shot, 25-yard groups around 1 inch!
However, having test fired all these guns alongside an M&P 45, I liked the M&P best for these reasons, and am planning to get one myself:
* Least muzzle flip
* Most accurate at distances of 10, 15, and 25 yards
* Softest recoil
* Easiest to operate controls with LH (M&P is fully ambi, but to be fair, so is the new FN)
Get the M&P!
toddackerman
08-26-08, 13:03
A quality 1911. Everything else is a "Wanna Be".
A quality 1911. Everything else is a "Wanna Be".
For guns that "wanna be" reliable, "wanna be" low maintenance, "wanna be" reasonably priced, "wanna be" running properly right out of the box ... :p
toddackerman
08-26-08, 13:27
For guns that "wanna be" reliable, "wanna be" low maintenance, "wanna be" reasonably priced, "wanna be" running properly right out of the box ... :p
Funny guy! Good thing we have the same name or i'd hunt you down like the "Anti 1911 Guy" you are! :p
BTW...please come and see my reliable, low maintenance but "Very expensive" 1911's.;)
Contrary reports notwithstanding, I'm not anti-1911. Like a lot of folks who've watched literally hundreds of them in classes and dealt with agencies/units issuing hundreds and hundreds more, I simply have a healthy respect for both their benefits and their costs.
As so many people have said before, it's an outstanding gun for the person possessing both the technical knowledge and enthusiasm to make it perform. But because the number of 1911 owners exceeds the number of "knowledgeable and enthusiastic 1911 owners" by many orders of magnitude, there are a lot more people running 1911's than there are 1911's that run.
Contrary reports notwithstanding, I'm not anti-1911. Like a lot of folks who've watched literally hundreds of them in classes and dealt with agencies/units issuing hundreds and hundreds more, I simply have a healthy respect for both their benefits and their costs.
As so many people have said before, it's an outstanding gun for the person possessing both the technical knowledge and enthusiasm to make it perform. But because the number of 1911 owners exceeds the number of "knowledgeable and enthusiastic 1911 owners" by many orders of magnitude, there are a lot more people running 1911's than there are 1911's that run.
Nicely put - Good summary!
toddackerman
08-26-08, 15:25
Contrary reports notwithstanding, I'm not anti-1911. Like a lot of folks who've watched literally hundreds of them in classes and dealt with agencies/units issuing hundreds and hundreds more, I simply have a healthy respect for both their benefits and their costs.
As so many people have said before, it's an outstanding gun for the person possessing both the technical knowledge and enthusiasm to make it perform. But because the number of 1911 owners exceeds the number of "knowledgeable and enthusiastic 1911 owners" by many orders of magnitude, there are a lot more people running 1911's than there are 1911's that run.
And like so many hundreds who have watched them over the last 3 decades, and used them over hundreds of thousands of rounds function flawlessly in classes and competitions, it's not that hard to make them run 100%.
Does it take some knowledge? Maybe, but then there are knowledgeable Gun Smiths who can set them up for a few hundred dollars to run and you won't have to do anything else other than change a recoil/ firing pin spring combo every 3,000 rounds or so. The "Agencies and Units" are probably not as dedicated to this as the "Private Sector" where they (The independent Gun Smiths) are making a living on "Customer Satisfaction". As far as "enthusiasm", if you don't have it...go buy it from a professional who can provide it through a working gun.
When I first started in 1979 using the 1911 as my only platform, I would have a Smith build it, and then all I did was shoot the snot out of it. Some of my 1911's ran to 30,000 rounds without failure. Then (like so many others) I started to play with a rebuild or build new gun and had to learn all the secrets the hard way. This was what I've seen with the guns that are "Finicky"...too many cooks in the kitchen, or those who don't know the recipe which is simple once you learn it. Things like proper extractor profiling, and tension, negative or positive resistance on a slide stop, slide stop lobe modifications etc.
I would be so bold to say that there are 4 things that will make a full size 1911 run (forget about the shorter variants as they are "Satans' children") IF you use Hard Ball ammo:
1. A "Proper" ramp and throat job
2. A relieved ejection port
3. A properly tuned extractor
4. A high power recoil spiring/ firing spring combination.
That's it! I honestly for the life of me can't figure out why so many don't have 100% success with these enhancements. One reason could be the crap that is coming out of the factories these days as far as frames, slides and parts. I have never heard so much about things like ejectors shooting loose, extractor tunnels mis-drilled, barrel lugs improperly cut etc. Truly I tell you that when Colt was the Gold Standard 25 years ago, these were never a consideration.
But that was then and this is now, and maybe what I'm missing is the fact that I'm getting old, and am out of touch.?:(
The first one who makes an "Old Age" crack...get's it!!!:D
No question, one of the great evils that has befallen the 1911 is that so many companies produce them now. And unlike the M4 with the TDP, few people actually want a 1911 built to original M1911 or M1911A1 specifications.
Then again, one of the reasons the 1911 thrives to this day is because there have been so many companies making them, and some of those companies have come up with genuine improvements.
However, I think it's a disservice to say that the teams using the gun aren't as dedicated. The simple fact is that keeping fifty or two-hundred 1911's running with JHP takes a lot more effort than keeping a few personal guns running.
The "little things" you list are certainly little if you've got the knowledge and interest to deal with them. The question -- and there is no single "right" answer that applies to everyone -- is whether all those little things are worth whatever perceived benefit you get from a 1911 over less expensive out-of-the-box solutions.
citizensoldier16
08-26-08, 16:29
1911 my friend....there is no substitute.
A Kimber Pro CDP II graces my belt for CC. It's a small frame, doesn't snag on anything, and it's got 7+1 capacity, plus extra mags are small enough to slip in a pocket.
1. Colt Commander XSE Light weight.
2. Sig 220 Elite Carry
The Colt is a great gun pretty much ready to go out of the box and very easy to use with proper training.
The Sig is also lightweight and will fulfill your needs if you want to stick with the traditional SA/DA type.
Both guns are light enough to carry but fairly comfortable to shoot well.
Now that I have owned a M&P45c (Compact) for over a month now, and put a decent amount of rounds through it, I definately recommend the M&P45c for anyone looking for a reliable, accurate, perfectly sized (IMO) .45acp pistol for concealed carry duty.
The HK45c would be another pistol I would consider, but I dont care for the currently only available trigger: standard single/double action. I would like to try one that allows single action "cocked&locked" carry with a safety only, NO decocker.
The Glock 30SF is a very nice pistol, if it fits your hand. To me the SF version feels nearly identical to the standard G30. Like a brick.
Diehard 1911 guy who is seriously, seriously considering the M&P 45 for a tactical/nightstand .45. I have shot this gun twice at the range now and I continue to be impressed by its accuracy.
I carry a 1911 Springfield myself. I would suggest that or a Sig 220. Sig 220 is a lot lighter than my 1911 so it might work better for you.
Exactly.
For me the M&P .45 mid size or HK 45c are pretty near perfect.
Apparently you were never in the military :rolleyes: if you were you'd be quite used to saying "weapon" instead of "gun" or "firearm".
Colt was the only game in town 25 years ago and they were not good to go out of the box. They had to go directly to a smith to make them work. The 1911 is an experts weapon requiring extensive maintenance and knowledge to shoot them well and safely. I have owned, been issued, and shot them for a long time and I see no reason to deal with the hassle compared to some of the newer pistols like the Hk 45, M&P .45's, Glock 21FS. I'm not interested in how well they shoot with hard ball, that should be a given. I don't want to have to wonder if they will consistently feed JHP's.
Truly I tell you that when Colt was the Gold Standard 25 years ago, these were never a consideration.
Colt LW Commander or CCO.
There are some other options out there that work right out of the box that many have not considered. The S&W line has fallen from favor since it is no longer the sidearm of choice among the majority of LEO departments. Their M&P line is bringing S&W back. Two models they made that were compact, aluminum framed 45 ACPs were the DA/SA model 457 (still being made) & the DAO model 4553 TSW (no longer made, I think). If found these could very well be of good value, if they serve your needs. Just something to consider.
Speaking of Colt's..i saw the new XSE with upswept beavertail in a shop yesterday. If I was in the market for a 1911 that would be a strong contender.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-04-08, 20:10
Oh man, an XSE with a prober beav and no forward cocking serration's would get two orders from me immediately. I may pick up one anyway!
Mk23's are gathering dust in armories at Coronado, Bragg, Little Creek etc. But don't tell that the the people who pay $2k for them because they are the SEAL's "offensive pistol".
Anyhoo, M&P 45 mid-size if cost is an issue, HK45c or full size HK 45 if not. Even though I give Hk the edge it's really hard to say anything bad about M&P's.
After many years and extensive experience I've lost interest in 1911's. I can still appreciate them but have little to no desire to own or shoot them anymore compared to the new crop of polymer pistols.
The FN doesn't do much for me. I tend to like big .45 polymer pistols but the FN just leaves me cold for some reason.
Not a SEAL but used to sell them their pistols. :cool:
The P226 is still standard issue. Some Teams purchased 9mm H&K pistols for "suppressed use" ... don't know how many of them are actually fielded. The majority of the Mk23's were, last I knew, still in crates. Their use is very limited (but not zero, as M4Guru pointed out).
There have been a number of pushes by the Teams (collectively or individually) to switch to something else, but the constant threat of the SOCOM Pistol/JCP program(s) kept the change at bay.
SIG P220 for concealed carry. It's one of my regular working guns.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/5POINT56/TC154.jpg
If a traditional SA auto is your thing..........a 1911 from one of the BIG manufacturers
No safeties to play with.........A Glock SF
SpartanArms
09-24-08, 17:48
If I were choosing a .45 for CCW and were not going to pick a 1911, I would go with either the HK 45c or the Smith and Wesson M&P 45c.:D
I referenced this post over at SIGForum. Hope you don't mind.
For those who don't know already, as background I was the fed/mil guy at SIG for five years (2002-2007). During that time, I carried a P220 on and off, total of probably 18 months or so.
It's hard for me to say that one model or design was the "most" problematic, primarily because I had, for instance, tens of thousands of customers using the P229R-40-DAK and only maybe a thousand using the P220 in any variant. However, I was usually privy to what other major LE agencies were going through, and certainly when major agencies dropped their P220s or SIGs in general.
These are my thoughts, take them for what they're worth:
The P220, as the oldest SIG P22x-series gun, has been through a number of revisions. The frame was beefed up considerably in the 90's. The slide design was completely changed a few years ago. Many of the internal parts have been updated over time, too. (it's worth noting that none of this is particularly unusual in the industry)
No one should be surprised that two essentially identical guns, one in 9mm and one in 45 Auto, would have different lifecycles. The 45 is putting much more stress on the gun. (see, e.g., the recent thread on .40-cal Glocks as compared to their 9mm brethren)
Some P220s now come with the "competition" takedown lever, which is substantially beefed up over the regular one. The "competition" version is identifiable by having a dot inside a circle on the side opposite the paddel; standard ones are flat. I examined a number of P220 variants at a local gun shop the other day and there didn't seem to be any consistency in how the parts are assigned to various models. One exception is the P220 Combat, which have always come with the competition takedown lever. In my experience, the standard version breaks anywhere from 15-25k and renders the gun completely dead. I never put that many rounds through a competition version but based on what the engineering department told me, they survived 30k tests for the Combat.
For the old style slides with the roll pins, it's important to replace the pins at least every 5k rounds. This is true for all SIG P22x-series guns with two-part slides. Otherwise, over time, the breech block will get loose, the slide will lose stiffness, and the steel slide will flex against the aluminum frame. This frequently results in frame cracks. Plenty of people have gone tens of thousands of rounds with their SIGs by replacing these pins.
For the new style one-piece stainless slides (identifiable by the solid firing pin positioning pin instead of the dual roll pins in the slide), the biggest gremlin has been the extractor. There have been problems since day one. I was actually one of the last people to believe there was a problem (mea culpa) because my personal P220ST -- the first model to use this slide and extractor -- went over 18,500 rounds before it suffered its first extraction failure. But many people had problems much earlier. Ernest Langdon used to put extractors in his kitchen oven to heat treat them better, and even then he was replacing them every 3k or so to maintain reliability. SIG lost some major and minor LE contracts over the problem. Various fixes have been tried over the years (better heat treat QC, better dimensional QC, etc) but recently SIG finally switched to an external extractor like the ones found on all other stainless slide P22x-series guns. I haven't even handled one in person but hopefully this will put the extraction issues to bed.
The second P220ST I got (in 2006) had multiple failures to go into battery. After 550 rounds, I sent it back. I instead began using a P220R (which had the same type slide) and had two stoppages in about 4,500 rounds. If not for costs of ammo and mag capacity, I probably would have kept carrying it. It ran very well and was, of course, as accurate as I could ever hope to be with a handgun.
My personal experience with the SAO mechanism was negative; I personally wouldn't use one.
The P220, as many have said, is an almost magically accurate pistol.
The mags have also gone through some changes. The original 7rd mags were fine. Then there was a demand for 8rd, so the first bandaid was to shove eight rounds into the 7rd tube; that was a disaster. Then a slightly extended genuine 8rd magazine was created. It worked fine for standard pressure ammo and some (not all) +p ammo. The real problem was that the top round would move forward under recoil, and the mags would not drop free if the gun had been fired. SIG didn't think this was important enough to change when Ernest Langdon and I raised the issue in early 2003. Once the JCP program (SOCOM .45) picked up speed, some military people commented to SIG that the failure of the mags to drop free might be a problem and so suddenly everyone was running around screaming "Why didn't someone warn us about this sooner!" :rolleyes: SIG then redesigned the 8rd mags with a little dimple below the feed lips to keep the top round in place. This also resolved issues that some departments, such as Henricho Co. VA, were having (Henricho still switched to .40-cal Glocks, though, as the fix didn't happen soon enough).
FWIW, I've found the factory 10rd magazines to be as reliable and durable as the 8rd.
Prior to the HK45 and M&P45, the P220 would have been my first pic in a forty-five. A random box-stock P220 is certainly more reliable than a random box-stock 1911. While it may need more attention and TLC than a P226 in 9mm, it requires less than a 1911.
When I test-fired the first M&P45 prototype in the summer of '06, I immediately sent my boss at SIG an email from my Blackberry that ended with, "We're in big trouble." :cool:
I would have to say that I've probably seen more P220-carrying agencies switch to another brand over the past six years, though, than have switched away from any other SIG model. I don't think that's all because of reliability/durability issues, but certainly that was the case in some instances.
Reading back through this, I realized I forgot to mention the first P220 I ever owned, which was bought years before I got into the firearms industry. I don't have the records in front of me, but that gun (which used the old style slide with the new upgraded frame and hammer) failed at around 2,500 rounds I want to say (give or take maybe 1k). The hammer rebound spring broke and dislodged itself, shutting the gun down. It was a quick fix for an armorer (which I was not, at the time).
Ian -- I certainly don't mind, but you might get banned by association to me. :cool:
Ian -- I certainly don't mind, but you might get banned by association to me. :cool:
My fellow members over there have so far overwhelmingly welcomed your unique insights in that post. I don't know what got you banned over there but I (and many others) certainly miss your input over at that forum.
I'm curious to handle one of the FNP-45's. Feedback from some local shooters who have fired them seems to be that it's rather flimsy and sloppily constructed. That seems odd for FN.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-03-08, 23:13
LOL, it isn't that hard to get banned from ********. I got banned for being too big a fan of the SIG 556. A certain moderator, who I will call "*********" is quite the douche. It is really too bad because folks like ***** made that forum pretty interesting.
edited, we don't need to start a forum war.--gotm4
Guys, let's not turn this into a forum-bashing thread. Thanks.
I would like to try a Glock 30 SF. Small, compact. Then again, the S&W MP 45 with the 4 inch barrel sounds good too.
rightwingmaniac
10-12-08, 19:29
hk usp .45. ahhh yes, german engineering at its finest.
Buy an HK45 and never look back. I have owned every gun on your list and the XD and USP are my favorites on your list but they are not as good as the HK45.
motorcopm4
10-17-08, 06:18
I carry a Springfield LW Champion operator and never had a failure
Im impressed for it being a 1911
I think the ones you listed are all too big. Add a compact HK to the list and I'll vote for that.
Commanche length Baer in a VMII.
Just purchased a Glock 21SF. I have been a long time fan of Glocks ever since my G17 from many moons ago. I have shot many .45's, from 1911, to XD, to HK, and I have to say that Glock is, IMHO, the best, well-rounded, all-purpose sidearm. XD's are some very sweet shootin' pistols, but just feels a little "off". Glocks have a more natural feel for me. But really, that's what it all boils down to. The best handgun is the one that feels the best in YOUR hands, right?
Jack_Stroker
12-15-08, 23:05
I sometimes carry an XD-45 and I usually Carry a 1911 in .45ACP. I prefer the slim profile of the 1911 for carry purposes. I like the cheap cost of replacement, the durability and the capacity of the Springfield XD to be alluring though.
So what I mean is if I am out and about and I get rained on then I'd rather get rain on the Springfield XD. Not only due to the fact that Springfield will warranty them under almost any circumstances but because of the gun's inherent durability. I know the XD can handle the the abuse. The 1911 may not do so well in the same situation. Plus if a police officer stops me, then disarms me for the duration of the traffic stop, how he treats the XD is largley irrelevant. However if he droped the slide on an empty chamber and tossed my Springfield TRP onto his dash board carelessly, I'd be upset.
The 1911 on the other hand I prefer because of the feel, the accuracy and my familiarity with the platform. I can operate a 1911 half a sleep or under duress. I am not so sure when it comes to the XD. Both are great guns with their own merrits. As it stands right now during the summer months when I need the slim profile of the 1911 I carry it. Right now during the winter I'm trying to carry the XD more often.
I like the H&K's but the thing that stops me from buying one is the magazine release. I can't stand the way it works and I hate the location of it on the .45ACP guns like the USP Tactical and the regular USP. (I haven't handled the compact USP, but I have tried the P2000SK.) For one handed firing and mag changes I found the magazine release to be poorly placed. With two handed firing its fine but they are all pretty much fine for that. I also tried the USP in a .40S&W and found it fit my hands a little better. I do want to try the H&K USP Compact and see how that feels.
Regardless it seems that no matter what I try I always come back to the 1911.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
I love my GLOCK! GLOCKS are so cool, everyone has a GLOCK! Because GLOCKS are so cool! GLOCKS are so cool because GLOCKS are so cool! And everyone has a GLOCK! Why? Because GLOCKS are so cool and everyone has a GLOCK.
The XD 45 Compact is the best of both worlds. You can use the 10 round mag for concealment and use the 13 rounder with the adapter as your spare and for the bedside. I like my 1911's, but the XD45C is my favorite pistol by far.
I've got a new favorite: S&W M&P45c.
Just right for me. Not too big (about 5x7), not too small (4 inch bbl), 8 shots is plenty, and I like the manual safety.
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