View Full Version : 922r compliance....who really cares?
I have been thinking about this a lot lately since I am about to start my Saiga 7.62x39 conversion. I realize that it is pretty hard to mess up the compliance since doing a conversion will get you there pretty quick , but my question is who really is going to care if your rifle is compliant or not. I am a deputy sheriff in a rural area in Texas. When I converted my S12 I asked a lot of people about the 922r compliance. To be honest I received a lot of deer in the headlight looks. Would you or do you really care if you are compliant or not. Honestly I don't think I would live in fear if my rifle weren't 100% compliant. Although it will be. Thoughts?
Where this is a public forum that I'm sure our ATF brothers monitor, I doubt anyone is going to openly admit they violate the law.
My 2 cents:
The government power to regulate comes from the interstate commerce clause of the constitution... it could be argued that you are not engaged in interstate commerce, and does not apply.
Similarly, there is no federal law against making your own explosives (as an individual) for personal use. You may not make them for hire, transport them, store them, or sell them (or otherwise engage in 'commerce'). I think they WISH there was was, but there isn't, I think due to the lack of 'reach' (or restriction from) the interstate commerce clause. However, a lot of rulings on related subjects (growing marijuana for personal use), say that if you breathed air that blew across a state line while you were growing your weed, there is interstate nexus, and they can regulate it.
Similarly, if you carve a stock out of Honduran Mahogany, is it US Made? How about if you take an imported military surplus stock that cost $5 bucks, and spend $20 in supplies and 10 man hours fixing the dings and refinishing it? I think trade law would say yes (look at where the parts for your 'American' made car come from), but ATF doesn't really say.
Last time I asked ATF firearms enforcement guys a question about US made parts, they looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead and said.. 'Uh... we just send it to tech branch, and wait for a ruling'. I guess that's easier than knowing the rules.
I think this is one of those things where you have to do your homework, and find your own happy place.
My 2 cents:
Similarly, there is no federal law against making your own explosives (as an individual) for personal use. You may not make them for hire, transport them, store them, or sell them (or otherwise engage in 'commerce'). I think they WISH there was was, but there isn't, I think due to the lack of 'reach' (or restriction from) the interstate commerce clause. However, a lot of rulings on related subjects (growing marijuana for personal use), say that if you breathed air that blew across a state line while you were growing your weed, there is interstate nexus, and they can regulate it.
Not true, by making your own explosives, you didn't buy explosives over state lines, thus (negatively) affecting interstate commerce. And according to Wickard v Filburn, that means your action is able to be regulated by the federal government. That's what the Weed cases used, not "breathing air from across state lines" with the addition that the Fed Gov can regulate illegal as well as legal interstate commerce.
At least that's how the laws are currently interpreted. Hopefully it'll be reigned back a bit soon.
For my peace of mind and to comply with the laws of the land, I made my Benelli M2 922r compliant when I increased the magazine capacity.
95%+ of people and LEOs have no idea what you are talking about.
4% of people argue that you didn't do it right, while not being able to cite the law.
1% seem to understand and comply, begrudgingly.
Add in the fact that US parts aren't required to be stamped with a "Made in the US" indicator, and 922r is a goat **** of all proportions.
I comply. It's not that hard to do and it avoids needless trouble in the extremely rare event that it's ever an issue.
I've spoken to a grand total of maybe two people EVER that even knew what it meant or had ever heard of it. Nonetheless, I still comply with it.
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Rhino hit it right on the head. 95% of all people don't even know what the hell you're talking about anyway. I know we are all upstanding pillars of our communities here on M4C and would never violate the law on purpose. I live in a very rural area in TX And when the Feds are in town all they care about are illegal aliens or busting big time dopers. I'm really just asking what are the odds they are going to care if anyone's rifle is compliant or not?
but my question is who really is going to care if your rifle is compliant or not.
No one will ever care except booger eaters on gun forums. It's impossible to prove or confirm...
More of a bureacratic bunch of shit for importers. End users.. no one gives a crap.
I have never seen or heard of anyone being charged BECAUSE of 922r non-compliance, but if the Feds have a beef with you for other reasons involving a firearm, and they discover that firearm is not compliant, you can bet they'd tack that charge onto the list.
No one will ever care except booger eaters on gun forums.
Bingo. Now, think about this: Those booger eaters that call out the guys posting pics of their AK's and HK's etc, are the same booger eaters screaming from the rooftops that they would NOT comply with any magazine ban/confiscation.
It's funny how the internet commandos pick and choose the ridiculous firearms laws they wish to uphold...
The most important thing to remember with 922r is that it's a manufacturing problem, not a possession problem. If your buddy assembled it, and gave it to you, not your problem.
Do what you think is best and drive on.
It's funny how the internet commandos pick and choose the ridiculous firearms laws they wish to uphold...
It's painful. Reminds me of back during the 94 ban... There were MOLON LABE images with the shooter holding an AWB compliant gun. :rolleyes:
Doc Safari
07-25-13, 09:59
The most important thing to remember with 922r is that it's a manufacturing problem, not a possession problem. If your buddy assembled it, and gave it to you, not your problem.
I have been told this by more than one person over the years as well.
Of course, any legitimate manufacturer or builder is going to comply because they are licensed to be in that business.
As for an individual, it comes down to "just one more thing" they can charge you with if they bust you for something else.
I have never been in a position to not be in compliance, so I don't worry about it.
BATFE will never outwardly push a prosecution case for mere possession of a firearm that isn't 922r compliant. They WILL however persecute you with the threat of federal prison if you don't hand over everyone you know who ever violated a federal firearms law on a platter. If you don't play ball, they will make your life a living hell. This is SOP for BATFE and they've been doing it for decades, just ask Randy Weaver.
If you have a non-922r compliant configured firearm, all you need to do to get jammed up is show it off at the range, loan it to a goober, let any woman who may ever get pissed off at you know it isn't compliant, sell it, etc., etc. Essentially, they become a link in the six degrees of separation between you and BATFE.
All in all, 922r compliance isn't that expensive to have the freedom from fear that a housecall from BATFE may come out of left field when you least expect it. JMO, YMMV
I don't give 1 good God damn about 922r, but some agency might:D. Its mute point for me all my AK's have all been up graded/modified/tweeked/accessorized/etc that 922r is non issue..
BATFE will never outwardly push a prosecution case for mere possession of a firearm that isn't 922r compliant. They WILL however persecute you with the threat of federal prison if you don't hand over everyone you know who ever violated a federal firearms law on a platter. If you don't play ball, they will make your life a living hell. This is SOP for BATFE and they've been doing it for decades, just ask Randy Weaver.
If you have a non-922r compliant configured firearm, all you need to do to get jammed up is show it off at the range, loan it to a goober, let any woman who may ever get pissed off at you know it isn't compliant, sell it, etc., etc. Essentially, they become a link in the six degrees of separation between you and BATFE.
All in all, 922r compliance isn't that expensive to have the freedom from fear that a housecall from BATFE may come out of left field when you least expect it. JMO, YMMV
The act of making the gun is where the law comes in, not possession. Seems to me that prosecution would have to prove that you assembled it yourself.
(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.
But yes, one needs to CYA from all angles on this epic cluster-**** of a law.
The act of making the gun is where the law comes in, not possession. Seems to me that prosecution would have to prove that you assembled it yourself.
But yes, one needs to CYA from all angles on this epic cluster-**** of a law.
If you have it and say you didn't "make" it, you'll have to give up the person you got it from. If you can't, better hope you have something they want!
If you have it and say you didn't "make" it, you'll have to give up the person you got it from. If you can't, better hope you have something they want!Has anybody that "made" a SBR out of a pistol, ever been asked to prove 922r compliance?
My guess is that 922r served the interests of two groups. Since commerce-related laws don't really get passed at the Federal level without the input of industry, I think there's a likelihood that American firearms manufacturers quietly helped this one along. It means less foreign competition for certain firearms, a void that would require foreign firms to jump through expensive hoops to compete on the same level as domestic producers. Second, it's one of those types of laws that when the Feds want to string you up, it's a nice fallback charge to make sure you go to jail when the rest of their case falls apart, when they're threatening a suspect with a mandatory sentence and want "cooperation" against other suspects, or when they want to inflate a smaller charge into a bigger legal situation for an individual whose life they seek to make more difficult. Just my guess.
My guess is that 922r served the interests of two groups. Since commerce-related laws don't really get passed at the Federal level without the input of industry, I think there's a likelihood that American firearms manufacturers quietly helped this one along. It means less foreign competition for certain firearms, a void that would require foreign firms to jump through expensive hoops to compete on the same level as domestic producers. Second, it's one of those types of laws that when the Feds want to string you up, it's a nice fallback charge to make sure you go to jail when the rest of their case falls apart, when they're threatening a suspect with a mandatory sentence and want "cooperation" against other suspects, or when they want to inflate a smaller charge into a bigger legal situation for an individual whose life they seek to make more difficult. Just my guess.
Ding, ding!
Not true, by making your own explosives, you didn't buy explosives over state lines, thus (negatively) affecting interstate commerce.
But your aluminum powder and ammonium nitrate probably did cross some state lines. Hence my facetious/sarcastic/snarky comment about where your air came from... because the 'nexus' is about as tenuous.
In at least one case, the feds said that making your own machine gun at home, for personal use 'affected interstate commerce' by changing market forces (and therefore the price of illegal guns)... guns in question were Stens, with tubes being made at home.
Surely making explosives at home would effect the 'market' for explosives, applying the same logic.
I can't imagine enforcement of these (US parts count) laws would be an easy thing. My point with the above is that sometimes with the government, 1+1=2, and sometimes it doesn't... depending on where your air comes from.
I have never seen or heard of anyone being charged BECAUSE of 922r non-compliance, but if the Feds have a beef with you for other reasons involving a firearm, and they discover that firearm is not compliant, you can bet they'd tack that charge onto the list.
I follow this line of thought. That being said I take the time to make sure my guns are compliant. It gives me peace of mind to take them to the range and use them.
It is fun to explain how stupid this law is to non-shooters. Makes no sense to the average Joe.
MountainRaven
07-25-13, 21:56
I follow this line of thought. That being said I take the time to make sure my guns are compliant. It gives me peace of mind to take them to the range and use them.
It is fun to explain how stupid this law is to non-shooters. Makes no sense to the average Joe.
The only people it makes sense to are anti-gun politicians and domestic arms manufacturers like Colt.
I follow this line of thought. That being said I take the time to make sure my guns are compliant. It gives me peace of mind to take them to the range and use them.
It is fun to explain how stupid this law is to non-shooters. Makes no sense to the average Joe.
So you buy a used Kalashnikov and you can tell by pawing it that all the parts inside and mounted equal a 922(r) compliance weapon considering most parts don't have a roll mark of any kind no matter where the origin?
I try to refrain from purchasing these used guns. Almost have to be a psychic fortune teller to know the truth... Or maybe bring one with you as an informant. Haha!!
So you buy a used Kalashnikov and you can tell by pawing it that all the parts inside and mounted equal a 922(r) compliance weapon considering most parts don't have a roll mark of any kind no matter where the origin?
I try to refrain from purchasing these used guns. Almost have to be a psychic fortune teller to know the truth... Or maybe bring one with you as an informant. Haha!!
US parts are generally marked pretty well.
I realized just how silly 922r is when I converted a saiga 7.62x39. It's been a few years ago so I hope I'm remembering correctly.
Due to my parts count I had to have a surefire 30 round mag (or any US made mag) in the rifle to be legal. If I inserted the oem 10 round russian mag into the gun I was immediately a criminal. So I sold the 10 rounder to someone.
I don't think anyone pays much attention to 922r, but if local up to federal law enforcement has a hard on for you it's something else they can charge you with once they charge in and start digging through your gun safe. Same as if your ar breaks on the range and starts doubling or tripling.
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