View Full Version : APEX M&P FSS and Trigger - Polymer vs Alum?
I am looking to buy one of these kits for an M&P9 I will be purchasing as soon as my paperwork comes back from the state (Stupid NJ Laws... been waiting since Jan 31!)
Anyway, I love everything about the M&P except the trigger, I feel this will be a worthwhile upgrade as this will be my go to pistol, replacing my Beretta 90-Two. It will be used for HD, training classes and range practice... and when the zombies come. I will not carry it because a. in NJ and I can't and b. if I am in a state that accepts my Florida CCW its too big to conceal on my person.
My question is that they appear to offer the kit with a polymer trigger and one with an aluminum trigger. Is the only difference materials? Am I over thinking it? Should I just get the DCEAK? Is the FSS and trigger kit the same as DCAEK just adding a better trigger?
Im really confused.
Thanks for the help all!
karmapolice
07-26-13, 15:28
the forward set trigger kit is a lighter trigger more for competition not recommended for carry/duty.
The DCEAK is a duty enhancement kit but doesn't come with the aluminum trigger but offer s a good but slightly heavier pull than the FSS or Competition Kit.
You can just get the aluminum or polymer AEK trigger by itself which will get rid of pretravel and some post travel I believe.
I have felt the FSS and it's nice but I prefer the combination of the Duty DCEAK and the AEK aluminum trigger which is what I run in my M&P's.
I have the DCAEK and RAM in my M&P9 and M&P9c with the stock triggers and I have no complaints.
And FWIW, I CCW my full size M&P9 pretty much daily. For reference I'm 5' 10" and about 185 lbs.
thanks good info, thanks guys! I watched all their YouTube clips and could not figure out the diff. This is great! Thanks!
I have the DCAEK and RAM in my M&P9 and M&P9c with the stock triggers and I have no complaints.
And FWIW, I CCW my full size M&P9 pretty much daily. For reference I'm 5' 10" and about 185 lbs.
Yeah.... I am 5'-9" and 135lbs lol Plus, I am in NJ... we wear tight cloths lol. I have a really hard time hiding a G19 in an IWB appendix holster... :cray:
I only have the DCAEK in my M&Ps, so I can't speak too much on the FSS. But I do have an aluminum Glockworx trigger in my G19. It's basically the FSS for the Glock.
As far as the material - I wouldn't get hung up on it. I don't mind the aluminum trigger, and its better than the serrated G19 trigger, but I think a polymer trigger is just as nice. Considering both are "Glock style" instead of hinged like the traditional M&P trigger - I think either would be an improvement. I'd probably spend the $35 elsewhere.
If you're having a hard time concealing an M&P9, even in Appendix, have you considered having the grip chopped to M&P9c size? You could still run full size mags as reloads, and it sounds like it would solve your concealed carry woes.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/27/ny5y3e7a.jpg
Here's a picture of the trigger I'm referring to. If I had to find a perk to it being aluminum, it seems like it feels less mushy and has less flex than a polymer trigger. But it could be apples to oranges since the Polymer FSS looks really well built.
Having shot the FSS on several occasions, it's worth the money if you don't like any pretravel in your trigger. Very 1911-like. I kind of like pre-travel since it lets me prep the trigger, but I go back and forth.
ETA: You could always paint the trigger safety, like the above Glockworx trigger. It looks boss, picks up the ladies, and improves accuracy 700% in all pistols 30% of the time, every time.
Awesome avatar by the way.
Hi all,
The difference between the two versions of trigger really boils down to personal preference. Some people prefer the flat face of the Aluminum trigger while others like a more rounded contour that is present in our polymer trigger. They both function identically.
There were a couple of reasons for making the polymer trigger. The first is reduced cost. With the Aluminum, we have to machine the part and then send it off to get hard anodized. The polymer triggers do not have to go through such steps. Function and durability wise, either should last the lifetime of the pistol.
Another reason for developing the polymer trigger is that I personally do not like the design of the factory trigger. We have seen several instances where the trigger safety pivot pin(and in some cases the pin that connects the trigger bar to the trigger) walk out of the trigger body.The cause is often due to the trigger bar stopping the rearward travel (instead of the over travel limiting tabs located on the lower half of the trigger and the inside lower rear portion of the trigger guard).
To me, the factory trigger body is a drop safety only. If you look at the design, anything that contacts the lower half of the trigger can deactivate the safety feature. The centrally located safety in our design is less prone to being deactivated by objects that might contact the sides of the trigger body.
Going back to the personal preference part, many us that "Kick it old school" with revolvers like the rounded face of our poly trigger. My friends who grew up shooting mostly 1911s tend to prefer the Aluminum trigger.
-Randy
Thanks Randy!
While you're "on the horn" - quick question if i may. If one wanted to use the polymer or aluminum FSS trigger in a DCAEK kit, is this possible? Allowing the longer pretravel characteristics of the DCAEK with the improved non-hinged FSS trigger.
Long time user. Love your products.
karmapolice
07-26-13, 18:13
I love my flat style one, then again I started on 1911's and love my Geissele SD-C flat faced trigger.
https://sphotos-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/972191_498963173513328_941068463_n.jpg
I love my flat style one, then again I started on 1911's and love my Geissele SD-C flat faced trigger.
https://sphotos-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/972191_498963173513328_941068463_n.jpg
I like the golf ball stippling pattern.
I can't help but wonder if its coincidence that the FSS trigger face is so similar to a USGI AR15 trigger, particularly on the radius.
There's something to be said of having the pistol trigger closely resemble the long gun trigger - particularly if you carry both together. I've noticed that shooters tend to get worse with their pistols after shooting ARs for awhile during a shooting session / class. It can be tough going from a USGI trigger to an OEM Glock / M&P trigger because of the different characteristics. Training can obviously overcome this - before anyone points that out.
Thanks Randy!
While you're "on the horn" - quick question if i may. If one wanted to use the polymer or aluminum FSS trigger in a DCAEK kit, is this possible? Allowing the longer pretravel characteristics of the DCAEK with the improved non-hinged FSS trigger.
Long time user. Love your products.
Luckily, we make and sell an AEK trigger (both poly and Aluminum) that will work with the factory sear, Performance Center sear as well as our standard sears.
Here is the link to the polymer AEK trigger... https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid71.html
Luckily, we make and sell an AEK trigger (both poly and Aluminum) that will work with the factory sear, Performance Center sear as well as our standard sears.
Here is the link to the polymer AEK trigger... https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid71.html
Now when did you say you were going to come out with the aluminum Glock replacement trigger......:moil:
TXPO
Now when did you say you were going to come out with the aluminum Glock replacement trigger......:moil:
TXPO
Hmmm, coming to a SHOT Show near you? ;)
I love my flat style one, then again I started on 1911's and love my Geissele SD-C flat faced trigger.
https://sphotos-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/972191_498963173513328_941068463_n.jpg
Is this the AEK trigger that Randy Lee linked to above? It's funny you mention the SD-C trigger as I have the same trigger in my AR and love the feel of it as well. I might have to give this trigger a try, but it specifies at Randy's link that you should upgrade the sear housing block to the newer style before installing it. I guess I should get around to doing that one day.
ETA: Question for Randy: I have RAM's installed in both of my M&P's and they both have the older style sear housing block. The Apex page for the RAM specifies it may not work in the newer style sear housing block. Would I need to remove the RAM's if I make the sear housing block upgrade?
Is this the AEK trigger that Randy Lee linked to above? It's funny you mention the SD-C trigger as I have the same trigger in my AR and love the feel of it as well. I might have to give this trigger a try, but it specifies at Randy's link that you should upgrade the sear housing block to the newer style before installing it. I guess I should get around to doing that one day.
ETA: Question for Randy: I have RAM's installed in both of my M&P's and they both have the older style sear housing block. The Apex page for the RAM specifies it may not work in the newer style sear housing block. Would I need to remove the RAM's if I make the sear housing block upgrade?
Smith is still making and selling the sear housings that accept our RAM. In fact, all the CORE model M&Ps use the same sear housings which also have the larger sear spring and plunger set up. So you should be able to update your sear housing and keep your RAMs.
-Randy
PatrioticDisorder
07-26-13, 22:14
Smith is still making and selling the sear housings that accept our RAM. In fact, all the CORE model M&Ps use the same sear housings which also have the larger sear spring and plunger set up. So you should be able to update your sear housing and keep your RAMs.
-Randy
Randy, perhaps I'm a bit on the slow side, so I apologize for that up front, but are you saying that the RAMs will work with the new style sear that some M&Ps are apparently shippping with, or are you simply stating that Smith is still selling M&Ps with the older sears that are definitely compatible with the RAM?
I'm asking because I'll likely be purchasing a CORE in the very near future and I just want to make sure I know exactly what I'm buying and what I'll be able to do to the gun.
Randy, perhaps I'm a bit on the slow side, so I apologize for that up front, but are you saying that the RAMs will work with the new style sear that some M&Ps are apparently shippping with, or are you simply stating that Smith is still selling M&Ps with the older sears that are definitely compatible with the RAM?
I'm asking because I'll likely be purchasing a CORE in the very near future and I just want to make sure I know exactly what I'm buying and what I'll be able to do to the gun.
If you mean the sear housing, Smith is still selling guns with the frames that have a small aluminum black plug on the left side (the frame/sear housing block that allows the use of our RAM).
The new version sear is the same as the Pro (Performance Center) sear- I assume that this is the new sear that you are referring to.
It is the sear housing block that will dictate whether our current RAM will work in your gun or not. If you look at our website regarding the RAM, we have a photo of how you can tell whether your gun will accept the RAM. I am working on a new variant that will work with all the frame types, but I am still a ways off.
Smith, much to their credit is shipping new guns with a revised trigger bar and slide catch that greatly improves the reset. So you might be lucky enough to get one of the new set-ups , which will negate the need for our RAM.
I hope I am answering your question...
-Randy
Hi all,
The difference between the two versions of trigger really boils down to personal preference. Some people prefer the flat face of the Aluminum trigger while others like a more rounded contour that is present in our polymer trigger. They both function identically.
There were a couple of reasons for making the polymer trigger. The first is reduced cost. With the Aluminum, we have to machine the part and then send it off to get hard anodized. The polymer triggers do not have to go through such steps. Function and durability wise, either should last the lifetime of the pistol.
Another reason for developing the polymer trigger is that I personally do not like the design of the factory trigger. We have seen several instances where the trigger safety pivot pin(and in some cases the pin that connects the trigger bar to the trigger) walk out of the trigger body.The cause is often due to the trigger bar stopping the rearward travel (instead of the over travel limiting tabs located on the lower half of the trigger and the inside lower rear portion of the trigger guard).
To me, the factory trigger body is a drop safety only. If you look at the design, anything that contacts the lower half of the trigger can deactivate the safety feature. The centrally located safety in our design is less prone to being deactivated by objects that might contact the sides of the trigger body.
Going back to the personal preference part, many us that "Kick it old school" with revolvers like the rounded face of our poly trigger. My friends who grew up shooting mostly 1911s tend to prefer the Aluminum trigger.
-Randy
Randy-Thanks for the details in your reply. I'd asked around a few times, but never had anything push me towards the polymer or the aluminum version. I started off on 1911's, so I'll order the Aluminum version for my M&P9.
For what it's worth, I was in a class once where a student's shirt caught the trigger while the pistol was being reholstered. The M&P discharged, but luckily the holster was worn in a way that wasn't flagging her leg or foot, or anyone else. The student only ended up with a powder burn, but I've wondered since then if your trigger may have helped prevent that.
PatrioticDisorder
07-27-13, 07:16
If you mean the sear housing, Smith is still selling guns with the frames that have a small aluminum black plug on the left side (the frame/sear housing block that allows the use of our RAM).
The new version sear is the same as the Pro (Performance Center) sear- I assume that this is the new sear that you are referring to.
It is the sear housing block that will dictate whether our current RAM will work in your gun or not. If you look at our website regarding the RAM, we have a photo of how you can tell whether your gun will accept the RAM. I am working on a new variant that will work with all the frame types, but I am still a ways off.
Smith, much to their credit is shipping new guns with a revised trigger bar and slide catch that greatly improves the reset. So you might be lucky enough to get one of the new set-ups , which will negate the need for our RAM.
I hope I am answering your question...
-Randy
Thank you very much Randy, that was actually a very educational post and more than answered my question.
Smith is still making and selling the sear housings that accept our RAM. In fact, all the CORE model M&Ps use the same sear housings which also have the larger sear spring and plunger set up. So you should be able to update your sear housing and keep your RAMs.
-Randy
This is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you for getting back with me on this.
BoringGuy45
07-27-13, 09:47
Randy,
I've got a circa 2008 M&P 45. I'm planning on getting the polymer FSS trigger for it (going to use the green spring as it's my carry piece). I was told the sear spring size is smaller in the older M&Ps. Do the new trigger kits include the size spring I would need?
Also, is the RAM for the .45 coming out soon?
Now I am even more confused lol.
I am confused between getting the DCAEK and AEK trigger vs getting the FSS + trigger kit.
The new FSS kits come with a 5# spring which would put the trigger pull at roughly the same as the DCAEK.
Is the reduced travel of the FSS setup less safe than the DCAEK if the gun is to be used for training and personal defense as opposed to competition?
All these choices are great, but they make decision making all the more difficult.
Thanks for all the awesome info guys!
Now I am even more confused lol.
I am confused between getting the DCAEK and AEK trigger vs getting the FSS + trigger kit.
The new FSS kits come with a 5# spring which would put the trigger pull at roughly the same as the DCAEK.
Is the reduced travel of the FSS setup less safe than the DCAEK if the gun is to be used for training and personal defense as opposed to competition?
All these choices are great, but they make decision making all the more difficult.
Thanks for all the awesome info guys!
It depends how you shoot. Do you press out / prep the trigger at all? Or do you prefer putting the finger on the trigger after completing the draw, while at full extension, sights on target?
I prefer prepping the trigger through the draw, once the "threat" is identified, pistol is oriented towards it, but not at full extension and not obtained a full sight picture. For me, it's faster than a trigger with no pretravel. It's the reason some high level shooters pay big bucks to have pretravel built in to their 1911s.
The lack of pretravel in OTS 1911s is the reason I'm ditching mine. I was switching between weapons one range session and going against the timer, when I decided to throw on a newly purchased 1911. Without thinking, I subconsciously did a press out, and let a round off before reaching full extension. So I'm sticking with DAO style striker pistols.
The above method takes some practice, so most shooters prefer a trigger with no pretravel. It's the reason the 1911 trigger gets so much praise, but is also believed to "spoil" new shooters in a negative way.
For my purposes - the DCAEK or AEK with the FSS polymer trigger sounds ideal. I love the DCAEK (with or without RAM - irrelevant IMO), but ditching the hinged M&P trigger would be great. I'm pretty happy to hear APEX is selling just the trigger out of the FSS kit.
Hope this helps some.
It depends how you shoot. Do you press out / prep the trigger at all? Or do you prefer putting the finger on the trigger after completing the draw, while at full extension, sights on target?
I prefer prepping the trigger through the draw, once the "threat" is identified, pistol is oriented towards it, but not at full extension and not obtained a full sight picture. For me, it's faster than a trigger with no pretravel. It's the reason some high level shooters pay big bucks to have pretravel built in to their 1911s.
The lack of pretravel in OTS 1911s is the reason I'm ditching mine. I was switching between weapons one range session and going against the timer, when I decided to throw on a newly purchased 1911. Without thinking, I subconsciously did a press out, and let a round off before reaching full extension.
I mean no disrespect, and realize that this is a bit off topic, but the technique you are describing seems to fly in the face of traditional firearms safety doctrine. This must be a competition-only technique? And if so, don't you worry that the competition training will over-write defensive gun-handling habits?
ETA:
I am also really looking forward to getting some apex parts in my M&Ps. I am leaning toward the polymer aek and the duty carry kit.
I mean no disrespect, and realize that this is a bit off topic, but the technique you are describing seems to fly in the face of traditional firearms safety doctrine. This must be a competition-only technique? And if so, don't you worry that the competition training will over-write defensive gun-handling habits?
ETA:
I am also really looking forward to getting some apex parts in my M&Ps. I am leaning toward the polymer aek and the duty carry kit.
I was a bit afraid to say something because I am still a noob in comparison to a lot of people here, but that did seem to be going against what I was taught.
I keep my finger away from the trigger until my sights are up and I have acquired the target.
I was a bit afraid to say something because I am still a noob in comparison to a lot of people here, but that did seem to be going against what I was taught.
I keep my finger away from the trigger until my sights are up and I have acquired the target.
Good call. I would (and do) stick with that personally. I fail to see what could be gained (other than a increased potential for negligent discharges) by using the alternate method that was mentioned.
I mean no disrespect, and realize that this is a bit off topic, but the technique you are describing seems to fly in the face of traditional firearms safety doctrine. This must be a competition-only technique? And if so, don't you worry that the competition training will over-write defensive gun-handling habits?
What's unsafe? Weapon is down range, sights are on target, no firearm rules are broken.
Firing from retention means firing with no sight picture, one hand, etc. - but it's a safe technique (if taught properly).
I don't consider the press out a competition technique - but if it is - I see no tactical disadvantage. The whole mixing of competition and tactical gets a bit silly.
Good call. I would (and do) stick with that personally. I fail to see what could be gained (other than a increased potential for negligent discharges) by using the alternate method that was mentioned.
The gain is speed and accuracy with almost any trigger type. I'm like Ricky Bobby... I wanna go fast.
Here's some light reading on it. I've noticed some big name trainers teach this in the advanced classes. F2S does a better job describing it.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3899
So to come back to the M&P trigger, I'd say it would depend how far you want to take your training, and short term gains vs long term gains.
What's unsafe? Weapon is down range, sights are on target, no firearm rules are broken.
oh, it sounded as though you were "pre-loading" the trigger while you were raising the firearm to the target, not once you were on target. If you are on target, then that's different. Downrange and on target are not synonymous.
Firing from retention means firing with no sight picture, one hand, etc. - but it's a safe technique (if taught properly).
I don't consider the press out a competition technique - but if it is - I see no tactical disadvantage. The whole mixing of competition and tactical gets a bit silly.
I agree. If it wouldn't be a sound practice in the real world, it's probably a bad idea to practice it. I would think the negligent discharge you mentioned would be a deterrent, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. Fast is good and all, but maybe not by any means necessary?
The gain is speed and accuracy with almost any trigger type. I'm like Ricky Bobby... I wanna go fast.
My responses are in bold.
OK, I watched the Todd G videos you linked to, and I was misunderstanding the technique, and the position of the pistol during execution. I apologize. The way it is shown in the video seems like a good way to maximize efficiency of movement.
OK, I watched the Todd G videos you linked to, and I was misunderstanding the technique, and the position of the pistol during execution. I apologize. The way it is shown in the video seems like a good way to maximize efficiency of movement.
No need to apologize, sir. Welcome to a whole new way of running a pistol. It works great when you get the hang of it. I noticed in a class recently that Travis Haley is teaching a version of the Press Out in his advanced pistol classes. The students I witnessed loved the concept.
To anyone reading, I don't consider what happened to me with the 1911 a Negligent Discharge. Sights were on target, trigger could be pulled. The shot just broke a fraction of a second early and before I'd reached full extension. This is in itself a drill some practice, but in this instance it was the trigger characteristics of a OTS 1911 without me making the mental switch.
The drill is to fire while presenting the pistol to full extension. I had a talk with someone recently who said the ultimate goal for his team is for each trigger puller to be able to get off 2-3 rounds before reaching full extension. This is incredibly difficult in my experience, and definitely an advanced technique - if for nothing else the safety aspect. But he and his time were professional shooters, and not in the competition sense.
Sorry for the thread drift, but it is somewhat relevant as it can affect trigger choice.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.