U.S. Military "sexual assault awareness" [Archive]

Eurodriver

07-29-13, 20:52

So I did a 4 year stint in the Marine Corps. I was stationed on a Marine Corps base and spent time with Marines in Marine locations. I never spent any time at other branch bases really.

I just got reactivated from the IRR and I'm at an Army reserve base (but still in the USMC) and I swear to God every single wall in every single building has Military Sexual Assault Prevention or awareness or whatever posters and orders and letters from CGs and everything.

I thought it was an Army thing until I saw the Marine side and they've got the same damn thing. Letters from the commandant and everything. Our entire ****ing reader board is full of SAPR and UVA and Sexual harrasment/assault/etc shit.

The only problem is that EVERY SINGLE TIME* I've ever heard of a sexual assault it was MADE UP by the female. Every one. Without fail.

*the ONLY exception was one guy who had an investigation filed on him after he had already been kicked out for drug use. He was a legit creeper dirt bag.

What's the deal??

BrigandTwoFour

07-29-13, 21:41

USAF is no different. Every year it seems I'm required to go to yet another "briefing" to be told how evil I am for being male.

The whole sexual assault thing is real, and I've seen several legitimate cases. But I also don't trust the statistics used in the argument, I've seen first hand how those get rigged to appear far worse than they actually are.

The whole sexual assault thing is one of those topics that is guaranteed to get a lot of public press, and the DoD doesn't need any more negative press. IMO, it's going to have some pretty serious backlash though. I don't know when, or in what form, but the witch hunt is going to cause problems.

Army Chief

07-29-13, 22:21

Young men and women.
Often promiscuous.
Barracks living.
Alcohol.

What on earth do they expect to happen? I do not accept that we have anywhere near the problem that our leaders are being compelled to claim, and I have yet to be in a unit where such a thing would be even tacitly-tolerated if it were known. That is in a span of 29 years ... and counting.

The military's issues here are no different than those existing on any college campus in the land on this very night. What is different is that our servicemen and women have taken an oath, and are held to a higher standard. As they should be. I accept that particular burden, but that said, I am nevertheless strongly-persuaded that most of this is the result of pure fabrication, cowardice and the usual follies and fears of young love -- not a systemic problem in our ranks.

Guess that puts me out of step with the party line, but just in case anyone forgot, we've still got troops in combat and under fire. This is not the time to be giving yet another politically-driven sexual/social issue such prime billing and extraordinary effort.

</rant>

AC

Grand58742

07-29-13, 23:00

USAF is no different. Every year it seems I'm required to go to yet another "briefing" to be told how evil I am for being male.

Actually, I'm up to four this year alone...

Army Chief

07-29-13, 23:06

Actually, I'm up to four this year alone...

Well, good grief man -- get the message already so the rest of us can put this idiocy behind us! :D :D

AC

Grand58742

07-29-13, 23:15

Well, good grief man -- get the message already so the rest of us can put this idiocy behind us! :D :D

AC

Can't help it when I've got 'em crawling all over me. It's why I went into the .mil, to escape my Chippendale Dancer past. But I just can't get away from all the women throwing themselves at me, random friend requests on Facebook, shoving dollar bills into my ABU pants while I'm on patrol, "oh Grand, I don't want a committment, I just want a fling!" I just wanted to be appreciated for me just once and not treated like a Grade A choice of prime rib.

:D:D:D:D:D

Actually, I tend to think the whole "alcohol and ruffie" thing is overrated and completely untrue. I get drunk and ruffie myself all the time. Still hasn't gotten me laid.

Army Chief

07-29-13, 23:27

Can't help it when I've got 'em crawling all over me. It's why I went into the .mil, to escape my Chippendale Dancer past. But I just can't get away from all the women throwing themselves at me, random friend requests on Facebook, shoving dollar bills into my ABU pants while I'm on patrol, "oh Grand, I don't want a committment, I just want a fling!" I just wanted to be appreciated for me just once and not treated like a Grade A choice of prime rib.

:D:D:D:D:D

Actually, I tend to think the whole "alcohol and ruffie" thing is overrated and completely untrue. I get drunk and ruffie myself all the time. Still hasn't gotten me laid.

I got absolutely nothing for this.

Point goes to Grand. ;)

AC

TehLlama

07-29-13, 23:35

The military's issues here are no different than those existing on any college campus in the land on this very night. What is different is that our servicemen and women have taken an oath, and are held to a higher standard. As they should be. I accept that particular burden, but that said, I am nevertheless strongly-persuaded that most of this is the result of pure fabrication, cowardice and the usual follies and fears of young love -- not a systemic problem in our ranks.

AC

And you'd be exactly correct. The expectation of conduct is higher, and that's reasonable, but acting like it's some epidemic or failure of leadership that anything questionable goes down ever is just being an idiot, unfortunately our policymakers usually fit that description.

And yes, all 5 cases I witnessed were pretty clear cases of chicks being angry about how a relationship went, some of them were egregious in the extreme about how obvious the guy was only at fault for being a complete moron.

Javelin

07-30-13, 00:19

It is actually a pretty common thing and quite frankly is disgusting. And the VA has been turning down these poor Soldiers left and right turning their back on them. This would never happen in any workforce federal, DoD, or civilian without some type of fallout but because it is .mil no one seems to give a rats ass about those poor individuals that were sexually assaulted.

Bottom line is no matter what occupation one chooses in life they should never be sexually assaulted and that goes for the military as well.

Moose-Knuckle

07-30-13, 00:56

What's the deal??

There have been a lot of headlines lately . . .

Spurholder

07-30-13, 09:48

GotAmmo

07-30-13, 10:06

Got a case right now just spun up last night.

Deployed married female is sleeping with 2 maybe 3 deployed married males

1 married male receives verbal counseling from LPO to break contact

married female catches wind and in an effort to save herself... accuses LPO of sexual harassment.

could be truth, could be lies... all I know is said female replaced another female who we had to send back to her parent command to deal with ANOTHER sexual harassment case she was involved in

If this is happening in the small SOF community I'm deployed with... one can only imagine what happens when the flood gates are open for the rest of the MOS's

chuckman

07-30-13, 10:49

I 'get' why they do it, and I agree that while it regrettably happens, it is being made into a bigger problem than it actually is. The writing on the wall for me, so to speak, was when we had a "safety stand-down" to have a mandatory briefing on human traficking. I had to look it up before I went to the briefing...I had no clue. We have that problem, too? Are we a bunch of people-stealing, woman-raping, knuckle-dragging druggies that are one coping mechanism from shooting a school?

J8127

07-30-13, 12:17

Are we a bunch of people-stealing, woman-raping, knuckle-dragging druggies that are one coping mechanism from shooting a school?

Ask a civilian who has no military members in their immediate family and they will non-verbally say yes to this question while trying to save face out loud.

TehLlama

07-30-13, 12:18

Bottom line is no matter what occupation one chooses in life they should never be sexually assaulted and that goes for the military as well.

TBH, my biggest worry is the spectre of all the false allegations being something that makes actual victims shy away from reporting actual assaults - functionally the worst outcome possible, but it's usually because of proper shitbags who decide they don't want to face consequences of their decisions giving anybody who reports that a bad name within a unit.

Apricotshot

07-30-13, 12:25

Best solution is to remove the offended party. Was there rampant sexual assualt in the services in say 1948?

MistWolf

07-30-13, 12:50

There is a lot of favoritism and CYA in the military.

I knew one Airman who was accused of being homosexual. I didn't pry into his private life, but I knew he had an ex-wife and two kids he paid child support for. The Air Force seized his collection of GQ magazines, harassed him and finally discharged him from the service for being gay. He was a good airman, was always neat, disciplined, did his job and professional. But he wasn't in with the right crowds.

Another Airman would bring local girls in from downtown (we were overseas), get them so drunk they'd pass out and "pull a train on them". I was rather naive about such things and didn't hang out with those kind of guys. I'd been hearing rumors and thought they were just that- rumors. Until one night someone came knocking on my door to tell me to come upstairs, the "Holmes Express" was running. Everybody in the 'racks knew about it but no one did anything. Looking back, I suppose I should have said something to someone, but I didn't really understand it at the time and I as I don't drink and stayed away from those activities, I was a misfit myself

TAZ

07-30-13, 14:37

Best solution is to remove the offended party. Was there rampant sexual assualt in the services in say 1948?

Yes and no. True sexual harassment and assault should not be treated lightly. People who exhibit that kind of behavior don't need to be representing me and my country anywhere on this planet. Those capable of sexual assault on their own unit mates are a special kind of ****ed in the head and given the chance will go off on someone else. Removing women from service and keeping a rapist deuche will still eventually lead to a black eye for the service and country. The deuche will get drunk and rape someone elses daughter/mother/wife resulting in the same mess, only difference being the victim wont have been wearing a uniform. IMO removing the victim doesn't do anything but delay or redirect that messed up mentality. Individuals who are that far gone need to be in jail like all other sexual predators. Again, I am talking about true sexual harassment and aggression not the he stared at my ass while I was wearing a bikini and am offended crap.

IMO using common sense in how we define harassment and assault would go a lot further than anything else. None of this third party harassment loonacy (you know the I walked by and saw x and y horsing around and I'm offended). No more he said I looked nice today and I'm offended by that junk. All the PC junk needs to go.

I feel the end result of this will be a gutting of the branches. As the PC BS piles up only those nambi pambi compliant metrosexuals will be left and the rest will just say screw it.

Javelin

07-30-13, 14:54

Yeah good point above. There is a difference between harassment and sexual assault. While I am not going to comment on the harassment portion the VA has turned a blind eye on sexual assault victims that served their country and now suffer from mental trauma from the event(s).

I know it is easy for us infantry guys to poke fun at this the truth is we are all or have all worked at a federal level and none of this behavior would fly in any other federal, state, or local job and the fact leadership has been covering it up (proven by Congress investigation) and the VA has refused to treat those affected (again proven by congressional investigation) I can say it is absurd that tis behavior be condoned as it has ruined lives.

Eurodriver

07-30-13, 16:27

Yes and no. True sexual harassment and assault should not be treated lightly. People who exhibit that kind of behavior don't need to be representing me and my country anywhere on this planet. Those capable of sexual assault on their own unit mates are a special kind of ****ed in the head and given the chance will go off on someone else. Removing women from service and keeping a rapist deuche will still eventually lead to a black eye for the service and country. The deuche will get drunk and rape someone elses daughter/mother/wife resulting in the same mess, only difference being the victim wont have been wearing a uniform. IMO removing the victim doesn't do anything but delay or redirect that messed up mentality. Individuals who are that far gone need to be in jail like all other sexual predators. Again, I am talking about true sexual harassment and aggression not the he stared at my ass while I was wearing a bikini and am offended crap.

IMO using common sense in how we define harassment and assault would go a lot further than anything else. None of this third party harassment loonacy (you know the I walked by and saw x and y horsing around and I'm offended). No more he said I looked nice today and I'm offended by that junk. All the PC junk needs to go.

I feel the end result of this will be a gutting of the branches. As the PC BS piles up only those nambi pambi compliant metrosexuals will be left and the rest will just say screw it.

I don't think you'll find many (if any) logical people in the military that are okay with people giving unwanted ass pats, pinches, or "You look so fine I want to **** you"'s during the work day.

In fact, many people would agree that even if those were wanted it would still be inappropriate.

The issue comes with the end of your post. There is way too much of the "I wanted to date him, but he wasn't interested so I'm crying rape" shit in the military. There is a SSgt at this current unit who the 1st Sgt had to get all the Sgts and above in a room and literally say "Stay the **** away from her. Do not party with her. Do not go anywhere with her" because she has opened sexual harassment claims on dozens of men. How in the **** are you sexually assaulted/harassed by dozens of men?

At our last ball, they opened an investigation on a squared away GySgt because she said he was trying to get her to drink and kept smacking her ass while she was dancing and followed her home and stalked her all night.

...except after investigating they found footage of the ball - he was no where near her. Not even once. And during the supposed time he was stalking her he has e-pass toll proof that he was driving his vehicle across the state and surveillance footage of him at a gas station several hours away during the time he "followed her home and stalked her"

He's now got that on his record. She doesn't. What the **** is wrong with this picture?

Getting back to actual sexual assault - yes. Of course. If you're getting harassed or assaulted or raped - those mother****ers should burn. But if you're not - and you say you are, you should burn.

aflin

07-30-13, 16:27

This thread made me think of our European counterparts

Doesn't seem like the europeans have a worry about sexual harassment
insights on the french military (http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/working-with-the-french-army?reply=lastReply#lastReply)

^an incredible read^^

ABNAK

07-30-13, 17:58

Sexual harassment will be the new "out" for chicks who want to go Infantry but don't want to hump the 240 and no one will do it for her. Or told she's failing to meet standards (God knows what those standards will be but you get the point).

"Why, they uh.....sexually harassed me. Yeah, that's what happened."

Javelin

07-30-13, 18:15

Awh yes. She will just say they sexually harrassed her.. Because this problem is plauging every professional job field in the US. How in the **** corporate America makes it with these women in the workplace that have legal rights and the ability to say anything they want to is absolutely ****ing amazing... let's not forget that both men & women get sexually assaulted/raped/etc in the military too.

It is a serious problem that has been ignored for too long. It is good that something is being done to help these people.

Army Chief

07-30-13, 18:22

It is a serious problem that has been ignored for too long. It is good that something is being done to help these people.

I am not second-guessing you in the slightest, and I hope you can respect that; even so, I'm left to wonder where you have served, or in what types of units, to have come away with the impression that there is indeed significant substance to this issue.

Does it exist? Certainly. On anything approaching the scale of what we are currently being led to believe? I'm sorry, but I cannot sign on for that. I would be the first to rise in defense of a legitimate victim, but the few situations I have any familiar with were of far more dubious credibility, and a very high percentage of what we prosecute and punish in the military wouldn't even make it into a civilian courtroom.

Again, I mean you no disrespect. I just find an unusual degree of conviction in your words, and I am at a loss as to what might be fueling it.

AC

HackerF15E

07-30-13, 18:39

It is a serious problem that has been ignored for too long. It is good that something is being done to help these people.

Like Army Chief, I'm curious where you're coming from with this comment.

I'm an 18-year USAF officer, and I can honestly say that I have never once observed -- nor heard of -- a sexual assault occurring in any of the units that I have been in.

Obviously it exists, but the question to the significance to which it exists (ergo, how much of a "serious problem" is it actually, and compared to what standard?) still remains to be seen. My experience/personal observations in no way matches the firestorm that is being portrayed by both Congress and our own leadership.

The current climate in the DoD is being driven by Congressmen who are very interested in the issue and grilling all of the services' senior leadership. The shit is simply rolling down hill...and is a reaction to that intense scrutiny from senior leadership.

There is evidence that the "crisis" isn't quite the crisis that both Congress and DoD senior leadership are making it out to be (reference USMC Capt Lindsay Rodman's op-ed in the WSJ, The Pentagon's Bad Math on Sexual Assault (19 May 2013).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323582904578484941173658754.html

In addition, it is also necessary to compare sexual assault rates in American non-military society to see if there is anything abnormal about the rates within the military. Right now, the comparison doesn't show that there is a disproportionate "crisis" in the DoD -- only a reflection of the society that military members are drawn from.

Javelin

07-30-13, 18:45

I am not second-guessing you in the slightest, and I hope you can respect that; even so, I'm left to wonder where you have served, or in what types of units, to have come away with the impression that there is indeed significant substance to this issue.

Does it exist? Certainly. On anything approaching the scale of what we are currently being led to believe? I'm sorry, but I cannot sign on for that. I would be the first to rise in defense of ai legitimate victim, but the few situations I have any familiar with were of far more dubious credibility, and a very high percentage of what we prosecute and punish in the military wouldn't even make it into a civilian courtroom.

Again, I mean you no disrespect. I just find an unusual degree of conviction in your words, and I am at a loss as to what might be fueling it.

AC

Fine. I will play. This is supposed to be a pretty anonymous board but I served with 4ID. I was commissioned 11A after college and served a couple tours in Samarra and later FOB Warhorse way back when we first invaded beginning in 2003.

As far as what is fueling my disdain for the process is that I personally know someone that even has the SIR & MP sexual assault documentation from their tour and their claim with the VA has been pending since 2004. The government hasn't/doesn't care about sexual assault cases and allowed this to occur for too long.

Army Chief

07-30-13, 18:55

Fine. I will play. This is supposed to be a pretty anonymous board but I served with 4ID. I was commissioned 11A after college and served a couple tours in Samarra and later FOB Warhorse way back when we first invaded beginning in 2003.

As far as what is fueling my disdain for the process is that I personally know someone that even has the SIR & MP sexual assault documentation from their tour and their claim with the VA has been pending since 2004. The government hasn't/doesn't care about sexual assault cases and allowed this to occur for too long.

Got it, and I do appreciate the insight.

Clearly, there was something there, and I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't being overly-dismissive. My apologies if you took this as a challenge; I'm just admittedly weary of the heavy-handed way this has been dumped on the heads of those of us still serving. For what it may be worth, I was a 2003-2004 OIF guy, too. Probably flew right over you more than once.

As for the VA angle and the associated complications there, I wish that I knew how to navigate those waters myself. The entire system seems to be an endless source of frustration for all, regardless of condition, time or severity. I'm likely getting ready to experience it first-hand with three decades of service, retirement looming every closer on the horizon and some very serious and uncertain cancer prospects.

Again, thanks for your response, and for your service as well.

AC

HackerF15E

07-30-13, 18:56

their claim with the VA has been pending since 2004. The government hasn't/doesn't care about sexual assault cases and allowed this to occur for too long.

So, this is really about the inefficiencies of the VA, and your frustration with one friend's experience with the VA, rather than anything about the actual climate amongst active duty line personnel in any branch of the military?

I agree that is a shitty situation -- nobody deserves that kind of treatment, much less someone who is the victim of an egregious attack like that. That (the VA) needs to be fixed, without a doubt. Your friend deserves the care they are clearly not getting.

But I don't think that's an indicator of the DoD-wide situation currently.

Javelin

07-30-13, 18:58

Like Army Chief, I'm curious where you're coming from with this comment.

I'm an 18-year USAF officer, and I can honestly say that I have never once observed -- nor heard of -- a sexual assault occurring in any of the units that I have been in.

Obviously it exists, but the question to the significance to which it exists (ergo, how much of a "serious problem" is it actually, and compared to what standard?) still remains to be seen. My experience/personal observations in no way matches the firestorm that is being portrayed by both Congress and our own leadership.

The current climate in the DoD is being driven by Congressmen who are very interested in the issue and grilling all of the services' senior leadership. The shit is simply rolling down hill...and is a reaction to that intense scrutiny from senior leadership.

There is evidence that the "crisis" isn't quite the crisis that both Congress and DoD senior leadership are making it out to be (reference USMC Capt Lindsay Rodman's op-ed in the WSJ, The Pentagon's Bad Math on Sexual Assault (19 May 2013).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323582904578484941173658754.html

In addition, it is also necessary to compare sexual assault rates in American non-military society to see if there is anything abnormal about the rates within the military. Right now, the comparison doesn't show that there is a disproportionate "crisis" in the DoD -- only a reflection of the society that military members are drawn from.

I am actually kind of put off by you folks on this issue and quite honestly it pisses me off to see the level of ignorance some of you are displaying. And questioning my military service isn't something you probably want to do as you will embarrass yourselves.

To make the argument that rape or assault happens a % of the population is once again absurd. Bottom line is Rape or assault at any place of employment is a ridiculous notion and that is where these occurs. We serve/served and hold ourselves to a higher standard. Those that cannot meet the standard need to find employment elsewhere and the leadership that covers this activity up in the name of upholding the honor of the military need to be fired and the VA withholding treatment for these individuals to keep their sexual assault cases mute should no longer
//:
Edit I need to leave this conversation I'm too damn angry and no longer civil.

Eurodriver

07-30-13, 18:58

The government hasn't/doesn't care about sexual assault cases and allowed this to occur for too long.

I can only echo AC's comments, but this statement got me.

The VA not processing benefits applications (or even just not giving a shit) for sexual assault victims is an entirely separate issue from mandatory monthly sexual assault prevention classes for entire units during deployment workups.

HackerF15E

07-30-13, 19:02

And questioning my military service isn't something you probably want to do as you will embarrass yourselves.

Where has anyone done that? I was asking for some clarity about your experience so I could gauge where you're forming your opinions from, as your experiences have obviously significantly diverged from mine.

There's no dick-measuring going on here.

HackerF15E

07-30-13, 19:03

To make the argument that rape or assault happens a % of the population is once again absurd. Bottom line is Rape or assault at any place of employment is a ridiculous notion and that is where these occurs. We serve/served and hold ourselves to a higher standard. Those that cannot meet the standard need to find employment elsewhere and the leadership that covers this activity up in the name of upholding the honor of the military need to be fired and the VA withholding treatment for these individuals to keep their sexual assault cases mute should no longer be tolerated.

So **** any of you that think otherwise.

Is there anyone that disputes this? I certainly don't -- none of anything I've posted at all contradicts what you are saying.

I'm talking about if there is some sort of massive "crisis" as is being stated by elected leadership and military leadership, and that is most certainly relevant to rates of crime in society at large.

Army Chief

07-30-13, 19:09

ABNAK

07-30-13, 20:06

Javelin,

I never suggested sexual assault be ignored; if it is proven then it is a form of rape or actually rape itself and should be dealt with in a court-martial environment, which is a federal felony conviction. Crucify them.

Sexual harassment is an entirely different subject, and VERY subjective. The VA supposedly not addressing sexual assault is egregious. However, I'd be skeptical of PTSD-like claims for harassment. HUGE difference.

As to my claim about women in combat arms positions, I will stand by my assertion that if anything, you will see sexual harassment accusations skyrocket.......valid or not.

skydivr

07-30-13, 20:17

Sexual assault is one thing - I don't think it should be tolerated either. However, I also think we are cooking a recipe for it when we put young men and women, at the height of their physical and sexual lives, in close quarters under a lot of stress. This is just one other reason I'm against full integration.

Sexual harassment is another, as it is in normally it is the 'harassed' who can claim, not claim, or later claim it after the fact if they somehow either feel 'wronged' or want to see someone's career and name ruined, either of real or feigned 'wrongs' done to them. VERY subjective.

I served 26 years (I was an Armor officer so I was in a predominately male area). I never saw any sexual harassment, yet, I saw plenty of 'welcomed attention' by female soldiers who could have later claimed harassment and gotten away with it. I also saw some harassment claims that came from substandard soldiers who used that, and racism claims, when their backs were against the wall and they had no other outs - these were their 'last chance nuclear option' when it got to chaptering them out for being duds. I also saw some female officers use it to try and get a leg up on jobs that better qualified male officers were applying to.

One of my co-workers was a 1SG in the 101st in a Trans Company in Somalia. He lost 35% of his unit strength and had to be cross leveled, because between getting the deployment notice and actual deployment, most of the women in his unit became pregnant - and not via assault, either...

Not saying it doesn't happen. And it sickens me that it does. But we are spending entirely TOO MUCH LIMITED TIME on the subject, instead of PT, rifle marksmanship, etc. Everybody knows the rules, just DON'T DO IT and don't PUT YOURSELF IN THE POSITION TO GET IT CLAIMED ON YOU.

skydivr

07-30-13, 20:26

Oh, I almost forgot, I had a female soldier (unit administrator) accuse me once of harassment...

I had forwarded an 'off-color' joke (while not sexually explicit, it certainly had some sexual content, but not nearly what I've been sent before or since via DoD email) to another soldier, who she later got cc'd. She was already ticked at me because I'd crossed her (I outranked her but she didn't like it) so she filed a complaint. Thought she'd get me in trouble...

In my response, I showed:

1) I didn't send it to her, someone else did..
2) About a dozen emails she'd sent to other soldiers, including me, of off color jokes of which some were MUCH worse.
3) Video of her demonstrating how to give a blowjob to a banana to some other soldiers (one of who videoed it).

I never heard another word about it, when faced with my response she immediately dropped the charges. It was a total crock of shit. That was the 90's. Today, I'd have been crucified regardless of my response/proof. Because now it's all in the "OFFENDED"...

Eurodriver

07-30-13, 20:35

I never heard another word about it, when faced with my response she immediately dropped the charges. It was a total crock of shit. That was the 90's. Today, I'd have been crucified regardless of my response/proof. Because now it's all in the "OFFENDED"...

They had email in the 90s? In the military?

Don Robison

07-30-13, 20:46

They had email in the 90s? In the military?

I think I got my first .mil email account in 95 or 96.

On the thread topic. My experience mirrors AC's. It exists, but I saw far more unsubstantiated(cries of wolf) cases than anything.

Grand58742

07-30-13, 20:52

skydivr

07-30-13, 20:56

I think I got my first .mil email account in 95 or 96.

Sure did late 90's; I actually got to CHOOSE my AKO username (I don't go by my first name). I still have it (retirees get to keep it another year before they are going to can AKO mail completely)....It was an entire new method of communication and everybody was still sorting out what was 'acceptable' and what was 'unacceptable'...while my joke was 'off color' it really was more suggestive than crude...and I was a young, single, Major, Armor Officer who leaned fairly forward in the saddle (i.e., not fully 'gentlemanized' just yet)...and had ZERO interest in the much older female soldier who claimed harassment.

TAZ

07-30-13, 22:25

Someone asked how corporate America can make ends meet with all the women in their ranks and such. The answer is simple: we behave in a professional manner just like 99% the military folks do. The instances of true sexual assault and harassment are few and far between and there are few political points to be made airing any laundry; real or imagined. On the mil side there are political points to be made the everybody gets Zimmermaned first and tried later.

As stated by most, true cases of assault need to be treated harshly and decisively. Harassment cases need to be treated on a case by case basis and as harshly as needed to make them stop. Can't have cookie cutter diversity crap going about. Just doesn't work.

False accusations also need to treated harshly and decisively. In corporate America, I would sue the ever living shit out of my accuser for slander, defamation of character and anything I could think of. If my employer acted on a false accusation and them didnt correct things after being shown the error of their ways; I'd sue them into oblivion as well. In the military filing false claims is against the UMCJ. It's been a while but I remember something in there about lying, perjury... that sort of behavior. The chain of command should act on those to nit only protect the service men/women being accused, but also the process. Thousands of fake claims diminish the real ones. Boy cry wolf syndrome. Allowing dumbasses to behave like dumbasses will lead to people not taking real cases seriously. NOT a good situation IMO.

TehLlama

07-30-13, 22:52

I can only echo AC's comments, but this statement got me.

The VA not processing benefits applications (or even just not giving a shit) for sexual assault victims is an entirely separate issue from mandatory monthly sexual assault prevention classes for entire units during deployment workups.

That's not it - it's a case where it does happen, and even on case where it get absolutely mishandled by any party - VA, Command, IG, or the like, it's beyond unacceptable, and worse yet is liable to get swept under the rug if it doesn't fit somebody's PC message that 'we're making improvements on sexual assault related cases in the military'.

That said, focusing all the attention and effort on more hours spent playing angry birds while a SAPR powerpoint drones on isn't effort in the right direction, as TAZ said it needs to be on making that process decisive, and make legitimate accusations translate into those jackasses get burned out of the military and facing maximum reasonable punishment - and any case where the accusations are false leading to exactly the same harsh treatment for effectively diminishing the process for actual victims.

Sensei

07-30-13, 23:06

A quick word of clarification on this matter of questioning military service, as that was not where I was headed, either. I've just been in combat formations for most of my career, so I didn't know if perhaps this was more prevalent in finance, supply or admin outfits, etc., where the gender mix is a bit more pronounced and/or there may be more junior soldiers in the ranks. I did eventually do some G-1 time, but at a more senior level, so it didn't really provide much new perspective.

Not questioning ... trying to learn.

AC

There is a huge difference between the combat arms vs combat service support. This differences is magnified between the active duty and reserve componenents. I began my career as an 11B out of high school and never once got a whiff of sexual impropriety during my first 2 years. I suppose that Drum was too cold and depressing for sex during 75% of the year.

Fast forward 15 years and I return to the reserve medical corps and the shenanigans began during the first week of OBC at Ft. Sam. Most of what I saw was adultery and fraternization, but there was more than one incident where students engaged in sexual escapades while drunk (rape).

Then, there is the issue of drill seargents and other instructors banging their students. This phenomenon is well known at non-combat arms training depots such as Ft. Sam, Jackson, Leonard Wood, etc. This is by definition assault due to the power that instructors have over their students during Basic and AIT.

Finally, my first deployment to the sandbox in 2007 with a reserve CSH looked more like a visit to the Bunny Ranch with constant turnover in senior leadership due to an inability to keep dicks out of privates. That includes one CSM who got drunk in theater and had a little harem of enlisted drunk poontang.

HackerF15E

07-31-13, 08:17

That's not it - it's a case where it does happen, and even on case where it get absolutely mishandled by any party - VA, Command, IG, or the like, it's beyond unacceptable, and worse yet is liable to get swept under the rug if it doesn't fit somebody's PC message that 'we're making improvements on sexual assault related cases in the military'.

That's certainly not how it is occurring in the USAF.

Commanders in the USAF know that since this is such a hot-button issue (and has been for several years), that they dare not sweep anything under the rug. In fact, they're more likely to make mountains-out-of-molehills in an effort to show leadership, "hey look! Look how I'm handling this!"

Again, in my little slice of the DoD, I've never seen/heard of a legitimate sexual assault occurring in the units I've been in, much less seeing one occurring and being ignored by leadership in the name of making their command look good.

I have, on the other hand, seen more than one under-performer cry wolf in a desperate attempt to divert attention from their own shortcomings. I've also seen more than one accused (male and female) have to spend considerable time, money, and effort on their own and unaided by command clearing their names after false accusations.

Army Chief

07-31-13, 08:31

Although my experience parallels Strike Eagle's, it isn't especially hard for me to envision a MASH-type scenario in a deployed medical outfit; especially in a Reserve formation. I don't say this as an affront, but I remember all-too-well the first time I ever went to the range with an Army Guard unit as a young Private, watching my squad mates down the line smoke dope while they posted targets (down range) under the berm. Granted, a different era, but it is difficult to impose the same mindset on folks who didn't really intend to sign-on for full-time soldiering. Throwing a uniform on a bunch of boys and girls doesn't necessarily prevent them from wanting to take them off of each other as often as they possibly can, especially when far from home.

Even so, and without malice toward those who might disagree, I honestly feel that the overwhelming majority of these cases are rooted in grievances of a personal nature (jilted, jealous, fearful, embarrassed, vengeful), rather than cases of forcible sexual intent. Had we had a true stealth rapist in any unit I've been associated with, my sense is that getting arrested would have been the best possible outcome for the guy, as he would very likely be getting his 4th point-of-contact kicked with extreme prejudice by the other guys in the outfit.

The nature of our business is to look out for each other; not to make victims of one another. That's what the bad guys are for. Things can and do happen, but for the most part, I still think that we get it right far more often than we get it wrong.

AC

HackerF15E

07-31-13, 08:52

I honestly feel that the overwhelming majority of these cases are rooted in grievances of a personal nature (jilted, jealous, fearful, embarrassed, vengeful), rather than cases of forcible sexual intent.

While I agree that such circumstances exist, I'm not sure that they comprise the "overwhelming majority" of cases in my neck of the woods.

Obviously actual assaults are happening, and as previously stated, those are completely unacceptable on any level. The objective would be to have zero instances of this, but the problem is when the waters are muddied by expanding the pool of behavior that constitutes "sexual assault".

At the recently-mandated stand-down day on my base, the SARC put a slide up in front of the assembled airmen which said;

Offensive words = sexual harassment
Sexual harassment = sexual assault
Sexual assault = UCMJ violation = A CRIME!

So, now we have made anything that is "offensive" (which is an inherently subjective line) directly into sexual assault.

In addition, the statement was made that "all accusers' stories will be assumed correct by default."

So, by the logic presented, I simply have to say something that is deemed "offensive" by someone, and they simply have to make the accusation that they're offended, and that automatically puts me on the hook for a "crime". Anyone see any potential pitfalls there? Talk about disruption of good order and discipline...

The two biggest problems here are:
- Since "everything" is an assault now, and with the power put in the hands of the accusers, we now have opened ourselves up to exactly what Army Chief is talking about, and
- This completely de-values the legitimate complaints about actual assault that take place which must be rectified and punished if found true.

Again, nobody is saying sexual assault is not legitimately an issue that deserves to be dealt with harshly - it absolutely does. But not any more than any other crime that we see in the DoD.

Army Chief

07-31-13, 09:24

Exactly. By "these cases," I'm referring to the fact that aren't always comparing apples-to-apples vis-a-vis the civilian population on this issue. What seems to regularly constitute career-threatening sexual misconduct in the military might merely result in an uncomfortable closed door chat with your boss in a civil setting.

If Jane is upset that Bob got drunk with Karen last night when she thought that the two of them were still very much an item, that doesn't get translated into demotions or firings at work. It is personal business. A distraction. Something to be worked-out elsewhere.

If A1C Jones is upset that SRA Woods got drunk with A1C Dean last night, well, under our system, she has an unusually-effective means of striking back at him simply by making a spurious complaint. Some take advantage.

That's not an all-encompassing example, of course, but my point is that "personal business" often isn't defined in quite the same way when you are talking about a military setting. The military can tell you when to drink and when not to drink, where to go and where not to go, who you can and cannot socialize with, etc. They can, and do, tell you where, when and with whom you can dock your morale gear. That tends to blur distinctions between the personal and professional, and creates situations where things that aren't military business become military business for all of the wrong reasons. I understand that, given the profession that we are in, but I think we have to apply a certain pragmatism to all of this, as well.

Sexual assault happens. There is no place for it. I'm simply suggesting that our definition for it, especially these days, leads to a lot of rather dubious over-classification, and the hyper-sensitive environment that results from this has led folks watching the nightly news to conclude that barracks rape parties are commonplace occurrences across the posts, bases and camps of the land. There are stupid kids out there doing stupid things (most often with stupid bottles in their hands), but I'm inclined to be very cautious about any use of the word "assault." If it is truly assault, then let us crush the offender, and safeguard the victim in every possible way. If it is something else entirely, then let's not play this silly game and feed a statistical database with our unwillingness to call a spade a spade.

AC

Army Chief

07-31-13, 09:51

Don't want to derail this thread, but in the interest of fairness, I think we've created a similar environment with the EO program, though thankfully, there seem to be more common-sense parameters associated with how those cases are handled these days.

I once watched one of the most professional senior NCOs I've ever met get absolutely dragged through the cesspool over an EO complaint by a couple of his female soldiers who "didn't feel like working outside." An interesting conundrum, considering that they were refuellers (POL specialists in Army parlance). What's worse, all involved were African-American -- to include the top-shelf Platoon Sergeant they went after.

Obviously, we all carry a bit of baggage into discussions like these based upon where we've been and what we've seen, but whenever anything that smacks of the culture of victimhood comes up, I get extremely agitated; especially when it happens in military trim. All we've done with this mindset is to make it even more difficult to find, and render assistance to, those who truly are being victimized in whatever way. And that is sad.

AC

skydivr

07-31-13, 10:02

So True. Commanders can get 'desensitzed' by all the fake and spurious complaints that they can't deal effectively with the ligitimate ones, and spend all their energy on briefings and policy letters...

HackerF15E

07-31-13, 10:35

whenever anything that smacks of the culture of victimhood comes up, I get extremely agitated; especially when it happens in military trim. All we've done with this mindset is to make it even more difficult to find, and render assistance to, those who truly are being victimized in whatever way. And that is sad.

Shack (that means 'direct hit' in USAF parlance).

It isn't just that it is "sad"; IMHO it is the more correct threat to military readiness and effectiveness than the problem the current environment is attempting to take care of.

jklaughrey

07-31-13, 11:21

Ill put in my little escapade into the seedy underbelly of being accussed of bullshit sexual harassment. Not that I spent much time stateside, but when I did it was in good ole Camp Pendleton. Anyways while on base stopped by hospital pharmacy to pick up scripts. Observed a female who clearly had put on a few pounds since boot who had squeezed herself into her working whites... Think Lauren Holly in "DOWN PERISCOPE". http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/01/ude6ave6.jpg

Anyways I made a very discrete suggestion she perhaps go get new uniforms issued and fitted appropriately. Mind you I was a senior NCO to her very junior E-2 rank. I got called into see the old man and was informed of my rights pending investigation into sexual harassment.

I was eventually found "not guilty" but it's still in my permanent record. So after that I steered clear of any and all female personnel.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Eurodriver

07-31-13, 18:11

Ill put in my little escapade into the seedy underbelly of being accussed of bullshit sexual harassment. Not that I spent much time stateside, but when I did it was in good ole Camp Pendleton. Anyways while on base stopped by hospital pharmacy to pick up scripts. Observed a female who clearly had put on a few pounds since boot who had squeezed herself into her working whites... Think Lauren Holly in "UP PERISCOPE". Anyways I made a very discrete suggestion she perhaps go get new uniforms issued and fitted appropriately. Mind you I was a senior NCO to her very junior E-2 rank. I got called into see the old man and was informed of my rights pending investigation into sexual harassment.

I was eventually found "not guilty" but it's still in my permanent record. So after that I steered clear of any and all female personnel.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

This is absolutely infuriating.

I tell male Marines all the time to get bigger or smaller cammies.

Eurodriver

08-12-13, 19:37

I just want to resurrect this for a bit:

I've never worked with females in the military unless I went to base admin for pay or award issues. Even then, it was brief, professional, and rare.

Here I actually have quite a bit of interaction. One female in particular I respect and highly value her opinion and insight.

Today I asked her to explain the sexual assault issue - it was eye opening. For me, its hard to picture a male blatantly assaulting or harassing a female counterpart. I consider myself a flirty guy, and I can't deny that I will probably venture into the "orange" zone at some point (You look nice today) but if I get the "Please don't talk to me like that" speech or vibe, I will immediately cease and remain professional when speaking to that female forever. I just assumed all guys were like this and that females were the ones overreacting. I was wrong.

This female told me that ever since she enlisted she has been harassed, physically assaulted, accosted, etc by males. Her first interaction was when her recruiter said he had car trouble and needed her to take him to work. She went to his house, he told her to come inside and he had slow music playing, was wearing a bath robe and told her she was the most beautiful girl he'd ever seen and he couldn't stand to watch her throw her future away by joining the military. She reported him to another recruiter who fortunately was married to a female Sergeant and it went to the E9 in his chain of command and that recruiter was toast.

But at your duty station its not so easy. She, like most young PFCs, decided to get hammered drunk at a barracks party, blacked out and awoke with her pants down in her barracks room. She had been there 3 weeks and had no idea who did it. Several females told her they saw her being carried downstairs by another guy but it was her word vs a senior NCO who had been with the unit for years.

She said she has never (until this unit..who's senior leadership is all combat arms and never worked with females) gone to a unit where the staff were not sending her obscene messages (or flat out dick pics via phone) at work. One time her Master Sergeant took her and another guy to the airport to drop the guy off. On the way back it was the Master Sgt and her and he told her that he sees the young bucks she's been with and "they ain't even much know how to use they dick right". One female who was raped in the barracks was confined to her room, caution tape was placed over the dumpsters and her barracks door and window to prevent unauthorized entry and she was publicly ridiculed for "making up" a story about a "good guy".

She said senior enlisted is the worst. Lower ranked guys will usually keep it confined to an inappropriate ass slap or a grope of her breasts but senior enlisted will flat out demand sexual pics, "what would you do to me" stories, etc. There is no recourse for her, especially when she was an E3 or E4. Even today, she said it happens so frequently that if she started outing every male that harassed her she would be blamed as one of those chronic "accusers". Additionally, this is not confined to her. She said if I asked most other females they would have identical stories. If any of you are wondering why females in the military can be blatantly disrespectful to their senior leadership and get away with it, according to her, in some cases its not because they're sleeping together. Its because she won't sleep with him and is disgusted with his advances.

I know that several weeks ago I would have read my own post and go "Yeah right, that chick wanted it - she's crazy - stay away from her for your own good you're gonna get blamed for something next" but the degree to which she elaborated on things and how much I respect her completely changed my mentality. Also, she didn't bring this up because she wanted to. I forced it out of her. She really didn't want to talk about it, which is unfortunate because I could ask a million questions about this.

BrigandTwoFour

08-12-13, 20:38

Snip

That is absolutely infuriating.

It does make me wonder, though. Not being an attractive female, I have no point of reference. Is this kind of shit common in every day life? Are random dudes always this crass and vulgar? Or is it perhaps magnified by assholes who believe they have a position of power that can't be significantly challenged?

While I don't doubt a lot of stories get made up to cover asses, I have certainly heard of similar harassment examples to this from civvi college girls to assume it probably happened in the military as well.

Frankly, I'm at a loss of how to stop it without going down the path that we already are.

CGSteve

08-12-13, 22:03

skydivr

08-12-13, 22:23

Euro: Now that is a damn shame. I would have thought like you, that the 'orange' zone treatment would be enough to turn most men away (as it would I). I guess we can't discount that men, in a position of power over a woman, wouldn't use that power in a deliberate attempt to gain sexual advantage. Please tell her that I, a retiree, am truly sorry for what bullshit she has had to put up with, and my advice to her would be this: I hope she kicks the nutsack off the next guy that does that to her. Change a couple of roosters to hens, and people will get the message.

And, while it's certainly NOT HER FAULT, this is one of the reasons that I don't think full integration of the services is such a good idea. Why create the situation in the first place? You don't leave a loaded gun on the table for you kid to pick up, do you? Just doesn't make sense.