View Full Version : Profiting from the next "panic"
brickboy240
07-31-13, 10:39
I got to thinking the other day ago...
The supply of ARs is coming back. So is the supply of ammo and mags. The prices on ARs worth owning is also hovering back around 1000-1100 or so right now.
Seeing that we are facing the reality of getting Hillary in 2016 and looking back on the ammo and gun buy panics or recent...I have considered buying a second Colt 6920 and squirreling it away in the safe (unfired) until the next "panic" then unloading it to make a profit.
We have seen a pattern where these rifles could easily be unloaded at 1800-2500 at a gun show, after the election of Hillary or the next Sandy Hook type event - this WILL happen again.
What else could anyone buy at a retail outlet and make THIS kind of profit on in the near future? Nothing...really. Also, my other investments have been relatively flat since about 08....I'd like to make some money somewhere and be guaranteed a good return.
We know this type of panic is going to happen again. We also know that the election of Hillary or the next Sandy Hook will also cause price spikes.
Knowing this...and seeing that most other investments are pretty flat right now.
I have to admit...I am thinking very hard about doing this because it is a pretty safe place to park a grand. What else could you buy now for a grand, have it sit with no upkeep and unload it for double in the next few years?
Anybody else thinking of doing something like this?
Do you think it is wrong for wanting to do this?
-brickboy240
My thoughts:
If we are faced with a real AWB, you most likely won't want to sell anything. At least, I wouldn't. The next ban attempts will probably be even more comprehensive and attempt to stop ownership of ALL AR-based firearms. I'd want to keep everything I had for myself and my kids, once they're of age.
A majority of others are already planning on doing the same thing you're mentioning. This means that the market will initially be flooded with AR's that have jacked up prices and making a profit won't be as easy as it appears.
Keep in mind that the ATF has determined that buying a rifle with the intent to sell it for profit, even if done legally, can be considered illegal and prosecuted (and they've done so to a few people)
If anything, I'd buy like 10-20k of ammo and hold onto it, with the possibility of selling it if shortages occurred. That seems, to me, to be the best way to invest with the current (and foreseeable) political climate.
Eurodriver
07-31-13, 10:56
Agreed with skyyyr. While it sounds good - what were you doing during the last panic? Probably scoffing at all the idiots spending $2500 on a 6920.
It would be possible but its not guaranteed. If you're buying it with the sole intention of reselling for a profit you're not completely crazy. Its doable. But its not a sure thing (no investments ever are though)
And then there's the "if there really is a ban you won't want to sell it" thing.
brickboy240
07-31-13, 10:58
I cannot decide whether it is dick-ish or a smart thing to do.
Can you think of a safer place to "park" 1100 bucks right now than in a Colt 6920?
Yes, it is illegal to buy for the reason of re-selling but if it is done many months later....very hard to prove.
The next "panic" (...and you know there will be one) one could easily unload a NIB 6920 for 1800-2200 bucks.
-brickboy240
Speculating is what it is. You may be right but then again we may have a Republican president in '16 along with the house. Either way something else could come along to induce a panic, such as the collapse of the economy. Or it may not.
No one here can tell you for sure, but personally I wouldn't buy a firearm for any reason except to own it. If I do sell one day it would be for a practical purpose and not by design.
With the market approaching a hollow 16,000 I like silver at under $20 an ounce. Our economy is a house of cards any anybody really paying attention can see it.
Magazines.
A ton of money was made selling 30rd magazines during the panic. And it never hurts to have more magazines should a ban never come.
No laws against buying to resale.
20 magazines sold for $1100 at the beginning of the last one....
brickboy240
07-31-13, 11:11
A GOP "take over" seems pretty unlikely.
Even if the GOP pulled off this fantasy...the 6920 could still be unloaded in 2016 for it's purchase price or damn close to it.
Yes, I too chastised those that paid 1800 bucks for a stock Bushmaster, but I also scoff at those that blow 60 grand on a new BMW or pay 10 grand for a Rolex. Still...people should be free to make their own bad moves with their own money. It is the Libertarian in me.
Should we learn and make money from the pattern of panics or just come here and whine about those that pay 2 grand for a basic AR?
That is the question...
-brickboy240
Army Chief
07-31-13, 11:16
My thoughts:
If we are faced with a real AWB, you most likely won't want to sell anything. At least, I wouldn't. The next ban attempts will probably be even more comprehensive and attempt to stop ownership of ALL AR-based firearms. I'd want to keep everything I had for myself and my kids, once they're of age.
A majority of others are already planning on doing the same thing you're mentioning. This means that the market will initially be flooded with AR's that have jacked up prices and making a profit won't be as easy as it appears.
Keep in mind that the ATF has determined that buying a rifle with the intent to sell it for profit, even if done legally, can be considered illegal and prosecuted (and they've done so to a few people)
If anything, I'd buy like 10-20k of ammo and hold onto it, with the possibility of selling it if shortages occurred. That seems, to me, to be the best way to invest with the current (and foreseeable) political climate.
This, exactly. As for whether such a move is savvy or slimy, I suppose that I look at it as I might any other commodity. I hate to see opportunists screw their buddies, but I understand that we can't hate them for thinking ahead. I guess in a fairly close-knit community like ours, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you're waiting on a Milt Sparks holster for a year while some prospective buyer just got his with the express intent of jacking the price and putting it up on eBay.
I wouldn't do it, and I would likely think you a bit of an ass for doing it, but you would admittedly be a pretty smart ass, as these things go.
brickboy240
07-31-13, 11:22
But by buying the AR right NOW....that does not put pressure on the makers or tie up the supply. Very different than buying DURING the panic...I'd say.
As I sit here and watch my 401k, CDs and other "investments" stuck in neutral....it is tempting to do this.
Also, during the next panic...nobody is forcing people to pay 2 grand for a Colt 6920. They do this all on their own.
You either believe in the free market and all its warts or you do not.
-brickboy240
A GOP "take over" seems pretty unlikely.
Even if the GOP pulled off this fantasy...
It is not nearly as unlikely as you portray. We already have the house and expect more seats in '14. Accompany that with the pending Obamacare disaster, one which now even James Hoffa Jr. has publicly expressed discontent and deep frustration with, along with the pending IRS outcome or financial collapse and we just may indeed have a Republican President in '16.
Personally I believe we will, although by then the damage will be so vast I'm not sure what good it will do.
Army Chief
07-31-13, 11:29
But by buying the AR right NOW....that does not put pressure on the makers or tie up the supply. Very different than buying DURING the panic...I'd say.
As I sit here and watch my 401k, CDs and other "investments" stuck in neutral....it is tempting to do this.
Also, during the next panic...nobody is forcing people to pay 2 grand for a Colt 6920. They do this all on their own.
You either believe in the free market and all its warts or you do not.
-brickboy240
Can't argue with your underlying logic ... just passing along the associated sentiment as a fellow shooter. Sentiment isn't always good for business, and I would be the first to admit that.
Of course, given the nature of lawmaking, you might end up with a valuable treasure-trove, or you might end up being forced to surrender the entire lot for pennies on the dollar in some confiscation/ban scheme.
It remains a speculative venture, at best. Promising, based upon the past, but still rather uncertain when forecast into the future.
AC
Magazines.
A ton of money was made selling 30rd magazines during the panic. And it never hurts to have more magazines should a ban never come.
No laws against buying to resale.
20 magazines sold for $1100 at the beginning of the last one....
I was thinking this as well. I'll be starting to buy a few more of these than normal, and just keeping them in the wrapper. If I want to sell them, super easy. If I need to replace one of my own, I know these are brand new.
3 things leap to mind:
1) I have diverted 200 bucks a month from my 401k and am buying magazines. I'll be using some of my bonus money to buy a 6920 that will get shrink wrapped and stored away. I live in the pac northwest and saw a Porsche driving Microsoft dude by a 6920 for 3 grand at "discount" gun sales in Lake City.
2) There was never going to be a ban after Sandy Hook. The house was not going to go for it. That likely will continue. The political realities had nothing to do with the panic. Panic by definition are emotionally based, not fact based. A republican house will not prevent another panic, nor will a "moderate" Rep President like Christie.
3) There could still be state level panics, depending on where you live.
brickboy240
07-31-13, 11:40
True.
However, if we did get some sort of all out ban...my current 6920, AK, Mini-14 and others would also go away and we'd all be screwed. We'd lose everything.
However, history shows us that the left knows a serious ban is a hard sell while chipping away at the edges of the 2nd Amendment is easier done. If Hillary wins...chances are good the GOP keeps the House and maybe closes the gap in the Senate.
Odd how some here think the GOP will suddenly pull its collective head out of it's ass and win big, while others think we will be getting an all out ban on the AR in the future. If history is any indicator...the truth is neither of these will happen.
This might indeed be speculation but it is being made with past history and actions in mind and is not altogether a bad bet. I could think of 20 worse places to park a grand in the next few years, than in a Colt 6920 that will sit in the back of the safe.
-brickboy240
montanadave
07-31-13, 11:44
Given my track record on speculative investments, the best thing I could do for firearms owners would be to lay in a stock of Colt ARs. It would virtually guarantee a government program passing out guns and ammo like free bricks of cheese.
For example: In February of 2011, I purchased stock in a Wyoming uranium mining company. Date ring a bell? Fukushima nuclear power plant? Earthquake? Tsunami? Uranium prices dropping through the floor?
I'm a lifelong adherent of the "Gomez Adams" school of investment: Buy High, Sell Low. :D
Ammo & mags. More profit to be made and it can be purchased incrementally to ease to pain of stocking it.
As to whether its slimy or not, I feel that it's a free market. I made a killing last time. Nobody made them buy it, I put it up and it sold to the highest bidder. It's not essential. It's not water/food/shelter/energy. If you hoard that for the purpose of profiteering, you ARE a scumbag. But, you or I selling items that are not essential to life, that we purchased on our own, before a "crisis" that EVERYONE should have seen coming, to people who are more than willing to pay it, is not slimy. It's capitalism.
If you can't see past next week, too bad for you.
I made lots last time and I'll make lots next time..........and the next time..........and the next time.
If some guy on the Internet is happy with $50 pmags, who am I to say he shouldn't own a few? He now has them when he previously did not, right? And he can do as he wishes with them, right?
Free people, Free country, Free market.
Army Chief
07-31-13, 11:53
True.
However, if we did get some sort of all out ban...my current 6920, AK, Mini-14 and others would also go away and we'd all be screwed. We'd lose everything. [snip] ... a Colt 6920 that will sit in the back of the safe.
Good point. I was more or less thinking one thing and typing another there. A confiscation screws us all equally, but it is also the least likely scenario. I was more thinking about a law which might track loosely along NFA lines, reducing transferability or resale options (i.e. you can keep it, but you can't really do anything with it on the open market).
Although I did not buy it for these reasons, I will admit that I too have long had a 6920 sitting in the safe, unfired, and with no particular plan. It was/is one of Ken Elmore's 1-of-300 special production HB models from his personal collection. I wanted it, and I coughed up the two bills (or whatever it was) to buy it. Never really considered selling it during the panic, since it was already a $2k class gun to start with, but a guy could do a lot worse than to hold a Colt or three in reserve -- and that isn't screwing anyone, so long as the tap remains open.
Guess I feel much the same about magazines, and those are even more readily within reach, so it's not like you're turning the screws on the guy who was working a low-wage job and couldn't afford a rifle before a lockdown.
AC
montanadave
07-31-13, 11:53
Seems I can't pass a punch bowl without tossing in a turd, so I gotta ask.
How many folks that made a killing reselling various and sundry firearms-related materials during the Obama reelection/Newtown panic reported those earnings as income?
Yeah, don't answer that. It being the intergoogle and all. ;)
Submariner
07-31-13, 11:57
Plates.
The price for quality body armor is attractive, particularly not the latest and greatest but those which are adequate. And what would it take to ban their future sale and transfer for non-government persons?
Not much.
However, if we did get some sort of all out ban...my current 6920, AK, Mini-14 and others would also go away and we'd all be screwed. We'd lose everything.
In theory. On paper. ;)
Army Chief
07-31-13, 12:22
In theory. On paper. ;)
See you in Wyoming. ;)
AC
Good point. I was more or less thinking one thing and typing another there. A confiscation screws us all equally, but it is also the least likely scenario. I was more thinking about a law which might track loosely along NFA lines, reducing transferability or resale options (i.e. you can keep it, but you can't really do anything with it on the open market).
Any law declaring AW's as contraband will be ignored by the VAST majority of owners. Same with an NFA-type tracking like Feinswine proposed. However, things go "underground" to the black market side then, where prices will (I assume) plummet as compared to if they were still legit.
Outright bans or "turn them in" crap doesn't work too well....think Prohibition and how well that worked. As a side note, I wonder if the price of a bottle of booze skyrocketed or plummetted during Prohibition? Same would likely apply to AR's in a similar situation.
See you in Wyoming. ;)
AC
I've pre-reserved my bunk. Window view, bottom rack.
Seems I can't pass a punch bowl without tossing in a turd, so I gotta ask.
How many folks that made a killing reselling various and sundry firearms-related materials during the Obama reelection/Newtown panic reported those earnings as income?
Yeah, don't answer that. It being the intergoogle and all. ;)
I'll assume this was directed at me.
I have no idea what others do, but as I sell other things online also, I have to claim it.
Does that make me better or worse now, for still not being ashamed of making money?
Buy $1,100 of toilet paper. Make sure you keep it in dry storage to protect it from moisture.
We know inflation is coming so your $1,100 will essentially "earn" the rate of inflation. As you use the toilet paper you won't be paying inflated toilet paper prices, thus, enjoying the return on your investment.
If there eventually is a toilet paper inflation you will be all set, you can even sell some of your stash at the inflated prices.
Just don't forget to pay capital gains income tax rates on your toilet paper capital gain.
montanadave
07-31-13, 12:49
I'll assume this was directed at me.
I have no idea what others do, but as I sell other things online also, I have to claim it.
Does that make me better or worse now, for still not being ashamed of making money?
Please accept my sincere apology. I did not intend to accuse you (or anyone else) of tax fraud. And I certainly find no fault in someone engaging in profitable commerce.
My point (if I had one) was simply that what initially seems like a very lucrative move does not come without its attendant consequences/liabilities, assuming one is coloring within the lines.
Please accept my sincere apology. I did not intend to accuse you (or anyone else) of tax fraud. And I certainly find no fault in someone engaging in profitable commerce.
My point (if I had one) was simply that what initially seems like a very lucrative move does not come without its attendant consequences/liabilities, assuming one is coloring within the lines.
Understood, however, no apology is necessary. I shouldn't have taken your comment personally.
You're not wrong. I'm sure most people will skirt that requirement, much like 99.99% of the public does garage sale earnings.
In the end, and more on topic, I don't believe firearm related items are a bad investment. Rarely will a man lose money on them. Worst case scenario your investment remains flat.
You're not wrong. I'm sure most people will skirt that requirement, much like 99.99% of the public does garage sale earnings.
Garage sales have no tax effect because it is almost 100% certain that your cost basis in any given item far exceeds the 25¢ you receive when selling each item.
That also effectively means your "garage sale" is not defined as a business by IRS rules. Therefore, you can't claim a "business loss" on your tax return when you sell your daughter's 3 year old $89 designer jeans for a nickel.
Now a flea market dealer type peron, he might be a different story.
Garage sales have no tax effect because it is almost 100% certain that your cost basis in any given item far exceeds the 25¢ you receive when selling each item.
That also effectively means your "garage sale" is not defined as a business by IRS rules. Therefore, you can't claim a "business loss" on your tax return when you sell your daughter's 3 year old $89 designer jeans for a nickel.
Now a flea market dealer type peron, he might be a different story.
Agreed. I used a poor example.
I figured, but didn't know.
I wonder if the guys that bought hundreds of dollars of ammo and tried to resell it at a gain... are now going to try an take a business loss on their return.
Yes, it is illegal to buy for the reason of re-selling but if it is done many months later....very hard to prove.
No it is NOT illegal.
It is illegal to be "engaged in business for a profit" without a license. A guy buying ONE firearm does not meet the criteria of "being engaged in business", especially if he is paying retail for that one firearm.
Now if you make it your OCCUPATION to buy and resell guns on gunbroker, then you meet the criteria for being "engaged in business for a profit."
But by buying the AR right NOW....that does not put pressure on the makers or tie up the supply. Very different than buying DURING the panic...I'd say.
As I sit here and watch my 401k, CDs and other "investments" stuck in neutral....it is tempting to do this.
Also, during the next panic...nobody is forcing people to pay 2 grand for a Colt 6920. They do this all on their own.
You either believe in the free market and all its warts or you do not.
-brickboy240
Remember right after Sandy Hook when they were floating the idea of making "semi automatic assault rifles" NFA weapons and we even had a few people on this forum championing the idea because it was "better than an outright ban"?
What happens to your investment when that is the solution to the next crisis?
One thing I've learned being into guns for decades now is you NEVER really see it coming.
In 1989 everyone found out about the import ban AFTER the fact.
In 1994 everyone said the Clinton Ban would "never happen."
In 2004 we all believed the new assault weapon ban would be inevitable and soon.
Nobody ever imagined there would be a barrel ban.
In 2008 when Obama won the election there would be a panic buy on guns and magazines, nobody imagined the ammo shortage and prices still have not gone down to pre election prices.
Nobody imagined it would be Pmags after Sandy Hook.
ARs and AKs are generally a safe "boogeyman" because McCarthy, Feinstein and Pelosi are broken records who don't know any other tunes.
Army Chief
07-31-13, 14:38
Heck, I remember being a young 20-something kid in the spring of 1986 when the FOPA put us out of the machinegun business. Wanted to pick up a Billistics registered-receiver MP-5 at the time, but honestly, where was I going to find $3,500 all at once? Even a $1,500 NIB Colt M-16A1 might as well have come with a mortgage; especially when a Sporter II carbine (my first AR) cost 1/3 of that.
The nature of all of this is beyond unpredictable. All of us expected to come out of the last session with at least a black eye, and lest we celebrate too prematurely, a lot of guys in several states actually did. We didn't lose the ship, but several lifeboats did manage to fall off while we were ducking for cover below decks.
Standard-capacity magazines, semiautomatic rifles, bulk ammo, personal armor ... as these things become more and more the stuff of Hollywood, and less and less the kinds of things that "normal" Americans ever actually see (much less own), we are doubtless going to end up facing even more of this well-intentioned madness.
Buy? Sell? Invest? I really don't know, but I'll definitely be keeping my personal kit and spares in adequate supply and good working order.
AC
brickboy240
07-31-13, 15:07
Looking into the near future....another ammo/gun buying panic after the 2016 election seems VERY likely. Especially if the GOP loses the House or loses more seats there and in the Senate. Just the election of Hillary, period will send shock waves through the gun world...enough to cause shortages and high prices.
An outright ban on ARs before the 2016 election, that would require me to either turn everything in or register it NFA style seems MUCH less likely to happen.
If I do this...I don't plan on sitting on the thing forever, but unloading it for hopefully 2000 or so plus at the first panic. Not waiting forever. The NEXT panic could be from an all out ban.
So yeah, there is risk but I can think of many other items that you could invest in that have no where near these odds or returns.
The toilet paper idea has to be some sort of joke. Items like that do not have nearly the chance of spiking up in price as do just about any firearm. Also, an 1100 dollar AR is tons easier to store than 110 dollars worth of toilet paper. Less susceptible to weather/moisture as well. LOL
I guess you could not only do what I am doing with an AR but just about anything that is target for a ban. Pistol mags that hold more than 10 rounds, AKs, etc. I just chose the Colt AR because it seems to appreciate the most and the fastest. Also...if I got "stuck" with it...it is something I don't mind having two of, because of its quality and desirability.
-brickboy240
I don't think it is a bad idea, even if you choose to hold onto extra rifles. If there is a ban, and a run on ARs, the whole "two is one, one is none" pholosophy works, especially if you want or need quality parts.
Heres a better idea: buy 1100 worth of stock that pays 12%+ dividends. You will be more liquid and you will get immediate returns on your cash instead of having inventory in tangible goods.
brickboy240
07-31-13, 15:28
Forget it.
I lost almost half of my 401k twice in a span of 8 years. once in 2000 and again in 2008. Did what everyone told me to do: diversify, place it in good growth stock mutual funds, stock blend funds, foreign market mutual funds, blend funds and so on. Dollar cost average....you know...the whole 9 yards.
Maybe 15-20 years ago, the whole stock, mutual fund, 401k thing was a great deal but today....forget it. Too many things that look great right now and yield 12% go completely bottom up in short time. Too many "corrections" where the only people that make money are the fund managers that make commissions when they churn your accounts.
Sorry...the stock market is for suckers and seems rigged. Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. I am too old to suffer too many more "corrections' or "buying opportunities" in the stock market.
Besides, if our currency collapses or our economy really turns for the worse...nobody is going to trade you a can of beans or ammo for a stock certificate or even a gold coin!
Beans...band-aids...bullets....that is my policy these days.
-brickboy240
Screw it, might as well. Fortune favors the bold.
Plus it wouldn't hurt to take advantage of the morons willing to be raped financially for shit that's only going to be confiscated.
brickboy240
07-31-13, 15:34
True.
Me selling an AR for 2 grand is no different than me being a car dealer and selling you a 60 thousand dollar car.
I think you are a moron for buying either but you should be free to do whatever you want with the money you have earned.
Besides, most of those that buy during those times are either lazy people that were not paying attention, wealthy people that can afford it or those that voted for the ban politicians. Shouldn't we punish those people and profit from it? LOL
-brickboy240
I just chose the Colt AR because it seems to appreciate the most and the fastest. Also...if I got "stuck" with it...it is something I don't mind having two of, because of its quality and desirability.
-brickboy240
Arsenal SGL-21s were about $400 back in 2007. Today they are $1200.
brickboy240
07-31-13, 15:59
My other reason for the Colt 6920 is yeah....I already have one and the old "two is one" line and the fact that I know of it's quality are good reasons to have a second one.
Besides...if we get an NFA type registration...I will have parts for the original 6920.
-brickboy240
Arsenal SGL-21s were about $400 back in 2007. Today they are $1200.
Agreed. And the cost of producing goods is becoming increasingly expensive. Just the cost of the manufacturing the current firearm after obozocare takes effect will increase the price to build to as labor isn't free.
Fake reported inflation is 0% but in reality it is 9% which is about the overall price increase each year for quality domestically produced firearms. It is only going to get worse and demand for quality firearms isn't diminishing anytime soon.
Ouroborous
07-31-13, 20:48
If anything, I'd buy like 10-20k of ammo and hold onto it, with the possibility of selling it if shortages occurred. That seems, to me, to be the best way to invest with the current (and foreseeable) political climate.
That's what a few particularly slimy libtards were doing in early November at my LGS. In January, sold 5k worth of 5.56 right back to the guy they bought it from, for 10k– doubling their money.
They told the shop's owner that their investment advisor recommended the purchase in November and even though they were anti-gun, they weren't morally opposed to turning a profit. It worked out for them but it makes me sick that this type of stuff actually goes on.
Is flipping guns so different than flipping any other product? Sure the ATF may think so but if you're going through an FFL then it's all legit...
Eurodriver
07-31-13, 21:02
Fake reported inflation is 0% but in reality it is 9% which is about the overall price increase each year for quality domestically produced firearms. It is only going to get worse and demand for quality firearms isn't diminishing anytime soon.
:rolleyes:
So uhh...9% huh?
So those $415 S&W642s a year ago are now $450? And two years ago they were $380?
I hear this shit all the time. Gun prices actually vary too much to put a percentage number on inflation. Remember when 6920s were commonly found for $1300? I do. And that was several years ago. Now you can pick them up for $1199 at Walmart....and thats with the ridiculous post-sandy hook BS.
I'm not seeing 9% increases in anything...except food.
Eurodriver
07-31-13, 21:04
It worked out for them but it makes me sick that this type of stuff actually goes on.
Free markets make you sick? I understand the idea why you're upset but if Warren Buffett wants to buy all of the domestically produced ammunition currently for sale in America (and he probably could) that's the way the system works.
Luckily for us, if he did that, the ammo companies would go ape shit producing more ammo to fill orders and he couldn't keep that up forever. Prices would come down and we'd eventually be better off.
On another note - they sold their ammo for double their money. That's much better than just dumping it into the ocean. That's a bunch of 5.56mm that is now on the market that wasn't there before they put it there.
Is flipping guns so different than flipping any other product? Sure the ATF may think so but if you're going through an FFL then it's all legit...
Normally when something is flipped it is bought either distressed or depreciated in some regard, upgraded and/or repaired and then sold for profit. Buying something and selling it solely for profit with no work in between is a straight speculative investment.
Not a huge difference but there is one to speak of.
I would wait. I think prices will drop in the fall and that will be the time to buy. ( more speculation) I personally am waiting for some more $50 Psa lowers that I made a killing on GB with. 4 lowers sold for over $1300. The cheapest sold for $300, a better investment IMO.
On a side note I was selling .223 and 9mm for $2 at my last yard sale and made a quick $600. We're talking about the cheap stuff too.
Alaskapopo
07-31-13, 21:53
In theory. On paper. ;)
Enjoyment of those guns would be pretty hard. I don't know about you but I enjoy shooting not just looking at my guns in the safe. I also enjoy the shooting sports. We need to do what we can to keep bad laws from passing.
Pat
Ouroborous
07-31-13, 22:11
Free markets make you sick?.
No, antigunners who say they'd like to eradicate the 2A altogether but then happily turnaround to make a profit off it do.
Enjoyment of those guns would be pretty hard. I don't know about you but I enjoy shooting not just looking at my guns in the safe. I also enjoy the shooting sports. We need to do what we can to keep bad laws from passing.
Pat
Agree 100%. Just saying that if we were outnumbered/outvoted in legislative circles (not an impossibility in today's PC bizarro world) then, uh, Prohibition comes to mind. People still drank alcohol, right? Granted, busting a cap is a lot louder than popping open a beer or ice crackling as some bourbon is poured over it......but still.
Yes, enjoyment would be pretty hard. Locale would play a large role in the risk also. I live in the sticks and hear gunshots frequently on nice days. It's also Tennessee. It's not NY, NJ, Kali, or even metro Nashville.
But yeah, we must do all we can to stop stupidity like AWB's.
Curiosity question for economics guys: does a black market for items increase or decrease prices? That 6920 the OP was talking about buying could drop like a rock ('cause it's contraband) or shoot upward.....wonder which? For instance, if drugs were legalized, even with taxes levied, I suspect the price would drop. During Prohibition, I'll guess the price for a bottle of booze shot up quickly, but as bootleggers became more prolific I bet the price dropped (of course a commodity like a weapon, which likely wouldn't be produced on the black market, wouldn't drop off). ??????????????????????
:rolleyes:
So uhh...9% huh?
So those $415 S&W642s a year ago are now $450? And two years ago they were $380?
I hear this shit all the time. Gun prices actually vary too much to put a percentage number on inflation. Remember when 6920s were commonly found for $1300? I do. And that was several years ago. Now you can pick them up for $1199 at Walmart....and thats with the ridiculous post-sandy hook BS.
I'm not seeing 9% increases in anything...except food.
2 years ago I paid $999... Not $1199...
Dick-ish is being a cry baby because you didn't prepare when others did. I have no idea what's going to happen but I have learned a number of things. Be prepared with ammo and mags as best you can.
Have parts on hand to keep your stuff running. I have more AR's than people in my household, but I have "bargaining power" both in knowledge, ammo and weapons.
I cannot decide whether it is dick-ish or a smart thing to do.
Can you think of a safer place to "park" 1100 bucks right now than in a Colt 6920?
Yes, it is illegal to buy for the reason of re-selling but if it is done many months later....very hard to prove.
The next "panic" (...and you know there will be one) one could easily unload a NIB 6920 for 1800-2200 bucks.
-brickboy240
jklaughrey
08-01-13, 02:37
Dick-ish is being a cry baby because you didn't prepare when others did. I have no idea what's going to happen but I have learned a number of things. Be prepared with ammo and mags as best you can.
Have parts on hand to keep your stuff running. I have more AR's than people in my household, but I have "bargaining power" both in knowledge, ammo and weapons.
^This is a BINGO!
To brickboy. On another note, parking 1100$, hmm I'd rather buy hookers and blow;-)
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I lived in Germany for several years and I was there after the wall fell and there were AK's flooding the streets for 300 USD as well as hand grenades, etc... Trust me when I tell you that if something as stupid as "prohibition" happened with firearms and ammunition then prices will go up, not down. People will be illegal firearms, ammo and mags because it will be all but impossible to enforce just like the other "prohibition".
Any law declaring AW's as contraband will be ignored by the VAST majority of owners. Same with an NFA-type tracking like Feinswine proposed. However, things go "underground" to the black market side then, where prices will (I assume) plummet as compared to if they were still legit.
Outright bans or "turn them in" crap doesn't work too well....think Prohibition and how well that worked. As a side note, I wonder if the price of a bottle of booze skyrocketed or plummetted during Prohibition? Same would likely apply to AR's in a similar situation.
I have an acquaintance who shortly after the shooting in CT cashed in a decent size of this 401K. He immediately gobbled up PMAG's, ammo and some AR's. He quadrupled his investment in PMAG's, he almost tripled his investment in the ammo and he doubled his investment in AR's.
Very ballsy move, but he saw the writing on the wall. I only wish that I would have had that kind of cash available. I would have made a small fortune as well.
I have an acquaintance who shortly after the shooting in CT cashed in a decent size of this 401K. He immediately gobbled up PMAG's, ammo and some AR's. He quadrupled his investment in PMAG's, he almost tripled his investment in the ammo and he doubled his investment in AR's.
Very ballsy move, but he saw the writing on the wall. I only wish that I would have had that kind of cash available. I would have made a small fortune as well.
That was a ballsy move indeed, as prices went up REAL quick. I'm surprised he had enough time to go through the rigamarole involved in cashing out a 401K and then to secure his purchases. He would almost have had to start the ball rolling the DAY it happened.
I should have been a little bit more precise. Literally he did it that afternoon. And started making purchases right away with his credit cards.
That was a ballsy move indeed, as prices went up REAL quick. I'm surprised he had enough time to go through the rigamarole involved in cashing out a 401K and then to secure his purchases. He would almost have had to start the ball rolling the DAY it happened.
Normally when something is flipped it is bought either distressed or depreciated in some regard, upgraded and/or repaired and then sold for profit. Buying something and selling it solely for profit with no work in between is a straight speculative investment.
Not a huge difference but there is one to speak of.
I meant the only reason that people are annoyed with this is because it's a firearm. If it was a car, house, stock, or toilet paper then nobody would care. Buy it, wait for it's value to go up and sell it. You don't have to do anything to to the product if you know what the market's going to do, and there is going to be another market opportunity at some point, but nobody knows WHEN.
brickboy240
08-01-13, 09:48
Well nobody can foretell the future.
However...the left and media have figured out that they can chip away at gun rights after a tragic event and they will no doubt try it again in the future. Especially if we get Hillary and they keep the Senate.
I guess the time to grab extras is when it starts looking like Hillary is going to win. Waiting until October of 2016 is probably going to be too late. Right now...Colt 6920s are 1100 bucks at Wal Mart, 223 ammo is around in quantity and mags an be found at way under 20 bucks a pop if you look.
I would predict that the panic buying after Hillary wins will be MUCH more severe than we saw it in 08 or after Sandy Hook. Why? Because we have seen panics and shortages before as well as legislation like what went down in NY and CO. The idea of more bans and restrictions will be very fresh on everyone's minds.
I agree...the real "dick-ish" behavior is whining and racing around to pay high prices AFTER an election or ban. I learned my lesson in 08 and have stocked up on ammo, mags and other goodies. Most smart gun people SHOULD have learned by now.
Those that we would be selling to after Hillary's election are just the morons that were too lazy or uninformed or those that are very wealthy and can easily afford it. I see less of a moral problem with profiting from people like that.
You all have heard Napolitano's silly, "if you see something...say something" phrase...right? From recent history, I think it is safe to say that the slogan, "if you see something....grab something" applies.
That means, if you have the extra money and you come across a decent deal on ammo, guns or mags....you better grab them up. The supply could cut off after the next crazy shooting or election.
We need to learn from history...not just react to it as it goes down.
-brickboy240
I have an acquaintance who shortly after the shooting in CT cashed in a decent size of this 401K. He immediately gobbled up PMAG's, ammo and some AR's. He quadrupled his investment in PMAG's, he almost tripled his investment in the ammo and he doubled his investment in AR's.
Very ballsy move, but he saw the writing on the wall. I only wish that I would have had that kind of cash available. I would have made a small fortune as well.
I call poppycock on this. Since we don't have any numbers let us assume the following facts:
He took $100,000 out of his 401k.
He is in the 15% income tax bracket.
He bought all pmags (the biggest ROI item)
He bough pmags at the low of $20 even though prices went up immediately.
He sold pmags at the high of $70, which didn't last all that long.
Withdraw $100,000 from 401(k)
On a withdrawal IRS rules require 20% withholding.
So his $100,000 became cash of $80,000, immediately.
Ignoring any costs of selling his $80,000 pmags netted $280,000 when he sold them.
So at the end of the tax year his return has his normal income from working. On top of that taxes he adds NEW income this year, subject to his highest bracket:
Assume:
15% income tax on $100,000 withdrawal, $15,000 in tax.
10% penalty for withdrawing from 401K before age 59½, $10,000 in tax
15% income tax on gains, $200,000 x 15%= $30,000 in tax
So lets recap:
Revenues $280,000
Cost of goods sold $-80,000
Gross profit $200,000
cost of sales, 0.
Profit $200,000.
Income Tax on 401k withdrawal $-15,000
IRS Penalty on withdrawal $-10,000
Income tax on profit $-30,000
Net from transaction $145,000
I assumed best-case scenario with the highest return product and probably picked too low of a tax bracket. He might have avoided the 10% penalty and income tax on the withdrawal if he was able to roll the $100,000 back into his 401(k) within 60 days, but that is highly doubtful. Didn't include shipping costs to get the inventory, shipping costs to send, credit card/paypal vendor fees, fraudulent transactions, credit card interest, etc.
There is no way he tripled his $100,000 401(k), he is blowing smoke. The tax cost is just too high.
Although perhaps he now is going to be reminded by an acquaintance that when he files his taxes this year, he better have the cash for a huge, huge tax bill. He may have overlooked that. I am sure the IRS isn't going to forget.
Yep, I will continue to speculate and buy as much 5.56 and 9mm plinking and duty ammo as my budget will allow from here on out.
I am betting that in the future, the profit margin and the ability to sell that ammo will be easier than the over saturated guns or mags market. Also, during this lull in the battle, the procrastinators should have more than ample time to acquire guns,mags,ammo,etc., *so no more whining*
automobiles + no or high price gas = less or no driving
guns + no or high price ammo = no or a lot less shooting
So I'm going to sell my first home soon (a condo). When I do I'll probably net a good chunk of money from the sale. I can also take a loan from my 401k and as long as I pay it back I won't be paying any taxes/penalty. If I thought a scare was imminent then I'd get an apartment in the meantime, buy all the ammo/mags/Colt's that I could find and offload it during the scare. Would it be possible to turn $50k into $100k, and pay back that 401k loan in a lump payment to be left with a nice lump sum to pocket? Yes, it's possible - but it's risky. What if things don't work out for some reason? I would not recommend that anyone deviate from a well thought out long term financial plan to gamble with their existing assets or savings while trying to make a quick buck.
However if you want to do that, then by all means go for it - but if it doesn't work out and you get stuck with a crap deal in the end, oh well, that sucks huh.
I call poppycock on this. Since we don't have any numbers let us assume the following facts:
------snip-------
Income tax on profit $-30,000
You can add that $30K back on into his "take home" on the whole deal 'cause only an idiot is going to report profit from essentially untraceable transactions. I doubt he sold to businesses where a receipt would be the norm, most likely to various individuals. FTF at gunshows or flea markets would be even better. I highly doubt he turned a quick buck or two to just turn right around and report it to the freaking IRS.
I call poppycock on this. Since we don't have any numbers let us assume the following facts:
He bough pmags at the low of $20 even though prices went up immediately.
FYI right up to and briefly after the shooting, PMAGs could be had for $10 a piece, in batches of ten or one hundred.
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 15:36
You can add that $30K back on into his "take home" on the whole deal 'cause only an idiot is going to report profit from essentially untraceable transactions. I doubt he sold to businesses where a receipt would be the norm, most likely to various individuals. FTF at gunshows or flea markets would be even better. I highly doubt he turned a quick buck or two to just turn right around and report it to the freaking IRS.
An idiot who does not believe in committing tax fraud. This attitude is part of the reason we have the national debt we have today. People cheating on their taxes.
Pat
Eurodriver
08-01-13, 15:42
An idiot who does not believe in committing tax fraud. This attitude is part of the reason we have the national debt we have today. People cheating on their taxes.
Pat
You're absolutely correct.
.00001% of our problems are most definitely related to "tax fraud". I most certainly report sales tax when I have a garage sale. Don't you?
As for the other 99.99999%, I'll attribute it to waste and government excess.
An idiot who does not believe in committing tax fraud. This attitude is part of the reason we have the national debt we have today. People cheating on their taxes.
Pat
Pat...please. :rolleyes:
An idiot who does not believe in committing tax fraud. This attitude is part of the reason we have the national debt we have today. People cheating on their taxes.
Pat
Oh my God, are you serious? Jeez....
No, the reason we have the debt we do isn't from some guy turning a quick profit from his own money (which I might add, he already paid taxes on). It's from the ever-rising class of non-contributors continuing to gobble up resources ($$$) while not paying into the system. Start with the EITC and work your way down. You know, that ~ %50 who have no federal income tax burden? And at the top end the IRS is pretty good about going after BIG bucks cheaters, the super-rich "my money is overseas" crowd.
Just on principle alone why this guy would owe one damn cent to the IRS is beyond me.
Pat...please. :rolleyes:
This.
Come on, dude. Really?
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 15:55
You're absolutely correct.
.00001% of our problems are most definitely related to "tax fraud". I most certainly report sales tax when I have a garage sale. Don't you?
As for the other 99.99999%, I'll attribute it to waste and government excess.
Gee where did you get those numbers? Cite please? But I won't hold my breath. The truth is both over spending and tax fraud are problems. The underground economy is huge.
Pat
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 15:57
Oh my God, are you serious? Jeez....
No, the reason we have the debt we do isn't from some guy turning a quick profit from his own money (which I might add, he already paid taxes on). It's from the ever-rising class of non-contributors continuing to gobble up resources ($$$) while not paying into the system. Start with the EITC and work your way down. You know, that ~ %50 who have no federal income tax burden? And at the top end the IRS is pretty good about going after BIG bucks cheaters, the super-rich "my money is overseas" crowd.
Just on principle alone why this guy would owe one damn cent to the IRS is beyond me.
New profit is new money that needs to have taxes paid on it if its over a certain amount. $600 I believe but would have to look it up to be sure.
Pat
Gee where did you get those numbers? Cite please? But I won't hold my breath. The truth is both over spending and tax fraud are problems. The underground economy is huge.
Pat
I'd be willing to bet that all domestic tax fraud COMBINED doesn't amount to what your government pisses away in one week.
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 15:59
I'd be willing to bet that all domestic tax fraud COMBINED doesn't amount to what your government pisses away in one week.
Even if that were true which I doubt it does not justify breaking the law.
Pat
brickboy240
08-01-13, 16:00
The average working American making maybe 100k a year or less...is NOT the reason we have a trillion dollar debt.
The debt is because the govt itself cannot stop spending money on anything.
By the time I quit typing this...the govt has spent many times what anyone made in profit during all of the gun ban panics.
Want to stop the debt? Get on your municipal employer and other govt leaders that piss tax money away and do not know how to live within their means. THEY are the problem...not us.
-brickboy240
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 16:02
The average working American making maybe 100k a year or less...is NOT the reason we have a trillion dollar debt.
The debt is because the govt itself cannot stop spending money on anything.
By the time I quit typing this...the govt has spent many times what anyone made in profit during all of the gun ban panics.
Want to stop the debt? Get on your municipal employer and other govt leaders that piss tax money away and do not know how to live within their means. THEY are the problem...not us.
-brickboy240
Ahh the old us vs them. The thing is if people don't like how tax money is spent they can make that displeasure known in the voting booth. You can not however elect to just not pay your taxes at least not without consequences. And frankly I am not seeing money being pissed away locally.
Pat
Even if that were true which I doubt it does not justify breaking the law.
Pat
I never made that comment and I agree. I was commenting on your assertion that tax fraud is why we as a country are so far in debt, which is laughable.
New profit is new money that needs to have taxes paid on it if its over a certain amount. $600 I believe but would have to look it up to be sure.
Pat
When you get that 50% to start paying taxes---at all---then we can discuss some poor schmuck taking a risk with his own freaking money to turn a buck or two.
Put it this way: if this guy somehow got snagged and it went to trial for income tax evasion and I sat on his jury, guess what the verdict would be? Not guilty or a hung jury.
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 16:06
When you get that 50% to start paying taxes---at all---then we can discuss some poor schmuck taking a risk with his own freaking money to turn a buck or two.
Put it this way: if this guy somehow got snagged and it went to trial for income tax evasion and I sat on his jury, guess what the verdict would be? Not guilty or a hung jury.
That number is smoke and mirrors. For starters it counts people who are retired such as military pensoners as not paying taxes.
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/true-or-false-over-50-do-not-pay-income-tax
Ahh the old us vs them. The thing is if people don't like how tax money is spent they can make that displeasure known in the voting booth. You can not however elect to just not pay your taxes at least not without consequences. And frankly I am not seeing money being pissed away locally.
Pat
Why do I not find that shocking? Couldn't be because that's where your paycheck is coming from could it? Like why Congress will never change: everyone thinks it's someone else's Rep or Senator that is the problem.
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 16:07
I never made that comment and I agree. I was commenting on your assertion that tax fraud is why we as a country are so far in debt, which is laughable.
Its all part of the problem. Just like when you balance your check book. You have to match your income to your expenses. To solve the problem you do both cut down where you can on expenses and try to find ways to earn more money at the same time.
Pat
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 16:09
Why do I not find that shocking? Couldn't be because that's where your paycheck is coming from could it? Like why Congress will never change: everyone thinks it's someone else's Rep or Senator that is the problem.
So are you saying I should work for free? I can tell you I am not getting rich and I work for one of the lowest paid departments in my state. We have not seen a cost of living increase in years. Either way suggesting someone commit tax fraud is flat out wrong. Also at least for a few years your paycheck came from the government as well.
Pat
Why is one fool who chooses to walk into the room and throw shit around allowed to dictate the course of our evening? Every time this man interjects he causes a problem. A nice a guy as he is let him talk to himself and stop buying into the baseless instigations.
That number is smoke and mirrors. For starters it counts people who are retired such as military pensoners as not paying taxes.
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/true-or-false-over-50-do-not-pay-income-tax
You're either paying income taxes or you aren't....PERIOD. Don't care what entity the income is from, if there isn't a "federal tax withheld" line then you aren't paying income tax. Why is that so hard to understand?
Your talking points sound a lot like the two diehard Dems I work with. :rolleyes:
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 16:13
You're either paying income taxes or you aren't....PERIOD. Don't care where the income is from, if there isn't a "federal tax withheld" line then you aren't paying income tax. Why is that so hard to understand?
Your talking points sound a lot like the two diehard Dems I work with. :rolleyes:
You sound like a brainwashed right winger. People on retirement have already paid their taxes when the money was made. Do you expect grandpa and grandma to go back to work? More right wing propaganda.
I am neither a Democrat or a Republican I am an independent voter and I vote for the person not the party.
Stupid republicans and libertarians are just as annoying to me as stupid democrats.
Pat
Army Chief
08-01-13, 16:18
Guys, go get yourselves some herbal tea. It's going to be ok. ;)
AC
Guys, go get yourselves some herbal tea. It's going to be ok. ;)
AC
I only have regular tea. Does mean I now also have to go to the store due to Pats instigations? Plus it stormy here today for heaven's sake. :mad:
In all seriousness he may just as well enter a discussion with "Why do you civilian-type people need AR's anyway? If you would just pay more in taxes there will be more like me to sensibly regulate your misguided lives."
Ok, I'm going to get my tea now.
Army Chief
08-01-13, 16:29
I only have regular tea. Does mean I now also have to go to the store due to Pats instigations? Plus it stormy here today for heaven's sake. :mad:
Tav, quit your grousing, hop into the Jag, and just go get the tea, you big whiner. Your hair isn't going to get that messed up. Freaking Italian dudes. Sheesh.
I know Pat makes things hard on us sometimes, but it's the price of participation. ;)
AC
Safetyhit, I've been convinced for awhile that Pat is one of those govt planted instigators we read about a few months ago.
That, or he believed the crap he says. Not sure which is worse, but don't let him ruin your day. Or your tea. :)
Tav, quit your grousing, hop into the Jag, and just go get the tea, you big whiner. Your hair isn't going to get that messed up. Freaking Italian dudes. Sheesh.
I know Pat makes things hard on us sometimes, but it's the price of participation. ;)
AC
Oh that was just so damn funny. You truly are an oracle.
Smiley for comment clarification: :D
brickboy240
08-01-13, 16:46
Most people I know that work for a state, local, county or federal institution never seem to full grasp how those of us that work in the private sector have a fear or distrust of government.
They tend to think we are paranoid or overly sensitive or tin foil hatters. I guess if you work for a govt body...you tend to not see it as any sort of threat and don't have the same knee-jerk reaction to it's over-reach.
I have a friend that is a detective and have know a former city district attorney. Both had that same mentality. Since their bread and butter CAME from govt. they failed to see how ANY of us could see them as an enemy or ever question things they do. They failed to see how the institutions they worked for could ever harm us or be a threat. To them, I will always be a little nutty because I question every move of any govt. institution.
You have to know that when you deal with people that get their paychecks from some sort of govt. body be it police, fire, county, city, state or federal.
It does not mean they are bad people...it just comes from prospective. I am sure that if I had worked for govt...I would also not see them as a threat and blame the private citizens first.
-brickboy240
Army Chief
08-01-13, 16:54
I don't know about the whole trust or paranoia thing, necessarily, but I can see what you're saying. When I worked as an LEO (municipal part-timer, full-time Guard right after college), I did have a very different sense of my place in the town, the town government and my overall role in the community. I'm not sure that translated into any more or less "trust," really, but at least I knew -- and was known by -- the folks that made a lot of the decisions that I had to live with.
When you are talking about government at the federal level, of course, the "inner circle" becomes very small indeed, and that kind of confidence only permeates so far down before it dissipates altogether, and the rest of us are left to wonder what these folks are thinking, and if they even care how it affects our lives.
A representative government is far better than one in which we have no voice at all, of course, but even as a career soldier, I'm not really going about my day feeling any more enfranchised or disenfranchised than I would be if I were managing the local hardware store. I think it has more to do with your politics, and the issues that are most important to you. When we see those under attack, it really makes no difference if your vantage point is Main Street or Pennsylvania Avenue ... it still sucks.
If you look hard enough for long enough, there may be a salient point in there someplace. ;)
AC
If you took 100 government employees I'd bet on the following break-down:
25% - Support big government and enjoy their sense of control regardless of the overall implications.
45% - Fairly indifferent to government overreach and fully complacent in their potentially questionable roles so long as they collect a paycheck and can look forward to a pension.
25% - Have concerns about what they are doing, but do it out of perceived necessity.
4+% - Feeling deeply frustrated, may do something about it tomorrow. Or next week...or month.
-1% - Willing to sacrifice their current standing and employment for what they know is right.
Army Chief
08-01-13, 17:10
Probably not very far from the mark, but I'm mostly just glad that you went with percentages. I really, really suck at fractions.
I think that, pretty much no matter where you happen to fall into the stack, you still have that "cog in the machine" feeling; especially in the federal system.
AC
Well this turned to crap quick.
Either choose to report the income or not and live with the consequences.
Can we get back to talking about being price gouging, EE strangling, gunbroker junkies trying to make money off the uninformed newbies to the gun world who will want to buy guns/mags/ammo next time there's a panic in the market?
There has to be a whole lot of prospectors that are stuck with an overload of magazines, bolts, BCGs etc that they were not able to unload at a nice profit. Has anybody got stuck with these products since they have been back on shelves for a while?
I stocked up big time before the chaos began (Sandy hook and all), only to find that all of my family did not take my advice and do the same. I basically doled it all out at the prices I paid so my family didn't struggle during the craziness.
I did get a few rare bottles of scotch out of the deal though.
I say go for it if you like. Pretty much a safe bet in my eyes. Either you keep the 6920 and have more toys or you get the chance to sell it for a bit of profit. I would put some money in to quality factory ammo as well; and reloading components.
No reason to be ashamed of getting someone to pay the price you are asking for an object you are offering. They have a choice in the matter afterall.
Oh and if confiscation ever becomes a reality, you have another tool to use (or hand to a fellow citizen to use) to fight the bastards coming for your liberty :D
I'm going to stock up on ammo and reloading components. I don't think I could ever have "enough: of those- ever.
Quite honestly- with all of the illegal and unconstitutional taxes the government collects and forces us all to pay- I couldn't care less about anyone keeping a few things off of the books.
It's not like the government imposes/collects taxes on itself from weapons sales to militants & terrorists in other countries? Or when they send thousands of guns to drug cartels in Mexico- right?
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 20:00
If you took 100 government employees I'd bet on the following break-down:
25% - Support big government and enjoy their sense of control regardless of the overall implications.
45% - Fairly indifferent to government overreach and fully complacent in their potentially questionable roles so long as they collect a paycheck and can look forward to a pension.
25% - Have concerns about what they are doing, but do it out of perceived necessity.
4+% - Feeling deeply frustrated, may do something about it tomorrow. Or next week...or month.
-1% - Willing to sacrifice their current standing and employment for what they know is right.
Most know they provide a vital public service and deserve fair compensation for their labor. I know what is right thank you very much and it is not an anarchist utopia. Back to the topic at hand. If someone wants to sell their property its their right and its the buyers right to accept the deal, negotiate or walk away. Not crying for anyone who says they were the victims of price gouging as that is self inflicted.
Pat
Can we get back to talking about being price gouging, EE strangling, gunbroker junkies trying to make money off the uninformed newbies to the gun world who will want to buy guns/mags/ammo next time there's a panic in the market?
There were several attempts at it but Dudley Doright/Larry Law-abiding came in and sanctimoniously advised us it is our duty to fork over tax money to .gov if we turn a buck or two from prudent and risky investments made with our [previously] taxed $$$.
People on retirement have already paid their taxes when the money was made. As did the guy who bought the 6920 he held on to for an investment. Do you expect grandpa and grandma to go back to work? More right wing propaganda.
I am neither a Democrat or a Republican I am an independent voter and I vote for the person not the party.
Stupid republicans and libertarians are just as annoying to me as stupid democrats. TFB
Pat
We're obviously not going to agree on this so find the U.S. Treasury address to send in your voluntary tax should you ever sell at a "gouging" price and let others do as they see fit.
Army Chief
08-01-13, 21:56
There were several attempts at it but Dudley Doright/Larry Law-abiding came in ...
Oh great ... now I have to try to figure out if that was really name-calling, or not. lol
AC
Oh great ... now I have to try to figure out if that was really name-calling, or not. lol
AC
It's not. I'll not crowd this thread off-topic anymore. However, taxation might be a good idea for a new thread. Hmmm......
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 22:03
There were several attempts at it but Dudley Doright/Larry Law-abiding came in and sanctimoniously advised us it is our duty to fork over tax money to .gov if we turn a buck or two from prudent and risky investments made with our [previously] taxed $$$.
Previously earned money that is invested and that gains a return just created new profit (new money) which is taxed. (Capital gains anyone)
Pat
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 22:05
We're obviously not going to agree on this so find the U.S. Treasury address to send in your voluntary tax should you ever sell at a "gouging" price and let others do as they see fit.
I believe in following the law. The law states the amount of income that you have to report for tax purposes and the 30K figure you threw out in an earlier post is well over that amount and if the IRS knew they would care.
pat
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 22:07
Oh great ... now I have to try to figure out if that was really name-calling, or not. lol
AC
It was but frankly I am getting used to it.
Pat
I believe in following the law. The law states the amount of income that you have to report for tax purposes and the 30K figure you threw out in an earlier post is well over that amount and if the IRS knew they would care.
pat
If they knew, you're right. If they knew.....key words there.
See other thread.
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 22:47
If they knew, you're right. If they knew.....key words there.
See other thread.
There is an incentive program to reward people who turn in tax cheats. So sooner or later if people do this type of activity they will get caught.
Pat
There is an incentive program to reward people who turn in tax cheats. So sooner or later if people do this type of activity they will get caught.
Pat
Not like that smacks of Big Brother....yeah, turn in zee tax cheats young Adolph!
If you've got a brain you'll not blab about such affairs, especially since what this thread is about is firearms-related (and we all know how that is viewed by the general public). Oh yeah, he "cheated" the system and it involved GUNS!!! Oh my God!!! Crucify him! To the gallows!
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 22:59
Not like that smacks of Big Brother....yeah, turn in zee tax cheats young Adolph!
If you've got a brain you'll not blab about such affairs, especially since what this thread is about is firearms-related (and we all know how that is viewed by the general public). Oh yeah, he "cheated" the system and it involved GUNS!!! Oh my God!!! Crucify him! To the gallows!
Same concept as rewards for crime stopper tips. I suppose you think crime stoppers is a Nazi started program lol. Tax evasion is a crime and it hurts all of us.
Pat
Same concept as rewards for crime stopper tips. I suppose you think crime stoppers is a Nazi started program lol. Tax evasion is a crime and it hurts all of us.
Pat
Do you sleep at night with federal and state penal code ledgers for pillows? Jeesh.
I'm gonna go rip some tags off mattresses now so you've got a hot tip.
Army Chief
08-01-13, 23:09
Check fire, gents.
The language here has migrated from dispassionate consideration of the issues to one man's opinion of the other's, and the direct address crap isn't working. Take it to the third-person, focus exclusively on the issues -- not interpretations of opinions -- or just let the whole thing go.
I'm asking, because I really don't want to have power into this and frustrate either one of you. That said, this entire page has been one long skirmish line, and it needs to end, now. There is a valid topic here, and obviously now in the other thread. Stay on topic, and demonstrate the respect you would prefer to be receiving.
This is the Big Boy rules solution, and I'm counting on you to take it.
Thanks,
AC
Check fire, gents.
The language here has migrated from dispassionate consideration of the issues to one man's opinion of the other's, and the direct address crap isn't working. Take it to the third-person, focus exclusively on the issues -- not interpretations of opinions -- or just let the whole thing go.
I'm asking, because I really don't want to have power into this and frustrate either one of you. That said, this entire page has been one long skirmish line, and it needs to end, now. There is a valid topic here, and obviously now in the other thread. Stay on topic, and demonstrate the respect you would prefer to be receiving.
This is the Big Boy rules solution, and I'm counting on you to take it.
Thanks,
AC
I'm tracking.
Alaskapopo
08-01-13, 23:19
Check fire, gents.
The language here has migrated from dispassionate consideration of the issues to one man's opinion of the other's, and the direct address crap isn't working. Take it to the third-person, focus exclusively on the issues -- not interpretations of opinions -- or just let the whole thing go.
I'm asking, because I really don't want to have power into this and frustrate either one of you. That said, this entire page has been one long skirmish line, and it needs to end, now. There is a valid topic here, and obviously now in the other thread. Stay on topic, and demonstrate the respect you would prefer to be receiving.
This is the Big Boy rules solution, and I'm counting on you to take it.
Thanks,
AC
Fair enough.
pat
Army Chief
08-01-13, 23:24
Appreciation and respect.
AC
Not going to read through the thread but here is my experience:
After Sandy Hook and before the SAFE ACT passed in NY I was at a locally owned outfitter/gun store that was never known for having a lot of evil black rifles. I avoided the more AR oriented stores at this time like the plague, but I heard a guy talking about how on the other side of the river at the store in my area that has the most "assault rifles" that the police were being forced to do traffic control because of the number of people lining up to buy AR's...
The guy seemed bummed cause he knew he wouldn't get a gun before Cuomo's big announcement...
I walked up to him and said loudly: I'll sell you mine right now, no questions asked for 2500.
He paused, thought about really really hard, and then declined.
I would have been calling Grant before I even made it home if he bit.
I could give a shit less what you think or what numbers you assumed. I have no reason to make up the story and has no reason to create one.
And here is an FYI. I did pretty decent during the "Gunpocalypse of 2013" as well.
I call poppycock on this. Since we don't have any numbers let us assume the following facts:
He took $100,000 out of his 401k.
He is in the 15% income tax bracket.
He bought all pmags (the biggest ROI item)
He bough pmags at the low of $20 even though prices went up immediately.
He sold pmags at the high of $70, which didn't last all that long.
Withdraw $100,000 from 401(k)
On a withdrawal IRS rules require 20% withholding.
So his $100,000 became cash of $80,000, immediately.
Ignoring any costs of selling his $80,000 pmags netted $280,000 when he sold them.
So at the end of the tax year his return has his normal income from working. On top of that taxes he adds NEW income this year, subject to his highest bracket:
Assume:
15% income tax on $100,000 withdrawal, $15,000 in tax.
10% penalty for withdrawing from 401K before age 59½, $10,000 in tax
15% income tax on gains, $200,000 x 15%= $30,000 in tax
So lets recap:
Revenues $280,000
Cost of goods sold $-80,000
Gross profit $200,000
cost of sales, 0.
Profit $200,000.
Income Tax on 401k withdrawal $-15,000
IRS Penalty on withdrawal $-10,000
Income tax on profit $-30,000
Net from transaction $145,000
I assumed best-case scenario with the highest return product and probably picked too low of a tax bracket. He might have avoided the 10% penalty and income tax on the withdrawal if he was able to roll the $100,000 back into his 401(k) within 60 days, but that is highly doubtful. Didn't include shipping costs to get the inventory, shipping costs to send, credit card/paypal vendor fees, fraudulent transactions, credit card interest, etc.
There is no way he tripled his $100,000 401(k), he is blowing smoke. The tax cost is just too high.
Although perhaps he now is going to be reminded by an acquaintance that when he files his taxes this year, he better have the cash for a huge, huge tax bill. He may have overlooked that. I am sure the IRS isn't going to forget.
Sorry I happen to agree with him. The income was taxed when it was earned, he paid a tax penalty for withdrawing part of his money and he paid sales tax on some of those items.
So now he should just fork over more money while the whores in D.C spend money worse than drunken sailors who haven't see dry land in 6 months. I don't think so. Some people are actually tired of the gov't sucking us dry.
An idiot who does not believe in committing tax fraud. This attitude is part of the reason we have the national debt we have today. People cheating on their taxes.
Pat
Mauser KAR98K
08-02-13, 02:30
I just can't believe a thread like this EXISTS on this forum. Gun owners are their own worst ****ing enemy. Period.
The idea of buy in hopes to sell for a profit when the next panic hits, or the next Newtown...is no better than the Communist gun-grabbing pieces of shit that have legislature ready to be dust off when another massacre happens. No. Different.
Anyone care to know how DANGEROUS these times are now. Not only with a flamming liberal socialist in the White House with enough scandals to make Bill Clinton feel comfortable, but he is getting away with it. But the danger part is all the new shooters we have that were on the fence, and now have bought their first firearm...and no ammo to train with. For people to say that they should have gotten into it sooner needs to shut up. You aren't them. They have had a lot to decide due to the liberal media making it out that all gun-owners are mass murders with a timer. We all know it is not that case, but for some they didn't know.
Others have just turned of-age to exercise their rights as well.
Unlike what the media wants us to believe that gun ownership is going down, that is total bullshit. We have seen an explosion of concealed carry requests with many of them first time gun owners.
And the dangerous part is...is that they can't get the ammo to go out and practice. I went and took the "advanced class" at my local gun shop/local range has to offer, which for Tennessee standards is to actually have your weapon holstered LOADED. The carry permit course has all weapons unloaded in the holster, and to have no one draw with a loaded firearm to do the qualifying course. They fire 50 rounds with a 70% qualifying minimum at 3-5-7 yards, go waste over a $100 bucks and six hours of their lives at the DMV, get the background check done with fingerprints, and they are now permitted to be gun-totters. Because with the amount of training by the States new guidelines, that is all they are. My "advanced class" was just to draw at 3 yards, shoot at the hip with two rounds, back up, fire two more, move sideways, fire two more at the target. We then did one handed shooting and rear contact shooting.
That was it. Some 300 rounds were needed. 300 rounds where we are locally is $120 if you shoot 9mm, more if you are running a .40S&W pistol. And we all know that 50 rounds to go to the range once a week, or two weeks, or once a month, is not enough. Thanks to the panic, and the price gougers and hoarders that want to resale to make a profit, they are NOT HELPING in the safe exercise of people's liberties, and our fight to preserve our liberties.
Listen to yourselves. You are banking on another shooting, another democrat communist to ascend to the throne, the destruction of our liberty to shoot, hunt, do 3-gun, to protect ourselves as we see fit in order to score cash. We should be buying ammo and stocking it for when there is another panic, the pain won't be so bad.
Did I not prepare. For this, I am not sure of anyone who wasn't prepared in some matter shape or form. I did not particapte in '08 as I was an OTR trucker who barley had four days of home time. I was not here to see the bad news of Obama and the buying up of guns and ammo and gear. I heard it, but it did not directly affect me. Fast forward two years ago, I was play catch up on modern shooting techniques after 5 years from any serious trigger pulling. I finally last September got to do a Carbine Course, a good one, that I normally can't find here in TN with a reputable instructor that isn't James Yeager. I also got into 3-gun and IDPA.
I was also convinced Obama wasn't going to make it. When he did, I bought up a lot of parts and began building the ARs I wanted and needed because I took his word that he was going to do another AWB. Ammo, I could get, and at the time, I still had a fairly good supply for a moderate shooter.
Too bad for me during the panic I became more than a moderate shooter. Now I can't even find reloading components to even practice for conceal carry, much less for sport, or even practice the drills I had spent $500 to learn last year. Dry firing and dry mag changes only go so far.
So for those here that are banking on the lose of liberty, even the threat of the lose of liberty, or the next massacre...You are no better than Feinstien. You are not better than Bill Ruger. Your greed in exchange for my liberty to protect myself, my recreation, and for what I believe is ****ing inexcusable! If our liberties are shut away because of betting to turn a quick profit on the things we love...I will have nothing but disdain.
MASTER CHIEF! LOCK THIS PATHETIC THREAD!!!
Moose-Knuckle
08-02-13, 03:17
I'm gonna go rip some tags off mattresses now so you've got a hot tip.
:lol:
So much win right there! :cool:
Mauser,
I understand your thoughts, but there are plenty of last minute pattys' who didn't know what the 2nd Amendment was until the devil was on their doorstep.
Alot of those who bought during the panic weren't true gun owners. They were people who lived in Fantasia while the Disney kingdom was under siege.
Sorry, but those who had the money and were not otherwise prohibited who waited to buy aren't going to get sympathy from me.
The idea of buy in hopes to sell for a profit when the next panic hits, or the next Newtown...is no better than the Communist gun-grabbing pieces of shit that have legislature ready to be dust off when another massacre happens. No. Different.
The idea that some contrived moral obligation determines when I can or can't sell my private property at market value smells like...wait for it... communism... and is no better than the wealth redistribution plans that the communist gun-grabbing pieces of shit telling us what to think and do and think on behalf of 'the children', every time a massacre happens. No. Different.
Army Chief
08-02-13, 07:45
Have no special desire or need to see this one sealed up, save to preserve some unity in the family here. It seems to me that the topic has been given all due consideration, and then some by now, but you are free to develop it further, should that be your wish.
Once we've heard from a few more folks in favor of closure, we can do that for you, too ... with the other obvious COA being a forced-shutdown if this continues to keep good men on edge and at odds with each other. Not censorship, in any case; just attending to some basic housekeeping. Will try to leave it up to you guys, but from where I sit, I'm just not sure what else can or need be said on this one.
Question asked. Answers given. Rebuttals posted. Debates permitted. Rounds compete.
AD
Army Chief
08-02-13, 08:35
MASTER CHIEF! LOCK THIS PATHETIC THREAD!!!
A couple of additional random thoughts over coffee ...
Ok, this always cracks me up (above). The Army has no such rank, of course, and although that is precisely the right description for the grade of CW5, we only use it in jest -- and then, rarely. Normally when libations are involved. Not sure why it is so funny to me, but it just is. Maybe it's because a lot of the old aviation warrant officers from the Viet Nam era didn't like to be called "Chief" in the first place, since that is how they referred to their enlisted crew dogs. Having grown up in infantry and airborne units, I recognize it more as a slang term of address that Joes apply with respect to officers that started off wearing hard stripes. No charge for this salient piece of insider knowledge, by the way. ;)
//BREAK//
I did have an epiphany of sorts where these back-and-forth jousting sessions are concerned, though, and some of you might want to lock this away for future reference. Take a look at any thread that goes sideways, and it seems the one common denominator you will notice is that things begin to come off of the rails when we move from this ...
I don't see how Issue A is really related to Issue B ...
To this ...
You seem to think that ...
The biggest difference between these two statements being the use of the word "you;" hence the bolding. Think about it: as soon as that particular word appears, the whole nature of the discussion changes, because now it is a personal assessment, a direct engagement (good or bad) and quite possibly a challenge. At the very least, we've moved from considering something that may be fairly abstract, to making presumptions about how the other guy feels about it.
Just something to put in your kit bag as we go along. If you're struggling to figure out why we keep seeing the same old patterns of dissent, or perhaps all-too-often find yourself in the middle of a heated debate that you never intended to become that way, look for the word "you." Nine times out of ten, I'll bet you will find it there, and when you do, that it will have served as the triggering mechanism for all of the mayhem which followed.
Watch out for how we find ourselves using this word, boys, and tell your friends. When things are heating up, just make a mental note that, whatever comes next, it isn't going to include the word "you." We will always have our running gun battles, but I think that this one small sight adjustment could very well help a lot of good guys avoid bad situations. Seems so simple. Let's try to give it a shot.
Thanks,
AC
P.S. Yeah, it's Espresso. Double shot.
Take a look at any thread that goes sideways, and it seems the one common denominator you will notice is that things begin to come off of the rails when...
Interesting... I've always noticed it's usually when a particular individual joins the conversation is when things go sideways.
Watch out for how we find ourselves using this word, boys, and tell your friends. When things are heating up, just make a mental note that, whatever comes next, it isn't going to include the word "you."
Simple solution, include the word "you" in the new filter. :D
Sent via Tapatalk
Ooh, a tax thread on a gun forum! How exciting! :jester:
So when you (the common peasant) buys a gun or ammo, 11% FET was ALREADY PAID on the item by the Manufacturer who in turn passed that cost onto you. This means that the Govt already got a large chunk of the profits on said items. If I was a NON-GUN DEALER, would I give them any more money on an item I sold? No (as a fair tax has ALREADY been paid).
Some appear to believe that buying things and then selling them later (for a profit) is a bad thing. Hmmm. Don't we all buy land, homes, stocks, precious metals, etc with the hopes of them going up in value???? Uhm, yes we do. Is this profiteering? Is this socially acceptable? Yes, it is.
G&R Tactical was started because I had a bad gun/gear/ammo/training habit. I simply could not afford to keep up with this stuff on my salary. In the late 90's early 2000's, gun forums were the wild west for buying and selling. I would find a good deal on a forum and then turn around and sell it on Ebay or on another forum. I was so good at doing this that I was making several hundred dollars a month with little effort. My lovely wife made the comment that we should start a home based business. The starting of this business eventually led to to my wife and I quitting two high paying .Gov jobs and living off of our newly formed company. This created two new openings in the job market and increased taxes for the Govt.
Point is, never look down on people that are trying to lift themselves by making a some extra money (as you just never know where it will lead). ;)
C4
Army Chief
08-02-13, 09:14
Interesting... I've always noticed it's usually when a particular individual joins the conversation is when things go sideways.
Play nice.
Simple solution, include the word "you" in the new filter. :D
Please PM me for my mailing address, and overnight your balls to me so I can kick them -- hard -- and then get them right back to you by mid-week. Thanks. ;)
AC
I don't think its a bad idea to pile up some pmags, 5.56, 9, 45, 308, bolt carrier groups, uppers, etc for the next panic. I sold a bcm bcg on an auction for $510 shortly after the panic. There are always procrastinators who would rather spend their money on a boat, luxury car, golf clubs, etc but buying guns is always on the back burner. Way back. They are the guys who can afford to spend 3X the price when shit goes sideways. I don't feel even a little bad for them. I have a buddy who built 3 off road trucks, bought a toy hauler, 3 dirt bikes, a quad, and is now building a rat rod, but still doesn't have a complete AR. During the panic he scrambled to buy an upper but couldn't find one. Now the panic is mostly dead and hes back to hot rods. When the time comes that he asks me to sell him one of my spares, I won't feel bad about bending him over, if I sell him one at all. Its a free market.
Army Chief
08-02-13, 09:44
I've been hemmed-up a bit over the whole aspect of "screwing your buddies" in the interest of the gun-owning community at large, but I suppose you're right.
If you were a serious drinker of Maker's Mark who failed to stock up when the company announced that they were going to cut the blend down from full-strength (90 Proof) to keep up with demand earlier this year, then I doubt anyone was going to give you a break on their stash of high-test stuff once the watered-down version became the only thing available.
In the end, I believe that Maker's Mark backed away from making the proposed change at all, but this would have been a comparable case in some ways. Market forces and availability don't really respond much to kind sentiments, and when push comes to shove, I guess a more dispassionate view is the reasonable one.
AC
brickboy240
08-02-13, 10:13
Wow...what a mess this turned in to! LOL
Seriously, some here either do not understand a free market or SAY they are for a free market...but really are not for it at all.
Thats ok....many will waive the flag, tell us they are for freedom but they would vote for candidates that would limit people's choices, ban certain books, movies or want us to live in a theocracy. They are not REALLY for freedom but tyrants of a different stripe than those of, say, Feinstein or Bloomberg. Yes...there are right wing tyrants too.
No..this does NOT make me "as bad as Feinstein" because I want to profit from the sale of one or a few rifles during the next panic. I live in Texas and we have been trying like mad to NOT have these types elected or bans passed. We have tried to convince those in the blue and purple states but if the majority is not going to listen...we might as well make some money while we can. Capitalism is a hard thing for some to swallow.
Another point...no this is NOT "screwing your buddies" at all. Most of my "buddies" have learned their lessons on the gun buying panics and stocked up. So have most smart people around here. The people I might (yes might) screw over would be those that are lazy or poor planners. It is not my fault that some did not plan. Hell, it is not as if by 2016, you have had PLENTY of warning signs! The other buyers are probably wealthy people and they can swing it, so who cares? Also..nobody is forcing you or anyone to buy my extra 6920 during the next panic - you do so on your own accord.
Also, consider the fact that I am NOT buying during a shortage, but right now....while Wal Mart has the Colt 6920 for 1100 bucks. That is not putting undue pressure on the gun market at a bad time. Big difference from the post panic hoarders, if you ask me.
It is sad that some here have such a problem with a truly free market, making money or have gone into personal attacks. If we were talking about cars, appliances or bicycles...nobody would turn their noses up at making a profit...would they?
You can either use the free market to your own advantage or be a victim of it. Your choice.
-brickboy240
I have no doubt you did very well in the Gunpocalypse of 2013, but that is a whole lot different than your acquaintance making a claim that "cashing in my 401 was such a great financial move! Woot! Woot!."
I could give a shit less what you think or what numbers you assumed. I have no reason to make up the story and has no reason to create one.
Of course people make up stories, often for their own pride. So yes, he has a reason to tell you stories. Look how impressed you are with his story. Reminds me of guys and their "fish was this big" stories.
Ever ask someone how successful they are with their investments? They talk endlessly about their one big winner stock pick... and completely forget about the 9 dogs they made the wrong call on. You wouldn't believe what you learn about about people and their tendency to brag. When you see a guy's tax return they can't hide the truth.
When someone tells me they cashed out their 401k early and paid all of those penalties and taxes and "made so much money"... DOUBT IT, immediately. I am just saying realize when you are hearing a "the fish I caught was this big" story.
That is great that he was able to make a bold move and buy low, sell high. Good for him. Recognize the BS though.
brickboy240
08-02-13, 14:17
ummm...ok
If you think his 401 cashing in story is BS....why not just ignore it?
Why get all worked up over a story about someone you don't know, nor has any impact on your life?
I see stories on here all the time that I find highly unlikely...still...I don't de-rail someone's thread, trying to beat them down about it.
Take a deep breath and walk away if you think it is BS....seriously...not worth getting worked up over.
Frankly...I don't care what others do with their 401ks...it is none of my business.
-brickboy240
So for those here that are banking on the lose of liberty, even the threat of the lose of liberty, or the next massacre...You are no better than Feinstien. You are not better than Bill Ruger. Your greed in exchange for my liberty to protect myself, my recreation, and for what I believe is ****ing inexcusable! If our liberties are shut away because of betting to turn a quick profit on the things we love...I will have nothing but disdain.
MASTER CHIEF! LOCK THIS PATHETIC THREAD!!!
So let me see if I have this straight.
Those who see guns as an investment that "appreciates" for whatever reason are liberty hating shit stains no better than Pelosi and Feinstein?
Does that mean those who nickel and dime small dealers out of business are extra pro second amendment?
The ONLY way you suggestion would be accurate is if speculators and investors were VOTING FOR firearms restrictions which would increase the value of their investments.
And I don't know too many gun people who are doing that. I do know more than a few who think dealers shouldn't be able to make $25 above dealer price on ANY firearm just because they have an internet connection or a copy of shotgun news.
People who sell high in times of demand are no better or worse than people who will only pay bottom dollar when the economy is good and everyone is fully stocked.
Suggesting that those who desire to sell when the market is favorable to the seller are somehow jumping on board the "ban our guns please" bandwagon is one of the most absurd things I've read on this forum.
I believe the bottom line here is that many frown upon a member of our community specifically strategizing to sell firearms back into the community at an inflated price because the perceived need for the firearm has increased due to circumstances beyond our control. In fact many would see such actions as enhancing an already bad situation for personal gain.
It can go either way but some here believe there is no such thing as price gouging no matter what the circumstance.
Army Chief
08-02-13, 17:01
Where is the love? What I'd like to see is for some guys to buy a case of PMAGs (windowed, 30-round, black, if you please) and then sell them to me for half of what they just paid. Those are the kinds of deals that I usually end up giving folks. I'm a lousy businessman. ;)
AC
I believe the bottom line here is that many frown upon a member of our community specifically strategizing to sell firearms back into the community at an inflated price because the perceived need for the firearm has increased due to circumstances beyond our control. In fact many would see such actions as enhancing an already bad situation for personal gain.
It can go either way but some here believe there is no such thing as price gouging no matter what the circumstance.
Does anyone frown upon the guys who wait till the last hour of the last day of the gun show to see if they can beat the dealer down to within $10 of his dealer price "so he doesn't have to pack it up" and then brag to everyone about how he got over on the dealer and paid almost nothing at all in terms of markup?
I used to see that all the time at gunshows, but I didn't see the gun community frowning too much about it
Where is the love? What I'd like to see is for some guys to buy a case of PMAGs (windowed, 30-round, black, if you please) and then sell them to me for half of what they just paid. Those are the kinds of deals that I usually end up giving folks. I'm a lousy businessman. ;)
AC
People used to encourage me to do group buys like that. You know...sell below cost but make it up in volume.
Does anyone frown upon the guys who wait till the last hour of the last day of the gun show to see if they can beat the dealer down to within $10 of his dealer price "so he doesn't have to pack it up" and then brag to everyone about how he got over on the dealer and paid almost nothing at all in terms of markup?
I used to see that all the time at gunshows, but I didn't see the gun community frowning too much about it
I fully understand what you mean and don't necessarily disagree, but then again if you think there's nothing at all to what I said let's try this:
If I buy up as much silver as I can in hopes of selling for a profit to me that is different than buying up emergency food rations to sell them to my desperate neighbors in the event of a disaster. The silver I'll take money for free of guilt however the extra food I'd be more likely to give to those who really need it. To me something like a firearm isn't on the level of the food, but it's closer to it than it is the silver.
Army Chief
08-02-13, 17:30
I fully understand what you mean and don't necessarily disagree, but then again if you think there's nothing at all to what I said let's try this:
If I buy up as much silver as I can in hopes of selling for a profit to me that is different than buying up emergency food rations to sell them to my desperate neighbors in the event of a disaster. The silver I'll take money for free of guilt however the extra food I'd be more likely to give to those who really need it. To me something like a firearm isn't on the level of the food, but it's closer to it than it is the silver.
Not sure why I didn't manage to express it in quite this way, but this is pretty much were I stand, as well.
AC
Not sure why I didn't manage to express it in quite this way, but this is pretty much were I stand, as well.
AC
It's the medicine. You'll be back to normal soon enough.
I fully understand what you mean and don't necessarily disagree, but then again if you think there's nothing at all to what I said let's try this:
If I buy up as much silver as I can in hopes of selling for a profit to me that is different than buying up emergency food rations to sell them to my desperate neighbors in the event of a disaster. The silver I'll take money for free of guilt however the extra food I'd be more likely to give to those who really need it. To me something like a firearm isn't on the level of the food, but it's closer to it than it is the silver.
Unless of course you are the guy selling emergency food supplies and all year long you barely eek out an honest living just getting by because it's hard to compete with the internet and most people don't see the need to buy "emergency food supplies" because they think preppers are those silly people on television..
And then something happens and emergency food supplies are now in high demand and you finally have the option to offset all the slow times and provide for yourself and your family and those profits will be a means to provide for your own "emergency food supplies" now that an actual situation exists.
Since 2004 I have told everyone, buy as if they were going to ban EVERYTHING next week. This wasn't a scare tactic, it's what I was doing myself to the best of my ability with the income I had which has been dropping due to a bad economy and trying to compete with internet giants.
So when something like Sandy Hook happens and all the "cheap price distributors" are sold out and I happen to be sitting on my personal stash of Pmags, if I decide to let a few go to make some money in a favorable market, I am not going to give them away.
After all I've been telling people to buy for almost 10 years now.
Mauser KAR98K
08-02-13, 18:55
Wow...what a mess this turned in to! LOL
Seriously, some here either do not understand a free market or SAY they are for a free market...but really are not for it at all.
Thats ok....many will waive the flag, tell us they are for freedom but they would vote for candidates that would limit people's choices, ban certain books, movies or want us to live in a theocracy. They are not REALLY for freedom but tyrants of a different stripe than those of, say, Feinstein or Bloomberg. Yes...there are right wing tyrants too.
No..this does NOT make me "as bad as Feinstein" because I want to profit from the sale of one or a few rifles during the next panic. I live in Texas and we have been trying like mad to NOT have these types elected or bans passed. We have tried to convince those in the blue and purple states but if the majority is not going to listen...we might as well make some money while we can. Capitalism is a hard thing for some to swallow.
Another point...no this is NOT "screwing your buddies" at all. Most of my "buddies" have learned their lessons on the gun buying panics and stocked up. So have most smart people around here. The people I might (yes might) screw over would be those that are lazy or poor planners. It is not my fault that some did not plan. Hell, it is not as if by 2016, you have had PLENTY of warning signs! The other buyers are probably wealthy people and they can swing it, so who cares? Also..nobody is forcing you or anyone to buy my extra 6920 during the next panic - you do so on your own accord.
Also, consider the fact that I am NOT buying during a shortage, but right now....while Wal Mart has the Colt 6920 for 1100 bucks. That is not putting undue pressure on the gun market at a bad time. Big difference from the post panic hoarders, if you ask me.
It is sad that some here have such a problem with a truly free market, making money or have gone into personal attacks. If we were talking about cars, appliances or bicycles...nobody would turn their noses up at making a profit...would they?
You can either use the free market to your own advantage or be a victim of it. Your choice.
-brickboy240
I don't have a problem with free markets. I just have a problem when those in our culture, our ilk, think that buying up firearms and ammo in order to sell when another "Crisis" happens for those for what ever reasons are ill prepared (bad economy, bad job, in the U.S. military, etc.) that they can score a quick buck over the possibility of loosing their rights and/or in the wake of a mass shooting that would ramp up that threat. This is partly of what this thread is betting on and I find it disgusting that people are betting on someone's child to be murdered with their class mates by some lone nut job and having the liberal left out calling for an all out ban before the bodies are cold. Remember that? We were all up in arms about that. Yet here we are, arguing before the next panic hits should we buy low now and sell because of some nut job's rampage.
With the election of Obama, and possibly Hilliary, I can see this type of "gouging", but after a mass murdering spree and the political fight to keep our rights...no. I will not participate.
So let me see if I have this straight.
Those who see guns as an investment that "appreciates" for whatever reason are liberty hating shit stains no better than Pelosi and Feinstein?
Does that mean those who nickel and dime small dealers out of business are extra pro second amendment?
The ONLY way you suggestion would be accurate is if speculators and investors were VOTING FOR firearms restrictions which would increase the value of their investments.
And I don't know too many gun people who are doing that. I do know more than a few who think dealers shouldn't be able to make $25 above dealer price on ANY firearm just because they have an internet connection or a copy of shotgun news.
People who sell high in times of demand are no better or worse than people who will only pay bottom dollar when the economy is good and everyone is fully stocked.
Suggesting that those who desire to sell when the market is favorable to the seller are somehow jumping on board the "ban our guns please" bandwagon is one of the most absurd things I've read on this forum.
I guess I am not one of those who looks at them as investments, except for new shooters and gun owners that can add to our numbers in fighting to preserve our liberties. A large part of my inventory are considered tool. Tools to hunt, tools defend my property and family, tools to keep tyranny in check, tools to protect this country, and tools to help me relieve stress and lower my blood pressure. If I am going to invest, I am going to put it stocks with firearm companies, not waiting for the next Newtown, or the next legal fight. Money would be going to campaigns and political action groups.
On the second point: why I said Bill Ruger. He did that in the '94 assault weapons ban. And what about those with NFA Class III full-autos. I'm sure they would secretly lobby against lifting the ban because their investments would dry up.
Stery, I agree with you on a ton of things, and I take a lot of your postings to bank at times. But this I cannot morally and patriotically agree with.
Where is the love? What I'd like to see is for some guys to buy a case of PMAGs (windowed, 30-round, black, if you please) and then sell them to me for half of what they just paid. Those are the kinds of deals that I usually end up giving folks. I'm a lousy businessman. ;)
AC
I was doing just this to friends and family during the panic. Many of whom were not gun owners, or they just started out because of fiances and their outlook. A lot of people have awaken to the fact that their government is out of control, and so is the spending, and they are buying firearms to invest in a bad future if or when it all comes due. The idea that we should punish them double is a bad idea if we want them to stay the course. We should be embracing them and welcoming them, not looking at them as prey to make a quick buck when "they should have known better."
Unless of course you are the guy selling emergency food supplies and all year long you barely eek out an honest living just getting by because it's hard to compete with the internet and most people don't see the need to buy "emergency food supplies" because they think preppers are those silly people on television..
And then something happens and emergency food supplies are now in high demand and you finally have the option to offset all the slow times and provide for yourself and your family and those profits will be a means to provide for your own "emergency food supplies" now that an actual situation exists.
Since 2004 I have told everyone, buy as if they were going to ban EVERYTHING next week. This wasn't a scare tactic, it's what I was doing myself to the best of my ability with the income I had which has been dropping due to a bad economy and trying to compete with internet giants.
So when something like Sandy Hook happens and all the "cheap price distributors" are sold out and I happen to be sitting on my personal stash of Pmags, if I decide to let a few go to make some money in a favorable market, I am not going to give them away.
After all I've been telling people to buy for almost 10 years now.
And how many of them are long time gun owners?
Some people are under the guise that the AWB is still in effect (ran into a few this year). Others were dealing with the stigma the media has portrayed gun owners and were not sure if they wanted to be in that group. I think THIS panic will show that the vast majority of people who bought firearms were actually first time gun owners. I have meet and coached a lot of new gun owners in the past seven months. The LGS I hang out at has seen a major uptick in new shooters going for their permits.
We are talking about free market, here is something to think about: the price of ammo, and the price of gas.
Gas is on its way up yet again. back in the winter and last summer, prices were spiking for no apparent reason. We had a large supply and demand was either the same or it was low. Yet, gas not not fallen below $2.50 or even lower, and it will never will again. Partly because of the demand around the world is spiking, but also that the oil industry knows that Americans will complain about high gas prices, but will still keep buying it at the inflated rates.
The same is happening with ammo. I have not been able to find a box of 115gr FMJ 9mm at pre-panic prices. And I surmise we will never see that again. The distributors now know that gun owners will pay $125 for a bulk pack of .22LR, they can mark up the price 50% below that and people will buy. My last ammo box of 9mm blazer brass ran me $22 with tax. Walmart has jumped up their prices.
Granted, metal commonalities have gone up, but the inflated prices we are see are due to demand, and what ammo, and mostly the distributors, know now what the tipping point is for ammo. Even if demand goes down, the prices I am sure will still be inflated.
Firearm owners are their own worst enemy.
Army Chief: Sorry about the Master Chief bit...the Navy in me took over.:p
For those of you that are butt hurt over guys wanting to make a buck on guns during the next crisis, please enlighten me on a few things.
When you buy a pair of Nike shoes, do you bitch about the price? After all, some poor Chinese kid made them for a bowl of rice & Nike's overhead in those pair of shoes is probably 10% of what you paid.
When you get an $8 salad at your favorite restaurant, do you bitch about the fact that it cost them $0.40 to make you that salad?
Do you work for just enough money to pay your bills & cover the bare necessities or do you make more than just the bare minimum? Do you REALLY need that savings account, a boat, an RV, an oversized TV, a vacation home, a retirement, that week long vacation, a gun safe full of guns, or that deluxe vibrator for the wife? Instead of asking for a raise, instead why don't you go tell your boss that he's paying you too much & take less pay?
Nobody in our community WANTS a gun ban. But there are dumb asses out there that know bad shit is coming, yet still don't have their priorities in order as far as guns go. They are the same people who do nothing to contribute to our cause. More than likely, if they aren't already on board via owning guns, they aren't donating to the NRA & other 2A org's. They aren't writing their politicians. The 2A is not a priority to them. The only reason they want to buy guns during a panic is because they fear they may not be able to tomorrow. Those guys deserve to pay high prices for what they didn't have the common sense to prepare for years ago. Since Clinton made the "Assault Weapon" ban in 94, or for the youngsters, when it looked as if Obama may win the presidency in late 2007, everyone should have been on board. If not, lube up & BEND OVER! I won't lose a seconds worth of sleep over you paying 3X during a crisis.
Unless of course you are the guy selling emergency food supplies and all year long you barely eek out an honest living just getting by because it's hard to compete with the internet and most people don't see the need to buy "emergency food supplies" because they think preppers are those silly people on television..
And then something happens and emergency food supplies are now in high demand and you finally have the option to offset all the slow times and provide for yourself and your family and those profits will be a means to provide for your own "emergency food supplies" now that an actual situation exists.
This is a fair example but maybe not exactly what it is I think we're talking about overall. If a gun dealer decided to stock up on inventory because he knew it might be hard to come by at that price later then he makes a wise business decision.
If a gun owner thinks the same and is simply looking to exploit the situation for profit then he is needlessly creating another financial link in the chain and depleting inventory for personal gain. I know this is indeed a gray area but for me my gut identifies the subtle yet important distinctions.
Remember this is a firearm forum and many of us see them as not just a hobby but also a critical tool for personal protection. With that you'll see less tolerance for deliberate attempted price manipulations just because one of us can. We think "Hey, how would you feel if I banked on exploiting your needs as a fellow firearm owner in an emergency?"
Also consider buying up 1000 gallons of gas because you know a hurricane is coming. Can you help others in need and make $2 per gallon on your investment ($2,000 profit) without being sinister? Sure and that's good for everyone. But if you charge an extra $5 or $10 just because you can that makes a big difference.
This is a fair example but maybe not exactly what it is I think we're talking about overall. If a gun dealer decided to stock up on inventory because he knew it might be hard to come by at that price later then he makes a wise business decision.
If a gun owner thinks the same and is simply looking to exploit the situation for profit then he is needlessly creating another financial link in the chain and depleting inventory for personal gain. I know this is indeed a gray area but for me my gut identifies the subtle yet important distinctions.
Remember this is a firearm forum and many of us see them as not just a hobby but also a critical tool for personal protection. With that you'll see less tolerance for deliberate attempted price manipulations just because one of us can. We think "Hey, how would you feel if I banked on exploiting your needs as a fellow firearm owner in an emergency?"
Also consider buying up 1000 gallons of gas because you know a hurricane is coming. Can you help others in need and make $2 per gallon on your investment ($2,000 profit) without being sinister? Sure and that's good for everyone. But if you charge an extra $5 or $10 just because you can that makes a big difference.
Because we are all on our own and nobody gives us anything, regardless of if it is emergency food supplies, firearms, pmags, gasoline or being the one guy who can make ice after a hurricane, if that is how you keep yourself alive and feed your family nobody who isn't paying your mortgage can fault you for being the one guy lucky or prepared enough to benefit from your luck or preparations.
Now if somebody with a ton of money already brings a generator and an ice maker to FL after a hurricane and starts selling ice for $10 a bag that will probably be looked down upon by many. But what if a near homeless guy takes all his money to procure a generator and an ice maker and sells bags for $10 and manages to escape his impoverished life with one "right time/right place" use of every dime he had? Is he still a bad guy or are they both equally bad?
And if one guy is worse than the other then isn't this just resentment of those who have money and power gaining even more money or power at our expense?
When I looked at $100 pmags to me it was no different than seeing gold fluctuate by $100 per ounce. It's essentially a commodity. Just because we "need it" doesn't make us entitled to it, otherwise grocery stores would be forced to feed the homeless and hungry rather than be a profitable business.
If you are lucky you have food, clothing and shelter. if you are very lucky you have food, a generator and gasoline following a hurricane in FL. And I've been there both ways, with and without a generator and with and without a "no problem" supply of food. I learned just how important such things can be and did what I could so that I would be lucky enough to have a generator and emergency food supplies.
Now our state does have "price gouging" laws for things like gasoline. But to be honest, it's not like guns and magazines where nobody buys anything from you for months and then suddenly they need gasoline. And I suspect if dealers were selling dozens of Pmags every day for the last 8 years they would probably be less inclined to mark them up during a panic buy. In fact we saw a few of the bigger guys do "asshole proof" Pmag deals, of course they seem to be doing well enough to afford some charity.
But that shouldn't be expected and we shouldn't condemn those who sold pmags for $100. What if the ban actually happened? They'd have taken a loss. Even though I was very hopeful that we'd defeat the anti gun efforts, and even though I had quite a few Pmags, I still had to think long an hard about letting them go and I didn't get anything close to what some people were getting. But the $45 per mag I managed did help me offset some of the economic hardships my business has sustained in the last few years.
And do you know what I did with a lot of that money? I put some of it aside and bought more Pmags for my personal stash. My goal is to comfortably have more Pmags than I will ever need. If we never get a ban and they are worth no more than $10-15 in the next decade I'm fine with that. There will come a time when I will no longer need them and like my army men will somehow find something suitable to do with them.
And if in 20 years, because of ridiculous legislation, they are easily worth $100 or more each I'll make the best of that situation. After all it's not like all of us have a 401k, meaningful social security or anything else waiting for us.
I guess I am not one of those who looks at them as investments, except for new shooters and gun owners that can add to our numbers in fighting to preserve our liberties. A large part of my inventory are considered tool. Tools to hunt, tools defend my property and family, tools to keep tyranny in check, tools to protect this country, and tools to help me relieve stress and lower my blood pressure. If I am going to invest, I am going to put it stocks with firearm companies, not waiting for the next Newtown, or the next legal fight. Money would be going to campaigns and political action groups.
Investments don't necessarily mean money. Having guns and ammo prior to an economic collapse is an investment. But there will come a day when I just can't shoot anymore, and they will have to go to someone and I hope that I can use that opportunity to provide for myself.
On the second point: why I said Bill Ruger. He did that in the '94 assault weapons ban. And what about those with NFA Class III full-autos. I'm sure they would secretly lobby against lifting the ban because their investments would dry up.
Stery, I agree with you on a ton of things, and I take a lot of your postings to bank at times. But this I cannot morally and patriotically agree with.
Bill Ruger is a fair criticism as he supported anti gun legislation. But at the same time he was choosing to lose a market as he didn't want to sell certain firearms to private individuals.
As for NFA owners, I have enough Form 3s and 4s to wallpaper my office. I've constantly advocated against striking the sporter clause which serves as a basis for the 68 imported machine gun ban, the 86 domestic machine gun ban and the 89 import ban.
All of my "prebans" and MGs would mostly become used guns with a small collectors market devoted to them. They'd be like Green Label Colt SP1 carbines. Collectible but not worth too much more than a new in the box 6920.
I'd gladly take that hit for the opportunity to buy NEW factory MP5s, G36s, etc.
And how many of them are long time gun owners?
Some people are under the guise that the AWB is still in effect (ran into a few this year). Others were dealing with the stigma the media has portrayed gun owners and were not sure if they wanted to be in that group. I think THIS panic will show that the vast majority of people who bought firearms were actually first time gun owners. I have meet and coached a lot of new gun owners in the past seven months. The LGS I hang out at has seen a major uptick in new shooters going for their permits.
We are talking about free market, here is something to think about: the price of ammo, and the price of gas.
Gas is on its way up yet again. back in the winter and last summer, prices were spiking for no apparent reason. We had a large supply and demand was either the same or it was low. Yet, gas not not fallen below $2.50 or even lower, and it will never will again. Partly because of the demand around the world is spiking, but also that the oil industry knows that Americans will complain about high gas prices, but will still keep buying it at the inflated rates.
The same is happening with ammo. I have not been able to find a box of 115gr FMJ 9mm at pre-panic prices. And I surmise we will never see that again. The distributors now know that gun owners will pay $125 for a bulk pack of .22LR, they can mark up the price 50% below that and people will buy. My last ammo box of 9mm blazer brass ran me $22 with tax. Walmart has jumped up their prices.
Granted, metal commonalities have gone up, but the inflated prices we are see are due to demand, and what ammo, and mostly the distributors, know now what the tipping point is for ammo. Even if demand goes down, the prices I am sure will still be inflated.
Firearm owners are their own worst enemy.
I really should have bought gold when it was at it's lowest point before it went crazy. But I didn't. I don't get mad at the guys who did and then sold it for top dollar.
Because of the economy there were some screaming deals out there in the last 5 years that I simply couldn't afford to get in on. So like a lot of people I missed the boat. I don't get pissed that those same guns now cost 4-5 times as much because parts kits are GONE.
I did what I could, as best I could and I was lucky enough to get some nice stuff regardless.
If you were too young, if you didn't know the ban was over, if you didn't know to buy a SGL21 when they were $400 because they couldn't possibly be that cheap forever then welcome to the party. All of us have missed the boat on this or that. If I could have been legally able to buy a M16 in high school I had the money. But I missed.
That is life. It really isn't anyones fault. Valuable things generally go one direction price wise. Just be glad you didn't go deep into beanie babies during the 80s. Some people did.
Moose-Knuckle
08-03-13, 02:53
If you were too young, if you didn't know the ban was over, if you didn't know to buy a SGL21 when they were $400 because they couldn't possibly be that cheap forever then welcome to the party. All of us have missed the boat on this or that. If I could have been legally able to buy a M16 in high school I had the money. But I missed.
I was only 10 when Bush uno signed the import ban . . . I still remember the SGN ads from back then and weep if only I had been older and had some coin. I would love to have one of every imported "pre-ban" Kalashnikov variant.
Just be glad you didn't go deep into beanie babies during the 80s. Some people did.
Yeah, about that . . . cue P.T. Barnum.
After the Great Beanie Baby Bubble Burst of 1999, Beanie investors were left with nothing. This is their story.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/how-much-beanie-babies-were-predicted-to-be-worth-vs-how-muc
Family Ruined By $100K Beanie Babies 'Investment'
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/beanie-babies-mania-ends-bankruptcy/story?id=19785126
Yeah, about that . . . cue P.T. Barnum.
After the Great Beanie Baby Bubble Burst of 1999, Beanie investors were left with nothing. This is their story.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/how-much-beanie-babies-were-predicted-to-be-worth-vs-how-muc
Family Ruined By $100K Beanie Babies 'Investment'
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/beanie-babies-mania-ends-bankruptcy/story?id=19785126
Wow, I thought that went all the way back to the 80s. The projected 2008 prices are hilarious.
What's amazing to me is when I see rare beer cans actually sell in the hundreds of dollars.
Eurodriver
08-03-13, 16:12
Wow, I thought that went all the way back to the 80s. The projected 2008 prices are hilarious.
What's amazing to me is when I see rare beer cans actually sell in the hundreds of dollars.
Its not hilarious. Its real. I was younger in 1997 and my family was poor but I vividly remember my mom collecting beanie babies thinking they were going to be worth $$$ in the future.
She didn't dump serious cash, or even buy very many (we didn't have enough money) but she was totally swept into it.
Its not funny. Its sad.
Its not hilarious. Its real. I was younger in 1997 and my family was poor but I vividly remember my mom collecting beanie babies thinking they were going to be worth $$$ in the future.
She didn't dump serious cash, or even buy very many (we didn't have enough money) but she was totally swept into it.
Its not funny. Its sad.
So long as you only spend "expendable cash" it's no big deal.
I have a beer can collection, a full set of first issue star wars comic books, star wars trading cards series 1 and series 2, MAD paperbacks and a shit ton of other stuff I assumed would be rare and valuable if I just kept it long enough. After all I grew up with warnings from my father about how much his comic books would be worth today if his mother hadn't thrown them away.
Today they are all worth about .99 each on ebay if you are lucky. Fortunately for me, and your mom, I didn't put a lot of money into them.
There will always be "zero value" collectibles that catch on like wild fire (thanks to idiots and the media who reports the actions of idiots) and every generation has had them. My grandmother had a kitchen full of crap from the 1940s that 50 years later literally wasn't worth throwing away because of landfill costs in the town.
I eventually learned that junk isn't worth money, even if it was junk that was 60 years old. And the "pickers craze" that's going on right now, don't be surprised if in 20 years all that "pickers gold" is just a collection of old bicycles, tavern signs and other shit nobody will give you 10% of what you paid for it.
Generally the things that are worth money were valuable when they were made. The high quality stuff I managed to save up for is now generally worth a lot of money, but in most cases not enough to part with it and I find myself looking for more at "good prices"
I knew when people were buying out the stores that essentially a beanie baby was a stuffed toy and barely worth the sum of it's parts despite the manufactured collector market.
The one that really kills me is the dead coin market. I grew up collecting coins because real coins will always have value. I remember going through rolls of pennies, nickels and dimes trying to fill up those damn coin books we bought as kids. My grandmother dutifully bought all the grandkids a proof set for every year for Christmas starting with the year they were born. It kills me that those "proof sets" aren't even worth the Kmart sticker price on them in most cases.
When I was a kid a 1909 VBD S mint penny was simply a $1000 coin. There's one on ebay right now for $725 with no takers and that's 30 years later.
At least I'm buying Pmags with the motivation of a lifetime supply and no illusions that they will be worth hundreds of dollars one day. And quite honestly if 2016 becomes the Christie / Clinton election, I'll stand by to let a few of them go if we get an election panic buy. Of course by then it probably won't be Pmags, it will be something else I have but don't have much to spare.
Mauser,
I understand your thoughts, but there are plenty of last minute pattys' who didn't know what the 2nd Amendment was until the devil was on their doorstep.
Alot of those who bought during the panic weren't true gun owners. They were people who lived in Fantasia while the Disney kingdom was under siege.
Sorry, but those who had the money and were not otherwise prohibited who waited to buy aren't going to get sympathy from me.
This...
I fully understand what you mean and don't necessarily disagree, but then again if you think there's nothing at all to what I said let's try this:
If I buy up as much silver as I can in hopes of selling for a profit to me that is different than buying up emergency food rations to sell them to my desperate neighbors in the event of a disaster. The silver I'll take money for free of guilt however the extra food I'd be more likely to give to those who really need it. To me something like a firearm isn't on the level of the food, but it's closer to it than it is the silver.
In times of crises guns, ammo and food are money. Those of us who stock up on those things when they are cheap, and have extra to get rid of, should be able to do so with no guilt. I took care of the people who have my back at cost. I started my GB auctions at .01c with a $100 reserve and let the buyer determine what it was worth to them. Ammo I sold at my yard sale was priced at average of what dealers who had it in stock were currently selling it for. Almost everyone who saw it was grateful to find it and be able to buy more than 1-3 boxes. I got so many people stop by or call afterword I was able to sell off some more for a friend who is expecting twins. I then got new tires for my truck, and got a nice
hunting rifle.
No guilt here whatsoever........I suggest the OP buy low and sell high. I think it will go a little lower though IMO. No one is really buying (except ammo) and stock is getting high and dusty.
The guy can make all the cash he wants. Good for him.
He really took a risk... not just that his move would be profitable, but that he would be able to sell at a gain, pay all his expenses, and also overcome a huge tax impact.
A huge tax impact would have been due even if he didn't sell at a profit. Could he have lost so much on the resale that he would have been unable to pay the taxes due? Possibly, like the beanie-baby example.
We would like to think that we can anticipate the future price of firearms and accouterments, but can we know for certain? Was he 80% certain of the coming spike? 90%? I expected it myself, but would I have gambled that much? No.
I can't even stand passing by a casino. I don't care for the odds or the environment. At least I can understand taking a risk in business, but this gamble of 401k money was more than that.
Risky ballsy move, and one I would not have taken myself.
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