View Full Version : Attention full size HK 45 owners
Larry Vickers
04-15-08, 19:25
As many of you know I was a key player in the development of this pistol - overall I think it turned out well but frankly there where a few things that HK Oberndorf overlooked late in the final development of the pistol - this is mainly due to the fact that neither I nor Ken Hackathorn (who also helped with the design) was involved at that point but that is another story .....
The problem area involves the trigger guard/mag release/trigger overtravel area - there is some excessive overtravel which magnifies the fact that some edges and corners inside the trigger guard and the L shaped mag catch bite the trigger finger when you shoot the pistol - this affects approx 75% of the people who shoot the weapon; same goes for the HK P30 except it is not as bad with a 9mm vs a .45 - the HK 45 Compact is not really a problem as it was left in the same configuration as the prototype HK 45's with a P2000 style frame (which all things considered I wish the full size had been left alone but then again that is another story also....)
The good news is my bro David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts (www.bowietacticalconcepts.com) - a polymer frame pistolsmith of the highest order - has done some mods that totally fix the problem
With my explanation of the problem areas and his efforts he has come up with a few critical mods that enhance the shootability of the pistol tremendously - every fullsize HK 45 should have this package - the 'Vickers HK 45 mods' for lack of a better term - they address the areas of the trigger guard/mag release/overtravel stop and basically fix what the factory did not
Feel free to contact Dave directly ref this package - combine this with a Bowie 360 stipple job and you are off and running with the HK 45 - that is until good aftermarket sights become available
I'm sure a number of you are saying 'why the hell should I have to have a pistolsmith fix a $900 pistol that should be right out of the box' - no argument there as it definately should not have to be done
But I have come to realize that most every weapon I buy has to be modified to suit my needs - that is part of being a savvy end user - and I no longer hold it against a given weapon because of that fact - if I had I sure as hell would never have even owned a 1911 - just be sure that the mods are for the right reason; performance enhancement and not as a crutch - there is a key difference
Hope this helps anyone seriously looking at the new HK pistols
be safe
LAV
Thanks Larry for this post.
I was honestly thinking about letting the HK 45 go because of this issue....and I was hoping someone would be able to address it.
Looks like my HK 45 will be taking a trip.
bullitt5172
04-15-08, 19:48
I'm working on the sight issue as we speak ;)
Larry Vickers
04-15-08, 20:06
FYI ; I just read that Heinie has sights for the HK 45 now and I hear Tooltech Gunsite will install tritium inserts into the factory sights
Good news for all as more options come on the market
cheers
LAV
Larry, would you know if there are flat or slimmer base plates for the HK45 magazines?
I got to play with an early version of this.
It definitely had lots of promise.
Sounds like it has been developed further.
Wayne Dobbs
04-16-08, 09:28
Larry,
This will really make that pistol worthwhile. I know that when I shot one of these, I sure got my trigger finger "stung" by the mag release slamming into it during recoil. That and the price made me think I will stay with an M&P for a polymer .45 ACP.
And, David Bowie will do an excellent job on the work.
Thanks for the heads up.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-08, 13:03
Damn you Larry Vickers!
I'm broke mot&$^&$, I'm broke!!:D
I would love to see pictures of this modification. I don't recall any pinching, so maybe I was in the 25% of non-effected shooters.
I would love to see pictures of this modification. I don't recall any pinching, so maybe I was in the 25% of non-effected shooters.
I don't recall pinching either. It is interesting to hear from one of the designer's mouth about what it should be. Damn those German engineers. If it weren't for them we would have a regular sized slide on a P7M10.
I would like to see pics of the mod also. Something I will definitely look into.
I have the HK45C too. Thanks Larry for an great handgun!
Damn you Larry Vickers!
I'm broke mot&$^&$, I'm broke!!:D
Have you noticed this problem with your HK45, Greg?
In the many threads that I have read on the HK45 various sites like HKpro, I have never noticed one mention of this problem. I am curious why that is the case.
I am not saying that it doesn't exist; Quite the contrary. I noticed it myself and a good number of people who tried the HK45 I had noticed it, including Wayne.
I am just curious why we didn't see more people online who noticed it.
I believe there may be an article coming out in an upcoming issue of SWAT on the HK45 that might prove quite illuminating. ;)
I believe there may be an article coming out in the June 2008 issue of SWAT on the HK45 that might prove quite illuminating. ;)
Is this the issue when the article on a certain training class in Georgia will be printed? :)
Yes, it is supposed to be.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-08, 16:21
I have not had the problem. Although, I would be interested in an over-travel stop if it was fixed like the old S&W revolver mods or a 10-8/Vickers trigger. I feel like almost all triggers could benefit from this. Limited overtravel makes up a large part of the 1911's "gold standard" trigger, IMHO. I suspect it will turn out that people with larger hands have this problem more than others. I have medium/small hands, and have never had it in about 7000 rounds.
I do find it sad that the anti-HK "you suck and we hate you" shills and fanboys for other guns/gun manufacturers will undoubtedly use this in a billion errornet posts. The scuttlebutt will be, LAV says the HK sucks, so buy and XD, M&P, Glock or some other nonsense. They will ignore that he said before about the HK45 being the most dead reliable/sturdy .45 available, and just focus on this. Oh, well, that's life.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-08, 16:30
A buddy of mine just bought one and I'll keep that in mind if he has any complaints about it.
I am certain that you will. Speak of the devil.
I was in a class with Larry Vickers in Jan of this year where he commented that the HK45 would outlast any gun in the class in terms of reliability and durability. The class sidearms ranged from 1911s, to Sigs, to Glocks.
Sometimes you have to get gunsmithing done to a gun to bring out its best qualities. I did this with a S&W M&P45. I tried several factory M&P45s and found them to have horrible triggers to the point where my hits were not very good on the target. I spent $100 having David Bowie do his top trigger job and what would have been $100 on shipping to him and back. The result was a gun that comes fairly close to a good 1911 in terms of shootability. Without the trigger job, it sucked for me big time and I would not even be interested in owning one.
I have not had the problem. Although, I would be interested in an over-travel stop if it was fixed like the old S&W revolver mods or a 10-8/Vickers trigger. I feel like almost all triggers could benefit from this. Limited overtravel makes up a large part of the 1911's "gold standard" trigger, IMHO. I suspect it will turn out that people with larger hands have this problem more than others. I have medium/small hands, and have never had it in about 7000 rounds.
I have noticed the finger wacking people with the HK45 with people of all sized hands. Either you feel it or you don't. Now that someone mentioned it, more people may be looking for it and thus notice it.
I don't know the specifics on the latest Bowie Tactical mods on the HK45, but I believe that it only addresses the finger pinching not the overtravel--which is present in many guns anyway. As for the gold standard of the 1911 trigger, the limited overtravel is part, but more so is the shortness and crispness of it and the fact that it travels straight back in a track as compared to most handgun triggers that pivot from the top.
I do find it sad that the anti-HK "you suck and we hate you" shills and fanboys for other guns/gun manufacturers will undoubtedly use this in a billion errornet posts. The scuttlebutt will be, LAV says the HK sucks, so buy and XD, M&P, Glock or some other nonsense. They will ignore that he said before about the HK45 being the most dead reliable/sturdy .45 available, and just focus on this. Oh, well, that's life.
I agree with you about the HK haters, but I don't think the XD is on Larry Vicker's list of preferred guns. But that's another issue entirely.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-08, 16:45
Well, that was just my theory. I don't know why, I just put the pad of my finger in the middle and fire.
As far as overtravel, my reference is the P9s. The trigger was a traditional pivoting model but with the overtravel stop, it was amazing in single action. Of course it had an adjustable sear too.
Oh yeah, and Mr. V said, he modifies all his guns to make them perfect. Hell, if I could have all the money back Novak's has gotten from me making my 1911's "perfect.":D
I would respectfully point out that how long something is capable of mechanically lasting can, and in most cases probably should, take a secondary position as to how well said device can be used operationally and effectively by its users throughout its mechanical lifespan. If there is a tool that is easier to use and more ergonomic, if it has a viable (as opposed to the ultimate) forecastable lifespan, I think that common sense would dictate the selection...
I think that there may be some merit in realizing that perfection per se, particularly regarding finding an ultimate perfect specific handgun, is a fleeting goal, and it's probably a bit more sensible to make a good, informed best decision based on intelligent criteria, input, and experience, and then concentrating on practice and training with that weapon, as opposed to forever chasing an elusive will-'o-the wisp. There may always be something (either incrementally or perceptually) "better" available, but then you have to figure in the "transaction cost:" i.e., (re)training time, acquisition costs, obtaining neceassary ancilliary equipment (holsters, magazine pouches, etc.), acquisition of experience and muscle memory, et cetera.
Best, Jon
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-08, 16:51
Olds442 dude,
Well Sir, I raise you 10,000 :rolleyes:
That said, I certainly apologize if I have offended you.
I believe there may be an article coming out in the June 2008 issue of SWAT on the HK45 that might prove quite illuminating. ;)
Who is writing this article?
You really dislike the standard grips Larry? Although they might look silly at first, I thought they felt really good- like an aggressive Magpul MIAD.
Are the variant 9 conversion parts available from HK yet? How about the ambi parts?
Bowie Tactical
04-16-08, 20:16
I have had a few people complain about the trigger guard issue and mag release hitting there trigger fingers while shooting. I was approached by the SWAT magazine writer about it a while back and did his gun. It helped him some.
Larry and I then got our heads together and addressed more of the issue and tried, and i think, made the HK 45 a better handling pistol.
Different size hands will be the telling tale. Some will need this and some will not.
My over travel stop is internal and is fixed. I NEVER use adjustable over travels. I build fighting guns and do not like screws in my triggers. They either shoot loose or someone messes with them and then wants to blame the smith for a won't run gun.
I am sorry I have not taken pictures of the guns I have done. I guess I did not realize the amount of interest this would get. I have had many e-mails about it recently.
CHECK 360
David Bowie
Jay Cunningham
04-16-08, 20:30
I am sorry I have not taken pictures of the guns I have done. I guess I did not realize the amount of interest this would get. I have had many e-mails about it recently.
CHECK 360
David Bowie
Well hopefully this post will generate some additional (well deserved) business David. I couldn't be more pleased with your sights that you installed on my M&P45...
Who is writing this article?
I wrote it. I've had other articles appear in SWAT: on the FN FS2000 in the Nov 2006 issue, on Paul Gomez's AK class in the Jan 2008 issue, on Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts Carbine Class in the Feb 2008 issue; plus a bunch of other articles in other publications on a variety of things.
David Bowie does some amazing work. From David's clarification in this thread, it sounds like his latest mods went much further and are much more extensive than he did on the one he worked on for me.
As I said, he does fantastic work.
I wrote it.
Cool.
I was going to mention that it was you.
I'm told it will be in the August issue.
I'm not sure of the publication date. I thought it was going to be in the June issue, but I could be wrong.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-17-08, 21:22
Ed!
I didn't know you wrote that article on the Fs2000. That was the reason I bought mine. Great article!
Having two S&W MPs(9mm and .45) worked on by r Bowie, I will champion his work to whoever will listen.
But thats the M&P and this is an HK45 thread. I shot Ed's HK45 quite a bit, before Bowie(now known as BB) and after Bowie(you guessed it, After Bowie). My problem was ater a bit of firing, I was chafing the bottom of my left index finger. I liked the pistol AB by far. Rounding out the bottom of the guard helped quite a bit, but I'd like to see the refinements of the Bowie HK package now. If its anything like his other work, like on my M&Ps, it is guranteed exceptional.
David Bowie, for the illumination of current and potential HK45 buyers, could you please post your menu of HK45 modifications as discussed/recommended and their prices?
Best, Jon
I don't think it's the mag release that gets me so much as it is the channel in the triggerguard.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-18-08, 14:37
I see why I don't have it. I always use the pad of my finger rather than the joint (because I have smallish hands and I don't want to compromise my grip with a cockeyed hold). If I used the crease I can see how it would happen.
So, I won't need the mod. But I would be interested in the travel-stop.
I see why I don't have it. I always use the pad of my finger rather than the joint (because I have smallish hands and I don't want to compromise my grip with a cockeyed hold). If I used the crease I can see how it would happen.
So, I won't need the mod. But I would be interested in the travel-stop.
If I conciously make the effort, then it doesn't get me, but I have wookie hands......
Bowie Tactical
04-18-08, 20:09
JonInWa, here goes. The Larry Vickers base mods which include a trigger over travel stop, re-doing the trigger guard to remove the channel and radiusing the mag release is $85. if you add the 360 grip stippling it totals $175. I can also do a trigger job but honestly the HK trigger does not improve all that much. It can be lightened about a pound to pound and a half on the DA but much more than that and I have seen reliability issues in the past with some light strikes on harder primers if you lighten the main spring. Cost for trigger job along is $75. I have also done slide radiusing to remove all sharp edges at $40 and a refinish with melonite is $100 of a ceramic based coating at $90. Polishing of the feed ramp and chamber and check of extractor and breach face and these addressed if needed is $25.
CHECK 360 David Bowie
David, do you have any pictures of your stippling on an HK45?
Thanks,
Ray
I see why I don't have it. I always use the pad of my finger rather than the joint (because I have smallish hands and I don't want to compromise my grip with a cockeyed hold). If I used the crease I can see how it would happen.
So, I won't need the mod. But I would be interested in the travel-stop.
Same here........."Travel -stop" PLEASE!!!
I tried the HK45 and HK45C w LEM last May at the SPOTC hosted by DOE at KAFB.
Did not have that problem w the HK45. I liked the fit and feel of the HK45C much better though; shot it better too.
Waited patiently, picked up two (2) HK45Cs V1 last week. Traded away some Glocks and 1911s for 'em. :D
Finally held the HK45 and HK45c today.
Both grips felt pretty good in the hand, though the thumb safety doesn't allow my thumb to ride very comfortably.
Of course, not having a chance to shoot either one, I cannot make much of a judgment.
Ed!
I didn't know you wrote that article on the Fs2000. That was the reason I bought mine. Great article!
Thanks, Greg.
I try to write the type of articles that I love to read. I really love my FS2000.
Thanks, Greg.
I really love my FS2000.
You're the only one I now that loves your FS2000! ;)
Dragonskin
04-27-08, 07:49
This would apply to the Mark 23, it is a full size 45 by HK?
thanks for the heads-up, larry. luckily, i'm one of the 25% that is unaffected by "HK45/P30-bite." i guess my tiny elfin hands are of some use, after all.:)
The closeness to the original spec is why I went with the HK45C over the HK45. Far and away a better unit than the full size currently in production.
That being said... I can only echo the sentiment that if HK produced a full size HK45 like the prototypes, I'd be dedicating some time/money/baksheesh to getting one. I'd much rather have a full size in the original spec.
I'm a recent convert to HK pistols only because of the P30 and HK 45. I always thought previous HK's were very well made but didn't care for the ergos or triggers. But I'm loving both the P30 and HK 45. I initially rejected the Hk 45 in the gun shop because I noticed when doing slow trigger squeezes my finger would scrape against the bottom of the trigger guard and that channel for the trigger. But I did end up buying a P30 and then after that had to have the Hk 45. I can't say i really noticed the trigger issue much at all now and I have big hands. I do notice that both pistols shoot like a frickin' laser beam and are exceedingly well made. I have not customized the grip on either pistol and probably never will as they seem fine out of the box. I think it is really amazing that you see so few issues with these pistols as new as they are. Contrast that with the M&P's which had lots of teething issues for awhile after their introduction but which seem to have settled down now. The HK 45c doesn't work for me btw. The grip to slide goes narrow and then fat on the slide too rapidly and as I said i have big hands so it doesn't feel right. I'm happy CCW'ing the P30 with 124gr +P Gold Dots though.
Production wise however I am sure there are many more M&P's in user hands than HK45's (more complaints). Plus HK has many years of experience with polymer based pistols to call on.
Personally, I have a 9 and 45 with zero malfunctions with approx. 8500 rds downrange.
I'm not knocking the M&P's. I had four of them before switching to the new HK's. I'm just saying they had teething problems early on whereas the new HK's appear to have remarkably few. Smith has made Sigma's for some time btw and that is a polymer pistol.
got my hk45 early on and was really bothered by the mag release rubbing on my trigger finger -- figured i'd need to have it modified and just set the gun on a back shelf. just saw this thread today -- go figure, LAV has it all figured out!
Gun is on its way for a tweak...
this forum can be useful, at times!
kjo
Jay Cunningham
06-28-08, 00:59
http://www.themalabarfront.com/images/HK45,%20front%20(2).JPG
Raven Concealment
Chalk me up as another one (twenty percenter?) that has no issues with the HK45s grip. You other guys must have fingers like friggin' sausages. I can't see it personally, but there it is.
The HK45 is light years ahead of the USP (and Mk23) when it comes to the grip. It is just that good. The one time I picked up a Mk23 I thought there's no way I could shoot this thing well. It'd fight me every step of the way. I'm not a huge fan of my USP40 for a similar reason. It just handles poorly compared to the HK45.
Jack_Stroker
03-15-09, 21:18
Chalk me up as another one (twenty percenter?) that has no issues with the HK45s grip. You other guys must have fingers like friggin' sausages. I can't see it personally, but there it is.
The HK45 is light years ahead of the USP (and Mk23) when it comes to the grip. It is just that good. The one time I picked up a Mk23 I thought there's no way I could shoot this thing well. It'd fight me every step of the way. I'm not a huge fan of my USP40 for a similar reason. It just handles poorly compared to the HK45.
I shoot the Mark 23 SOCOM just fine and I thought the grip was decent but I had other ergonomic "dislikes" with the gun. Nice gun overall but too much money and too large for my purposes. I like the H&K USP .45/.45 Tactical, but the grip doesn't feel nearly as good to me as the one found on the HK-45. Hands down it is the best feeling polymer pistol I've ever handled. I too have no problems or issues with the HK-45's trigger area, but I see how it would bother some people. Other than the trigger area, I find the pistol to be perfect as is. I wouldn't change anything else. The other improvements made to the HK-45 are nice as well. Mainly the feel of the slide release, the ambidextrous nature of the weapon, the ease of the hammer pull when putting the pistol in SA mode (a huge deal for me) and bar none, the magazine release is worlds ahead of the USP's. Additional capacity matching the Glock 21 or the USP would be nice, but not a huge issue for me as a long time 1911 guy. If the sacrifice in capacity was necessary to achieve the feel that the HK-45 has, it was worth it.
I apologize for necroposting here, but....
Have the issues identified as "in need of improvement" by Larry Vickers with the HK45 improved since the handgun was first introduced?]
In other words, are they still a problem with this model?
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/hk45/lg_hk45.jpg
Hunter Rose
06-30-13, 10:05
I apologize for necroposting here, but....
Have the issues identified as "in need of improvement" by Larry Vickers with the HK45 improved since the handgun was first introduced?]
In other words, are they still a problem with this model?
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/hk45/lg_hk45.jpg
The HK45 has not changed since introduction.
I bought a brand new one last week. The trigger channel still exists, but does not affect me when firing.
It just looked to me as thought the first release of the HK 45 had a different grip and I was wondering if there were any other changes/improvements since then and now.
I apologize for necroposting...
Well they say that's what the search button is for and personally I'm ok with your already answered question because this has been next on my list. Would have one now but went with a M&P 15-22 for my son recently instead, which is a nice little variant unto itself so I certainly have no regrets.
But I still want the HK.
Wow, that was just an incredibly useless response.
:no:
Wow, that was just an incredibly useless response.
:no:
What is it with some of you guys lately? I loan additional credence to your post in light of your concern about necroposting while expressing my interest in the topic and you slam me for it?
Did I miss something there?
If I misunderstood your comment, you have my apology.
I own the 45 and 45C. Love them both, but the best thing I did was send them to Grayguns! Had a complete action job, trigger pull around 4 lbs, and Dawson Precision Fiber Optic sights put on them. They are a dream to shoot! Hk's really live up to the hype.
What is it with some of you guys lately? I loan additional credence to your post in light of your concern about necroposting while expressing my interest in the topic and you slam me for it?
Did I miss something there?
Yes I think that is the case. I read your post a couple times and couldn't decide if you were bashing the dude or complimenting him. It appears everyone is on the same page. All good here.
If anyone checked out this old thread and got the work done:
How was the work?
Would you consider it a quality trigger job, or just a fix !
I never got the bite. Shot it all morning and just loved it. I run Heinne straight eights. Only change I made to the gun.
I had trigger work done on my P30, it's trigger was much worse.
PB
I have not had the modification done, but I do have an HK45 and I'm also in the whatever% group that doesn't have an issue. I have small hands which may be a factor.
Well, by way of follow up....
I purchased a NIB HK 45 on Gunbroker from a gunshop out in PA yesterday on Gunbroker....get this ... I snagged it for $812, plus $15 shipping.
How sweet is that?
Well, by way of follow up....
I purchased a NIB HK 45 on Gunbroker from a gunshop out in PA yesterday on Gunbroker....get this ... I snagged it for $812, plus $15 shipping.
How sweet is that?
That was damn near theft. :cool:
Well, by way of follow up....
I purchased a NIB HK 45 on Gunbroker from a gunshop out in PA yesterday on Gunbroker....get this ... I snagged it for $812, plus $15 shipping.
How sweet is that?
The sweetest part is that you didn't buy it from the guy selling one for $400 over what he paid.
The sweetest part is that you didn't buy it from the guy selling one for $400 over what he paid.
I don't care what people make on their gun sales, as long as I think the price is fair and right for market conditions, who cares?
But, on the other hand, if I can get it for as low a price as possible, sweet.
And besides, I'm not sure who would be able to buy it at a low enough price and get away with selling it for $400 over what he paid, but you just never know.
Capitalism, go figure.
Coal Dragger
07-01-13, 22:11
Well I for one am glad this one got resurrected from the dead, since it has some useful info on HK trigger work and who will perform it.
I still am leaning towards snagging one of these HK's and the ability to clean up the trigger a bit is a big plus.
I had the chance to purchase either the HK45 or the 45C---I went with the 45C (as part of my trend towards smaller, more packable pistols) and don't regret it at all. The usual, almost boring, HK 100% function and quite accurite as well. I also have an older USPf 45 for years now and can't seem to miss with this gun. A lot of talk about terrible, horrible, unusable, etc. HK triggers---no problems here---not a 1911, but nothing else is. :rolleyes:
Took my Hk45Tactical out for a spin yesterday--no complaints on the trigger. Very 1911 like.
The aforementioned channel is still there on both the Hk45 and the P30, and it will rub your finger during the trigger stroke. That's about the extent of my complaints.
My buddy Hilton has his 10-8 rear sights back in stock. So I ordered one with a brass bead front to match.
Cant wait to wring this HK45 out. The stock sights are just garbage.
After I shot my HK45 last weekend and got HK fever, it can be severe and Gunbroker is one known cure, I jumped on Gunbroker.
I tried to find an HK45C for a friend a couple months ago, there were none to be found. Now they have a few floating in the market as it has settled. There were several for sale with good prices. I bought a lightly used HK45C for $860 with four Holsters. 2 Raven concealment , a leather one and some other Kydex. ($1,095 street price usually) Freakin smoking deal for $860 without holsters
Food for thought and support for HK. Thread after thread about Glocks extraction issues and M&P's shooting 6 inch groups (neither of which I experienced thank God) made me appreciate the HK reliability and performance. Enjoy your HK fellas.
Congrats on the HK purchase.
brushy bill
07-05-13, 12:31
After I shot my HK45 last weekend and got HK fever, it can be severe and Gunbroker is one known cure, I jumped on Gunbroker.
I tried to find an HK45C for a friend a couple months ago, there were none to be found. Now they have a few floating in the market as it has settled. There were several for sale with good prices. I bought a lightly used HK45C for $860 with four Holsters. 2 Raven concealment , a leather one and some other Kydex. ($1,095 street price usually) Freakin smoking deal for $860 without holsters
Food for thought and support for HK. Thread after thread about Glocks extraction issues and M&P's shooting 6 inch groups (neither of which I experienced thank God) made me appreciate the HK reliability and performance. Enjoy your HK fellas.
I never found a deal like that on GB. Congrats.
I never found a deal like that on GB. Congrats.
I know, me too. If you count the Holsters, it was more like a $650 gun for a $1,100 gun. Thats unusual. The good thing, these are Holsters that I absolutely dig. Both and IWB and OWB Ravens.
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