Quartet of Premium Polymer Pistols

[warpedcamshaft]

I had posted this on another forum, and figured M4C might find it interesting:

Just a few pics of a quartet of polymer pistols I've been playing with for a while from a concealed carry standpoint (all 9mm's):

I've put a bunch of rounds through all of them, and figured I would take some pictures to commemorate the fun!!!

Walther PPQ
Glock 19 Gen 3 w/ Grip Force Adapter
HK P30 V1
S&W M&P9


Group Shot on Cardboard target:

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_1.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_1.jpg.html)

Rear view:

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_2.jpg.html)

Top view length comparison:

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_3.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_3.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_4.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_4.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_5.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_5.jpg.html)


Freeze frame during recoil (these were taken from the first shot of a controlled pair that met my average split time for each weapon):

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_6.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_6.jpg.html)


Then, when questioned about my thoughts... I wrote up the following:

Well, since you asked... I'll share my thoughts... for whatever they are worth.

Just as an overview: The Glock 19 is where I started... and I have shot and carried this pistol for quite some time. The Glock 19 Gen 3 is equipped with the following: Grip Force Adapter, Ameriglo Defoor Tactical Sights, a Glock factory "-" connector, a grip plug, and an extended slide stop.

The other pistols are completely stock. The M&P and PPQ were equipped with the large grips. The P30 V1 was equipped with the large backstraps and large side panels. I have large hands, and tend to find that I have to make modifications to pistols to avoid "hotspots".

Ergonomics/Size:

From an ergonomic standpoint, I have to modify the following areas on each pistol for extended range sessions or training courses:

Glock: Round out the bottom of the trigger guard to avoid strong hand middle finger pain and epidermis removal. Add grip force adapter to avoid slide bite.

M&P: Remove texturing from bottom of trigger guard to avoid strong hand middle finger pain and abrasion of my baby soft middle finger knuckle skin.

PPQ: Radius edge of magazine release to avoid strong hand middle finger pain and forceful removal of hide from my middle interphalangeal articulation.

P30: No issues.

With the above changes, I find that any of the pistols listed offer decent ergonomics for both range work and concealed carry. I don't really have any preference and can move between any of them without issues with a few dryfire presentations from the holster. I've never really been picky about the way a pistol feels... If I can shoot it well on drills, and endure long range sessions without serious pain, I am happy.

From a size standpoint, the Glock 19 and Walther PPQ have a bit shorter grip length (especially the Glock 19), which helps me a bit while carrying concealed. However, I have no problem carrying any of these 4 given the proper clothing and holster selection. I carry at the 3:30 position with inside the waistband type holsters.

Accuracy:

I generally shoot 5 shot groups offhand at 25 yards to gauge accuracy... I understand the limitations of 5 shot groups and that 10 shot groups are better... However, I'll be honest and say that I often don't have the patience to shoot 10 round groups for long periods of time.

The HK P30 and PPQ seem to be in a different league from an accuracy standpoint. I can pick up either pistol, and with several different types of ammunition, get groups under 3 inches. The HK P30 has produced 1.5 - 2.75 inch groups. The PPQ in my hands is usually in the 2.5 - 2.75 inch range.

The Glock 19 has always hovered round the 3 - 4 inch mark for me depending on the load.

I ended up with an M&P that would not shoot 115 or 124 grain ammunition at 25 yards consistently. I found my groups to be around 7.5 - 10 inches at 25 yards.
The M&P in question was purchased in November 2012. With 147 grain ammunition, I will pretty much get similar accuracy to the Glock 19... around 3 - 4 inches.

Keep in mind that these were all fired offhand by me, and I am a human.

"Shootability":

I shot a wide variety of drills over a long period of time...

I shot controlled pair drills on IDPA targets (2 shots as fast as I can while tracking sights in the A-zone) and found that with each pistol, I seemed to hit a performance wall where I could consistently shoot the same time over and over with good A-zone hits:

Walther: .15 split
Glock 19: .16 split
M&P: .17 split
P30 LEM: .19 split

I can shoot the FAST drill in the Advanced range (sub 7 seconds) with any of the pistols from 3:30 IWB.

I can also shoot the CSAT 5 and 1 in well under 2 seconds with any of them. (par time is 3 seconds)

Trigger characteristics are such a subjective thing... for me, any of them work pretty well with practice. In the "observations" section below, I will share some more of my thoughts.

Observations:

The Walther PPQ feels like it has a harsher recoil impulse, the other 3 pistols feel about the same to me. The recoil impulse of the PPQ doesn't really seem to impact performance or split times that much.

The Walther PPQ trigger is quite interesting and very fast... I had to focus on not "outrunning" my sights with the trigger.

The LEM trigger needs range time and dryfiring, and after some wear takes on a smooth rolling break. I had problems adapting for the first couple hundred rounds, and then found it was a very viable system after lots of dryfire.

The LEM trigger is slower for me to run than the other triggers on large targets like an A-zone or an 8 inch circle compared to the other pistols.

The LEM trigger is faster and easier for me to be more consistent on smaller targets such as a 3x5 at 7 yards or an A-zone or 8 inch circle at 25 yards.

The stock M&P trigger on my sample was pretty decent and I don't have any problems with it. It has some grit during take up, but the break turned into a smooth rolling break after quite a few rounds.

The Glock trigger is pretty well known, and I don't mind it... either the "-" connector or the stock connector work fairly well. I prefer the "-" connector if I have the option to change it.

I take a lot of video of shooting sessions, and the P30's ejection is extremely consistent compared to the other 3 samples.

The PPQ and Glock have polymer sights that get rounded off quickly by holsters and such. I like the M&P's stock sights the best out of all the pistols, but I think all 4 of them need new sights.

All of the pistols seem to be very reliable based on my round counts. The PPQ was a little picky about some Freedom Munitions 115 grain Reman ammo I ended up with, but everything else worked 100 %.

Final thoughts:

I guess for me... I don't really care which pistol I ended up with: as long as a the M&P accuracy issue was fixed with 115 and 124 grain ammo, I could slap on new sights on each pistol, and I could make the ergonomics changes I mentioned in the beginning to the respective units.

The P30's ejection pattern does honestly inspire a bit more confidence for me, however the HK costs more... but I'll leave that up to the reader to decide if that is important to them.

I also can't really speak to long term durability as I've only got about 1000 rounds through each gun... (except the Glock 19 has seen much more)



(A few more details I forgot to include. These may have been self-evident, but I'll mention them anyways: Walther PPQ is an M1 model with a paddle style magazine release, and the M&P is a non-thumb safety and non-magazine disconnect model.)

[Kchen986]

Excellent post! As far as the M&P9's inaccuracy goes, I ordered a KKM Barrel which *significantly* tightened my shot groups:

Stock BBL @ 25 Yards (and compared to my G19).
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GkrzVnpo-ZM/UMk-TVH60XI/AAAAAAAADis/g9UkGwRDOkY/s800/20121212_213022.jpg

W/ the KKM Drop in BBL installed. (Small tgt @ 15 yards, larger targets at 25).

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RnaTiZyouXc/UfLdmK4TH8I/AAAAAAAAFks/5ULznWVpOII/s800/20130726_161538.jpg

Lead time from order to door was only about a week. I'm very pleased so far. My M&P9 went from safe queen to car duty, as I finally have enough confidence in the weapon.

[warpedcamshaft]

Thanks for the info!!! Very interesting.

From what I understand, S&W is making efforts to resolve complaints regarding accuracy with the full sized M&P 9mm handguns.

I read this info from a reputable source, but I'm not sure if I should post a link here... don't want to get in trouble.

Search with google for M&P production updates, and I'm sure you will find the info.

[Kchen986]

Thanks for the info!!! Very interesting.

From what I understand, S&W is making efforts to resolve complaints regarding accuracy with the full sized M&P 9mm handguns.

I read this info from a reputable source, but I'm not sure if I should post a link here... don't want to get in trouble.

Search with google for M&P production updates, and I'm sure you will find the info.

--Sorry don't want to pull your excellent post too far off topic, but I've read the double dimple barrels have been getting good results too. Maybe I should've called S&W instead of buying a new bbl. :)

[Omega Man]

Nice thorough comparison. Good stuff.

[okie john]

Thank you for a most excellent post--this is the kind of testing that I would do if I could afford to own all four of these pistols at the same time.

It's also just one more example of why I keep coming back to M4Carbine.


Okie John

[montanadave]

Nice write up (and a nice stable of handguns).

[SmokinSigs357]

That was a great post! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts/findings with us!

[Tzook]

Awesome post! I'm actually surprised at how small the PPQ is, I have yet to get any time on one and I just figured it was G17 ish sized.

[warpedcamshaft]

This type of evaluation is not really an intelligent or productive thing to do for most people... For me, it was mostly for fun.

It would have been far more productive to pick one of these handguns and train extensively... but hopefully this info is helpful to some.

[okie john]

This type of evaluation is not really an intelligent or productive thing to do for most people... For me, it was mostly for fun.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I have to disagree that it wasn't productive. It's extremely rare for someone to intelligently compare four major handgun designs side-by-side in a realistic way and document it clearly.

So thanks for that.


Okie John

[straterman]

So what one is your favorite? & if diferent what one do u carry and why?

[warpedcamshaft]

So what one is your favorite? & if diferent what one do u carry and why?

I honestly can't answer which one is my favorite. Each model has it's merits and flaws, and from my viewpoint... it would be hard to go wrong with any of them.

I'd rather not answer what I am carrying (not trying to be an ass, but I don't think my selection is relevant and it may be detrimental to the discussion)... but I will say that I have carried all of them at different times in order to give a good representation for the analysis I wrote.

[straterman]

Thank u for the response not trying to affend. Im just going to assume p30 :)

[dookie1481]

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I have to disagree that it wasn't productive. It's extremely rare for someone to intelligently compare four major handgun designs side-by-side in a realistic way and document it clearly.

So thanks for that.


Okie John

I agree, that was very interesting.

[mrvip27]

I love my PPQ. :D Great post!

[UDT]

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts/findings with us! Excellent post!

[Gary1911A1]

Thanks for the review. I enjoyed reading it.

[warpedcamshaft]

Another detail that I forgot to mention:

Both the German pistols have stepped chambers and leave a distinct ring around the forward third of the fired casing.

Also...

Here are pictures I took to document my consistant controlled pair "wall" for each pistol. (I can basically shoot a controlled pair at the speeds below many times in a row without pushing a shot, any faster and I will have issues.)

Please pay more attention to the split times than the total time... As it took me an extra moment to pick up the sights on a few of these.

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/2sp30.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/2sp30.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/2sppq.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/2sppq.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/2sG19.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/2sG19.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/2smp9.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/2smp9.jpg.html)

[warpedcamshaft]

Just for fun, P30 in a vehicle drill:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/vehp30.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/vehp30.jpg.html)

[Briman1001]

Thank you for the comparison as I really enjoyed it. The only thing that would of made it better is throwing the FN FNS-9 in there too. But then there are a hundred other pistols folks could also come up with. Thanks again for taking the time. This does nothing to quell my itch to purchase a PPQ though.

[warpedcamshaft]

Thank you for the comparison as I really enjoyed it. The only thing that would of made it better is throwing the FN FNS-9 in there too. But then there are a hundred other pistols folks could also come up with. Thanks again for taking the time. This does nothing to quell my itch to purchase a PPQ though.

I have some time/ammo on the FNS-40, but not the 9mm version. Maybe I can add some more in the future.

[warpedcamshaft]

Thread Update regarding the P30:

I tried quite a few rounds with an alternate trigger configuration in which the light trigger return spring is swapped for the heavy trigger return spring. I have heard to this setup referred to as the "TGS" trigger configuration... You'll have to Google it if you want more details on this setup's origin.

The primary reasoning for this modification according to my understanding is to provide a more aggressive trigger return. The heavier spring definitely changes the feel of the return, but also adds some weight to the pull.

Long story short, this configuration slowed me down at first. However, I was able to adapt fairly quickly but could not get my split times quite as low as I was able to do with the original return spring. I did not find this modification helpful in the end and reverted the P30 in question to a standard light spring.

Some more thoughts on the LEM:

My 25 yard drill scores (example: Defoor Proformance Pistol Test #2) and closer range speed drill scores have increased after learning some more nuances of the LEM trigger. I found that I had waaaay too much finger on the trigger and that utilizing the exact center of the pad while pressing through the entire trigger smoothly as if I were shooting a double action revolver yields very good results.

Trigger finger placement ended up being extremely crucial for me with the Lem... MUCH more so than with other designs. I have tested myself cold and tracked my scores before and after my adjustments, and it was a night and day difference.

However, as I said before: My splits are slower, but my shots are tighter.

Hopefully, that helps someone and/or is interesting.

[FAB45]

Good review, four great options

[okie john]

Thread Update regarding the P30:

I tried quite a few rounds with an alternate trigger configuration in which the light trigger return spring is swapped for the heavy trigger return spring. I have heard to this setup referred to as the "TGS" trigger configuration... You'll have to Google it if you want more details on this setup's origin.

The primary reasoning for this modification according to my understanding is to provide a more aggressive trigger return. The heavier spring definitely changes the feel of the return, but also adds some weight to the pull.

Long story short, this configuration slowed me down at first. However, I was able to adapt fairly quickly but could not get my split times quite as low as I was able to do with the original return spring. I did not find this modification helpful in the end and reverted the P30 in question to a standard light spring.

Some more thoughts on the LEM:

My 25 yard drill scores (example: Defoor Proformance Pistol Test #2) and closer range speed drill scores have increased after learning some more nuances of the LEM trigger. I found that I had waaaay too much finger on the trigger and that utilizing the exact center of the pad while pressing through the entire trigger smoothly as if I were shooting a double action revolver yields very good results.

Trigger finger placement ended up being extremely crucial for me with the Lem... MUCH more so than with other designs. I have tested myself cold and tracked my scores before and after my adjustments, and it was a night and day difference.

However, as I said before: My splits are slower, but my shots are tighter.

Hopefully, that helps someone and/or is interesting.

Thank you for the thinking and effort behind this thread. It's infinitely more helpful than the "Pistol A felt better in my hand than Pistol B" kind of stuff that most forums provide.


Okie John

[Hmac]

Nice post, thanks.

It mirrors my experience with 3 of the 4 pistols. I have a Glock 19, M&P9L, and PPQ. PPQ is by far my favorite...accurate and fast. The G19 had brass-to-face issues (fixed with Apex FRE) and mediocre accuracy in my hands, and the M&P had accuracy issues similar to yours...bad....fixed with a hand-fitted Storm Lake barrel.

[warpedcamshaft]

Another update:

The M&P has now moved on to a friend, who despite my full disclosure of the accuracy situation, wanted to purchase it from me.

The PPQ has finally been equipped with Trijicon night sights that I have been waiting for on backorder for quite some time.

The improved sights made a big difference for me immediately, and 6x6 plates at 50 yards / 1 inch squares at 7 yards are much easier to hit consistently. The shallow rear notch on the stock PPQ sights always bothered me, and these new sights have positively impacted my shooting with the PPQ. (My take: I highly recommend aftermarket sights for the PPQ)

The Glock 19 decided that my face could use a few expended casings after somewhere around 1000 rounds since it visited Glock for an inspection and "update." I replaced the 336 ejector with a 30274 ejector, and the problem seems to have gone away for the time being... Although it still ejects in every direction, it has not hit me in the face with the new ejector.

[warpedcamshaft]

Yesterday, I shot the Slackathorn standards (this is what I call the "kiddy version" of the Hackathorn standards where you don't point shoot from retention. I still do the roll at 20 yards prone, and a reload with retention at 25) I shoot both versions every now and then, but I decided to shoot the Slackathorn because when switching between platforms so quickly, point shooting can become an issue for me.

I broke my previous record using the PPQ and it's new Trijicon sights: a 290!

Using the Glock 19, I ran a 284.

My first run with a Sig p226 also scored a 284.

The HK p30: 263...

The LEM trigger bit me in the ass after shooting the other firearms... I am somewhat embarrassed by this. I shot this weapon last in the day and was somewhat fatigued, but my performance was obviously poor in comparison. I lost 8 points on the WHO pickup drill because my brain was not in LEM mode.

I am quickly finding that bouncing around other guns and then coming back to the P30 can be a problem given my limited ammo budget and training time. I have to switch my brain to a different mode in order to get good trigger presses. The LEM can be great... but I need to devote myself to it for a while in order to get consistent performance.

The HK P30 is frustrating for me in ways, but it functions so perfectly. The Glock 19 drops brass on my arms and top of my head... and the PPQ also ejects erratically sometimes. You can feed my P30 anything, and it always ejects consistently for 1500 rounds now.

[Crow Hunter]

Thank you for those pictures.

I have been kind of looking round for a G19'ish sized gun (or smaller).

You have helped scratch 3 off that list. :D

Seriously, good information. Thank you.

[Suwannee Tim]

Thank you for the thinking and effort behind this thread. It's infinitely more helpful than the "Pistol A felt better in my hand than Pistol B" kind of stuff that most forums provide. ....Okie John

That's what I was thinking. Seems like almost everybody has an opinion and many of them are adamant about it but very damn few have the trigger time to back it up.

[warpedcamshaft]

OK... Another update...

I was unhappy with my performance last week with the P30 Lem, and went to the range again this evening to run through the Slackathorn standards. I did a couple of p30 dryfire sessions to re-acclimate to the LEM during the week...

I managed a 284 with the P30...

Not sure if anyone cares... but I figured I would add it to the thread in order to properly represent the P30 after my prior 263 score.

[montrala]

Not sure if anyone cares...

I care ;)

My experience with LEM (use it for over 10 years in different pistols and configurations) is that it has very steep learning curve. For me, until I managed to climb it, that was very frustrating experience. But this time I had only one pistol and it had LEM inside, so I had no choice but learn it.

[PatrioticDisorder]

Warpedcamshaft, if you plan to purchase a VP9 I would love to see how it compares head up compared to am&zap, Glock & PPQ. Also, have you considered sending the P30 to Gray Guns? It's been widely reported by many on the HKPro forum it makes a dramatic difference with the P30 in particular.

[bjxds]

Thanks for the time and effort and clear and concise information you provided. 1000 rounds each should give you a pretty good idea.

VERY Interesting to me, as I am currently considering the G19, P30, and PPQ for CC. I have decided to focus on the PPQ and P30. I am looking for something that I can carry IWB in summer with shorts and a t-shirt as well as in the winter with heavier clothes.

I like the the fact that you actually iwb carried and your non issues with any.
Did you carry with light clothing and did you find the P30 grip to grab/cling to light fabric like a polyester polo?
Do you feel the transition from LEM back to SF was as big an issue as SF to LEM?

I am very interested in the P30 for the last 15 years and have transitioned to striker fired. I am not sure I am am willing to dedicate the time possibly required to transition back to DA/SA so the LEM really interested me. I originally thought that there may be less of a re-acclimation from SF to LEM, but It seems that may not be the case.
I found your thoughts/experience on the different versions of LEM interesting as well. If this is a carry gun I think I would keep the factory v1 LEM. I have never shot a LEM.
I have shot DA/SA autos and revolvers in the past so the transition may not be as bad as I imagine. Also I do not shoot as well as your scores indicated so the differences between the platforms will either be less noticeable or very much so for me. The ONLY way to know is do it.

I lean to the PPQ, mostly due to price and the P30 because of HK quality and LEM, but it depends what day it is.

[MiamiCracker]

Thanks for the time and effort and clear and concise information you provided. 1000 rounds each should give you a pretty good idea.

VERY Interesting to me, as I am currently considering the G19, P30, and PPQ for CC. I have decided to focus on the PPQ and P30. I am looking for something that I can carry IWB in summer with shorts and a t-shirt as well as in the winter with heavier clothes.

I like the the fact that you actually iwb carried and your non issues with any.
Did you carry with light clothing and did you find the P30 grip to grab/cling to light fabric like a polyester polo?
Do you feel the transition from LEM back to SF was as big an issue as SF to LEM?

I am very interested in the P30 for the last 15 years and have transitioned to striker fired. I am not sure I am am willing to dedicate the time possibly required to transition back to DA/SA so the LEM really interested me. I originally thought that there may be less of a re-acclimation from SF to LEM, but It seems that may not be the case.
I found your thoughts/experience on the different versions of LEM interesting as well. If this is a carry gun I think I would keep the factory v1 LEM. I have never shot a LEM.
I have shot DA/SA autos and revolvers in the past so the transition may not be as bad as I imagine. Also I do not shoot as well as your scores indicated so the differences between the platforms will either be less noticeable or very much so for me. The ONLY way to know is do it.

I lean to the PPQ, mostly due to price and the P30 because of HK quality and LEM, but it depends what day it is.

If you get the PPQ you won't be disappointed.

[warpedcamshaft]

Warpedcamshaft, if you plan to purchase a VP9 I would love to see how it compares head up compared to am&zap, Glock & PPQ. Also, have you considered sending the P30 to Gray Guns? It's been widely reported by many on the HKPro forum it makes a dramatic difference with the P30 in particular.

I would really like to get my hands on a VP9... if I do, I will update the thread.

I've heard many good things about Gray Guns and their P30 modifications, but I can't personally justify the cost.

[warpedcamshaft]

Thanks for the time and effort and clear and concise information you provided. 1000 rounds each should give you a pretty good idea.

VERY Interesting to me, as I am currently considering the G19, P30, and PPQ for CC. I have decided to focus on the PPQ and P30. I am looking for something that I can carry IWB in summer with shorts and a t-shirt as well as in the winter with heavier clothes.

I like the the fact that you actually iwb carried and your non issues with any.
Did you carry with light clothing and did you find the P30 grip to grab/cling to light fabric like a polyester polo?
Do you feel the transition from LEM back to SF was as big an issue as SF to LEM?

I am very interested in the P30 for the last 15 years and have transitioned to striker fired. I am not sure I am am willing to dedicate the time possibly required to transition back to DA/SA so the LEM really interested me. I originally thought that there may be less of a re-acclimation from SF to LEM, but It seems that may not be the case.
I found your thoughts/experience on the different versions of LEM interesting as well. If this is a carry gun I think I would keep the factory v1 LEM. I have never shot a LEM.
I have shot DA/SA autos and revolvers in the past so the transition may not be as bad as I imagine. Also I do not shoot as well as your scores indicated so the differences between the platforms will either be less noticeable or very much so for me. The ONLY way to know is do it.

I lean to the PPQ, mostly due to price and the P30 because of HK quality and LEM, but it depends what day it is.

I have not had issues with polymer grips (even aggressively textured ones) clinging to clothing (rubber grips cling much worse). The P30 and M&P are harder to hide with a T-shirt than the G19/PPQ. I usually wear a cover garment of some sort when carrying a G19 or larger sized handgun.

The LEM trigger was frustrating to learn, but now that I've learned the nuances... I can transition back and forth after long periods without problems. (I know this contradicts my previous observations from last year, but I have validated this a couple of times now after a good amount of time away from the P30)

My advice would be to not buy a P30 LEM unless you can rent/try one... Be sure to shoot at various distances and target sizes.

The VP9 may be worth waiting for, however... my understanding is that it is larger than the PPQ.

[warpedcamshaft]

I still have not beaten my 290 Hack Standards run with the PPQ.

Closest I've come is 288 from concealment with a Glock 19...

[jyo]

Interesting line-up, I too would like to see how the new HK VP9 compares---I have an HK P30S 9mm pistol that I like a lot---of course, it's DA/SA---but I like that too. The only LEM pistol I currently own is an P2000sk in 9mm---I don't worry too much about the trigger as the gun is a hide-out pistol and most probably (if ever) be used close-up---point, cycle trigger…
Still would like to obtain a VP9...

[bjxds]

I finally got my hands on a PPQ- SWEET, I like the idea of the LEM but think it will have to be put on the back burner for now.

I really think the PPQ may be the biggest I may be able to get away with only a T or polo shirt, only one way to tell. I really would like to see the VP9, but one thing I don't like from a CC perspective is the added width of the cocking wings/levers on the back of the slide. I am seriously thinking of getting the PPQ Now and wait a little bit and very likely get the VP9. I am a little gun shy about buying a brand new 1st model anything.

As for the 290 Hack standards, CONGRATS, I am not even close, maybe one day.

[montrala]

I really would like to see the VP9, but one thing I don't like from a CC perspective is the added width of the cocking wings/levers on the back of the slide.

Just FYI, those are removable. Slide out rear sight, remove wings, slide sight back in. HK is going to offer flush fitting inserts to feel gap when wings are removed, but those have cosmetic purpose (rg. for good looks).

BTW One of things that makes HK different from lot of other manufacturers is, that you can buy brand new 1st model of something from them. They do not "beta test" on their customers. One of reasons why it takes them sometimes quite long to release new products. My P2000, P30, P30L and MR223 all were from first 1000 made (between as low as first 200ish up to first 600ish). Never had problems with any of those.