View Full Version : Why are HK LEM triggers "hard to learn"?
I keep seeing this phrase brought up when it comes to HK pistols. I feel the opposite, however. I came to HK several years ago from shooting Glocks and Sigs. I found the LEM to similar to the Glock trigger, but with a slightly longer pull and reset. The Glock trigger is always touted as easy to use. Does the extra travel really make that much difference? Thoughts (specifically from people who teach new shooters)?
warpedcamshaft
08-01-13, 16:55
First off, would you mind giving a frame of reference for how skilled of a shooter you are?
Depending on what you are doing with a handgun and whether or not you train with a shot timer... you may or may not be in a place where you picked up "habits" with other triggers. If you are slowfiring at 7 yards, it may never be an issue.
I think the main issue is for people who are "bump humpers." That is how I have been trained to shoot a Glock, prep the trigger to the bump/hump, and press through.
The LEM works best for me as a continuous press... and I struggled at first until I read some information from a very skilled shooter who put a large quantity of ammunition through a P30 LEM and documented his process of learning.
I have been shooting handguns for 6 years and other firearms more-or-less most of my life. I agree with the bump/hump thing. I broke myself of it fairly on in handgun shooting. I think it helps with all triggers. Especially my DA revolvers.
warpedcamshaft
08-01-13, 17:08
I have been shooting handguns for 6 years and other firearms more-or-less most of my life. I agree with the bump/hump thing. I broke myself of it fairly on in handgun shooting. I think it helps with all triggers. Especially my DA revolvers.
To be honest with you... I have noticed that revolver shooters have a really easy time picking up the LEM and rolling with it. I have seen a few guys who don't shoot auto's pick up the P30 LEM instantly, but struggle with a Glock a bit more.
I do shoot a lot of revolvers, and found that dryfire practice with a S&W 442 helped me adapt to the LEM faster than some others whose experiences I have read (I was trying to hump the bump on the P30, and that simply doesn't work for me on that pistol.)
I will say... that the LEM trigger (V1 on a P30) is slower for me on larger more "open" target splits times compared to the PPQ, Glock, M&P, 1911, or XD by a couple/few hundredths, and I have heard some very skilled shooters say the same thing about the LEM trigger.
However, it is a great trigger system and I find that I can hit smaller targets faster and more consistently with it. (including split times of follow up shots)
My learned to shoot with a revolver as her first gun. Concequently, while she is good with an LEM trigger (she won an accuracy competition in her CCW course with my P2000SK and had only shot it once before), she hates it. She now usually shoots a V3 and likes it much more (in both DA and SA).
There are a lot of opinions on the internet, and you just found one.:cray:
Seriously, the HK LEM is about as difficult to use as a door knob. I converted my HK45 from DA\SA to the LEM, and the learning curve has been about as steep as the great plains.The reset is slightly longer than a good Glock trigger, but IMNSHO if you're having difficulty shooting the LEM you're thinking too hard.
Now if someone doesn't like it that's a whole 'nuther story. Try as I might, I have not been able to get myself to master the standard DA\SA trigger system. I just don't like it.
Wouldn't shooting a LEM like a traditional DA just screw you up more since the slack is around 1 pound, and the break is 5-8lbs? I only have a little bit of time on an LEM system, but the Glock method seemed like it would be the best way to use that trigger system.
warpedcamshaft
08-01-13, 20:41
Wouldn't shooting a LEM like a traditional DA just screw you up more since the slack is around 1 pound, and the break is 5-8lbs? I only have a little bit of time on an LEM system, but the Glock method seemed like it would be the best way to use that trigger system.
The way I think of it is just to keep the trigger moving rearward constantly instead of a prep and then a press.
I tried to "hump the bump", but I did very poorly on timed drills at 25 yards (Kyle Defoor Pistol Test #2) and even pulled shots off the 3x5 during a FAST drill. Move to a Glock, PPQ, etc, and I was doing great.
Immediately after changing my technique and mentality with the trigger, I noticed a drastic increase in my accuracy and have cleaned the Defoor Pistol Test #2 many times. Now I think the LEM is great!
I want to reiterate... If you are just slowfiring and not running drills or standards on a shot timer... Things may be different. However, I found that the wheels were coming off on the timer and changing my technique was like flipping a switch.
Your mileage may vary.
warpedcamshaft
08-01-13, 20:45
Also, the LEM trigger changes A LOT after about 500 - 1000 rounds. The final break gets smoother and easier to just roll on through.
I should have also mentioned that my comments are all related to the "light LEM" in P30's.
Coal Dragger
08-01-13, 22:17
The way I think of it is just to keep the trigger moving rearward constantly instead of a prep and then a press.
I tried to "hump the bump", but I did very poorly on timed drills at 25 yards (Kyle Defoor Pistol Test #2) and even pulled shots off the 3x5 during a FAST drill. Move to a Glock, PPQ, etc, and I was doing great.
Immediately after changing my technique and mentality with the trigger, I noticed a drastic increase in my accuracy and have cleaned the Defoor Pistol Test #2 many times. Now I think the LEM is great!
I want to reiterate... If you are just slowfiring and not running drills or standards on a shot timer... Things may be different. However, I found that the wheels were coming off on the timer and changing my technique was like flipping a switch.
Your mileage may vary.
Are you rolling through the trigger for every shot, or just the first shot and then riding the reset (as much as this is possible with this trigger) for subsequent shots?
I have played with dry firing a P30 LEM and can see using the trigger either way, I didn't notice much deviation of my sight picture when rolling through quickly to a trigger break so I can see this as a viable method when shooting quickly. I do have to admit that as a 1911 guy, staging the trigger and using it like a single action would be tempting for me on any kind of careful shooting.
Snake Plissken
08-01-13, 22:20
Because it's a shitty trigger with a very long reset, long takeup, and offers no benefit over standard DA/SA unless you are unable to carry cocked or just manage the one DA pull. Yet due to competent persons in management of military and law enforcement, shit triggers are in demand. With the NY Glock trigger, the Sig DAO, and the Beretta DAO, you'll find the H&K LEM sitting cozy with its disfigured brethren.
I started with revolvers and a DAO Beretta 96. From that to CZ DA/SA, Sig DA/SA, Rugers, S&W DA/SA and strikers, etc....to my current PPQ, the P2000 with LEM was the worst pistol I've ever owned. Even after a modest ~1k through it, it was still an utter chore to control that trigger when shooting any faster than old people ****ing.
warpedcamshaft
08-01-13, 22:32
Are you rolling through the trigger for every shot, or just the first shot and then riding the reset (as much as this is possible with this trigger) for subsequent shots?
I have played with dry firing a P30 LEM and can see using the trigger either way, I didn't notice much deviation of my sight picture when rolling through quickly to a trigger break so I can see this as a viable method when shooting quickly. I do have to admit that as a 1911 guy, staging the trigger and using it like a single action would be tempting for me on any kind of careful shooting.
I roll through every shot and do not ride the reset. Trying to ride the reset on the LEM doesn't work for me and I generally don't do it.
Using the reset on any pistol under stress requires a lot of practice. Pulling up to the break seems to lead to "now!" shooting, which results in pulling shots off target from jerking the trigger. I can see that the LEM trigger is not forgiving to this method of trigger control, but I was brought up on the "surprise break" on rifles, so a smooth pull from start to finish feels right to me.
A little bit off topic, but I think it relates directly to this "issue" of the P30/LEM trigger being difficult for some people, among other triggers that have a longer travel.
Not too long ago I took some advice that I had been hearing about not bothering to detect trigger reset and just letting the trigger all the way out. I also tried out some advice from an article I had read either by John McPhee or written by a student in an AAR of a class that advocated not worrying so much about trigger pull, as it was overrated, and worrying more about getting the sights lined up, on target, and keeping them that way. Previously I had been using a G19 and had become accustomed to waiting for the reset each shot.
I took it out to the range the first time and it felt slow at first doing some slow fire. Then I tried to speed it up and it actually felt faster and smoother. What I realized is that I was no longer anticipating or waiting for my trigger as there was no need to detect or notice anything about the trigger. I was simply taking it all the way out and back in. I knew what I was doing and it was pretty hard to mess up (I know some of you have had the jittery quick pull or paused way too long waiting for a reset, at least I have more than a few times).
I tried this with my friend's newly acquired P30 about a month or two ago now, and I had no problems with the trigger like many complain of. Yet when I tried the manual reset, I got pauses and interruptions in my shots. My opinion is that people coming from Glocks and who have trained to shoot from reset to try and get more of that "single action" feel from their triggers are the problem more than the gun itself or its trigger is.
My opinion is that people coming from Glocks and who have trained to shoot from reset to try and get more of that "single action" feel from their triggers are the problem more than the gun itself or its trigger is.
I think this is the main issue here. I shoot 1911's and Glocks equally well because I can 'ride the reset' on both types of triggers. With the HK LEM I have found that I have to shoot it like a DA revolver trigger, which is letting it all the way out and ignoring the reset. I'd describe it as 'riding the recoil' because while I'm letting the gun recoil. While the pistol is still moving I'm working the trigger all the way out, and then back to the break. By the time the sights are back on target I'm ready to fire.
I've yet to 'double' or have an unanticipated second shot from working the trigger in the above manner. For me the cadence of fire\recoil\reset\re-fire is actually fairly slow and and very controllable.
Rayrevolver
08-03-13, 13:23
New P30L V1 LEM owner here. 200 rounds down range prior to todays IDPA Match. Now up to 273 total rounds.
First off, would you mind giving a frame of reference for how skilled of a shooter you are?
My stats:
SSP Sharp Shooter 2012 136.12 (Stock G34, Trij HD)
SSP Marksmen 2011 154.93 (Stock M&P9Pro)
I am C class USPSA shooter, I think. To be honest, I ended up with the P30L by accident. My plan is to shoot only the P30L until maybe 4-5000 rounds and see if I want to keep it or go back to the G34.
The only time I get to use a timer is at a match. I need a timer, I know.
Feels like I am working the LEM more while the gun is recoiling in order to prep the trigger. So yes, I am still shooting it like a Glock or M&P. I think that is the biggest issue and the thing I need to get used to. I might try to let it fully reset between shots next time at the range, but that sounds absolutely crazy to me!
In todays match I only short stroked the trigger once, no unplanned doubles or anything. The final stage I felt like I was able to hammer 2 rounds with a decent split (for me).
I completely missed 2 out 6 shots on the move from about 15 yards. Its been a long time since I have done that. I don't know if it was the trigger, the crappy stock sights, or my crappy performance. Probably me, although I do want to get new sights.
The LEM trigger is on our issued pistols and it is the only formal pistol training I ever received. I have yet to master it but the way it was taught to us at FLETC was to come to "the wall" and then press versus shooting it like a revolver or other longer DA pull all the way through. Myself and many others have had premature hammer falls on target with this method at one point or another, especially under stress drills or qualifications. Even the above average shooters we have at work have some difficulty in getting fast multiple shots from this system.
Psalms144.1
08-03-13, 23:12
I have EXTENSIVE experience and training using Glock triggers, and am a recent learner of the LEM. Personally, I don't see what the complaining is about. If you're "doubling" unintentionally on the LEM, you'd DEFINITELY be out of control with a striker fired or single action trigger's shorter, lighter reset. I personally think the cadre at FLETC are doing a disservice if they're teaching to "stage" the LEM trigger - that was an unsafe and inefficient technique with DA revolvers, not sure why anyone would think it would be a good idea now.
For me, after about 1,000 dry fire iterations with SPARSE live fire in between, I can "run" my P2000 or P30 at the same pace (measured with a timer, not just by "feel") that I can my Glocks when going for raw speed. Where the LEM comes into its own, IMHO, is being mated to inherently accurate pistols - I can literally shot rings around my Glock targets with either the P2000 or P30; especially at longer ranges. More importantly, my hit rates on low percentage (precision) shots has increased dramatically, and I feel I have a much better intuitive grasp of when a shot is "good" with the LEM.
I agree that the LEM, like every other DAO trigger out there, was an answer to a question that no competitive shooter ever asked. But, that doesn't make it a bad trigger system, or hard to run for anyone who's willing to take it for what it is and make it work. And, quite frankly, after the number of times I've had to stop "law enforcement professionals" (I'm a Federal LE Firearms trainer) from holstering DA/SA pistols that were still hammer-back; or with their fingers in or dangerously close to the trigger guard of SF pistols, I think the LEM is a pretty damned good compromise.
Regards,
Kevin
Because it's a shitty trigger with a very long reset, long takeup, and offers no benefit over standard DA/SA unless you are unable to carry cocked or just manage the one DA pull. Yet due to competent persons in management of military and law enforcement, shit triggers are in demand. With the NY Glock trigger, the Sig DAO, and the Beretta DAO, you'll find the H&K LEM sitting cozy with its disfigured brethren.
I started with revolvers and a DAO Beretta 96. From that to CZ DA/SA, Sig DA/SA, Rugers, S&W DA/SA and strikers, etc....to my current PPQ, the P2000 with LEM was the worst pistol I've ever owned. Even after a modest ~1k through it, it was still an utter chore to control that trigger when shooting any faster than old people ****ing.
Its obvious that you have never fired a USP LEM or HK45/45C LEM or you would not have posted your gripe. Not all LEM triggers are created equal... The P2000/P30 series met a contract requirement for take up and reset, the USP and HK45 series did not and feature a reset on par with Glock's reset. Add a little of the match parts into the mix and you will end up being impressed.
I have to agree that my 45c has a much better reset and fill then my old P30 had. I also have to say that one of the biggest upsides of the LEM kit is it removes the safety lever from the 45 with allows a higher more comfortable high thumb grip (though this is not an issue on the p30 or p2000)
Its obvious that you have never fired a USP LEM or HK45/45C LEM or you would not have posted your gripe. Not all LEM triggers are created equal... The P2000/P30 series met a contract requirement for take up and reset, the USP and HK45 series did not and feature a reset on par with Glock's reset. Add a little of the match parts into the mix and you will end up being impressed.
kantstudien
08-05-13, 01:00
The P2000/P30 series met a contract requirement for take up and reset, the USP and HK45 series did not and feature a reset on par with Glock's reset. Add a little of the match parts into the mix and you will end up being impressed.
Which match parts do you suggest adding to a HK45C? I'm about to do a LEM conversion, just want to do it right the first time. Thanks
beschatten
08-05-13, 09:44
Hilton Yam/Tim Lau posted something similar to what everybody else has been saying in this thread - don't 'look' for the reset. Once you finish your pull, let the trigger go all the way back and start pulling it back immediately while in recoil. By the time the gun is back down you're ready for the next shot. 'Quickly prep the trigger so you can have a little more time for the actual break' or something along those lines.
I think it was posted because Tim Lau uses an M&P without the APEX kit, and people were bugging him about how he shoots so well when the M&P has no distinct reset. Forgive me if my information is incorrect.
I find that this method much more simple than 'looking' for the reset. It's distracting to look or feel for a reset. It's easier to understand your guns particular trigger pull and learn to fall into a rhythm while having your finger continuously move.
Just did one of these and I didn't use the hammer spring or the trigger reset spring they sent in the kit. This allows for a lighter LEM. Basically it was the LEM sear, hammer, cocking piece and the cocking piece spring. Look at the hkpro forums for a good list of what to use.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/172503-individual-lem-part-numbers.html
Which match parts do you suggest adding to a HK45C? I'm about to do a LEM conversion, just want to do it right the first time. Thanks
Which match parts do you suggest adding to a HK45C? I'm about to do a LEM conversion, just want to do it right the first time. Thanks
I use the following recipe:
LEM:
1. Sear (219439)
2. Cocking Piece (219443)
3. Bobbed Hammer (219452)
4. Hammer Axle (214258)
5. Cocking Piece Spring (219444)
7. Heavy TRS (219441)
8. Heavy HS - HK45c only - shorter spring (234460)
9. Heavy HS - USP, HK45, USPc - longer spring (214695)
DA/SA:
10. V1 (DA/SA) FPBS (209296)
Match:
6. Nickel Plated Flat Sear Spring (215691)
This has yielded a glass-rod like 5.5lb break with a sharp & short reset and is one of the best triggers you can setup for your H&K USP / HK45 / HK45c... I hope this helps.
kantstudien
08-05-13, 19:06
Excellent information, thank you gentlemen
A little bit off topic, but I think it relates directly to this "issue" of the P30/LEM trigger being difficult for some people, among other triggers that have a longer travel.
Not too long ago I took some advice that I had been hearing about not bothering to detect trigger reset and just letting the trigger all the way out. I also tried out some advice from an article I had read either by John McPhee or written by a student in an AAR of a class that advocated not worrying so much about trigger pull, as it was overrated, and worrying more about getting the sights lined up, on target, and keeping them that way. Previously I had been using a G19 and had become accustomed to waiting for the reset each shot.
I took it out to the range the first time and it felt slow at first doing some slow fire. Then I tried to speed it up and it actually felt faster and smoother. What I realized is that I was no longer anticipating or waiting for my trigger as there was no need to detect or notice anything about the trigger. I was simply taking it all the way out and back in. I knew what I was doing and it was pretty hard to mess up (I know some of you have had the jittery quick pull or paused way too long waiting for a reset, at least I have more than a few times).
I tried this with my friend's newly acquired P30 about a month or two ago now, and I had no problems with the trigger like many complain of. Yet when I tried the manual reset, I got pauses and interruptions in my shots. My opinion is that people coming from Glocks and who have trained to shoot from reset to try and get more of that "single action" feel from their triggers are the problem more than the gun itself or its trigger is.
People that shoot to "Reset" instead of "Recovery" will always struggle with shooting fast (accurately) as they cannot get into a Rhythm.
C4
kantstudien
08-05-13, 23:51
People that shoot to "Reset" instead of "Recovery" will always struggle with shooting fast (accurately) as they cannot get into a Rhythm.
C4
Grant, could you elaborate the distinction between recovery and reset. I'm failing to see how letting the trigger all the way out (instead of just to reset) and then needing to take up all the slack again would be faster than just shooting from reset?
I'm specifically thinking of the Glock platform, but if your technique is applicable to all platforms I would be willing to adopt it.
Are there problems with "short-stroking" a LEM trigger like a double-action revolver?
Thanks in advance
Grant, could you elaborate the distinction between recovery and reset. I'm failing to see how letting the trigger all the way out (instead of just to reset) and then needing to take up all the slack again would be faster than just shooting from reset?
I'm specifically thinking of the Glock platform, but if your technique is applicable to all platforms I would be willing to adopt it.
Are there problems with "short-stroking" a LEM trigger like a double-action revolver?
Thanks in advance
I will try. If I may pick on Glock shooters for a moment, most of them learn to shoot this gun via slow fire. They pull the trigger and then hold the trigger to the rear until the sights settle back onto their target. Then they slowly let out the trigger until they hear/feel the Glock hard reset. They practice this over and over and over until it is fully engrained into them.
For whatever reason, Glock shooters treat the hard reset on the gun as the "holy grail" and would sooner jump off a cliff than let the trigger go PAST the reset point. What ends up happening is that they are constantly looking/feeling for it and never learn to shoot in a Rhythm.
Shooting the trigger to recovery simply means that you go past the reset point and are NOT looking for the reset point. This does NOT make you shoot any slower and will fix many of ones problems.
My personal opinion (as a Glock owner, shooter, armorer and dealer) is that the Glock is the HARDEST polymer pistol to shoot WELL. The two main reasons are:
1. Grip angle. Causes right handed shooters to push rounds to the left or high left (exact opposite for lefties).
2. The hard reset makes people look for it while attempting to shoot fast. This causes them to shoot out of Rhythm and never shoot fast AND accurate.
One of the best things I ever did was buy an early S&W M&P. The reason is because the trigger had ZERO reset. While many people think that this is a bad thing, the opposite is actually true. Since I could never find the reset point, I had to shoot to trigger "recovery." Then, when I started shooting Glock's again, I had zero trigger issues.
For you Glock shooters, give this drill a try. It is called the 10/10/10 drill. Shoot 10rds in 10 seconds at 10yrds on an NRA B8 target. Passing score is 90 or above. This drill will kill people with trigger reset issues.
Target can be downloaded here: https://8fca1b8d-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/gonzotargets/nra/gonzo_B8.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpbauCk5fFzYq6FNYSBSVw3100JtEfWpmWFJy4aiNDQuLa62m40oB8UAtFr_JNH8BVDxgVygCAwxQYmiA-kZzB4s2ccXwtWl2aoA8pI5hHb38QyJ4T09aLkjTuKyh4Oq6wmV1qKmTgEhqq8G4J5byb5Gcd9vdy-6KnrLQcFiUTzYsycetiFCbolNLik8HLpztAScocMwiHOtRsSbYKxyMuA6aVwqg%3D%3D&attredirects=0
C4
I shoot LEM for over 10 years now. P2000 V0 was actually my first own ceterfire pistol. Before I owned only .22lr target pistol with great, adjustable trigger (Haemmerli SP20 RRS). Before getting into LEM, I was shooting mostly G17, FS92, CZ 75B and P99AS. For me LEM was love from first sight, that lasted about 500 rounds. Then it went into pure hatred for next 1500-2000 rounds. Long, light (V0 is light LEM) trigger pull made me jerk trigger. Later I learned, that going to heavier trigger return spring made it less of a problem. Now I have two different ways to use LEM trigger. When shooting fast, I do not care about reset point or staging trigger. I pull trough and let trigger forward (almost) all the way, working trigger on recovery. When I went back to shooting LEM from using custom 1911 trigger for several years, initially I had some occasional issues of short stroking trigger. When I shoot for accuracy (distant targets or more difficult shots to make), I stage trigger to make it into SA-like mode, break a shot, then after recovery I let it go for reset. But it is slow, carefully aimed fire.
I managed to get IDPA EX in SSP shooting LEM equipped P30L and P2000SK, so it is possible to shoot LEM reasonably fast and reasonably accurate even by average shooter.
For some time, when I was shooting HK USP Expert in IPSC Standard (USPSA Limited equivalent), I converted it from SA/DA trigger to LEM trigger, because LEM still was more comfortably for me to shoot, than.
beschatten
08-06-13, 09:58
For whatever reason, Glock shooters treat the hard reset on the gun as the "holy grail" and would sooner jump off a cliff than let the trigger go PAST the reset point. What ends up happening is that they are constantly looking/feeling for it and never learn to shoot in a Rhythm.
C4
Well said. Grant hit the nail on the head.
Here is the link to the article I was speaking of: http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=2518
Tim Lau goes in depth on what Grant said, and has a video of it as well.
Any trigger can be mastered, it is just that some (1911type vs the rest) are more easily learned and mastered than others, IMHO. trigger break weight, over travel,and grip angle are also factors when shooting fast and accurately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bWEnIJ3VUOQ
Because common sense isn't common.
People over think it, that's why. They dry fire a LEM and say "the trigger pull gets harder on the second pull..."
Ah yeah, dry fire a 1911 and tell me how smooth the second trigger pull is... Or a Glock, or M&P... Oh yeah, you won't get a second trigger pull if you don't CYCLE the slide.... :rolleyes:
Thanks, Grant. That was very informative. I recently bought a Glock 19 and noticed my accuracy has gone up quite a bit since I last used a Glock. I have been focusing on ignoring the break and reset just like shooting an LEM.
Because it's a shitty trigger with a very long reset, long takeup, and offers no benefit over standard DA/SA unless you are unable to carry cocked or just manage the one DA pull. Yet due to competent persons in management of military and law enforcement, shit triggers are in demand. With the NY Glock trigger, the Sig DAO, and the Beretta DAO, you'll find the H&K LEM sitting cozy with its disfigured brethren.
I started with revolvers and a DAO Beretta 96. From that to CZ DA/SA, Sig DA/SA, Rugers, S&W DA/SA and strikers, etc....to my current PPQ, the P2000 with LEM was the worst pistol I've ever owned. Even after a modest ~1k through it, it was still an utter chore to control that trigger when shooting any faster than old people ****ing.
Someone just lost all sorts of credibility.
Grant explains it very well. Anyone with any amount of experience other than only gLoCk can shoot the LEM just dandy. Calc4 or differential equations it is not.
I have a variety of pistols brands and most of them have different trigger peculiarities. I adapt.
They dry fire a LEM and say "the trigger pull gets harder on the second pull..." Funny you should mention that.....I self converted my P2KSK to Light LEM and actually thought I did something wrong until I figured out I should rack the slide before dry firing to feel the actual trigger pull. Felt like a complete idiot.
Alaskapopo
08-06-13, 20:47
The LEM trigger can be learned but its a handicap to fast and accurate shooting. If it were that good you would see people using them in the shooting sports like, IDPA, USPSA, and three gun and they are absent. Its a trigger designed by attorneys not shooters.
Pat
Psalms144.1
08-06-13, 21:06
The LEM trigger can be learned but its a handicap to fast and accurate shooting. If it were that good you would see people using them in the shooting sports like, IDPA, USPSA, and three gun and they are absent. Its a trigger designed by attorneys not shooters.
PatNext up on the "if it ain't Glock it's CRAAP" channel...
Seriously, I can carry a wide variety of handguns for work. I CHOOSE to run a P2000 LEM over a G19 because, in timed drills, both accuracy and raw speed intensive, there's simply not enough measurable difference in speed (.005-.01 seconds split times) between the two platforms.
And, as mentioned before, my accuracy with the shorter barreled/shorter sight radiused P2000 is markedly better on low probability shots than I've ever experienced with any of my Glocks, even after literally 10s, if not 100s of thousands of rounds of training with various Glocks over the last two-and-a-half decades.
We'll now return you to your regularly scheduled "everything not striker fired will get you killed" programming.
Regards,
Kevin
Popularity isn't always an indicator of what's "better" in the firearms world.
Alaskapopo
08-06-13, 22:07
Next up on the "if it ain't Glock it's CRAAP" channel...
Seriously, I can carry a wide variety of handguns for work. I CHOOSE to run a P2000 LEM over a G19 because, in timed drills, both accuracy and raw speed intensive, there's simply not enough measurable difference in speed (.005-.01 seconds split times) between the two platforms.
And, as mentioned before, my accuracy with the shorter barreled/shorter sight radiused P2000 is markedly better on low probability shots than I've ever experienced with any of my Glocks, even after literally 10s, if not 100s of thousands of rounds of training with various Glocks over the last two-and-a-half decades.
We'll now return you to your regularly scheduled "everything not striker fired will get you killed" programming.
Regards,
Kevin
No there are other guns with good triggers. 1911's have the best. M&Ps and XD's are better and the PPQ is really good. But having a trigger that is longer and heavier slows you down period.
Pat
Light lem is 4.5lbs and as I understand you press the trigger as you press the gun out resulting in a 4.5lb clean break at the moment you are extended and on target. When you reset you don't let the trigger slack all the way out. In reality the light lem is no heavier and not really longer than most other triggers but offers some advantages over most other trigger options.
Alaskapopo
08-07-13, 00:18
Light lem is 4.5lbs and as I understand you press the trigger as you press the gun out resulting in a 4.5lb clean break at the moment you are extended and on target. When you reset you don't let the trigger slack all the way out. In reality the light lem is no heavier and not really longer than most other triggers but offers some advantages over most other trigger options.
Glad they made it lighter but it still longer. I just don't see any advantages. I want short crisp and light.
Pat
Glad they made it lighter but it still longer. I just don't see any advantages. I want short crisp and light.
Pat
We already know that. You did not fail to mention your distaste with anything HK in every thread. So there is a guy who do not like HK trigger. We got it.
Alaskapopo
08-07-13, 04:07
We already know that. You did not fail to mention your distaste with anything HK in every thread. So there is a guy who do not like HK trigger. We got it.
You also seem to share your positive opinion on it. Its a wonderful thing that we both are allowed to share our views isn't it.
Pat
warpedcamshaft
08-07-13, 08:19
My personal observations with the Lem trigger/P30 are thus (I've directly compared quite a few pistols):
1: My splits on larger targets at closer ranges are slower than almost all other polymer service pistols. (Around .19 is where I hover on A zones or 8 inch circles.
2: My splits on smaller targets are usually faster than other polymer pistols, and I am sometimes surprised by how precise my hits are at speed. (For example, while shooting an LAPD Modified Swat Qual 7 yard failure drill 3 times, my headshots will be in a group you can cover with a quarter. This has happened multiple times.) There is something about the smooth roll of the trigger that seems to help here.
3: The LEM requires continuous rearward pressure while ignoring any changes in trigger weight during the press... If I try to stage the trigger or prep to a certain spot and then break the shot, things do not go well.
4: The LEM had a sharp learning curve.
5: I could see how several aspects of the HK p30 override some of problems some individuals have with the LEM triggers.
warpedcamshaft
08-07-13, 08:25
Also, for people who don't dig the LEM, you could probably start calling it the LEMon trigger...
Sorry, thought that was funny.
brickboy240
08-07-13, 10:17
I recently got to borrow a P-30 with the light LEM trigger.
Came away thinking it was very odd-feeling and since I am already heavily invested in Glocks and a few older SIGs...I think I will stay away from it.
If you were to ONLY carry pistols with this trigger system, I could see its advantages.
I also thought the P30 was a really accurate and well made pistol that shot well but the learning curve on the LEM is too steep for a casual user like me. If I ever bought an HK pistol....I'd probably opt for traditional d/a-s/a so it mimics my SIGs.
Nice system for someone else...just not for me.
-brickboy240
PS: If the P30 was striker fired and had a trigger system like the PPQ...I might have dumped my G19 and G17 for it. Very nice shooter...but the trigger is a deal killer for me, personally.
You also seem to share your positive opinion on it. Its a wonderful thing that we both are allowed to share our views isn't it.
Pat
In case you missed topic title, question is 'why are HK LEM triggers "hard to learn"?'. Not "why HK triggers are bad". This is subltle difference, I know.
Alaskapopo
08-08-13, 05:27
In case you missed topic title, question is 'why are HK LEM triggers "hard to learn"?'. Not "why HK triggers are bad". This is subltle difference, I know.
Bad triggers are harder to learn.
Pat
beschatten
08-08-13, 11:40
Bad triggers are harder to learn.
Pat
'Good' and 'bad' are subjective to the user.
PS: If the P30 was striker fired and had a trigger system like the PPQ...I might have dumped my G19 and G17 for it. Very nice shooter...but the trigger is a deal killer for me, personally.
I've yet to understand peoples obsession, or rather demand, for striker fired over hammer fired. It works on Glock and a number of other pistols, but that doesn't mean every subsequent pistol has to follow in its lead or copy it. I think a lot of it has to do with obsessing over things like "bore axis" or seeing hammers as being old technology. Either way, I see no benefit in making a P30 striker fired any more than I do in making a Glock hammer fired.
As for the trigger, it could certainly be improved, but you could say that about any handgun that isn't a tuned 1911 and at the end of the day someone will still whine that it's not as good no matter how much you do to it simply because it's "not the same."
I suggest crying less about why an H&K isn't a Glock and how you can't shoot it as fast or as well and focusing more on just actually learning to shoot it.
Light lem is 4.5lbs and as I understand you press the trigger as you press the gun out resulting in a 4.5lb clean break at the moment you are extended and on target. When you reset you don't let the trigger slack all the way out. In reality the light lem is no heavier and not really longer than most other triggers but offers some advantages over most other trigger options.
Not to rain on your parade, but light LEM is crap compared to the 5.5lb Match / LEM hybrid setup I posted about earlier. I can say this as I have lots of trigger time with both. Same thing has been said by some of my buddies that shoot Glocks & M&Ps; they all gripe that H&K triggers suck until I put one of my H&Ks in their hand and have them try it out. They can't believe the break / reset and sit there dumbfounded hand cycling the slide in continuous amazement. Then after shooting they don't want to give it back. I need to figure out a way to educate people so they can help spread the word. Say it with me, LIGHT LEM is bad. HEAVY LEM is OK. MATCH LEM HYBRID is spectacular. Now this applies to the H&K USP / HK45 / HK45C series, the P2000 / P30 have very long resets by design. They can be cleaned up with some of the same changes but the reset length will stay. And to respond to the OP they are hard to learn because people don't take the time to learn them...
Here it is again, try it out if you are serious about H&Ks...
I use the following recipe:
LEM:
1. Sear (219439)
2. Cocking Piece (219443)
3. Bobbed Hammer (219452)
4. Hammer Axle (214258)
5. Cocking Piece Spring (219444)
7. Heavy TRS (219441)
8. Heavy HS - HK45c only - shorter spring (234460)
9. Heavy HS - USP, HK45, USPc - longer spring (214695)
DA/SA:
10. V1 (DA/SA) FPBS (209296)
Match:
6. Nickel Plated Flat Sear Spring (215691)
This has yielded a glass-rod like 5.5lb break with a sharp & short reset and is one of the best triggers you can setup for your H&K USP / HK45 / HK45c...
Not to rain on your parade, but light LEM is crap compared to the 5.5lb Match / LEM hybrid setup I posted about earlier. I can say this as I have lots of trigger time with both. Same thing has been said by some of my buddies that shoot Glocks & M&Ps; they all gripe that H&K triggers suck until I put one of my H&Ks in their hand and have them try it out. They can't believe the break / reset and sit there dumbfounded hand cycling the slide in continuous amazement. Then after shooting they don't want to give it back. I need to figure out a way to educate people so they can help spread the word. Say it with me, LIGHT LEM is bad. HEAVY LEM is OK. MATCH LEM HYBRID is spectacular. Now this applies to the H&K USP / HK45 / HK45C series, the P2000 / P30 have very long resets by design. They can be cleaned up with some of the same changes but the reset length will stay. And to respond to the OP they are hard to learn because people don't take the time to learn them...
Here it is again, try it out if you are serious about H&Ks...
I use the following recipe:
LEM:
1. Sear (219439)
2. Cocking Piece (219443)
3. Bobbed Hammer (219452)
4. Hammer Axle (214258)
5. Cocking Piece Spring (219444)
7. Heavy TRS (219441)
8. Heavy HS - HK45c only - shorter spring (234460)
9. Heavy HS - USP, HK45, USPc - longer spring (214695)
DA/SA:
10. V1 (DA/SA) FPBS (209296)
Match:
6. Nickel Plated Flat Sear Spring (215691)
This has yielded a glass-rod like 5.5lb break with a sharp & short reset and is one of the best triggers you can setup for your H&K USP / HK45 / HK45c...
Sounds good but I don't have a bone in the LEM fight honestly. I was mearly stating that the light LEM can't be considered a "heavy" trigger pull if its pull weight is only 4.5lbs in relation to Alaskapopo refering to it as "longer and heavier" the first being correct.
LightningFast
08-09-13, 00:51
Someone just lost all sorts of credibility.
Yeah, the honor of HK pistols is really preserved by user name "HKGuns" coming to their rescue.
Alaskapopo
08-09-13, 01:04
Yeah, the honor of HK pistols is really preserved by user name "HKGuns" coming to their rescue.
Lol just about spit on my computer from laughing at that one. Right on the mark.
Pat
titsonritz
08-09-13, 03:12
Why are HK LEM triggers "hard to learn"?
Because they cost two & half times more than a Glock and therefore should be two & half times more difficult to learn. :jester:
hotrodder636
08-09-13, 04:54
Not to rain on your parade, but light LEM is crap compared to the 5.5lb Match / LEM hybrid setup I posted about earlier. I can say this as I have lots of trigger time with both. Same thing has been said by some of my buddies that shoot Glocks & M&Ps; they all gripe that H&K triggers suck until I put one of my H&Ks in their hand and have them try it out. They can't believe the break / reset and sit there dumbfounded hand cycling the slide in continuous amazement. Then after shooting they don't want to give it back. I need to figure out a way to educate people so they can help spread the word. Say it with me, LIGHT LEM is bad. HEAVY LEM is OK. MATCH LEM HYBRID is spectacular. Now this applies to the H&K USP / HK45 / HK45C series, the P2000 / P30 have very long resets by design. They can be cleaned up with some of the same changes but the reset length will stay. And to respond to the OP they are hard to learn because people don't take the time to learn them...
Here it is again, try it out if you are serious about H&Ks...
I use the following recipe:
LEM:
1. Sear (219439)
2. Cocking Piece (219443)
3. Bobbed Hammer (219452)
4. Hammer Axle (214258)
5. Cocking Piece Spring (219444)
7. Heavy TRS (219441)
8. Heavy HS - HK45c only - shorter spring (234460)
9. Heavy HS - USP, HK45, USPc - longer spring (214695)
DA/SA:
10. V1 (DA/SA) FPBS (209296)
Match:
6. Nickel Plated Flat Sear Spring (215691)
This has yielded a glass-rod like 5.5lb break with a sharp & short reset and is one of the best triggers you can setup for your H&K USP / HK45 / HK45c...
Have you tried this on an HK45? Can this be reversed back to factory easily? Any permanent changes to the pistol made? Curious as I h as no experience with LEM on any of my 4 HKs. Thank you
Tried it on an HK45? Does 12,000+ rounds on my HK45 setup this way count? Every component is drop in, so nothing permanent happens besides the grin you will get after the conversion.
hotrodder636
08-09-13, 06:19
Tried it on an HK45? Does 12,000+ rounds on my HK45 setup this way count? Every component is drop in, so nothing permanent happens besides the grin you will get after the conversion.
Only a measly 12k? LOL! Yeah I would think that qualifies! Thank you for the feedback. Any tip on where to source the parts from? HKParts.net?
I buy parts direct from H&K although I have purchased from HKParts before if the price difference was negligible.
Because they cost two & half times more than a Glock and therefore should be two & half times more difficult to learn. :jester:
Actually it is great deal, because is is five times as hard to learn for mere two & half times money. So basically you get 50% of learning difficulty for free! :big_boss:
Haaaaaa!
That's right Montrala!
Seriously though H&K needs to revamp the reset on the P30/P2000 pistols if they want to sell more here.
E-Man: How does your "Hybrid LEM" change the trigger? Is it more like a Glock?
beschatten
08-09-13, 16:10
E-Man: How does your "Hybrid LEM" change the trigger? Is it more like a Glock?
I'm going to take a wild guess (I have no armorer experience with H&K):
Sear (219439), Cocking Piece (219443), Bobbed Hammer (219452),
Hammer Axle (214258) create a shorter reset. The reset distance is probably shortened by mix and matching different parts. The springs swapped would manipulate the pull weight and the return time of the trigger. If it's a mix-match of heavier and lighter springs it's probably a balancing act to make it have an acceptable SD trigger pull.
When I pick up my own P30 I'll probably try this out. Which gun has better results with this? The HK45 or P30? I'm noticing specific HK45 parts but nothing specific for the P30??
E-Man: How does your "Hybrid LEM" change the trigger? Is it more like a Glock?
The reset is like a Glock on the USP / HK45 / HK45C series with this setup. (I think it's a little cleaner) The P30 / P2000 series suffer from a long reset and can't be shortened at this time with drop in parts.
For P30/P30L
LEM:
1. Release Catch - aka Sear (209320)
2. Cocking Piece (209265)
3. Bobbed Hammer (209321)
5. Cocking Piece Spring (209275)
7. Heavy TRS (234405)
9. Heavy HS (214695)
DA/SA:
4. Hammer Axle (209272)
8. Control Lever - aka Control Latch (209274)
10. Light FPBS (209296)
Match:
6. Nickel Plated Flat Sear Spring (215691)
Be advised converting a DA/SA P30 or P2000 leaves a small open area where the de-cocker slot was milled in the frame. If you don't care drive on, but H&K does not officially support LEM converted P30 / P2000 pistols. I did it and the open slot bothered me as a possible entry point for debris so I converted mine back to DA/SA and sold them off only to replace them with factory LEM versions.
Yeah, the honor of HK pistols is really preserved by user name "HKGuns" coming to their rescue.
Wow, I guess you told me lightnin. If you have nothing constructive to add.......
This is what can be done !
Stock P30 LEM reset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxnvno0adSg&feature=youtu.be
Modified P30 LEM reset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2J9ZzIp7ig&feature=youtu.be
Modified USP LEM reset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBgk1H1UUEw
Modified catch? Sear engagement surface rework? (on the P30)
My HK45 / HK45c have a very short reset like in your USP vid.
babypanther
08-10-13, 11:56
I am issued a P2000 LEM for my work gun. Among other things, I have not been a huge fan of the trigger. I have shot a perfect qual score so I know that I can shoot, and I know that the gun itself is very accurate mechanically. Treating it as just a rolling break, pulling all the way back and not bothering about the mechanical reset is an interesting idea. Needless to say, that was NOT taught at the Academy. Up front, that would seem to simplify the trigger. I am very interested in that technique, and Ill have to give it a try.
Modified catch? Sear engagement surface rework? (on the P30)
My HK45 / HK45c have a very short reset like in your USP vid.
Just the control latch.
Just the control latch.
Firing pin block still functional?
Firing pin block still functional?
As designed. The modified control latch does not alter safety or have any function issues whatsoever.
As designed. The modified control latch does not alter safety or have any function issues whatsoever.
Care to share a secret? :ph34r:
ETA several years ago I did ultra short reset mod to my USP Expert, but it required removal of firing pin safety (allowed under IPSC Standard Division rules).
Psalms144.1
08-10-13, 17:36
And can the match trigger with over-travel stop and this magical catch be installed in a P2000?
And can the match trigger with over-travel stop and this magical catch be installed in a P2000?
Over-travel stop can be added to original trigger (USP match trigger does not fit compacts) and P2000 basically uses same trigger as P30, so I do not see why not.
And can the match trigger with over-travel stop and this magical catch be installed in a P2000?
Yes. but it's a magical control latch not the catch. As montrala stated you have to have your stock trigger drilled & tapped. Or buy another P2000 trigger and have it drilled.
Sorry I typed "catch" but meant "control latch."
My spider senses are tingling...
This is what can be done !
Stock P30 LEM reset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxnvno0adSg&feature=youtu.be
Modified P30 LEM reset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2J9ZzIp7ig&feature=youtu.be
Modified USP LEM reset
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBgk1H1UUEw
Was your gun sent out or did you do the work? If sent out, who did the work on the modified p30? i am interested in that. was that the match trigger?
I keep seeing this phrase brought up when it comes to HK pistols. I feel the opposite, however. I came to HK several years ago from shooting Glocks and Sigs. I found the LEM to similar to the Glock trigger, but with a slightly longer pull and reset. The Glock trigger is always touted as easy to use. Does the extra travel really make that much difference? Thoughts (specifically from people who teach new shooters)?
First of all, I can't really understand how you can compare a stock HK LEM trigger to a Glock trigger in any shape, form or fashion. For me, they are NOTHING alike.
If you want a quick answer to your question about the extra travel really making a difference and the Glock trigger is always touted as easy to use, just take a look at what the MASTER CLASS shooters are using. Here is a good starting point.
http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2012/04/20/Glock-and-SW-Make-Up-67-of-IDPA-World-Shoot-Guns.aspx
Please note the massive number of HKs used. :)
The LEM trigger has been out for how many years now??? How many shooters use them at the highest levels of competition? If the LEM is that good, these guys haven't got the memo or have poor reading comprehension. It's about the cost of the weapon some say!
In my observations, this same group of folks will spend their last dime finding the best equipment/advantage to help them win.
Sorry Grant, Top shooters around the world must have missed that memo as well. The one where you said "Glock is the HARDEST polymer pistol to shoot WELL".
Was your gun sent out or did you do the work? If sent out, who did the work on the modified p30? i am interested in that. was that the match trigger?
You can send the gun or just buy a control latch & stock P30 trigger(if modifing a P30) and send that and you will still have your stock parts. My gun never went anywhere.
Give Bill springfield a call.
Sorry for the dense post E-man trying to understand all this.
I'm suffering with my P2000 lem--I love everything about it except for the very loooong trigger pull which massively excaberates my shooting deficiencies.
I have a V2 lem which I changed to the suppose V4 "TLG" variant (adding the light Firing Pin Block Spring and a Light Hammer spring). It's better but I still struggle mightily with the trigger. So this hybrid won't work for my pistol? Are there parts I can add to improve the trigger even more? Apologize again--this is all very confusing.
Montreal--saw your blog post on the CDA. This works for the P2000?
The reset is like a Glock on the USP / HK45 / HK45C series with this setup. (I think it's a little cleaner) The P30 / P2000 series suffer from a long reset and can't be shortened at this time with drop in parts.
For P30/P30L
LEM:
1. Release Catch - aka Sear (209320)
2. Cocking Piece (209265)
3. Bobbed Hammer (209321)
5. Cocking Piece Spring (209275)
7. Heavy TRS (234405)
9. Heavy HS (214695)
DA/SA:
4. Hammer Axle (209272)
8. Control Lever - aka Control Latch (209274)
10. Light FPBS (209296)
Match:
6. Nickel Plated Flat Sear Spring (215691)
Be advised converting a DA/SA P30 or P2000 leaves a small open area where the de-cocker slot was milled in the frame. If you don't care drive on, but H&K does not officially support LEM converted P30 / P2000 pistols. I did it and the open slot bothered me as a possible entry point for debris so I converted mine back to DA/SA and sold them off only to replace them with factory LEM versions.
Montreal--saw your blog post on the CDA. This works for the P2000?
You mean Montrala? And V4.1 aka V4CH? Yes, it works for P2000.
You mean Montrala? And V4.1 aka V4CH? Yes, it works for P2000.
Haha--damn auto-correct!
Thanks!
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