View Full Version : Anyone else having hand/finger issues after running a vertical pistol grip???
***DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT THESE MORE VERTICAL PISTOL GRIP DESIGNS FROM UMBRELLA CORP OR BCM, ETC. ARE CAUSING ANY MEDICAL ISSUES OR EPIDEMICS. I'M JUST REPORTING WHAT I HAVE NOTICED AFTER RUNNING ONE FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD***
Just wondering if anyone else has experienced similar hand/finger pain after running one of the newer style vertical pistol grips that have come to the market in the last few years like the Umbrella Corp or the BCM?
I have been running an Umbrella Corp grip for the past 6 months or so and I began to notice that during/after each range session my strong/shooting hands middle finger 2nd joint gets swollen and painful. It got to the point where I had to have a cortisone injection due to a case of "Trigger Finger" where my middle finger will remain locked after I relax the rest of the fingers. It will then pop back out on its own: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/trigger-finger/DS00155
I was also very painful and stiff for several days after each (Carbine) range session, so due to the amount I shoot it was basically an every day issue for me.
Basically it is the same area affected by "Glock Knuckle". I can only assume that the more vertical angle of the grip which seems to rest all of the weapons rear weight directly onto the affected area (Middle finger/2nd knuckle) since there is little to no weight bearing on the top/web of the hand which might be causing the issue?
The cortisone shot has helped greatly and I have switched back to a softer grip with a more standard grip angle (ERGO) as well and have not had any issues over the past month.
Just for context I shoot a moderate amount of ammo thru my carbine and pistol every month. Typically 200-300rds per weapon system monthly.
My most extended experience was a 3 day pistol carbine course in which I ran carbine for the last 2 days of that. I fired about 1,200 rounds over the two days which were long. I've had no problems what-so-ever though.
ETA - I've had mine for over a year, that was just my longest time running it. Never any problems either way. Oh and mine is the BCM.
Nick,
I have both the Umbrella and BCM. They replaced my MIAD & MOE +. No problems like you mentioned but here is a wild guess.
If you have two rifles of similar weight. One with a standard angle A2 like grip. The other with the newer more vertical style. Hold both of them off shoulder with just your strong hand. I've noticed with the A2 style I have to apply more pressure with the palm (resting against the back strap) to keep the rifle level. The BCM/Umbrella grips do not require as much pressure to keep straight because it is more perpendicular to the bore. I struggle less manipulating the rifle one handed. Maybe by relieving the pressure off the back of my hand puts more on the front?
I am trying to word this to be clear in my description but doubt I am succeeding. Waiting for IG's "Way too much thinking going on in here" comment. ;)
I do notice more pressure on the middle joint with these new grips.
In simpler terms with an A2 style grip I balance the rifle more with the back of my hand. With the newer styles there is less pressure placed on the back strap and I have to balance the rifle more with the front strap and mostly by keeping pressure between my middle finger and trigger guard.
-Jax
I can see that...
I tried the more vertical grip and didn't like it because it made the rifle feel unbalanced when handling it. Ie: Going from ready/low-ready to high port, high port to ready, reloads, etc. The more vertical angle makes the gun feel top heavy.
The Magpul MOE is the perfect grip IMO.
JAXMAN7,
Thats exactly what I was thinking was contributing to it as well.
In all reality it's probably just me getting old and my type1 diabetes causing me issues (Had it since I was 11)....maybe a little vagisil rubbed on it might make it feel better:D
I just seemed odd that the pain and arthritic type stiffness along with the "Trigger Finger" came on so fast after switching to the Umbrella grip. Probably just all of the factors I listed are playing a role.
just a scout
08-01-13, 22:41
JAXMAN7,
Thats exactly what I was thinking was contributing to it as well.
In all reality it's probably just me getting old and my type1 diabetes causing me issues (Had it since I was 11)....maybe a little vagisil rubbed on it might make it feel better:D
I just seemed odd that the pain and arthritic type stiffness along with the "Trigger Finger" came on so fast after switching to the Umbrella grip. Probably just all of the factors I listed are playing a role.
Try doing finger yoga.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I can't help but feel that some of the new products out there are only different for marketing's sake. Not that it doesn't exist, but has anyone studied the ergonomics of firearms and come to the conclusion that a more vertical pistol grip is superior? If so, I haven't seen it. Pistol grips have been at relatively the same angles for a long time, and I'm inclined to believe that there's a reason for that. Would love to expand my horizons if someone has some good evidence to the contrary though.
Boba Fett v2
08-02-13, 01:26
I'm not a believer in the vertical pistol grip. I'd rather shoot with a standard A2. My ARs wear the MIAD.
I am thinking that this is similar to "Hammer Finger". Something we see in the automotive industry. You might want to look for a sports medicine Dr. Just a thought
I was diagnosed with "Trigger finger" and the common treatment is the cortisone injection or surgery if cortisone is not effective.
I use "vertical" pistol grip (HK416 grip and recently Stark) for last 4 years. Never had any problem with that and for me it actually is more comfortable than A2 or MIAD. However grip angle is strongly related to shooting position and stock length of pull. More vertical grips are better when using short length of pull and more frontal stance. For shooter that prefer bladed stance and use ntch with longer stock those grip angles help nothing or can even be less comfortable that MIAD or even A2 grips.
midSCarolina
08-02-13, 10:32
I was diagnosed with "Trigger finger" and the common treatment is the cortisone injection or surgery if cortisone is not effective.
I am not sure about why the more vert grip would cause this... probably a question for the doctor. I personally am not that really a fan of those grips... as jax said, although the pressure has come off the palm, it has to go somewhere... the rifle doesn't get lighter.
I would personally go with the surgery... cortisone's efficacy is questionable. It will work well at first and then start losing some of its effect. It delays the recovery process and makes you substantially more likely to relapse the injury. I am not a doctor so this is just my opinion based on other tendon/ligament/joint issues I have seen. I did go to undergrad wanting to do sports medicine and this was really what I loved until I decided that I wanted to go into the military. Sometimes the steel cure is the best cure if you cannot beat it through PT. Good luck
RogerinTPA
08-02-13, 11:28
Perform Bruce Lee style fingertip push ups on a regular basis...J/K :p. Honestly, I've never heard of or experienced that condition, but it is interesting. I have 3 ARs with either MOE or TD grips, and 2 with the BCM grips. The BCM grips feel more comfortable since the grip angle is more in line with the natural position of the hand, and is less fatiguing for me. I've never been one to apply a white knuckled death grip to the pistol grip. It's more of a neutral or slightly firm grip pressure, with the majority of the rearward tension of the gun being applied with the support hand via the VFG to help mitigate recoil. Do these effects carry over to the handgun? How were the effects when you switched back to a grip with a more conventional angle?
Try doing finger yoga.
The 'Finger Drill' in cadence......
All kidding aside I've been experiencing an arthtitic stiffness and sharp pain in the second finger if the ssme hand.
I've been putting in a lot of range time over the last month with my AR snd my pistols but I just chalked it up to my advancing years. I was like "what the f#$/ is time doing to me now".
Well guess what? I had switched to the BCM grip a few months ago and this is the first time I've really put some use on it. I doubt its just the grip but I wonder if the slight change in angle and all the shooting hss led yo a perfect storm of conditions.t
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zen_grasshopper
08-02-13, 19:40
I am the complete opposite. The more vertical BCM solved my problems. I developed DeQuervain's Tenosynovitis after a rifle course when my rifle was equipped with a Tango Down grip, the angle just caused tension and the swelling of the tendon would not subside. After 6 months of pain, and finally not being able to grip a gun I had to have surgery for a DeQuervain's release.
Everyone has different body types and shapes, so try a different angle grip, alter your stance a bit to change how pressure is applied, and change your stock position to change the angle on the grip and see if that helps.
Jon
Cagemonkey
08-02-13, 21:16
Not to be a Smart Ass, but I wish I could afford to fire that much ammo to experience such problems. BTW glad to see you back. You seemed to drop off the radar for a bit.
I've had the same thing happen to the same finger, same joint. I run the HK grip (basically the same as a BCM just no storage). I just kept using it until said finger formed a Callus. No problems now. Adding a new trigger guard did help a bit though.
I noticed a huge difference going from a Hogue grip to a MOE. The Hogue had a much more pronounced angle compared to the MOE and this made me have to crank my hand down to keep everything in line. This in turn placed more pressure on my middle and trigger finger. I can only imagine that it's better with a grip more vertical than the MOE, however I have not tried any yet.
how short do you have your stock collapsed?..
Thanks, but wrong hand. I'm talking about the shooting/strong hand's middle finger where the trigger guard area makes contact with the 2nd knuckle.
When I say "Vertical pistol grips" I am talking about pistol grips like the BCM GunFighter pistol grip: http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gfg/ and Umbrella Corp. Grip 23 pistol grip: https://www.ucwrg.com/materiel/grips/6/grip-23/
I found that some kind of finger "hook" seems to work better for me. It just helps keep my hand from slipping back and provides a repeatable point of contact. When using a VFG-type foregrip, I definitely feel it in my wrist after repeated presentations.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/BiteyMcClaws/20130628_000242_zpsd6af2230.jpg~original (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/BiteyMcClaws/media/20130628_000242_zpsd6af2230.jpg.html)
I prefer to run mine 3 clicks out due to my body armor.
how short do you have your stock collapsed?..
thopkins22
08-03-13, 13:46
I'm a firm believer that despite their marketing, the more vertical grips don't present a better shooting position for the hand/wrist for anyone other than those who shoot truly square to the target and with the stock one click out at the most. Where they shine is presenting a better angle for your wrist when in position sul(as you might hold it when patrolling/walking/standing around) or whatever you want to call it with a long gun.
Of course I'm not a believer in being totally square to the target either and the more I shoot and learn the longer I've learned to run the stock and my stance gets closer to a 45 degree angle. Shooting square may be a hair faster up close(I don't really find that's true for me,) but it sucks once distance is added, and I want one stance, one stock position, and one grip to do everything.
I just picked up an Umbrella grip and put some rounds through it this morning. For reference, I use a pretty squared up shooting stance and run my stock 1 click out from fully collapsed.
It does feel a bit better in the shooting stance, but haven't done enough weapons manipulations with it yet to have a well developed view on that aspect.
I do see what some guys are saying about the weapon feeling a bit more front heavy though. The more vertical angle gives you less leverage to keep the muzzle up when the support hand is off the gun.
Seems to me a shooter's arm length would have a lot to do with whether or not someone would benefit from a more vertical grip. The emergence of these style grips (finally!) was a godsend for me. I'm 6'2", long arms, shoot NTCH, and I utterly hated my wrist position with A1/A2 grips and even with the slightly more vertical miad.
Both the BCM and Umbrella corp grips have made a world of difference for me.
Not quite the same issue but I feel it may bare noting in regards to grip angle. When the AFGs first came out a friend of mine jumped on them and had on on his rifle. When I tried to use it I had could only shoulder the rifle two or three times before my wrist and hand cramped up painfully. The angle just wasn't one that my wrist liked. Now this was when I was in my early twenties so I am not sure that age is a big thing there. But my thoughts are that perhaps the angle is just not one that your body likes. It is a possibility that may bare looking into at any rate. Not a believer in one size fits all anyway and do prefer my MIAD to my BCM gunfighter.
I have Stenosing tenosynovitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenosing_tenosynovitis) and have discussed the topic of grips, having the gap filled on the trigger guard, how the Magpul or similar style trigger guards with a bit of an angle that help reduce pressure, or even in regards to the Glock and Glock knuckle and how radiusing the Glock trigger guard helps with this issue.
Yes I shoot a ton of rounds and handle a weapon on nearly a daily basis for long periods of time during my work week so I have a pronounced lump or nodular formation on my primary shooting hands middle finger. The finger is stiff to move, not nearly as flexible, can become painful or and difficult to extend after long periods of shooting and has become arthritic.
This might sound like a vagisil moment for those who do not shoot that much or for those without the problem, but indeed the condition does exist, can be very painful and indeed correct or incorrect gear or accessory selection can exacerbate or help alleviate the problem. On the plus side, I think I have developed such a callous and have damaged the nerves so severely in my finger that it has become less painful and more of an annoyance in the fingers motor function.
I tried the more vertical grips when they can out, my problem was they made my wrist very uncomfortable, switch to the Larue APEG and love those. The MIAD would be my other choice.
Quiet Riot
08-05-13, 04:20
I actually have a mostly-finished video about these style grips, showing the physiology behind the logic. I even talk about what we're basically seeing in this thread- that grips are like running shoes. What works really well for one person might feel very odd to another, and that we often must try a bunch of different kinds before finding a good match for our personal biomechanics.
Heck, I even show why these make the rifle feel front-heavy with a demonstration of the geometry I haven't seen anyone do before.
In short, these grips are a great idea, but while solving some problems, they create others, and it ends up being a matter of which issues have priority for you.
I prefer to run mine 3 clicks out due to my body armor.
I ask because the angle of your wrist, with your hand on the grip, changes depending on how far it is from your shoulder. a close grip/short stock causes the wrist to bend more and vice versa. anything that allows a joint to operate in the "natural" position should cause less disruption (this is the rationale behind Magpul's Angled Fore Grip). if you raise up your hand like shooting an imaginary pistol, note the angle of your wrist - that's the natural position.
check your natural position against the interface with this grip. three clicks out on top of armor is pretty far out. I think these grips were designed for people holding the gun closer in and it's possible that you are canting your wrist more upright than you should.
it's also possible that the situation is not caused by the angle of the grip but rather the profile. if it somehow puts pressure on the middle finger tendon running through the palm of your hand, or dislocates it from its normal position, it may cause your symptoms. I use an Umbrella Corp grip on my short HD gun and it seems really round and fat. I run this gun 1 click out, no armor, and the vertical angle really helps this close in. I don't have any problems you mention but this gun is not shot a lot. other guns that I run the stock more extended, I don't necessarily like a more vertical grip...
I also prefer something thinner. I actually like the Ergo grip a lot because it's pretty flat side to side but deep front to back for good one hand stabilization. maybe trying a thinner or wider grip with the more vertical/shallow angle would help?..
Quiet Riot
08-15-13, 05:17
I finally got my video done discussing the physiology behind these "CQB" AR15 grips. I compare the Gunfighter, "K", MOE, and A2 grips and show how these might and might not improve your interface with your rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTgw-n9xdr8
Great video. Thanks for that! After watching it I'm much more curious about the steeper angle grips and will give one a try. Learnin' has occurred! :)
I finally got my video done discussing the physiology behind these "CQB" AR15 grips. I compare the Gunfighter, "K", MOE, and A2 grips and show how these might and might not improve your interface with your rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTgw-n9xdr8
QR, good job on the video. The biomechanics of shouldering a rifle is important to see.
What was especially helpful is when you brought out the protractor to demonstrate the angles between the arm position and the grip. Each joint angle from the body to the gun will impact not only the structure and mechanics, but also muscle group tension, flexion and fatigue as well as nerve issues.
With carpal tunnel syndrome, if you work in a position that your body structure doesn't like for your wrist, you are suffering. It is the same here with grips. No two users are the same. What grip & position that works for one guy might not work for the next. It is important to find what works for you.
I think the callus on the middle finger under the trigger guard will always be there to some degree on all shooters (and especially high volume users). The rifle has to be supported and the middle finger is the footer that takes the weight & pressure of the rear half of the gun. I think that is due to two things on the rear half, 1. Hand size and 2. Grip shape. The hand size we can't change. The grip shape we can.
Unless a grip can emphasize a thicker "grip safety tang" back there on the rifle so that more weight is carried by the web/top of the hand, the middle finger will continue to be the rifle weight bearer. What would hammer this point home is to have a number of shooters do the very same demonstration with a rifle and a variety of grips. It will show due to all factors involved that the middle finger will always be the lead part of the hand that touches the rifle first. I think all sized hands are affected. I have a hunch that smaller/medium hands have a harder time than large handed guys.
Another factor that places weight on the middle finger, not supporting the front of the rifle enough as the rifle wants to tip forward. I wonder if with the changes in the support hand grip technique that actually 'holding up' the rifle has become less important than techniques used to better point or swing the rifle side to side. Think about using a traditional bolt action hunting rifle & rifle stock. That grip is drastic on the trigger hand. Now think about how the support hand has to hold that rifle up. The middle finger in that grip is not carrying the weight on the side of the knuckle as it would on an AR15 vertical grip. My point being, holding up the front end of the rifle has become a priority for the trigger hand, more specifically the middle finger applying upward pressure to the trigger guard to influence the nose of the rifle up. Instead of the support hand being that primary support.
Anyway, I'll try to get some photos up. Good conversation here. This is right up my alley.
Pretty much the day I picked up my AR I dropped the standard MOE grip and threw on a BCM Mod 1. I much prefer these steeper angled grips. They are inline with my M&P9s (which I shoot by far the most) and my AK (was my go-to carbine). When I first picked up my AR and shouldered it, I instinctively aimed the front of the rifle too high.
Being the only angle I've used I've seen no issues other that the stated "Glock knuckle", but I just have a callous there now.
I recently took Handgun 1 & Handgun 2 back to back and did notice some discomfort on that knuckle but it was temporary.
EDIT: I use a WARSAW length stock (Beryl) on my AK and run my AR stock at the second position from fully collapsed.
Nikdrak,
How much time are you putting in shooting this gun and how long were you doing so before you started having problems?
From my personal experience, trigger finger doesn't happen over night and takes a bit of time to develop.
I suspect you may be getting the trigger finger from elsewhere like computer use, but it seems to come out when shooting because the pistol grip somehow aggravates it. Obviously, I would suggest getting a different pistol grip that doesn't give you issues.
I have been treated for trigger finger for over a decade in both hands in the middle and ring fingers. In my case it came from keyboarding and mouse use.
I am right handed. Once I switched to using the mouse with my left hand the trigger finger problems were confined to that hand.
I have been getting cortisone shots all this time, typically once every year to 18 months when the problem flares up. It is typically the left ring finger. I prefer this to surgery, as I have had bad effects with other surgery in the past (non-hand surgery).
The things I have done to help it is get a comfortable mouse and a mechanical keyboard--that is one with keys that click and have give. This absorbs a lot of the repetitive impact of typing when compared to regular keyboards. I tried taking glucosamine and chondroitin and calcium supplements, but I cut them out when I suspected they were contributing to kidney stone problems.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-15-14, 02:08
WARNING::: NECROPOST
Ive been using the BCM Gunfighter Mod 0 Pistol grip for apprx 6 months now. I handle my rifle on a daily basis and shoot often. I have developed a severe pain in my middle proximal phalange. Ive actually gone to the doctor for it and its beginning to effect my daily life (can't even open a water bottle with my right hand). I had absolutely no idea what the cause of it was as I have not had any traumatic damage to my hand in over a year and a half. I recently picked up my rifle and the pain shot straight down my arm, making me realize the cause.
I realize that I sound like I am being a giant pussy here, but it is no longer something I would like to tough out, and I am switching back to my LMT Ergo grip.
My wife also has one on her rifle, but she rarely even picks up her gun. I do worry that if I don't change hers out she may experience the same issue someday.
(before I put the plug in)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/DSC_0311_zpsde445893.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/glockfire/media/DSC_0311_zpsde445893.jpg.html)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Rifles/DSC_0365_zps71e4e192.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/glockfire/media/Rifles/DSC_0365_zps71e4e192.jpg.html)
I dunno, color me funny but I really didn't like the Stark angle, the MOE K angle and I shoot a lot of AK's and I am not some huge fan of the AK angle. I do not do a crazy tuck of my primary sides shooting elbow into my rib cage either. All of these reasons combined has not given me the drive to test out a BCM grip. I am sure I will get to it sooner but probably later.
DMViergever
01-15-14, 11:06
I run an Umbrella Corp, before that it was Tangodown and Hogue. After long classes with the old style my wrist would cramp up and a cyst I got from breaking my wrist and not getting it put in a cast would flare up. No such problem with the Grip 23. I run my stock collapsed with a plate carrier and plate so I am very compact. That may play a role in it.
I've found that I prefer the MOE K and the BCM grips over the regular AR angle ones-the one thing I can tell you straight out is the reason I like them is they feel like the rifle I handled the most before going to the the AR which was the AK.
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