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usmcpsycho
08-04-13, 02:50
hello all,
im new to the page here and was wondering some of your opinions on a few AR's ive been looking into....i currently own several rifles, and handguns. i have been shooting since 14, and really got into it when i was a Marine...my current rifle of choice is my fulton armory M14, i recently started shooting my budddies AR and enjoyed it, brought me back to my days in the Corp...i was considering purchasing one and started doing some research. A few of the ones ive had my eye on are palmetto state armory, spikes tactical, del-ton, special ops tactical, and diamond back...im looking into easing into the AR market...the two ive narrowed it to are the special ops tactical, and the spikes due to the spec sheet, and pricing...any thoughts or insight into these rifles would greatly be appreciated...i do plan on using it heavily, and running run and gun drills, as i currently work for the Department of Homeland Security as an agent...thanks again for any input you guys may have, i appreciate the knowedge and experience that you guys can share with me...thanks again
None of the choices are amazing, the PSA is probably the best bet. Why not a Colt 6920 or a BCM?
Plumber237
08-04-13, 04:15
None of the choices are amazing, the PSA is probably the best bet. You'd be better off getting a Colt 6920 or a BCM, especially if you are going to run it hard.
Fixed it for ya
I'm pretty sure its Corps. Also, I suggest you do some research. Neither of those two would even be on the top 20 list.
hello all,
im new to the page here and was wondering some of your opinions on a few AR's ive been looking into....i currently own several rifles, and handguns. i have been shooting since 14, and really got into it when i was a Marine...my current rifle of choice is my fulton armory M14, i recently started shooting my budddies AR and enjoyed it, brought me back to my days in the Corp...i was considering purchasing one and started doing some research. A few of the ones ive had my eye on are palmetto state armory, spikes tactical, del-ton, special ops tactical, and diamond back...im looking into easing into the AR market...the two ive narrowed it to are the special ops tactical, and the spikes due to the spec sheet, and pricing...any thoughts or insight into these rifles would greatly be appreciated...i do plan on using it heavily, and running run and gun drills, as i currently work for the Department of Homeland Security as an agent...thanks again for any input you guys may have, i appreciate the knowedge and experience that you guys can share with me...thanks again
Army Chief
08-04-13, 07:21
Unfortunately, the usual practice for those new to the AR is to look around to see what seems to be readily-available, or to scan gun magazine advertisements, rather than to research what might actually be worth owning. Since all of these rifles look very much alike to the casual observer, there is a certain logic to this; however, the truth is that there are considerable differences in everything from component design, specifications and quality to the assembly standards employed in building them.
All ARs are not created equal, and your list effectively reads like a roster of hobby-grade commercial rifles, which are known to fall well-short of the current service-grade standard. Again, this is a common mistake, so don't feel too badly about it; just take the time to build up your knowledge base so you aren't left with buyer's remorse a month or two after spending all of your money.
You may or may not need, or even want, a gun built that closely adheres to the government's Technical Data Package (TDP) for the M4 series, but you will benefit from getting as close to it as you can where metallurgy, parts testing, chamber dimensions and other key factors are concerned. Further, you want to deal with a company that at least understands the nuances of correct assembly -- look up "staking" for starters -- if not an actual government contractor itself.
Most of the rifles that you mentioned are hopelessly-compromised by shortcuts applied throughout the production process. You see this most often in the form of a features-laden carbine that is being built to what seems to be a very reasonable price-point. Since there are no free lunches, what you eventually find is that the features come at the expense of some very key fundamentals, such as correct barrel steels, bolt testing, proper assembly and the like.
Invest in a rifle that is built from the same quality materials (or better) as the one you carried in uniform, developed with the same military/LE service standards in mind and built by folks who take the work being done on the production floor every bit as seriously as what they have the marketing team working on upstairs. We all like slick glossy magazine ads of pseudo-SWAT dudes and scruffy contractors moving to contact with a cool Brand-X rifle in their hands, but relatively few of these rifles are well-suited for serious work beyond the photo shoot. Learn the difference, and buy the real deal.
Assuming that you've been waiting for the Cliff's Notes on this one, here is a common short list around M4C (alphabetically): Bravo Company Manufacturing, Colt, Daniel Defense, Knight's Armament and Noveske. Depending upon what you are after, and in what configuration, Lewis Machine & Tool and Smith & Wesson might also be worthy contenders. While an not exhaustive list, the point is that these companies are all generally-engaged in the business of making it harder to buy a crappy AR.
AC
I'm pretty sure its Corps.
Thank you
Go talk to Grant at G and R and get one of his BCM's. I'm not sure why "easing" into the AR market equates to buying a subpar rifle.
Grant's site:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=home
Thank you
Go talk to Grant at G and R and get one of his BCM's. I'm not sure why "easing" into the AR market equates to buying a subpar rifle.
This. Grant will take care of you. Buy once, cry once. Colt, BCM, or KAC would be my recommendation.
Army Chief
08-04-13, 10:48
This. Grant will take care of you. Buy once, cry once. Colt, BCM, or KAC would be my recommendation.
Have invested in all three over the years. All represent solid choices.
If you're looking to go for the throat, and buy a rifle that you will never grow tired of, I'd start saving for a SR-15 from KAC.
AC
Some manufacturers aren't to accepted on this forum. Spikes and PSA are darn good rifles, plain and simple. I would put my Spikes against my 6920 any day of the week and the finish is better, if that means anything to you. BCM also makes a darn nice rifle. If you might be selling it down the road buying a Colt will always bring more money simply because it is better known than the others. My best advice is to read this forum and others from cover to cover. Read 10 times more than you post, and it wont be long before you will have your own view on this topic. We all have different needs, what is the perfect rifle for me may be totally wrong for you, so asking strangers what gun you should buy isn't always the best option. But there is good info to be had hear, just like any other forum you have to take the BS out of some of the threads and keep the good. You will learn this in time Grasshopper. Welcome to the jungle!!!!
^ I could not help but think I was just introduced to a magical quest.
Op what almost everyone else said, I personally started off with a Daniel Defense V1 and it has been great, it was much more than I needed but everything I wanted and it left room for me to grow into. Now I'd consider these manufactures the norm and besides a couple other companies I would not bat an eye at anything else. If money is tight personally I would ignore the itch until I could move forward with one of these manufactures. I promise you will thank AC and IG later.
You may want to give Rainier Arms a look also. They have also proven very solid to me.
Also another vote for Grant at GandR, he will point you into the right direction
Unfortunately, the usual practice for those new to the AR is to look around to see what seems to be readily-available, or to scan gun magazine advertisements, rather than to research what might actually be worth owning. Since all of these rifles look very much alike to the casual observer, there is a certain logic to this; however, the truth is that there are considerable differences in everything from component design, specifications and quality to the assembly standards employed in building them.
All ARs are not created equal, and your list effectively reads like a roster of hobby-grade commercial rifles, which are known to fall well-short of the current service-grade standard. Again, this is a common mistake, so don't feel too badly about it; just take the time to build up your knowledge base so you aren't left with buyer's remorse a month or two after spending all of your money.
You may or may not need, or even want, a gun built that closely adheres to the government's Technical Data Package (TDP) for the M4 series, but you will benefit from getting as close to it as you can where metallurgy, parts testing, chamber dimensions and other key factors are concerned. Further, you want to deal with a company that at least understands the nuances of correct assembly -- look up "staking" for starters -- if not an actual government contractor itself.
Most of the rifles that you mentioned are hopelessly-compromised by shortcuts applied throughout the production process. You see this most often in the form of a features-laden carbine that is being built to what seems to be a very reasonable price-point. Since there are no free lunches, what you eventually find is that the features come at the expense of some very key fundamentals, such as correct barrel steels, bolt testing, proper assembly and the like.
Invest in a rifle that is built from the same quality materials (or better) as the one you carried in uniform, developed with the same military/LE service standards in mind and built by folks who take the work being done on the production floor every bit as seriously as what they have the marketing team working on upstairs. We all like slick glossy magazine ads of pseudo-SWAT dudes and scruffy contractors moving to contact with a cool Brand-X rifle in their hands, but relatively few of these rifles are well-suited for serious work beyond the photo shoot. Learn the difference, and buy the real deal.
Assuming that you've been waiting for the Cliff's Notes on this one, here is a common short list around M4C (alphabetically): Bravo Company Manufacturing, Colt, Daniel Defense, Knight's Armament and Noveske. Depending upon what you are after, and in what configuration, Lewis Machine & Tool and Smith & Wesson might also be worthy contenders. While an not exhaustive list, the point is that these companies are all generally-engaged in the business of making it harder to buy a crappy AR.
AC
Awesome. Should be the standard Mark 1 Mod 0 response to anyone asking the "what should I buy...." question.
thekersh86
08-04-13, 15:17
Coming from someone who bought a Spike's, I'm happy with it. The problem is you will yearn for more. You said it yourself, you want to ease into the market. In that case, buy a quality rifle, and shoot it. Then go from there. The more you shoot the more you will want to purchase for your rifle, and having a quality fighting gun as a proper base will create many less future headaches after you've eased in.
Someone said earlier, buy once cry once. I always add buy cheap buy twice. Take it from someone who has been there. The up front price difference is minimal, especially in the long run.
BillyJack2012
08-04-13, 16:21
From your list, I'd go Spike's. Won't find a whole lotta' love here for it but a solid choice.
After reading the OP, I doubt that he was in my Corps or in DHS.......high school maybe. And since he has been shooting since he was 14, he likely only has a year of experience shooting.
No Marine would make that kind of mistake.
I am not buying his "bona fides".
Stats:
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OP, let's start off with this simple question. How much are you willing to spend, not counting magazines, ammo, sling, etc.?
usmcpsycho
08-04-13, 23:00
reason i was asking about these rifles, is for a few reasons..one ive always been more of an M14 guy...i have three of them, my best one is my futon armory. i was looking into the colt LEmodels, and looking at the spec sheet i noticed that a few less expenisve rifles seemed to share the same specs. spikes says they use the 4150 cmv steel barrels, M4 feed ramps cut into the receiver and barrle extension before being finished, M16 bolt carrier, that properly staked and 158 carpenter steel and shot peened, 7076 aluminium receivers upper and lower, F marked front sight base, T marks on the upper rail, barrels and bolt carriers are mp and hp tested, and 5.56 chambers...again, im not an expert on the AR, i carried one in the CORPS....(for those that felt the need to correct the fact i forgot an S) and was able to keep it running despite its wanting to jam....also, i want to know if its better to spend a little more for nickel boron bolt carrier groups and chambers. if i can get away and spend a little less for the same material, then i comes to a question of quaility..i know that two rifles with the exact components could in fact be assembeled totally diferent...i dont want a compitition gun, i have my M14 for that, i want a rifle that i can run hard and not worry about it malfunctioning. my department uses rock river arms, and they run just fine, accuracy is another story when they get hot, but dont forget, my dept is going with the lowest bidder.. i have no problem buying a colt for 1500, but if i can spend less and get the same quaility, it would leave me some room for customization..that being said, i want a rifle that functions, no rifle if accurate if its not functional. i also understand that alot of people have their favorites, so my question was more asking if the spec sheet reads the same, what are factors you guys would look at in choosing a rifle
You want to run it hard and not worry about it malfunctioning. Then go for this.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920
Or this.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=M4-650-112
Work it hard and then determine if or what you want to change. Better set aside some coin because accessories are addicting!:D
Lol, I would spend time investing in spelling and grammar lessons before anything.
Also anyone can copy down specs, obviously your no expert and I'd bet your far away from a Marine, you picked the wrong place to fake that shit, if so. But I hope I'm wrong, because that's not cool
Regards I think you would have better luck with the ARs mentioned.
usmcpsycho
08-04-13, 23:20
my spelling is fine, my typing is not....i served from 1992 until 2000 3rd batallion 8th Marines out lejune..my MOS was 0341 mortarman, theni later took an 0861 billet as a forward observer...if you still doubt me, you can kiss my ass. i didnt sign up to this sight to be critized for petty bullshit by some shitbird like yourself. if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, i suggest you **** off...had i had great knowledge of these rifles, i wouldnt be asking, you ever think of that? i asked for opinion and facts, not for some asswad to give me shit about spelling and question my military service
Failure2Stop
08-04-13, 23:26
my spelling is fine, my typing is not....i served from 1992 until 2000 3rd batallion 8th Marines out lejune..my MOS was 0341 mortarman, theni later took an 0861 billet as a forward observer...if you still doubt me, you can kiss my ass. i didnt sign up to this sight to be critized for petty bullshit by some shitbird like yourself. if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, i suggest you **** off...had i had great knowledge of these rifles, i wouldnt be asking, you ever think of that? i asked for opinion and facts, not for some asswad to give me shit about spelling and question my military service
It's understood that you might take umbrage at someone doubting your service, but if you can't explain your position calmly in the future, your stay will be short.
This is a warning to everyone in this thread that diverges from the original post.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Gentlemen, Let's take a deep breath, count to ten, and remember we should try to conduct ourselves as per Rule #1 in the Forum Rules.
https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
So how about we start anew? Welcome to the Forum, Marine.
I apologize OP. As I wrote I was hoping I was wrong.
I think you have a good place to start as far as being pointed in the right direction with an AR purchase and wish you well, gratitude for your service.
Unfortunately, the usual practice for those new to the AR .....
AC
AC, very well said.
Why not just buy a Colt, that way it will eliminate any questions on quality or specs. Walmart sells the Colt LE6920 for $1097, or the Magpul edition for $1147. This is the best value on the market and is the Gold Standard for a reason.
Spikes stuff is decent, but sometimes their barrels are overgassed to run their stupid ST-T2 buffer and their logo dosent do it for me.
The PSA deal that comes with a free Aimpoint Pro for $1k is a great option as well.
If you are looking for a good quality AR which won't cost an arm and a leg take a look at the following brands:
- Colt
- Noveske
- Bravo Company USA
- Daniel Defense
These companies build rifles which meet or exceed specifications of the TDP which other brands such as bushmaster, dpms, stag ,etc do not. The above brands are held to higher standards in their build quality and the quality of their parts.
What do you plan on using the rifle for ? For a general purpose AR 15 I would take a close look at a colt 6920 or a basic 16" mid length gas system rifle from any of the manufacturers listed above.
The best thing about this platform is that if you start off with a good solid base rifle from a good manufacturer you can make it into whatever you like later.
You can start off with a basic stripped down rifle with fixed FSB and add a free float forend later. It's kind of like how people customize 1911's but a lot less finicky and easier to do if you use high quality parts.
usmcpsycho
08-05-13, 00:17
well gents, its settled...im going to purchase this rifle from my local dealer, he is going to give me the same price as this from gunbroker:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358149924....everything im looking for, its light weight, has a rail system, and seems to be the choice for alot of you guys on here..price is about 200 more then i origionally planned on spending but the ral system makes up for it....another question, is the 1/7 twist barrel better for heavier grain rounds in these rifles? is it better then the 1/9 barrels? thanks guys
.46caliber
08-05-13, 00:35
well gents, its settled...im going to purchase this rifle from my local dealer, he is going to give me the same price as this from gunbroker:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358149924....everything im looking for, its light weight, has a rail system, and seems to be the choice for alot of you guys on here..price is about 200 more then i origionally planned on spending but the ral system makes up for it....another question, is the 1/7 twist barrel better for heavier grain rounds in these rifles? is it better then the 1/9 barrels? thanks guys
For heavier/longer projectiles you will want a 1/7.
ETA: Good read on barrel info. Also try a search for "twist rate".
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=756
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
wilson1911
08-05-13, 01:03
I don't believe you said what your going to actually use the rifle for ??? Did I miss it ???
Best bang for the buck is bcm with a3 upper. Plan on changing out stock, grip, and possibly trigger.
Ummmm... I did see a m&p magpul edition too that was ok.
Get yourself a sling and a case of ammo and 4 pmags. Only after you purchase the rifle will you begin to find what you like or want to change.
I run Kac, noveske, bcm and would stake my life on them in the heat of battle.
Let us know what you purchased and where you want to go with it.
well gents, its settled...im going to purchase this rifle from my local dealer, he is going to give me the same price as this from gunbroker:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358149924....everything im looking for, its light weight, has a rail system, and seems to be the choice for alot of you guys on here..price is about 200 more then i origionally planned on spending but the ral system makes up for it....another question, is the 1/7 twist barrel better for heavier grain rounds in these rifles? is it better then the 1/9 barrels? thanks guys
The 6920 SOCOM will be a great rifle. The main difference to my knowledge is that the SOCOM has a little heavier barrel profile under the handguards, and it says "M4A1" on the roll mark instead of "M4 Carbine". You're right about the rail...by the time you added one to a 6920 you'd have spent the same amount of money if not more. The only real issue I have with the SOCOM rail is (and this is just my personal taste, not a functional problem) I would prefer one that transitions seamlessly from the receiver and is a little longer, but you can always change that out down the road if you want...
I think you'll be incredibly happy with the Colt, like others have said it is pretty much the gold standard by which other rifles are measured around here.
sinlessorrow
08-05-13, 11:46
OP I would suggest heading to your local wally world and picking up a Colt 6920 or 6920 SOCOM.
sinlessorrow
08-05-13, 11:48
The 6920 SOCOM will be a great rifle. The main difference to my knowledge is that the SOCOM has a little heavier barrel profile under the handguards, and it says "M4A1" on the roll mark instead of "M4 Carbine". You're right about the rail...by the time you added one to a 6920 you'd have spent the same amount of money if not more. The only real issue I have with the SOCOM rail is (and this is just my personal taste, not a functional problem) I would prefer one that transitions seamlessly from the receiver and is a little longer, but you can always change that out down the road if you want...
I think you'll be incredibly happy with the Colt, like others have said it is pretty much the gold standard by which other rifles are measured around here.
The 6920 SOCOM also has an Ambi selector, and that rail is the current issued KAC RAS.
.46caliber
08-05-13, 11:58
OP I would suggest heading to your local wally world and picking up a Colt 6920 or 6920 SOCOM.
For reference, my local store has 6920s for $1097.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Your gunbroker link doesn't work for me. How much was your SOCOM? DSG sells them for $1400 in stock.
6920's are $1,000 but must be backordered.
6920 Magpul edition is $1100 and in stock.
http://dsgarms.com/Category/480_1/Colt.aspx
midSCarolina
08-05-13, 12:11
Lol, I would spend time investing in spelling and grammar lessons before anything.
Also anyone can copy down specs, obviously your no expert and I'd bet your far away from a Marine, you picked the wrong place to fake that shit, if so. But I hope I'm wrong, because that's not cool
Regards I think you would have better luck with the ARs mentioned.
??? I don't think that tirade was exactly necessary. In my experience most marines / army / whatever don't know shit about their equipment. A friend of mine who was 1st/75th rangers said that he used "a rifle with a stock that folded and one that had a collapsible stock" while he was in afghanistan... he had no idea what they were called (he did get that it was a SCAR when i suggested that could be the one with the "folding stock").
My suggestions:
BCM
LMT
Colt
The spec sheet has useful information but some manufacturers just do a better job putting together reliable weapons. Typically if they take the time to get all the details right, it will be a solid rifle but ppl tend to keep a mental track record of the pros and cons that they either experience first hand or read about and that can factor into opinions. Out of these 3, I prefer LMT although they are missing a few things on that "spec sheet" just because I have had owned several and know 1st hand that they will work so its just kinda a "what i am comfortable with" thing.
Gents, pretty sure the OP said he has already decided on a Colt LE6920 SOCOM.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358149924
We're not always the most diplomatic crew around here. I know being in the military (if you count the USAF as military) did little to knock off any of my rough edges. Took a wife and a couple of kids to do that.
Welcome to the forums! The razzing and hazing is all part of the show. Doesn't mean you gotta roll over and take it without giving any back!
The simplest solution to your problem is to get a Colt carbine. The 6920 is a good choice and the most available
http://www.gandrtactical.com/PDGImages/LE6920_NP1.jpg
G&R Tactical has them in stock for less than $1200. http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920
My preference would be the Colt 6720 because I like the lightweight barrel profile better than the M4 for a couple of technical reasons, but mostly it's a personal choice
http://www.gandrtactical.com/PDGImages/6720.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6720
They are currently out of stock at G&R. If I wanted a carbine now, I'd opt for the 6920 and get to shooting. Don't worry about ordering online from G&R because the Colt is good and reliable out of the box and if for some reason it isn't, G&R will absolutely take care of you.
I know the sacrifices we make serving our country are not for ourselves, but for our future generations. Thank you for your service
CrazyFingers
08-05-13, 15:29
Lol, I would spend time investing in spelling and grammar lessons before anything.
Also anyone can copy down specs, obviously your no expert and I'd bet...
People who live in glass houses...:D
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Back on topic, OP, the Colt you've selected will serve you well. I was in your shoes several years ago, and didn't know what I didn't know. This site helped me get my head on straight and led me to my BCM 16" middy, and more recently to an Arsenal SAM7r. My perspective is simple:
My interest in shooting is not a passing phase that I'm going to suddenly lose, so it's better to buy the right platform the first time. Sure, I could have spent less than I did on my BCM and bought a lower quality rifle (same with the Arsenal), but I'm pretty sure I'd regret it. In 5 years, I will not be kicking myself wondering "why didn't I spend a couple hundred less on a junkier rifle??".
But I'm damned sure I'd be kicking myself if I had.
elephantrider
08-05-13, 17:10
Deleted
signkutter
08-05-13, 17:50
PSA 16'' PA-15 HF SS12G2 Carbine
http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/r/prorailrifle.jpg
$1059
Quick Overview
16" barrel length
5.56 Nato Chamber
1 in 7" twist
"Machine Gun Steel" barrel
Extra thick Chrome lined barrel
Forged upper and lower
12" Midwest Industries SSG2 Free Float Rail
Aimpoint PRO Optic
D&H 30 round Magazine (where allowed by law)
Lock
Details
Finally a complete rifle ready to go with a quality optic for one low price. Our PA-15 HF SS12G2 Carbine starts with one of our Premium chrome-lined Mil-spec steel barrels in the modified A2 profile, mated to our forged aluminum upper, and finished off with a Midwest Industries SS12G2 12" lightweight free float rail, low profile gas block and A2 Flash hider. The forged lower is built with our 6 position Mil-spec size buffer tube and stock, Standard PSA lower parts kit with A2 grip and aluminum trigger guard. It comes with one 30 Round D&H Magazine (where allowed by law) so all you have to provide is the ammo to start having fun.
Barrel: 16" chrome lined Hammer forged proprietary chrome moly vanadium barrel, referred to as "machine gun steel" by virtue of its use in M240 and 249 weapons by the Military. In addition, the special chrome process allows for a chrome lining almost twice as thick as a standard M16. Chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1/7 twist, M4 barrel extension, and a mid-length gas system. Modified A2 style profile is phosphate coated to mil-specs, and is High Pressure tested, and Magnetic Particle inspected, to ensure quality and dependability. Barrel is finished off with a Midwest industries SSG2 12" Lightweight free float rail, low profile gas block, and A2 flash hider.
Upper: Forged 7075-T6 A3 AR upper is made to MIL-SPECS and hard coat anodized black for durability. Featuring machined T marks, and a mil-spec finish. These uppers are made for us right here in the USA by a mil-spec manufacturer, and are marked with the Palmetto State Armory logo on the left side, up front, just below the rail.
Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, and MPI. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo.
Lower: These forged lowers are quality made using 7075-T6 aluminum and are marked "MULTI" for caliber. Finish is Black Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-8625 Type 3 class 2. Mil-spec sized buffer tube is forged of 7075 aluminum, is dry film lube coated on the inside, has 6 adjustment positions, is finished with an M4 stock and has a staked castle nut. The standard PSA combat trigger has a smooth pull and clean break.
Ok... I would like to know where this rifle is lacking compared to a Colt ,BCM or DD. A simple stock/grip upgrade and a trigger spring job ( just because I like a 4-5 lb trigger YMMV) and what is the advantage the other rifles have over this one?
I have fired many a Colt in my career, a few Spikes Tactical, a few DD, and a few PSA builds...etc. The PSA's were comparable in fit and finish and the component quality is on par with any quality basic rifle. IMO this package is very hard to beat for a quality basic AR and it comes with a high grade optic to boot.
Start getting onto KAC, LMT, Larue, Noveske and you start to see a difference in the details.. cream of the crop pretty with some design improvements but you will also pay 2-3x as much.
CrazyFingers
08-05-13, 19:54
PSA 16'' PA-15 HF SS12G2 Carbine
Ok... I would like to know where this rifle is lacking compared to a Colt ,BCM or DD.
Well, 50 years of combat experience, for starters. I'm sure someone more qualified than I can elaborate on that as well as the others you mentioned.
wetidlerjr
08-05-13, 19:59
PSA 16'' PA-15 HF SS12G2 Carbine...
Ok... I would like to know where this rifle is lacking compared to a Colt ,BCM or DD...
Run 10-12 thousand rounds through it and come back with a report and we will discuss it.
usmcpsycho, You actually went ahead and ordered a 6920 SOCOM?!!. Some guys have a lot of nerve listening to our collective advice. Sheeeet, who are we gonna pick on now? :lol: Enjoy your purchase and be safe out there.
signkutter
08-05-13, 21:45
Well, 50 years of combat experience, for starters. I'm sure someone more qualified than I can elaborate on that as well as the others you mentioned.
By that metric all other manufacturers of AR platform weapons should be eschewed for Colt. Besides brand loyalty there is no basis for this when quality components are utilized.
Failure2Stop
08-05-13, 22:01
By that metric all other manufacturers of AR platform weapons should be eschewed for Colt. Besides brand loyalty there is no basis for this when quality components are utilized.
If you want something that is built and tested by the TDP, there is no one out there that does a better job.
If you are going to deviate from the TDP for central/critical parts, I recommend doing the research to determine exactly what you are compromising on.
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Besides brand loyalty there is no basis for this when quality components are utilized.
Not necessarily true. While COLT has a proven track record and IS the TDP, there are other brands that have proven themselves too. BCM, Noveske, LMT for example.
We are not dissing PSA, but they are a relative newcomer, and have had quite a large share of quality issues, as well as customer service SNAFUS. (I had both.)
I don't think anyone thinks they are a crappy, they are just new, haven't been proven yet, and are still having teething pains.
Congrats on choosing the Colt SOCOM.
:agree:
signkutter
08-05-13, 22:26
Run 10-12 thousand rounds through it and come back with a report and we will discuss it.
Been done. There quite a few owner posts and factory torture tests that claim upto 20 k rounds. I dont own a PSA AR yet but I will in about a month, you
supply the ammo and I supply the trigger finger.
I have trained with AR ,M16/4 rifles since 86, trained others for the past 3 years. Thousands of rounds of experience through this platform and what I have experienced from PSA AR s has been good. So good that I dropped a little over 1 k with full confidence on a premium PSA carbine that comes with an Aimpoint PRO on it.
signkutter
08-05-13, 22:39
Not necessarily true. While COLT has a proven track record and IS the TDP, there are other brands that have proven themselves too. BCM, Noveske, LMT for example.
We are not dissing PSA, but they are a relative newcomer, and have had quite a large share of quality issues, as well as customer service SNAFUS. (I had both.)
I don't think anyone thinks they are a crappy, they are just new, haven't been proven yet, and are still having teething pains.
Good points. I have heard horror stories about thier C.S but I havent heard much negativity about thier rifles, mostly component orders. I will post my experiences with PSA from delivery to product. I will post pics of all individual components side by side my (Service issue weapon)Colt M4.
signkutter
08-05-13, 22:55
If you want something that is built and tested by the TDP, there is no one out there that does a better job.
If you are going to deviate from the TDP for central/critical parts, I recommend doing the research to determine exactly what you are compromising on.
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From what I understand Colts Technical Data Package sets the metric for MilSpec. From the description of PSA premium Carbines, they conform to Milspec testing ,
Failure2Stop
08-05-13, 23:25
From what I understand Colts Technical Data Package sets the metric for MilSpec. From the description of PSA premium Carbines, they conform to Milspec testing ,
Yup.
Heard that one before too.
Lots of claims from lots of companies, very few actually deliver. There are those that have proven it with years of consistency and those that claim/infer it from small sample sizes.
This has been beat to death enough several times in the past.
Maybe PSA will gain the market trust that Colt has, but there are a lot of rifles between here and there.
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I like the PSA carbine I got but I question their current practice of offering Blackhawk parts.
No one uses Colt's TDP but Colt and you can believe they guard it jealously so no other company can take their government contracts away. I worked for a contract company that maintained AH64 helicopters for the Army. Everything they did was according to the TDP which that company wrote. Even the smallest safety procedure was proprietary information. The TDP isn't the contract, the TDP details how the company meets the contract requirements, including any deviations from the contract the Army and the company agree to.
The bottom line is that while other top notch companies meet the mil-spec, they don't build rifles to Colt's TDP because Colt doesn't share the TDP with anyone but the government. If they do have a TDP, it's their own and that is kept between them and the government and/or government contractor they subcontract for
wetidlerjr
08-06-13, 10:51
Been done. There quite a few owner posts and factory torture tests that claim upto 20 k rounds. I dont own a PSA AR yet but I will in about a month, you
supply the ammo and I supply the trigger finger...
Don't hold your breath waiting on that.
Once again opinions based upon "I purchased it so it must be good" and not facts. I don't doubt that PSA has some quality parts and that their FN barrels are good. But they have had some issues with their gas port sizes (consistency) and their BCG offerings. As F2S stated they have a long way to go and unless World War Z happens next week, I doubt they will be combat proven anytime soon.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Words to live by...
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signkutter
08-06-13, 16:01
I like the PSA carbine I got but I question their current practice of offering Blackhawk parts.
No one uses Colt's TDP but Colt and you can believe they guard it jealously so no other company can take their government contracts away. I worked for a contract company that maintained AH64 helicopters for the Army. Everything they did was according to the TDP which that company wrote. Even the smallest safety procedure was proprietary information. The TDP isn't the contract, the TDP details how the company meets the contract requirements, including any deviations from the contract the Army and the company agree to.
The bottom line is that while other top notch companies meet the mil-spec, they don't build rifles to Colt's TDP because Colt doesn't share the TDP with anyone but the government. If they do have a TDP, it's their own and that is kept between them and the government and/or government contractor they subcontract for
Colt no longer has the contract with the government. FN outbid them. Seems like the M4 TPD design was not so exceptional if Remington and FN were able to develope their own TPD , calculate cost and submit a bid to supply hundreds of thousands of rifles on par with Colt quality at less cost.
FN outbid both Colt and Remington to win the $77 million contract to supply the Army with 120,000 M4 Carbines and M4A1 Carbines.
Remington orginally won the contract but Colt filed protests with the U.S. Government Accountability Office. The contact went back out to tender and this time FN came out ahead.
I have taken apart and maintained many a Colt M-4 ( As a Firearms instructor I help maintain over 100 Agency M-4's) and compared them to BCM rifles and found that the BCM rifles were of better quality in the trigger assembly and springs and BCG.. also the overall finish on the exterior of the rifle was superior.
The TBD that Colt follows isnt a beat all standard nor is it infallible. ..Manufactures do not need a detailed step by step Colt process in order build an equal or superior weapon. As far as ISO certification is concerned ... a plastic spoon company can attain it.
The government certainly did not consider the quality provided by Colt to be anything special and frankly neither do I, while Colt certainly makes a solid basic rifle they are by no means without defect. I have a latest shipment of M-4's in my Agencies Armory and out of 27 new weapons 3 wont fire on FA and 1 fails to chamber rounds consistently in SA.
PSA does not have the track record Colt does... granted. This fact alone does not deter me from purchasing a PSA rifle because I have seen them operate.. I have inspected their component parts and fired enough of their rifles to take a chance on them.
Once again someone has proven that they don't know what they don't know.
Colt no longer has the contract with the government. FN outbid them. Seems like the M4 TPD design was not so top secret after all if Remington and FN had enough detailed knowledge to be able calculate cost and submit a bid to supply hundreds of thousands of rifles on par with Colt quality.
I have taken apart and maintained many an M-4 ( more than most will) and compared them to BCM rifles and found that the BCM rifles were of better quality quality in the trigger assembly and springs.. also the overall finish on the exterior of the rifle was superior.
Fit and finish means ZERO. In addition the Colt LPKs are way better in quality. Just look at the disconnector for example. They are made completely different.
The TBD that Colt follows isnt a beat all standard nor is it infallible. ..Manufactures do not need a detailed step by step Colt process in order build an equal or superior weapon. As far as ISO certification is concerned ... a plastic spoon company can attain it.
Interesting, I would love to hear how you reached this conclusion.
The government certainly did not consider the quality provided by Colt to be anything special and frankly neither do I, while Colt certainly makes a solid basic rifle but they are by no means without defect. I have a latest shipment of M-4's in my Agencies Armory and out of 27 new weapons 4 wont fire on FA and 1 fails to chamber rounds consistently in SA.
The government looked at the total cost of the contract and the companies that bid stated they could make it for that price to the specs. They will be provided the TDP in order to ensure that they are indeed meeting the standard and they will be scrutinized by gov't inspectors.
PSA does not have the track record Colt does... granted. This fact alone does not deter me from purchasing a PSA rifle because I have seen them operate.. I have inspected their component parts and fired enough of their rifles to take a chance on them.
Have you examined their gasports to see if they are consistent and within spec across the board. And if you don't think it matters then I will suggest you are seriously confused.
signkutter
08-06-13, 16:17
Once again opinions based upon "I purchased it so it must be good" and not facts. I don't doubt that PSA has some quality parts and that their FN barrels are good. But they have had some issues with their gas port sizes (consistency) and their BCG offerings. As F2S stated they have a long way to go and unless World War Z happens next week, I doubt they will be combat proven anytime soon.
I didnt purchase the weapon because I needed to validate it for some wierd reason. I purchased it because I found it to be priced well for a quality weapon. I will readily admit that I will change out the grip, trigger springs and maybe the stock because I find the quality of those components lacking. But that is small stuff , easily and cheaply replaced. I have noo need for another AR platform 5.56... but i cant turn down a great deal deal when I see it.
signkutter
08-06-13, 17:26
Don't hold your breath waiting on that.
I wont if you dont.
signkutter
08-06-13, 18:05
=Iraqgunz;1714616]Once again someone has proven that they don't know what they don't know.
Ok ...
You say fit and finish do not matter in mechanical item? ... really? and you suggest that I am the one that is confused?
Have you examined their gasports to see if they are consistent and within spec across the board. And if you don't think it matters then I will suggest you are seriously confused.
Why the strawman? In a conventional GI AR platform weapon... besides dwell time.. what else would dictate gas pressure regulation?
Colt messes these up too... humans building machines... it will happen. I haven't had the opportunity to inspect PSA barrels across the board... so I'll just have to go with the examples I have at hand. If I feel like my PSA is over/undergassed and everything else seems to be in order ..I will check the gas port to see that it is within .062 to .075....
wetidlerjr
08-06-13, 18:17
I didnt purchase the weapon because I needed to validate it for some wierd reason. I purchased it because I found it to be priced well for a quality weapon....
Correct me if I'm wrong but you decided this was a quality weapon without owning or shooting one. Did you base your decision completely on the experience of reports by others or did you base it on just a "feeling"? Perhaps an experienced professional recommended it? Now don't misunderstand me as I realize most people (like me) can't afford to buy one of every model of AR made just to make a decision on what to keep and use. Thus, we must very often rely on the experiences of others to help us decide and I have, most certainly, done just that. But, for some reason, I get the impression that the opinion you regard the most is your own. Or, maybe you don't know what you don't know.
signkutter
08-06-13, 18:46
Correct me if I'm wrong but you decided this was a quality weapon without owning or shooting one. Did you base your decision completely on the experience of reports by others or did you base it on just a "feeling"? Perhaps an experienced professional recommended it? Now don't misunderstand me as I realize most people (like me) can't afford to buy one of every model of AR made just to make a decision on what to keep and use. Thus, we must very often rely on the experiences of others to help us decide and I have, most certainly, done just that. But, for some reason, I get the impression that the opinion you regard the most is your own. Or, maybe you don't know what you don't know.
POST#49 I have trained with AR ,M16/4 rifles since 86, trained others for the past 3 years. Thousands of rounds of experience through this platform and what I have experienced from PSA AR s has been good. So good that I dropped a little over 1 k with full confidence on a premium PSA carbine that comes with an Aimpoint PRO on it.
You're wrong and need to pay better attention to detail or did you purposely disregard this information?
As I have stated before in this thread I have had prior experience with PSA rifles EG; I have fired, dissembled and cleaned several partial PSA builds and one full PSA rifle (not to mention more Colt M16/4's than I can remember). These rifles(the PSA's) were built/owned by Military Vets /present day LEO's and fellow Firearms instructors.
You readily admit that due to your ignorance, you allow others with more experience than yourself to make your decisions for you regarding firearm choice.
I have a little over 25 years experience with this weapon system. While I admit that consensus from my peers does nothing to diminish my confidence in the PSA rifle, I am confident enough in my own experience and assessment to make a decision..... and if something is wrong... I can find the problem and I can rectify it.
Army Chief
08-06-13, 19:02
Your wrong and need to pay better attention ...
Happy to oblige your points.
Not happy to see you go to guns on another member.
Kindly cool your jets. Confrontation/accusation is not now we do business here.
Thanks,
AC
Didn't the OP announce that he decided on and bought a SOCOM like 2 pages ago?
Knyghtmare
08-06-13, 19:48
i do plan on using it heavily, and running run and gun drills, as i currently work for the Department of Homeland Security as an agent...
So you're in Obama's SS? I'm not trying to dog on you, I am just curious how that is working out for you? I am sure you will be running your weapon hard in those drills with 2 billion rounds at your disposal.
That being said I must agree that you will want something that has already been proven to be a reliable weapon no matter what situation it is being used for. There have been many mentioned here that will give you what you need. I am partial to BCM, but again it comes down to personal preference.
One more thing, out of curiosity, and again I am not dogging on you, I just want your opinion. When the time comes that you get the order to fire on US Citizens, how will you respond?
CrazyFingers
08-06-13, 19:54
Didn't the OP announce that he decided on and bought a SOCOM like 2 pages ago?
Yeah, I thought we put this one to bed back then too...? This thread seems to be going pear-shaped in a hurry. :confused:
Army Chief
08-06-13, 19:57
Lock, anyone?
AC
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