View Full Version : A definitive article that says it all?
On other forums I try to educate people that ask about ARs and I send them here first. Of course a slew of people jump in saying Stag is just as good as Colt, or Colt is overrated, etc. etc.
Is there a definitive article that explains the differences between top tier and hobby ARs?
Todd,
I moved this so we could get more responses. I don't think there is a definitive source and even if there was, they will generally nitpick it to death.
All one has to do is look at all the specs and compare them. Ultimately if we compare the two it comes down to a few things.
1. The Colt is combat proven. Point stop.
2. The Colt M4/6920 is build to a standard (TDP). Stag and others are simply copying it.
3. Many of the failures you hear about in combat can be attributed to shitty mags, poor maintenance and lubrication. If you eliminated those issues the rate of failure would be much lower (IMO).
If you look at Stags site they are using 4140 steel, non tested BCG's, etc.... unless you get their plus package. Which means the ones they claim are "MILSPEC" are in fact not. I have also seen first hand issues with the chambers being out of spec. They don't even use an H buffer unless you upgrade.
The_War_Wagon
08-04-13, 06:10
There USED to be, "THE CHART" - which spelled out the 'ingredients' of various AR's by manufacturer, so you knew what you were getting. It's nominally technical, and the eyes of your typical FUDD glaze over when they see it.
Because my life has enough headaches as it is, I generally avoid discussing AR's on other boards. I just point 'em here, and tell 'em to, "READ."
Todd,
I moved this so we could get more responses. I don't think there is a definitive source and even if there was, they will generally nitpick it to death.
All one has to do is look at all the specs and compare them. Ultimately if we compare the two it comes down to a few things.
1. The Colt is combat proven. Point stop.
2. The Colt M4/6920 is build to a standard (TDP). Stag and others are simply copying it.
3. Many of the failures you hear about in combat can be attributed to shitty mags, poor maintenance and lubrication. If you eliminated those issues the rate of failure would be much lower (IMO).
If you look at Stags site they are using 4140 steel, non tested BCG's, etc.... unless you get their plus package. Which means the ones they claim are "MILSPEC" are in fact not. I have also seen first hand issues with the chambers being out of spec. They don't even use an H buffer unless you upgrade.
Thanks.
That's basically what I tell them, but then I get nit picked.
There USED to be, "THE CHART" - which spelled out the 'ingredients' of various AR's by manufacturer, so you knew what you were getting. It's nominally technical, and the eyes of your typical FUDD glaze over when they see it.
Because my life has enough headaches as it is, I generally avoid discussing AR's on other boards. I just point 'em here, and tell 'em to, "READ."
I try to avoid but fail, I have this sick need to educate people.
I find pointing out known issues works well about 80-90% of the time. It grabs their attention, at which point, i then move to comparing specs and differences.
Grand58742
08-04-13, 07:25
I think one of the problems you run into with "hobby level" ARs versus "top tier" ARs is the definition of "hard use."
Is Stag just as good as a Colt for going out and blasting Mountain Dew bottles and dirt clods a couple of times a year, probably never seeing any more than a couple of thousand rounds at most down the barrel in the lifetime?
I would say yes, for that specific application a Stag is "just as good as" a Colt. Depending on price point, maybe even a better deal.
On the flip side, is a Windham carbine going to be my first choice for a go-to rifle if TSHTF, zombie apocalypse, combat or end of the world scenario that I bet my life on to run with little to no problems?
Not at all.
In some regards, and for I would say the majority of the AR owners out there, a Stag, DPMS, Windham, etc will end up doing them fine for the amount of rounds they will put down the barrel in their lifetime. But for those that are looking at a hard use weapon that is reliable out of the box with high round counts, then not necessarily. But this is where many will say "I have shot thousands of rounds through my DPMS without a flaw!" But...not all the DPMS are going to run great and there is a more likely chance of getting a lemon from the factory than say a BCM or a Noveske.
Using a car relation, which I'm not fond of, but have nothing else to compare it to, some cars are built and will be able to run for a million miles. Not sure how, but that particular Ford Ranger just keeps running. You can change out the oil twice in 300,000 miles and do little more than add washer fluid and it still runs somehow. Maybe it was made on a Tuesday and all the factory workers were in tune and the steel and alloys were the right mix for it to perform at peak levels. Maybe someone didn't cut corners. It just happens sometimes. Does that mean all Ford Rangers will run for a million miles? No, but there are some that just were put together the right way and run with few problems throughout their lifetime.
Liken that to a Bushmaster that folks claim to have shot twenty thousand rounds through. Sure, they probably have. Maybe that rifle was made on the Tuesday and the barrel steel was the perfect mix, the bolt was one of the batch that got the MPI and everything was utterly perfect as it left the factory floor. Chances are you cannot break it. So it runs perfectly while the one that followed it on the assembly line fails within a thousand rounds.
Chance is the name of the game when building hobby grade ARs.
The major difference in top tier ARs is the fact there few things left to chance. Full testing and the proper materials used in the construction according to the TDP in Colt's case or as close as they can get in the other top tier AR manufacturers. You aren't going to get that with lower level ARs that cut corners and leave things to chance. Batch testing done on bolts and barrels are leaving a lot of things to chance. They test one out of a hundred (arbitrary number as I honestly have no clue what the actual number is) and the number ten through eighty-eight have cracks in the lugs. But the batch testing doesn't pick up on that. And chances are owners are never going to shoot that rifle to failure anyway so it's a moot point, but they will point to the lack of failure as being "equal."
So when it comes down to choosing a "hobby grade" AR versus a "top tier" AR, I'd rather leave as little to chance as possible. Is a Stag just as good as a Colt? Sometimes. Does it leave a lot to chance in potential failure points? Absolutely.
May not be the exact info you are looking for, but just the way I see it.
On other forums I try to educate people that ask about ARs and I send them here first. Of course a slew of people jump in saying Stag is just as good as Colt, or Colt is overrated, etc. etc.
Is there a definitive article that explains the differences between top tier and hobby ARs?
There are some examples of Brand X and Brand Y that have survived really high round counts, so people naturally use those examples to promote their point of view. You can point them toward an article for reference and they will debate the conclusions of any tests completed during comparison of the different AR companies and what they market.
Unless they have seen their own rifle take a dump during a one week course, they are going to have their minds made up already. If someone already has their mind made up, they are most likely looking for a debate and not advice.
So when it comes down to choosing a "hobby grade" AR versus a "top tier" AR, I'd rather leave as little to chance as possible. Is a Stag just as good as a Colt? Sometimes. Does it leave a lot to chance in potential failure points? Absolutely.
May not be the exact info you are looking for, but just the way I see it.
There are some examples of Brand X and Brand Y that have survived really high round counts, so people naturally use those examples to promote their point of view. You can point them toward an article for reference and they will debate the conclusions of any tests completed during comparison of the different AR companies and what they market.
Unless they have seen their own rifle take a dump during a one week course, they are going to have their minds made up already. If someone already has their mind made up, they are most likely looking for a debate and not advice.
I know most people are just trying to justify their hobby gun purchase or they would already be members of this forum. Like I said I just have this sick need to educate.
ennbeegunny15
08-04-13, 08:24
I am a member on a few different forums and i've noticed on "my rifle is malfunctioning" type threads that they have usually cobbled together a rifle that is made from well...junk or out of spec parts. they have never heard of the TDP and as noted previously, they think 20-100 rounds of flawless function makes their rifle a top tier rifle. If you mention colt, dd, noveske or BCM, you'll always get flamed. they always think that a rifle that they cobbled together using the cheapest parts will always trump a top tier or brand name AR, which in my experience at the range and in classes is not the case. i always get called a BCM fan boy, and they always tell me to go back to m4carbine....:D honestly, i learn more on this site than any other. i used to try and steer them this way, but i figure why have them muck up this site.
sugerwater
08-04-13, 08:26
I have a hobby rifle, forged upper & lower, FN 4150 chf barrel, Geissele SS-E, LaRue Mounted Leupold, Quality BUIS rear, F front site, all the staking done right, BCM Mod 4 handle, machining done to perfection. Shoots better then any of my other rifles. It's my only AR. Roll-mark not important. I also have a M1A, M1 Garand, more then a few Winchesters, S&W's, .45's, and so on. My carbine is shot more then the others by far. I'm 100% confident in the AR as my first goto weapon. For me and my uses, I have the best AR I can buy.
A few things that come to mind on why people might not buy in to the advice are claims from the past concerning Colt stuff.
Used to be common to claim Colt magazines were better than other USGI contract mags including Universal, Colt promoters used to ridicule anyone desiring standardized parts when Colt had front screws instead of front take down pins and so on, it was a bit hard to buy performance claims when the same people making them were peddling 20-30 year old SP1's that had not had a round fired through them since leaving the factory and there were quite a few of those floating around, and during that time there was a fairly large price difference to get a Colt with proprietary parts versus something else with readily available parts. There are also plenty of people who view the proprietary parts in the same light as they did S&W entering in to the agreement with the feds & Bill Ruger showing his true colors testifying in front of congress and while the folks running those shows are no longer around, many people still view those companies negatively.
Now all of that has changed for the better, but keep in mind there are still some people around that can recall that era quite well.
Don't think the one article you seek exists.
If you must have it....
I would take the time to do what most researchers do...
that is, put together information from a collection of reliable sources and articles.
This is the hard part, differentiating between opinions, wisdow,and facts.
Then assemble your own "fact sheet" to have a one point source for trying to work with un-informed and biased AR owners or prospective owners. (Obviously ref. the sources.) The quality of your sources will at least prove to you that this information is accurate and true to the best of your ability.
Our "social media" crazed society places too much value on everyones opinion or statements on twitter or facebook as being important and/or factual.
If people don't listen to wisdom, logic, experience, ect., then at some point, we should stop wasting our time.
On other forums I try to educate people that ask about ARs and I send them here first. Of course a slew of people jump in saying Stag is just as good as Colt, or Colt is overrated, etc. etc.
Is there a definitive article that explains the differences between top tier and hobby ARs?
A few things that come to mind on why people might not buy in to the advice are claims from the past concerning Colt stuff.
The people I've tried to educate don't know the history of anything. LOL
Don't think the one article you seek exists.
If you must have it....
I would take the time to do what most researchers do...
that is, put together information from a collection of reliable sources and articles.
This is the hard part, differentiating between opinions, wisdow,and facts.
Then assemble your own "fact sheet" to have a one point source for trying to work with un-informed and biased AR owners or prospective owners. (Obviously ref. the sources.) The quality of your sources will at least prove to you that this information is accurate and true to the best of your ability.
Our "social media" crazed society places too much value on everyones opinion or statements on twitter or facebook as being important and/or factual.
If people don't listen to wisdom, logic, experience, ect., then at some point, we should stop wasting our time.
Does anyone have the yellow-hat spread sheet? That was almost enough for most facts based people.
Our "social media" crazed society places too much value on everyones opinion or statements on twitter or facebook as being important and/or factual.
Unfortunately very true. Also, 'What does the reality star, that became famous for her sex video, think?'
The people I've tried to educate don't know the history of anything. LOL
Does anyone have the yellow-hat spread sheet? That was almost enough for most facts based people.
The chart is not being maintained but there are some good resources on his page.
http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/charts
Old link to the chart:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
.
Honestly in my experience an article would not help. On most other forums I have been on a lot of people when they ask about ARs and what to look for and what is good are only looking for people to stroke their ego because they have already bought a brand that they assume is good. That or they think all are the same, lower end are still good enough, or any number of other things. The usual responses end up being one line answer that are worthless, guys going AKs are best, or non answers. If you come and as I have and do a real break down either the idiots bitch because its a page and a half long, ou use words that require a dictionary, and they sure as hell don't know what a TDP is but won't look it up because that is so un-cool. Basically if they don't want to know they won't learn and continue to fail so I've given up even bothering answering or other forums since the same questions pop up twice a week and I just don't have the time to try to educate people.
A couple years ago when PSA started making their own rifles I had briefly looked at one of their uppers and posted on another forum to see if anyone had one. I asked pointedly if anyone had one with which they had run an appreciable amount of rounds through and what kinds of performance they had gotten. I got several claiming that the uppers were great and that they had no issues with them. After asking repeatedly what their round counts were all who had responded with the uppers being so great, 100%, ect, ect replied that they had between 9-50 rounds through their uppers. They promptly got pissed when I replied that their data was useless and asked if anyone had one with 500 or more rounds through their uppers. Never did buy a damn PSA upper, of course at this point I am likely not going to buy an upper below BCM on the quality scale of things.
The chart is not being maintained but there are some good resources on his page.
http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/charts
Old link to the chart:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
.
Thanks, I'm hoping someone saved the chart is all.
The guy I was trying to educate virtually ignored everything I told him. I really have to stop with these **** nuts.
On other forums I try to educate people that ask about ARs and I send them here first. Of course a slew of people jump in saying Stag is just as good as Colt, or Colt is overrated, etc. etc.
Is there a definitive article that explains the differences between top tier and hobby ARs?
I have become a jaded jerk on the topic. I admit it. I respect those willing to make the effort, but I spend my professional time already trying to educate people on a topic of endless of confusion.
"What AR should I get?"
"Stick to these brands and you should be GTG"
"Why?"
"Because people who know a sh%$ load more about the topic than you or I will ever know say so"
I know, not helpful. But, know your lane and be good at that, find people who know what they are talking about, and listen to them to save yourself years of wasted time and$$$.
That's my approach. When I first came to M4C I had a clunky BM that served me OK, but I read up, asked Qs, did some research, etc, and "took yes for an answer" and got what I knew was generally approved by those who research such things for a living.
The guy I was trying to educate virtually ignored everything I told him. I really have to stop with these **** nuts.
Some men you just can't reach.
I was known to talk to anyone and everyone about this subject. I am very select about whom I try to educate now. I always take time out for the guys that say "remember you're using weapons made by the lowest bidder".
It's like trying to argue quality anything...tools, tents, knives, boots, bikes, beer. Some guys just don't want to take the time to research and educate themselves. Its all about whatever is cheap.
What others have said here on the forum is true: "People buy a certain brand and then come here looking for confirmation as to their purchase", or something along those lines. You can't help those who will not listen.
On another note (I don't post this to cause trouble. If it does please delete) it seemed at one time some folks on the forum were overly obsessed with the so called "Chart". Is this true?
Some people are just not worth arguing with and attempting to convince them of anything is a huge waste of effort. There are those who need to learn the hard way or via their own trial and error no matter the path of those who came before them. Learning by doing things the hard way is not necessarily a bad thing but there are two distinct types. Those attempting to come to an independent conclusion no matter the outcome and they are not necessarily emotionally invested either way. The next is the type that are emotionally tied to the outcome and attempt to sway things to match their desired result, or to justify their own decisions / purchases.
There is a reason that these individuals, groups or certain forums go down in flames, no matter what information, background or reasonability you try to interject. Bottom line is "they don't know, what they don't know" and infect others who know even less. Yes it seems noble to attempt to educate them, but sometimes you just need to cut out the cancer and move on to those who are open to help. Eventually the cancer kills the host, group or forum and in a sense that solves the issue.
Does anyone on this site have the funds to run their own independent test? It would be real expensive. Ideally, the tester would walk into a local gun shop and buy an off the shelf carbine for testing. Once one sample from each of the well known manufacturers was in hand, the tester could fire 20,000 rounds through each carbine and let the chips fall where they may. Once a carbine develops a problem that requires tools to fix, it is out of the running.
This would be no different than any other contest. The guy who does the most pushups, runs the fastest 5 miles or knocks the other guy out wins. It would put a lot of the arguments to rest.
Does anyone on this site have the funds to run their own independent test? It would be real expensive. Ideally, the tester would walk into a local gun shop and buy an off the shelf carbine for testing. Once one sample from each of the well known manufacturers was in hand, the tester could fire 20,000 rounds through each carbine and let the chips fall where they may. Once a carbine develops a problem that requires tools to fix, it is out of the running.
This would be no different than any other contest. The guy who does the most pushups, runs the fastest 5 miles or knocks the other guy out wins. It would put a lot of the arguments to rest.
But, for it to be a legit representative sample of each manufacturer, you'd need to test more than one, making it far more expensive. I'd think a minimum of 3 per manufacturer, but that's a WAG on my part.
Larger the n number the greater confidence in the results as a rule, but not sure how that gets applied to testing of firearms per se statistically speaking.
NWcityguy2
08-04-13, 13:52
I see people arguing brand differences far more than I see them giving reports on guns that have been worn out from use. This isn't the first time the internet has put the cart before the horse though.
If you are looking at a model of gun you will find far better information by reading what the actual owners of it have written than you will be asking randomly what people think about it. See what they say initially and see what they say after years of ownership or certain round counts.
Some people are just not worth arguing with and attempting to convince them of anything is a huge waste of effort. There are those who need to learn the hard way or via their own trial and error no matter the path of those who came before them. Learning by doing things the hard way is not necessarily a bad thing but there are two distinct types. Those attempting to come to an independent conclusion no matter the outcome and they are not necessarily emotionally invested either way. The next is the type that are emotionally tied to the outcome and attempt to sway things to match their desired result, or to justify their own decisions / purchases.
There is a reason that these individuals, groups or certain forums go down in flames, no matter what information, background or reasonability you try to interject. Bottom line is "they don't know, what they don't know" and infect others who know even less. Yes it seems noble to attempt to educate them, but sometimes you just need to cut out the cancer and move on to those who are open to help. Eventually the cancer kills the host, group or forum and in a sense that solves the issue.
The funny thing is this is on a corvette forum where we discuss car specs all the time. When I ask these guys that want to say a sub par AR is just as good as top AR if they would buy a Corvette with pistons that wouldn't last on a track day but are good enough for the street they say hell no. It's funny how they demand quality they will never use in one product but not another.
I see people arguing brand differences far more than I see them giving reports on guns that have been worn out from use. This isn't the first time the internet has put the cart before the horse though.
If you are looking at a model of gun you will find far better information by reading what the actual owners of it have written than you will be asking randomly what people think about it. See what they say initially and see what they say after years of ownership or certain round counts.
I'd agree with this.
Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.
One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.
Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).
Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.
On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
I'd agree with this.
Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.
One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.
Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).
Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.
On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
In my last post I made reference to the "lowest bidder" mentality. I have firsthand knowledge that this is not how the military procures.
You are exactly the person that this thread is about.
In my last post I made reference to the "lowest bidder" mentality. I have firsthand knowledge that this is not how the military procures.
You are exactly the person that this thread is about.
Really? You mean defense contractors actually don't care about profit margins and their stock holders?
New one on me.
ETA: Since you have stated in your last post that you directly target those with the "lowest bidder" mentality, then you'd be happy to oblige me with a list of all the subcontractors that supply components to colt.
I'd agree with this.
Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.
One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.
Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).
Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.
On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
I am glad that my AR or Colt does not come with papers truthfully, but my good friend who is a Marine told me about the time he was pinned down with his squad and his Colt got him out of a shit storm many rounds were fired and the Colt ran flawless, that's piece of mind and I will take that over X that is known by people who have put a lot more than me down range to be a piece of shit. The last thing I want to think about or have happen is when SHTF is that I am left with brand X because I wanted to save 200$ Piece of mind is priceless IMO
Anything can break or jam, I am not denying that but if I have the opportunity to give myself a better chance or a battle proven option, Military or weekend worrier I am going with something proven to improve that chance
Does anyone on this site have the funds to run their own independent test? It would be real expensive. Ideally, the tester would walk into a local gun shop and buy an off the shelf carbine for testing. Once one sample from each of the well known manufacturers was in hand, the tester could fire 20,000 rounds through each carbine and let the chips fall where they may. Once a carbine develops a problem that requires tools to fix, it is out of the running.
This would be no different than any other contest. The guy who does the most pushups, runs the fastest 5 miles or knocks the other guy out wins. It would put a lot of the arguments to rest.
If I ever hit the lottery for a couple hundred million I would likely start something like this among other tests, pistols, ammo, ect, ect. Figure I would need something to keep me busy and why not try to educate people while I am at it.
Really? You mean defense contractors actually don't care about profit margins and their stock holders?
New one on me.
ETA: Since you have stated in your last post that you directly target those with the "lowest bidder" mentality, then you'd be happy to oblige me with a list of all the subcontractors that supply components to colt.
Of course corporations care about their bottom line, it would be naive to think otherwise. Once contracts are bid the contractor must meet the quality (TDP) that was contracted. I've seen it more than a few times where contractors failed to meet the standard and then had to spend their own money to bring the product up to standard. A lot more thought goes into procurement than just saving money.
I will not oblige you with a list. Do your own research.
The_War_Wagon
08-04-13, 14:53
i used to try and steer them this way, but i figure why have them muck up this site.
That's why I tell them to come here: NOT to post, but to, "READ!" :D
Of course corporations care about their bottom line, it would be naive to think otherwise. Once contracts are bid the contractor must meet the quality (TDP) that was contracted. I've seen it more than a few times where contractors failed to meet the standard and then had to spend their own money to bring the product up to standard. A lot more thought goes into procurement than just saving money.
I will not oblige you with a list. Do your own research.
So much for "educating others" huh?
I've searched, I've not had any luck find info that definitively shows for fact what companies subcontract parts for Colt, so I doubt you know.
Anything can break or jam, I am not denying that but if I have the opportunity to give myself a better chance or a battle proven option, Military or weekend worrier I am going with something proven to improve that chance
Me, I am a "weekend worrier." My warrior days are far behind me. :)
Like all advice people just want to be told what they want to hear. When people ask me, my first questions is "what do you want to do with it?" Based on that I will ask their price range and direct them from there.
I wish there was a definitive article, though.
For me, the most persuasive arguments to go with one manufacturer over another come from those that run firearms classes and those that must know the platform for a living. An individual may see a sample size of one or two firearms (small sample size), those teaching classes and working everyday with the AR will see much larger sample sizes. For me to ignore the advice from someone that makes their money knowing how these guns are put together and providing advice to paying customers is just stupid.
There is hope. My LGS has started stocking Colt and DD carbines and more parts from manufacturers that produce quality items.
For me, the most persuasive arguments to go with one manufacturer over another come from those that run firearms classes and those that must know the platform for a living. An individual may see a sample size of one or two firearms (small sample size), those teaching classes and working everyday with the AR will see much larger sample sizes. For me to ignore the advice from someone that makes their money knowing how these guns are put together and providing advice to paying customers is just stupid.
There is hope. My LGS has started stocking Colt and DD carbines and more parts from manufacturers that produce quality items.
I think that would be the best.
As with anything larger sample sizes decrease amount of deviation in results. Also taking a small fixed number of weapons of each manufacturer is not going to give nearly as accurate of results. Testing a percentage would be more ideal in terms of findings as well as testing standards. Anyone can get away with 2 or 3 or a handful of rifles that run well.
Looking at length of ownership and round counts can be deceiving. How many rounds and at what rates of fire over fixed intervals would be more telling. I could own 2 weapons for 5 years with 5000 rounds through each weapon. For rifle A, I could fire 5000 rounds spread evenly over the 5 years never shooting at a pace that would induce high levels of heat to tax the system. Rifle B could fire 5000 rounds very quickly in 3 or 4 training courses in a matter of a few weeks and just sit for the remainder of the 5 years. Rifle B would see more wear and tear than rifle A even though I had both for 5 years and fired the same round count through them. Very inaccurate method to compare both rifles.
As mentioned in the automotive analogy, since I am also a gear head, I cannot expect to use crappy parts in a car that sees the drag strip and only has 100 miles on the odometer, 1/4 mile at a time and expect it to last as long then if I use quality parts and build process. Then again if I only drive my kids to school everyday and get groceries with my car, my Neon will probably be just as well suited as my Mercedes and do it at a fraction of the cost.
Oh and I don't own a Neon or a Mercedes.
As with anything larger sample sizes decrease amount of deviation in results. Also taking a small fixed number of weapons of each manufacturer is not going to give nearly as accurate of results. Testing a percentage would be more ideal in terms of findings as well as testing standards. Anyone can get away with 2 or 3 or a handful of rifles that run well.
Performing laboratory testing for a living, I have seen first hand how a small sample size can give results that don't paint a complete picture. For the work I do, a minimum of three replicates tested in triplicate is needed, and five replicates tested in triplicate gives a much better indication of the product's true performance.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Using the unstaked castle nut as some kind of "positive" attribute is ridiculous.
The shortcomings with WW, BM, DPMS, etc... has all been SPELLED OUT numerous times before. Don't expect us to spoon feed it to you.
You also don't know what you are talking about in regards to bidding/lowest bidders and meeting the requirements that are specified.
The union thing has ZERO relevance and is nothing more than a feeble attempt to argue without merits.
I'd agree with this.
Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.
One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.
Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).
Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.
On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
RogerinTPA
08-04-13, 17:32
I stopped doing that years ago on forums. Unless on a range or that topic comes up, I refer them here and invite them to conduct their own research. Normally when they start to defend their substandard purchase, I ask them to disassemble their weapon, comparing it with my own, then go through and show/explain all the failings of that manufacturer. That usually opens some minds, but in the end, anyone who buys cheap is normally a satisfied customer, and won't be deterred unless a major failure or two occurs. If they're still unconvinced, I ask them to take it to a 3 day carbine course and invite them to let us know what happened. They then baulk at the price, walk off extremely butt hurt, then return to their own reality of 'it's good enough or as good as yours".
The conversations normally start with someone asking what type of gun I have, is it a stag, rra, etc...Then goes quickly downhill when I let them know what I'm using, and that I don't do commercial grade guns. The GP & guys who build frankenguns have been brainwashed into thinking all ARs are the same, so unless I'm specifically asked or I see a gun malfunction, I make a recommendation, then try to keep my opinions to myself.
At work I deal with Colt and FN AR's. I see a small amount of police AR's of various manufacture as well.
I have seen more than 1.5 million rounds fired over a one year period through about 100 Colt M4's and M4A1's. I witnessed numerous stoppages but no breakages. The stoppages were caused by the usual suspects, bad magazines and lack of lubrication. This experience alone (re)sealed the deal for me.
I have trigger time on Colt's since 1975. I've seen them used and abused in ways that would set your hair on fire. I've personally burned one in from about 100 feet up. I've seen them used as ladders, run over by vehicles, blown up, burned, dropped down the side of mountains, and the list goes on. I even know of a jack wagon that took all the BCG's out of all the AR's in the arms room, took them apart and buried half and threw the other half in the dumpster as some weird form of revenge. You can bet none of the BCG's and bolt's were ever reunited with their original guns.
It may not be scientific but this is my experience with the Colt AR. I would proudly own BCM, DD, Noveske, etc. But I can honestly say that Colt is my go to gun because of almost 40 years of positive experience.
I do not believe in "good as" or "made by the lowest bidder" arguments.
.
I stopped doing that years ago on forums. Unless on a range or that topic comes up, I refer them here and invite them to conduct their own research. Normally when they start to defend their substandard purchase, I ask them to disassemble their weapon, comparing it with my own, then go through and show/explain all the failings of that manufacturer. That usually opens some minds, but in the end, anyone who buys cheap is normally a satisfied customer, and won't be deterred unless a major failure or two occurs. If they're still unconvinced, I ask them to take it to a 3 day carbine course and invite them to let us know what happened. They then baulk at the price, walk off extremely butt hurt, then return to their own reality of 'it's good enough or as good as yours".
The conversations normally start with someone asking what type of gun I have, is it a stag, rra, etc...Then goes quickly downhill when I let them know what I'm using, and that I don't do commercial grade guns. The GP & guys who build frankenguns have been brainwashed into thinking all ARs are the same, so unless I'm specifically asked or I see a gun malfunction, I make a recommendation, then try to keep my opinions to myself.
They tend to be of the same brainless ilk who will tell you Taurus 1911s are just as good as a Wilson, or that Bose is a high end speaker manufacturer. You can lead a horse, and all that.
I quit trying to explain to people on what they should start with. It's just not worth it to me. The usual questions come up.
Them: Well, what do you use?
Me: I use a Colt and a BCM.
Them: Why?
Me: Because I like them.
Them: That's it?
Me: Yes, that's it.
Them: How much are they?
Me: $1200 a pop.
Them: That's quite a lot of money.
Me: Yes, it is, but it's cheap life insurance.
Them: Well, aren't there some other brands that are almost as good for less money?
Me: I don't know. I don't use the other brands. You can check out M4Carbine.net. They have a lot of good info on ARs. Have a nice day.
See how easy it is? :D
bluejackets92fs
08-04-13, 18:00
I just don't let it bother me. If you're too lazy to research it then you obviously don't care about what you're buying. I don't care if it's firearms, car parts, or a dish washer. The days of over engineering are long gone. Most everything is built to a cost and not a spec or standard. If I'm spending money on something, I'm going to buy the product with the best reputation and the one that is built to a spec. Simple as that.
mastiffhound
08-04-13, 21:09
I got back into ARs just a few years ago and was in the only AR I've ever known was a constantly malfunctioning BM boat. Before I came back to them I did alot of reading and I didn't want to go full tilt for another POS. PSA was recommended and I'm glad I got back into ARs. Since then I've had a few friends and family ask me about ARs, more since the great gun grab. I've still got a PSA and now a BCM. For a starter, PSA is as low as I would go. The thread "Took a chance on PSA"https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=108867 had a recent poster say he's got 22,000 rounds through his.
That being said my new BCM is much better on the fit and finish and would recommend them first. As for BM, Whindam, Delton, or any other company besides Colt I say no, bad idea. Why buy them when for less you can get a PSA. Hell, you can get a BCM or Colt for the same price or for just a little more than BM? I then send them here.
Still looking for the list? Here is an old one. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3238128&postcount=79
I try to avoid this topic when people ask just to avoid getting a headache. If they persist, I will try to ask some questions of them to gauge their desire/ability to listen to other's opinions.
That being said, with my part-time job I do get to see a variety of ARs in action during training courses. I am not one of the national level instructors and don't claim their experience level. However, by working as in instructor for my state's municipal police training organization, I do see a fair number of rounds fired downrange in courses. I also see a variety of rifles used because students in these classes come from the hundreds of cities/town police department and bring what their agency issues. Almost all rifles used in these courses are AR based. Our most recent class saw 38 students with 34 types of ARs used. During that class, approximately 32,000 rounds were fired by the trainees.
I have seen most of the big name manufacturers in class and feel safe commenting on my experience/observations. The biggest issues seen are, Surprise - magazines and maintenance. I have seen trainees come to class with magazines made before some of the cops were born. I have seen and had to stop trainees from stretching magazine springs which they felt had lost their "ommph". I have also seen more than a few AR which were bone dry. I have been told by the officers using these ARs that their armorer told them "oil attracts dirt" and/or other old wives tails. I have also learned that some police departments have armorers who feel a clean and lube only needs to be done every 8-10 years. Under these conditions, it is surprising that any of these ARs make it few a full mag without burping.
The various Colts I have seen over the years have the best track record. Generally, any malfunctions with the Colts are magazine (old and dented) or maintenance related (never cleaned in a decade and/or bone dry). I have seen dozens of military surplus Colt made M-16A1s taken out of the box the day before the class, lubed, and then used without issue. The only Colt we had a problem with was one where the front sight assembly was canted and caused big issues when zeroing.
The biggest offenders have been Bushmasters and Stag (we have had others like RRA, Wyndham, Spikes, etc but not in any large quantities to notice). With Bushmaster, we have seen gas keys which came loose and castle nuts backing off on more than a few. Hell, our state police tactical team had something like half of their new Bushmasters have problems right out of the box years back. I believe they switched to Colt after that debacle but may be going with another brand (SW?).
The Stags which have had problems that I observed were barrel/chamber related. Generally, this is noticed during hot weather when doing rapid/multi shot drills while firing actual 5.56 ammo. I don't think the Stag chambers are actually 5.56 (I have heard this same comment from others who have used Ned's 5.56 chamber reamer on Stag barrels). Under these conditions, I have seen some Stags suffer ammunition pressure related malfunctions. These same rifles worked better when fed .223 SAAMI spec ammo. I have also seen some Stags which have had small parts breakage in the fire control group - one which was reportedly only a few months old and barely used but which started to double during zeroing on day one of the class.
As stated above, we have seen other AR brands like Wyndham, Spikes, H&K, Sig, and Ruger but not in the same quantities as Colt, Stag, Bushmaster. One surprise I forgot to mention is that we also have a good number of S&W rifles come through the classes - mostly M&P15-T models and the Magpul models. I don't remember any issues with the S&Ws that weren't mag or lube related except for one of the old T models whose gas block screws came loose and caused cycling issues.
See my response to your butthurt in red:
You have no idea what you are talking about. Using the unstaked castle nut as some kind of "positive" attribute is ridiculous.
Whatever. If you can't stake your own castle nut, then you shouldn't own anything that requires even a smidgeon of mechanical ability.
The shortcomings with WW, BM, DPMS, etc... has all been SPELLED OUT numerous times before. Don't expect us to spoon feed it to you.
Don't really care. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
You also don't know what you are talking about in regards to bidding/lowest bidders and meeting the requirements that are specified.
I was in the military and I work for a military contractor. Now it's up to you to prove I don't.
The union thing has ZERO relevance and is nothing more than a feeble attempt to argue without merits.
Pfffff...that comment reeks of a feeble attempt to defend a product made by a group of socialist thugs that support a president that would just soon have you and I disarmed. You think those fools have any more pride in their product that the thugs over on the GM lines? They care about their pockets.
See my response to your butthurt in red:
Oh but I do, now it's up to you to prove I don't. I was in the military and I work for a military contractor. Now it's up to you to prove I don't.
That's not how proof works.
If I say "unicorns don't exist" and you simply say "Oh but they do, now it's up to you to prove that they don't" is just retarded. :rolleyes:
That's not how proof works.
If I say "unicorns don't exist" and you simply say "Oh but they do, now it's up to you to prove that they don't" is just retarded. :rolleyes:
How about next time you quote what I was responding to, and not just my response since I was directly responding to his assumption, which was not about unicorns.
I stand by my comments. I am not butthurt and I could care less who you work for or what you think you know about the AR, parts or anything else.
See my response to your butthurt in red:
I stand by my comments. I am not butthurt and I could care less who you work for or what you think you know about the AR, parts or anything else.
Ok.......:cray:
How about next time you quote what I was responding to, and not just my response since I was directly responding to his assumption, which was not about unicorns.
:confused: Are you being facetious/trolling? Or do you actually believe that I confused knowledge about the AR platform with knowledge about unicorns?
F-Trooper05
08-05-13, 02:35
I'd agree with this.
Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.
One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.
Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).
Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.
On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
If your Windham had cost half as much as a Colt or BCM I'd say you have a point, but the fact that you saved maybe $200 by buying a gun from a company that doesn't even own a torque wrench (sarcasm) has me scratching my head.
If your Windham had cost half as much as a Colt or BCM I'd say you have a point, but the fact that you saved maybe $200 by buying a gun from a company that doesn't even own a torque wrench (sarcasm) has me scratching my head.
You know for fact that they don't have a torque wrench in their shop?
Pretty bold statement to make there.
You know for fact that they don't have a torque wrench in their shop?
Pretty bold statement to make there.
Are you fluent in English?
Are you fluent in English?
Why yes I am, but apparently, and I will assume that you don't understand that the way something sounds to you when you are posting something in text may not convey the tone that you are thinking.
Yes, you wrote, (sarcasm), but what kind of sarcasm is that?
They either own a torque wrench or they don't.
(love the personal attacks, stay classy!)
Why yes I am, but apparently, and I will assume that you don't understand that the way something sounds to you when you are posting something in text may not convey the tone that you are thinking.
Yes, you wrote, (sarcasm), but what kind of sarcasm is that?
They either own a torque wrench or they don't.
(love the personal attacks, stay classy!)
1) I didn't write that.
2) You're ASSuming I'm personally attacking you. I'm asking a question, because not everyone here speaks English fluently.
1) I didn't write that.
2) You're ASSuming I'm personally attacking you. I'm asking a question, because not everyone here speaks English fluently.
Well, for those that don't "speeka da englis" as well as you do, explain what you meant when you wrote:
"from a company that doesn't even own a torque wrench (sarcasm)"
D.S. Brown
08-05-13, 05:44
Well, for those that don't "speeka da englis" as well as you do, explain what you meant when you wrote:
"from a company that doesn't even own a torque wrench (sarcasm)"
Granted I only have average intelligence, but I "got" what he meant by the "(sarcasm)" of WW not even owning a torque wrench. He was alluding to the improbable idea that a manufacturer of AR 15's doesn't even possess a rudimentary tool, such as a torque wrench, let alone tools and machines of even a more complex nature required to manufacture and assemble AR-15's, and yet that is precisely what they are doing, thus calling into question the process and quality of said AR-15's produced.
I for one appreciate your presence in this thread, because intentionally or unintentionally, you are proving the point of the OP and many of the posters on this thread soundly. Thank you for your contribution (sarcasm).
In all seriousness my military time was 23+ years ago. I was infantry, and hardly G-ds gift to M-16's/AR-15's. So 6 years ago I came across this forum, while owning a sub-par CMMG, (oxymoron). I read, I learned, and I listened, and I kept an open mind. The amount of industry and military knowledge on this sight dwarfs other locations on the error net handily. Like others have said why wouldn't I listen to these pros, especially the former military people that have BTDT, and do instruction, and have seen literally thousands of AR's from assorted manufacturers come through their classes, and have demonstrably shown on a consistent basis, that your BCM's, Colts, and Daniel Defense's perform from start to stop, while your Bushmasters, CMMG's, Deltons, Olympics, and Rock Rivers don't perform well from start to finish.
However I agree in that, YOU as in YOU, and nobody else, ARE probably well served by your Windham for what you're doing with it, i.e. not going into battle, and doing some limited shooting. Good luck.
Best,
Dave
If your Windham had cost half as much as a Colt or BCM I'd say you have a point, but the fact that you saved maybe $200 by buying a gun from a company that doesn't even own a torque wrench (sarcasm) has me scratching my head.
See the screen name now bud?
Granted I only have average intelligence, but I "got" what he meant by the "(sarcasm)" of WW not even owning a torque wrench. He was alluding to the improbable idea that a manufacturer of AR 15's doesn't even possess a rudimentary tool, such as a torque wrench, let alone tools and machines of even a more complex nature required to manufacture and assemble AR-15's, and yet that is precisely what they are doing, thus calling into question the process and quality of said AR-15's produced.
I for one appreciate your presence in this thread, because intentionally or unintentionally, you are proving the point of the OP and many of the posters on this thread soundly. Thank you for your contribution (sarcasm).
In all seriousness my military time was 23+ years ago. I was infantry, and hardly G-ds gift to M-16's/AR-15's. So 6 years ago I came across this forum, while owning a sub-par CMMG, (oxymoron). I read, I learned, and I listened, and I kept an open mind. The amount of industry and military knowledge on this sight dwarfs other locations on the error net handily. Like others have said why wouldn't I listen to these pros, especially the former military people that have BTDT, and do instruction, and have seen literally thousands of AR's from assorted manufacturers come through their classes, and have demonstrably shown on a consistent basis, that your BCM's, Colts, and Daniel Defense's perform from start to stop, while your Bushmasters, CMMG's, Deltons, Olympics, and Rock Rivers don't perform well from start to finish.
However I agree in that, YOU as in YOU, and nobody else, ARE probably well served by your Windham for what you're doing with it, i.e. not going into battle, and doing some limited shooting. Good luck.
Best,
Dave
I'd bet he'd prefer to have other believe that they don't have any "rudimentary tools" in their shop, but can he prove it? If he can't, then he should not be making statements that infer a company is producing a product a questionable nature.
I think it's pretty damn ignorant to make such statements, sarcasm or not, without having any first hand knowledge.
I am happy to be of service. I guess I should apologize that I don't fit in with the apparent elite of this board.
Funny how no one in this thread bothered to ask if I owned any other rifles. Maybe they were too busy stroking their net ego's by berating anyone that didn't take the Colt fanatics words of wisdom as gospel.
It is what it is.
xwarp, I just read back through this, and you lit the candle on it.
Since you can't keep it civil, you can shut your hole. Yes, I don't care what you're saying, but the manner in which you're doing it is, quite frankly, stupid and more snotty than any "elitist" BS.
If you can't do any better than treating a clearly sarcastic statement as a factual one and build a (stupid) argument around it....congrats, you're ready to run for public office.
Stop posting in this thread.
http://imageshack.us/a/img195/1948/treeofwoe.png
sinlessorrow
08-05-13, 07:44
For those just as good as people, ask them why the Chilean Marines adopted the Colt M4 and why DPMS did not even pass inspection.
http://www.infodefensa.com/?noticia=la-infanteria-de-marina-de-chile-recibira-fusiles-colt-m4&categoria=&pais=Chile
ETA: Jsantor.... Your my hero, that edit was great!
SilverBullet432
08-05-13, 07:57
For those just as good as people, ask them why the Chilean Marines adopted the Colt M4 and why DPMS did not even pass inspection.
http://www.infodefensa.com/?noticia=la-infanteria-de-marina-de-chile-recibira-fusiles-colt-m4&categoria=&pais=Chile
wow, its right there in plain spanish! "due to problems encountered" with the weapon by special forces
i had another guy on a truck forum yesterday wanting to buy a stag, i offered him some other options (colt or bcm) which were (colt) only $100 more. guess he likes stag!!! i posted links to this thread and another, told him to do some honest reading, but there is only so much one can do!!
It is amazing that these posters armed with their limited knowledge, strong opinions, and attitude expect to be be respected, much less last very long.
They must not at least read some here to get a feel for the board before posting?
Thankfully the mods keep this sort of thing in check!
Back OT to the OP - I don't think it is worth looking for or making your own "definitive article", just a few good comments then send them here to learn.
If that does not work, so what?
At least you tried.
Fireside chat, for everybody aboard:
If you get told to stop posting in a thread, please bear in mind you're being extended a penalty-free "out" from whatever unproductive freaky-deaky nonsense that led up to that point and has gotten one to the brink of getting infracted.
It means STOP. It does not mean "Hey now, tut-tut, you stop posting after you make one more post for the sake of something hip and edgy, you bad boy, you...."
I'm not stupid enough to put forward some kind of "We can make you WISH you'd listened..." kind of nonsense; it's the internet., ffs.
However, if one decides to fire off a last salvo, and thinks it's gonna see the light of day...?
That's an even dumber idea than sallying forth with the argument that advocates spending $1000 on a rifle that's materially worth only $700
For those just as good as people, ask them why the Chilean Marines adopted the Colt M4 and why DPMS did not even pass inspection.
http://www.infodefensa.com/?noticia=la-infanteria-de-marina-de-chile-recibira-fusiles-colt-m4&categoria=&pais=Chile
ETA: Jsantor.... Your my hero, that edit was great!
Says a lot. The Jordanian army uses some DPMS and Red Jacket...
Says a lot. The Jordanian army uses some DPMS and Red Jacket...
Let's hope they ship as many DPMS, shlub masters, Stags, and other sub par ARs to our (potential) enemies as possible.
Grand58742
08-05-13, 09:24
That's an even dumber idea than sallying forth with the argument that advocates spending $1000 on a rifle that's materially worth only $700
I think you're being generous on those figures with some companies out there...
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
~H. L. Mencken
I agree with the guy that suggested telling people specific information about what I own and leaving it at that.
Army Chief
08-05-13, 10:34
The progression from benign ignorance to malignant stupidity is never an easy thing to watch.
AC
sinlessorrow
08-05-13, 11:36
Apparently there is a thread on TOS dedicated to shit brand AR's and Xwarps knowledge is truly appreciated there by what they call '13ers.
We have sadly lost some knowledge with his departure.....
Do I need a sarcasm tag or did I lay it on thick enough?
I can say my initial turn off on Colts was the SP1s, cost and availability. I could not afford to buy top of line. Now days we have it great. Available hi-quality ARs and parts can be found. BCM, DD ect. at a affordable price point. But some people will not see the light.
I'm a Scubadiver and have been asked about my dive gear and the cost.. my regulator set cost over $1200 rated to over 300 ft. drysuit over $1100. The easy answer life support equipment. I don't dive to 300 ft but it's probably not going to fail at 160 ft. I couple have got a set for $125-200 "tested" to 120 ft.
IMHO if my life may depend on it I don't have to think about dropping $$.
On other forums I try to educate people that ask about ARs and I send them here first. Of course a slew of people jump in saying Stag is just as good as Colt, or Colt is overrated, etc. etc.
Is there a definitive article that explains the differences between top tier and hobby ARs?
I just let them post their ignorance and move on. If the OP honestly asks, I give as honest and correct answer as I'm able. I don't argue with those who try to dismiss the information. I simply tell them to continue doing what makes them feel good and leave it at that.
If someone asks me in person what's good and why, I always respond by questioning what their agenda is. Anyone with an ulterior motive for asking will reveal themselves by how they respond. Life is to short to wrestle pigs in the mud. :)
There USED to be, "THE CHART" - which spelled out the 'ingredients' of various AR's by manufacturer, so you knew what you were getting. It's nominally technical, and the eyes of your typical FUDD glaze over when they see it.
Because my life has enough headaches as it is, I generally avoid discussing AR's on other boards. I just point 'em here, and tell 'em to, "READ."
You mentioned it, so I'm obliged to post this. :D
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/HateChart.jpg
I joined this site about 3 months ago and read all the AR info I could gather.
I then purchased a Colt 6920LE. My first AR. Not one problem so far.
Thanks.
mastiffhound
08-05-13, 18:27
Let's hope they ship as many DPMS, shlub masters, Stags, and other sub par ARs to our (potential) enemies as possible.
If the Iraqi, Afghani, and other insurgents used BM, Stag, and DPMS instead of Russian military grade left behind small arms the War on Terror would be over by now. Probably a hell of a lot sooner! If these companies were really patriotic they would be giving them away to foreign enemies along with reading material stating how much better they are than Colts, or even AK's. What a wonderful thought! Thank you Will!
I think the whole issue with arfcom is when people purchased their AR the intent was to take it to the range for fun while many on here bought their carbines for defense. They shot it a couple of times and decided it's "just as good as".
I think the whole issue with arfcom is when people purchased their AR the intent was to take it to the range for fun while many on here bought their carbines for defense. They shot it a couple of times and decided it's "just as good as".
A little off topic, but I quit lurking on TOS once it dawned on me that a good percentage of the site was devoted to picture threads. I found this site and realized I could have done a lot better when I purchased my complete lower from a highly recommended TOS company.
The last time we had one of these threads, it resulted in someone getting really butthurt and starting a DoS attack on M4C. :mad:
I have been on gun forums since the late 90's with a lot of hours logged on TOS. Here is what I know.
1. You cannot fix stupid.
2. Most people shoot 200rds a year and THINK that is a lot of ammo. As a gun store owner, I cannot tell you how many people have bought 50rds (to last them 6 months).
3. All guns work in the safe or in the trunk of the cruiser.
4. When people buy things with their hard earned money, it is always going to be the best (no matter if it is actually crap or not).
5. When you call up manufacturers of bolts (for instance), they will ask you which steel you want used (yes you have choices). One type of steel costs a lot more than another kind. Which steel do you think the budget oriented AR manufacturers buy????
6. To quote the owners of TOS; "This is a HOBBYIST forum." A "hobbyist" is a person that buys a tennis racket, plays twice a year (doesn't keep score) and then gives advice to friends, family and random people on the net about which racket is "best." Don't go to this forum for any type of quality knowledge.
7. The best budget AR on the planet is the S&W SPORT.
8. Colt WROTE the TDP for the M16 and the M4. Think any other company knows more about building FIGHTING guns?? Even the owners of some of the best names in the AR world will tell you that it is a compliment for their company to be listed in the same sentence as Colt.
9. Small statistical samplings prove nothing. When considering if an AR is "quality" you would need to run 100 of them for 10,000rds (all in the same conditions) and then see what you get.
10. When companies do not follow the TDP, ask yourself what "standard" are they following? Their own? If so, what does that mean and how does it hold up against the TDP?
In the end, buy what you like, but please don't tell us that all brands are equal.
C4
The last time we had one of these threads, it resulted in someone getting really butthurt and starting a DoS attack on M4C. :mad:
I have been on gun forums since the late 90's with a lot of hours logged on TOS. Here is what I know.
1. You cannot fix stupid.
2. Most people shoot 200rds a year and THINK that is a lot of ammo. As a gun store owner, I cannot tell you how many people have bought 50rds (to last them 6 months).
3. All guns work in the safe or in the trunk of the cruiser.
4. When people buy things with their hard earned money, it is always going to be the best (no matter if it is actually crap or not).
5. When you call up manufacturers of bolts (for instance), they will ask you which steel you want used (yes you have choices). One type of steel costs a lot more than another kind. Which steel do you think the budget oriented AR manufacturers buy????
6. To quote the owners of TOS; "This is a HOBBYIST forum." A "hobbyist" is a person that buys a tennis racket, plays twice a year (doesn't keep score) and then gives advice to friends, family and random people on the net about which racket is "best." Don't go to this forum for any type of quality knowledge.
7. The best budget AR on the planet is the S&W SPORT.
8. Colt WROTE the TDP for the M16 and the M4. Think any other company knows more about building FIGHTING guns?? Even the owners of some of the best names in the AR world will tell you that it is a compliment for their company to be listed in the same sentence as Colt.
9. Small statistical samplings prove nothing. When considering if an AR is "quality" you would need to run 100 of them for 10,000rds (all in the same conditions) and then see what you get.
10. When companies do not follow the TDP, ask yourself what "standard" are they following? Their own? If so, what does that mean and how does it hold up against the TDP?
In the end, buy what you like, but please don't tell us that all brands are equal.
C4
Good stuff in this post! And the reasons I joined M4Carbine and eventually purchased a Colt.
It's amazing. Whenever these threads start up, at least one person gets dramatically banned.
It's amazing. Whenever these threads start up, at least one person gets dramatically banned.
I had no idea...
I read a whole lot on this forum , and just that mods pay attention and get rid of the morons made me register here. Ive only been member for a short time, but Ive read this site pretty much for 6 months before I decided to join.
A rare thing online, actually requiring knowledge before posting...very rare indeed
The last time we had one of these threads, it resulted in someone getting really butthurt and starting a DoS attack on M4C. :mad:
I have been on gun forums since the late 90's with a lot of hours logged on TOS. Here is what I know.
1. You cannot fix stupid.
No, but you can make a lot of $$$ from it. :D
No, but you can make a lot of $$$ from it. :D
LOL. Depends. I am a high end dealer and most people want cheap. I don't do cheap so I miss out on that aspect of the AR world (which I am fine with BTW). ;)
C4
I don't post on this forum much, and mostly read up on the wealth of information. I have been through three AR15s already and the first two were S&W M&P15s and 3rd time was the charm with my Colt 6920. The M&P15 is a pretty decent option but feel better knowing Colt tests all their major components and have been in the black rifle business longer than most other AR manufacturers.
I have a friend that was wanting to buy a Rock River Arms, but I suggested he look into BCM or Colt for a rifle he could bet his life on. A friend of his said an AR is an AR and there is no difference. I can only hope he listens to me but if not, there isn't much I can do besides wish him luck with whatever choice he goes with.
Army Chief
08-06-13, 09:19
By nature, I'm one of those guys that wants to "save everybody," but I've gradually come around to the idea that, for your friend's purposes, perhaps a Rock River AR is indeed more than enough gun.
It isn't difficult to point the way to better-quality alternatives, of course, but that is because you understand why it makes a difference in the first place; hence, it carries some importance to you. If your pal's default mindset is that none of these details really matter, then the toothpaste is already out of the tube. Only so much you can do.
AC
Raven Armament
08-06-13, 09:41
By nature, I'm one of those guys that wants to "save everybody," but I've gradually come around to the idea that, for your friend's purposes, perhaps a Rock River AR is indeed more than enough gun.
Yup took a long time for me to come around too. I get a lot of people looking for an AR15 to "blast away at coyotes with". OK, go order a DPMS and I'll do the transfer on it. Much easier than trying to lecture someone about quality.
I have been through three AR15s already and the first two were S&W M&P15s and 3rd time was the charm with my Colt 6920.
I am on my 4th AR. The first two were essentially "Frankenguns" that I bought and/or traded for that were nominally OK as plinkers, but not up to the standards of the "better" ARs. I chalk those experiences up to inexperience and life lessons. I have long since sold or traded those and got a S&W MP15 Sport. A fine AR for what it is, we all know what it isn't. I sold that upper, kept the lower, and now have a BCM upper on the S&W lower. It took me a while to get here, but because of this site, some reading, and talking with those in the know, I have the rifle I will have (hopefully) forever. Education is a process, sometimes painful.
LowSpeedHighDrag
08-06-13, 20:24
The World is full of shit-heads..
My favorite threads are the "my rifle is mil-spec plus" threads. The poster will claim that a mil-spec rifle is made by the "lowest bidder" only using the "cheapest parts".
My reply is simple: Prove it
http://imageshack.us/a/img195/1948/treeofwoe.png
Last edited by JSantoro; Yesterday at 08:52 Reason: Trying to get The Last Word never works
I just spit coffee all over my keyboard. Thanks!:D
I posted this is another thread but it seem appropriate in this thread as well.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten
I have learned this the hard way on a few things.
.
SeriousStudent
08-06-13, 21:16
...whole bunch of true stuff......
In the end, buy what you like, but please don't tell us that all brands are equal.
C4
When I become Supreme Galactic Overlord, this is the consumer product safety warning I'll order to be engraved on barrels. Not stuff they do now, like "Guns may tend to make loud noises" or "Do not point directly at eye while pulling trigger".
If Jethro wants to buy an Oly AR or some Hesse abomination, rock on. But it makes me mad enough to kick a Black Lab puppy when they INSIST it's as good as a BCM/Colt/KAC/Noveske firearm.
And people wonder why we drink.......
thopkins22
08-06-13, 22:06
If Jethro wants to buy an Oly AR or some Hesse abomination, rock on. But it makes me mad enough to kick a Black Lab puppy when they INSIST it's as good as a BCM/Colt/KAC/Noveske firearm.
That's the key difference. Good enough vs. good as.
The reality is that for most folks the lower end commercial AR's are in fact good enough. It's a testament to the design that most of them work relatively well. It's the "good as" talk that lights me on fire. Or value...because at the end of the day a BCM/DD/Colt/KAC/LMT really isn't that much more expensive than the guns usually being looked at.
SeriousStudent
08-06-13, 22:11
I have saved myself a wheelbarrow full of grief in life, by just going ahead and buying whatever people said their thing was as good as.
Thirty years ago I was told "This camera is just as good as a Nikon" - I bought a Nikon F3.
Eight years ago I was told "This AR is just as good as a Colt" - I bought a 6920.
Sweet baby Jebus, it ain't rocket surgery, people.
Thirty years ago I was told "This camera is just as good as a Nikon" - I bought a Nikon F3.
I also bought a Nikon F3 HP back then...
...wish I could now get 1/2 of what I paid back then.
Should have sold it 8 yrs. ago when I sold my 400mm EDIF for about what I gave for it 30 yrs ago, oh well.
I guess I should have invested in several 70 series Gold Cups instead.
sinlessorrow
08-07-13, 00:56
It's amazing. Whenever these threads start up, at least one person gets dramatically banned.
Thats because someone always goes full retard.....and you never go full retard.
The funny thing is this is on a corvette forum where we discuss car specs all the time. When I ask these guys that want to say a sub par AR is just as good as top AR if they would buy a Corvette with pistons that wouldn't last on a track day but are good enough for the street they say hell no. It's funny how they demand quality they will never use in one product but not another.
I saw that thread over there... got to keep that 505HP Z06 sealed in the garage and covered in Zaino wax in anticipation of the track day that will never happen...
"If I only knew then what I know now..."
I own a Stag and I enjoy it. I alos own a Colt LE6920 and enjoy it too. They have both been flawless for me so far.
When I bought the Stag I didn't know any better and at the time it was $500 less than a Colt, not the $200 everybody says they are. That was 2009. I bought my Colt in September of 2012 and the price had actually gone down.
However, if I had known what I've learned from this site back when I first started buying AR's I would've bought a KAC SR15 and been way ahead in the game of life.
The best thing this site has given me isn't so much the knowledge and access to quality information, but direction. Before I was just spinning my wheels and getting nowhere fast. Now I have a heading and course to get there. So to the people who make this site possible and the members that contribute quality information and knowledge you have my sincerest thanks...:)
When I was young and money was tight it used to be a badge of honor to see how little I could spend on food.
Boy, times have changed. I like to think I wised-up since then.
Well, they say confession is good for the soul :) It can be embarrassing too! Years ago, when I was younger and knew nothing about ARs, but decided I wanted to learn about and shoot them, I listened to the gentleman :rolleyes: at my LGS, and bought a used Carbon 15. It was lightweight, and that's about all I can say good about it. Had issues. Traded that in on a Stag, again on some other local advice. Had it for a couple of years; it worked fine for me, BECAUSE I never asked much of it (the "hundred rounds a year" thing).
Along the way, I read more and more. I began to take handgun classes, and heard about carbine classes (never knew of them before then). I'm an engineer, and actually now work in the defense industry, so the engineering aspect of this is easy for me to get, once I get the actual data...which I have found here. I have been reading and NOT posting for QUITE some time. I learned a lot from that Stag about the AR platform. I staked the castle nut. I staked the gas key. I learned to adjust the irons and shoot with them. I added an RDS and learned how shooting with that compares to shooting with irons. I learned how to clean and lube the rifle. As a learning platform it served a limited but useful purpose, primarily to see the info posted here in actual hardware.
Then last year, I traded it in on a Colt LE6920 with Magpul furniture. Thanks to what I learned here, I knew what to look at when I picked it up in the store, and it was as described. Since then, I have assembled a few lowers and one upper. I have bought good quality parts from BCM, Rainier, etc. I have shot more. I discovered that I like shooting with irons, which was a surprise. Thanks to the expertise here, I never did go through the phase of hanging a lot of junk on my rifles. This is my primary source for AR info. I do not make any claim to AR expertise, but as an engineer I am engaged in lifelong learning.
My rifles are tools. Excepting a home defense situation, I never expect to go into harm's way with them, but they are at least able to support that now with confidence. For the knowledge that I have picked up from others' real experience here, I am grateful. I may have questions now and then that even searching can't answer :) As a kind of payment, I'm adding my experience to the great sum of data that "just buy a Colt" IS good practical advice, good engineering advice, and not just some elitist crap. I do my share of steering people here. I don't know if they come, but they at least receive a vector, and an admonition to read, read, read...
I'm just a guy, but over the years I've gathered a few thoughts on the subject.
All ARs are not equal
Not everyone needs a Colt
The TDP is "the standard" by virtue of being the only one published (uh, unofficially)... and it works (when used in the manner it was designed for)
People need to educate themselves on how the system operates, what's available (features), evaluate their needs and then buy accordingly
SeriousStudent
08-07-13, 19:10
Well, they say confession is good for the soul :) It can be embarrassing too! Years ago, when I was younger and knew nothing about ARs, but decided I wanted to learn about and shoot them, I listened to the gentleman :rolleyes: at my LGS, and bought a used Carbon 15. It was lightweight, and that's about all I can say good about it. Had issues. Traded that in on a Stag, again on some other local advice. Had it for a couple of years; it worked fine for me, BECAUSE I never asked much of it (the "hundred rounds a year" thing).
Along the way, I read more and more. I began to take handgun classes, and heard about carbine classes (never knew of them before then). I'm an engineer, and actually now work in the defense industry, so the engineering aspect of this is easy for me to get, once I get the actual data...which I have found here. I have been reading and NOT posting for QUITE some time. I learned a lot from that Stag about the AR platform. I staked the castle nut. I staked the gas key. I learned to adjust the irons and shoot with them. I added an RDS and learned how shooting with that compares to shooting with irons. I learned how to clean and lube the rifle. As a learning platform it served a limited but useful purpose, primarily to see the info posted here in actual hardware.
Then last year, I traded it in on a Colt LE6920 with Magpul furniture. Thanks to what I learned here, I knew what to look at when I picked it up in the store, and it was as described. Since then, I have assembled a few lowers and one upper. I have bought good quality parts from BCM, Rainier, etc. I have shot more. I discovered that I like shooting with irons, which was a surprise. Thanks to the expertise here, I never did go through the phase of hanging a lot of junk on my rifles. This is my primary source for AR info. I do not make any claim to AR expertise, but as an engineer I am engaged in lifelong learning.
My rifles are tools. Excepting a home defense situation, I never expect to go into harm's way with them, but they are at least able to support that now with confidence. For the knowledge that I have picked up from others' real experience here, I am grateful. I may have questions now and then that even searching can't answer :) As a kind of payment, I'm adding my experience to the great sum of data that "just buy a Colt" IS good practical advice, good engineering advice, and not just some elitist crap. I do my share of steering people here. I don't know if they come, but they at least receive a vector, and an admonition to read, read, read...
You are my hero. Thanks for posting the lessons learned, that's one of the best "first posts" I have read in a long time.
You are welcome! I am here to learn, and so won't post much unless I can contribute (hopefully something technical, given my background). Just wanted y'all to know that there is another appreciative lurker out there.
In not getting a Colt right out of the gate, I did learn - and learn deeply - first-hand experience about other-brand quality. Kind of like a lab, to go with the theory. They normally call that the school of hard knocks :) I certainly would not have minded giving that Carbon 15 a miss, though (multiple FTE in every mag, some light strikes..on the upside, I learned a bit about malf clearing...) Maybe baring my soul like this helps keep someone else from going there.
I see lots of low end ARs at the range work pretty good, But when you go to a really hard core training the Colts. BCMs and Daniel Defenses take a licking and keep on ticking. Several years ago a friend bought a Kahr SU ca rifle used because it was cheap and used AR 15 mags. He brought it to a training class just because and he said several bottom feeder low end ARs failed yet the Kahr made it through the day! so Buy once Cry once.
I have saved myself a wheelbarrow full of grief in life, by just going ahead and buying whatever people said their thing was as good as.
Thirty years ago I was told "This camera is just as good as a Nikon" - I bought a Nikon F3.
Eight years ago I was told "This AR is just as good as a Colt" - I bought a 6920.
Sweet baby Jebus, it ain't rocket surgery, people.I traded my F3 for a Ruger Security Six in 1994. The Nikon F3 is an awesome camera. My wife wore out several cameras that "were just like Nikons". She now owms a high end Digital Nikon, if it is half the camera that the F3 was it should last a while.
Phillygunguy
08-09-13, 13:57
I just don't see the point in educating people who want to argue why they think their Bushy, Stag, DPMS, is better than or equal to Colt. If they don't want to hear what I have to say, then let them buy a shitty AR and learn the hard way. Leave the quality ones for me.
Markasaurus
08-09-13, 13:59
All you guys saying "stick to Colt!" are probably completely correct. As it is i did actually buy a Stag because that is what my gunshop had and everything else was $300 more. Not the greatest reason to be sure. But I've put 1500 rounds through it and it works great. With my target master .22 lr Conversion kit i have put another thousand rounds with zero malfunctions.
It is not the very best AR you can get, I'm sure, and i would not ever argue that it is. I guess you could call that brand a "hobby" AR, except most of the parts are made on the same exact machines that produce the parts for the military. No it doesn't have a shot peened bolt but the rest of the gun is mil spec or mostly so. The parts are made by National Machine Co. who have been making mil-spec parts for the military for decades.
Lastly, two words caught my eye when i was deciding which M4gery to buy: LIFETIME WARRANTY. If your rifle does not have that too, then why not? Does the manufacturer not have faith in his own product?
I am told that "lifetime warranty" is not just a selling point - they do honor it.
Phillygunguy
08-09-13, 16:27
Lastly, two words caught my eye when i was deciding which M4gery to buy: LIFETIME WARRANTY. If your rifle does not have that too, then why not? Does the manufacturer not have faith in his own product?
I am told that "lifetime warranty" is not just a selling point - they do honor it.
Colt has made the AR / M16 / M4 platform and its variations that have been in all forms of combat for over 50 years, proven reliability at that
I think Colt has plenty of "faith" in their product.
I guess you could call that brand a "hobby" AR, except most of the parts are made on the same exact machines that produce the parts for the military. No it doesn't have a shot peened bolt but the rest of the gun is mil spec or mostly so. The parts are made by National Machine Co. who have been making mil-spec parts for the military for decades.
Parts may be supplied by companies that source higher end brands, but they may not be made to the same specifications. They are made to order, one company may want Carpenters 158 steel or 8620, or 9310, etc. They may not shot peen, or conduct a High Pressure Test, or Magnetic Particle Inspection. Receivers may be made out of 7075 T6 or 6065 T6 aluminum, barrels may also be made with different methods and materials, etc.
Making parts on the same machines by the same craftsmen, but skipping steps and using different materials do not equal the same product.
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