View Full Version : Knights, Daniel or Tavor (Opinions Please)
apetrulis01
08-05-13, 15:59
Hello:
I am wondering which AR I should purchase next. I have a S&W Magpul Midlength which I love but I am getting a bonus from work so I figured I would treat myself to a higher end Rifle. I am looking at the following Rifles:
- Knights S15 Mod 1
- Daniel Defense (V7 or V1)
- Tavor
Is the knights worth paying the extra money. I like that the Tavor has the overall length of a 10.5 inch AR. Let me know your opinions.
Thanks,
Adam
Knights SR15 definitely! Can't beat it IMO
Knight's. I have a s&w magpul mid too. The SR-15 is in an entirely different class.
The step up from a Daniel Defense to a SR15 is noticeable and worth the extra expense.
The Tavor is unique, but if this is your one and only go with the SR15.
Army Chief
08-05-13, 16:40
Knight's, or if the Knight's was not available, I'd go with the Knight's. If I couldn't get one of those for whatever reason, I'd probably settle for the Knight's. Am I being too subtle? lol
Daniel Defense also makes a great gun, and it isn't as if that would represent a swing-and-a-miss for you by any stretch of the imagination.
The Tavor, while interesting, represents (to me, at least) one of those guns that we all thought was cool and rushed out to buy, only to spend the next few years trying to figure out what we were ever going to use it for, only to end up selling it. My last such episode involved a SCAR. For somebody else, it may have been an ACR or a piston gun or a monolithic. We've pretty much all been there.
Unless you have your AR bases covered to your satisfaction, I wouldn't be wandering too far afield just to scratch an itch. Buy something equal to or better than what you already have.
Like a Knight's rifle, for example. ;)
AC
I would go with the DDM4 V7, a middy rifle that you know is gonna work with no proprietary parts.
Light weight, nice tubular rail that you'll be able to add any rail segments in only the places you want. Less weight added benefit.
MountainRaven
08-05-13, 16:43
Knight's.
I say this as someone who owns and really, really likes the Tavor and doesn't own a KAC.
:eek:
Boba Fett v2
08-05-13, 17:07
I'm partial to Knights, but I'm bit biased because it's now my go-to carbine. It'll make you a believer.
Boba Fett v2
08-05-13, 17:08
I would go with the DDM4 V7, a middy rifle that you know is gonna work with no proprietary parts.
Light weight, nice tubular rail that you'll be able to add any rail segments in only the places you want. Less weight added benefit.
The propriety parts argument is a non-argument in my opinion.
hotrodder636
08-05-13, 17:19
I would go with the DDM4 V7, a middy rifle that you know is gonna work with no proprietary parts.
Light weight, nice tubular rail that you'll be able to add any rail segments in only the places you want. Less weight added benefit.
The proprietary parts argument is pretty hollow. One can pretty easily find a replacement bolt and gas tube on the inter-webs. Most people won't even shoot enough to damage a "commercial" grade bolt or similar parts, so unless you are a heavy-duty shooter, I wouldn't worry too much about it. That being said, if something does break, as I said above parts can be found.
apetrulis01
08-05-13, 17:32
I know the bolt and extractor are different then mil spec...but other then the ambi parts everything the same same correct.
Adam
Army Chief
08-05-13, 17:33
Gas system (hence the gas tube) is a nonstandard length, as well, though common to other models of KAC rifles, if memory serves.
AC
apetrulis01
08-05-13, 17:35
I thought I saw it was a midlength plus gas system.......
Boba Fett v2
08-05-13, 17:36
I know the bolt and extractor are different then mil spec...but other then the ambi parts everything the same same correct.
Adam
^ The barrel nut, bolt and extractor are proprietary and an improvement to Eugene Stoner's orginal design. To say it goes beyond mil-spec is an understatement.
And, as mentioned, a non-standard length gas tube.
^ The barrel nut, bolt and extractor are proprietary and an improvement to Eugene Stoner's orginal design. To say it goes beyond mil-spec is an understatement.
And, as mentioned, a non-standard length gas tube.
To be honest, most of the SR15 besides the bolt carrier, upper receiver, and various small springs and pins are non standard.
Boba Fett v2
08-05-13, 17:43
To be honest, most of the SR15 besides the bolt carrier, upper receiver, and various small springs and pins are non standard.
Very true. Especially when you consider the barrel profile, full ambi lower, right-side CH notch in the upper receiver, etc. Just wanted to touch on the most critical proprietary components.
Army Chief
08-05-13, 17:45
I thought I saw it was a midlength plus gas system.......
The closest equivalent, perhaps, but I believe it would be more correctly described as an intermediate system.
AC
BufordTJustice
08-05-13, 18:05
The closest equivalent, perhaps, but I believe it would be more correctly described as an intermediate system.
AC
Correct. IIRC it is an SR25 gas tube repurposed for the AR15.
It's mo-bettah. Wes at MSTN has been using custom Noveske barrels ported at the Noveske "intermediate" gas port position, which is just slightly shorter than KAC's SR15 port length. He can't build those guns fast enough.
I'm going to say Knight's cause I really like mine.
Get one and you will understand what it's all about.
Tavor has the accuracy of a mini-14
wilson1911
08-05-13, 19:10
I am going to vote for Kac. the only one of those rifles I have not owned is the DD. I did shoot one at class and did not care much for weight, or trigger.
I also run geissle and kac triggers, along with NSR rails. the kac shoots better than any other rifle I have shot. this is not saying the others are bad, it's just a cut above all the others. I also own a Noveske, which you might want to consider. But for the price of a Nov, you can get a kac.
Do not let the proprietary parts thing hinder your decision if you are even close to thinking about one. If you can find someone who owns one, go shoot it, but be warned !!!!!!!! you will end up buying one. There is that much difference is how it shoots. While they are not the most accurate, they are the best shooters. If you want accuracy, go Noveske.
My brothers kac is a tac driver tho. he can almost out shoot me using his m4s vs my short dot.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/194.jpg (http://s219.photobucket.com/user/jeep4tw/media/194.jpg.html)
F-Trooper05
08-05-13, 19:15
KAC is about the only AR worth spending a retarded amount of money on IMO. Everything else in the $2K + range is mostly just buying cool guy points.
apetrulis01
08-05-13, 19:19
If it helps any I can get the Knights SR15 Mod 1 with flip up front and rear micro sight for $1759.....
Tavor for $1559
Daniels for V7: 1395 V1:1595
Adam
Gatorshark
08-05-13, 19:20
Knights first; DD second
wilson1911
08-05-13, 19:23
If :moil::moil::moil::moil::moil::moil: you can get the Kac that cheap. don't walk, RUN !!!! to the store to get it. I would even take another at that price.
If you are going to be a bear, be a Grizzly...
I have a DD V1, shot a V7 Middy...no real difference in how it shoots.
DD rifles are one of the best put together rifles around.
Now if I can get a KAC for 1700...i'd do it...but you can get a DD with an optic for the same price....
You really can't go wrong with either
If it helps any I can get the Knights SR15 Mod 1 with flip up front and rear micro sight for $1759.....
Tavor for $1559
Daniels for V7: 1395 V1:1595
Adam
Dealer cost rocks. Just buy the KAC. Or buy the tavor, flip it for $2200, and then buy the KAC.
DD's are nice but nothing special, after owning a V3 and stepping up to a SR15 I would have a hard time going back to the DD, or I'd put more than the difference in price to upgrade it to match the KAC's features.
Please do not forget to consider LMT. The MRP is a fine firearm.
That said, with the current choices, i'd say either the KAC or the DD will be great rifles. Seeing as I am an unfortunate soul from Kalifornia, I have no experience with KAC.
Also, never buy a bullpup unless you have an affinity for ugly guns and bad triggers.
coastwatcher42
08-06-13, 00:02
Get the Knights...I got one about two weeks ago and, no offense to the Daniel Defense, there's nothing else like it.
I've owned both KAC and DD. Both are great but I don't have the DD anymore. It was sold at the first of the year to make room for some more KAC.
If a SR15 is on your list, everything else is a waste of money.
jerrysimons
08-06-13, 00:42
Correct. IIRC it is an SR25 gas tube repurposed for the AR15.
It's mo-bettah. Wes at MSTN has been using custom Noveske barrels ported at the Noveske "intermediate" gas port position, which is just slightly shorter than KAC's SR15 port length. He can't build those guns fast enough.
Cool! Are the barrels special order? Or cut down 18"?
Does the E3 bolt require a specific barrel extension?
Instaurator
08-06-13, 01:09
Tavor has the accuracy of a mini-14
I can run a mini-14 better than a lot of guys can run an AR. I also can put head shots consistently on target with a mini-14 at 100 yards. The recoil impulses and action motion on a mini-14 are milder than an AR, so most people will be able to shoot a mini-14 faster and more accurately than a stock AR. they get a bad rap on this forum, most likely from guys who haven't run a few hundred rounds through them. I understand buying good ARs. I bought a BCM because of the knowledge I gained on this forum, however if the Tavor runs like a mini-14 it will be more than enough to be an effective weapon. The mini-14, the Tavor, any AR above a franken-gun, is going to be more accurate and more reliable than I am on my best day. Sure the mini-14 doesn't have the track record for being "reliable" (whatever that can mean) but I'd like to see someone kick a malfunction clear on an AR. Its not a sub par weapon despite the negative press it gets on the interwebs. Look at all the people shot and killed with Hi-Point pistols. I consider that a sub par weapon, but is that not a tool that can fufill its purpose? Quality control should be better than what it is at Ruger, but that doesn't mean the design is worthless. Sorry to hijack the thread. Bottom line: if you find a mini-14 or a tavor in the zombie apocolypse, I bet you will be slaying the zombies just fine.
I considered the KAC 300BLK SBR, but went with Daniel Defense instead because I liked the barrel on the DD gun better, and the Daniel Defense (even taking the SOPMOD stock into account) is a half pound lighter. The 16" guns are almost identical in weight.
That said, KAC does have some cool features. Most of which I will install on my DD (Combat trigger guard, Geissele trigger, SOPMOD stock, etc.). I train to use standard controls and they work fine for me even shooting support-side, so that's a "CDI" factor (kindof like the trigger-guard, but hey, I like it, so I won't judge!).
Like someone else said, you shoot enough to break the bolt? A new bolt is peanuts compared to the ammo, and a new BCG for a DD costs less than just the Bolt on the KAC, so even the cost vs. cost apples/apples comes up shot.
I have a DD rifle already, in addition to the SBR I am waiting on, and it's been great.
I have NOT shot a KAC.
What does the KAC offer that I am missing? I am aware that "intangibles" exist, but what are they, here?
If you can get a SR15 for that much get me one too. :D
apetrulis01
08-06-13, 08:13
I am going to vote for Kac. the only one of those rifles I have not owned is the DD. I did shoot one at class and did not care much for weight, or trigger.
I also run geissle and kac triggers, along with NSR rails. the kac shoots better than any other rifle I have shot. this is not saying the others are bad, it's just a cut above all the others. I also own a Noveske, which you might want to consider. But for the price of a Nov, you can get a kac.
Do not let the proprietary parts thing hinder your decision if you are even close to thinking about one. If you can find someone who owns one, go shoot it, but be warned !!!!!!!! you will end up buying one. There is that much difference is how it shoots. While they are not the most accurate, they are the best shooters. If you want accuracy, go Noveske.
My brothers kac is a tac driver tho. he can almost out shoot me using his m4s vs my short dot.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/194.jpg (http://s219.photobucket.com/user/jeep4tw/media/194.jpg.html)
So KAC is not that accurate?
MountainRaven
08-06-13, 08:28
I have NOT shot a KAC.
What does the KAC offer that I am missing? I am aware that "intangibles" exist, but what are they, here?
Read the "What makes the KAC so great?" thread on this forum.
So KAC is not that accurate?
He's saying the opposite, dude.
:p
apetrulis01
08-06-13, 08:32
He stated: While they are not the most accurate, they are the best shooters. If you want accuracy, go Noveske.
My brothers kac is a tac driver tho. he can almost out shoot me using his m4s vs my short dot.
He stated his brother's is accurate, but seems not as a whole. Just wondering.
It's a stupid statement with no mention of loadings, shot groups, distance or shooter ability.
Army Chief
08-06-13, 09:08
One of the things that always makes me laugh at myself when the SR-15E3 comes up is the fact that I had something of a "Saul on the road to Damascus" experience with them myself. I saw folks extolling the virtues of the gun on the various boards and thought that I understood the hype fairly well, but I had a hard time seeing how any of that was relevant to me. Stoner improved a few things on his carbine while working for KAC. Got it. No big deal. I didn't need another competent AR.
That was more or less my stance. Didn't dislike them, but neither was I going to shell out two-plus bills to join the club. KAC stuff was nice, but expensive, and I was already tired of playing that game as a 1911 shooter. I've recounted the story before, but I was passing through the gun shop one day at lunch because I wanted to see an A3 AUG. They had an SR sitting right next to it, which I didn't really care about, but since it had ambi features that I hadn't seen before (I'm a southpaw), I asked to take a quick look. An afterthought, really. 30-seconds later, I was in the market for an SR.
Now, granted, this is all anecdotal, and we've discussed the parts and design features that make the KAC special, but the part that initially floored me was how they managed to make a competent 16" rifle feel more like a much smaller and lighter gun. Ignoring for the moment the actual shooting characteristics of the SR, it balances incredibly well, feels extremely light in the hand, and leaves an immediate impression of tight integration. Everything just fits and works together beautifully, and while that is admittedly hard to quanify, if you've ever built a nice rifle that still struck you as sort of clunky or forced-together when you were done, then you can appreciate why the SR comes across as something in an entirely different class.
Didn't necessarily mean to focus on intangibles here, but I think the metrics and specs are fairly well-known, as is the reputation of the gun where reliability and accuracy are concerned. That data is easier to quantify. The subjective stuff is a bit more elusive sometimes. I'm not in the employ of KAC, have never really been shown any special favor by the guys in Vero Beach, and stand to gain nothing from sharing these thoughts. Don't even have a t-shirt or Velcro KAC patch.
I do, however, like these rifles.
AC
ScatmanCrothers
08-06-13, 09:09
He stated: While they are not the most accurate, they are the best shooters. If you want accuracy, go Noveske.
My brothers kac is a tac driver tho. he can almost out shoot me using his m4s vs my short dot.
He stated his brother's is accurate, but seems not as a whole. Just wondering.
It's more of a testament to Noveske barrels and their reputable accuracy than a KAC and lack therof. KAC's are more reputable for ease of handling and fast manipulations than sub-moa barrels. Both are worth their asking prices.
Desert Dog
08-06-13, 10:58
One of the things that always makes me laugh at myself when the SR-15E3 comes up is the fact that I had something of a "Saul on the road to Damascus" experience with them myself. I saw folks extolling the virtues of the gun on the various boards and thought that I understood the hype fairly well, but I had a hard time seeing how any of that was relevant to me. Stoner improved a few things on his carbine while working for KAC. Got it. No big deal. I didn't need another competent AR.
That was more or less my stance. Didn't dislike them, but neither was I going to shell out two-plus bills to join the club. KAC stuff was nice, but expensive, and I was already tired of playing that game as a 1911 shooter. I've recounted the story before, but I was passing through the gun shop one day at lunch because I wanted to see an A3 AUG. They had an SR sitting right next to it, which I didn't really care about, but since it had ambi features that I hadn't seen before (I'm a southpaw), I asked to take a quick look. An afterthought, really. 30-seconds later, I was in the market for an SR.
Now, granted, this is all anecdotal, and we've discussed the parts and design features that make the KAC special, but the part that initially floored me was how they managed to make a competent 16" rifle feel more like a much smaller and lighter gun. Ignoring for the moment the actual shooting characteristics of the SR, it balances incredibly well, feels extremely light in the hand, and leaves an immediate impression of tight integration. Everything just fits and works together beautifully, and while that is admittedly hard to quanify, if you've ever built a nice rifle that still struck you as sort of clunky or forced-together when you were done, then you can appreciate why the SR comes across as something in an entirely different class.
Didn't necessarily mean to focus on intangibles here, but I think the metrics and specs are fairly well-known, as is the reputation of the gun where reliability and accuracy are concerned. That data is easier to quantify. The subjective stuff is a bit more elusive sometimes. I'm not in the employ of KAC, have never really been shown any special favor by the guys in Vero Beach, and stand to gain nothing from sharing these thoughts. Don't even have a t-shirt or Velcro KAC patch.
I do, however, like these rifles.
AC
Spot on. I had a similar experience. It is hard to explain, but KAC represents the current quality and engineering high water mark for an out-of-box AR rifle. This truly is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
If you are constrained by the notion that mil spec is your benchmark, then it also becomes your ceiling. Knight's makes mil spec the floor and then evolves the design further by considering what can be done free of such limiting constraints. While the differences may seem small nuances to some, it really does represent state-of-the-art in an AR.
Whether a person wants/needs or is willing/capable of paying for this state-of-the-art AR design is an entirely separate issue. The fact remains: Knight's SR-15E3 is the current industry benchmark in terms of quality and evolving the AR design beyond mil spec.
Spot on. I had a similar experience. It is hard to explain, but KAC represents the current quality and engineering high water mark for an out-of-box AR rifle. This truly is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
If you are constrained by the notion that mil spec is your benchmark, then it also becomes your ceiling. Knight's makes mil spec the floor and then evolves the design further by considering what can be done free of such limiting constraints. While the differences may seem small nuances to some, it really does represent state-of-the-art in an AR.
Whether a person wants/needs or is willing/capable of paying for this state-of-the-art AR design is an entirely separate issue. The fact remains: Knight's SR-15E3 is the current industry benchmark in terms of quality and evolving the AR design beyond mil spec.
I only wish I could express my experiences with the SR15's I own as articulate and eloquently as AC and Desert Dog have but, it's just easier for me to quote them and state that I share the same sentiment.
Boba Fett v2
08-06-13, 12:47
So KAC is not that accurate?
The SR-15 is plenty accurate for combat/tactical applications in real world situations. If you want a tack driver and be able to hit the dust off a gnat's ass at 600+ meters then you probably need to be looking at another platform.
Army Chief
08-06-13, 12:49
The SR-15 is plenty accurate for combat/tactical applications in real world situations. If you want a tack driver and be able to hit the dust off a gnat's ass at 600+ meters then you probably need to be looking at another platform.
... and, in my case, a different shooter. lol
AC
Boba Fett v2
08-06-13, 12:54
One of the things that always makes me laugh at myself when the SR-15E3 comes up is the fact that I had something of a "Saul on the road to Damascus" experience with them myself. I saw folks extolling the virtues of the gun on the various boards and thought that I understood the hype fairly well, but I had a hard time seeing how any of that was relevant to me. Stoner improved a few things on his carbine while working for KAC. Got it. No big deal. I didn't need another competent AR.
That was more or less my stance. Didn't dislike them, but neither was I going to shell out two-plus bills to join the club. KAC stuff was nice, but expensive, and I was already tired of playing that game as a 1911 shooter. I've recounted the story before, but I was passing through the gun shop one day at lunch because I wanted to see an A3 AUG. They had an SR sitting right next to it, which I didn't really care about, but since it had ambi features that I hadn't seen before (I'm a southpaw), I asked to take a quick look. An afterthought, really. 30-seconds later, I was in the market for an SR.
Now, granted, this is all anecdotal, and we've discussed the parts and design features that make the KAC special, but the part that initially floored me was how they managed to make a competent 16" rifle feel more like a much smaller and lighter gun. Ignoring for the moment the actual shooting characteristics of the SR, it balances incredibly well, feels extremely light in the hand, and leaves an immediate impression of tight integration. Everything just fits and works together beautifully, and while that is admittedly hard to quanify, if you've ever built a nice rifle that still struck you as sort of clunky or forced-together when you were done, then you can appreciate why the SR comes across as something in an entirely different class.
Didn't necessarily mean to focus on intangibles here, but I think the metrics and specs are fairly well-known, as is the reputation of the gun where reliability and accuracy are concerned. That data is easier to quantify. The subjective stuff is a bit more elusive sometimes. I'm not in the employ of KAC, have never really been shown any special favor by the guys in Vero Beach, and stand to gain nothing from sharing these thoughts. Don't even have a t-shirt or Velcro KAC patch.
I do, however, like these rifles.
AC
Spot on. I had a similar experience. It is hard to explain, but KAC represents the current quality and engineering high water mark for an out-of-box AR rifle. This truly is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
If you are constrained by the notion that mil spec is your benchmark, then it also becomes your ceiling. Knight's makes mil spec the floor and then evolves the design further by considering what can be done free of such limiting constraints. While the differences may seem small nuances to some, it really does represent state-of-the-art in an AR.
Whether a person wants/needs or is willing/capable of paying for this state-of-the-art AR design is an entirely separate issue. The fact remains: Knight's SR-15E3 is the current industry benchmark in terms of quality and evolving the AR design beyond mil spec.
Well said. You both articulated what I could not put into words.
I liked mine so much, I bought a second.
Op, I can't comment for two of your three, but I have purchased 2 SR15's and ran them in 3gun. I have since sold one completely and sold the upper off the other. I agree with the comments about a KAC's accuracy. They are more of a fighting purpose gun than precision purpose gun. Depending on your intended use, keep that in mind.
The lower I kept is part of my SBR. KAC lowers are top notch. I really like the placement and nature of the ambi controls. Compared to my first AR - an M&P - my KAC has a feel that says quality. Mine have accepted any and all accessories I've attached to it. I've tried several different uppers on my KAC lower and they all lock up tight. The attention to spec definitely sets these apart.
The uppers and barrel systems are okay. Sure the intermediate gas system is smooth. The weight and design of the upper/lower is balanced. But, so is my rifle length Noveske set up. Noveske also offers an intermediate gas system. What's more, the upper components are proprietary. Contrary to most KAC lovers, it is a pain in the ass to have to source "special" replacement parts. In a SHTF scenario, I'd rather rummage for spare parts that are more common than less. Add to that, if you want to change out your rail system, then be prepared to spend a wad on a proprietary barrel wrench and or to send off your upper to someone that has one.
The price you quoted is a good deal for a KAC. I'd have to see how it's spec'd out to know how good of a deal you're getting. The newer Knights rails are better than their old quad rails. I haven't shopped Knights in a while and am not aware of the typical package being offered. However, before committing to anything, check this out and see what you think. http://www.gungalleryjax.com/armory/pc/Noveske-14-5-Lt-Carbine-with-NSR-24p40.htm Enjoy. :)
Boba Fett v2
08-07-13, 07:53
Op, I can't comment for two of your three, but I have purchased 2 SR15's and ran them in 3gun. I have since sold one completely and sold the upper off the other. I agree with the comments about a KAC's accuracy. They are more of a fighting purpose gun than precision purpose gun. Depending on your intended use, keep that in mind.
The lower I kept is part of my SBR. KAC lowers are top notch. I really like the placement and nature of the ambi controls. Compared to my first AR - an M&P - my KAC has a feel that says quality. Mine have accepted any and all accessories I've attached to it. I've tried several different uppers on my KAC lower and they all lock up tight. The attention to spec definitely sets these apart.
The uppers and barrel systems are okay. Sure the intermediate gas system is smooth. The weight and design of the upper/lower is balanced. But, so is my rifle length Noveske set up. Noveske also offers an intermediate gas system. What's more, the upper components are proprietary. Contrary to most KAC lovers, it is a pain in the ass to have to source "special" replacement parts. In a SHTF scenario, I'd rather rummage for spare parts that are more common than less. Add to that, if you want to change out your rail system, then be prepared to spend a wad on a proprietary barrel wrench and or to send off your upper to someone that has one.The price you quoted is a good deal for a KAC. I'd have to see how it's spec'd out to know how good of a deal you're getting. The newer Knights rails are better than their old quad rails. I haven't shopped Knights in a while and am not aware of the typical package being offered. However, before committing to anything, check this out and see what you think. http://www.gungalleryjax.com/armory/pc/Noveske-14-5-Lt-Carbine-with-NSR-24p40.htm Enjoy. :)
Who has time to replace broken parts in a no-shit SHTF scenario? I'd be ditching broke guns for working guns I'm pulling off dead bodies. Or at least salvaging parts I need like complete uppers. :help: Not saying KACs are infallable, but the reason why we invest in these systems is because it's an improvement on a proven design with components designed to significantly outlast their non-proprietary counterparts. If all hell break loose and my E3 takes a shit and I don't have any spare parts on hand... well then I guess I can think back to this thread and say to myself "You know, they were right.", before I pull out the Sig and go out in a blaze of glory...
All fantasy BS aside, and as previously stated, the proprietary parts argument is a non-argument. Do what you like.
Buddy you can't buy that SR-15 fast enough.
a no-shit SHTF scenario?
Would that be a "HTF" scenario then?
MountainRaven
08-07-13, 09:16
Would that be a "HTF" scenario then?
It's where somebody grabs you and starts mashing your face into a running fan.
Not pleasant.
;)
Boba Fett v2
08-07-13, 09:29
Would that be a "HTF" scenario then?
A no-shit SHTF scencario would be a real SHTF scenario as opposed to a normal SHTF scenario that implies a fantasy SHTF scenario which doesn't necessarily qualify as a no-shit SHTF scenario.
I agree that the proprietary parts is a non issue, but if you can't wrap your mind around the fact that they probably won't break/wear out, then buy some spare parts or better yet a second SR.
Does anybody making the parts argument own a scar,308 AR, FAL, old or new glock, sig or hk,1911? Amazingly enough all their parts aren't interchangeable. So I have declared this argument invalid.
Hello:
I am wondering which AR I should purchase next. I have a S&W Magpul Midlength which I love but I am getting a bonus from work so I figured I would treat myself to a higher end Rifle. I am looking at the following Rifles:
- Knights S15 Mod 1
- Daniel Defense (V7 or V1)
- Tavor
Is the knights worth paying the extra money. I like that the Tavor has the overall length of a 10.5 inch AR. Let me know your opinions.
Thanks,
Adam
were i you, it would depend entirely on the size of the bonus.
can you "finish" the KAC with optic, light, mounts, sling, etc. within the bonus amount?
or do you "settle" for a DD with most of that stuff for the same amount?
as another poster said, and esp since you're an LEO, i'd step up to another AR that is top quality before going on a tangent with the Tavor.
(don't get me wrong, i like the tavor and will probably get one some day)
WickedWillis
08-07-13, 11:43
I was fortunate enough to fire one last weekend. This is not the experience I had. Once I got over how the trigger felt (very odd) It was more accurate than my BCM middy.
Tavor has the accuracy of a mini-14
A no-shit SHTF scencario would be a real SHTF scenario as opposed to a normal SHTF scenario that implies a fantasy SHTF scenario which doesn't necessarily qualify as a no-shit SHTF scenario.
So a no-shit shit hit the fan scenario is actually an extra-shit shit hit the fan scenario?
Man, that's bad marketing. Like if sugar-free gum was actually extra-sugar gum.
Boba Fett v2
08-07-13, 13:43
So a no-shit shit hit the fan scenario is actually an extra-shit shit hit the fan scenario?
Man, that's bad marketing. Like if sugar-free gum was actually extra-sugar gum.
Negative. A no-shit shit hit the fan scenario implies a real-world-everything-gone-to-hell-I-wouldn't-be-on-the-internet-fantasizing-about-a-probable-shit-hit-the-fan-scenario scenario. Unlike extra sugar-free gum...
You may get the impression that AC like KAC if you read between the line.
It is funny that our instructor ribbed him a bit for it in the class we took together.
Knight's, or if the Knight's was not available, I'd go with the Knight's. If I couldn't get one of those for whatever reason, I'd probably settle for the Knight's. Am I being too subtle? lol
Daniel Defense also makes a great gun, and it isn't as if that would represent a swing-and-a-miss for you by any stretch of the imagination.
The Tavor, while interesting, represents (to me, at least) one of those guns that we all thought was cool and rushed out to buy, only to spend the next few years trying to figure out what we were ever going to use it for, only to end up selling it. My last such episode involved a SCAR. For somebody else, it may have been an ACR or a piston gun or a monolithic. We've pretty much all been there.
Unless you have your AR bases covered to your satisfaction, I wouldn't be wandering too far afield just to scratch an itch. Buy something equal to or better than what you already have.
Like a Knight's rifle, for example. ;)
AC
Knight's, or if the Knight's was not available, I'd go with the Knight's. If I couldn't get one of those for whatever reason, I'd probably settle for the Knight's. Am I being too subtle? lol
Daniel Defense also makes a great gun, and it isn't as if that would represent a swing-and-a-miss for you by any stretch of the imagination.
The Tavor, while interesting, represents (to me, at least) one of those guns that we all thought was cool and rushed out to buy, only to spend the next few years trying to figure out what we were ever going to use it for, only to end up selling it. My last such episode involved a SCAR. For somebody else, it may have been an ACR or a piston gun or a monolithic. We've pretty much all been there.
Unless you have your AR bases covered to your satisfaction, I wouldn't be wandering too far afield just to scratch an itch. Buy something equal to or better than what you already have.
Like a Knight's rifle, for example. ;)
AC
After that post, I'm not sure what you recommend :p
If the OP wants an AR pattern rifle, the KAC is definitely on top of the list, followed by DD.
I think the Tavor is a cool rifle, but only if its something you want to own and can overlook its downsides. it is a nice short rifle that is very unique; I would try one first if you can before buying one.
Army Chief
08-08-13, 22:05
Like I said, I'm subtle, guys ... really subtle. You have to pay close attention. ;)
AC
Out of those 3 choices, if you can pick up the KAC for 17 and change, then I would jump on it. As a previous owner of several SR-15's, like others, I wasn't too impressed with its accuracy. The rifle was a pleasure to shoot though. KAC really did their homework with the gas system. Light weight as well. You can move from target to target nicely with it.
One point that has not been emphasized enough is the KAC's weight. It's the lightest AR I have ever handled. In fact when I was first handed mine, I seriously thought something was wrong because it was so light (E3 IWS). It's such an amazingly light and well balanced rifle that I purchased the LPR version.
As far as "proprietary parts" discussion, I would just say, that if every time a manufacturer makes an improvement to the AR platform on the order of magnitude KAC has (e.g. rounded lugs on the bolt) and the crew on this forum complains that no one should buy that platform because it's proprietary, then this will create a disincentive to improve the platform. No, I don't think the CEO of Colt is directing the company's R&D based on this forum, but you get my point. The changes KAC made to the AR platform are improvements. Try substituting the word "better" for "proprietary" and check out the logic of your posts. Not every change is an improvement of course, but you have to allow AR makers to flex their R&D imagination.
F-Trooper05
08-09-13, 00:16
For everyone saying KAC's are lacking in the accuracy department, I must ask what sort of shooting you guys are doing? Bench shooting with a magnified optic out to 500? Or shooting from the prone out to 200 with an Aimpoint/EOTech?
I ask because I've never noticed anything good or bad about SR15's in terms of accuracy. They seem about as accurate as any other Colt/BCM/DD I've ever fired. Then again, I don't bench shoot for extreme precision, so maybe I'm missing something...
I have an SR15 with a Leatherwood CMR 1-4x... At first I was disappointed in my groups from bench at 100 Yards. But then I thought about it for a second.
I fired 20 rounds of Federal XM193 after zeroing the scope, not rapid but maybe one shot every 3-5 seconds. It was about 95 degrees and direct sunlight, so I was not really "in the zone" that day. I also had 20 rounds left in my range bag... so i just HAD to shoot them!
Anyways, all 20 rounds landed on my 6 inch circle target down range. Like I said, initially I was mad at the rifle and the 6 inch group I had achieved with it. However, for what I'm doing with the rifle and how I felt that day, I'm not at all disappointed in the rifle. I'm sure in better conditions with a better scope and better ammo and a better bench and better background music and yards yards yards, I could tighten those up. But this isn't a bench rifle, it's my go-to defensive carbine with a 1-4x optic. I'll take it!
I've yet to try and stretch its legs past 100yds, and only have maybe 300 rounds through it... But it's on par with any other AR15 I've fired. I'm extremely happy with the rifle, but I came from owning a Spikes Tactical mid length that I had built. So take that for what it's worth haha
I have an SR15 with a Leatherwood CMR 1-4x... At first I was disappointed in my groups from bench at 100 Yards. But then I thought about it for a second.
I fired 20 rounds of Federal XM193 after zeroing the scope, not rapid but maybe one shot every 3-5 seconds. It was about 95 degrees and direct sunlight, so I was not really "in the zone" that day. I also had 20 rounds left in my range bag... so i just HAD to shoot them!
Anyways, all 20 rounds landed on my 6 inch circle target down range. Like I said, initially I was mad at the rifle and the 6 inch group I had achieved with it. However, for what I'm doing with the rifle and how I felt that day, I'm not at all disappointed in the rifle. I'm sure in better conditions with a better scope and better ammo and a better bench and better background music and yards yards yards, I could tighten those up. But this isn't a bench rifle, it's my go-to defensive carbine with a 1-4x optic. I'll take it!
I've yet to try and stretch its legs past 100yds, and only have maybe 300 rounds through it... But it's on par with any other AR15 I've fired. I'm extremely happy with the rifle, but I came from owning a Spikes Tactical mid length that I had built. So take that for what it's worth haha
Ummm... I think the problem is definitely the Indian, not the arrow :D
6-inch groups are all over the place for a top of the line rifle. You need to practice shooting and you will get better grouping. Also 20rds??? You can afford an expensive Tier1 rifle and can't afford more ammo? LOL
It's obvious you skimmed what I posted, but I'll respond anyhow...
After I sighted in a new scope, I rushed through the final 20 rounds I had brought with me. I put about 200 through it that day, but I'm not sure what difference it makes to you what I shot that day.
Also, it was hot and I was rushing (I was tired and range was closing)... The rifle was hot, I couldn't keep sweat out of my eyes, etc etc. I even said that I was the problem and I don't fault the rifle. In fact, I said for what I'm using the rifle for (my go-to defensive carbine), that final group was plenty fine with me. I was happy to get all 20 on target. Does anyone expect to shoot an MOA group when your target is returning fire, or your adrenelin is pumping?
Last year I really wanted an SR15, but alas, none of their dealers would bastardize one to make it NJ legal before sending it here and I don't trust any local FFL to be competent enough to make the appropriate modifications. So I ordered a PredatAR and am happy as a pig in poop.
That being said, as soon as I move to a normal state, I will be getting an SR15...
Get the KAC!
If you can get an SR-15 for that price it is a no-brainer.
To offer this thread another data point in SR-15 accuracy, here is a 100 yard group I shot two years ago with my SR-15. It's not a benchrest competition winner, but it is far more accurate than it needs to be.
112 degrees outside(yes, it gets hot in AZ), 69gr SMK store bought ammo. A good handloader could shrink the group further.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/87228/69SMK_zpse8bc8256.jpg (http://s82.photobucket.com/user/87228/media/69SMK_zpse8bc8256.jpg.html)
Pathfinder2041
08-12-13, 07:10
My Knight's Carbine is my GO TO RIFLE. DD makes a great product, and great value for the money. The SR 15 is a no compromise rifle that just plain works, no muss, no fuss, no kidding! If cost is an issue, go with the DD in any version since they are a great value for the money.
If you like 8# gritty kitty triggers, go with a Tavor. I picked one up, tried the trigger, gave it back to LGS employee and walked away. I am intrigued by a well thought out bullpup rifle, but with the triggers available for the AR platform, to have just along, sloppy trigger on a modern firearm is a travesty.
Magic_Salad0892
08-12-13, 08:30
The Knight's gun is the only real option, in my opinion.
Unless you want a higher grade basic rifle. Then DD.
But if you want a gun that is a truly enhanced design... then KAC.
Specifically the Mod. 1 with 3.1 URX rail, and micro sights.
I wouldn't even consider the Tavor. If I had to branch away from ARs, it'd be a SCAR-L, and have the barrel cut to 10.5''.
I think the answer depends on exactly the size of your work bonus, and how many rifles you can purchase in the near future:
KACs tend to multiply...:smile:
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