View Full Version : Finally got to see a Troy rifle.
F-Trooper05
08-06-13, 04:56
I got to look at the complete Troy rifle for the first time today. I was excited to finally see them, despite the fact that they've gone up in price since leaving Dick's Sporting Goods (they now retail for $1,399, as opposed to $1,100). Unfortunately I was quite disappointed when I looked at the BCG's.
These are from three separate rifles. Doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy...
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy1_zpsdb373cec.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy1_zpsdb373cec.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy2_zpscc6ff88b.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy2_zpscc6ff88b.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy3_zpsec3c3451.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy3_zpsec3c3451.jpg.html)
I got to look at the complete Troy rifle for the first time today. I was excited to finally see them, despite the fact that they've gone up in price since leaving Dick's Sporting Goods (they now retail for $1,399, as opposed to $1,100). Unfortunately I was quite disappointed when I looked at the BCG's.
These are from three separate rifles. Doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy... ]
No it certainly doesn't. That's a pretty lame attempt at staking.
I agree, WEAK attempt. While one could stake it themselves, it shouldn't be necessary at that price. In addition, the pics don't make that appear to be a full auto carrier. While not a huge function issue, at that price, the bolt carrier group should be 100% milspec. The melonite coated barrel intrigues me, but Troy has not divulged who makes there barrels, by which process, and from which cmv flavor. I have not heard that they are making their own major components. Until such EXACT info is no longer guarded under the logic of "proprietary process", I will only buy Troy sights and rails. While the person with whom I spoke at Troy was very nice and professional (I have no doubt their customer service is excellent), I did not like the lack of info regarding barrel questions. It isn't like they came up with a new magic barrel steel and barrel manufacturing process! For any business proud of their product......any product, they should be willing to divulge such info.....there is nothing on that rifle that is "proprietary"!
Just my .02
Why stake it at all if thats the best they can do?
No thank you..my old 900 dollar SW MP had way better staking than that
I had a Troy carbine for a while. It had a Toolcraft full auto carrier and MP marked bolt. Had the Toolcraft cage code stamped in the carrier. Maybe they get BCGs from different suppliers based on availability.
midSCarolina
08-06-13, 10:22
I had a Troy carbine for a while. It had a Toolcraft full auto carrier and MP marked bolt. Had the Toolcraft cage code stamped in the carrier. Maybe they get BCGs from different suppliers based on availability.
Regardless... thay should have rejected those carriers. If Troy was concerned about quality, they should have never seen the inside of a rifle. There is a Troy at an LGS (or at least it was there last week) so i will go check the staking on that carrier but either way, I don't think it is really going to persuade me to choose Troy over BCM, Colt, DD, LMT, Noveske.
NeoNeanderthal
08-06-13, 10:35
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy1_zpsdb373cec.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy1_zpsdb373cec.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy2_zpscc6ff88b.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy2_zpscc6ff88b.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy3_zpsec3c3451.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy3_zpsec3c3451.jpg.html)
Ew, Gross! I just threw up in my mouth a little. Forum policy states you should warn people at the top of your thread before posting disturbing/graphic images.
Very discouraging to see, I purchased a Troy rifle during the Black Friday deal and my carrier has excellent staking and is a full-auto carrier. I have yet to encounter even a small hiccup, and I am about 2,500 rounds into it; it is actually a pretty accurate rifle too, I put a 3x ACOG on mine.
Regardless... thay should have rejected those carriers. If Troy was concerned about quality, they should have never seen the inside of a rifle. There is a Troy at an LGS (or at least it was there last week) so i will go check the staking on that carrier but either way, I don't think it is really going to persuade me to choose Troy over BCM, Colt, DD, LMT, Noveske.
Oh, I agree. They are slipping for sure, just noting they didn't all come so poorly staked. At least in my case.
Have you bothered sending your compliant to Troy? I would and include a link to this forum page and see if they reply. Just curious was the castle nut staked as poorly?
Boba Fett v2
08-06-13, 16:48
To say that it is a piss poor staking job would be an understatement. It shouldn't have made it through the QA/QC process. Troy has a pretty solid reputation in the industry for their outstanding individual accessories and components, so I'm surprised to see this.
F-Trooper05
08-06-13, 17:34
Have you bothered sending your compliant to Troy? I would and include a link to this forum page and see if they reply. Just curious was the castle nut staked as poorly?
The castle nuts were staked okay. Not great, but not so bad that I felt a need to bust out the cell phone camera.
As for contacting Troy, I didn't drop $1,400 on one, so I don't have much need to complain to them. If they want to put their name on a product like this, that's on them.
Anyone remember when these went on sale at dicks for 700$?
Well they are coming back to "Dicks". Except it will be a Dicks spin off operation "Field and Stream".
They will carry the Troy carbine from what I understand.
I wonder if it's all that back stock they screwed people out of :)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/08/04/dicks-open-field-stream-gun-stores-complete-ar-15-rifles/
I can't believe this garbage company...they ride in on there high horse pulling all black rifles from the showrooms because of the tragedy in Dec......now will open up spinoff to sell said rifles...unreal
Well they are coming back to "Dicks". Except it will be a Dicks spin off operation "Field and Stream".
They will carry the Troy carbine from what I understand.
I wonder if it's all that back stock they screwed people out of :)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/08/04/dicks-open-field-stream-gun-stores-complete-ar-15-rifles/
I just chose a DD rail over a troy too.
That's a shame. They have a good reputation, as far as I know, but poor staking is such ridiculous procedure to screw up on now a days. I'd think most companies, especially a company such as Troy whose held with some regard, would learned by now that this is no longer over looked or accepted.
.46caliber
08-06-13, 22:47
I get better staking when I pinch one off.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
I get better staking when I pinch one off.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
HA!!!
Knyghtmare
08-06-13, 23:38
Yeah, no thanks. It looks like they had the right idea, just not enough force to move material properly. I do feel bad for the Troy fanboys though. That's like a kick to the nuts.
What a joke!!! They Troy does look to be a pretty quality rifle, but I'd buy a BCM BCG and throw that thing in the trash
F-Trooper05
08-18-13, 02:53
Finally got some more pics. Here are four separate Troy rifles from two separate shipments sent one week apart. I tried to get good shots of both the BCG staking and castle nut staking on a total of four separate guns.
Keep in mind, these are $1,500 guns...
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-1_zpsbba3d0b7.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-1_zpsbba3d0b7.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-2_zpsaa41f443.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-2_zpsaa41f443.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-3_zps70a5f975.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-3_zps70a5f975.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-5_zps3a434473.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-5_zps3a434473.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-6_zps05672063.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-6_zps05672063.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-7_zps2ba0d23c.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-7_zps2ba0d23c.jpg.html)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/troy8-17-8_zps2ce9e342.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/millert12005/media/troy8-17-8_zps2ce9e342.jpg.html)
Those BCGs looks worst than S&W...totally not worth the money
Stick to accessory making or dumb whoever is making your rifles and get the quality up...
Ok guys I agree the staking on the BCGs looks bad. Needs to be fixed if it hasn't already. The Castle nuts look ok to me though. What I don't get are the comments telling them to "stick to selling accessories"
Here we have a company with an overall good reputation of making quality products and you are condemning them over 4 photos of badly staked BCGs. How do they stack up otherwise should be the question. If there are a number of issues and they are refusing to fix them then I will agree with you 100% that they need to go back to the drawing board.
Also they posted a while back on FB that they are not selling rifled to Dicks anymore and will not sell to them in the future. Any rifles that they have for sale are pre December 2012 inventory.
I was one of the fortunate guys that got a Troy rifle on the Black Friday sale. For the money it was a smokin deal. I made sure mine came with a full auto bolt carrier. It was staked pretty much like the op's photo. That in itself was not that big a deal to me; easily remedied. I was more bothered that Troy would arbitrarily throw M-16 or semi bolt carriers in their rifles depending on what they had handy. Then after all the well deserved hoopla after Dicks yanked all their black rifles and refused to honor their backorders, the fact that Troy is again willing to use Dicks as their distributer really torques me off.
scoutfsu99
08-18-13, 10:07
What a joke!!! They Troy does look to be a pretty quality rifle, but I'd buy a BCM BCG and throw that thing in the trash
:rolleyes: I'd stake it and shoot it.
First those examples are not the only ones being reported.
Second, if someone spends over $1200 on a rifle, he or she should not be worried about having a downed rifle due improper QA on the manufacturer end, especially on staking properly. Sure it's an easy fix but its a fix I would expect from a low priced rifle
Wormydog1724
08-18-13, 10:58
What a joke!!! They Troy does look to be a pretty quality rifle, but I'd buy a BCM BCG and throw that thing in the trash
Don't EVER throw a BCG in the trash!!!!!!!!
Send it to me instead!!!!! :p
It needs staking, simple as that. The pics of the RE show that they have the ability to do it... not sure if this is a QC/QA decision, a conscious cost saving decision, or an outright oversight. I agree it's dumb in a $1500 rifle, but anybody who is informed and looking at these side by side with a BCM or DD factory rifle will have already made their mind up long before this is an issue.
Those BCGs looks worst than S&W...totally not worth the money
I have several S&W full auto carriers that are GTG.;)
S&W is GTG. I ran one for a long time
The resolution of all of the pictures doesn't allow proper critic of the stake job IMO. As long as the metal is forced into the serrations of the cap screw it should be fine. Why do you need more than what it takes to keep the cap screw from backing out? What forces are trying to unscrew the screw? Why should metal be displaced more than necessary to stop the screw from backing out? I am sure this will piss off some here but I'll chalk up this thread as a Troy/ Dick's witch hunt. GH
thopkins22
08-18-13, 17:33
This is a great example of what happens when someone thinks that one punch of a spring loaded center punch will do the job. Someone on the line was told to hit the BCG with it on either side of the screws...and believes they did their job correctly.
It's also evidence of the downside of having a bunch of customers who saw the chart, but never did the research to understand why certain things mattered...they now know enough to know that a BCG should be staked, and will pull out the bolt carrier to see that some metal was moved and say "yep, it's staked and looks like an M16 carrier."
Many parts of commercial grade weapons are getting the chart window dressing...even in it's absence. Barrels and bolts are being MPI'd without being HP tested first, or have all the right testing without being shot peened which is probably more important anyway. Or often they're stamped 1/7 when they're not...or stamped 5.56 when they're not. I'm just surprised that there isn't an epidemic of F marked front sight bases that are too short requiring the old Bushmaster tall front sight.
thopkins22
08-18-13, 17:36
The resolution of all of the pictures doesn't allow proper critic of the stake job IMO. As long as the metal is forced into the serrations of the cap screw it should be fine. Why do you need more than what it takes to keep the cap screw from backing out? What forces are trying to unscrew the screw? Why should metal be displaced more than necessary to stop the screw from backing out? I am sure this will piss off some here but I'll chalk up this thread as a Troy/ Dick's witch hunt. GH
With respect, perhaps my screen has higher resolution than yours, but it's obvious that no metal is touching the knurling...in fact no metal is displaced into that area at all. You're right that proper staking doesn't require a MOACKS and that people get carried away...but I'm confident that's not what is being pictured.
The screws can loosen over time (and will if not done correctly) when shooting. The carrier moves back and forth in the upper and impacts a steel barrel extension. They will loosen, that's a fact. Although the staking "appears" to be good many times they are not.
Ask anyone who has been to my class and watch me break loose and remove the carrier key screws with no little effort. If the screws can loosen that's all it needs to break the seal between the key and the carrier body.
The resolution of all of the pictures doesn't allow proper critic of the stake job IMO. As long as the metal is forced into the serrations of the cap screw it should be fine. Why do you need more than what it takes to keep the cap screw from backing out? What forces are trying to unscrew the screw? Why should metal be displaced more than necessary to stop the screw from backing out? I am sure this will piss off some here but I'll chalk up this thread as a Troy/ Dick's witch hunt. GH
I've had minor quality or finish issues from well regarded manufacturers (LMT, BCM, and Noveske). What did I do? throw them in the trash? Bash them on the internet?
No, I shot them and if anything became a real issue I fixed or replaced the part.
I've read before that Grant will do his own QA/QC inspections and make shop improvements (stake, etc) before sending to customers.
Shot it, fix it, learn, and move on.
The screws can loosen over time (and will if not done correctly) when shooting. The carrier moves back and forth in the upper and impacts a steel barrel extension. They will loosen, that's a fact. Although the staking "appears" to be good many times they are not.
Ask anyone who has been to my class and watch me break loose and remove the carrier key screws with no little effort. If the screws can loosen that's all it needs to break the seal between the key and the carrier body.
IG, you are probably the last person here I want to argue with. I just don't understand why the stake needs to do more than offer a slight resistance to keep the cap screw from rotating. I understand the forces involved but none of them are trying to rotate the cap screw. No matter how light the interference is between the carrier and key bolt is it serves the same purpose. It just prevents the bolt from turning. Using a wrench to back out the cap screw easily really means nothing. We could shoot a million rounds through a rifle and never apply any rotational force to the screws. If the stake in the OP's pictures doesn't contact the screws it is a problem. If is does no matter how lightly I don't see the liability. GH
F-Trooper05
08-18-13, 19:25
I've had minor quality or finish issues from well regarded manufacturers (LMT, BCM, and Noveske). What did I do? throw them in the trash? Bash them on the internet?
No, I shot them and if anything became a real issue I fixed or replaced the part.
I've read before that Grant will do his own QA/QC inspections and make shop improvements (stake, etc) before sending to customers.
Shot it, fix it, learn, and move on.
If it was one carrier I'd say its an over-reaction to a simple QC slip. But it's not just one carrier, it's every one of them I've seen so far.
This is incorrect. We had a Noveske BCG in my San Diego class just about 1 month ago. It appeared to be staked and was making some contact but not enough. YMMV.
If have seen stakings that "appeared" to be correct and touching the screw yet it fact they would not prevent the movement.
IG, you are probably the last person here I want to argue with. I just don't understand why the stake needs to do more than offer a slight resistance to keep the cap screw from rotating. I understand the forces involved but none of them are trying to rotate the cap screw. No matter how light the interference is between the carrier and key bolt is it serves the same purpose. It just prevents the bolt from turning. Using a wrench to back out the cap screw easily really means nothing. We could shoot a million rounds through a rifle and never apply any rotational force to the screws. If the stake in the OP's pictures doesn't contact the screws it is a problem. If is does no matter how lightly I don't see the liability. GH
bluejackets92fs
08-18-13, 20:25
Troy should stick to accessories. I've seen DPMS with better staking jobs.
Troy should stick to accessories. I've seen DPMS with better staking jobs.
Perhaps Troy just stick to sourcing their BCG's from more reputable sources; I suspect they aren't actually "making" much of these rifles.
Those BCGs looks worst than S&W...totally not worth the money
Stick to accessory making or dumb whoever is making your rifles and get the quality up...
My SW had one problem that was dealt with amazingly by the company with no questions asked. It is well documented on this forum if you care to search.
But I am happy to also report that my SW has proper staking on the BCG and Castle Nut.
So back on topic:
I've noticed as the market is opening up that there are a bunch of new manufacturers and a lot of quality control issues slipping through the cracks on not only AR's but also other rifles. Millions of dollars have been made in the industry in the last 8 months, and companies see millions more to be made if they can just get their supply up enough to reach demand.
Three months ago I couldn't find a RCBS .223 die to save my life anywhere. I had one before the scare, but I couldn't help but look while I searched for a 9mm. In the last three weeks I've seen shelves filled with .223 dies and only the odd caliber here or there that survived the scare. I have wondered before this thread if the quality of products from known brands would go down right when stock levels started to go up, and I figured they would. Anyone who has worked in a high stress production environment knows that shit slips through the cracks from time to time.
With the Troy rifles, I held one at a Dicks about a year ago, and I was smacking myself for not buying it in the several months. I honestly thought the rifle's were gone. Dick's dropped them so quickly I figured we wouldn't see Troy anything for years as I assumed that their investment in the rifles probably broke the company after the scare. With that said, they had to make up a major loss of projected profits so when I heard the rifles were trickling back onto the market I wasn't surprised. I am however surprised to see that they are of lesser quality. It seems maybe there loss was so big they had to cut corners?
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