View Full Version : Dangerous Relatives
I'm not sure where to put this, so Mods feel free to move it to a more appropriate area. Hell, delete if it's a waste of time...
In a nutshell, I'm looking for some info, data, or other resources that describe how a volatile person can work herself into a true danger to herself and others, including family members. I'd like to find objective information describing the warning signs, behaviors, etc that could predict violent behavior.
My sister-in-law has always been difficult throughout the 25 years that I've been with my wife, the SIL's younger sister. The SIL, however, has gone from somewhat bitchy at times to crazy as a ****ing shithouse rat. She regularly drinks herself into a blathering stupor and has various antidepressants at her disposal. I'll admit that she's had a few challenges over the past several years, but her reactions have all been bad and she's began to direct her resentment towards my wife. SIL has told my wife that she's going to come over and get things straight, etc on more than one occasion. I know that SIL has had a revolver in the past but don't know if she still has it.
My wife's family are ostriches...they stick their collective heads in the sand and ignore it all in hopes it simply goes away. I've sat my wife down and lined out all of the reasons I think her sister is becoming increasingly dangerous to both herself and others, but my wife kind of blows it off. My concern is that SIL actually shows up at our front door one night and consequently forces me to defend myself or my wife with deadly force...talk about taking a shit on Christmas get-togethers.
Again, what I'm looking for is some outside, objective material that outlines how behavior becomes increasingly disruptive, threatening, etc and how it can lead to a total melt-down and violence. It's one thing for SIL to kill herself, but I don't want her to take a family member with her or put me in a position of having to use force.
Thanks for reading and for any suggestions y'all may have to offer.
I my experience there isn't much you can do, especially if everyone is ignoring the problem.
A couple of ideas off of the top of my head:
Having a "quick record audio" app for your phone, perhaps even quick record video app.
Install camera system.
Install motion activated lights on the entire perimeter, at least you know someone is standing in the bushes and or is approaching the house.
Get a central station alarm system including a panic button.
When she does show up, if possible, try and NEVER be alone with her. One-on-one is where the danger is even if you think you are prepared.
Of course by your own admission you are limited, so God speed.
Otherwise do a google search "dealing with dangerous people" and read, read, read.
As a man you are probably like me and try to fix everything in the world that goes wrong for your wife and always prepare for the unexpected. Unfortunately you may be powerless.
Guns-up.50
08-07-13, 15:05
intervention?
police are pretty good at dealing with drunk angry people. Let them know of the verbal threats and if she shows up keep em on speed dial..
Don't want to deal with her let the cops.
as far as being crazy that's a tough one never know when ones gonna snap, be ready at all times like you normally should, leave the wife and kids out no need to scare them. IF she loses it, it should be treated the same as a stranger breaking in trying to kill you, at least you'll be at Christmas to be hated.....
I wish I could give you a list of reference materials, but I don't have one. It sounds like your wife and her family are enablers in a co-dependent relationship. You however have the option to trust your instincts. Ban her from your home. Call the police is she shows up there. Refuse to attend any family functions where she will be present if she doesn't get treatment for her problems. Be forceful and adamant on the terms and conditions you set. Carry, always.
In the end, it may not win you any fans in your wife's family. Only you can decide if it's worth it. I don't envy you and wish you the best of luck.
Document, Document, Document! Get a restraining order! All of the other ideas a good, but if (God forbid) she were to attack you or your family, you need documentation. Laws for involuntary commitment vary from state to state, but you would need the whole family in agreement.
Hang in there!
Chip
I really appreciate the responses and advice. I'll use the old Google-fu some more and see what I can come up with. I've read a few things out there on the subject, but I'd trust recommendations from folks here more than I would some random web site I drift into.
Y'all are great to help.
Threat assessment is complex and there are no definitive answers for the internet. That being said, the following should get you started.
Document... Writing, audio, video. Don't provoke the conduct to gather the support.
Consider a court order. Get the one the criminalizes prohibited conduct, not the one that holds you in contempt for violation. The former will generally be an "order of protection" or something like that, the latter likely a "restraining order." A restraining order generally isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Police are generally not empowered to enforce them, only refer you back to the court. Your local mileage may vary, but not by much.
Consider involuntary commitment to your mental health or drug/alcohol facility.
Exercise standard crime prevention and personal protection options. Don't be alone with the SIL. Don't meet with her on her turf.
Determine if your SIL is cyclical, or it's a linear escalation. If the former, you can identify periods of greatest risk and triggers. If the latter, risk increases as you go.
Remember that family solidarity and relationships will generally be favored over formal action. Anticipate more compassion than action and protect yourself and your own accordingly. Remember that you are the odd man out here.
Follow through here is essential. If you don't follow through, you are on your own.
How old are the players in this?
montanadave
08-07-13, 17:24
Good suggestions so far, particularly the comments regarding documentation of all contact with your SIL.
I'm unclear whether you have had a direct conversation with your SIL about your concerns. If your wife and her family members are unwilling or unable to confront your SIL about her behavior, it may fall to you to "bell the cat."
Pick an appropriate time and a public place to meet with her, tell her your concerns, and tell her what limits you are putting with respect to her interaction with you and your wife. It's probably best to treat it just like an intervention, meaning write down what you want to say in a clear and organized fashion and read it to her. Then give her a copy.
If you think she is too volatile to meet with, mail her a letter saying what you need to say. And a word of caution here. Have several people you trust read the letter first and offer some constructive criticism.
And plus one on outlining specific consequences. Let your SIL know, in no uncertain terms, that if she calls when drunk or high, it's a hang up. And if she shows up in that condition, she'll be talking to the law, not you or your wife. A number of years back, my FIL called up drunk and threatened suicide. I sent the sheriff to his house and he ended up on a 72-hour psychiatric hold. He was not a happy camper. And he never pulled that shit again.
Getting pulled into another family's rat's nest is never fun. Been there. Done that. I've had to set some very clear boundaries with my wife's family and it required direct and, at times, very uncomfortable conversations. Plural. But for the sake of our marriage and our respective mental health, it had to be done.
Threat assessment is complex and there are no definitive answers for the internet. That being said, the following should get you started.
Document... Writing, audio, video. Don't provoke the conduct to gather the support.
Consider a court order. Get the one the criminalizes prohibited conduct, not the one that holds you in contempt for violation. The former will generally be an "order of protection" or something like that, the latter likely a "restraining order." A restraining order generally isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Police are generally not empowered to enforce them, only refer you back to the court. Your local mileage may vary, but not by much.
Consider involuntary commitment to your mental health or drug/alcohol facility.
Exercise standard crime prevention and personal protection options. Don't be alone with the SIL. Don't meet with her on her turf.
Determine if your SIL is cyclical, or it's a linear escalation. If the former, you can identify periods of greatest risk and triggers. If the latter, risk increases as you go.
Remember that family solidarity and relationships will generally be favored over formal action. Anticipate more compassion than action and protect yourself and your own accordingly. Remember that you are the odd man out here.
Follow through here is essential. If you don't follow through, you are on your own.
How old are the players in this?
I've brought up the subject of involuntary commitment with little success. However, it's now on the table from the substance abuse angle as opposed to the mental health angle. I doubt the two are inseparable in this case, but it's good to find something of an inroad for further discussion.
SIL has always had cyclical bouts of manic depression since I've known her...really good or really bad with little or nothing in between. However, I have been able to demonstrate to my wife a linear progression of her sister's getting worse and more extreme without the rounds of mania.
I started keeping brief notes about eighteen months ago when their mother died unexpectedly. However, I don't believe that was the trigger since this downward spiral started long before that.
I'm 50, my wife is 54, and SIL is 55. Too old for this crap...I exercise extreme caution around her and watch myself closely not to get pulled into her games. She's one of the most manipulative people I've ever met.
I'll formalize the documentation process, get the required info related to involuntary committals and court orders that criminalize prohibited behavior, and continue to watch my ass.
Again, thanks very much.
At that age it might be prudent to look at early on set Dementia as a cause. It could also be the first signs of Alzheimers. Folks in the early stages of both of those diseases are often confused, angry and irritable.
I have relatives that suffered from them both. In both cases the suffered violent episodes.
Chip
At that age it might be prudent to look at early on set Dementia as a cause. It could also be the first signs of Alzheimers. Folks in the early stages of both of those diseases are often confused, angry and irritable.
I have relatives that suffered from them both. In both cases the suffered violent episodes.
Chip
I recognize what you are saying here but it seems to me that a consistent attitude throughout a person's lifetime indicates to me that the person is choosing the behavior, they are not a victim of some yet-discovered condition.
It is shocking to me that a person can reach age 55 without a proper level of emotional maturity.
You might also want to look into talking to a good counselor, one you trust, to have someone with whom you can discuss this problem who is detached from the situation. A good counselor will also be able to advise you of outside resources for help. I also agree with those who advise setting clear boundaries and maintaining them. I suggest you break your boundaries into what I call "green" "yellow" and "red" zones, not just "safe" and "DANGER!"
I wish you the best of luck. You have a very hard road before you
I don't post frequently on this forum, but this one struck me. My wife and I are 5 years into a situation like what you are describing. I'll echo the advice above to document carefully with times, places and people. Review the documentation so you can see what direction it takes over time. If there are any kids involved, keep them away from your SIL the best you can.
Identify safe people in your family and circle of friends, talk to them but don't try to get them to choose sides - ask them for their help instead to care for your SIL.
And the most valuable thing so far (5 years in) has been a good counselor - we started only 2 years ago with them.
Well, All things mentioned can't hurt, BUT I think you already know the answer. Trust your gut, if you think someone is a danger, they probably are. A lot of what you read, and so called counslers, rehab, probation, AA, NA counclers.... always think they they can help and save the world. Sometimes they can and in my opinion most times they can not, but it is either their liberal point of view or job description to continue to try and minimze the true danger.
There may be warning signs, green, yellow, red but if we could really predict it there would be a lot less good people hurt.
Personaly I would consider her a RED ZONE and do eveything possible to protect my family.
Hell, our prison systems are a revolving door for criminals. If a person is intent on doing evil, there is really nothing anyone can do to stop them. It has nothing to do with what everyone else wants for them or logic. I really don't care why the animal is going to attack me, rabies, crazy or just plain mean.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but if you can't prevent it, make sure you can cure it.
Also be aware restraining orders and invountary commitals may prove to make her angry at the person that initiates them and blame them.
Been there, Done That, there really is no good ending. The bottom line is you gotta do what you gotta do!
Best of Luck, and saftey for your family.
Again, thank you all for the comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. I seriouosly doubt a professional counselor would give me the honest, real world info I've received here.
My gut reaction to all of this is what lead to my original post. I asked myself if this situation had the potential for being bad or was I over analyzing a situation. I feel better understanding that I'm not completely out of line. My wife has been a little more receptive the past few days as we've discussed the issues with her sister. One of the most convincing arguments I had was the progression of unacceptable behavior, etc by SIL that I was able to outline for my wife. That really opened up my wife's eyes to the whole thing.
Luckily, we have little contact with SIL. I've still got to talk to our grown sons about the situation since they're not plugged into it other than to know that their aunt has a demonstrated capacity to get a little crazy.
You folks stay in my prayers.
Check out the book The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker. Lots of good info on recognizing behavioral patterns and changes that could indicate imminent violent behavior.
Check out the book The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker. Lots of good info on recognizing behavioral patterns and changes that could indicate imminent violent behavior.
Seems to me that book applies in general to the topic, of particular note is Chapter 10, "Intimate Enemies - Domestic Violence".
El Vaquero
08-13-13, 00:25
Repeating what the others have said...document (dates, things she says) and carry a small digital recorder.
In Texas, a restraining order is only worth the paper it's printed on, and unless there is a prior history of violence you probably would not be able to get a protective order (the order that has teeth).
In order to get her involuntarily committed you would have to show she is an IMMINENT danger to herself and others. This can be through, but not limited to; living conditions, past/present actions, statements, etc.
There are some behaviors that can predict violent behavior, but those usually manifest themselves in childhood and are already violent in nature (think animal mutilation, incest etc).
Does she have children? If yes, have you called CPS?
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