Needing A Deep Concealment Gun...Quick [Archive]

Father of 3

08-12-13, 22:21

Without going into a lot of details, I need a good pistol for deep concealment. If I print, I'll definitely lose my job and likely go to jail depending on circumstances. However, with the new job in a larger metropolitan area where crime is much more prevalent as well as possibly having to re-staff most of the office, I feel the need for a deep concealment gun.

I've had a G27 as well as a Shield in the past and ended up selling both. Now I find myself regretting selling them. However, while commonly used for CCW, neither seemed to really fit the bill for me. The Shield was too big for pocket carry and the G27 was not really any easier to carry than a G23.

Now I'm looking for a VERY concealable weapon. Pocket or ankle carry with be my method as I will be sitting for long periods or bending/reaching a lot and I feel that IWB or AIWB may lead print. I'm wanting to stay under $450 for this one as the wife is already complaining about my "need" for another gun ;)

Suggestions? My initial considerations are:

S&W Bodyguard
Kahr CM9
Kahr CW9
Ruger LCP
Possibly another Shield

I'd like to stay with at least 9mm, but the need for deep concealment really has me considering those smaller 380's.

I'd like to make a decision by this weekend. And none of my LGS's have these smaller guns to try out. Everything is larger/double stacks that are not an option at this point.

dhrith

08-12-13, 22:28

So,
....you'll "likely" be going to jail.

Which means..... you'll "likely" be breaking the law.

..and you wanted us to help you with that?.........:confused:
<boggle>

Hmac

08-12-13, 22:30

Walther PPS is a single stack, 9mm or .40 cal, in that same general category and is worth considering.

RagweedZulu

08-12-13, 22:30

Personally I'd probably look into the Shield again or the XDs45. My new XDs has run 100% reliable and its so small and light that it has made my G27 pretty much obsolete for deep concealment/hot weather carry.

I'm not sure about your pocket sizes, but with the short magazine in place it could serve you well. I have also carried a S&W 642 J-frame in the pocket with a speed loader on my off side and had great results. Resist the temptation to go with the little .380s. They hide well but I'd hate to be in a situation and it be my only form of protection. Good luck, stay safe.

ST911

08-12-13, 22:45

I don't want to give you a standard "search" answer, but if you hit the various model names and associated search terms you'll find hours of reading. Check out threads which discuss carry in formal wear, hospital scrubs, and ankle and pocket carry specifically for some other ideas.

Deep concealment is much more about the method than the gun. You'd be surprised what you can hide with quality gear, attention to detail, and acclimation.

My minimums are subcompact 9mms (G26, recently a Shield) and J-frames. There is no need to go smaller in footprint or caliber if you approach the problem deliberately.

Kchen986

08-12-13, 22:48

I'm an attorney on the civilian side and conceal carried a Kahr PM9 for about a year in a law office that was definitely not gun-friendly.

I also pocket carry the shield, but it's a little larger, and I was once made at a gun store (grip poked out). It's also harder to draw from the pocket, due to it's height, but it's a more capable gun than the PM9.

No experience with the other weapons listed. Definitely recommend against the PPS. I have one, and it's not pocket-sized.

Finally, make sure you comply with all applicable laws in your jurisdiction.

jlunn

08-12-13, 22:54

I carry a Kahr cw9 in a thunder wear holster. As long as your pants are loose enough to get to your junk your good to go :D

sxshep

08-13-13, 01:11

Regardless of your intentions, or whether you'd be breaking laws... Any time someone has ever told me "I need a gun, quickly", there's usually a more rational and "legal" way of handling what's troubling them. Such as quitting their job that takes them dangerous places, or leaving their abusive shitty ex-boyfriends instead of procreating another child with them.

Anyhow, my advice would be to word your question a bit more carefully next time, and spare us the motives. Oh, and a J-Frame revolver.

sjc3081

08-13-13, 01:24

So,
....you'll "likely" be going to jail.

Which means..... you'll "likely" be breaking the law.

..and you wanted us to help you with that?.........:confused:
<boggle>

He asked a general question and you acting like a sheeple didn't help.
I would really suggest a J frame.

Hornbuckle

08-13-13, 02:56

I have a CW9 that I love but I gave to my dad. (I refuse to carry anything smaller than my Glock 19.) A friend has a CM9 that is extremely compact. We compared it to my S&W 642 and it was in the ballpark of the same dimensions height and length. Obviously it was thinner. If I wasn't a 19 snob, I'd give serious thought to the CM9.

PatrioticDisorder

08-13-13, 04:19

First off, don't be crazy. I had to do without a gun in Kommie NY, didn't like it one bit, but it was/is better than going to jail. Better to comply with the law. :)

Now for a deep concealment gun, my father as a DB9 diamondback. They have a reputation for being hit or miss. I will say with 115 or 124 grain rounds (JHPs included, father carries HSTs) it's doable. There is a major caveat here, DO NOT EVER LOAD THE MAGAZINE WITH MORE THAN 5 rounds. It's listed as a 6+1 gun, but that's bullshit and has caused many people to destroy their magazine springs causing failure to feeds (hence where you see some negatives on the gun).

It's not the most pleasant gun to shoot, but I've found loading 5+1 with light to mid weight standard pressure cartridges, it's reliable and BY FAR THE SMALLEST 9mm available today. Actually I want to buy one for myself and have borrowed it on a few occasions where I needed true deep concealment.

Tzed250

08-13-13, 04:19

The PPS definitely isn't a pocket pistol, but mine conceals well in a hybrid IWB holster. You may need to drop down to a .380 sized gun depending on your clothing.

sjc3081

08-13-13, 04:49

If you really need deep concealment, a Beretta 21-A in 22LR loaded with Aguilla Interceptors may be an option.

Glock30

08-13-13, 04:57

So,
....you'll "likely" be going to jail.

Which means..... you'll "likely" be breaking the law.

..and you wanted us to help you with that?.........:confused:
<boggle>

SLAP!!! http://www.hdforums.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_slap.gif ...just answer the question next time

Father of 3
I suggest the Ruger LCR

Father of 3

08-13-13, 05:40

So,
....you'll "likely" be going to jail.

Which means..... you'll "likely" be breaking the law.

..and you wanted us to help you with that?.........
<boggle>

I work in the medical field and travel to different provider locations, often for extended periods of time to revamp the office however I see necessary, and that includes bringing in or letting go team members. The possible illegal part is where the office has a sign that no handguns are allowed.

Now, as for my inherent "need". The practice was robbed just this last December at gun point. They just took the cash and were on their way and to this day they've not caught the suspect. The near by drive thru restaurant was also robbed at gunpoint within the last 2 years where two police officers were shot and killed... one of those officers' sister is a nurse at the office where I now will be presiding. Now that were in Mr. Roger's neighborhood, imagine having to fire half the staff and what possible repercussions that may warrant.

I didn't ask the question to have help breaking the law. I asked the question so if the next time someone comes in to rob us at gunpoint, possibly the same guy as last time, or some ex-employee out with a vengeance decides to start executing people I can have a chance to come home to my 3 children that afternoon as well as my staff members going home to their families. You see it as breaking the law, I see it as possibly saving lives.

Unfortunately practices owned by hospitals are like pulling teeth with a clothespin when it comes to making change. It will be a cold day in perdition when I, or even others, can convince them otherwise about their firearms policy.

As for everyone else, thanks for the suggestions so far and input. I've considered J frames but have always thought they were thick through the cylinder part. I may have to actually compare them in size to other's I've mentioned.

To further clarify, this will not be my primary CCW all the time as I have other options for that. It will just be something I have on me in the practice(s). My usual CCW will reside in my glove box while I am at work.

Hmac

08-13-13, 06:42

I like the PPS as a small, accurate, reliable handgun that handles 9mm and .40 well. It's not a pocket gun, but IMHO for many or most people we're talking about .380s when we talk about pocket carry. Reliability issues put me off the Kahrs. LCP might be an option, but I'd still be inclined to go with the PPS as the best option for my interpretation of my "deep concealment" needs when I balance reliability, accuracy, form factor, the clothing I wear and body shape.

Nola_Jack

08-13-13, 07:06

MCS

08-13-13, 07:14

Sig p238 makes a nice pocket gun.

danpass

08-13-13, 07:25

I'll have to second the J frame.

Here in south Florida the Smith 642 in front pocket carry is what has worked out most often.

Plumber237

08-13-13, 07:27

Father of 3
I suggest the Ruger LCR

Another vote for the LCR...it disappears in as little as shorts and a t shirts.

Hmac

08-13-13, 07:28

This may be a bit off topic, but do you think it is right for you to violate the property rights of others? I certainly understand the need for self defense, but you are choosing to work there, and I feel as though you should respect the rights of others. Maybe a new job would be a better choice than risking going to jail.

Violate what property rights? The owners aren't giving up any property rights, they can ask him to leave or have him charged with trespassing anytime they want.

Nephrology

08-13-13, 07:31

J frame. I find that it vanishes on the belt. Pocket carry is also an option, though if you insist on pocket carry I'd look into a .380 like the LCP.

Campbell

08-13-13, 07:32

The Diamondback 9mm is very concealable, but gets lost in my hand.... Best of luck in your current situation.

Nola_Jack

08-13-13, 08:08

Violate what property rights? The owners aren't giving up any property rights, they can ask him to leave or have him charged with trespassing anytime they want.

You don't consider a clearly posted sign to be their way of asking him not to enter with a gun?

Double3

08-13-13, 08:23

I like my Kahr PM9.

Never any issues with it. Usually pocket carry it.

HalliganJoel

08-13-13, 08:40

I used to use an LCP in a "wallet" type holster as my non-permissive weapon. I sold it recently, if I had it to do over again I think I would roll with a S&W 442 or 642.

Psalms144.1

08-13-13, 09:02

For ultra concealment, I'd strongly recommend the PM9, and urge you away from any tiny wheel gun. Here are my reasons:

PM9 pros:
-caliber
-capacity
-sights (decent out of the box, easy to swap to NS)
-inherent accuracy
-smooth, light DAO striker fired trigger
-smaller and lighter than any j-frame, LCR, or Shield/PPS - perfectly adequate for pocket carry w/6 round mag, disappears in a "tuckable" holster with either mag

PM9 cons:
-requires break in and stout ammo due to heavy dual recoil spring
-cost, limited NS options, gunsmith required to install NS

J-frame/LCR pros:
-reliability "five for sure"

J-frame/LCR cons:
-capacity and reload times
-trigger (people complain about the HK LEM - but tout the J-frame w/its 10# DA trigger as a great carry gun)
-non-existent sights very difficult/expensive to improve
-recoil

Shield Pros:
-"Glock like" trigger - if that's what you're used to, there's little "retraining" required
-Sight and aftermarket options plentiful

Shield Cons:
-bigger and heaver than the PM9, with no increase in capacity or shootability

WRT carry modes - I'd recommend against pocket carry as primary if you spend any significant amount of time sitting down at your new job. It can be VERY difficult to get to a pocket gun from a seated position discreetly and quickly. As far as ankle carry goes, make sure you get a GOOD ankle holster, and have your pants tailor with a "heavy break." I've seen more people "flash" their ankle rigs unknowingly than any other method of concealed carry, just by their pant legs riding up when they sit down. Likewise, if you like to cross your legs while your sitting, you WILL "flash" your ankle holster, regardless of what you carry.

Best of luck to you.

Regards,

Kevin

RCI1911

08-13-13, 09:08

J-frame. Can ride multiple places well (IWB, ankle, pocket) and is more reliable then micro pistols. I'd prefer .38 special over 38 acp also, but that is a more personal thing.

ST911

08-13-13, 09:23

All- When replying to this thread, it would be helpful if you would include the "whys" and "hows" rather than just your preference or recommendation. Everyone knows there are small guns out there that would probably work. Discussing why they work for you and how you're using them in the deep concealment role adds considerable value to the thread.

Hmac

08-13-13, 09:39

You don't consider a clearly posted sign to be their way of asking him not to enter with a gun?

Sure, but I may choose not to comply with such a request for the sake of my own personal safety and my right to self-protection. If they find me carrying a gun against their wishes, they can ask me to leave and I'll go quietly. There's less at stake for me since such signs here don't carry the force of law. If the OP is violating the law by doing so, he'll have to figure that into his decision as to whether or not to carry anyway. Sounds like he already has.

JW5219

08-13-13, 10:35

. The possible illegal part is where the office has a sign that no handguns are allowed.

Just because they have a sign up doesn't make it illegal. It may be a violation of their policy, but not against the law. Companies don't make laws.

donlapalma

08-13-13, 10:46

For ultra concealment, I'd strongly recommend the PM9, and urge you away from any tiny wheel gun. Here are my reasons:

PM9 pros:
-caliber
-capacity
-sights (decent out of the box, easy to swap to NS)
-inherent accuracy
-smooth, light DAO striker fired trigger
-smaller and lighter than any j-frame, LCR, or Shield/PPS - perfectly adequate for pocket carry w/6 round mag, disappears in a "tuckable" holster with either mag

PM9 cons:
-requires break in and stout ammo due to heavy dual recoil spring
-cost, limited NS options, gunsmith required to install NS

J-frame/LCR pros:
-reliability "five for sure"

J-frame/LCR cons:
-capacity and reload times
-trigger (people complain about the HK LEM - but tout the J-frame w/its 10# DA trigger as a great carry gun)
-non-existent sights very difficult/expensive to improve
-recoil

These pros and cons are on point. I have owned and carried both. Sold the PM9 because I needed the cash, but I miss having it. It was a little bulky for me and my body/clothing when carrying in the pocket, but I've learned that carrying concealed is a lot more about dressing around the gun than most folks realize AND finding a proper quality holster. The J-Frame fills my deep concealment needs now which means AIWB or in the pocket. I've addressed the trigger issue with a kit from Apex Tactical and couldn't be happier.

WickedWillis

08-13-13, 11:09

It's nearly identical to the Shield as far as dimensions go.

Walther PPS is a single stack, 9mm or .40 cal, in that same general category and is worth considering.

Nola_Jack

08-13-13, 11:24

Sure, but I may choose not to comply with such a request for the sake of my own personal safety and my right to self-protection. If they find me carrying a gun against their wishes, they can ask me to leave and I'll go quietly. There's less at stake for me since such signs here don't carry the force of law. If the OP is violating the law by doing so, he'll have to figure that into his decision as to whether or not to carry anyway. Sounds like he already has.

And doing so directly violates their property rights. I guess we just have a different view of things. It appears as though you are pro 2nd ammendment rights, I find I am for ALL rights. I understand concealed means concealed, however I vote with my dollars. When the local theatre put up signs, I elected to wait until what I want shows up on redbox. I value the rights of others just as I value my own.

I can certainly understand your stance, I just disagree with it.

1_click_off

08-13-13, 11:29

I have carried:

Ruger LCP with the keltec pocket clip attached to it.

Pros:
super small.
Run clip behind belt and just on pants it disappears.
Light weight
No printing especially with the CR laser attached
Fairly easy to get to.

Cons:
380
It is point and shoot. Sights suck and can't be changed. Paint front for sure.
If you sweat a lot it will flash rust if you don't keep it lubed.
If you stretch extended there is a chance to see it. (Or if you are skinny and don't have at least a little "mass" over your waste line)

PM9
Same as above post. Pocket carry this.

PM45
Crossbreed holster.
Pros: same as above +45acp
Cons: need j-clips to deep conceal or the Velcro clips. The standard over the belt clips draw too much attention especially since they started putting the crosses in them.

G27:
Ankle carry
Pros: Glock
Cons: Heaviest of all. But a good quality holster is key here.

Edit: I carried a Taurus ported Air weight 38spc once. Like once. Sat in safe for next 9 years before I sold it. Just not a revolver guy unless it is full sized.

davebee456

08-13-13, 11:53

Kahr Cm9 and a 150 rounds of 9mm...
if it gets through the 150 rounds without a hang up that's your gun!
its what I did

The LCP is great too but it is 380----
the shield has the worst safety ever----

Jmacken37

08-13-13, 14:32

I've carried a PM9 for years strong side front pocket. Great gun. CM9 would be my choice were I to need to replace the PM9. I've finger fondled shields and have heard good reports on these as well. Pocket carry has allowed me to carry every day.

Remember that the gun you'll actually carry is better than any gun you don't.

John Hearne

08-13-13, 18:48

I have found that the ideal height for pocket carry is 4". Anything bigger and you have to get picky about your clothing and pocket design. The PPS and Shield are 4.25 and 4.5" in height. I really like the non-DAO triggers of those two but they just don't work for me. The micro Kahrs with a six round magazine do meet the 4" optimum. A Kahr PM-9 is a good option but I prefer the lesser complexity and extra barrel/slide of the P9 Covert. I've never had any problems hiding the extra bit of barrel.

Ed L.

08-13-13, 20:04

I've had good luck with the PM-9. It had a failure to feed once in the first 20 rounds then worked reliably with hardball and HPs ever since.

The instructions say it needs a 200 round break in period.

I actually prefer the Smith J frame for pocket carry because the shape of the grip makes it easier to grab and the back of the frame is rounded to minimize chances of it snagging on your pocket if it is drawn from an awkward position.

However, when it comes to pocket carry in an NPE, the Kahr PM-9 is flatter and smaller and does not print. Depending on your pants, you may need to have the pocket deepened by a tailor, since some pants pockets would be fill if they held anything bigger than a small cell phone.

It's different carrying in a non-permissive environment such as work because you see the same people every day and they are more likely to notice something because they see you so often. Not to mention brushing against those people in places like tight hallways and the copy room. In this capacity a gun like the Kahr PM-9 excels.

aaron_c

08-13-13, 20:57

Big vote for the CM9 from me. I freaking love that thing, and shoot it as well as my Glock 19 out to at least 15-20 meters.

SteveS

08-13-13, 21:06

I carry a Kahr cw9 in a thunder wear holster. As long as your pants are loose enough to get to your junk your good to go :DIs that a gun in your pocket or do you like me!!!

Averageman

08-14-13, 06:10

P64.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-64_(pistol)
I have one of these, very similar to a Walther. Fires 9X18.
Hornady makes this, http://www.hornady.com/store/9X18-Mak/
Nice little combo and the weapon carries better than anything else I have found. Slim, small and holds 7 rounds and it's better than .380.
OTD for under $225.00.
Built like a tank.

skydivr

08-14-13, 09:44

I've got a Bodyguard .380 that fits easily in my pocket. You can whine all you want about the .380 not being powerful enough, but the truth is, the best gun there is, is the one you have with you when you need it. I'm not a big guy, and I have yet to find a 9mm that I can easily carry deep conceal without issue. I like the BG because it's got a LONG double-action trigger (takes a little getting used to, but at 10ft or less engagements it's not going to matter much) so I'm not likely to shoot myself getting it out of my pocket. It's not the ideal deep/pocket carry, but it's still better than nothing. My 2-cents.

CCK

08-14-13, 10:01

This may be a bit off topic, but do you think it is right for you to violate the property rights of others? I certainly understand the need for self defense, but you are choosing to work there, and I feel as though you should respect the rights of others. Maybe a new job would be a better choice than risking going to jail.

**** that.

I'll take standing with the ability to stand trial vs. 6 feet under any day. But if you're one of those "its the LAW!!!1!!!" types you won't understand.

WillBrink

08-14-13, 10:01

pinzgauer

08-14-13, 12:16

Kahr

---sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics

skydivr

08-14-13, 12:33

I'm assuming this has been said in this thread some place, but I'd go with a S&W snub nose revolver with appropriate ammo for it before any .380. The terminal ballistics are not optimal to be sure, but better than any .380 per docs postings and advice on DC/BUGs.

True and I would agree. I guess the point I was making is that, whatever he chooses, having something that he will carry every day is preferrable over having something better that he won't carry every day.

Kilroy

08-14-13, 13:18

While working a special duty assignment in the US military I had occasion to develop a deep concealment technique. My organization at the time was still using the 1911A1 although the M9 was due to replace it.

I took my issue 1911A1 and removed the grip panels and estucheons leaving the grip portion of the frame bare. A pair of shorts had some belt loops added. I took a simple IWB leather holster and a Safariland velcro belt (no buckle) threaded through the belt loops on the shorts. The pistol and IWB holster were placed between hip and kidney, so as to let my anatomy press out on the slide and tilting the butt of the pistol closer to my body.

Worn underneath the PT uniform it was undetectable in most every situation. It disappeared in BDUs or Class B uniform. Drawing it depended on the clothing. Regular cleaning/rust removal was required.

My duty assignment required no visible firearms and the ability to mix in a variety of crowds. In this day and age you should not need to go through this much effort.

Walleye

08-14-13, 13:45

Smith J frame is my first vote. I have a 638 and a 642; I prefer the 642 since it's slightly smaller, though the 638 can be cocked. In a pocket it looks like a cell phone or a wallet, not exactly disappearing but close enough for most cases. I also have a lot more faith in .38 than I do .380 or 9x18. Practice is essential to get good hits with the double action pull. The 638 can be more accurate than the 642 due to the slightly longer barrel and single action pull.

Second vote for the surplus P64, its about the same size as the 638 but thinner - works with the same pocket holster in fact. But holy bleep the double action trigger is atrocious! Supposedly it can be improved but I'm not fond of making changes like that to carry guns. Single action is incredibly light. Has a much flatter profile than the J frames do. 6+1 of 9x18 Mak; don't consider it the best ever but beats harsh language and busted furniture. Despite the blueing, seems to be highly wear resistant. Sights suck. Heel mag release kind of a pain but less likely to accidentally drop the mag. All steel so you can use it as a bludgeon when out of ammo - naturally going to affect how it carries in a pocket.

I haven't been too impressed with belt carry options for the smaller pistols, always seems to be too much for what you get. Might be worth it to experiment with ways to dress around a firearm you already have rather than getting a new one.

platoonDaddy

08-14-13, 13:51

Talon Wallet Holster with a KelTec or Ruger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqQxA9jBaWg

coltm4223

08-14-13, 15:54

Every man has to make his own decisions, every act has consequences (right and wrong) the balance is your responsibility. The important part is not the law but the right thing to do, right is not always legal. I made the decision a long time ago that I would rather take my chances with a good lawyer and a jury of my peers than a goblin. I refuse to leave my safety an issue for others to decide.

That being said my chioce is a S&W 442 loaded with 135gr Speer Gold Dots. Have numerous holsters for that one, ankle, belly band, IWB, and pocket. Carried that one in DC, Chicago and NYC and have not been made yet in 30 years and with God's good graces I won't ever need it but if I do its always there.

Slvr Surfr

08-15-13, 11:09

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. With that said:

I will echo others in that it's more about the how you carry then what you carry. A good quality holster and wise clothing choices will conceal any carry type gun you choose.

The Ruger LCR in .357 Magnum is a fine choice. Pocket carry in a pocket holster or quality IWB holster is very doable. I think the ballistics of that round out of a 2.25" barrel will still be plenty to put a hurting on anyone. See the vid below: 15-16" penetration into ballistic gel out of 3" a gun using Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr.

That gun is well in your price range, and may actually be on the cheaper side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWFbuzX-l8

The down side is obviously ammo capacity. You can easily keep a speed strip of 5 rounds in your off pocket or another J-frame type gun for a "New York Reload".

Another option I have been using is the 9mm S&W Shield. I actually pocket carry it with a pocket holster. I have not had any issues with the pocket carry. It is as large as I would go for pocket carry. This gun would be very well suited for a IWB or AIWB carry. I do use a off-brand version of the vanguard for my shield for appendix carry and it conceals very well.

YMMV.

WillBrink

08-15-13, 13:55

skydivr

08-15-13, 15:03

PatrioticDisorder

08-15-13, 15:45

You must have some big pockets because I can't get my Shield to do that...

Cargo pants/shorts...

Father of 3

08-15-13, 15:50

Thanks for the help so far guys. I've made it out to a rental range that had a Shield and a Kahr. I must say I was less than impressed with either. The Kahr CM9 has much more noticable recoil than the Shield. The Shield is highly regarded by many, but it gave me impression as other M&P's have, of "Meh".

I looked at what the salesman said was a J Frame. Nowhere did this gun say J frame, but is was much larger than what I had envisioned. Grip height was almost as tall as the Shield with extended mag and thickness throuh the cylinder was about like a Glock. It may have not been a J Frame. I'm not sold on his competency as a gun salesman.

This shop did have an XDs 9 and 45 in stock. My first impressions were that I was in love with this gun. Unfortunately, they did not have one to rent at the time. Its the same size as the Shield, has a better trigger and sights IMO and is only $100 more. Thoughts on this particular firearm?

I have still not ruled out the S&W Bodyguard. The Ruger's however are no longer in my consideration.

RagweedZulu

08-16-13, 01:35

I go back to my earlier recommendation of the XDs 45 Father of 3. I have worn this pistol DEEP concealed several times since buying it and it is super thin and light. Add to that the .45 ACP round (or even 9mm now) and you've got a decent fighting pistol that's easy to hide. I usually use AIWB method.

In fact, I recently carried this pistol in a VERY non permissive environment due to my position as armed protection for some very important persons. I made it through strict security (I'm LE so I wasn't too worried about being caught but it was certainly better that no one knew) and carried the XDs and two spare mags around in very light clothing all day. It was a location where it would NOT have been good to be caught with a gun, LE or not.

Find a range and try these little gems out. Mine has been 100% reliable and 110% comforting.

MountainRaven

08-16-13, 20:21

For the question at hand... I've gotten away with an H&K P7 in a Comp-Tac MTAC. Throw a sport coat/suit coat/whatever on over it and it will work even better. Throw a spare mag in the jacket or with a pocket holder into a front pocket, job done, IMHO. So long as your job doesn't require hugging. If it does, wear a Leatherman in the same location as your pistol and most people will dismiss brushing against your weapon as being simply the multitool on your hip.

After Aurora, a roommate did the same thing with a G19 at a workplace where he wasn't allowed a jacket, although he did so with his boss's (but not his employer's) full knowledge and consent. At a workplace where just having a gun in your car in the company parking lot was grounds for termination. (He ended up parking on the street a lot.)

This may be a bit off topic, but do you think it is right for you to violate the property rights of others? I certainly understand the need for self defense, but you are choosing to work there, and I feel as though you should respect the rights of others. Maybe a new job would be a better choice than risking going to jail.

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but I just have to point out:

Your right to control who is on your property is less important than my right to live.

To put it in perspective, if I'm stranded in the middle of the woods, particularly in the middle of winter with feet of snow on the ground, highs below zero and I come across your summer cabin... well, let's just say that you're probably going to need a new door or a new window come the spring thaw.

If someone starts to shoot at me on the street and your car parked on the street is the nearest piece of cover, it's probably going to get a little bit holey.

That's not to say that it would necessarily be my first choice, but if the choice is between my life and your door or your car... I'm gonna f___in' live. And I expect the same of anybody and everybody else.

Similarly, my right to defend my life ends neither at your property line nor your front door. Especially not when your reasons for doing so have nothing to do with your own safety or protecting your property, but are entirely for petty political reasons.

Cap'n Crash

08-16-13, 20:36

Well said, Fjall! I'd be happy to sacrifice my truck to you or anyone else to take cover behind. And hope to be shoulder to shoulder with you fighting the bastards!

Nola_Jack

08-16-13, 21:13

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but I just have to point out:

Your right to control who is on your property is less important than my right to live.

To put it in perspective, if I'm stranded in the middle of the woods, particularly in the middle of winter with feet of snow on the ground, highs below zero and I come across your summer cabin... well, let's just say that you're probably going to need a new door or a new window come the spring thaw.

If someone starts to shoot at me on the street and your car parked on the street is the nearest piece of cover, it's probably going to get a little bit holey.

That's not to say that it would necessarily be my first choice, but if the choice is between my life and your door or your car... I'm gonna f___in' live. And I expect the same of anybody and everybody else.

Similarly, my right to defend my life ends neither at your property line nor your front door. Especially not when your reasons for doing so have nothing to do with your own safety or protecting your property, but are entirely for petty political reasons.

You're right on all counts, however you are entirely skipping the option I am advocating. Why not allow both the property rights of the owner and your right to self defense intact? The simple solution is to not go. When you compare self defense to property rights the second always trumps the first, but before it ever comes to this choice there is another. Someone's property rights or you choosing to go somewhere you have no right or need to be.

Psalms144.1

08-16-13, 21:58

Father - (yes, I'm Catholic, and it makes me grin to start ANY conversation about recommending a pistol that way!) -

Your salesman probably did, in fact, put a j-frame in your hand. Despite the near legendary "concealability" factor of the little round gun, dimensionally it is, in fact, taller in the grip than the PM9, and as thick through the cylinder as any Glock. And, as an added bonus, it has very low capacity, crappy sights, and a heavy trigger to make it INCREDIBLY shootable!

Honestly, the reason the J-frame (specifically the hammerless models) have a reputation as pre-eminent pocket guns are (a) their profile is as close to snag free as possible, making drawing from the pocket a simple matter (of course, this "sleek" profile comes at the cost of very skimpy front sight and nearly non-existant rear); (b) the round butt profile of their grip is more "organic" than the sharper contrasting "straight" grips of most autoloaders, so they tend to "print" a little less; (c) barring catastrophic failure, they're the most reliable thing on the defensive market (though, if they DO have a problem, and I've had three fail on me - luckily all on the range - they require gunsmith and/or factory attention, usually, to get back in action); (d) most people envision employing a "deep concealment" weapon in or near contact distance, and the wheel-gun won't suffer from problems associated with autos that don't fire out of battery if the muzzle is in contact with a hard object (like your attacker's torso).

Again, I LOVE wheelguns in all shapes and sizes, I could never imagine my collection without any in it - several of which will be j-frames. However, my personal opinion is that, 10 years from now, the j-frame and its cousins will be to the self defense world what the SAA was once the "modern" DA revolvers hit the market en masse. There are, simply, too many other choices out there that make more sense today, given the size; limited capacity; the difficulty of accurate, fast shooting; and dead-slow reload speeds that the j-frame fights against. Wheel guns were always the choice of savvy pistoleers who didn't trust the (then) spotty reliability of semiautos, but, honestly, the reliability of modern quality semis has made even bigger leaps than the performance of good JHP ammunition, IMHO.

On a related note, somewhere back in this thread you made mention that you had a "primary carry" pistol - implying that you were willing to take shortcuts on the selection of this pistol. I'd respectfully suggest that, if this pistol will be what you carry to work every day, it is, in fact, you're "primary carry" weapon - unless you work a LOT fewer hours than I do. For me, unfortunately, I spend the overwhelming majority of my waking hours at least five days a week at work - and it sounds like you will be to. So, if your motivation is that your work is going to be in an area where you feel a heightened threat, why on Earth would you be looking for a LESS capable pistol than your everyday carry.

I'm in LE, so things are obviously easier for me, but, when I'm out to serve a warrant or getting ready to engage in some other enforcement action, I'm taking the MOST capable weapons I can - usually a long gun, a primary pistol and a BUG. And, I'm in armor, with supporting agents or officers from the local jurisdiction, communication equipment with other backup nearby, and medical assistance at the press of a button. When I have worked UC, I always took the most capable "non-issue" pistol I could hope to conceal on me - usually a baby Glock just for capacity sake, though the PM9 has served me well in that role as well.

Just some random thoughts from a dude you don't know, but I hope they might cause you to ask yourself some important questions...

Regards,

Kevin