View Full Version : Gun safety instructor shoots student in class
not sure if others saw this ?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/13/gun-safety-instructor-accidentally-shoots-student-while-reportedly-showing-how-to-properly-use-a-handgun/
got to say IDIOT !!! sadly some folks teaching gun safety or about guns should not be teaching !
sadly some folks teaching gun safety or about guns should not be teaching !
That applies to more people than you know.
73-year-old Terry J Dunlap Sr. was reportedly demonstrating how to properly use a handgun when he accidentally fired a bullet...
I wonder if age had anything to do with this incident. Just like there are some 70-year olds who should not drive, there are some who should not handle weapons unsupervised (or teach courses).
Five_Point_Five_Six
08-14-13, 10:17
I wonder if age had anything to do with this incident. Just like there are some 70-year olds who should not drive, there are some who should not handle weapons unsupervised (or teach courses).
Could have. A few months ago here at one of the WAC shows, an elderly man, who said all guns with him were unloaded, was setting up his booth and managed to do a desk pop into a cardboard box. No one hit, but he was escorted out.
Additional perspective on the instructor here: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/judge-not
A lifetime of good works doesn't excuse a bad deed, but it does help fill in the blanks and offer a more informed judgement. There is much to learn from this unfortunate, teachable moment.
Additional perspective on the instructor here: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/judge-not
A lifetime of good works doesn't excuse a bad deed, but it does help fill in the blanks and offer a more informed judgement. There is much to learn from this unfortunate, teachable moment.
He's obviously well qualified and well experienced and that actually kinda makes it even worse.
I posted this before and I really think it applies here:
Gun Safety For Dummies...And Experts... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1717327)
Just for starters, there should be ZERO REASON for any ammunition, let alone a loaded firearm, to be an a classroom environment.
I wonder if age had anything to do with this incident. Just like there are some 70-year olds who should not drive, there are some who should not handle weapons unsupervised (or teach courses).
That was my first thought as well.
While his age may have been a factor, his years of teaching is also probably a factor. He got complacent and not only allowed live ammo into his class, it was in his magazine, in the chamber, his firearm was pointed at a student, and he pulled the trigger.
That's just about every rule of firearm safety he broke while teaching people those rules.
Why is it an issue to have live rounds in a classroom environment?
I have done it loads of times, when teaching soldiers about different kinds of ammunition for different kinds of small arms.
That is not where he violated safety protocols, IMO.
That was my first thought as well.
While his age may have been a factor, his years of teaching is also probably a factor. He got complacent and not only allowed live ammo into his class, it was in his magazine, in the chamber, his firearm was pointed at a student, and he pulled the trigger.
That's just about every rule of firearm safety he broke while teaching people those rules.
In all fairness, I'm not sure that the gun was pointed at a student since the article seems to indicate it was a ricochet off a desk. On the other hand, having live ammo in the classroom is a big miss.
Just for starters, there should be ZERO REASON for any ammunition, let alone a loaded firearm, to be an a classroom environment.
I have to agree with you. There is no room for error when teaching in a classroom environment.
On the other hand, having live ammo in the classroom is a big miss.
Again, why is that problematic?
Why is it an issue to have live rounds in a classroom environment?
I have done it loads of times, when teaching soldiers about different kinds of ammunition for different kinds of small arms.
That is not where he violated safety protocols, IMO.
If you are in a gun safety class, especially if you plan to demonstrate with an actual firearm, there should be no live ammo anywhere. There have been TWO incidents where students were shot at a local police academy because they were doing weapon retaining drills where the magazines had been removed but a round left in the chamber.
Military environments are a bit different of course.
Again, why is that problematic?
Because it increases the odds of confusing loaded and unloaded weapons which is likely what happened in this case. There is also the chance of a student accidentally loading a weapon that is being used for instruction. This is pertinent because most classrooms do not have a designated safe direction with a backstop. So, virtually any direction the gun is pointed poses a hazard.
BTW, the army has neutered versions of virtually every type of ammunition and ordenance for your teaching pleasure. Outside of theater, I've never heard of a situation where company or battalion commanders allowed live ammo anywhere but the range. Granted, only 4 of my twenty years was in the combat arms.
could be ? then many 70 year olds have been driving bad for about 55 years !
I know some guys sharp as anything at 72 and some that are totally lost that had issues when young ?
yeah agree could be memory slip for sure ! that dumb old redneck kinda 72 year old no young punk is going to tell him what to do kinda thing ?
I wonder if age had anything to do with this incident. Just like there are some 70-year olds who should not drive, there are some who should not handle weapons unsupervised (or teach courses).
to me live ammo means in a fire arm (in the sense of danger)
the mistake is being handled not a bullet sitting there to show someone
but only loaded gun should be your carry and we dont do show and tell with it !
madisonsfinest
08-14-13, 15:42
Live ammo in classrooms have a way of finding themselves in firearms. My PD doesn't allow it, and you are always double and triple checking (yourself, a partner, and a member of the training staff )
to me live ammo means in a fire arm
the mistake is being handled not a bullet sitting there to show someone
but only loaded gun should be your carry and we dont do show and tell with it !
I know there have been times when I have been in classroom environments where the instructor, and probably a few students had a loaded firearm on their person.
The problem occurs when you wish to use that defensive weapon as a demonstration tool. Now perhaps there was once a time when you could instruct an entire class to clear their weapons of any ammo because you were going to practice draws or holds.
But that time no longer exists, you cannot depend on a classroom full of people who are there to learn basic gun safety to be that responsible. And if you are the instructor then you are the MOST responsible person in that room and carry the burden for everyone.
So if you are an "old timer" who is going to CCW a loaded weapon to the basic gun safety class you are teaching, don't use it as any kind of instructional tool or visual aid.
If you want to demonstrate a draw or hold get a blue gun. If you absolutely insist upon using actual firearms to demonstrate ANYTHING then you are immediately BOUND by the four rules of gun safety. Having ammo in your gun while you disregard one or more of those rules will eventually result in a situation that is potentially deadly but easily prevented.
If you have proper routines for clearing and inspecting firearms, having live ammo present is not an issue at all.
If you pay attention as an instructor, having live rounds present is not an issue.
For a variety of reasons, we would split the platoon in two when on the range; 1 group would do live fire, the other would do other drills. When switching, the group shooting first is first checked by the crew on the range, then for redundancy checked again in the drill area. We check weapon, magazines, mag pouches, dump pouches and uniform pockets to ensure that they have no live rounds on them prior to training.
Having a live round in a classroom is not a safety hazard at all. This person violated 2 safety rules; number 1 and 2, which led to the incident. Prior to that, he was not paying attention to what he was doing as an instructor.
It is also not like you have to give each guy an individual round. Have 1 sample of each, and pass it round. If your guys have guns holstered, placed on the floor/ground or lined up in the squad/platoon assembly area along with the rest of their gear, nothing bad will happen. As soon as the students have seen the rounds, collect them and place them in a proper location.
A live round does not load itself into a magazine or firearm, it requires a physical act to do this.
If this is a common occurence, that instructors accidentally shoot students, the more pressing issue is their qualification as instructors and proper organization of class, and how they conduct their POI. Not so much that a live round was in class.
Moose-Knuckle
08-14-13, 17:23
First Sonny Puzikas and now this guy . . .
The age old adage "one can never be TOO careful" comes to mind.
Had the basic rules been followed in that classroom the student would not have been shot, I know its MMQB but we have to learn from others' mistakes.
If you have proper routines for clearing and inspecting firearms, having live ammo present is not an issue at all.
If you pay attention as an instructor, having live rounds present is not an issue.
For a variety of reasons, we would split the platoon in two when on the range; 1 group would do live fire, the other would do other drills. When switching, the group shooting first is first checked by the crew on the range, then for redundancy checked again in the drill area. We check weapon, magazines, mag pouches, dump pouches and uniform pockets to ensure that they have no live rounds on them prior to training.
Having a live round in a classroom is not a safety hazard at all. This person violated 2 safety rules; number 1 and 2, which led to the incident. Prior to that, he was not paying attention to what he was doing as an instructor.
It is also not like you have to give each guy an individual round. Have 1 sample of each, and pass it round. If your guys have guns holstered, placed on the floor/ground or lined up in the squad/platoon assembly area along with the rest of their gear, nothing bad will happen. As soon as the students have seen the rounds, collect them and place them in a proper location.
A live round does not load itself into a magazine or firearm, it requires a physical act to do this.
If this is a common occurence, that instructors accidentally shoot students, the more pressing issue is their qualification as instructors and proper organization of class, and how they conduct their POI. Not so much that a live round was in class.
I completely agree that it was a violation of the basic safety rules that led to this ND. I also agree that is it possible to conduct a safety class with loaded weapons if people present are responsible enough to clear and inspect.
However that can be a LOT to ask when the environment is a bunch of new people taking their first gun safety class. Had this happened in a military environment I suspect several students would have prevented it from happening at all and intervened when the instructor began to violate basic rules for safe gun handling.
As a result, I think having "no live ammo present" provides yet another safety net to environments like basic gun safety classes where the probability for violation of basic safety rules is higher than usual.
The sad part in this case is those violations were not on the part of a new student but a very experienced instructor. And while such instances may be extremely rare, we should take any reasonable steps to minimize the risk as much as possible.
Having an instructor bounce a round off a desk into a student doesn't promote a gun safe environment. Ironically it may serve to function as a real world "don't do" example for everyone in the class. Sadly I think it is more likely to make many new shooters decide that guns simply aren't safe.
Just to be clear, I am NOT advocating using firearms that contain live ammunition during any sort of training, outside live fire drills.
That said, one simple step as part of organizing a class to reduce the risk of accidental/negligent shootings from happening is to clear and inspect every firearm prior to entering the classroom.
This is why you make them sign a hold harmless waiver. CYA like the ranges around here do.
Failure2Stop
08-15-13, 11:04
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those that have had an ND, and those that will.
The idea is to ensure that when that unfortunate occurrence comes to pass that no one is hurt because of it; otherwise there would be only 1 safety rule: don't fire the gun except when you want to.
Guns are dangerous. Humans make mistakes. Life is risk.
Approach the world accordingly.
Well said F2S!
For the Internet's sake I'll post 4 rules everyone's heard:
1 All guns are always loaded.
2 Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4 Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Obviously this wouldn't have happened if 1, 2, or 3 were followed.
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