View Full Version : PSA 16'' PA-15 HF SS12G2 Carbine Initial inspection and range report.
signkutter
08-16-13, 21:32
I FINALLY received this rifle after 3 weeks. Oh well it was worth the wait. First things first, I broke the weapon down to its component parts and inspected them, initial scrubbing.... got rid of the factory stock, grip and fluff-n-buffed the trigger ( trigger was gritty and around an 8lber). Real pleased with the quality of the build. Weapon was exactly as PSA described. I added some Magpul flippers and proceeded to zero out the weapon.
I had access to only a 50 yard range... but I was easily grouping 5 rounds at about 1" (seated, elbow on table, no rear support) with the Aimpoint PRO. I shot about 40 rounds with no mishaps. After I mount my 1x5 scope, switch out to JP trigger springs, shoot supported prone... sub-MOA shouldn't be a problem.
So far ...for $1079 shipped, this was SWEET deal.
I'd love some pics of this
I don't suppose that you measured the gas port or know what size they claim it is, do you?
Grand58742
08-17-13, 08:00
I don't suppose that you measured the gas port or know what size they claim it is, do you?
I don't think I've ever seen PSA (or FN for that matter) discuss the gas port size. It's not on their site.
polymorpheous
08-17-13, 08:20
I don't think I've ever seen PSA (or FN for that matter) discuss the gas port size. It's not on their site.
I don't think FN makes a stainless barrel.
Grand58742
08-17-13, 08:32
I don't think FN makes a stainless barrel.
I think you are correct, but the SS in this refers to the Midwest Industries handguard.
The barrel, OP can correct me if I'm wrong, belongs to this type of upper:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-16-hf-m4a1-ss12g2-strikefire-premium-carbine.html
polymorpheous
08-17-13, 08:36
I think you are correct, but the SS in this refers to the Midwest Industries handguard.
The barrel, OP can correct me if I'm wrong, belongs to this type of upper:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-16-hf-m4a1-ss12g2-strikefire-premium-carbine.html
Right you are!
signkutter is using an Aimpoint Pro, not a Strikefire.
PSA offers CHF stainless steel barrels. They don't say who makes them, but it would not surprise me if it was FN
Five_Point_Five_Six
08-17-13, 10:00
signkutter is using an Aimpoint Pro, not a Strikefire.
PSA offers CHF stainless steel barrels. They don't say who makes them, but it would not surprise me if it was FN
Barrel: A proprietary blend of Hammer forged chrome molly vanadium made by FN that is referred to as "Machine Gun Steel" by virtue of its use in FN's M249 and M240 weapons.
Taken directly from the detail section of one of their rifles.
Lemme try this again-
I don't think FN makes a stainless barrel.
PSA offers CHF stainless steel barrels. They don't say who makes them, but it would not surprise me if it was FN
Complete with link-
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/upper-parts/barrels/5-56-223/psa-20-5-56-nato-hammer-forged-stainless-steel-heavy-profile-barrel.html
:ph34r:
This is why I asked if he measured it. Claim could also be correspondence between PSA and himself or others.
I don't think I've ever seen PSA (or FN for that matter) discuss the gas port size. It's not on their site.
IG I measured PSA 16" HF M/L last summer when I took off the FSB(.750") to shave down. It measured .078" with a pin gauge. I recently removed a FSB off a new 16" Bushy pins were the easiest I have removed. I was shocked when I measured the gas port with a pin gauge it was .063". Staking in the BCG was excellent.
I FINALLY received this rifle after 3 weeks.
I have ordered from PSA at least a dozen times, 3 weeks is the minimum I have waited to receive my order. 4-5 weeks has been the most common. One order took 8 weeks. None were back orders, either.
PSA has some really good deals, and I will continue to give them some of my business, but fast shipping, at least in my dealings with them, is not a strong point.
signkutter
08-17-13, 16:46
I think you are correct, but the SS in this refers to the Midwest Industries handguard.
The barrel, OP can correct me if I'm wrong, belongs to this type of upper:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-16-hf-m4a1-ss12g2-strikefire-premium-carbine.html
Correct. The barrel is a FN manufactured CHF cmv barrel.
signkutter
08-17-13, 17:04
I don't suppose that you measured the gas port or know what size they claim it is, do you?
Well first off there is no claim as to port size. Second, the rifle functioned flawless so there was no reason toinspect the port. I have not had anybody at PSA state a size of port to me. From the way the rifle functions I would assume that the port is fine.
signkutter
08-17-13, 17:12
I'd love some pics of this
I will post some as soon as I hit the 100 yard range.
Nevermind.
Well first off there is no claim as to port size. Second, the rifle functioned flawless so there was no reason toinspect the port. I have not had anybody at PSA state a size of port to me. From the way the rifle functions I would assume that the port is fine.
Originally Posted by signkutter View Post
Well first off there is no claim as to port size. Second, the rifle functioned flawless so there was no reason toinspect the port. I have not had anybody at PSA state a size of port to me. From the way the rifle functions I would assume that the port is fine.
Nevermind.
LOL...
signkutter
08-17-13, 19:41
Nevermind.
that seems like the best course.
I don't think I've ever seen PSA (or FN for that matter) discuss the gas port size. It's not on their site.
Why would you list FN in your comment?
Grand58742
08-17-13, 20:19
Why would you list FN in your comment?
Because a lot of PSA barrels are FN made. And nothing on the FNH-USA site about their AR barrels specifically.
Because a lot of PSA barrels are FN made. And nothing on the FNH-USA site about their AR barrels specifically.
That is because FN doesn't make any commercially available AR's or AR barrels (with their name on it).
If you contact FN to make a barrel for you, you MUST submit a drawing for the barrel (to include the GP size). So the GP size could be anything.
C4
Grand58742
08-17-13, 20:31
That is because FN doesn't make any commercially available AR's or AR barrels (with their name on it).
If you contact FN to make a barrel for you, you MUST submit a drawing for the barrel (to include the GP size). So the GP size could be anything.
C4
Fair enough answer.
that seems like the best course.
Is the line ready? The line is ready. You may fire when your foot appears!
signkutter
08-17-13, 21:25
Why would you list FN in your comment?
I think this is why
PalmettoStateArmory
Company Rep
Industry Partner
Joined: May 2008
USA USA
Yes, our hammer forged barrels are made by FN.
Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By PalmettoStateArmory:
We have had several questions about the steel used in these barrels.
The bore and chamber are chrome lined. The steel is Machine Gun Steel, a patented blend developed by FN and used for their government contracts. The blend is designed to exceed all military requirements and is the same blend used in FN's M16, M240 and M249 barrels. The barrels are Hammer Forged, individually MPI and individually High Pressure Tested. We are one of the few companies to offer this superior barrel.
Does this mean that FN is making your barrels???
signkutter
08-17-13, 21:30
Is the line ready? The line is ready. You may fire when your foot appears!
What are you referring to?
signkutter
08-17-13, 21:35
That is because FN doesn't make any commercially available AR's or AR barrels (with their name on it).
If you contact FN to make a barrel for you, you MUST submit a drawing for the barrel (to include the GP size). So the GP size could be anything.
C4
Would it be safe to assume that a gas port is within normal tolerances if a weapon functions normally? I suppose i could remove the rail and the gas block to plug gauge the gas port... I dont see why any reasonable person would do such a thing unless there were function problems pointing to a too big/small GP.
Would it be safe to assume that a gas port is within normal tolerances if a weapon functions normally? I suppose i could remove the rail and the gas block to plug gauge the gas port... I dont see why any reasonable person would do such a thing unless there were function problems pointing to a too big/small GP.
40 rounds without a a malfunction does not give much of a sampling of a weapon's reliability.
IG is asking for a very detailed point of information for a reason. Many entry level AR's run a more wide open gas port to make up short comings somewhere else in the gun. They become over-gassed so they will run with garbage ammo, quality stuff, and everything in between. PSA is still cutting their teeth in the AR market and building a name, so gathering some info of the ins/outs of their guns is the best way to judge their quality in the long run.
Is it over thought inconsequential minutiae...Sure, but this is the internetz, it's what we do.
signkutter
08-17-13, 22:28
Nevermind.
My apologies IG. I read your post quoted on another post here and misinterpreted your question.
In response to your question, I have not asked PSA folks what size their gas ports are manufactured to. I give it a go. If i can get a response from them I will post it here and plug my own PSA barrel to see if what they say is accurate.
signkutter
08-17-13, 22:37
=zirkdog;1723771]40 rounds without a a malfunction does not give much of a sampling of a weapon's reliability. No , as far as long term reliability 40 rounds is nothing. But I have not alluded to any durability determinations and wont for a good while.
IG is asking for a very detailed point of information for a reason. Many entry level AR's run a more wide open gas port to make up short comings somewhere else in the gun. They become over-gassed so they will run with garbage ammo, quality stuff, and everything in between. PSA is still cutting their teeth in the AR market and building a name, so gathering some info of the ins/outs of their guns is the best way to judge their quality in the long run.
Duly noted. Thanks for clearing that up. I misinterpreted I.G's question, a perfectly logical and valid question at that.
As far as overgassed... the PSA rifle I have does not seem to have as much recoil as my duty M-4, this alone may not prove that the gas ports are not oversized it does point in that direction. When i get a bit of time and motivation i will remove the necessary components and check the gas port.
Is is over thought inconsequential minutiae...Sure, but this is the internetz, it's what we do.
It is why I lurk this forum. Lots of good info to be gleaned. Here is an interesting thread on various FN manufactured barrels and the results from tests
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/559831_FN_manufactured_CHF_barrels_RESULTS_IN_OP__MORE_INBOUND___CODE_BROKEN__YOU_DECIDE.html&page=21#i5403979%3Cbr%20/%3E
PA PATRIOT
08-18-13, 09:47
Just before the great rush PSA was selling 14.5" M4 profile carbine length barrels and 16"pencil profile mid-length barrels dirt cheap and I picked a few of each up.
First both styles of barrels were manufactured by FN and I have personally confirmed this with FN. Below is what my skill level with a pin gauge showed,
14.5" barrel, .750 dia. Carbine length
Port size from .063"
16" barrel, .625" dia. Mid-length
Port size .072"
Both will cycle perfectly with any brand of cheap steel case with a "H" buffer and Springco White standard power spring. I'll throw in a "H2" for a steady diet of 5.56 but some steel cased (Tula) will short stroke with this combo.
signkutter
08-18-13, 14:28
Range results were not as great as I hoped. After I zeroed the scope ( 1x5 Weaver tactical) at 50 yards I proceeded to print a 9 round group that was .980 so I had high hopes that I would be able to print a 5 round group at 100 yards...http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_144027_zps282acce1.jpg
My hopes were not completely fulfilled. From a seated position and shooting off a bag ( not the best set up, but the best I could do atm)
So with a 7-8 lb trigger this is what I got.
Winchester XM193 @ 100 yards the best I could get was 2.304 group of 5.
Remington ranger 64 SP best 5 was 1.843.
Speer 64g GDSP came with a best 5 shot of 1.394
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_143915_zps18a1bef5.jpg
Golden bear 62 g SP best 5 was 2.169
Hornady TAP 75g BTHP was the best at 5 shot with .931 spread. I think this is 5... may be four.
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_143746_zpsf33c0813.jpg
So far this all I have to test. I am going try some 55g ZMAX that a friend says runs sub MOA in his PSA barrel. I am going to try a fully supported set up along with a quality aftermarket trigger, I think that the groups will tighten up considerably... Still this is good performance for a $670 rifle ($1059 sale price - $400 Aimpoint that now rides an AUG)with off-the-shelf ammo
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/bad7568b-84db-4ddf-9cba-2811c475a6cf_zpsf0f19568.jpg?t=1376856815
That is because FN doesn't make any commercially available AR's or AR barrels (with their name on it).
C4
You just never know what may pop up.....
found this for sale on TOS: 16" FN marked M-4 BBL.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_22/1196764_16_FN_M4_Barrel__Stripped.html
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u21/George_in_Wis/002_zps0904e547.jpg
.
I don't think FN makes a stainless barrel.
They do.
http://www.fnmfg.com/capabilities/Gun%20Barrels/
"Selection: We produce a complete range of pistol (including threaded barrels) and rifle barrels for commercial applications as well as rifled tubes for sniper weapons and machine gun barrels for military or law enforcement applications. We can meet virtually any caliber requirement and can produce lengths ranging from 4.0” to 28” in length in a wide variety of profiles from light to heavy, M4, M16, M240, etc.
Finishes include manganese phosphate, stainless steel, and hard and soft chrome."
.
black22rifle
08-18-13, 15:38
Just before the great rush PSA was selling 14.5" M4 profile carbine length barrels and 16"pencil profile mid-length barrels dirt cheap and I picked a few of each up.
First both styles of barrels were manufactured by FN and I have personally confirmed this with FN. Below is what my skill level with a pin gauge showed,
14.5" barrel, .750 dia. Carbine length
Port size from .063"
16" barrel, .625" dia. Mid-length
Port size .072"
Both will cycle perfectly with any brand of cheap steel case with a "H" buffer and Springco White standard power spring. I'll throw in a "H2" for a steady diet of 5.56 but some steel cased (Tula) will short stroke with this combo.
Iraqgunz, is .072" ok for a midlength with a .625" gas block? How come some of you don't just use come dial calipers?
signkutter
08-18-13, 15:44
Iraqgunz, is .072" ok for a midlength with a .625" gas block? How come some of you don't just use come dial calipers?
digital or dial calipers are fine for +/- .003 but when you want to get within .+/- .0005 ... gauge blocks, plug gauges, micrometers are the way to go
Range results were not as great as I hoped. After I zeroed the scope ( 1x5 Weaver tactical) at 50 yards I proceeded to print a 9 round group that was .980 so I had high hopes that I would be able to print a 5 round group at 100 yards...http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_144027_zps282acce1.jpg
My hopes were not completely fulfilled. From a seated position and shooting off a bag ( not the best set up, but the best I could do atm)
So with a 7-8 lb trigger this is what I got.
Winchester XM193 @ 100 yards the best I could get was 2.304 group of 5.
Remington ranger 64 SP best 5 was 1.843.
Speer 64g GDSP came with a best 5 shot of 1.394
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_143915_zps18a1bef5.jpg
Golden bear 62 g SP best 5 was 2.169
Hornady TAP 75g BTHP was the best at 5 shot with .931 spread. I think this is 5... may be four.
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_143746_zpsf33c0813.jpg
So far this all I have to test. I am going try some 55g ZMAX that a friend says runs sub MOA in his PSA barrel. I am going to try a fully supported set up along with a quality aftermarket trigger, I think that the groups will tighten up considerably... Still this is good performance for a $670 rifle ($1059 sale price - $400 Aimpoint that now rides an AUG)with off-the-shelf ammo
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/bad7568b-84db-4ddf-9cba-2811c475a6cf_zpsf0f19568.jpg?t=1376856815
Looks like excellent performance in my opinion so not sure why you were disappointed. Most of the ammo you shot was 2-3moa ammo on a good day so no surprises you were getting 2" groups.
sinlessorrow
08-18-13, 17:04
You just never know what may pop up.....
found this for sale on TOS: 16" FN marked M-4 BBL.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_22/1196764_16_FN_M4_Barrel__Stripped.html
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u21/George_in_Wis/002_zps0904e547.jpg
.
Pulled very early PSA barrel. In order for FNH to make a barrel for the commercial market a makers must submit the design including gas port.
They cannot make their own barrels to sale to civilians since Colt owns the TDP.
That is why gas port could be anything, the manuf. tells FNH what they want.
All this talk of gas port sizes would make you think proper/preferred sizes are some sorta secret only known/available to certain manufacturers.
There is no standard for a midlength since there is no TDP. I believe its a little small the number I am used to seeing is around .076. In the end I suppose if it will run with a cross section of good ammo then its fine.
Iraqgunz, is .072" ok for a midlength with a .625" gas block? How come some of you don't just use come dial calipers?
Pulled very early PSA barrel. In order for FNH to make a barrel for the commercial market a makers must submit the design including gas port.
It maybe a pulled PSA barrel but it is still an FN marked M-4 barrel; this was in response to Grant's statement "That is because FN doesn't make any commercially available AR's or AR barrels (with their name on it).
C4" They do make one with their name on it.
They cannot make their own barrels to sale to civilians since Colt owns the TDP.
That is why gas port could be anything, the manuf. tells FNH what they want.
I'm not trying to nitpick this just answering some questions.
.
signkutter
08-18-13, 17:28
Looks like excellent performance in my opinion so not sure why you were disappointed. I expected sub-moa consistency from the SPEER GDSP, extrapolating from the sub 1 inch, 9 shot group at 50yards. I was a bit disappointed that the Hornady 75g TAP out performed the SPEER... I have WAY more SPEER than Hornady. As far as performance of the rifle over all I am satisfied. The Hornady ranged from that sub-MOA group to about 1.5 inch groups... so even from the same brand out of the same case there is variance.
Most of the ammo you shot was 2-3moa ammo on a good day so no surprises you were getting 2" groups. That is almost verbatim what a re-loader picking up brass said to me and added that if I wanted consistent sub MOA out of the rifle I would have to start reloading. I wish I had the time.
What are you using this for? Are you going to shoot at Camp Perry or the new classified AR league in the olympics?
If someone takes your rifle and shoots someone at 200 yards and puts 9 rounds into a 5" group are they going to be more or less dead in the end?
Will a 3 MOA group kill you deader? :p
I expected sub-moa consistency from the SPEER GDSP, extrapolating from the sub 1 inch, 9 shot group at 50yards. I was a bit disappointed that the Hornady 75g TAP out performed the SPEER... I have WAY more SPEER than Hornady. As far as performance of the rifle over all I am satisfied. The Hornady ranged from that sub-MOA group to about 1.5 inch groups... so even from the same brand out of the same case there is variance.
That is almost verbatim what a re-loader picking up brass said to me and added that if I wanted consistent sub MOA out of the rifle I would have to start reloading. I wish I had the time.
I expected sub-moa consistency from the SPEER GDSP, extrapolating from the sub 1 inch, 9 shot group at 50yards. I was a bit disappointed that the Hornady 75g TAP out performed the SPEER... I have WAY more SPEER than Hornady. As far as performance of the rifle over all I am satisfied. The Hornady ranged from that sub-MOA group to about 1.5 inch groups... so even from the same brand out of the same case there is variance.
That is almost verbatim what a re-loader picking up brass said to me and added that if I wanted consistent sub MOA out of the rifle I would have to start reloading. I wish I had the time.
Yeah reloading changes the way you view ammo. Its VERY difficult to get sub moa from factory loaded ammo....even the match grade stuff since there is no guarantee that your particular barrel will like that ammo.
Also performance at a given distance doesn't always transfer to performance at another distance which explains your results with the Speer. Reloaders understand this concept and will loss their ammo to its best performance at their chosen distance. I have a load using 77gr SMK that I use specifically for a steel plate match locally which is shot at 200-300yds iron sights only on 7"x13" plates. My load prints terribly at 50yds but is easily 1moa or better out at 300yds. I worked the load up to be very accurate using a magnified optic so that its very forgiving using iron sights against the timer.
My point is that unless you're gonna start loading your own ammo dont go spending too much money buying a bunch of factory loaded match grade stuff trying to get sub moa performance.
signkutter
08-18-13, 18:50
[QUOTE=Iraqgunz;1724241]What are you using this for?
Shooting bullets at stuff. The closer those bullets impact where I am aiming the better!
Are you going to shoot at Camp Perry or the new classified AR league in the olympics?
If I find myself near Camp Perry .. why the heck not? Is there a new AR league in the Olympics?!? Because I'll bet the U.S is gonna stomp the world in that one... they should also make an Olympic monster truck derby!!
If someone takes your rifle and shoots someone at 200 yards and puts 9 rounds into a 5" group are they going to be more or less dead in the end?
9 rounds in a 5" group!!! In one Dude!?! I'm going with MORE DEAD man!!! At 200yards thats some serious accurate and fast shooting.... we are talking Robo-Cop levels here man..!
Will a 3 MOA group kill you deader? :p
I think so man... if you sink a 3 moa group into a dude.. he is gonna be more deader than not. If that dude is standing about 25 yards in front of you... thats clover-leafin time. Definitely more dead... but not as dead as a 1 MOA group...
I guess you're not getting the point. Enjoy your AR.
[QUOTE]
Shooting bullets at stuff. The closer those bullets impact where I am aiming the better!
If I find myself near Camp Perry .. why the heck not? Is there a new AR league in the Olympics?!? Because I'll bet the U.S is gonna stomp the world in that one... they should also make an Olympic monster truck derby!!
9 rounds in a 5" group!!! In one Dude!?! I'm going with MORE DEAD man!!! At 200yards thats some serious accurate and fast shooting.... we are talking Robo-Cop levels here man..!
I think so man... if you sink a 3 moa group into a dude.. he is gonna be more deader than not. If that dude is standing about 25 yards in front of you... thats clover-leafin time. Definitely more dead... but not as dead as a 1 MOA group...
signkutter
08-18-13, 19:03
Yeah reloading changes the way you view ammo. Its VERY difficult to get sub moa from factory loaded ammo....even the match grade stuff since there is no guarantee that your particular barrel will like that ammo.
Also performance at a given distance doesn't always transfer to performance at another distance which explains your results with the Speer. Reloaders understand this concept and will loss their ammo to its best performance at their chosen distance. I have a load using 77gr SMK that I use specifically for a steel plate match locally which is shot at 200-300yds iron sights only on 7"x13" plates. My load prints terribly at 50yds but is easily 1moa or better out at 300yds. I worked the load up to be very accurate using a magnified optic so that its very forgiving using iron sights against the timer.
My point is that unless you're gonna start loading your own ammo dont go spending too much money buying a bunch of factory loaded match grade stuff trying to get sub moa performance.
I hear you. Sounds like a textbook case of diminishing returns for time and money invested. I think the SPEER GDSP and the Hornady TAP will do very well for what I will use the weapon for.
signkutter
08-18-13, 19:09
I guess you're not getting the point. Enjoy your AR.
I thought you were making your point joking around I.G. I was doing the same, no offense intended.
But I do enjoy a better than average shooting weapon. If I didn't care about accuracy I would have purchased a Battle Rifle or built a franken AR for $500. I have been qualing and training with a Colt M-4 lfor a good while now and even though it is at best a 3MOA rifle.. I have no problems taking it out in the field..... Now would I rather take out my AR or my AUG... sure... but that isn't an option
Range results were not as great as I hoped. After I zeroed the scope ( 1x5 Weaver tactical) at 50 yards I proceeded to print a 9 round group that was .980 so I had high hopes that I would be able to print a 5 round group at 100 yards...http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/tirepics/20130818_144027_zps282acce1.jpg
You do realize that a .980" group at 50 yds is a 1.9 MOA group? I'm not sure why you expected better results at a longer range.
signkutter
08-18-13, 20:11
You do realize that a .980" group at 50 yds is a 1.9 MOA group? I'm not sure why you expected better results at a longer range.
Yes I do realize that... but you do realize that holding a 9 round 1.9 MOA group 100 yards out is exponentially harder than holding a 9 round .980 50 yard group right? It is the reason I did not assign MOA to the 50 yard group, it would have been at best naive to think that I could hold a 9 round 1.9 MOA group. ( the group of .980 is a 9 round group, if I had stopped at 5 rounds it would have been a .5 group. My 100 yard groups are 5 rounders, had I stopped at 3 rounds my sub-MOA group % would have risen dramatically)
Try shooting your best 5 round group at 50 yards ... mathematically double it for a 100 yard group... By your metric... If you shoot a .5" group of 5 @ 50 yards..you should be able to shoot a 1" group of 5 at 100 yards with no problem.
My best 5 shot group @ 100 yards (using the same ammo I used in the 9 shot .980 50 yard group) was was 1.394, most were in the 2" zone. Had I shot groups of 9... no way would I have come in under 2"
Try it out and please , no bench rests, just you a table and a range bag, let me know how it goes.
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