Thinking about building a SPR/MK12 rifle.

[Djstorm100]

Since I can't find SBR anything just about in the flavor I would like, my attention has turn to SPR. Role of this rifle would to be able to send multpile rounds down range (if I do my part) and hit 2-4 inch at 400-500 yards. Is this asking to much? All I would need is the upper as I have a stripped lower already. When my Tax Stamp come back I'll just throw the SBR together then (I hope stock for sbr's come up by then). Any one suggest a optic as well? Been looking at Vortex's and Sightron's.

My looking at what is out there. I know I'll be shooting 62 grain at the very least but more so 77 grain. Give this grain I though 1/7 twist would be perferred over a 1/8. 1/8 is all I'm finding for a 18 inch barrels, 20 inch has cross my mind but I don't see the pros in the addition two inches.

Thanks for the help!

[dentron]

Legit MK12:
https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=mk12.tpl&product_id=48

More affordable SPR:
https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=dmr-uppers.tpl&product_id=80

[Caduceus]

Since I can't find SBR anything just about in the flavor I would like, my attention has turn to SPR. Role of this rifle would to be able to send multpile rounds down range (if I do my part) and hit 2-4 inch at 400-500 yards. Is this asking to much? All I would need is the upper as I have a stripped lower already. When my Tax Stamp come back I'll just throw the SBR together then (I hope stock for sbr's come up by then). Any one suggest a optic as well? Been looking at Vortex's and Sightron's.

My looking at what is out there. I know I'll be shooting 62 grain at the very least but more so 77 grain. Give this grain I though 1/7 twist would be perferred over a 1/8. 1/8 is all I'm finding for a 18 inch barrels, 20 inch has cross my mind but I don't see the pros in the addition two inches.

Thanks for the help!

I'm far from the expert on this board, but are you shooting M855 (you say 62 grain)? If so, you're going to have a hard time hitting that small a group at that distance, since it's typically assumed to be around 3-5 MOA ammo (ie, 400 yards, 12-15 inch groups)

1/8 seems to be acceptable for that weight, based on what I've read.

[steyrman13]

Have you used the search button? There are a TON of threads on here that will give you all opinions, facts, variations etc.

With that said. A 1/8 is more popular than 1/7 now because it is "better" for the most range in bullet weights. It will shoot varmint loads like ~40 grains up to single load 80gr SMK. The most optimal for you range is 69gr SMK and 77SMK if you want to stretch it a little further with less wind effecting it. There are 3 memebers here that are testing the 80SMK with great results, except you can magazine feed them. FGMM 77 or 69 and Hornady TAP .223 75gr, and BHA 77grSMK are probably the best you will see from factory ammo, otherwise Handloads will be your key.
If you are wanting an SPR, steer away from 62gr M855/55 gr XM193-not an accurate round.
SS is probably your best bet for a barrel for the accuracy you are looking for.
WOA and Wilson and possibly Ranier Match? offer 1/7 twist SPR profile SS match barrels with my nod to the WOA (White Oak Armament)
The consensus here though is it is pretty dang tough to beat the BCM SS 18" 1/8 barrel. Do a search on here for the results with BCM barrels.
I would choose Vortex PST line between the two you mentioned.
Depending on your price range and weight/size you are wanting, Also take a look at Bushnell DMR/HDMR, Leupold Mark6 3-18, Nightforce 2.5-10, USO 1.8-10/3.7-17 scopes, But for the money, it is going to be hard to beat the Vortex PST line.

[TAZ]

I have an SPR knock off upper built around a WOA 18" 1/7 barrel. I am MOA capable with FGMM77 or even the Hornady 75 Steel Match or training ammo. I am 100% certain that operator head gap is the biggest issue this gun has. Not sure of you'll get to a 2" group at 500, but hey it's worth a try.

[J Krammes]

Mine has an 18" WOA SPR barrel in 1:7 and rifle length gas system, and a Geiseele SSA-E. I topped it off with a Vortex 6.5-20x50 (30mm tube). It is sub MOA with factory ammo. I have no problem hitting prairie dog targets @ 500yrds even with 55gr PMC Bronze. It likes 69 or 77gr better, but it shoots 55's just fine.

http://techno-ruby.smugmug.com/photos/i-8ZRVBtt/1/L/i-8ZRVBtt-L.jpg

This is with Blackhills 77gr. I had less than 100 rounds through the gun at this point. I know... It's not 10 rounds...:eek:

http://techno-ruby.smugmug.com/photos/i-bnBpBrd/0/L/i-bnBpBrd-L.jpg

[Djstorm100]

Thanks guys for the input. I've been out if for a while and now just getting my feet wet. I feel like I have to learn everything I knew over again. I saw BCM 18" mk12 uppers. Why go for ss barrel vs standard material? I may just build the upper (more enjoyment) to be honest.


Sent from from your Sister's bedroom.

[jmk]

Legit MK12:
https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=mk12.tpl&product_id=48

More affordable SPR:
https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=dmr-uppers.tpl&product_id=80

what he said, but the most important part, at least:
https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=barrel_detail.tpl&product_id=46

consider that you haven't really said whether you want an SPR or a target rifle. your OP indicates a fairly casual interest & goal (nothing wrong there) but the two are entirely different things, really, and the pricing varies accordingly.

if you just want to make small groups, get this plus a good trigger in your lower and call it a day:
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=387

[Alex V]

I know Centurion is top notch, but what do you guys make of this as a Mod-0:

http://www.precisionreflex.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=Mark12%20Mod%200%20SPR

[Djstorm100]

what he said, but the most important part, at least:
https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=barrel_detail.tpl&product_id=46

consider that you haven't really said whether you want an SPR or a target rifle. your OP indicates a fairly casual interest & goal (nothing wrong there) but the two are entirely different things, really, and the pricing varies accordingly.

if you just want to make small groups, get this plus a good trigger in your lower and call it a day:
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=387

As foolish as this sounds I honestly don't know the difference. Purpose would be to use for training and to hit targets that I can't with red dot on my 16" ar. To give a little more "reach out and touch somebody". I try not to have more than two of the same role of rifles. Each rifle has a purpose. SBR for home/truck defense, 16" for training range duty, SPR for longer ranges mostly prone, Bolt gun for even farther shooting.

[Djstorm100]

I know Centurion is top notch, but what do you guys make of this as a Mod-0:

http://www.precisionreflex.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=Mark12%20Mod%200%20SPR

Has Centruion always been top tier? (DD,BCM,LMT, Novseke)


On another note here is the barrel I would be looking at for the build. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17567&cat=250&page=2

[J Krammes]

On another note here is the barrel I would be looking at for the build. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17567&cat=250&page=2

That is the barrel I have on mine in the above post... It works for me.

[Onyx Z]

Have you looked into the intermediate gas 18" barrels? It's in between rifle and midlength gas and from my understanding, Noveske and Rainier are the only ones doing this.The Noveske barrel is 1/7 and Rainier is 1/8 so you can take your pick on the barrel twist. I have put in a lot of time researching Rifle vs. Intermediate gas and have found that it is more reliable than rifle length, but still soft shooting and accurate.

Remember, the barrel is the heart of the rifle and the area you should not skimp on.

Read this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=17452

From Noveske: "Since the development of the 18" SPR barrel, there has not been a proper gas port placement to work with the desirable barrel length. Now there is a perfect combination, introducing the "Intermediate Length" gas system. Developed by Vltor Weapon Systems, and perfected by Noveske Rifleworks, the intermediate length gas system offers the ideal gas port placement, providing maximum accuracy and reliability. Overall, the intermediate length gas system (1.5" shorter then a rifle length) was developed from feedback from end users and industry professionals. Accuracy and reliability are the best characteristics of the intermediate length gas system."

[jmk]

As foolish as this sounds I honestly don't know the difference. Purpose would be to use for training and to hit targets that I can't with red dot on my 16" ar. To give a little more "reach out and touch somebody". I try not to have more than two of the same role of rifles. Each rifle has a purpose. SBR for home/truck defense, 16" for training range duty, SPR for longer ranges mostly prone, Bolt gun for even farther shooting.

depending on what barrel & trigger you have in your 16 you might be pleasantly surprised at what you can reach out and touch just by installing a decent scope in a good qd mount and using match ammo.
since you'll have to do that regardless which route you choose, i suggest that as a first step.
throw in a qd mount for your red dot, you've got an easily convertible system.

if you don't have a decent scope yet, get started here:
Super Sniper 10x42 Tactical Riflescope P53712
or
Bushnell Elite 3200 Tactical Rifle Scope 10x40mm

triggers: ALG ACT, RRA 2-s, LMT 2-s, and so on up the scale. don't know where your 16 is at now...

that will keep you around $500 and get you well on your way once you start with match ammo.

but if you've just got the itch for another upper (and who doesn't?), the first thing you need to decide is if you want an SPR clone or if you just want an accurate AR.
the closer you want to be to an SPR, the more money it's going to cost by far. and a giant portion of that money has way more to do with storied history and "The Look" than pure accuracy.

again, if you just want an accurate upper for mid-range target practice, get something like an RRA predator/varmint/national match. around $800 and RRA states .75 MOA capable.

if you want an SPR-class battle rifle, go with centurion arms or mstn or pri, depending on your preferred variant. and be prepared to double the cost of an RRA.

also consider larue tactical's predatAR or stealth uppers. not SPR's per se, but very accurate, high-quality AR's.

[skatz11]

I have a WOA barreled mod 0 clone that shoots great. I run a SWFA SS 3-9.

17906

That being said, there are a lot of options and price ranges for SPR style setups. You will get great results with any of the previously mentioned barrels of you feed it good ammo.

[Djstorm100]

For the most part is it cheaper to build a rifle per say or to buy one?

With both rifles having the same components of course, so we can compare apples to apples

[jmk]

For the most part is it cheaper to build a rifle per say or to buy one?

With both rifles having the same components of course, so we can compare apples to apples

it's cheaper (and safer) to buy. you need tools (some proprietary to a single component), knowledge and experience - especially for an accurate rifle.

there's only 2 advantages to building it yourself:
1. you can get exactly the components you want (but it's easy to be too smart for your own good there (ask me how i know))
2. you can spread the cost out over time - if you've got the patience.

so, anyone who can change a tire can assemble an AR. but having one built right, by a craftsman, has value beyond whatever savings might appear to be gained.

the pricing game is kinda fun. go to rainier arms, price one of their complete ultramatch uppers, then price the components (i suggest them because it's straight forward to figure out their BoM). then add in tools, etc. and see where you end up.

[Djstorm100]

it's cheaper (and safer) to buy. you need tools (some proprietary to a single component), knowledge and experience - especially for an accurate rifle.

there's only 2 advantages to building it yourself:
1. you can get exactly the components you want (but it's easy to be too smart for your own good there (ask me how i know))
2. you can spread the cost out over time - if you've got the patience.

so, anyone who can change a tire can assemble an AR. but having one built right, by a craftsman, has value beyond whatever savings might appear to be gained.

the pricing game is kinda fun. go to rainier arms, price one of their complete ultramatch uppers, then price the components (i suggest them because it's straight forward to figure out their BoM). then add in tools, etc. and see where you end up.

For a battle rifle I feel like I could do it no problem. Now for a accurate ar being for a first build I don't think that would be smart idea. What about buying upper...throwing a lower on it shooting the heck out of it. Then building one and seeing how it shoots compare to the bought upper?

Any good books/videos one can get to get more info on the "secrets" of building a SPR/ "long range" ar platform? I'm wanting one for precision classes and if I ever had to take something or someone down at a longer range.

[High Tower]

Has Centurion always been top tier? (DD,BCM,LMT, Novseke)




Yes. Monty and crew do a phenominal job and source the same parts that are used in the mil MK12. I have their mk12 upper and have never been disappointed.

[Boba Fett v2]

I've considered building a Mark 12 SPR clone myself, but ultimately decided to put the plans on hold indefinitely. If I were to buy just the upper I'd consider going through High Caliber Sales (http://highcalibersales.com/) or BCM (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SPR-Mk-12-Upper-Receiver-Half-Groups-s/131.htm). Sourcing an actual NF 2.5-10x24 might prove challenging though.

[Djstorm100]

I've considered building a Mark 12 SPR clone myself, but ultimately decided to put the plans on hold indefinitely. If I were to buy just the upper I'd consider going through High Caliber Sales (http://highcalibersales.com/) or BCM (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SPR-Mk-12-Upper-Receiver-Half-Groups-s/131.htm). Sourcing an actual NF 2.5-10x24 might prove challenging though.

This is the one I have been eying for a while http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SPR-Mk-12-Mod-Bravo2X-p/bcm-urg-mk12-2x%20lt13.htm. With a KAC QD Muzzle Compensator Kit

[col.1981]

This is the one I have been eying for a while http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SPR-Mk-12-Mod-Bravo2X-p/bcm-urg-mk12-2x%20lt13.htm. With a KAC QD Muzzle Compensator Kit

I'm sure that's a great upper. I've never been let down by any BCM upper. Having said that you can get a Larue Stealth URG (includes a BCG/CH) for cheaper and it has a better upper receiver. But you might have a little wait time.

[Djstorm100]

I'm sure that's a great upper. I've never been let down by any BCM upper. Having said that you can get a Larue Stealth URG (includes a BCG/CH) for cheaper and it has a better upper receiver. But you might have a little wait time.

That is true I was looking at them earlier today. The thing is as well the front handguard would be swapped out for a troy for weight saving and I need ambi charging handle (raptor) b/c I'm a lefty.

how is the upper receiver better?

[ericl]

Achieving 2-4" groups at 400-500 yards is a tall order for an AR platform in 5.56mm. I am sure there are going to be many that say they achieve this, and that may be so. However, that is stretching the platform/ammo combination to the EXTREME at that distance. Even Monty LeClaire of Centurion Arms (also bud of Mr. Vickers and top notch SEAL sniper) stated on a Tac-TV episode about the SPR that it isn't a solid 1MOA rifle. I believe he said that is more of a "marketing" thing. While I own and have seen many AR platforms in 5.56 achieve tiny groups (1" and less) at 100 yards, 1" at 100 doesn't always equal 2"/200yds, 3"/300yds, etc. I have read reports (footnote here, READ them/not seen this or experienced myself) the LaRue OBR being capable of great feats of accuracy you desire, but again that is a true stretch. For that range, one might want to consider going to a .308. I have also SEEN great accuracy from 6.5 Grendel and Creedmore rounds. Just my .02, good luck. If you consistently achieve what you are after with an AR in 5.56, let me know the secret!

[Djstorm100]

Achieving 2-4" groups at 400-500 yards is a tall order for an AR platform in 5.56mm. I am sure there are going to be many that say they achieve this, and that may be so. However, that is stretching the platform/ammo combination to the EXTREME at that distance. Even Monty LeClaire of Centurion Arms (also bud of Mr. Vickers and top notch SEAL sniper) stated on a Tac-TV episode about the SPR that it isn't a solid 1MOA rifle. I believe he said that is more of a "marketing" thing. While I own and have seen many AR platforms in 5.56 achieve tiny groups (1" and less) at 100 yards, 1" at 100 doesn't always equal 2"/200yds, 3"/300yds, etc. I have read reports (footnote here, READ them/not seen this or experienced myself) the LaRue OBR being capable of great feats of accuracy you desire, but again that is a true stretch. For that range, one might want to consider going to a .308. I have also SEEN great accuracy from 6.5 Grendel and Creedmore rounds. Just my .02, good luck. If you consistently achieve what you are after with an AR in 5.56, let me know the secret!

2" was being very over optimistic to say the least lol. I've just got a inch to build another AR but don't want another 16incher and can't find anything SBR ugh. lol

[ericl]

I understand the quest for accuracy. I myself am constantly doing the same. I always want to squeeze the maximum accuracy out of even my most basic patrol rifles. While stainless steel barrels are obviously the norm for the SPR builds (no chrome lining which tends to be inconsistent, hence, less accurate), I have been looking at some salt-bath-nitride (aka Melonite / commercial name) options. One can get an awesome CHF 4150 barrel, with the above mentioned treatments. Reports say one gets all the accuracy as well as greater barrel life than that of CL or stainless! Of course, I am going to have to find out for myself (an excuse to build/buy another rifle).

[col.1981]

That is true I was looking at them earlier today. The thing is as well the front handguard would be swapped out for a troy for weight saving and I need ambi charging handle (raptor) b/c I'm a lefty.

how is the upper receiver better?

Trying to save weight on a SPR? Saving weight in general is fine but is it a SPR or LW build? Consider the trade offs.

From the Larue Tactical website...
"The LaRue Stealth receiver is an improved-version of the currently fielded mil-spec flat-top receiver. Machined from billet 7075-T6, the Stealth is designed with more of material in critical areas to alleviate past issues of weakness and to stiffen the receiver, maximizing the weapons overall accuracy."

[RyanB]

Geissele MK4. (https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3846)

Rainier Arms Ultramatch Barrel. (https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=809)

I'd build it around these parts. No point carrying the length and weight of the traditional SPR.

[TurretGunner]

I've considered building a Mark 12 SPR clone myself, but ultimately decided to put the plans on hold indefinitely. If I were to buy just the upper I'd consider going through High Caliber Sales (http://highcalibersales.com/) or BCM (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SPR-Mk-12-Upper-Receiver-Half-Groups-s/131.htm). Sourcing an actual NF 2.5-10x24 might prove challenging though.

Nope they are out there, just $$$

I was offered a Army Recon version for $1800, and just couldnt pull the trigger. Love the optic, but thats way over what I consider it's value. Could pick up a Razor HD for that kind of money.

[TurretGunner]

Geissele MK4. (https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3846)

Rainier Arms Ultramatch Barrel. (https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=809)

I'd build it around these parts. No point carrying the length and weight of the traditional SPR.

No, the ultramatch is anything but. Many guys have built on them , and they are nothing special. Many have gone back to Rainer.

As far as barrles go, nothing will even come close to WOA for value. They simply shoot, and the price cannot be beat. Ive built SPR's withLija's, CLE-Kriegers, Noveske's, and WOA, and to be honest, WOA did not lose a step. I did get a little more fps out of the Noveske, and the intermediate gas system is a little smoother, but not $350 better.


You need to decide if you want to build a clone, or a SPR type rifle.

Mod 0 and 1's will be expensive to build. They use ARMS parts, which I refuse to put on any rifle I own. The PRI rail is expesnive, heavy and dated. To be honest, both are very dated designs, and much better products that are lighter are on the market now.

If I was buiding a SPR type rifle, I would go with a WOA SPR barrel, Fortis 14" rail/ Geiselle/URX , Geiselle DMR/SSA, and a SOPMOD or Bravo stock. Top it off with either the Vortex 2.5-10x32 or the SS 3-15 (best DMR type scopes under $1500). Both are FFP and mil/mil in a NON qd mount like the Badger 1 piece or KAC 1 piece. QD mounts have no place on precision rifles. Throw an atlas bipod with either ADM or Larue QD and quality brake/comp ..............now your talking.

This will result in a light, very high quality rifle for the money, that will shoot as good as you and the ammo you feed it.

[Djstorm100]

No, the ultramatch is anything but. Many guys have built on them , and they are nothing special. Many have gone back to Rainer.

As far as barrles go, nothing will even come close to WOA for value. They simply shoot, and the price cannot be beat. Ive built SPR's withLija's, CLE-Kriegers, Noveske's, and WOA, and to be honest, WOA did not lose a step. I did get a little more fps out of the Noveske, and the intermediate gas system is a little smoother, but not $350 better.


You need to decide if you want to build a clone, or a SPR type rifle.

Mod 0 and 1's will be expensive to build. They use ARMS parts, which I refuse to put on any rifle I own. The PRI rail is expesnive, heavy and dated. To be honest, both are very dated designs, and much better products that are lighter are on the market now.

If I was buiding a SPR type rifle, I would go with a WOA SPR barrel, Fortis 14" rail/ Geiselle/URX , Geiselle DMR/SSA, and a SOPMOD or Bravo stock. Top it off with either the Vortex 2.5-10x32 or the SS 3-15 (best DMR type scopes under $1500). Both are FFP and mil/mil in a NON qd mount like the Badger 1 piece or KAC 1 piece. QD mounts have no place on precision rifles. Throw an atlas bipod with either ADM or Larue QD and quality brake/comp ..............now your talking.

This will result in a light, very high quality rifle for the money, that will shoot as good as you and the ammo you feed it.

The more I research over the past few days. Def not going to be a clone. Why pay for outdated parts (some are like you said) when one can get nicer/high quality parts. This is going ot be a SPR "concept"


Lower will be for the moment my DD. Then Barnes/BCM/DD/OTT (other top teir) Etc.
LPK DD/BCM/Barnes
Rainer Rapter Charging handle (I'm a lefty)
Troy ambi mag release
Bad-ass ambi safety
BCM grip
DD/BCM BCG
WOA SPR SS rifle (will cerakote/other paint effect accuracy?
Looking at Troy Aplah rail (something 13 inches that is light but tough)
Low pro-gas blockBCM/DD/ OTT


As for gas system toss up between a mid and rifle. If I use a rifle can I use a carbine spring? Reason I ask was I read that some Magpul stocks don't accept rifle springs and buffers and only carbine.

[TurretGunner]

The more I research over the past few days. Def not going to be a clone. Why pay for outdated parts (some are like you said) when one can get nicer/high quality parts. This is going ot be a SPR "concept"


Lower will be for the moment my DD. Then Barnes/BCM/DD/OTT (other top teir) Etc.
LPK DD/BCM/Barnes
Rainer Rapter Charging handle (I'm a lefty)
Troy ambi mag release
Bad-ass ambi safety
BCM grip
DD/BCM BCG
WOA SPR SS rifle (will cerakote/other paint effect accuracy?
Looking at Troy Aplah rail (something 13 inches that is light but tough)
Low pro-gas blockBCM/DD/ OTT


As for gas system toss up between a mid and rifle. If I use a rifle can I use a carbine spring? Reason I ask was I read that some Magpul stocks don't accept rifle springs and buffers and only carbine.

If you want light, than Fortis. It is also very economical.

The gas system is rifle, not the tube. You can use a carbine tube with a rifle or intermediate system. I would stay away from magpul stocks not named PRS. SOPMOD/Bravo is a much better stock than magpull's lineup and lends itself to precision shooting, while not being huge or too heavy. Add https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3656 and then you are cooking with gasoline.

[Alex V]

Has Centruion always been top tier? (DD,BCM,LMT, Novseke)


On another note here is the barrel I would be looking at for the build. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17567&cat=250&page=2

I could be wrong, but I think Centurion has always been top notch for an SPR clone.

Personally I went with a Noveske 18" barrel for my build, but my rifle only shares the rudimentary/basic formula with the real SPR [bbl length, free float hg, match trigger, NF 2.5-10]. The Centurion, PRI and High Caliber seem to be as close to a clone as one could get... I think...

I have an empty A2 lower sitting around and have been looking to get a true Mk12 Mod0 clone. But the inability to have the OPS 12th Model brake/collar in NJ already shoots the "clone" idea to shit.

[TurretGunner]

I could be wrong, but I think Centurion has always been top notch for an SPR clone.

Personally I went with a Noveske 18" barrel for my build, but my rifle only shares the rudimentary/basic formula with the real SPR [bbl length, free float hg, match trigger, NF 2.5-10]. The Centurion, PRI and High Caliber seem to be as close to a clone as one could get... I think...

I have an empty A2 lower sitting around and have been looking to get a true Mk12 Mod0 clone. But the inability to have the OPS 12th Model brake/collar in NJ already shoots the "clone" idea to shit.

None of those are "top Teir" barrel makers with the exception of maybe Noveske, when he used to use Lija Blanks for his barrels (no idea now).

Read the PRI article, and get a chuckle. They talk about the biggest mistake made on the MK12, was going away from PRI. What a bunch of narrasistic bullshit. Its been 10 years and PRI still hasnt made anything new........they seem to follow ARMS business model.

A precision AR always starts with the barrel. You should build the gun around that.

The REAL SPR also did not use the Nightforce untill later into its life cycle. They used Leupy 3.5-10's. The current 2.5-10x32 is a good optic, but not $1500 good. The Vortex and SS 3-15 are 99% of that optic at 50% of the price. They also used the Origional KAC 2 stage, which was generally considered a piece of shit and unreliable. Thats how Giessele broke into the military market. He was making his Hi Speed trigger for High power shooters, and then designed the DMR for the MK12/MK11 as guys were replacing the KAC 2S with it. Whatever KAC did to their trigger design however, the Newer KAC 2 Stage is the SHIT. It is every bit as good as any Geiselle triggers I have shot/owned.

[Djstorm100]

None of those are "top Teir" barrel makers with the exception of maybe Noveske, when he used to use Lija Blanks for his barrels (no idea now).

Read the PRI article, and get a chuckle. They talk about the biggest mistake made on the MK12, was going away from PRI. What a bunch of narrasistic bullshit. Its been 10 years and PRI still hasnt made anything new........they seem to follow ARMS business model.

A precision AR always starts with the barrel. You should build the gun around that.

The REAL SPR also did not use the Nightforce untill later into its life cycle. They used Leupy 3.5-10's. The current 2.5-10x32 is a good optic, but not $1500 good. The Vortex and SS 3-15 are 99% of that optic at 50% of the price. They also used the Origional KAC 2 stage, which was generally considered a piece of shit and unreliable. Thats how Giessele broke into the military market. He was making his Hi Speed trigger for High power shooters, and then designed the DMR for the MK12/MK11 as guys were replacing the KAC 2S with it. Whatever KAC did to their trigger design however, the Newer KAC 2 Stage is the SHIT. It is every bit as good as any Geiselle triggers I have shot/owned.

Thanks Turrent Gunner for the info!

[ALCOAR]

QD mounts have no place on precision rifles.


Do you have any idea how many people use ADM, Larue, GDI, Bobro QD mounts on precision rifles? I'm guessing not.


I would stay away from magpul stocks not named PRS. SOPMOD/Bravo is a much better stock than magpull's lineup and lends itself to precision shooting, while not being huge or too heavy.

Have you ever shot the SOPMOD/Bravo from prone position in a precision capacity? I guessing if so, not much at all.

It's one of the worst stocks, or most difficult one to master in prone position as you continually find yourself hitting the adjustment lever if your properly using your hand in the rear.

The UBR is one of the finest precision stocks made for the AR FOW. The ACS, and STR models have a nice toe on them, and protected levers that make them much more ideal for prone shooting...i.e. a precision rifle's primary position.


The current 2.5-10x32 is a good optic, but not $1500 good. The Vortex and SS 3-15 are 99% of that optic at 50% of the price.

You can't be serious saying a Vortex/SS is 99% of a NXSc. That's just crazy!

[Djstorm100]

Do you have any idea how many people use ADM, Larue, GDI, Bobro QD mounts on precision rifles? I'm guessing not.



Have you ever shot the SOPMOD/Bravo from prone position in a precision capacity? I guessing if so, not much at all.

It's one of the worst stocks, or most difficult one to master in prone position as you continually find yourself hitting the adjustment lever if your properly using your hand in the rear.

The UBR is one of the finest precision stocks made for the AR FOW. The ACS, and STR models have a nice toe on them, and protected levers that make them much more ideal for prone shooting...i.e. a precision rifle's primary position.



You can't be serious saying a Vortex/SS is 99% of a NXSc. That's just crazy!

I can say being 25 yr. My pockets do not go deep enough for a NX...I had planned on a vortex in the 700-800 market probably. May not be AS good as NX but good enough for me. I appreciate all the help in this.

[TurretGunner]

Do you have any idea how many people use ADM, Larue, GDI, Bobro QD mounts on precision rifles? I'm guessing not.



Have you ever shot the SOPMOD/Bravo from prone position in a precision capacity? I guessing if so, not much at all.

It's one of the worst stocks, or most difficult one to master in prone position as you continually find yourself hitting the adjustment lever if your properly using your hand in the rear.

The UBR is one of the finest precision stocks made for the AR FOW. The ACS, and STR models have a nice toe on them, and protected levers that make them much more ideal for prone shooting...i.e. a precision rifle's primary position.



You can't be serious saying a Vortex/SS is 99% of a NXSc. That's just crazy!

Trident,

Ive owned them ALL with the exception of GDI. I stand by my statement, They will all exibit POI shift.......some more than others. I have found Bobro to have the Least, and from people I respect, they claim that GDI is also on par with Bobro. With that being said, I still don't run QD on any precision rigs. Badger 1 peice or KAC 1 Piece. We can debate the merits and designs of each QD, but thats for another thread. Anyone serious about LR and precision does not use a QD mount, unless they HAVE to. Acogs, 1-4/6x, Elcans and RDS aren't precision.

I have also run the SOPMOD for the last 10 years on just about all of my AR's. They are on my MK12, .308 AR's and on my KAC guns. I find it to give the best cheek weld and the most comfortable outside of the PRS (which is a pig). It has a nice flat surface that can be built up if need be and plenty of surface area to work with.

Please explain to me how the Vortex is so inferior to the NXS? Ill give nightforce has a better zero stop and argueably a slight edge in the reliability/durrability department. The Glass in the Vortex is AS good if not better than NF and the MIL reticle is IMO, a better one than the 10 or whatever NF offers. It also has the best, no questions asked warranty in the optics world. NF will dick around with warrantee work, Vortex will have you a replacement by the end of the week.
Have you even shot the 2.5-10x32 Vortex? Its one hell of an optic. Also, who the hell wants a SFP scope in a precision/dmr/sniper role? That ship sailed 10 years ago. The 2.5-10x24 was one hell of a scope for it's size, but like idiots, NF decided to pull that from consumer market. They can go **** themselves with their overpriced, old technolgy. Their old prices were a good value, Now there is better for less (Bushnell HDMR/G2DMR, New Leupy, Razor HD, SWFA 5-20,ect) For the price of a F1 or their latest offering I can get a Khales or S&B.......its not even a choice.

[Alex V]

None of those are "top Teir" barrel makers with the exception of maybe Noveske, when he used to use Lija Blanks for his barrels (no idea now).

Read the PRI article, and get a chuckle. They talk about the biggest mistake made on the MK12, was going away from PRI. What a bunch of narrasistic bullshit. Its been 10 years and PRI still hasnt made anything new........they seem to follow ARMS business model.

A precision AR always starts with the barrel. You should build the gun around that.

The REAL SPR also did not use the Nightforce untill later into its life cycle. They used Leupy 3.5-10's. The current 2.5-10x32 is a good optic, but not $1500 good. The Vortex and SS 3-15 are 99% of that optic at 50% of the price. They also used the Origional KAC 2 stage, which was generally considered a piece of shit and unreliable. Thats how Giessele broke into the military market. He was making his Hi Speed trigger for High power shooters, and then designed the DMR for the MK12/MK11 as guys were replacing the KAC 2S with it. Whatever KAC did to their trigger design however, the Newer KAC 2 Stage is the SHIT. It is every bit as good as any Geiselle triggers I have shot/owned.

Quote from Centurian arms Mk12 barrel page;

These barrels come from the same machines and the same people who make the military MK12 barrels for the Special Operations community.

taken w/ a grain of salt, but I see no gain in it for Monte to lie. Or LAV for that matter.

High Caliber Sales advertise the use of Douglas barrels.

PRI might have a lot of self serving BS in the article, but they advertises the use of Douglas barrels as well.

They all could be full of poop, but if they are not, the barrels are G2G.

Like I said, my SPR-ish rifle is built around a Noveske barrel, but I would have no reservations in using Centurian or the Douglas barrels that PRI and HCS claim to be using.

The NF 2.5-10 is an awesome optic, I have no complaints.

[TurretGunner]

Quote from Centurian arms Mk12 barrel page;

These barrels come from the same machines and the same people who make the military MK12 barrels for the Special Operations community.

taken w/ a grain of salt, but I see no gain in it for Monte to lie. Or LAV for that matter.

High Caliber Sales advertise the use of Douglas barrels.

PRI might have a lot of self serving BS in the article, but they advertises the use of Douglas barrels as well.

They all could be full of poop, but if they are not, the barrels are G2G.

Like I said, my SPR-ish rifle is built around a Noveske barrel, but I would have no reservations in using Centurian or the Douglas barrels that PRI and HCS claim to be using.

The NF 2.5-10 is an awesome optic, I have no complaints.

There is nothing wrong with a Douglas or Noveskee barrel. They are good shooters. But they are not Kriegers, Bartlien, ect. There is a reason those tubes sell for $$$ and guys who shoot LR use them . For a mK12 shooting blue box 75/77GR, I don't think you will notice much of a difference.

The Mod 0/1's also used ARMS #22 rings, does that mean they are the best product for that rifle? The same can be argued for any componet. Unless your building a clone, there is no reason to not use better parts, and that includes the barrel. WOA is every bit the shooter that the Douglas or CLE is, at half the price. It is also already profiled for the Ops inc brake, if you go down that rabbit hole.

Which 2.5-10 are u talking about? There are 3, and none of them are FFP. Once you go FFP and Mil/Mil you never go back.

[Alex V]

Trident,

Ive owned them ALL with the exception of GDI. I stand by my statement, They will all exibit POI shift.......some more than others. I have found Bobro to have the Least, and from people I respect, they claim that GDI is also on par with Bobro. With that being said, I still don't run QD on any precision rigs. Badger 1 peice or KAC 1 Piece. We can debate the merits and designs of each QD, but thats for another thread. Anyone serious about LR and precision does not use a QD mount, unless they HAVE to. Acogs, 1-4/6x, Elcans and RDS aren't precision.

I have also run the SOPMOD for the last 10 years on just about all of my AR's. They are on my MK12, .308 AR's and on my KAC guns. I find it to give the best cheek weld and the most comfortable outside of the PRS (which is a pig). It has a nice flat surface that can be built up if need be and plenty of surface area to work with.

Please explain to me how the Vortex is so inferior to the NXS? Ill give nightforce has a better zero stop and argueably a slight edge in the reliability/durrability department. The Glass in the Vortex is AS good if not better than NF and the MIL reticle is IMO, a better one than the 10 or whatever NF offers. It also has the best, no questions asked warranty in the optics world. NF will dick around with warrantee work, Vortex will have you a replacement by the end of the week.
Have you even shot the 2.5-10x32 Vortex? Its one hell of an optic. Also, who the hell wants a SFP scope in a precision/dmr/sniper role? That ship sailed 10 years ago. The 2.5-10x24 was one hell of a scope for it's size, but like idiots, NF decided to pull that from consumer market. They can go **** themselves with their overpriced, old technolgy. Their old prices were a good value, Now there is better for less (Bushnell HDMR/G2DMR, New Leupy, Razor HD, SWFA 5-20,ect) For the price of a F1 or their latest offering I can get a Khales or S&B.......its not even a choice.

I have to disagree once again.

The 3-15 F1 is roughly 2.5K where as the S&B 3-12 is $3.5K. The S&B WILL have better glass, but it not the same price.

Kahles does not offer the equivalent of the K624i in a lower power model, not that I am aware of.

Steiner and Premier are also awesome scopes and have better glass than the NF F1 but are still $500 more than the F1 for their 3-15ish offerings.

The NF BEAST costs as much as the S&B PM2 5-25 and is reported to have the same/similar quality glass.

Vortex make good optics for sure, but they are not as reliable as NF.

A SFP scope in a lower power is perfectly serviceable and is not "old tech." Would I want a SFP scope in the 5-25 range? No, I don't believe so. But in the 2.5-10 or 3-15 range the reticle may be unusable for milling in the lower power range on a FFP scope anyway. I say "may" because I have not had the chance to spend time behind a "low" powered FFP scope with a Mil-Dot or similar mil based reticle, I have only seen the 5-25 type guys because that is what I am in the market for now.

[Alex V]

There is nothing wrong with a Douglas or Noveskee barrel. They are good shooters. But they are not Kriegers, Bartlien, ect. There is a reason those tubes sell for $$$ and guys who shoot LR use them . For a mK12 shooting blue box 75/77GR, I don't think you will notice much of a difference.

The Mod 0/1's also used ARMS #22 rings, does that mean they are the best product for that rifle? The same can be argued for any componet. Unless your building a clone, there is no reason to not use better parts, and that includes the barrel. WOA is every bit the shooter that the Douglas or CLE is, at half the price. It is also already profiled for the Ops inc brake, if you go down that rabbit hole.

Which 2.5-10 are u talking about? There are 3, and none of them are FFP. Once you go FFP and Mil/Mil you never go back.

No one is saying they are the best barrels, just saying they are not crap as, I believe, your "not top tier" comment alluded to.

I have the x32 because I got an awesome deal on it here. Yes, there are the x20, x32 and x42 now. I see the x20's up for sale on the Hide on the regular basis, so its not the end of the world to snag one.

Though I do not have a Douglass barreled rifle I am sure it can produce sub MOA accuracy. As would the Krieger et al's but I doubt you would see a drastic difference in accuracy between the two with any ammo. It is still a 5.56 AR platform. Maybe one is .75moa with the other being .5moa, but its not like comparing a 3moa barrel to a .5moa one.

Going back to your knock on some optic mounts, I have LaRue mounts on my "SPR" and RDS equipped carbines. They have been on and off numerous times for cleaning and not one has displayed a determinable POI shift. Survey of 1 on I know, but just my experience, which is why I will continue to use LaRue QD mounts. If I use a non QD mount, I imagine that I would use SPUHR.

[TurretGunner]

I have to disagree once again.

The 3-15 F1 is roughly 2.5K where as the S&B 3-12 is $3.5K. The S&B WILL have better glass, but it not the same price.

Kahles does not offer the equivalent of the K624i in a lower power model, not that I am aware of.

Steiner and Premier are also awesome scopes and have better glass than the NF F1 but are still $500 more than the F1 for their 3-15ish offerings.

The NF BEAST costs as much as the S&B PM2 5-25 and is reported to have the same/similar quality glass.

Vortex make good optics for sure, but they are not as reliable as NF.

A SFP scope in a lower power is perfectly serviceable and is not "old tech." Would I want a SFP scope in the 5-25 range? No, I don't believe so. But in the 2.5-10 or 3-15 range the reticle may be unusable for milling in the lower power range on a FFP scope anyway. I say "may" because I have not had the chance to spend time behind a "low" powered FFP scope with a Mil-Dot or similar mil based reticle, I have only seen the 5-25 type guys because that is what I am in the market for now.

The Bushnell is a better scope than the F1, at a much lower price. It has better features, good (not fantastic) glass, tracks well, Fantastic Reticle in the G2 (and Horus if thats your thing), and good size. The Razor(5-20) and the Stiener(3-12 AND 4-16) are also better optics at a cheaper price. NF glass is not the greatest.

There is a reason no one in/almost no one in the PRS shoots nightforce glass. You will see mostly S&B and Premier with some Bushy's, Khales, and a good amount of Razors. NF has IMO, priced them selves out of a market segment and price range they use to dominate.

A 624I can be found in the $2500 range, and is a vastly superior scope to the F1.

For a 1-4 SFP is acceptable as you are most likley only using it on 1x or 4x. There is a reason all the top 1-6/6.5/8 optics are FFP.

[TurretGunner]

No one is saying they are the best barrels, just saying they are not crap as, I believe, your "not top tier" comment alluded to.

I have the x32 because I got an awesome deal on it here. Yes, there are the x20, x32 and x42 now. I see the x20's up for sale on the Hide on the regular basis, so its not the end of the world to snag one.

Though I do not have a Douglass barreled rifle I am sure it can produce sub MOA accuracy. As would the Krieger et al's but I doubt you would see a drastic difference in accuracy between the two with any ammo. It is still a 5.56 AR platform. Maybe one is .75moa with the other being .5moa, but its not like comparing a 3moa barrel to a .5moa one.

Going back to your knock on some optic mounts, I have LaRue mounts on my "SPR" and RDS equipped carbines. They have been on and off numerous times for cleaning and not one has displayed a determinable POI shift. Survey of 1 on I know, but just my experience, which is why I will continue to use LaRue QD mounts. If I use a non QD mount, I imagine that I would use SPUHR.

I never said they were crap. For almost all shooters and for military applications they are fine. But they are still not "top tier" or whatever you want to call it.

Want to guess what barrels Gap uses in their GAP10? Want to guess what the AMU Highpower team and many other use? Bartlien , and then Krieger. JP barrels shoot too, but I'm not possitive to makes them (wilson or Lija)

You will not notice POI shift with a RDS or a non precision optic like an ACOG. It is there.

Out of all the QD mounts, Larue is argubly the worst for a multitude of reasons. Even ADM has a better lockup than Larue's antiquidated design.

You may not be able to tell the difference, but people shooting for score or running dedicated systems do. Wonder why the MK11/M110,M24, M40,ect don't use QD mounts/rings? Don't you think they would love to be able to switch out optics easy without tools for different missions? KAC can't make their 1 piece fast enough, and its dam near $350. That's why I shoot badger. Everything the KAC is, made by the best mount compnay in the world, and still under $200 for 30/34MM with built in slope.

[Djstorm100]

Out of all the QD mounts, Larue is argubly the worst for a multitude of reasons. Even ADM has a better lockup than Larue's antiquidated design.

You may not be able to tell the difference, but people shooting for score or running dedicated systems do. Wonder why the MK11/M110,M24, M40,ect don't use QD mounts/rings? Don't you think they would love to be able to switch out optics easy without tools for different missions? KAC can't make their 1 piece fast enough, and its dam near $350. That's why I shoot badger. Everything the KAC is, made by the best mount compnay in the world, and still under $200 for 30/34MM with built in slope.
Why is the Laure so bad? I run one on my DDV5 and T-1

[TurretGunner]

Why is the Laure so bad? I run one on my DDV5 and T-1

Its been beaten to death but Long story short, its an inferior mount/lockup system that will jack up your rails, and needs a tool to adjust it.

Bobro is a superior mount in almost every way. Ive heard good things about GDI, but no hands on.

[Djstorm100]

Its been beaten to death but Long story short, its an inferior mount/lockup system that will jack up your rails, and needs a tool to adjust it.

Bobro is a superior mount in almost every way. Ive heard good things about GDI, but no hands on.

Ah I did a quick good search but didn't really yield anything worth mentioning. I'll continue the search.

[ForTehNguyen]

BCM has some MK12 uppers in stock

[Djstorm100]

BCM has some MK12 uppers in stock

Yes only 2 I do believe.

[Alex V]

You will not notice POI shift with a RDS or a non precision optic like an ACOG. It is there.



no POI shift on my NF2.5-10 with a LaRue mount. Been on and off at least half a dozen times.

As for your other points, I don't believe the Bushnell is as good as the NF, but to each his own, we can argue this 'till we are blue in the face.

I know the Kahles 624i can be had for $2500. I almost bought one with a Mil6 reticle for $2250 on The Hide, I was referring to retail pricing. One can have a NF F1 MLR2 for $1800 as well.