View Full Version : Troy Industries hires Anti-Gunner. UPDATE Lon Horiuchi's partner on the payroll too.
Nightvisionary
08-21-13, 07:57
Troy has hired rabid anti-gunner and former Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weiss. Weiss has proposed the outright ban of most of the products Troy Industries manufactures. He also ordered finger printing and registration of all hand gun owners in Chicago after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down Chicago's handgun ban.
Over the past year I have purchased Troy gas blocks, rails, and magazines. They won't see another dime of my money. Shame on you Troy :nono:
Update page 6. Ruby Ridge sniper also on Troy's payroll.
http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8842
http://troyasymmetric.com/jody-weis-troy-asymmetric-instructor/
http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/18027264-452/jody-weis-we-need-gun-laws-that-make-sense.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/12/jody-weis-chicago-police_n_643702.html
Im with you, never buying another troy product again.
Should replace the Troy rail on my wife's rifle with something else lol.
Grand58742
08-21-13, 08:43
Any worse than HS Precision hiring Lon Horiuchi to endorse their products?
Geez, who's bright idea was this? What next? Obama as CEO of Colt? Biden running Mossberg?
Biden running Mossberg?
Why is it I can picture this? Maybe its Biden's ludicrous comments and Mossberg's ludicrous chainsaw. :help:
-Jax
Interestingly enough his page is now gone.
.46caliber
08-21-13, 11:26
Lol - 404 error
Was Weis hired to properly stake the carrier keys?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
theblackknight
08-21-13, 11:56
This rail is better anyways
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/ed0390c7e9350fab363370ca69dec08b.jpg
How does this even happen anyways?
lethal dose
08-21-13, 12:03
100% agreed. Will be following this one.
Why the hell would they do that?
Yea seriously, why did they even hire the guy? This makes no sense at all... What roll in the company will he play?
Just posted a few mins ago on their fbook page
Troy Supports the Second Amendment and its Customers
Troy Industries is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. In recent months, we have been more vocal about our beliefs, choosing to align ourselves with companies and individuals who are like-minded.
In response to the reaction of our customer base, Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.
We value the thoughts and concerns of our loyal customers. Troy Industries and its affiliated companies are strong supporters of the Second Amendment and will continue to promote this right through our products, statements, actions and affiliations.
Grease Monkey
08-21-13, 13:04
That's nice and all but what were they thinking!?! Did they expect a positive reaction? Really?
Doc Safari
08-21-13, 13:07
That's nice and all but what were they thinking!?! Did they expect a positive reaction? Really?
Anyone can make a mistake. I'm pleased to see the power of the internet once again called upon to Zumbo an enemy of the cause.
Nightvisionary
08-21-13, 13:12
This rail is better anyways
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/ed0390c7e9350fab363370ca69dec08b.jpg
How does this even happen anyways?
I concur. I have mounted two Rainier/Samson Evolution rails and one Troy Alpha. The Evolution is a slightly better design. No more Troy products for me.
Belmont31R
08-21-13, 13:13
Anyone can make a mistake. I'm pleased to see the power of the internet once again called upon to Zumbo an enemy of the cause.
That's one hell of a mistake especially given the last 10 months of turmoil politically in regards to firearms rights.
Any worse than HS Precision hiring Lon Horiuchi to endorse their products?
Not really, but I think it was probably pretty easy for everyone to stop buying HS products.
I see a Zumboing in Troys future. Why they didn't know better is beyond me.
Grease Monkey
08-21-13, 13:15
Anyone can make a mistake. I'm pleased to see the power of the internet once again called upon to Zumbo an enemy of the cause.
Sure but, they had to know who he was. That being said, you gotta wonder what the hell they were thinking, their "loyal customers" weren't going to notice? If they're such true 2A supporters as they claim, they would have told the guy to get bent.
Maybe the guy in charge at HR didn't look into the guys history a whole lot?
This makes no sense. They really didn't think there would be backlash to hiring this guy? I don't know about that...
In response to the reaction of our customer base, Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.
That was fast.
Maybe this will help serve as a wake up call that if you are "anti gun" there will be no place in the gun community later when you come seeking employment.
Maybe the guy in charge at HR didn't look into the guys history a whole lot?
More than likely this is the case. Looked at Credentials and not media reports about the guy. An easy mistake to make but a potentially costly one.
Doc Safari
08-21-13, 13:20
That's one hell of a mistake especially given the last 10 months of turmoil politically in regards to firearms rights.
Agreed. But I'm guessing that with the demand for all things firearms related it's possible that somebody didn't take the time to do some homework. Just trying to give the benefit of the doubt.
I could be mistaken but I don't think he's as famous as Horiuchi.
Agreed. But I'm guessing that with the demand for all things firearms related it's possible that somebody didn't take the time to do some homework. Just trying to give the benefit of the doubt.
Most likely. But google is pretty retard proof.
theblackknight
08-21-13, 13:23
I would like to remind people: Donate to the FNRA and support youth shooting sports programs.
Sure but, they had to know who he was. That being said, you gotta wonder what the hell they were thinking, their "loyal customers" weren't going to notice? If they're such true 2A supporters as they claim, they would have told the guy to get bent.
I'm sure it has cost them some "line in the sand" customers who will never come back. As for me, they ****ed up but they fixed it.
I'm generally pretty forgiving of "**** ups" so long as the person makes it right and fixes it. I could imagine a few scenarios where somebody didn't take the time to investigate his past political decisions and they learned the hard way to check things out a bit more fully.
Maybe Troy and all the other respectable firearm manufacturers need to create a job where somebody like me does "political clearance" background investigations for all new hires.
Belmont31R
08-21-13, 13:24
Maybe the guy in charge at HR didn't look into the guys history a whole lot?
I doubt 'HR' is hiring instructors over there.
This guy has written articles even after he retired calling for gun control. I don't see how its possible for them to hire this guy who wants to ban the very products they make, and just brush it off as a mistake.
I would like to remind people: Donate to the FNRA and support youth shooting sports programs.
I'd rather give my money to the NRA-ILA.
I doubt 'HR' is hiring instructors over there.
This guy has written articles even after he retired calling for gun control. I don't see how its possible for them to hire this guy who wants to ban the very products they make, and just brush it off as a mistake.
Without any additional evidence to the contrary, I'm gonna accept the "shit happens" scenario. If you want to retain your "Bullshit, I ain't buying it" posture, I completely understand.
Doc Safari
08-21-13, 13:31
I have to concur that this is an error of pure carelessness. I think the term "noboby could be that stupid" applies here.
Was busy looking for a "slap yourself in the forehead" a la the "could've had a V8" commercials to cover this...
Just can't see an "anti-gun" company mistakenly hiring a pro-gun person "by mistake".
Anyway, glad they fixed it. I'm picturing him getting thrown out a big picture window onto the sidewalk to make myself feel better about the whole thing.
Nightvisionary
08-21-13, 14:06
Most likely. But google is pretty retard proof.
Exactly. I found the three articles in my OP in less than 90 seconds.
Either Troy knew and brought him on board anyway in hopes of using his Chicago/Daly/Obama government contacts to gain lucrative government contracts (seems the more likely scenario) or their vetting process for instructors is so poor that they did not bother to perform the most basic background process. If that's the case then that throws the quality of their training program into question. In either case it reflects poorly on Troy Industries as a company.
Doc Safari
08-21-13, 14:15
Exactly. I found the three articles in my OP in less than 90 seconds.
Either Troy knew and brought him on board anyway in hopes of using his Chicago/Daly/Obama government contacts to gain lucrative government contracts (seems the more likely scenario) or their vetting process for instructors is so poor that they did not bother to perform the most basic background process. If that's the case then that throws the quality of their training program into question. In either case it reflects poorly on Troy Industries as a company.
Then the next logical step is to get an explanation as to how all of this transpired and judge the answer as satisfactory or not.
"Oops" doesn't begin to cover it.
Nightvisionary
08-21-13, 14:20
I doubt 'HR' is hiring instructors over there.
This guy has written articles even after he retired calling for gun control. I don't see how its possible for them to hire this guy who wants to ban the very products they make, and just brush it off as a mistake.
You are right on target. This was no mistake or oversight. Chicago politicians and police administrators are synonymous with corruption and anti-second amendment agendas. "Chicago Police Superintendent" should have set off alarm bells for ANY firearms related business. I think Troy got greedy and figured they would roll the dice. Big government training contracts or customer base backlash....COME ON BIG GOVERMENT CONTRACTS, that's what they were thinking.
You are right on target. This was no mistake or oversight. Chicago politicians and police administrators are synonymous with corruption and anti-second amendment agendas. "Chicago Police Superintendent" should have set off alarm bells for ANY firearms related business. I think Troy got greedy and figured they would roll the dice. Big government training contracts or customer base backlash....COME ON BIG GOVERMENT CONTRACTS, that's what they were thinking.
As manic as the gun community can be at times if that were/is the case its a pretty boneheaded move. That's still speculation tho.
Army Chief
08-21-13, 14:26
Foolhardy, but fixed. Nothing more to discuss, really.
These aren't the Droids we're looking for.
AC
Grease Monkey
08-21-13, 14:46
I'm sure it has cost them some "line in the sand" customers who will never come back. As for me, they ****ed up but they fixed it.
I'm generally pretty forgiving of "**** ups" so long as the person makes it right and fixes it. I could imagine a few scenarios where somebody didn't take the time to investigate his past political decisions and they learned the hard way to check things out a bit more fully.
Maybe Troy and all the other respectable firearm manufacturers need to create a job where somebody like me does "political clearance" background investigations for all new hires.
I'm glad they fixed it too. I also wonder why the guy would even want to work for troy. I would think that is the last place an anti-gun person would go anyway. What would his "training" role be?
.46caliber
08-21-13, 14:58
Foolhardy, but fixed. Nothing more to discuss, really.
These aren't the Droids we're looking for.
AC
I don't know about all that. Shipping a bad batch of sights or having to recall a rail is one thing. Hiring a member of the Pelosi Fan Club to the training division is a bit bigger of a problem than a "Our mistake. We fixed it." type response covers.
Those are exactly the Droids I'm watching out for.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
theblackknight
08-21-13, 15:16
I'd rather give my money to the NRA-ILA.
My fuse with gun owners is very short. I tend to favor shooters. The next generation needs more shooters and less gun owners.
Foolhardy, but fixed. Nothing more to discuss, really.
These aren't the Droids we're looking for.
AC
There's only nothing left to talk about because it's really really impossible for Troy to not know who this guy was before hand.
So Troy hired a former chief of ChIraq to head up their training division and then fired him, what difference does it make?
Army Chief
08-21-13, 15:19
Perhaps, but I suspect that there is more to the story here, and I am disinclined to render judgment based upon the barest of facts. It is relatively easy to armchair quarterback something like this, but it seems more likely that the folks at Troy were given a recommendation based upon some semi-trusted (if clueless) third-party, rather than a deliberate decision on their part to hire an actual adversary of the 2A.
Given what we know now, it stretches the imagination to presume that Troy was aware of the baggage, and simply chose to ignore it. Clearly, they didn't do their homework, but I'm sure they've figured that out by now.
Like I said, stupid, but probably not malicious.
AC
dookie1481
08-21-13, 15:28
Did they state that they are not employing him in any fashion, or did they say that he is not joining their instructor cadre?
.46caliber
08-21-13, 15:35
AC, I absolutely agree that there has to be quite a bit more to the story. And that armchair quarterbacking is particularly sub par with this little info.
Not much is really clear at this point other than Troy hired Weis and then after responses Troy fired Weis, specifically as instructor. Nothing else is clear.
I can't buy that Troy had no clue who he is or what he's voiced. If some errant 3rd party recommended a retired Police Chief from Chicago PD, how on earth would that not throw a flag to do some more digging before extending an offer?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Doc Safari
08-21-13, 15:37
Given that at the very least this could be a career-destroying move, I suspect we'll see a detailed explanation on every appropriate venue very shortly.
IMO, no entity would hire a Chicago politico without expectations of some ability to have access behind the scenes, especially considering the current Oval Office holder. So far as where this guy went after having his position terminated, to me it's unlikely that he's anywhere in the Troy family since he raised the ire so quickly. My guess is he also received a fairly nice severance package.
In all fairness he might have turned out to be a great trainer, if you take into account his "cut and run" approach to the nearby shooting that was linked to in the OP. Maybe Troy had a training contract with the French Army and needed his experience.
.46caliber
08-21-13, 16:45
Given that at the very least this could be a career-destroying move, I suspect we'll see a detailed explanation on every appropriate venue very shortly.
That's my anticipation as well.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
I'm sure it has cost them some "line in the sand" customers who will never come back. As for me, they ****ed up but they fixed it.
I'm generally pretty forgiving of "**** ups" so long as the person makes it right and fixes it. I could imagine a few scenarios where somebody didn't take the time to investigate his past political decisions and they learned the hard way to check things out a bit more fully.
Maybe Troy and all the other respectable firearm manufacturers need to create a job where somebody like me does "political clearance" background investigations for all new hires.
This is me. Of course, an immediate apology in the way of a "We Goofed, So 30% Off Everything Sale" wouldn't hurt. :D
People buy Troy products to begin with? I thought they've always made cheap garbage...??
Army Chief
08-21-13, 17:43
A second clarification has been posted to FB, this time a bit more insightful. Not brilliant, mind you, but at least it makes more sense.
Bottom line: No affiliation of any kind, and a mea culpa on paying no attention to Chicago politics.
There are only so many ways to eat crow ... I suspect they will become familiar with most of them before this is really through.
AC
A second clarification has been posted to FB, this time a bit more insightful. Not brilliant, mind you, but at least it makes more sense.
Bottom line: No affiliation of any kind, and a mea culpa on paying no attention to Chicago politics.
There are only so many ways to eat crow ... I suspect they will become familiar with most of them before this is really through.
AC
Good enough for me. I know it will shock most people but many companies are too busy doing what they do and making the things they make to look into anyone's political beliefs.
Background checks typically check for criminal activity ONLY. They don't check if you are a Republican or a Democrat and if you did go hunting for that kind of information you could find yourself dealing with a discrimination lawsuit.
Probably the ONLY thing that carried over was his past law enforcement status, and typically most employers see that as a bonus.
Alaskapopo
08-21-13, 17:52
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
Doc Safari
08-21-13, 17:55
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
I'd wager such things happen every day and you just don't hear about them.
I was persecuted on more than one job because of my pro-gun stance. It's not that unusual if you judge by my experience.
thopkins22
08-21-13, 17:56
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
If the business relied on anti-gun beliefs in order to keep it's doors open?
A better analogy would be is it okay to fire someone from Ford who thinks that cars are polluting the planet and are going to kill our grandkids...and actively goes out of his way to see laws created to ban cars.
Alaskapopo
08-21-13, 17:59
If the business relied on anti-gun beliefs in order to keep it's doors open?
A better analogy would be is it okay to fire someone from Ford who thinks that cars are polluting the planet and are going to kill our grandkids...and actively goes out of his way to see laws created to ban cars.
I guess it would depend on what his job was. If he was the PR guy yea don't hire him. But if he was hired to sweep floors who cares.
I know I would do what I could to fight it if I was fired for being pro gun at my work place.
Pat
Army Chief
08-21-13, 18:00
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
I do see the larger point you're making, but the more accurate question is probably be how you might feel about losing an employment opportunity because of a pro-2A stance if the prospective hirer was Handgun Control Inc., or some other group that depended almost entirely upon advancing a completely contrary agenda.
AC
ETA: late to the draw (via iPhone), as I see the point has been made.
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
I for one, would be grateful to be canned in this case. Never, ever would I work for anti freedom companies. I do put principal before earnings. Ymmv.
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
If I were applying for a job at the Brady Campaign I'd expect it.
Similarly if I was applying for a job at an abortion clinic and I was anti abortion I'd expect to be let go.
If I was applying for a job with a newspaper and I didn't support freedom of the press I'd expect to be let go.
If I was applying for a job at a church and I didn't believe in freedom of religion I'd expect to be let go.
If I was applying for a job at the ACLU and I didn't believe in freedom of speech I'd expect to be let go.
And just for you...
If I were applying for a job with law enforcement and I was politically active in a way that was detrimental to law enforcement, I'd expect to be let go.
I'd explain in further detail but I have to run down and see how my CAIR application is coming along.
Alaskapopo
08-21-13, 18:07
Fair enough points have been made. Thanks for taking the time to post.
Pat
I know I would do what I could to fight it if I was fired for being pro gun at my work place.
Pat
Problem is they won't tell you that. The official reason will be because of budget cuts, closing out your position, non compliance with some completely arbitrary regulation that exists only for this purpose or something along those lines.
They never tell you it's because of your race, because some guy in some management department doesn't like your opinions or because you eat onions on your food and nobody else does.
I've been "let go" and "laid off" from more than one job because I voiced my conservative opinions as strongly as everyone else voiced their liberal opinions and I was greatly in the minority. Someone actually complained that I was creating a "stressful work environment" because I'd counter expressed liberal views.
This is what happens when you are greatly outnumbered in the workplace. Those with a minority opinion are considered "the problem" for not adapting to the norm and disrupting the harmonious work environment they seek.
Most managers working today are completely incompetent or out for their own good.
An HR person or anyone else hiring someone, that doesn't type their name into google is unfit to be working for a company; and should be picking up dog shit out of rich peoples' lawns for $5 a scoop.
The people that looked at this person's resume should have seen "Chicago PD Superintendent" which should have immediately flown a red flag about this person’s political stance.
I’m guessing the people at Troy knew exactly what they were doing. Shit like this doesn’t happen by chance.
What about this guy makes him so qualified to teach advanced gun handling skills? What class is he going to teach? Intro to JBT 101?
THey just posted this:
Earlier today we announced that Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.
Mr. Weis has no affiliation with Troy Asymmetric or any of its affiliated companies. It was the intention of Troy Asymmetric to retain him as a contract employee for government-specific programs. Troy Industries had no knowledge of Mr. Weis’ political leanings or stance on the Second Amendment as we are not involved in Chicago politics.
Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.
Our immediate actions today re-affirm our commitment to the fundamental individual right to bear arms.
Most managers working today are completely incompetent or out for their own good.
An HR person or anyone else hiring someone, that doesn't type their name into google is unfit to be working for a company; and should be picking up dog shit out of rich peoples' lawns for $5 a scoop.
The people that looked at this person's resume should have seen "Chicago PD Superintendent" which should have immediately flown a red flag about this person’s political stance.
I’m guessing the people at Troy knew exactly what they were doing. Shit like this doesn’t happen by chance.
What about this guy makes him so qualified to teach advanced gun handling skills? What class is he going to teach? Intro to JBT 101?
Well they claim otherwise.
I think the important thing is the past action of Mr. Weis have come back to haunt him and have cost him employment of the type most here would consider a "dream job."
That position is now available for a more suitable applicant and Mr. Weis has learned he is not welcome in many places. If nothing else, this has highlighted an individual who "may" have flown under the radar for years without being noticed.
Will be interesting to hear Troy's reasoning/excuse for this debacle. I don't have much invested in them (a few of their mags) but am all ears if they say anything.
Head of their 'Asymmetric' division..... would say so!
-Jax
I'm up here in Seattle. About as far from Chicago as it gets in the lower 48. I didn't know the guy by name but if I got an applicant for a job that said "Chicago PD Chief" on it, I'd sure as hell start digging. THey are legendarily anti gun.
Look at some of the other people they have on their payroll.
Dale Monroe ?
Look at some of the other people they have on their payroll.
Dale Monroe ?
Never heard of him, what did he do?
thopkins22
08-21-13, 20:59
Never heard of him, what did he do?
According to Google, he was the partner of one of the Ruby Ridge shooters.
Edited for accuracy.
According to Google, he was the partner of one of the Ruby Ridge shooters.
Edited for accuracy.
Wiki notes he went along with the "new" ROE for Ruby Ridge, but doesn't mention if he personally did any shooting.
The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.[48] A later Senate report criticized the ROE as "virtual shoot-on-sight orders."
While not Lon Horiuchi, it's still kinda "iffy" territory. In some way that's worse than being an "anti gun" police chief.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-21-13, 21:26
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
Pat,
why doesnt this post from you surprise me?
SpeedRacer
08-21-13, 21:27
I don't believe Troy didn't know. They were hiring a trainer, not a secretary. I would hope some pretty in depth vetting would take place before adding someone to their cadre.
Honestly, I'm more offended by their "apology" and backpedaling than I am them hiring the guy. If he was in a role that affected the side of the company that sells products to us civilians, I could see an obvious issue. As an instructor for the training side of their company, which only trains LE, mil and security contractors, I just don't find much of a problem with it as it would in no way affect the production side of things or influence their stance on the 2A.
Five_Point_Five_Six
08-21-13, 21:39
Maybe the guy in charge at HR didn't look into the guys history a whole lot?
"I see you're former police outta Chicago...when can you start?"
.46caliber
08-21-13, 21:56
THey just posted this:
That's more damning than the original PR. They said it. They brought him in to schmooze LEO/MIL contracts. They knew enough to hire him for that role. I don't believe they are as ignorant as they claim. I guess CMMG is nosy for participating in the CO recall.
Edited for correction.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
theblackknight
08-21-13, 22:06
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
That was my reasoning for not using my actual name on the FB. Then I got a job at a FFL:rolleyes::o Cat, meet outside of bag.
Alaskapopo
08-21-13, 22:41
Pat,
why doesnt this post from you surprise me?
So do you think you should be able to be fired because of a pro gun stance at work. I believe in fairness. Ideally someone's political beliefs (right wing or left wing) should not affect their employment as long as they keep it separate from their work.
Pat
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-21-13, 23:25
So do you think you should be able to be fired because of a pro gun stance at work. I believe in fairness. Ideally someone's political beliefs (right wing or left wing) should not affect their employment as long as they keep it separate from their work.
Pat
If I espouse anti-LEO statements, and in fact make a living off of those statements, I would expect my employer to cut my last check.
If my life was based off of hurting the industry that now pays me and it suddenly comes to light, especially in a way that will SEVERELY DAMAGE my employer, I would expect to be fired.
If MAIG hires me to be anywhere outside of cleaning the bathrooms, and then found out how many black rifles I had and my views regarding civilian gun ownership, then I would expect to be fired.
Is this not common sense? Homeboy wasnt hired to be the janitor....
Alaskapopo
08-21-13, 23:30
If I espouse anti-LEO statements, and in fact make a living off of those statements, I would expect my employer to cut my last check.
If my life was based off of hurting the industry that now pays me and it suddenly comes to light, especially in a way that will SEVERELY DAMAGE my employer, I would expect to be fired.
If MAIG hires me to be anywhere outside of cleaning the bathrooms, and then found out how many black rifles I had and my views regarding civilian gun ownership, then I would expect to be fired.
Is this not common sense? Homeboy wasnt hired to be the janitor....
I agree with what you said in red. And in this case his stance became public and did hurt Troy. However my point is that him having a political stance alone should not be grounds for dismissal.
Pat
That is like saying that a Prohibitionist who got hired on at a distillery should expect to bleep his job because prohibition is a political stance. I think you are jut being contrarian.
dookie1481
08-21-13, 23:43
Look at some of the other people they have on their payroll.
Dale Monroe ?
No ****in shit.
The guy who said he was going to shoot Vicki Weaver but didn't pull the trigger because Horiuchi did so first.
Alaskapopo
08-21-13, 23:50
That is like saying that a Prohibitionist who got hired on at a distillery should expect to bleep his job because prohibition is a political stance. I think you are jut being contrarian.
Well as long as he was not talking about politics at work or making statements in public that hurt his employer then why is it an issue.
Pat
Belmont31R
08-22-13, 00:12
Well as long as he was not talking about politics at work or making statements in public that hurt his employer then why is it an issue.
Pat
He has written a few articles for newspapers which call for laws that would hurt his employer. Before or during his employment is not much different. His articles and stance can be used after his employment started to hurt his employer. When you put your views out in public they are subject to affecting your employment.
Every employer I have worked for would fire you for making statements in public that could hurt their image or business.
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 00:29
He has written a few articles for newspapers which call for laws that would hurt his employer. Before or during his employment is not much different. His articles and stance can be used after his employment started to hurt his employer. When you put your views out in public they are subject to affecting your employment.
Every employer I have worked for would fire you for making statements in public that could hurt their image or business.
I am not talking about this one person but rather the concept of firing someone for their political beliefs. If what he has written hurts the company I understand.
Pat
So do you think you should be able to be fired because of a pro gun stance at work. I believe in fairness. Ideally someone's political beliefs (right wing or left wing) should not affect their employment as long as they keep it separate from their work.
Pat
Not anymore than a police officer should be fired for their "anti gun" stance. As I tried to explain before, some jobs are politically neutral. If you spin pizzas for a living it shouldn't matter if you are pro gun or anti gun. If you are a LEO it shouldn't matter if you are pro gun or anti gun (so long as you enforce the law withing the confines of the laws rather than your beliefs).
But if you are in the firearms industry, that is different. We have enough problems with anti gun RINOs trying to become President. We really don't need them in the firearms industry and any company that employs such individuals will see people vote with their dollars.
ETA: Now if he got fired because of his stance on the abortion issue THEN you'd have a point.
I am not talking about this one person but rather the concept of firing someone for their political beliefs.
Pat
Happens ALL the time. Religious beliefs, or lack thereof can also get you fired.
Nightvisionary
08-22-13, 00:37
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
On the wrong side of the issue as to be expected. If I was hired by Handgun Control Inc. or Ceasefire it would not upset me but then again you would never see a pro 2nd Amendment American apply for an organization like that. Just saying.
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 00:43
Happens ALL the time. Religious beliefs, or lack thereof can also get you fired.
I know it happens but if you can prove it that is why the fired you they will be paying a big check out.
Pat
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 00:46
On the wrong side of the issue as to be expected. If I was hired by Handgun Control Inc. or Ceasefire it would not upset me but then again you would never see a pro 2nd Amendment American apply for an organization like that. Just saying.
Wrong side of the issue we are just discussing something here. Never said I support what the guy in question said. Just wanted people to think is it right or wrong to fire someone because of their political beliefs alone. I say no it is not and I bet if anyone on here were fired for being pro gun they would agree. Also how pro gun does one need to be. What if they were for background checks but against an AWB. Where do you draw the line.
pat
Belmont31R
08-22-13, 01:02
I am not talking about this one person but rather the concept of firing someone for their political beliefs. If what he has written hurts the company I understand.
Pat
Depends on the job. Some places politics plays a role in their operations and future prospects. Employers have to control the message they put out in public, and some people can be a hot tater for what they have expressed in the past. When you stick your employee's face on the Internet, and use their resume as a selling point to customers, political beliefs do absolutely have a role in that person's employment. The company is selling that person for their benefit.
I know it happens but if you can prove it that is why the fired you they will be paying a big check out.
Pat
You'd probably have better luck finding bigfoot. And honestly, I'm not that guy. I'm not gonna play the "You fired me because you don't like me so I'm gonna sue you" lottery game. In a way I'm grateful to not work for people like that or in environments where people would fire me because of my values. I'd want nothing to do with them which is why I have left more than a few jobs.
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 01:06
You'd probably have better luck finding bigfoot. And honestly, I'm not that guy. I'm not gonna play the "You fired me because you don't like me so I'm gonna sue you" lottery game. In a way I'm grateful to not work for people like that or in environments where people would fire me because of my values. I'd want nothing to do with them which is why I have left more than a few jobs.
I would sue them to punish them. Why let people get away with unlawful and frankly evil conduct. I would sue them get as much as I could to make it as painful as possible so maybe in the future they would change their behavior.
Pat
I would sue them to punish them. Why let people get away with unlawful and frankly evil conduct. I would sue them get as much as I could to make it as painful as possible so maybe in the future they would change their behavior.
Pat
Because I don't think I'm "owed" something because somebody didn't like my views anymore than I believe I'm "owed" a job. I also don't need to play the "I'll get even with you guys" game.
Get fired, suck it up, get another job - preferably a better one.
I also have a hard time qualifying something like that as "evil." I've seen evil shit before, being wrongfully terminated from your place of employment isn't "evil."
Belmont31R
08-22-13, 02:03
Here is a real winner. Like it or not what you do outside of work can be a problem for your employer.
http://m.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/homeland-security-employee-moonlights-race-warrior/68600/
I know it happens but if you can prove it that is why the fired you they will be paying a big check out.
Pat
Religious beliefs, yes. Political beliefs, no.
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 05:38
Because I don't think I'm "owed" something because somebody didn't like my views anymore than I believe I'm "owed" a job. I also don't need to play the "I'll get even with you guys" game.
Get fired, suck it up, get another job - preferably a better one.
I also have a hard time qualifying something like that as "evil." I've seen evil shit before, being wrongfully terminated from your place of employment isn't "evil."
Its not always that easy. Depends on what your career field is. If your a construction worker who is going from job to job anyway its easy enough to move on. In law enforcement no its not that easy and I am sure other career paths are not that easy to move from job to job in. I don't think I am owed a job but I do think everyone is owed fair treatment and they at the very least are entitled to a work place where their employer does not violate labor law. People who break the law including employers need to be held accountable and law suits are one way to make that happen.
Pat
I don't understand your logic. It's like hiring a NAZI to work on behalf of a Jewish center.
The douche is anti-gun and was mistakenly hired to work for a pro-gun outfit. So yeah I think it's good they cut him loose. It also proves that Mr. Anti-gun douche doesn't have principles and is willing to go work for a company involved in a business that he is against simply because he is getting a paycheck.
Wrong side of the issue we are just discussing something here. Never said I support what the guy in question said. Just wanted people to think is it right or wrong to fire someone because of their political beliefs alone. I say no it is not and I bet if anyone on here were fired for being pro gun they would agree. Also how pro gun does one need to be. What if they were for background checks but against an AWB. Where do you draw the line.
pat
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 06:18
I don't understand your logic. It's like hiring a NAZI to work on behalf of a Jewish center.
The douche is anti-gun and was mistakenly hired to work for a pro-gun outfit. So yeah I think it's good they cut him loose. It also proves that Mr. Anti-gun douche doesn't have principles and is willing to go work for a company involved in a business that he is against simply because he is getting a paycheck.
Lets make it easier. Say your pro life and your employer finds out and fires you? Is that right?
Pat
Army Chief
08-22-13, 06:25
While I think the metaphors and illustrations remain valid (and I employed one of my own earlier), perhaps there is more utility in just addressing this directly.
If you're engaged in the business of selling AR parts primarily to the civilian market, and you then choose to hire someone who is opposed to regular folks owning those kinds of guns in the first place, then you are completely alienating your primary customer base.
It makes about as much sense as Ford Motor Company hiring a guy that had endorsed their Police Interceptor cruisers, but who felt that the average American shouldn't own a car of their own ... except, of course, that a large company like Ford could bury him in their org chart someplace where no one would even notice. Troy doesn't have that luxury.
The same basic logic applies here, as I've not known Troy to ever be a major government contractor. They had no choice but to jettison this guy before any more potential customers heard about it, and permanently swore off of Troy product. Econ-101.
AC
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 06:31
While I think the metaphors and illustrations remain valid (and I employed one of my own earlier), perhaps there is more utility in just addressing this directly.
If you're engaged in the business of selling AR parts primarily to the civilian market, and you then choose to hire someone who is opposed to regular folks owning those kinds of guns in the first place, then you are completely alienating your primary customer base.
It makes about as much sense as Ford Motor Company hiring a guy that had endorsed their Police Interceptor cruisers, but who felt that the average American shouldn't own a car of their own ... except, of course, that a large company like Ford could bury him in their org chart someplace where no one would even notice. Troy doesn't have that luxury.
The same basic logic applies here, as I've not known Troy to ever be a major government contractor. They had no choice but to jettison this guy before any more potential customers heard about it, and permanently swore off of Troy product. Econ-101.
AC
I agree in this case. I was just saying a lot of us are cheering that the guy got fired for his political views but I bet we would not be saying the same thing had his views been reversed. Say he were fired for being pro gun and was going to be hired on at Boeing for security. Its just a fine line punishing someone for their political beliefs. There should be a good reason as you listed above. There are some posters here whom I don't get agree with at all politically but I would hire them to do the job if their qualifications were up to the job and I felt they would work hard and do a good job.
Army Chief
08-22-13, 06:43
Say he were fired for being pro gun and was going to be hired on at Boeing for security. Its just a fine line punishing someone for their political beliefs.
While I think we would agree that the comparison is not entirely apples-for-apples, this is nevertheless a very good counterpoint. Boeing may very well take a dim view on pro-gun views (I've no idea either way), but it would be a bitter pill to swallow if you were ever caught up in a situation like that.
Of course, I guess we have to account for the whole "workplace culture" element of the prospective employer. Personally, I wouldn't expect to be particularly well-received as a free lance writer for the Huffington Post, for example. I doubt Magpul would see much merit in bringing Sarah Brady on board as a corporate spokeswoman, either. This is why I look at the situation with Troy and just wonder who was ultimately making the call on this one, and what they were basing the hiring decision upon in the first place. Clearly, the dog ate their homework.
AC
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 06:47
While I think we would agree that the comparison is not entirely apples-for-apples, this is nevertheless a very good counterpoint. Boeing may very well take a dim view on pro-gun views (I've no idea either way), but it would be a bitter pill to swallow if you were ever caught up in a situation like that.
Of course, I guess we have to account for the whole "workplace culture" element of the prospective employer. Personally, I wouldn't expect to be particularly well-received as a free lance writer for the Huffington Post, for example. I doubt Magpul would see much merit in bringing Sarah Brady on board as a corporate spokeswoman, either. This is why I look at the situation with Troy and just wonder who was ultimately making the call on this one, and what they were basing the hiring decision upon in the first place. Clearly, the dog ate their homework.
AC
At the end of the day people have to own what they say in public.
Pat
Lets make it easier. Say your pro life and your employer finds out and fires you? Is that right?
Pat
I believe Massachusetts is an at-will employment state. Any employee can be fired at any time without notice for any reason, or no reason whatsoever. Except that they can't be fired for reasons of race, color, national origin, age, sex, disability, or veteran status, or religion. If one's pro-life stand can be proven to be based on their religious beliefs then they can't be fired for that reason alone. An anti-gun stance does not represent a protected class and can form a basis for being fired in an at-will employment state.
Anyway, my guess is the circumstances of the guy's parting from Troy were amicable, mutually agreed (or some variation of that stuff), or he wasn't fired at all...just given a different position in the company.
Doc Safari
08-22-13, 09:15
If you're engaged in the business of selling AR parts primarily to the civilian market, and you then choose to hire someone who is opposed to regular folks owning those kinds of guns in the first place, then you are completely alienating your primary customer base.
This nails it. No one would give a fast flying intercourse through a rolling donut if the guy Troy hired was into Greenpeace or something.
Army Chief
08-22-13, 09:24
No way I could keep up with a rolling doughnut in my present condition. Just sayin'. ;)
AC
I wonder how many here would be upset if they were fired from a job they had just received based on their pro gun stance. Just saying.
pat
I think the more important issue as far as M4C'ers are concerned is how a company that is in the business that Troy is in could ever even contemplate, much less actually, hire someone with this man's history.
We should never have had the discussion of why they should or shouldn't fire him; the guy's stance on issues pertaining to this career move should have precluded him from advancing past the stage of "what is your name?" on the application.
There are examples that could go on forever of people having beliefs that should keep them from even getting involved in certain fields or careers and this is clearly one of those situations.
I'd rather give my money to the NRA-ILA.
I hate for a thread de-rail, but this is the general section afterall. Give to both. We absolutely have to have both. The FNRA contributes greatly to education and range development at the grass roots level. I can't count how many new shooters I have brought into the fold this year. Many of these are directly the result of FNRA money coming to our range.
Monroe testified under oath the only reason he didn't shoot Vicki Weaver is because Lon shot her first.
What other questionable people does Troy have hired. Makes me wonder.
Army Chief
08-22-13, 11:23
I hate for a thread de-rail, but this is the general section afterall. Give to both. We absolutely have to have both. The FNRA contributes greatly to education and range development at the grass roots level. I can't count how many new shooters I have brought into the fold this year. Many of these are directly the result of FNRA money coming to our range.
Good point. I tend to look at it this way: when they begin talking about closing down the local ice rink, the figure skaters and hockey players are both equally inconvenienced. What we need is more cooperation and camaraderie in the shooting community -- not less.
AC
Well as long as he was not talking about politics at work or making statements in public that hurt his employer then why is it an issue.
Pat
Because a socio-political belief is not a protected class in employment. No one owes anyone a job, period. Toe the line or take a walk, life is full of choices. :rolleyes:
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/index.cfm
•Age
•Disability
•Equal Pay/Compensation
•Genetic Information
•National Origin
•Pregnancy
•Race/Color
•Religion
•Retaliation
•Sex
•Sexual Harassment
Nightvisionary
08-22-13, 12:31
Here is a double whammy for you all if the Jody Weis debacle wasn't enough.
Troy also employs former FBI sniper, Dale Monroe. Dale Monroe was Lon Horiuchi's partner at Ruby Ridge when Horiuchi put a bullet through Vicki Weavers head while she was holding her baby. Monroe is on record as stating the rules of engagement allowed him to shoot ANY armed adult on sight even if they posed no imminent threat.
Now they want us to believe hiring Weis in spite of his anti- second amendment activism was a mere oversight on their part. Apparently Troy is a firm believer of P.T. Barnum's old saying "There is a sucker born every minute". We aren't suckers but we do judge based on the company you keep.
Troy has now stated the following on their Facebook page in regards to Dick's Sporting goods, in a effort to paint themselves as Second Amendment champions, which we all know is a complete lie. Dick's Sporting Goods dropped THEM like a hot potato not the other way around:
"Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment. "
Not one more dime from me Troy, not one.
Here is a double whammy for you all if the Jody Weis debacle wasn't enough.
Troy also employs former FBI sniper, Dale Monroe. Dale Monroe was Lon Horiuchi's partner at Ruby Ridge when Horiuchi put a bullet through Vicki Weavers head while she was holding her baby. Monroe is on record as stating the rules of engagement allowed him to shoot ANY armed adult on sight even if they posed no imminent threat.
Now they want us to believe hiring Weis in spite of his anti- second amendment activism was a mere oversight on their part. Apparently Troy is a firm believer of P.T. Barnum's old saying "There is a sucker born every minute". We aren't suckers but we do judge based on the company you keep.
Troy has now stated the following on their Facebook page in regards to Dick's Sporting goods, in a effort to paint themselves as Second Amendment champions, which we all know is a complete lie. Dick's Sporting Goods dropped THEM like a hot potato not the other way around:
"Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment. "
Not one more dime from me Troy, not one.
I'll admit that this looks pretty bad for them. There are lots of options on the AR components market. While I prefer Troy BUIS over others I've used, they are after all a secondary item. When given the choice, why take a chance on a company that doesn't support us 100%? :confused:
Doc Safari
08-22-13, 13:25
Here is a double whammy for you all if the Jody Weis debacle wasn't enough.
Troy also employs former FBI sniper, Dale Monroe. Dale Monroe was Lon Horiuchi's partner at Ruby Ridge when Horiuchi put a bullet through Vicki Weavers head while she was holding her baby. Monroe is on record as stating the rules of engagement allowed him to shoot ANY armed adult on sight even if they posed no imminent threat.
Now they want us to believe hiring Weis in spite of his anti- second amendment activism was a mere oversight on their part. Apparently Troy is a firm believer of P.T. Barnum's old saying "There is a sucker born every minute". We aren't suckers but we do judge based on the company you keep.
Troy has now stated the following on their Facebook page in regards to Dick's Sporting goods, in a effort to paint themselves as Second Amendment champions, which we all know is a complete lie. Dick's Sporting Goods dropped THEM like a hot potato not the other way around:
"Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment. "
Not one more dime from me Troy, not one.
Yeah.....Gosh. I'm proceeding from the premise that what you typed is 100% accurate.
I think the adage, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here.
I backed off from Troy products after reading complaints buried deep in threads that their sight apertures tend to "wander" between the two on their back up iron rear sights. This is supposedly due to a lack of any positive retention when the aperture is in either position, i.e., a design flaw, but there was so much Kool-Aid being passed around that these sights were the shizzle that I decided to just back off their products due to some doubt about the objectivity of some reviews.
Now add the political sewage and I think I'd just rather go elsewhere for sure.
Here is a real winner. Like it or not what you do outside of work can be a problem for your employer.
http://m.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/homeland-security-employee-moonlights-race-warrior/68600/
I'm stunned and amazed that the SPLC outed a potentially dangerous black racist. Glad he was still able to find a nice government job though.
Lets make it easier. Say your pro life and your employer finds out and fires you? Is that right?
Pat
YES....IF you happen to work in an abortion clinic AND are politically active in trying to have them shut down, exposed or laws changed.
Monroe testified under oath the only reason he didn't shoot Vicki Weaver is because Lon shot her first.
What other questionable people does Troy have hired. Makes me wonder.
Back on topic, that is some serious shit and maybe somebody needs to ask Troy about their employment of this individual as well.
Doc Safari
08-22-13, 14:19
Monroe testified under oath the only reason he didn't shoot Vicki Weaver is because Lon shot her first.
And Vicki Weaver was holding her child when the bullet struck her...
I understand Lon took quite a bit of heat from his bosses over shooting Vicki Weaver. They told him, "If you can't hit a baby at that range you have no business as an FBI sniper."
(Sorry. Cheap Shot. Black Humor). :D
Grand58742
08-22-13, 14:21
What we need is more cooperation and camaraderie in the shooting community -- not less.
AC
I don't disagree in the least...
But when you take reputable companies like Troy and hire a known anti-gunner.
Or HS Precision which hired one of the most controversial figures in the shooting community to do an endorsement.
Or a Recoil Magazine editor decides what the lowly citizen should and shouldn't have.
Or Dan Cooper who came out in support of one of the most blatant anti-gun Presidents in living memory.
Et al...
You will set yourself apart from your peer group (other manufacturers, dealers and shooters/consumers) and create more a of a divide in the community. And in turn, your business will suffer as a result. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. You often make the bed you lie in and often times your business decisions, remarks and political stances will hurt in the long run.
What needs to happen is more companies need to look deeper into their employees past records before determining if they should hire them. Now, I don't care who voted for who when it comes down to it as we are a nation that believes (although sometimes does not practice) in free elections and the freedom of choice. But if you support the policies and/or politicians that work overtime to deny you the very Rights guaranteed under our Constitution, you should be looked at a lot closer. While one cannot deny a job based on political affiliation, if James Yeager was to walk into the Brady Campaign and ask for a job, you don't think he would be looked at pretty darn closely and probably not hired? So why aren't the firearms and components companies doing the same thing?
Maybe you're an insider threat? Maybe you got religion and decided you were wrong all those years? Either way, before hiring anyone, one should be scrutinized more so than names like Haley, Miculek, Vickers or Costa. Names with a known track record of supporting gun rights. Better those names rather than one who will be looked at with a questioning eye every word they speak wondering if the anti-gun agenda is still active or not. Certain names will cause you to lose business as seen in some of the companies listed above. Names like Eric Holder, Dan Gross, Eddie Compass or Jody Weiss aren't creating divides in the shooting communities...
The companies that would hire them do that instead.
What is past is prologue as Shakespeare puts it. And I for one do not believe a zebra changes its stripes just because they need a job and get hired at the local tac shooting school. For Troy to go out and hire someone that was a police chief in a city well known for its anti-gun agenda, has made anti-gun comments and continually worked against the 2A, they deserve what they get.
And hopefully it's a lesson to other manufacturers out there.
platoonDaddy
08-22-13, 14:25
What does this mean? other than bull shit
Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.
What does this mean? other than bull shit
Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.
Correct me if I'm wrong; but Dick's Sporting Goods made that decision FOR troy, didn't they?
As in, "Sorry Troy, we are cutting ties."
Belmont31R
08-22-13, 14:33
I thought the story was that Dicks stopped selling AR15's and screwed Troy over on rifles they had ordered. I fail to see how that is something Troy did all on their own as a stance on the 2A.
I would also think if Dicks had a contract with Troy, and they reneged on that contract, there would be remedy spelled out for compensation to Troy in that case. Most any contract should have provisions for what happens if one side fails to live up to the terms.
I would sue them to punish them. Why let people get away with unlawful and frankly evil conduct. I would sue them get as much as I could to make it as painful as possible so maybe in the future they would change their behavior.
Pat
You wouldn't have a leg to stand on. No lawyer would take the case.
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 15:23
You wouldn't have a leg to stand on. No lawyer would take the case.
That depends on your states labor laws. If your in a right to work state your right your screwed but in other states where you need cause you would have a good case. Also there is always someone who will take the case its just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.
Pat
In Indiana I can fire you because I don't like the color of your shirt on a given day.
That depends on your states labor laws. If your in a right to work state your right your screwed but in other states where you need cause you would have a good case. Also there is always someone who will take the case its just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.
Pat
Alaska, for example, is an at-will employment state. You would be screwed. You might get an attorney to look at the case, they wouldn't take it unless there was a clear civil rights violation and there was a fat settlement at the root .
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 17:29
Alaska, for example, is an at-will employment state. You would be screwed. You might get an attorney to look at the case, they wouldn't take it unless there was a clear civil rights violation and there was a fat settlement at the root .
Not 100% true you can work for places where there are employment rules in effect or union contracts that govern such behavior.
As to Indiana would suck to be a worker there. Another right to screw the worker over state.
Pat
Steve Troy is a good guy and ardent supporter of the 2A. I trust this was a major oversight and when it was learned they rectified it immediately.
There is a reason that information really needs to be verified.
We thank everyone for their opinions on Dale Monroe. We are still reviewing Mr. Monroe’s relationship with Troy Asymmetric and are looking in to the claims that are being made online.
We have reviewed the 1995 Ruby Ridge Congressional testimony and found at 1:42:35 of the taping, it is indeed Ed Wenger who says he would have shot, had Special Agent Horiuchi not shot first. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/67153-1
The attribution of the statement on gunssavelife.com to Mr. Monroe is incorrect. After reviewing the testimony, we are confident that you, too, will find that it is indeed Wenger that made the statement, not Monroe.
Monroe was an FBI HRT member assigned a mission which turned tragic. We are saddened by the events at Ruby Ridge and recognize the significance of the tragedy. If you’ve never worn a uniform, you might not understand why Monroe was in the situation he was in, but if you have worn a uniform, you know how it is to follow orders in a fluid situation.
We’re weighing a difficult decision with many facets and things to consider. One thing we know for sure: Mr. Monroe did not state that he would have fired first. We do hope you will take the time to review all of the available materials on Ruby Ridge and Dale Monroe, and welcome your comments, as they will most certainly help us to reach a final, informed decision.
thopkins22
08-22-13, 20:52
There is a reason that information really needs to be verified.
Let's use the very C-SPAN link that Troy provided...but listen farther into it. Because as you said, verifying the information is important. Now, I'd like to say that I haven't seen any info that those involved on the property had evil intentions, I tend to think they were operating under poor leadership and with bad intel...and that blaming them is blaming a symptom of what was a larger problem. But Troy isn't being forthright when they say that Mr. Monroe never said that...because he absolutely did later in the same video they linked to.
I believe exactly what Troy said when they stated that he was part of a mission which turned tragic, and that they're saddened by it, indeed Mr. Monroe may be saddened by it as well.
03:53:41 http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/67153-1
Dale Monroe: "Prior to his turning that corner, he had stopped at the corner, and was pointing the rifle towards the sky. That's when the decision I made that deadly force was to be applied. Cause I felt that at that moment..."
Senator Specter: "Did you consider firing at that moment?"
Dale Monroe: "Yes I did."
Senator Specter: "And why didn't you?"
Dale Monroe: "Mr. Horiuchi had fired first. The uh...Mr. Weaver had moved, I didn't have an accurate shot."
Senator Specter: "Now when you say pointing the rifle at the sky, can you be more particular about that?"
Dale Monroe: "Mr. Chairman we can can only see a certain field of view in our scopes, and that is why I did not actually see the helicopter, and it appeared to me to be an aiming action, however I can only testify it was pointing towards the sky towards where the helicopter was where I by where I could tell the helicopter was by sound....
Senator Specter: "Was Mr. Weaver aiming the rifle from the shoulder..."
Dale Monroe: "...I don't recall the rifle being into his shoulder..."
Senator Specter: "Where was it?"
Dale Monroe: "It was with both hands across his body." He demonstrates what in earlier testimony had been described as port arms.
And it goes on.
Steve Troy is a good guy and ardent supporter of the 2A. I trust this was a major oversight and when it was learned they rectified it immediately.
It is not rectified at this time. Their current position in on FB:
We thank everyone for their opinions on Dale Monroe. We are still reviewing Mr. Monroe’s relationship with Troy Asymmetric and are looking in to the claims that are being made online.
There is a reason that information really needs to be verified.
Watch the rest and you will see Troy is hand-feeding you. They are digging a hole they soon will not get out of.
At 1:03:30 in the video at the link, Dale Monroe believes both shots were justified.
At 2:16:50 in the video, Dale Monroe says he would have taken the shot if he would had the ability to take an accurate shot at the time.
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 21:07
Troy makes good products this will not affect my decision to buy more of their stuff.
Pat
Yes I did listen to it. He considered firing at Randy Weaver. Not his wife and child. Big difference between considering firing at an armed man vs a woman holding a baby.
Yes I did listen to it. He considered firing at Randy Weaver. Not his wife and child. Big difference between considering firing at an armed man vs a woman holding a baby.
I think the problem is the ROE they were operating under at the time.
Troy makes good products this will not affect my decision to buy more of their stuff.
Pat
Troy makes good products but this WILL affect my decision to buy anything they produce.
Just as I would not want to contribute to the salary of an anti gun individual, I would not want to contribute to the salary of anyone who would accept the ROE such as existed at the Ruby Ridge tragedy.
There were several people there who recognized it was wrong and refused to operate under those conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#The_siege_and_controversy
The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.[48] A later Senate report criticized the ROE as "virtual shoot-on-sight orders
I would like to see this thread stay much more about Troy than about Ruby Ridge. While discussion of particular employees logically involves their past, let's stay out of the weeds and on the pavement?
Alaskapopo
08-22-13, 23:33
Troy makes good products but this WILL affect my decision to buy anything they produce.
Just as I would not want to contribute to the salary of an anti gun individual, I would not want to contribute to the salary of anyone who would accept the ROE such as existed at the Ruby Ridge tragedy.
There were several people there who recognized it was wrong and refused to operate under those conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#The_siege_and_controversy
The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.[48] A later Senate report criticized the ROE as "virtual shoot-on-sight orders
It seems they tried to make good in this case and did not hire the guy. But I respect your views I no longer buy anything Larue for different reasons.
Pat
Troy makes good products this will not affect my decision to buy more of their stuff.
Pat
Winner: Most needless position clarification post of the year. :(
If they keep this turd (Monroe), they'll get no more of my money! :mad:
theblackknight
08-22-13, 23:44
This sucks for Frank Proctor and Kyle Lamb, who both have a "signature" rifle with Troy.
It seems they tried to make good in this case and did not hire the guy. But I respect your views I no longer buy anything Larue for different reasons.
Pat
Actually we are talking about a different guy who seems to have been working with them for some time now.
They chose NOT to hire the guy from Chicago. Now we are discussing Dale Monroe.
Nightvisionary
08-23-13, 08:41
Actually we are talking about a different guy who seems to have been working with them for some time now.
They chose NOT to hire the guy from Chicago. Now we are discussing Dale Monroe.
Since we know Horiuchi was also present at Waco and fired into the compound I wonder if Monroe was present for that as well.
It's starting to seems like one of the pre-requisites for getting hired by Troy is a well documented history of statism and behavior contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America.
I am dissappointed to learn that Monroe is a former Marine Corps officer. It is pure irony that as a Marine Officer he would have likely court martialed a young Marine for following the same rules of engagement in wartime against a foreign enemy that he himself used against American citizens in peace.
I propose that we all start going through the employment records of every Forearms related company. Every employee should be scrutinized and we will can then demand from each company that they terminate any objectionable employees and pay the amount of salary they received to the NRA....
Come on guys. Lets get serious. While I agree with the OP, this has become a witch-hunt. I have seen people on this thread complaining about bolt carriers and dicks sporting goods.
Troy Industries has been a respected manufacturer of AR accessories for years now. And in a couple days you all have turned on them like a pack of hyenas on an injured pup. It is no wonder we are in such dire straits politically. We kill our own if they show the slightest mistake.
This is simple. Troy hired a high profile anti-2nd Amendment political hack. I cannot believe that upper management did not know Weis' background. I will no longer do business with Troy or use any of their products.
This is simple. Troy hired a high profile anti-2nd Amendment political hack. I cannot believe that upper management did not know Weis' background. I will no longer do business with Troy or use any of their products.
Troy's market reality is almost everything they make, someone else makes just as good if not better. So they are easily replaced if their customer base gets pissed off. Thus, as Walter White says, perhaps their best course of action is to Tread Lightly.
Belmont31R
08-23-13, 10:55
I propose that we all start going through the employment records of every Forearms related company. Every employee should be scrutinized and we will can then demand from each company that they terminate any objectionable employees and pay the amount of salary they received to the NRA....
Come on guys. Lets get serious. While I agree with the OP, this has become a witch-hunt. I have seen people on this thread complaining about bolt carriers and dicks sporting goods.
Troy Industries has been a respected manufacturer of AR accessories for years now. And in a couple days you all have turned on them like a pack of hyenas on an injured pup. It is no wonder we are in such dire straits politically. We kill our own if they show the slightest mistake.
Other companies would get the same treatment if they hired the same type of people. Similar things happened to HS Precision with Lon Horiuchi. Not that Im a big bolt action fan but if I ever do build or buy one, Ill never be using any HS Precision parts.
I just don't want a single penny of mine finding its way into one of these guy's pockets. Some of us are pretty passionate about our rights, gov abuse, and don't care to pad a JBT's wallet. When you stick these guy's picture on the Internet as a face of your company, expect backlash.
I'm not telling anyone else what to do with their money. Pat won't buy from Larue because they won't sell a gun to a cop that a citizen in that state can't get. Everyone has their own priorities on what's important to them.
I understand your point. And I am as passionate about gun rights as anyone here. My point however is that every company has done something to piss each of us off at one point or another.
Colt has screwed us over in the Past. Smith, Ruger, the list goes on. And all of these in ways much worse than hiring a guy we don't like. They took actual active actions that harmed our rights. Yes we have moved on past that because of the companies taking action to atone for what they did. What makes now different?
People are so wound up over something Troy did (That they then corrected) that they are now digging for any and all reasons to hate them.
That worries me. Because eventually we are going to run out of allies.
I propose that we all start going through the employment records of every Forearms related company. Every employee should be scrutinized and we will can then demand from each company that they terminate any objectionable employees and pay the amount of salary they received to the NRA....
Come on guys. Lets get serious. While I agree with the OP, this has become a witch-hunt. I have seen people on this thread complaining about bolt carriers and dicks sporting goods.
Troy Industries has been a respected manufacturer of AR accessories for years now. And in a couple days you all have turned on them like a pack of hyenas on an injured pup. It is no wonder we are in such dire straits politically. We kill our own if they show the slightest mistake.
I fully get where you are coming from BUT we don't need Zumbo friends. It hurts us and we shouldn't pay them to do it.
And while I fully understand the desire to hire former members of law enforcement, especially federal law enforcement, we don't need the guys from ATF who consider "patriots" a potential "terror group" and we don't need guys who adopted "special ROE" as it regards to targeting US citizens that wouldn't have been approved in Iraq.
And given this instance, maybe we do need to take a look at some of the other companies because honestly I'd have never expected anything like this from a company like Troy.
Certainly there are more than enough extremely qualified individuals who are former LE / MIL with more than enough experience to do these jobs who never were politically anti gun or willingly engaged US citizens in a way that would not have been permissible in any other situation.
There are so many "good guys" out there seeking employment that there simply is no reason to hire the "bad guys."
And of course companies are free to do as they like, to hire or not hire whoever they wish. Consumers will decide how important the issue is to them and buy accordingly.
There are some who will never buy a Troy product again regardless of what is done to fix things.
There are some who would buy Troy products even if Lon Horiuchi became VP of marketing.
And there are some who will see how things are handled regarding Dale Monroe and will then decide where they sit with Troy.
Honestly the Dale Monroe employment bothers me much more than the Chicago chief of police. But if Troy makes that right, like they did the Chicago chief of police, that will be good enough for me.
I'm gonna take their explanations at "face value" and assume they honestly didn't know until it was brought to their attention. What they do now, having been informed, will make my decision.
I understand your point. And I am as passionate about gun rights as anyone here. My point however is that every company has done something to piss each of us off at one point or another.
Colt has screwed us over in the Past. Smith, Ruger, the list goes on. And all of these in ways much worse than hiring a guy we don't like. They took actual active actions that harmed our rights. Yes we have moved on past that because of the companies taking action to atone for what they did. What makes now different?
People are so wound up over something Troy did (That they then corrected) that they are now digging for any and all reasons to hate them.
That worries me. Because eventually we are going to run out of allies.
Each one of the companies you name got their ass kicked when they screwed the pooch. When they owned that, corrected course and came back to the correct path, they were let off the hook by most.
If Troy still has Monroe on the payroll come Monday morning, they have not yet corrected course. Until they do, this is going to cost them dearly. :(
Ridgerunner665
08-23-13, 23:47
Well...that does it for me...I won't be buying anything from Troy.
I will never believe they didn't know who these guys were when they hired them.
Any changes they make now are only for financial reasons. ..not because they want to do the right thing...they missed their opportunity to do that.
There is no room for guys like this in the firearms community...either believe in our 2nd Amendment rights or find another line of work.
People like this would likely eventually destroy the firearms community from the inside out.
Larry Vickers
08-24-13, 11:34
Renegade
Well done on the Breaking Bad shout out !!!!
I wonder who Troy is teaching LEO's to use 'Asymmetric Warfare' against? The mind - it does wander... and wonder ...
Thus, as Walter White says, perhaps their best course of action is to Tread Lightly.
You are my personal hero of the week.
What bothers me about the Monroe thing is that he doesn't really seem to have the least bit of regret about the whole kill-on-sight illegal death squad participant thing. I'm not sure how you can feel sorry for the death of an innocent mother, yet state you would take the same shot knowing full well that even a novice shooter is taught to verify what is behind a target before shooting at a target. This of course assumes that they were actually shooting at someone other than the person who got their face blown off. You'd have to consult your local mathematician on the odds of that occurrence.
How many top gun snipers have you met that shot people they didn't mean to shoot? How many of these guys get employed with companies like H.S. Precision (yeah, haven't forgotten about that one you ****ers) and Troy? I'd submit to you that anyone who would consider following Ruby Ridge style orders in a domestic law enforcement situation resulting from a missed court date regarding a tax bill charge that the alphabet soup guys admitted on company stationary was bogus would also have no qualms about hitting your block with arty tipped with nerve gas. We know other snipers flat out refused their orders on moral, ethical and legal grounds. Wonder what was up with the A-team, too long ago to blame it on HGH. They're just plain old evil.
You've got to realize that they went after Weaver DEVGRU style over an informant alleging weaver sawed off two shotguns and the fact that Weaver refused to become an informant himself. There was no actual evidence that any of this occurred, all hearsay. When charges were filed the .gov said he was a bank robber with criminal convictions. They lied, they perjured themselves in the indictment. Do you think anyone spent a second in jail over that? Ha. Incidentally Weaver initially came up on alphabet soup radar because a neighbor pissed off because of a property dispute said that Weaver was threatening to kill everyone from the Pope to the CIC. Half his family was killed because some dipshit that lost a $5,100 legal dispute with him said he was a bad guy. Also incidentally the original court date that was given to Weaver was incorrect, someone really wanted him in a bad way.
Undercover informants = better call Saul!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HewxquptWJ0
You kill half a mans family over hearsay when you want to send a message. I got the message loud and clear, don't do business with people that condone shooting mothers in the face.
Five_Point_Five_Six
08-25-13, 10:32
You are my personal hero of the week.
What bothers me about the Monroe thing is that he doesn't really seem to have the least bit of regret about the whole kill-on-sight illegal death squad participant thing. I'm not sure how you can feel sorry for the death of an innocent mother, yet state you would take the same shot knowing full well that even a novice shooter is taught to verify what is behind a target before shooting at a target. This of course assumes that they were actually shooting at someone other than the person who got their face blown off. You'd have to consult your local mathematician on the odds of that occurrence.
How many top gun snipers have you met that shot people they didn't mean to shoot? How many of these guys get employed with companies like H.S. Precision (yeah, haven't forgotten about that one you ****ers) and Troy? I'd submit to you that anyone who would consider following Ruby Ridge style orders in a domestic law enforcement situation resulting from a missed court date regarding a tax bill charge that the alphabet soup guys admitted on company stationary was bogus would also have no qualms about hitting your block with arty tipped with nerve gas. We know other snipers flat out refused their orders on moral, ethical and legal grounds. Wonder what was up with the A-team, too long ago to blame it on HGH. They're just plain old evil.
You've got to realize that they went after Weaver DEVGRU style over an informant alleging weaver sawed off two shotguns and the fact that Weaver refused to become an informant himself. There was no actual evidence that any of this occurred, all hearsay. When charges were filed the .gov said he was a bank robber with criminal convictions. They lied, they perjured themselves in the indictment. Do you think anyone spent a second in jail over that? Ha. Incidentally Weaver initially came up on alphabet soup radar because a neighbor pissed off because of a property dispute said that Weaver was threatening to kill everyone from the Pope to the CIC. Half his family was killed because some dipshit that lost a $5,100 legal dispute with him said he was a bad guy. Also incidentally the original court date that was given to Weaver was incorrect, someone really wanted him in a bad way.
Undercover informants = better call Saul!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HewxquptWJ0
You kill half a mans family over hearsay when you want to send a message. I got the message loud and clear, don't do business with people that condone shooting mothers in the face.
Spot on bro!
You are my personal hero of the week.
What bothers me about the Monroe thing is that he doesn't really seem to have the least bit of regret about the whole kill-on-sight illegal death squad participant thing. I'm not sure how you can feel sorry for the death of an innocent mother, yet state you would take the same shot knowing full well that even a novice shooter is taught to verify what is behind a target before shooting at a target. This of course assumes that they were actually shooting at someone other than the person who got their face blown off. You'd have to consult your local mathematician on the odds of that occurrence.
How many top gun snipers have you met that shot people they didn't mean to shoot? How many of these guys get employed with companies like H.S. Precision (yeah, haven't forgotten about that one you ****ers) and Troy? I'd submit to you that anyone who would consider following Ruby Ridge style orders in a domestic law enforcement situation resulting from a missed court date regarding a tax bill charge that the alphabet soup guys admitted on company stationary was bogus would also have no qualms about hitting your block with arty tipped with nerve gas. We know other snipers flat out refused their orders on moral, ethical and legal grounds. Wonder what was up with the A-team, too long ago to blame it on HGH. They're just plain old evil.
You've got to realize that they went after Weaver DEVGRU style over an informant alleging weaver sawed off two shotguns and the fact that Weaver refused to become an informant himself. There was no actual evidence that any of this occurred, all hearsay. When charges were filed the .gov said he was a bank robber with criminal convictions. They lied, they perjured themselves in the indictment. Do you think anyone spent a second in jail over that? Ha. Incidentally Weaver initially came up on alphabet soup radar because a neighbor pissed off because of a property dispute said that Weaver was threatening to kill everyone from the Pope to the CIC. Half his family was killed because some dipshit that lost a $5,100 legal dispute with him said he was a bad guy. Also incidentally the original court date that was given to Weaver was incorrect, someone really wanted him in a bad way.
Undercover informants = better call Saul!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HewxquptWJ0
You kill half a mans family over hearsay when you want to send a message. I got the message loud and clear, don't do business with people that condone shooting mothers in the face.
You said it brother!
I wonder who Troy is teaching LEO's to use 'Asymmetric Warfare' against? The mind - it does wander... and wonder ...
Sovereign Citizen movement is the biggest boogieman to LEOs at this time. All conspiracies aside, this is the most likely target.
And now we have escalated to claiming Troy is training LEO to fight against us... Wow....
Army Chief
08-26-13, 08:06
It is getting a little silly. Troy hasn't made the best of decisions, and there are only so many ways for them to try to explain themselves, but I think it is a stretch to infer that they are now to be treated as an adversary or a Pariah. More like one of our dumber friends, perhaps, but that isn't a huge departure from where we were before this scandal. They do some things well. They do some things well-enough. I seriousky doubt that our Troy backup irons are going to work any less effectively, now that they've been embarrassed and humiliated.
Not glossing over the potentially insidious nature of some of these careless associations. Just striving for some more useful perspective.
AC
Troy has lost me as a customer due to keeping this guy on their staff and their poor vetting and hiring practices.
Nightvisionary
08-26-13, 13:03
You are my personal hero of the week.
What bothers me about the Monroe thing is that he doesn't really seem to have the least bit of regret about the whole kill-on-sight illegal death squad participant thing. I'm not sure how you can feel sorry for the death of an innocent mother, yet state you would take the same shot knowing full well that even a novice shooter is taught to verify what is behind a target before shooting at a target. This of course assumes that they were actually shooting at someone other than the person who got their face blown off. You'd have to consult your local mathematician on the odds of that occurrence.
How many top gun snipers have you met that shot people they didn't mean to shoot? How many of these guys get employed with companies like H.S. Precision (yeah, haven't forgotten about that one you ****ers) and Troy? I'd submit to you that anyone who would consider following Ruby Ridge style orders in a domestic law enforcement situation resulting from a missed court date regarding a tax bill charge that the alphabet soup guys admitted on company stationary was bogus would also have no qualms about hitting your block with arty tipped with nerve gas. We know other snipers flat out refused their orders on moral, ethical and legal grounds. Wonder what was up with the A-team, too long ago to blame it on HGH. They're just plain old evil.
You've got to realize that they went after Weaver DEVGRU style over an informant alleging weaver sawed off two shotguns and the fact that Weaver refused to become an informant himself. There was no actual evidence that any of this occurred, all hearsay. When charges were filed the .gov said he was a bank robber with criminal convictions. They lied, they perjured themselves in the indictment. Do you think anyone spent a second in jail over that? Ha. Incidentally Weaver initially came up on alphabet soup radar because a neighbor pissed off because of a property dispute said that Weaver was threatening to kill everyone from the Pope to the CIC. Half his family was killed because some dipshit that lost a $5,100 legal dispute with him said he was a bad guy. Also incidentally the original court date that was given to Weaver was incorrect, someone really wanted him in a bad way.
Undercover informants = better call Saul!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HewxquptWJ0
You kill half a mans family over hearsay when you want to send a message. I got the message loud and clear, don't do business with people that condone shooting mothers in the face.
Thanks for spelling this out for those who have forgotten or were to young to remember. Excellent post.
TurretGunner
08-26-13, 14:29
I propose that we all start going through the employment records of every Forearms related company. Every employee should be scrutinized and we will can then demand from each company that they terminate any objectionable employees and pay the amount of salary they received to the NRA....
Come on guys. Lets get serious. While I agree with the OP, this has become a witch-hunt. I have seen people on this thread complaining about bolt carriers and dicks sporting goods.
Troy Industries has been a respected manufacturer of AR accessories for years now. And in a couple days you all have turned on them like a pack of hyenas on an injured pup. It is no wonder we are in such dire straits politically. We kill our own if they show the slightest mistake.
If BCM were to Hire Harry Reid as their spokesperson, and the Brady Campaign to do their finances... would you still buy from them?
The dude is a coward, Liar, and would be murderer... had Lon not got the shot off first. These are the type of people you want training other LEO's/Military/Civilians? That is company suicide.
The President, I.E. Face of the compnay is condoning this. That makes them persona non grata.
So Stop kissing their ass. The president of the company has spun and lied to very people who made them what they are. This is going to destroy their company most likley , and at the very least...finacnialy cripple them. All of Arfcom is already on bored, and add in another dozen or so of the largest gun boards..........and the majority of AR parts purchasers are aware of whats going on. They have no idea the shit they are messing with. Its going to end them, and rightfully so.
TurretGunner
08-26-13, 14:35
I understand your point. And I am as passionate about gun rights as anyone here. My point however is that every company has done something to piss each of us off at one point or another.
Colt has screwed us over in the Past. Smith, Ruger, the list goes on. And all of these in ways much worse than hiring a guy we don't like. They took actual active actions that harmed our rights. Yes we have moved on past that because of the companies taking action to atone for what they did. What makes now different?
People are so wound up over something Troy did (That they then corrected) that they are now digging for any and all reasons to hate them.
That worries me. Because eventually we are going to run out of allies.
I don't Buy colt becuse they are commie union thugs in a pathetic liberal state. They also don't care about their civilians untill their contracts started to dry up. Why the hell would I pay $1200 for a 16" m4 carbine.
S&W was owned by a different crew, was sold, and is now a public traded compnay. What they did in the 90's almost put them out of business, and they know better. It's almost an entirley different compnay
Ruger is dead. Bill ruger died so many will say don't buy from them. The reality is ruger is overpriced junk. The P95 pistol and 10/22 being the only exceptions. Everything else is overpriced or there is something better on the market for the same price.
Troy has not corrected itself. Had they come out, appologized, said they were going to change their hiring practice, and don't support anti's and murderer's it would have been a different story. Instead they decide to spin, lie and deflect any blame. This is worse than not doing anything at all. I hope they all rot and look forward to their liquidation sale.
I will no longer purchase any Troy products due to their stance on Dale Monroe, "We are proud to have him on our team." - Steve Troy
Hiring men who are proud to murder American citizens over the length of a piece of steel, or wood, is revolting. Hiring men who would stomp on the Constitution, ignore their oath, and try to keep you from owning firearms is revolting.
The sooner they're out of business the better.
So Stop kissing their ass. The president of the company has spun and lied to very people who made them what they are. This is going to destroy their company most likley , and at the very least...finacnialy cripple them. All of Arfcom is already on bored, and add in another dozen or so of the largest gun boards..........and the majority of AR parts purchasers are aware of whats going on. They have no idea the shit they are messing with. Its going to end them, and rightfully so.
Forgive me for actually looking at an entire situation instead of just reacting out of emotion.
Dale Monroe did not shoot anyone and stated that he would have shot Randy Weavers Partner who was armed. Not his wife
TurretGunner
08-26-13, 15:59
Have you seen/heard the 4 hour congressional?
If not, then you are ignorant to the facts and what was stated under oath.
Ignoring everything else, The fact that LEO should have never been there in the first place......The Feds created this whole mess based on bogus, heavy handed, and fabricated evidence....... the ROE and their heavy handed use of deady force is more than enough to demonize them.
Like most situations where LEO's are caugh doing something illegal/against policy/reg/protocol/orders, they lied and make up excuses.
They shot a 14 year old in the back... They shot an unarmed women holding a baby....... After Shooting Vicky, they were teasing them over the loudspeaker asking when Vicky was going to make breakfast or how is she doing....... All beacuse Randy did not agree to be an infiltrator to the AB, and over 1/4" on a shotgun barrel.... All those lives wasted over nothing.
Randy was holding a rifle at port arms. He(Monroe) said he would of shot him, beacuse he believed randy was pointing at the helicopter. He said he couldn't see the choper beacuse he was looking through his scope. So he admited that he would have shot him, even though he was not aiming at the chopper based on his admision he was at port arms, and he did not even know where the chopper was. These guys are nothing more than murderous thugs, looking for someone to shoot to get their rocks off.
They screwed up BAD, and the government covered for them, and the people who lost were the Weavers and the American Taxpayers (Suit). Everyone from the guys on the scene to the highest supervisor/SA who allowed that to happen should have been fired/charged criminaly.
Back to the point, You Hire a guy like this to a company that makes virtualy all of its money for the 2nd amend/conservitive/libertarian segment of the civilian population, then how can you not expect people to react this way? It makes you wonder what else they have done or not done that goes against the principles most of us stand for (and have fought, bleed, and died for).
Forgive me for actually looking at an entire situation instead of just reacting out of emotion.
Dale Monroe did not shoot anyone and stated that he would have shot Randy Weavers Partner who was armed. Not his wife
Did he agree to the modified and improper ROE or not?
TurretGunner
08-26-13, 17:14
Did he agree to the modified and improper ROE or not?
BINGO. When every other agency, regional FBI office, and HRT members are saying this is the worst/craziest ROE they have ever heard of........you know they were wrong.
This dude should have been locked up for his actions.
Instead, Troy wants him to instruct other's how to do their craft.
That's like hiring the uni-bomber as a EOD class instructor.
I think thus far, Troy has made it clear where they stand. Unfortunatley, they chose poorly.
Nightvisionary
08-26-13, 17:15
Here is Steve Troy's response from the Troy facebook page concerning Dale Monroe:
The accusations that Mr. Monroe would have taken a shot at Vicki Weaver are false. His Congressional testimony affirms that had he a better vantage point, he was prepared to shoot at Kevin Harris, the armed combatant posing an immediate threat to him, his team, and everyone at the scene.
Tragedy lies in the fact that the shot intended for Kevin Harris reached its target, but also struck Vicki Weaver, positioned out of sight, behind a door. For the past 20 years, Mr. Monroe has shared his experiences across the country through many presentations and a television appearance. During these presentations, he explained the mistakes which led up to the tragedy and the valuable lessons learned from the event. While nothing can change what happened that day, Dale's firsthand account imparts valuable tools to our nation’s law enforcement. I'm confident that his experience at that incident taught him more than the other countless successful missions he completed as an FBI HRT Operator.
It's easy in an emotionally charged situation where a mother's life has been taken, to lose sight of the facts. In our most trying times and failures we have an opportunity to rise above and distinguish ourselves to be people of character and honor. I know Dale Monroe to be such a man.
As a Troy Asymmetric instructor, he has the opportunity to prevent future tragedies like Ruby Ridge. We are proud to have him on our team.
-Steve Troy
Here is Steve Troy's response from the Troy facebook page concerning Dale Monroe:
The accusations that Mr. Monroe would have taken a shot at Vicki Weaver are false. His Congressional testimony affirms that had he a better vantage point, he was prepared to shoot at Kevin Harris, the armed combatant posing an immediate threat to him, his team, and everyone at the scene.
Tragedy lies in the fact that the shot intended for Kevin Harris reached its target, but also struck Vicki Weaver, positioned out of sight, behind a door. For the past 20 years, Mr. Monroe has shared his experiences across the country through many presentations and a television appearance. During these presentations, he explained the mistakes which led up to the tragedy and the valuable lessons learned from the event. While nothing can change what happened that day, Dale's firsthand account imparts valuable tools to our nation’s law enforcement. I'm confident that his experience at that incident taught him more than the other countless successful missions he completed as an FBI HRT Operator.
It's easy in an emotionally charged situation where a mother's life has been taken, to lose sight of the facts. In our most trying times and failures we have an opportunity to rise above and distinguish ourselves to be people of character and honor. I know Dale Monroe to be such a man.
As a Troy Asymmetric instructor, he has the opportunity to prevent future tragedies like Ruby Ridge. We are proud to have him on our team.
-Steve Troy
So is Mr. Troy saying that Monroe tells his classes that the FBI was wrong, the modified ROE were wrong and that the Weaver's never should've been targeted? Does Monroe admit that the Weaver's civil rights were violated? :confused:
Here is Steve Troy's response from the Troy facebook page concerning Dale Monroe:
The accusations that Mr. Monroe would have taken a shot at Vicki Weaver are false. His Congressional testimony affirms that had he a better vantage point, he was prepared to shoot at Kevin Harris, the armed combatant posing an immediate threat to him, his team, and everyone at the scene.
Tragedy lies in the fact that the shot intended for Kevin Harris reached its target, but also struck Vicki Weaver, positioned out of sight, behind a door. For the past 20 years, Mr. Monroe has shared his experiences across the country through many presentations and a television appearance. During these presentations, he explained the mistakes which led up to the tragedy and the valuable lessons learned from the event. While nothing can change what happened that day, Dale's firsthand account imparts valuable tools to our nation’s law enforcement. I'm confident that his experience at that incident taught him more than the other countless successful missions he completed as an FBI HRT Operator.
It's easy in an emotionally charged situation where a mother's life has been taken, to lose sight of the facts. In our most trying times and failures we have an opportunity to rise above and distinguish ourselves to be people of character and honor. I know Dale Monroe to be such a man.
As a Troy Asymmetric instructor, he has the opportunity to prevent future tragedies like Ruby Ridge. We are proud to have him on our team.
-Steve Troy
Well that part simply isn't true EXCEPT under the unique ROE being discussed.
But it IS a definitive answer from Troy and a clear cut position of where they stand on the matter. The rest of us may now decide accordingly.
Here is Steve Troy's response from the Troy facebook page concerning Dale Monroe:
The accusations that Mr. Monroe would have taken a shot at Vicki Weaver are false. His Congressional testimony affirms that had he a better vantage point, he was prepared to shoot at Kevin Harris, the armed combatant posing an immediate threat to him, his team, and everyone at the scene.
What a load of BS.
Hey hire whoever you want, but do not lie and distort the facts to justify it.
The latest:
I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to members of this forum. Troy Asymmetric, part of the “World of Troy,” is a business entity with a director who until this past week, held exclusive hiring authority. I am its owner, it bears my name and as we have witnessed in recent days, effects public opinion of all Troy divisions. Earlier this week, I terminated an instructor who did not support the Second Amendment as ardently as I and members of the community do.
Troy Asymmetric provides training to military and law enforcement personnel. If you spend 5 seconds on the website you’ll see a graphical depiction of a bomb explosion - the primary focus of the company. Take a moment to read the course list and you’ll note a common theme: training pertaining to explosions, bomb threats, post-blast crime scenes, incident command and crisis management. Instructors’ primary areas of expertise lie in the “bomb world,” with EOD experience, critical incident response, and tactical decision making. Some posters on the forum have said we only train “Jack Booted Thugs” and there is a secret agenda. These same posters conveniently ignore Troy Prepared:www.troyprepared.com. Troy Asymmetric to this date has offered no firearms training for Gov’t and LE, but in comparison, Troy Prepared has always offered firearms training to qualified civilians. From a factual, non-emotional context, it is impossible to draw the conclusion that we somehow do not support the Second Amendment and are only training “secret army”.
On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer. He was fortunate not to have to take a life at this engagement. Special Agent Horiuchi made the regrettable shot, a mistake for which he will never be forgiven. Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled “Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Dale has not committed a criminal act, he answered all questions honestly, he did not cover anything up and he did not shoot anyone at Ruby Ridge. Dale was asked to join TA for his critical incident management expertise. Dale was never slated by TA for firearms instruction.
We all know from our biggest failures come the greatest lessons in life. Providing training that is relevant with experienced, qualified instructors can prevent a tragedy like Ruby Ridge. Dale will be able to deliver this powerful message and lessons learned in crisis management and incident command. I am driven and passionate about bringing effective change through pertinent training and speakers that have lived through these nightmares. Many times I have seen posts in forums that state “if you weren’t there then SDASTFU”, with that same school of thought, there is no one better than Dale to speak about tragedies like Ruby Ridge.
I have been a longtime and outspoken supporter of the Second Amendment. I always choose to do what’s right, even if my stance goes against others opinion. I will not throw this man to the wolves as he has demonstrated throughout his life high integrity and honor. I know most of those who would disagree are using this forum to voice your anger towards the United States Government. In some cases that anger is justified. The Ruby Ridge tragedy and the loss of life there make no bigger example of abuse of power and Government gone wrong. However, I disagree with your personal attacks on my family and company as we are not the Government and we are not training “Jack Booted Thugs”. I am a patriot and I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States, all of it. Those who have taken that same oath recognize the importance of keeping it. Thank you. -Steve Troy
The latest:
Well that's an interesting take on the matter. I'd sure like to see a transcript or hear Mr. Monroe say these things attributed to him.
Yes most of my invective is directed at the people who make decisions like Ruby Ridge. The past few months have proven that the U.S. Gov't hasn't learned a damned thing from R.R. or Waco, just a slight alteration in TTP's.
Not everything that can be done, should be done. :(
vicious_cb
08-26-13, 23:54
Wait does Troy still even make anything that other companies products and do better or cheaper?
On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer.
But you can DECIDE if things are correct and several DID. Obviously the owner of Troy doesn't seem to have access to basic information regarding this matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#The_siege_and_controversy
The Ruby Ridge Rules of Engagement (ROE) had been drawn up on the basis of reports from the headquarters of the USMS and FBI, bolstered by unconfirmed news media accounts accepted by HQ, that exaggerated the threat posed by the Weavers.
1. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed, if the shot can be taken without endangering any children.
2. If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, and is not attempting to surrender, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual.
3. If compromised by any animal, particularly the dogs, that animal should be eliminated.
4. Any subjects other than Randall Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin Harris, presenting threats of death or grievous bodily harm, the FBI rules of deadly force are in effect. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another.
Standard deadly force policy of the FBI was: "Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another, when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied."[47] Under the Ruby Ridge Rules of engagement 3 and 4, the Weaver dogs, the Weaver children, and third parties were subject to the standard deadly force policy and could only be shot in self-defense if they presented a danger of death or grievous bodily harm. However, under the Ruby Ridge ROE 1 and 2, deadly force against the Weaver adults should be used without the justification of defense and without any verbal warning.
The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.[48] A later Senate report criticized the ROE as "virtual shoot-on-sight orders.
This is really easy stuff and no "had a hard job and did their duty" amount of deflection can justify any of it. That Monroe gives presentations such as “Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge” is about as offensive as known terrorists such as Bill Ayers, who killed a LEO while a member of the Weather Underground, becoming a professor at the University of Illinois.
If Monroe really learned anything at Ruby Ridge, it should have been he was not fit to hold such a position of responsibility given the decision he and other HRT snipers made in adopting ROE that other members of the LE community knew to reject and recognized as a violation of standard FBI rules of engagement. Given his lack of understanding why things like the standard FBI rules of engagement exist in the first place during Ruby Ridge, he is profoundly UNFIT to train anyone, especially law enforcement.
Dale Monroe is the "don't" example. The fact that he didn't kill anybody while abiding by the special rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge is about as meaningless as the fact that Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground didn't kill people with every one of the bombs they exploded. It doesn't mean they weren't willing, it doesn't mean they weren't wrong.
TurretGunner
08-27-13, 06:27
They are fried.
From BARFCOM
"So, you really think that hiring someone who's only admitted barrier between shooting, or not shooting, a woman holding a baby was reaction time?
You believe that a person who agrees with, supports and defends, the unlawful shooting a woman, with a baby in her arms, as 'an accident' that was the result of attempting to shoot a man in the back is someone'(who was mis-identified and running away) upon whom you lay a wreath of superiority and decision making skills on par with the necessary vision for excellence in decision making skills in crisis situations?
That is the level of exceptional integrity and force of character that you feel represents your company and personal view of gun ownership?
That person carries the same depth of character to defend the Constitution as those 'who have taken the same oath' as you?
Tell us, Steve, do you realize that this says about your own integrity, morality, and decision making skills?
Dale supports, defends and holds harmless Lon Horiuchi. You support, defend and hold harmless Dale's support of Lon Horiuchi. Therefore, you support, defend, and hold harmless Lon Horichi.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
TRG"
They must be banking on Monroe being able to bring them just as much or more business then they will lose.
Good Luck seeing that happen. Look forward to seeing the CDNN liquidation blowout in 6-9 months.
Belmont31R
08-27-13, 07:10
Yep. Crappy statement there. Other law enforcement there saw the modified ROE for what it was and refused to use it by sticking with the standard FBI rules.
Monroe and Horiuchi stuck with the unconstitutional modified ROE and defended its use even well after the incident when everyone else rightly said it was wrong.
As critical as I can be of LE there are still a lot of good guys, and I'm glad the other people there chose to ignore the shoot on site ROE. There has to be a lot of alternatives to the likes of Dale and Lon to be a face for your company. How those two, specifically, can get hired and these companies don't see anything wrong with it Ill never know.
So in short...F HS Precision and F Troy Industries.
Last thing...the comment about duty and wearing a uniform is disturbing. You have a duty to refuse illegal orders and not partake in illegal acts. Wearing a uniform is not an excuse to murder people because your superior said it was ok. We roundly rejected that excuse and shot a lot of Nazis who tried that line.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 07:16
I honestly do not know if we've got all of our facts and impressions right on this one, since this thing seems to have taken on a life of its own, but I think it is fairly apparent that Troy is finding a way to alienate most of his customer base with all of these ill-received explanations and follow-ups. It is only making things worse.
He probably would have been better off making a single coherent statement and backing off of the issue entirely, because it looks to me like he's just spent several hours chumming the waters, only to discover that the sharks have begun circling the boat in large numbers and he's managed to run himself completely out of fuel.
It's going to be a long swim back to shore.
Or, perhaps a very short one.
Either way, it's sad.
AC
I honestly do not know if we've got all of our facts and impressions right on this one, since this thing seems to have taken on a life of its own,
I think this is the key that most people are missing. People are now making claims along the lines of Troy supporting the shooting of shooting of Ms. Weaver. I am amazed at how people are unable to step back and look at a situation without getting emotional.
One of the problems is that Randy Weaver has become a bit of a folk hero in the Gun community. I have always had a problem with this.
I mean yeah he was screwed over in all of this. But some people like to conveniently forget a few details.
Weaver and Co. Killed an Officer. There is debate on who fired first, and we will never know the truth here. But the bloodshed was not all one sided. A number of you here are officer, after one of your own was gunned down how would you have reacted in the situation? Gone home and called it a day? No.
Lets also not forget that he has ties to what many (including myself( consider terrorist organizations. The government tried to make him sound worse than he was. But the guy was still a white supremacist piece of crap.
Honestly I don't think this situation has as much to do with the specifics of all of this. But that fact that the person in question was involved in something that has taken on a cult like following.
montanadave
08-27-13, 07:55
I'm not comfortable with trying to characterize Randy Weaver as some innocent, hapless victim in the Ruby Ridge tragedy, either.
But whether Weaver was a good guy, a bad guy, or hanging out in between, the FBI and the other federal, state, and local law enforcement officers are supposed to be the good guys . . . period.
And there were some LEOs out there that clearly were not good guys, violated the public trust, and placed a burden on their fellow officers that persists today.
.46caliber
08-27-13, 08:47
I honestly do not know if we've got all of our facts and impressions right on this one, since this thing seems to have taken on a life of its own, but I think it is fairly apparent that Troy is finding a way to alienate most of his customer base with all of these ill-received explanations and follow-ups. It is only making things worse.
He probably would have been better off making a single coherent statement and backing off of the issue entirely, because it looks to me like he's just spent several hours chumming the waters, only to discover that the sharks have begun circling the boat in large numbers and he's managed to run himself completely out of fuel.
It's going to be a long swim back to shore.
Or, perhaps a very short one.
Either way, it's sad.
AC
Sometimes you have to know when to shut your trap. It seems like with every statement comes more negative reaction.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
TurretGunner
08-27-13, 10:25
I think this is the key that most people are missing. People are now making claims along the lines of Troy supporting the shooting of shooting of Ms. Weaver. I am amazed at how people are unable to step back and look at a situation without getting emotional.
One of the problems is that Randy Weaver has become a bit of a folk hero in the Gun community. I have always had a problem with this.
I mean yeah he was screwed over in all of this. But some people like to conveniently forget a few details.
Weaver and Co. Killed an Officer. There is debate on who fired first, and we will never know the truth here. But the bloodshed was not all one sided. A number of you here are officer, after one of your own was gunned down how would you have reacted in the situation? Gone home and called it a day? No.
Lets also not forget that he has ties to what many (including myself( consider terrorist organizations. The government tried to make him sound worse than he was. But the guy was still a white supremacist piece of crap.
Honestly I don't think this situation has as much to do with the specifics of all of this. But that fact that the person in question was involved in something that has taken on a cult like following.
You are wrong and are quickly becoming a LEO appologisit around here. You don't even know what you are talking about dude. He was Persecuted beacuse he WOULD NOT JOIN/INFULTRATE the Aryan Brotherbood.
Personaly, I don't blame the US Marshals as much as the FBI HRT. They were there to execute a warrant (that was erronious, and missing key facts that would have led the grand jury to not indict Randy for a failure to appear). However, they decided to shoot the dog, and were fired on as a result. They never identified themselves and what happened is a he said she said. I highly doubt some 14 year old kid is just going to start shooting at people for no reason.
When Weaver did not appear in court on February 20, the judge issued a bench warrant for failure to appear in court. On February 26, Ken Keller, a reporter for the Kootenai Valley Times, telephoned the U.S. Probation Office and asked if the reason that Weaver did not show in court on February 20 was because the letter sent to him by Richins had the incorrect date. Upon finding a copy of the letter, the Chief Probation Officer, Terrence Hummel, contacted the judge’s clerk and informed them of the incorrect date in the letter. Hummel also contacted the U.S. Marshals Service and Weaver’s attorney informing them of the error. The judge, however, refused to withdraw the bench warrant. The U.S. Marshals Service did agree to put off executing the warrant until after March 20 to see if Weaver would show up in court on that day. If he were to show up on March 20, the DOJ claimed that all indications are that the warrant would have been dropped.[14] Instead of waiting to see if Weaver would show up on March 20, however, the U.S. Attorney’s Office (USAO) called a grand jury on March 14. The USAO failed to provide Richins’ erroneous letter which proved that Weaver had been misinformed about his summons to Federal Court as evidence to the grand jury and the grand jury issued an indictment for failure to appear.
On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:
OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the
shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."
- Something to consider, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson is also the person who CREATED the FBI HRT. I say he might have some insight into its TTP's.
The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.
So you condone the officers since one of them was shot? Had they not been there in the first place, no one would have been shot. Had they not tried to corner Randy into informing or being charged with BS federal crime over 1/4" he was not aware of (Barrel was 18", OAL was less than 26"), they would still be alive. Had they waited for randy to come to town or pulled him over to execute the warrant, they would still be alive. Had the cops chose not to shoot the dog and initate deady force, they would still be alive. Had they not shot people in the back, maybe they would have a defense.
They used a robot to take a phone up to talk to a negoitator. The robot had a saw-ed off shotty, pointed at the phone. They then mocked the weavers after their son was killed and Vicky was murdered by Lon. They were asking what she made for breakfast and shit like that, knowning she was killed the day before.
Any compnay, person, agent,ect who defends the actions of these tyranous murderous.....gets lumped into the same category as far as I'm concerned. This is a black and white issue.
After reading your post again, something stuck. You say that "Weaver and Co. Killed an Officer. There is debate on who fired first, and we will never know the truth here. But the bloodshed was not all one sided. A number of you here are officer, after one of your own was gunned down how would you have reacted in the situation? Gone home and called it a day? No." So what, not you propose revenge and getting even is warranted? It's ok to kill innocent people beacuse they defended themselves from a heavy handed and ILLEGAL (according the the investigation, congressional, FBI Overwatch, and bassicaly everyone who has reviewd the case in full) actions of the government. This is the kind of Law enforcement you want in this country? Agents of the Law, are supposed to follow the law.They set the example that others are to follow. Otherwise, what is the point in the first place?
You think it's ok to hire Lon as a trainer? The onnly difference between Monroe and Lon, is that Lon was able to get the shot off first.
It has become a cult like following, beacuse it is one of the biggest black eyes on the federal government since the end of WW2. Shit like this is not suposed to happen. This is not the Soviet Union or Communist China where killing civilians is no big deal.
TurretGunner beat me to the punch. Nice post.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 10:59
You are wrong and are quickly becoming a LEO appologisit around here. You don't even know what you are talking about.
I have no idea if you have all of your facts straight here, or not. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you do. It really doesn't matter.
What I do know is that your time with us is going to be short if you continue to engage your fellow members in this fashion. It is inflammatory, accusatory and confrontational. We have discussed this before.
How would you now have kwelz respond to this? "Oh, you're right. I don't know what I was even thinking." Doubtful. He's been told that he is wrong, that he is an apologist and that he has no idea what he is talking about. If you spoke that way to him at the range, you would probably get your ass kicked, and deservedly so. Think about it.
I do not mean to be harsh, brother, but I do need to make sure that this message is clearly-received. Stop using the word "you" when replying to people, and stay on the issues. I think that might be especially beneficial in your case, and I do want to see you thrive here and enjoy your membership like everyone else. That isn't going to happen if this kind of crap continues.
Enough said. Let us speak no more about this.
AC
Edited since AC posted before me.
How about we all call peace on this and go back to discussing the issue at hand.
TurretGunner
08-27-13, 11:22
I have no idea if you have all of your facts straight here, or not. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you do. It really doesn't matter.
What I do know is that your time with us is going to be short if you continue to engage your fellow members in this fashion. It is inflammatory, accusatory and confrontational. We have discussed this before.
How would you now have kwelz respond to this? "Oh, you're right. I don't know what I was even thinking." Doubtful. He's been told that he is wrong, that he is an apologist and that he has no idea what he is talking about. If you spoke that way to him at the range, you would probably get your ass kicked, and deservedly so. Think about it.
I do not mean to be harsh, brother, but I do need to make sure that this message is clearly-received. Stop using the word "you" when replying to people, and stay on the issues. I think that might be especially beneficial in your case, and I do want to see you thrive here and enjoy your membership like everyone else. That isn't going to happen if this kind of crap continues.
Enough said. Let us speak no more about this.
AC
How else would you respond to someone, when their facts are completley false, and their conclusions are made omiting key facts and pieces?
I type on the internet, exactly how I speak to people in real life. I am a direct person, and I will challenge people when they are either wrong, miss-informed, or outright lying. I have yet to have my "ass-kicked" over it, most people are wiser than that after having their arguements torn to shreds.
There is nothing personal here, people should either stand by their words, or stay silent. If they are wrong, then admit they are wrong and move forward. No one is perfect.
If someone does not know the facts or the situation, they they should not comment out of ignorance. If they chose to, then that opens them up for critisisim. How can we have an open and meaningfull discussuon if we cannot debate what has been said, and the validity of those who said it?
When someone uses I or I'm before a post, then how is using Your to reference their opinion, (evident by their use of I/I'M) inflamitory/confrinational? I am not bing rhetorical, just asking an honest question.
I am still at peace with kwelz and anyone who dissagrees. I have no ill will or hatred towards you. I do and will make an arguement when they present false "facts" or try to paint the situation ignoring the key facts in the situation.
I (no pun) want us to be able to have a rational and civil disscusion. I do not feel my previous post was derogitory or false.
With respect to the mods and the other posters, I will bow out here. Facts have been stated and the readers can come to their own conclusions. No need to throw gas on the fire. I am just unsure how one can even discuss or debate the topics without confronting them on their statements.
ramairthree
08-27-13, 11:41
You are wrong and are quickly becoming a LEO appologisit around here. You don't even know what you are talking about dude. He was Persecuted beacuse he WOULD NOT JOIN/INFULTRATE the Aryan Brotherbood.
Personaly, I don't blame the US Marshals as much as the FBI HRT. They were there to execute a warrant (that was erronious, and missing key facts that would have led the grand jury to not indict Randy for a failure to appear). However, they decided to shoot the dog, and were fired on as a result. They never identified themselves and what happened is a he said she said. I highly doubt some 14 year old kid is just going to start shooting at people for no reason.
When Weaver did not appear in court on February 20, the judge issued a bench warrant for failure to appear in court. On February 26, Ken Keller, a reporter for the Kootenai Valley Times, telephoned the U.S. Probation Office and asked if the reason that Weaver did not show in court on February 20 was because the letter sent to him by Richins had the incorrect date. Upon finding a copy of the letter, the Chief Probation Officer, Terrence Hummel, contacted the judge’s clerk and informed them of the incorrect date in the letter. Hummel also contacted the U.S. Marshals Service and Weaver’s attorney informing them of the error. The judge, however, refused to withdraw the bench warrant. The U.S. Marshals Service did agree to put off executing the warrant until after March 20 to see if Weaver would show up in court on that day. If he were to show up on March 20, the DOJ claimed that all indications are that the warrant would have been dropped.[14] Instead of waiting to see if Weaver would show up on March 20, however, the U.S. Attorney’s Office (USAO) called a grand jury on March 14. The USAO failed to provide Richins’ erroneous letter which proved that Weaver had been misinformed about his summons to Federal Court as evidence to the grand jury and the grand jury issued an indictment for failure to appear.
On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:
OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the
shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."
- Something to consider, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson is also the person who CREATED the FBI HRT. I say he might have some insight into its TTP's.
The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.
So you condone the officers since one of them was shot? Had they not been there in the first place, no one would have been shot. Had they not tried to corner Randy into informing or being charged with BS federal crime over 1/4" he was not aware of (Barrel was 18", OAL was less than 26"), they would still be alive. Had they waited for randy to come to town or pulled him over to execute the warrant, they would still be alive. Had the cops chose not to shoot the dog and initate deady force, they would still be alive. Had they not shot people in the back, maybe they would have a defense.
They used a robot to take a phone up to talk to a negoitator. The robot had a saw-ed off shotty, pointed at the phone. They then mocked the weavers after their son was killed and Vicky was murdered by Lon. They were asking what she made for breakfast and shit like that, knowning she was killed the day before.
Any compnay, person, agent,ect who defends the actions of these tyranous murderous.....gets lumped into the same category as far as I'm concerned. This is a black and white issue.
After reading your post again, something stuck. You say that "Weaver and Co. Killed an Officer. There is debate on who fired first, and we will never know the truth here. But the bloodshed was not all one sided. A number of you here are officer, after one of your own was gunned down how would you have reacted in the situation? Gone home and called it a day? No." So what, not you propose revenge and getting even is warranted? It's ok to kill innocent people beacuse they defended themselves from a heavy handed and ILLEGAL (according the the investigation, congressional, FBI Overwatch, and bassicaly everyone who has reviewd the case in full) actions of the government. This is the kind of Law enforcement you want in this country? Agents of the Law, are supposed to follow the law.They set the example that others are to follow. Otherwise, what is the point in the first place?
You think it's ok to hire Lon as a trainer? The onnly difference between Monroe and Lon, is that Lon was able to get the shot off first.
It has become a cult like following, beacuse it is one of the biggest black eyes on the federal government since the end of WW2. Shit like this is not suposed to happen. This is not the Soviet Union or Communist China where killing civilians is no big deal.
Thank you for the time to put in all this information.
Someone posted Weaver was a White Nazi piece of crap.
I thought he was one of those dudes that moved to the middle of nowhere to be away from crime and minorities.
People from all over the political spectrum make where to live choices based on local crime and population every day when choosing where to buy a house, where to send their kids to school, etc. (and while their may be some racial motivation to this are not racists). Maybe he was extreme by going to the middle of nowhere instead of a nice subdivision, or another county.
Maybe I am wrong, but my impression is he was at worst what could be called a separatist / prepper and the govt. and media tried to make him look like a very bad guy.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 11:55
TG,
I really did not wish to delve any further deeper into this, but if you're genuinely asking, then I'm happy to help.
Watch this ...
You are wrong and are quickly becoming a LEO appologisit around here. You don't even know what you are talking about dude. He was Persecuted beacuse he WOULD NOT JOIN/INFULTRATE the Aryan Brotherbood.
Tone conveyed = you're an effing idiot.
Likely response = go engage in self-copulation.
Now, apply a bit of "you" elimination and polishing-up, and you get this ...
I see things much differently. The points made here seem more like a defense of the LEO response than a consideration of the known facts. From my perspective, the real issues are ....
Tone conveyed = we disagree, but I'm focusing on the issues.
Likely response = ok, we can talk about this.
The feedback that consistently comes back against you and a few others here who are regularly peeing on the electric fence is that opinions are stated strongly, in an in-your-face fashion and with absolutely no regard or tolerance for competing views. Diatribes versus discussion points. That shuts people off, or draws them into a confrontation. Both are unfortunate, because they completely derail threads and shut-down otherwise valuable exchanges.
It's not what is being said that is creating the issue. It is how it is being said. Either that makes sense, or it strikes you as ridiculously touchy-feely. If the latter, then we are bound to find ourselves here again soon.
Me? I'd prefer to talk about things that we both happen to enjoy a lot more. Like guns and the shooting thereof. ;)
AC
and minorities.
Comments like this make me wonder if I should stay on this forum.
It's any easy decision gentlemen, either support Troy and buy their products or take your hard earned money elsewhere. Continuing to argue of the travesty that was Ruby Ridge will not help us as a whole. What's done is done.
I personally will no longer support Troy or recommend their products to anyone. But this saddens me because we need as many supporters as possible to strengthen our community, we can ill afford to lose a company that supports the 2A but at the same we cannot afford to keep a company that hires people of questionable backgrounds like the individuals discussed in this thread.
theblackknight
08-27-13, 12:22
https://sphotos-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/q71/1237787_641431112548409_1469696565_n.jpg
Belmont31R
08-27-13, 12:25
The micro managing of posts here is ridiculous. You is the 18th most common word in the English language.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_common_words_in_English
Stop using the word "you" when you reply to people...
This is often a weak spot of mine and I probably deserved to hear about it from someone the past week. Fortunately I'm usually (though not always) good at self-correction and will be watching it in the future brother.
By the way, he was addressed as "you" in the above response so someone else better watch it as well.
:D
Army Chief
08-27-13, 12:45
This is often a weak spot of mine and I probably deserved to hear about it from someone the past week. Fortunately I'm usually (though not always) good at self-correction and will be watching it in the future brother.
By the way, he was addressed as "you" in the above response so someone else better watch it as well.
:D
Ok, smart guy -- you got me. :P
It isn't the word itself, of course, but rather the mode in which is employed. I've simply found that most emerging skirmishes contain a liberal sprinkling of folks putting words into each other's mouths, and "you" struck me as a common denominator.
AC
P.S. I went back and fixed it for, uh, everybody. ;)
I've simply found that most emerging skirmishes contain a liberal sprinkling of folks putting words into each other's mouths, and "you" struck me as a common denominator.
See I knew you were ticked but just didn't say anything. Now I feel even worse.
Kidding aside I'll agree that there does seem to be excessive piling on here. While some interesting and even damning revelations have emerged the damage is now done and at this point some are simply reveling in their potential destruction.
Now that said it's also probably not likely another manufacturer will make any similar unwise moves having seen this rather brutal example of what can swiftly happen, so in some ways it is a positive of sorts.
I honestly do not know if we've got all of our facts and impressions right on this one, since this thing seems to have taken on a life of its own, but I think it is fairly apparent that Troy is finding a way to alienate most of his customer base with all of these ill-received explanations and follow-ups. It is only making things worse.
He probably would have been better off making a single coherent statement and backing off of the issue entirely, because it looks to me like he's just spent several hours chumming the waters, only to discover that the sharks have begun circling the boat in large numbers and he's managed to run himself completely out of fuel.
It's going to be a long swim back to shore.
Or, perhaps a very short one.
Either way, it's sad.
AC
The only facts being jumbled is the assertion that both Horiuchi and Monroe DELIBERATELY targeted Vicki Weaver. Both claim they were targeting Kevin Harris. Of course many, many people don't believe those assertions.
However there is NO CONFUSION about the special ROE that were put in place and that they strongly conflicted with the standard FBI ROE and for that reason many of the people involved refused to operate under anything other than the standard FBI ROE.
The HRT FBI snipers seem to be a significant exception and we saw first hand what happens with "shoot on sight" orders.
Doc Safari
08-27-13, 13:12
Comments like this make me wonder if I should stay on this forum.
Well, don't take that too harshly. Although Randy Weaver was not a white supremacist he was a white separatist. He believed the races are better off not mixing for this most part. So in a way he was trying to get away from minorities.
Now that said it's also probably not likely another manufacturer will make any similar unwise moves having seen this rather brutal example of what can swiftly happen, so in some ways it is a positive of sorts.
Manufacturers could just start a poll in GD, of potential candidates & let us M4C members decide. That might save them a lot of grief. :p
Sent via Tapatalk
Army Chief
08-27-13, 13:19
Well, don't take that too harshly. Although Randy Weaver was not a white supremacist he was a white separatist. He believed the races are better off not mixing for this most part. So in a way he was trying to get away from minorities.
Likely right, but I'm increasingly more-inclined to reframe these issues in terms of culture, rather than race. By and large, I'd like to think that We The People are over the pigmentation issues that haunted our grandparents, but nobody -- of any shade -- wants to live among certain subcultures, ridden by crime, violence and poverty. It can be a subtle distinction to make, but perhaps that is why it is also an important one to make.
AC
Likely right, but I'm increasingly more-inclined to reframe these issues in terms of culture, rather than race. By and large, I'd like to think that We The People are over the pigmentation issues that haunted our grandparents, but nobody -- of any shade -- wants to live among certain subcultures, ridden by crime, violence and poverty. It can be a subtle distinction to make, but perhaps that is why it is also an important one to make.
AC
Lots of truth here.
Weaver and Co. Killed an Officer. There is debate on who fired first, and we will never know the truth here. But the bloodshed was not all one sided. A number of you here are officer, after one of your own was gunned down how would you have reacted in the situation? Gone home and called it a day? No.
Actually the fact of the matter is the US Marshalls shot FIRST when they shot Sam Weavers dog. Sam Weaver and Kevin Harris then fired on US Marshalls and eventually Sam Weaver was shot in the back as he ran for home. FBI investigators were the first to conclude that the original report fired by the Marshalls was not supported by evidence.
Lets also not forget that he has ties to what many (including myself( consider terrorist organizations. The government tried to make him sound worse than he was. But the guy was still a white supremacist piece of crap.
Honestly I don't think this situation has as much to do with the specifics of all of this. But that fact that the person in question was involved in something that has taken on a cult like following.
Randy Weaver as a separatist, not the kind of racist most think of. There is a distinction. He did attend an Aryan Nations meeting but never joined. It was as a result of his attendance of the AN meeting that the FBI tried to get him to join the organization as an informant.
Personally I don't see much difference between Randy Weaver being a separatist and any member of the NAACP who are also racists and quite often separatist.
And while I don't think he deserves a "special citizen" award, he's hardly the KKK hood wearing terrorists most try to describe him as . He was in fact a member of special forces, something usually deliberately overlooked.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/2.html
Despite the growing passion between Randy and Vicki, the war in Vietnam was beginning to escalate and Randy had a strong desire to fight for his country. In October of 1968 he said his good byes to Vicki, dropped out of school and joined the United States Army. Randy excelled in the military and quickly qualified for the Green Berets. The training is extremely demanding. Candidates must learn to survive with little food and equipment in the harshest of conditions, while becoming an expert in all forms of combat weapons and explosives. Randy again excelled and was promoted to the rank of sergeant following his training.
Randy's first assignment was at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. While most would have relished in the state side duty, he highly resented it. Randy could not understand the point of going through all the special training and not being able to put any of it to use. Friends later said that he became bitter over the fact that men who wanted nothing to do with the war were being sent over every day, and yet he, a trained warrior who had volunteered to go, sat at an Army base with minimal duties. As Randy waited for combat duty, Vicki Jordison was finishing her college studies, earning a two-year degree in business and was busy securing a job at the United Way.
In 1970 Randy secured a temporary leave from Fort Bragg and returned to his hometown for a visit. He had already decided to finish up his duties with the Army as quickly as possible and wanted to inform his family of his plans. It did not take long for him to look up Vicki and the two picked up where they had left off almost two years earlier. Within weeks, they were engaged to marry.
Vicki's family was concerned when they learned of the couple's quick engagement. In their eyes, the two had not courted long enough and were rushing into something for which they both were not prepared. Vicki explained to her family that she truly loved Randy and that they would have probably married years earlier if Randy had not enlisted in the military. In striving to keep their daughter happy, Vicki's family relented and gave the couple their blessing.
On October 8, 1971, following three years of duty, Randy Weaver received an honorable discharge from the Army and moved back home. One month later, in November of 1971, Randy and Vicki were wed during a small ceremony at the First Congregationalist Church in Fort Dodge, Iowa. In an attempt to please Vicki's family, two ministers conducted the ceremony, one from the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints and the other a Congregationalist pastor.
Following the wedding the newlyweds moved into a small apartment two hours east of Fort Dodge, in Cedar Falls. Randy enrolled at the University of Northern Iowa to take criminal justice classes, intending to become an FBI agent. Nonetheless, the young couple found the cost of school to be too much for them and Randy eventually dropped out. The couple started selling Amway products to support themselves.
In 1973 the Weavers gave up on their career as Amway marketers. Randy secured a job at the John Deere tractor plant in Waterloo, just outside Cedar Falls, and Vicki got a job as a secretary at a Sears department store. They were both earning modest paychecks and eventually purchased a ranch-style home for $26,000 in a well-kept Cedar Falls neighborhood. They were seemingly quite happy — they had plenty of money and Randy was always buying boats, motorcycles and sports cars.
Doc Safari
08-27-13, 13:33
Likely right, but I'm increasingly more-inclined to reframe these issues in terms of culture, rather than race. By and large, I'd like to think that We The People are over the pigmentation issues that haunted our grandparents, but nobody -- of any shade -- wants to live among certain subcultures, ridden by crime, violence and poverty. It can be a subtle distinction to make, but perhaps that is why it is also an important one to make.
AC
I agree. I was just trying to explain Mr. Weaver's motivation, not express an opinion one way or another.
Likely right, but I'm increasingly more-inclined to reframe these issues in terms of culture, rather than race. By and large, I'd like to think that We The People are over the pigmentation issues that haunted our grandparents, but nobody -- of any shade -- wants to live among certain subcultures, ridden by crime, violence and poverty. It can be a subtle distinction to make, but perhaps that is why it is also an important one to make.
AC
Welcome to my thinking. Scary place isn't it?
:D
sinlessorrow
08-27-13, 13:37
The micro managing of posts here is ridiculous. You is the 18th most common word in the English language.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_common_words_in_English
I have to agree with this. I say you to almost everyone when I refference them.
Most people don't date or marry outside of what they perceive as their ethnic group. That's definitely a "preference" for one "race" over another. At this point in American history trying to say that one more or less functional job-holding person is much more racist than any other is like a guy who owns one slave in the antebellum south saying that the guy who owns 5 slaves is really racist and it's a completely way different moral situation than just having one. Our racists of all ethnic stripes barely rank compared to painfully abundant racists in other English speaking countries who will literally spew the most racist crap to someones face, then ask you what it's like living in such a racist country? I mean we're apparently thought of as so racist overseas that we can elect minorities, something nobody else seems to do, and we're still racist, it's frigging amazing how racist we are.
The only time Randy ever attended an Aryan Nations shindig was when the informant (big shocker there) dragged him to one, their big annual get together. Knowing fascists, that almost always = BBQ. I'm also reminded of another group of individuals that held an annual BBQ, which had about the same attendance, or better in the 80's and 90's. Those of you who are older will remember who I'm talking about and what team they were batting for.
So, that was their A-Team potential-informant, one time BBQ attendee. Vicki was by all accounts, much more into that whole christian identity thing and a bit of a loon, well... probably more than a bit of a loon, but it's not like Randy dumped her to go chase tatted up tail down at the watering hole. Apparently he achieved that rare work/life balance that allows one to allegedly rig ones driveway with explosives, allegedly go around the neighborhood telling people this, and the family is supposedly like "way cool dad, can we help set charges next time?"
The mainstay of his "arsenal" were two ruger mini-14 rifles. That tells you as much about the hardcoreness of Randy Weaver as you need to know. You will never read a story on badassoftheweek that contains the phrase "I reached for my mini-14".
thopkins22
08-27-13, 13:45
Gentlemen, the moderation is not really micromanaging you. A couple of years ago, this thread would have been dead pages ago with people banned as a result and all sides feeling perturbed.
Attempting to foster language that's conducive to debate while remaining respectful isn't easy, nor(as AC demonstrated) does it wind up censoring your ability to honestly participate.
People were counseled to avoid the type of language and attacks that ends the thread for everyone...I'm not seeing the problem and indeed think it's a reasonable way to expect people to act.
Most people don't date or marry outside of what they perceive as their ethnic group. That's definitely a "preference" for one "race" over another. At this point in American history trying to say that one more or less functional job-holding person is much more racist than any other is like a guy who owns one slave in the antebellum south saying that the guy who owns 5 slaves is really racist and it's a completely way different moral situation than just having one. Our racists of all ethnic stripes barely rank compared to painfully abundant racists in other English speaking countries who will literally spew the most racist crap to someones face, then ask you what it's like living in such a racist country? I mean we're apparently thought of as so racist overseas that we can elect minorities, something nobody else seems to do, and we're still racist, it's frigging amazing how racist we are.
The only time Randy ever attended an Aryan Nations shindig was when the informant (big shocker there) dragged him to one, their big annual get together. Knowing fascists, that almost always = BBQ. I'm also reminded of another group of individuals that held an annual BBQ, which had about the same attendance, or better in the 80's and 90's. Those of you who are older will remember who I'm talking about and what team they were batting for.
So, that was their A-Team potential-informant, one time BBQ attendee. Vicki was by all accounts, much more into that whole christian identity thing and a bit of a loon, well... probably more than a bit of a loon, but it's not like Randy dumped her to go chase tatted up tail down at the watering hole. Apparently he achieved that rare work/life balance that allows one to allegedly rig ones driveway with explosives, allegedly go around the neighborhood telling people this, and the family is supposedly like "way cool dad, can we help set charges next time?"
The mainstay of his "arsenal" were two ruger mini-14 rifles. That tells you as much about the hardcoreness of Randy Weaver as you need to know. You will never read a story on badassoftheweek that contains the phrase "I reached for my mini-14".
Yeah that.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 14:01
I have to agree with this. I say you to almost everyone when I refference them.
Missing the point, gents. Really, really missing the point.
I am not suggesting that we are to strike the word from our vocabularies by any stretch of the imagination. I'm suggesting that, if you happen to be one of our members who is regularly being infracted for baiting or instigating, or who is regularly-generating reported posts for your harsh manner of speech, and you presumably cannot figure out why, then watching for this (how you use the word "you" when you're building a full-head of steam and getting ready to set someone straight) can help you avoid a lot of senseless grief. The problem is not the word itself. It is how some choose to employ it.
No one inferring that our regular Joes who have no such baggage should be in any way concerned about where and how they choose to use the word. Not in the slightest. This was offered as a tip for those who have been ruffling feathers lately on one possible way to avoid doing it in the future.
Honestly guys, we've been doing this here together for what, seven years now? I should hope that folks know me a bit better than this. No one is censoring anything here at all. All we're asking is that we find better ways of discussing hot button topics so that people don't get all pissed-off and this place doesn't descend into chaos. It is more than a little frustrating to see these kinds of reactions (especially from guys like Belmont, with whom I've always enjoyed a good rapport) because this kind of knee-jerk stuff is the whole reason we end up with problems to begin with.
If you ever have a question about these kinds of calls, I am totally-approachable. Hit me with a PM and ask what in the world I was thinking. Either you're out in left field, and I can explain it in more detail, or I'm out in left field, and I will appreciate the correction. But let's stop the open-air bitching on the boards, please. I get more than a little knotted-up when folks implicate that I (or another staffer) might be applying a heavy hand. We've had that here in years past, and are working hard to avoid that kind of adversarial crap.
One team, one fight. Got it?
AC
TurretGunner
08-27-13, 14:13
^
Synopsis - Turretgunner's use of the Y word has been revoked !
I Love *ou guys.
:D
I am not suggesting that we are to strike the word from our vocabularies by any stretch of the imagination. I'm suggesting that, if you happen to be one of our members who is regularly being infracted for baiting or instigating, or who is regularly-generating reported posts for your harsh manner of speech, and you presumably cannot figure out why, then watching for this (how you use the word "you" when you're building a full-head of steam and getting ready to set someone straight) can help you avoid a lot of senseless grief. The problem is not the word itself. It is how some choose to employ it.
AC
Just to back you up a bit, I used to do this regularly secure in the fact that I believed my use of the word "you" was not specifically directed towards the individual I was speaking to but a generic "you" as if I was addressing a large crowd. We sometimes fall into that "large crowd" mindset on internet forums.
When I started following the word "you" with the qualifier "and I don't mean YOU specifically" I started having fewer problems. I then began to try and use alternate words such as "people" when speaking in generalities.
This is especially important if you have quoted an individual, that individual will likely believe ever single "you" statement is directed to them specifically. I've been on both sides of it and it's easy to get it wrong on either side of it's use.
A lot of my problems on TOS came from careless wording on my part.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 14:21
^
Synopsis - Turretgunner's use of the Y word has been revoked !
I Love *ou guys.
:D
I'm calling up the Cliff's Notes people to see if I can't get you a job. lol
Wouldn't have opted for a publicly-viewable kick in the junk if you were the only one, brother ... we've had plenty of this to go around lately, and there doesn't seem to be any one way to really address it with any finality. What we don't want to do is just start smacking the stupid ban button when it really isn't warranted. That is the lazy way out, and it only makes things worse.
We have a few potential hotheads around here, true, but few actual douchebags. Just trying to keep it that way. ;)
AC
We have a few potential hotheads around here, true, but few actual douchebags. Just trying to keep it that way. ;)
AC
Kind of sums up the gun culture in general. We are hotheads but tend to end it there.
Missing the point, gents. Really, really missing the point.
I am not suggesting that we are to strike the word from our vocabularies...
Chuck I was just kidding you earlier and know exactly what you mean, in fact I'm sure most knew you were referring to using the word in a negative context. No need to explain further I assure you.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 15:07
Chuck I was just kidding you earlier and know exactly what you mean, in fact I'm sure most knew you were referring to using the word in a negative context. No need to explain further I assure you.
Just following the Troy Industries damage control model. Expect several more pitiable statements of "clarification" on this from me over the next few days. lol
AC
montanadave
08-27-13, 15:28
So I think I got a handle on the proper use and deployment of the objective pronoun you.
Where do the mods stand vis-a-vis the utilization of the majestic plural we, as in the royal we?
Cuz we gots to know.
Army Chief
08-27-13, 15:53
So I think I got a handle on the proper use and deployment of the objective pronoun you.
Where do the mods stand vis-a-vis the utilization of the majestic plural we, as in the royal we?
Cuz we gots to know.
We, and by we, I mean you and I, probably need to go around the woodshed and discuss this for a few minutes, prior to settling-in for a delightful evening of grilled ribeyes and frosty beverages.
Jackwagon. ;)
AC
Five_Point_Five_Six
08-27-13, 20:06
Most people don't date or marry outside of what they perceive as their ethnic group. That's definitely a "preference" for one "race" over another. At this point in American history trying to say that one more or less functional job-holding person is much more racist than any other is like a guy who owns one slave in the antebellum south saying that the guy who owns 5 slaves is really racist and it's a completely way different moral situation than just having one. Our racists of all ethnic stripes barely rank compared to painfully abundant racists in other English speaking countries who will literally spew the most racist crap to someones face, then ask you what it's like living in such a racist country? I mean we're apparently thought of as so racist overseas that we can elect minorities, something nobody else seems to do, and we're still racist, it's frigging amazing how racist we are.
The only time Randy ever attended an Aryan Nations shindig was when the informant (big shocker there) dragged him to one, their big annual get together. Knowing fascists, that almost always = BBQ. I'm also reminded of another group of individuals that held an annual BBQ, which had about the same attendance, or better in the 80's and 90's. Those of you who are older will remember who I'm talking about and what team they were batting for.
So, that was their A-Team potential-informant, one time BBQ attendee. Vicki was by all accounts, much more into that whole christian identity thing and a bit of a loon, well... probably more than a bit of a loon, but it's not like Randy dumped her to go chase tatted up tail down at the watering hole. Apparently he achieved that rare work/life balance that allows one to allegedly rig ones driveway with explosives, allegedly go around the neighborhood telling people this, and the family is supposedly like "way cool dad, can we help set charges next time?"
The mainstay of his "arsenal" were two ruger mini-14 rifles. That tells you as much about the hardcoreness of Randy Weaver as you need to know. You will never read a story on badassoftheweek that contains the phrase "I reached for my mini-14".
Spot on, once again.
I was but a wee lad when Ruby Ridge went down, and I didn't understand or know all of the details surrounding it, but I knew at the time that it was wrong. I remember seeing my Dad, standing between the coffee table and the tv watching the news coverage and he had a look of anger and disgust that I'd never seen before. I saw that look again right after the Oklahoma City bombing, Waco, and 9/11.
I could not in clear conscience give any of my financial support to a company who would hire people like Troy has.
Spot on, once again.
I was but a wee lad when Ruby Ridge went down, and I didn't understand or know all of the details surrounding it, but I knew at the time that it was wrong. I remember seeing my Dad, standing between the coffee table and the tv watching the news coverage and he had a look of anger and disgust that I'd never seen before. I saw that look again right after the Oklahoma City bombing, Waco, and 9/11.
I could not in clear conscience give any of my financial support to a company who would hire people like Troy has.
I met Randy Weaver at a gun show in my area. I purchased his book and struck up a conversation with him. We had a very long conversation about the incident. He told me that mistakes were made on both sides.
That being said, Troy will not see any of my money, ever. No one should profit from a very bad incident.
After 11 pages, contributors have clearly established their opinions and the basis for them. Troy has issued their statement, staking out their position. I don't believe much more will come from this thread. If further information of note develops on this topic, we can reopen it.
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