View Full Version : Current calibers being issued to PDs.
Well, as a cop for seven years I've carried .40 S&W for the majority of my career except for a small period when I carried a .45 GAP. Well, soon enough that will come to an end as my agency will be issuing us GLOCK 17 Gen4s. Alas, as a .40 S&W fan this is a heartbreaker for me. I will be stepping down in caliber. (I own 9mm pistols so its all good actually.)
I have been noticing on numerous industry reports that a number of agencies are dropping the .40 S&W and going back to 9mm or .45 ACP. Anyone here going through the same transition? Any agency you folks work for dropping one caliber and adopting another?
I feel confident with a 9mm just as I do with any other service cartridge for general self defense but the .40 S&W serve me well due to its ability to penetrate a barrier like auto glass which in my line of work is a very good thing. I just feel that my agency is doing this for two reasons. It's cheaper and the non gun folks complain about the recoil. Alas.... most agencies don't listen to gun folks or follow real information in regards to self defense and ballistics.
John Hearne
08-23-13, 19:41
There is an increasingly common view that there is no or little difference between the common service calibers. This allows folks to think that a premium 9mm is the same thing as a premium 40 or 45. Given that performance is the same, then other factors inform the decision.
My personal view is that departments are dropping back to 9mm to save money. 9mm ammo is cheaper so you can buy more in a world of shrinking budgets. Since 9mm is easier to shoot, agencies can spend less money on initial and un-service training.
I would agree with that except barrier penetration performance is an important factor in my caliber selection. I constantly see training and equipment pushed back due to budget constraints and yet stupid stuff is done all the time. We just purchased a 2012 Dodge Dodger Pursuit Package and yet not a single patrol officer can't use it. It's use is restricted to command staff. Why the hell did they get a new tricked out patrol vehicle when they never patrol? They can find funds for that yet they can't fund us for proper training or equipment.
Our Agency just posted test results for our duty ammo.
.40 Federal XM40HC 180 grn JHP
9mm +P Speer 53927 124 grn JHP
After firing 20 rounds per caliber into each of the following: Bare gelatin, heavy clothing on gelatin, Steel (car door) over bare gelatin, laminated glass (windshield) to bare gelatin.
.40 - penetration average 13.3", Expanded average .652"
9mm- penetration average 13.5", Expanded average .582"
Muzzle Energy
.40 419 ft-lb
9mm 392 ft-lb
Overall, a very slight advantage to .40. But worth the extra recoil, expense, and reduced capacity? Not to me. I choose to carry the Glock 17 over the Sig 229...
You can draw your own conclusions. Just thought I would share our test data.
Dos Cylindros
08-23-13, 22:18
At my first agency (I was a reserve) we carried 9mm. The remaining 15 years I have been on this job it has been the .40 S&W. I will agree that 9mm is cheaper and easier to shoot, but I'm fine with .40 and don't see an overwhelming need for departments to jump back to the 9mm just because.
The last few OIS incidents at my department have all involved shots through vehicle glass or sheet metal and our 180 grain Ranger-T rounds have performed very well. I don't know how 9mm would have performed (probably just fine), but I don't see a need for us to switch right now.
We carried 9mm +P+ the first 14 years of my career, which sucked bilge water. In 1999, we transitioned to .40 S&W 180g HP, which has a good performance record with my agency.
The current trend is to go back to 9mm. With cartridge development over the past 10 years, I believe that 9mm is the way to go.
My employer uses 9mm as a standard. My unit is transitioning from .40S&W to .45ACP. Couldn't be happier to get away from the .40S&W. I would have felt confident with 9mm. Our own lengthy ballistic testing showed very little differences in barrier performance, so many start weighing other aspects of the equation, which IMO is valid.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-23-13, 23:42
I think it is about money. Hell, just about every decision these days is about money. The way things are going departments will be carrying ball before long citing increased penetration.
operator81
08-23-13, 23:57
I'm issued a P229R in .357 Sig. I'd much prefer it chambered in 9mm. I ended up buying a .40 barrel just to make it more cost effective to practice with. I don't think the .357 Sig offers anything over a 124 grain +p except for recoil and muzzle flash.
Alaskapopo
08-24-13, 00:04
Our chief wanted us to move to standard issue sidearms about 4 year back. Older guys would be grandfathered and new hires would get the standard issue. I picked the Glock 17. I prefer the 9mm to the 40 for reasons gone over in this thread. Plus it is cheaper and at that time the 9mm's were more reliable than the 40's. We have had good service from them. I carried my Wilson 1911 for a while and then traded to a Glock 17 as well. For starters I wanted to show I had faith in the gun I picked for everyone and secondly I no longer wanted to carry a low cap high maintenance gun on patrol. I have carried a lot of guns in 14 years on the job. But the 17 is my favorite.
Pat
Allowing officers more caliber selection to fit there needs can be a good thing, allowing the shooter to choose the best fit for them. Unfortunately I perceive this push is being driven by cost and as a quick fix to get people to qualify due to lack of training Many departments are taking a machete to training now as is mine. I see this as a band aid, those who don't train will suck with a 40 and 45, and odds are they will still suck, though a little less with 9mm. On the flip side good shooters who choose to convert can be even better and have more bullets in the gun.
Alaskapopo
08-24-13, 05:17
Allowing officers more caliber selection to fit there needs can be a good thing, allowing the shooter to choose the best fit for them. Unfortunately I perceive this push is being driven by cost and as a quick fix to get people to qualify due to lack of training Many departments are taking a machete to training now as is mine. I see this as a band aid, those who don't train will suck with a 40 and 45, and odds are they will still suck, though a little less with 9mm. On the flip side good shooters who choose to convert can be even better and have more bullets in the gun.
Generally I see students sucking a lot less with the 9mm vs the .40 or .45. While I would like to see more training I think the 9mm is the best choice in my opinion.
Pat
Austin Millbarge
08-24-13, 06:49
We (CT State Police) just swapped our Sig P229's in .40 for a P220
.45. I am not sure why. I have an idea, but it is not politically correct.
...I wanted to show I had faith in the gun I picked for everyone...
you are probably literally one in a million. much respect.
As I said earlier it is easily a money issue. With a lessening budget they always cut training yet still manage to blow funds on stupid projects l like command staff getting new vehicles while patrol gets stuck with ten year old clunkers. I don't feel underarmed with 9mm; I just hate the reasoning for the switch to it. Slashing the budget but still need to get folks to qual, issue them a 9mm and get it done. Forget actually training them or teaching then proper fundamentals jut give them a firearn that recoils less and pass 'em through the qual range as quick as you can.
I think it is about money. Hell, just about every decision these days is about money. The way things are going departments will be carrying ball before long citing increased penetration.
The way things are going you all might be carrying these soon (Atlatl). :angry:
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Spear-thrower?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com
The way things are going you all might be carrying these soon (Atlatl). :angry:
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Spear-thrower?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com
Just wait until the non atlatl folks claim that its too heavy amd start carrying toothpicks instead.
gtmtnbiker98
08-24-13, 13:06
My department is in the middle of transitioning from the SIG P229 .40 to the HK P30 V1 9mm.
As I said earlier it is easily a money issue. With a lessening budget they always cut training yet still manage to blow funds on stupid projects l like command staff getting new vehicles while patrol gets stuck with ten year old clunkers. I don't feel underarmed with 9mm; I just hate the reasoning for the switch to it. Slashing the budget but still need to get folks to qual, issue them a 9mm and get it done. Forget actually training them or teaching then proper fundamentals jut give them a firearn that recoils less and pass 'em through the qual range as quick as you can.Now I am not in favor of frivolous spending by upper command staff at the sacrifice of the guys and gals on the street but budget crunches are the reality that LE in general is facing.
I also agree that nothing replaces quality training and the ability to practice and that is the optimal in an ideal world. We are far from living in the ideal situation in LE. Never has been that "ideal" world in the nearly 24 years that I have been doing it. So if we look at a pure performance increase and knowing that being able to hit what your aiming at and shot placement being king, it does make sense to provide officers with a pistol that instills confidence and is a better performing pistol for many shooters. Even if you have tons of money and endless hours of training, there will be certain individuals that would be better suited with a 9mm no matter what. Heck I can perform extremely well with a .40, probably better than the greater majority of those in LE, but I would still opt for a 9mm to eek out that extra bit of performance. Either 9mm or .45acp are my choices. But budget aside, you, me or anyone else has personal preferences. Take away our caliber of choice and anyone would be upset and looking to blame something / someone. Just something to consider.
We currently carry Glock 22 gen 3's pushing HyraShok's in 165gr. We are switching to Glock 21 gen4's loaded with 230gr HST's. We are also being issued Streamlight TLR-1 HL's. We are just waiting for the guns, lights, and holster/mag pouches to come in.
Psalms144.1
08-24-13, 14:18
My agency went the other way - 9mm to .40, back in 2008. We have a VERY liberal personal weapons policy, however, though most "hobby" shooters (e.g. almost every agent I work with, who carry guns when they're not inconvenient) either carry the issued gun, or bought the smallest possible option in .40, since ".40 must be better"
We now have tons of agents walking around with Kahr PM40s, G27s, and other small .40s, and, I've never seen a group of shooters with worse habits in my life. If I had a dime for every lost shot through massive flinch based on the recoil characteristics of this round in these pistols, I could retire.
Nothing wrong with .40 - I can run an equivalent .40 just as fast and accurately as most 9mms - AS LONG AS I STAY IN DUTY SIZED PISTOLS. Drop to a compact or subcompact, and my performance really drops off in .40... YMMV, of course, but I have made the decision to stick with 9mm for all my personal weapons - and don't feel at all underequipped.
Regards,
Kevin
Alaskapopo
08-24-13, 14:28
My agency went the other way - 9mm to .40, back in 2008. We have a VERY liberal personal weapons policy, however, though most "hobby" shooters (e.g. almost every agent I work with, who carry guns when they're not inconvenient) either carry the issued gun, or bought the smallest possible option in .40, since ".40 must be better"
We now have tons of agents walking around with Kahr PM40s, G27s, and other small .40s, and, I've never seen a group of shooters with worse habits in my life. If I had a dime for every lost shot through massive flinch based on the recoil characteristics of this round in these pistols, I could retire.
Nothing wrong with .40 - I can run an equivalent .40 just as fast and accurately as most 9mms - AS LONG AS I STAY IN DUTY SIZED PISTOLS. Drop to a compact or subcompact, and my performance really drops off in .40... YMMV, of course, but I have made the decision to stick with 9mm for all my personal weapons - and don't feel at all underequipped.
Regards,
Kevin
Try that on a timer especially at distance. Not being rude but you can't argue with physics. With more recoil you will not be able to shoot as fast. The difference is less noticeable as gun size goes up but its still there. It is more noticeable at longer ranges where muzzle flip keeps your sights off target longer due to the smaller size of the target in relation to your sights.
Pat
My agency went the other way - 9mm to .40, back in 2008. We have a VERY liberal personal weapons policy, however, though most "hobby" shooters (e.g. almost every agent I work with, who carry guns when they're not inconvenient) either carry the issued gun, or bought the smallest possible option in .40, since ".40 must be better"
We now have tons of agents walking around with Kahr PM40s, G27s, and other small .40s, and, I've never seen a group of shooters with worse habits in my life. If I had a dime for every lost shot through massive flinch based on the recoil characteristics of this round in these pistols, I could retire.
Nothing wrong with .40 - I can run an equivalent .40 just as fast and accurately as most 9mms - AS LONG AS I STAY IN DUTY SIZED PISTOLS. Drop to a compact or subcompact, and my performance really drops off in .40... YMMV, of course, but I have made the decision to stick with 9mm for all my personal weapons - and don't feel at all underequipped.
Regards,
Kevin
I carry a G27 as a BUG and off duty. Nine out of ten times I shoot better with that then I do my S&W 642 with Federal Nyclad +P loads. Hell, at my old agency I was the only guy rocking a J-Frame. At my current one we are issued a Fullsize and a BUG; G22 and a G27.
At no pint do I feel underarmed with a 9mm, hell I own a ton of 'em along with .45s but the .40 to me meets all the right criteria for what I want. Good on capacity, performance, barrier penetration, and I don't find it snappy at all and I'm 5'4 and 155lbs guy.
Psalms144.1
08-24-13, 17:21
Try that on a timer especially at distance. Not being rude but you can't argue with physics. With more recoil you will not be able to shoot as fast. The difference is less noticeable as gun size goes up but its still there. It is more noticeable at longer ranges where muzzle flip keeps your sights off target longer due to the smaller size of the target in relation to your sights.
PatPat - Yes, I've "done that" on a timer, at a variety of distances out to 25 yards. With the G22 and P226, my times and accuracy are just as good as with a G17 or P226 9mm. At close range, my times are indistinguishable with no reduction in accuracy. Especially at longer ranges, the slower recovery shot-to-shot times are buried in the need to aim - as opposed to standing up close and making the banging noise as fast as possible...
BUT, and this is the salient point that I guess you missed, I recognize that I have to work harder to achieve these goals with anything in .40 S&W - especially when I drop down a notch into the G23/P229 size pistols. So much so, that with my preferred "compact" platforms (specifically the G19 and P2000), it's simply "not worth the squeeze" for me - hence the reason I carry 9mm personal weapons.
Regards,
Kevin
Alaskapopo
08-24-13, 17:33
Pat - Yes, I've "done that" on a timer, at a variety of distances out to 25 yards. With the G22 and P226, my times and accuracy are just as good as with a G17 or P226 9mm. At close range, my times are indistinguishable with no reduction in accuracy. Especially at longer ranges, the slower recovery shot-to-shot times are buried in the need to aim - as opposed to standing up close and making the banging noise as fast as possible...
BUT, and this is the salient point that I guess you missed, I recognize that I have to work harder to achieve these goals with anything in .40 S&W - especially when I drop down a notch into the G23/P229 size pistols. So much so, that with my preferred "compact" platforms (specifically the G19 and P2000), it's simply "not worth the squeeze" for me - hence the reason I carry 9mm personal weapons.
Regards,
Kevin
A few summers back I was shooting my Wilson CQB in 45 ACP and my Trojan 9mm 1911 on the IDPA classifer course a lot. I found that the 9mm times up close were not much faster but at the 20 yard line it was significantly faster. My times on the classifer with the 9mm were about 10 seconds faster overall. The Wilson was actually the far better gun with the trigger and sights but the 9mm was still easier to shoot. The 40 Glocks are even snappier of a comparison to the 9mm Glocks. Also to get truly fast i try not to have to take any extra time to aim at 20 yards. Just pull the trigger as soon as the sights come back down and leave the rest to muscle memory.The point I was trying to make is no matter how skilled you are you can't defy physics and a harder recoiling gun will take longer to get back on target and hence slower shooting. Now granted the more skill you have the less of a difference you will notice but there will still be a difference.
Pat
I preach the right tool for the right job; hence my owning of different calibers and platforms. But I hate it that I am handicapped because of someone else's lack of skill or want to improve through training. Yes, as an organization we are as strong as our weakest link and I also understand logistics but still.
Don't restrict me due to someone else's lack of skill and dedication to wanting not to improve. Sadly the majority of law enforcement are not "gun people" and having them qual let alone practice is like taking a child to the dentist. They will kick, scream, cry, and make up every excuse that they can come up with to get out of training and qualifications.
Ahhhh... I wish I could carry what I want. But that's not going to happen anytime soon at work.
Alaskapopo
08-25-13, 05:39
I preach the right tool for the right job; hence my owning of different calibers and platforms. But I hate it that I am handicapped because of someone else's lack of skill or want to improve through training. Yes, as an organization we are as strong as our weakest link and I also understand logistics but still.
Don't restrict me due to someone else's lack of skill and dedication to wanting not to improve. Sadly the majority of law enforcement are not "gun people" and having them qual let alone practice is like taking a child to the dentist. They will kick, scream, cry, and make up every excuse that they can come up with to get out of training and qualifications.
Ahhhh... I wish I could carry what I want. But that's not going to happen anytime soon at work.
Right tool for the right job but you don't need a different gun for every outfit you where. A good 9mm service pistol fits law enforcements needs.
Pat
In the county where I work we are seeing a transition to .45 ACP from .40 S&W. Two agencies have already switched. One went with the G21SF and the other to the M&P. Two more are most likely going to the Gen4 G21. All but one previously carried the G22 Gen3.
Other than one, their testing was not that rigorous beyond testing T&E guns. Also three of them allowed the officers to vote. I think ego and misinformed assumptions ended up influencing a lot of the decisions.
When talking with officers who made the switch to .45, they cited things like "stopping power" and that the .45 is powerful enough so the decrease in capacity is not a big deal.
Educated evaluations of duty ammo and changes to what agencies carry can be few and far between in my neck of the woods.
It's kind of ironic that my corrections agency (Arkansas) went to .40 Glocks two years ago after hanging on to .38 Special Smith and Wessons for many years beyond when most agencies got rid of the revolvers. .40 is now becoming less fashionable and we are behind the times again!
It's kind of ironic that my corrections agency (Arkansas) went to .40 Glocks two years ago after hanging on to .38 Special Smith and Wessons for many years beyond when most agencies got rid of the revolvers. .40 is now becoming less fashionable and we are behind the times again!
Arkansas had wheel guns up to two years ago? Damn, that is old school but then again Miami-Dade County Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation along with Florida Department of Corrections still issue S&W Model 64s so don't feel behind the times.
Right tool for the right job but you don't need a different gun for every outfit you where. A good 9mm service pistol fits law enforcements needs.
Pat
A good 9mm ROUND fits law enforcement needs.
StrikerFired
08-25-13, 15:48
I preach the right tool for the right job; hence my owning of different calibers and platforms. But I hate it that I am handicapped because of someone else's lack of skill or want to improve through training. Yes, as an organization we are as strong as our weakest link and I also understand logistics but still.
Don't restrict me due to someone else's lack of skill and dedication to wanting not to improve. Sadly the majority of law enforcement are not "gun people" and having them qual let alone practice is like taking a child to the dentist. They will kick, scream, cry, and make up every excuse that they can come up with to get out of training and qualifications.
Ahhhh... I wish I could carry what I want. But that's not going to happen anytime soon at work.
Exactly...
Alaskapopo
08-25-13, 16:37
A good 9mm ROUND fits law enforcement needs.
That goes without saying and it applies to any caliber.
pat
A good friend of mine who was also previous roomate is issued a Glock21 in the Sheriffs dept. He lived with me during police academy training and told me his fellow officers were given the choice between 9mm, 40, and 45.
I knew some of his fellow officers, and most of the women chose the 9mm if they were recoil-sensitve, while the male cops were split between 40 and 45.
My agency issues G-21C's as primary. Officers who can't qualify with it can opt for a G-22. I carry my own G-21SF with an Accurate Iron grip reduction. I don't care for ported duty guns and the overall grip circumference on mine is equal to a G-17. I shoot 96-100% on EVERY qual round, but the targets I see on the line show many with a skill level barely hovering above abysmal. I do think the scores would improve greatly if the G-17 was standard issue. They could nearly double the ammunition allotment per deputy and the recoil reduction wouldn't hurt.
A solid hit with a 9mm will beat a .40 or .45 miss or marginal hit all day long.
My dept (small town dept in NW Indiana) just transitioned to 9mm from .40. Those of us who are gun-savvy are pleased with the change.
After our transition day, everyone is pleased, as scores and confidence have both gone up.
jvg
We have a few 9mm vs 40SW threads already, and at least one gets down into the weeds.
For years I've said that if I ever get the chance to transition or standardize another user group, it would be to 9mm and a Glock 19 (alternately, a G17). I got my wish and am helping others do the same. As folks T&E the variables, which admittedly include budgetary concerns, 40 users are dropping like flies. With solid justification.
MountainRaven
08-26-13, 11:03
I preach the right tool for the right job; hence my owning of different calibers and platforms. But I hate it that I am handicapped because of someone else's lack of skill or want to improve through training. Yes, as an organization we are as strong as our weakest link and I also understand logistics but still.
Don't restrict me due to someone else's lack of skill and dedication to wanting not to improve. Sadly the majority of law enforcement are not "gun people" and having them qual let alone practice is like taking a child to the dentist. They will kick, scream, cry, and make up every excuse that they can come up with to get out of training and qualifications.
Ahhhh... I wish I could carry what I want. But that's not going to happen anytime soon at work.
How does it handicap you?
9mm and 45 folks can make the same argument if you "force" them into a 40. They'll wish that they could carry the guns that they want, too (and there are almost certainly departments out there that allow it within reason, you simply have to find them).
LEOs, what do you carry on duty?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44005
"Stopping power" and unrealistic expectations....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=129642
.40SW or 9MM? What say you?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=132294
FBI looking at changing pistol calibers!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=129771
9x19 and 40 S&W shooting characteristics
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116014
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