Transitioning to support/weak shoulder

[Arctic1]

Ok guys, this has probably been discussed before at one point or another, but what are your thoughts on transitioning from strong side to weak/support side when shooting your long gun?

I have mixed feelings on the issue. I see an application for it when you are going to shoot from a barricade or support, but I don't like it for entering and clearing rooms or movement. I feel I give up too much in accuracy compared to what supposed benefit it provides in regards to utilizing cover/concealment.

I am not saying that you should not practice shooting from your support side, but I am talking real world application.

Would appreciate some thoughts and different perspectives on this subject.

Thanks

[Moltke]

Real world application?

You should take every advantage with guns, gear, and especially technique. Be proficient at shooting weak side so when you need to do it, you can. There may be times when it is the right thing to do. Otherwise, play to your strengths and shoot strong side.

[Failure2Stop]

While I prefer to primarily have the long-gun on my right side, I train to be able to effectively employ the rifle/carbine from the support side for those times that the situation favors it. Better to have the gun in position to gain the advantage than to have to find it from a position of disadvantage. One of those aspects is clearing tight cover/obstacles.

However; if you cannot out-perform the task from the dominant side by switching to the support side, it is better to stay on the preferred side.

While I believe that one should be comfortable and proficient from either shoulder, either hand, and either eye, does not mean anyone else's training priorities match mine. Saying that, my operative word is "comfort", not "equal proficiency"; it is time and resource intensive to get the support side to the same level of proficiency as the dominant side. It takes far less to gain an acceptable level of proficiency/comfort. My priority goes to the most likely need; focused on dominant side overall proficiency, as equal as possible proficiency at 50 meters and under, high proficiency at long range from the dominant side, and ability to be effective from cover/support from either side inside 200 meters.

[SpeedRacer]

You can train away your perceived issues with transitioning to the support side. It's not a matter of is one technique better than the other, there's NEVER a good reason not to maximize cover. It's simply a choice to not put in the effort.

[Arctic1]

While I prefer to primarily have the long-gun on my right side, I train to be able to effectively employ the rifle/carbine from the support side for those times that the situation favors it. Better to have the gun in position to gain the advantage than to have to find it from a position of disadvantage. One of those aspects is clearing tight cover/obstacles.

However; if you cannot out-perform the task from the dominant side by switching to the support side, it is better to stay on the preferred side.

While I believe that one should be comfortable and proficient from either shoulder, either hand, and either eye, does not mean anyone else's training priorities match mine. Saying that, my operative word is "comfort", not "equal proficiency"; it is time and resource intensive to get the support side to the same level of proficiency as the dominant side. It takes far less to gain an acceptable level of proficiency/comfort. My priority goes to the most likely need; focused on dominant side overall proficiency, as equal as possible proficiency at 50 meters and under, high proficiency at long range from the dominant side, and ability to be effective from cover/support from either side inside 200 meters.

I don't disagree with what you put forth here.

Just a quick question regarding what I highlighted in bold; are you focusing solely on high probability shots here, or low probability as well?

[Arctic1]

Real world application?

You should take every advantage with guns, gear, and especially technique. Be proficient at shooting weak side so when you need to do it, you can. There may be times when it is the right thing to do. Otherwise, play to your strengths and shoot strong side.

Yes, real world application; would you actually switch shoulders prior to entering a room?

As I stated, I do not imply that being able to shoot from the, for me as a righty, left shoulder is a bad skill to have or that you should not practice it.

That said, when stacking on a room (for example), does it really provide a benefit to switch shoulders? I have never had to enter a room with a real bad guy in it, but I have tried entering from the right side of a doorway with the weapon mounted in either shoulder when doing MOUT training. I cannot really discern what I "lose" by having the gun mounted in my strong shoulder, even though TTP's state to switch.

[Arctic1]

You can train away your perceived issues with transitioning to the support side. It's not a matter of is one technique better than the other, there's NEVER a good reason not to maximize cover. It's simply a choice to not put in the effort.

What constitutes cover though? Most of the time what you are behind is mere concealment. Is it more important to hide a small part of your body, and possibly miss, or accept a bit more exposure for a higher percentage to actually hit and neutralize the threat?

Regarding training away perceived issues with weak side shooting, and that it's not an option to not put in the effort. That is a feasable approach if most of what you do relates to shooting. With MIL, there are so many other areas that you would need to train on and be proficient in. There are only so many hours a day, and days in the week.

Granted, you can dry fire some of the aspects of transitioning and weak side shooting, but with a busy schedule, what do you prioritize when doing live fire training?

[Arctic1]

A bit more from me, for context.

I have been debating this issue over the years, and tried using both shoulders when entering rooms during MOUT training; as I said previously, never had to enter a room with an armed bad guy in it. I cannot discern any notable benefit when passing through the door from shouldering the rifle on my left side, vs the right, except a crappier accuracy.


Then I read this article the other day, and the comment by Tom Spooner prompted me to start a thread on this:


http://www.guns.com/2013/04/16/defense-tactics-room-clearing/

"Some people can switch hands and shoot incredibly well, but it takes a lot of practice and, on the professional level, literally hundreds of thousands of rounds. Even then, they might not be able to do it under stress. That’s why when the question was posed to Tom Spooner, a former Delta Force member and co-founder of Invictus Alliance Group, he explained that some people might be able to switch hands or switch sides (bilateral shooting) well, but that he never has done so in any tactical scenario."


I know that many of the well known instructors out there advocate learning how to shoot weak/support side, and as I stated above I think you need to work on it. I am just curious as to how applicable it is outside of working around cover/barricades etc.

[Failure2Stop]

Just a quick question regarding what I highlighted in bold; are you focusing solely on high probability shots here, or low probability as well?

To me, it means every marksmanship task, from high percentage upper torso at 3 meters to precision placement at 100 meters, from standing, kneeling, barricade, and unconventional/awkward positions.

I have drills that I like to run that puts the shooter into support-side shoulder use immediately following dominant side use to help in skill improvement.


ETA: I am not necessarily a proponent of switching shoulders in anticipation of entry in team-based enclosure clearing for one reason: the 1 man is always right. If he happens to hook when I expected to him to cross and I stuck my gun in my left shoulder in anticipation of that, and then wind up going left, I put myself into a position where I am going to be slower into the corner, from my slightly slower side, or try to switch shoulders while clearing the immediate area. I believe this to be more of a TTP issue than a marksmanship issue.

However, if I am getting ready to barricade a right side corner, clear additional furniture/small spaces inside the enclosure, work the left side of a vehicle, or work enclosures/confined spaces solo, there is advantage and opportunity to support side proficiency. Lots of folks get drawn into "CQB", forgetting that it actually only represents like 10% of actual fighting. AGree that it's 10% that gets really f**king nasty if you do it wrong, but it's also 85% TTPs that win or lose the fight.

[Clint]

Ok guys, this has probably been discussed before at one point or another, but what are your thoughts on transitioning from strong side to weak/support side when shooting your long gun?


"Weak side"?

I though it was called "your OTHER strong side"! :)

[T2C]

I don't like to limit myself to training just one way. I train off both side with handguns, rifles and shotguns, because I want to maximize my ability with the firearm. I am not a proponent of switching shoulders for room entry and I can't recall anyone doing it before entering a room. We do teach it to the rank and file though, so they can make maximize use of available cover.

Switching shoulders is part of one of the stages for carbine training and qualifications and we use to hear a lot of complaining about it's application. I was assisting with training a group of roughly 30 people when a veteran asked when the technique would ever be used. My response was that the carbine shoots as well while you are laying on your side or back as it does while you are standing. I asked if a carbine operator was right handed and found themself laying on their left side, what shoulder would they shoot off of when returning fire from underneath a vehicle. The unanimous response was the left side.

I am a firm believer that if you are training outside your comfort zone at least part of the time, you are doing it correctly.

[C4IGrant]

Ok guys, this has probably been discussed before at one point or another, but what are your thoughts on transitioning from strong side to weak/support side when shooting your long gun?

I have mixed feelings on the issue. I see an application for it when you are going to shoot from a barricade or support, but I don't like it for entering and clearing rooms or movement. I feel I give up too much in accuracy compared to what supposed benefit it provides in regards to utilizing cover/concealment.

I am not saying that you should not practice shooting from your support side, but I am talking real world application.

Would appreciate some thoughts and different perspectives on this subject.

Thanks

Good question. I think we have to break the question down into two different groups. They are Single Man Defensive Room Clearing (or barrier utilization) and Team Offensive/Hybrid/Combat Clearing (two men or more).

I have been taught in Single man room clearing to switch shoulders, hands and eyes (as I have all the time in the world and need to utilize what ever form of cover I have available). The exception to this rule would be that I hear a family member screaming at the other end of the house (which is most likely where the threat is). Then every doorway gets a gun pointed in it as I quickly move to that room.

With Team entry (two or more) there is no switching shoulders if we are coming into a room dynamically. The exception to this rule would be that we are doing the more modern "hybrid" room clearing. In this instance (as I have some time available to me), I would consider switching shoulders.

As pointed out by several folks in this thread if you are a crappy shooter with your weak eye or hand, don't do it! There are some people that absolutely cannot use their non-dominant eye.

I do practice weak hand/eye shooting and am fairly good at it mostly because I somewhat ambidextrous (both eyes and hands).

NOTE: I have no operational experience with any of this and am simply pass along what I have been taught by people that do.



C4

[QuietOne]

First a couple of points. Don't limit yourself MENTALLY. You don't know what the fight's going to be. The fight is going to be what it is going to be. This weekend I was at a Larry Vickers class on Home e Defense at King33 in Connecticut. This class was about room clearing as a single person, not team tactics. Larry said if you are going to switch hands the long gun is the way to go. He was less of a fan of doing it with your pistol. The students were discussing it while getting waiting to run the drills. Most people chose to do the last exercise with a pistol only and strong hand. One of the instructors from King33, Henry, showed a group of us techniques for clearing with a long gun and switching hands, also to point shoot with the long gun held under the armpit. I was very skeptical of point shooting in this way. Henry also ran a drill with us that showed the the bad guy TONS of your body doing that strong hand versus weak hand. The difference was really amazing. I chose to do it with a Simunitions M4 I had never held let alone fired. Long story short, no problems switching shoulders or point shooting from the underarm position. Even though this was a Simunitions class,Vickers and the AI's were after us for any accuracy infractions. I do practice shooting a carbine weak hand. But it's not more than 5% of my time or ammunition. It is something I should practice more.

[SpeedRacer]

What constitutes cover though? Most of the time what you are behind is mere concealment. Is it more important to hide a small part of your body, and possibly miss, or accept a bit more exposure for a higher percentage to actually hit and neutralize the threat?

Regarding training away perceived issues with weak side shooting, and that it's not an option to not put in the effort. That is a feasable approach if most of what you do relates to shooting. With MIL, there are so many other areas that you would need to train on and be proficient in. There are only so many hours a day, and days in the week.

Granted, you can dry fire some of the aspects of transitioning and weak side shooting, but with a busy schedule, what do you prioritize when doing live fire training?

I see what you're getting at and better understand the point you're making. Still, I don't view it as a choice, more of an imposed limitation. I agree, if your weak side and transition skills are that poor, then some scenarios you could be better off not attempting it. It's not the correct choice persay, but moreso a compromise based on limitations.

So the more important aspect of the question is how much emphasis should be placed on weak side and transistion training. For me personally, the answer is a lot. I'd rather practice what I'm not good at than reconfirm skills I already have, as gratifying as it may be. When training or practicing, I actually try to do more weak side work than strong side. That is of course assuming someone is at least competent with their strong side. As a civilian, any firefight I find myself in will most certainly be defensive/reactionary...meaning I don't get to choose the playing field or circumstances. I'd rather have all the bases covered.

[Moltke]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

[RogerinTPA]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

Agreed. It's the reason I practice support side shooting, mag changes and manipulations at every range session, sometimes shooting an entire session wrong handed. I also like to stick with instructors that incorporates the use of support side shooting in training scenarios.

[Arctic1]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

That statement is sort of my point though; who decides that it is tactically correct, and then implements it as a TTP?

Take room clearing as part of MOUT (I have never trained for HR or any HSLD QCB type stuff). I know the correct battle drill, and I know how to shoot.

Our TTPs state that when we stack up on the right side of the door, we are supposed to switch shoulders if we are right handed. Same for LH shooters when stacking up on the left side. The argument FOR this TTP is improved cover/concealment vs keeping it strong side.

I have way better results on target or role players when sticking with my strong side. Could training help? Possibly. Is it worth allocating training time to improving a TTP that only provides a marginal benefit at best?

As I said, I see the application wrt barricades/support/cover positions. That is a bit easier though, when compared to shooting off-hand, on the move against possible moving or low percentage targets (behind cover etc).

[Moltke]

That statement is sort of my point though; who decides that it is tactically correct, and then implements it as a TTP?

Take room clearing as part of MOUT (I have never trained for HR or any HSLD QCB type stuff). I know the correct battle drill, and I know how to shoot.

Our TTPs state that when we stack up on the right side of the door, we are supposed to switch shoulders if we are right handed. Same for LH shooters when stacking up on the left side. The argument FOR this TTP is improved cover/concealment vs keeping it strong side.

I have way better results on target or role players when sticking with my strong side. Could training help? Possibly. Is it worth allocating training time to improving a TTP that only provides a marginal benefit at best?

As I said, I see the application wrt barricades/support/cover positions. That is a bit easier though, when compared to shooting off-hand, on the move against possible moving or low percentage targets (behind cover etc).

If you are going to be clearing rooms and buildings, and you're expected to shoot weak side 0-25 yards, then you should train to do that proficiently - or make sure you're the guy in line with your gun facing the "right" direction. Ha!

[Failure2Stop]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

Boom.
Well said.


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[Failure2Stop]

Our TTPs state that when we stack up on the right side of the door, we are supposed to switch shoulders if we are right handed. Same for LH shooters when stacking up on the left side. The argument FOR this TTP is improved cover/concealment vs keeping it strong side.


I can't be absolute in my statement as I am not familiar with the totality of your enclosure TTPs, so take it for what it is worth, but I would disagree with the switching of shoulders based on what side of the door you are on and would instead base that decision on what you are going to be doing at the entry point.



Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[Arctic1]

I'll expound on the room clearing drill tomorrow, as I see that my statement makes no sense taken out of context.

But I do not agree with the switch shoulder technique myself, for that particular application.

[Arctic1]

If you are going to be clearing rooms and buildings, and you're expected to shoot weak side 0-25 yards, then you should train to do that proficiently - or make sure you're the guy in line with your gun facing the "right" direction. Ha!

What would you cut out of training in order to be able to this?

Again, keep in mind that a GPF infantry soldier is expected to do many things. He is not exclusively on the range shooting drills.

[Moltke]

My point was - if you're expected to do it, then train so you can.

Sometimes a left / right stagger can be beneficial, maybe if you're nuts to butts in the stack? But if you have the opportunity to shoot strong side, you always should. If you HAVE to shoot weak side, then be able to do it, simple.

How much training should you put towards it? Well you may want to ask the following questions -

Am I ever going to have to do this? If yes then keep asking questions.

When I do this am I going to need to be proficient? If yes then keep asking questions.

What defines proficient? Establish some standards and train to those standards.

Once you reach those standards then move on and focus on something else.

[Arctic1]

I can't be absolute in my statement as I am not familiar with the totality of your enclosure TTPs, so take it for what it is worth, but I would disagree with the switching of shoulders based on what side of the door you are on and would instead base that decision on what you are going to be doing at the entry point.

As I said yesterday, I would expound on this in order to provide some context.

We use MOUT battle drills as standardized by the NATO FIBUA/MOUT Work Group:

http://www.nato.int/structur/ntg/asg.htm#5

I am going to adress specifically how we do a 2(3)-man entry of a room, closed but unlocked door.

The squad leader will assign the following tasks to the 3-man entry team, prior to making entry:


Number 1 man: first man through the door
Number 2 man: second man through door, tasked with throwing grenades when needed
Number 3 man: Tasked with opening door, indicating grenade type to be used, responsible for counting down for entry


When we enter a room, we follow a threat focused methodology. We do not focus on points of domination, running walls or clearing corners. The number 1 man, when the door is opened (on the count of three, done silently), will clear as much as he can from the doorway, exposing as little of himself or his weapon as possible. If/when he locates a threat he will start to engage and enter the room, moving towards the threat. He must take care not to over-extend in to the room.

And before anyone reads too much in to it, no, he does not loiter in the doorway.

The number 2 man will then follow the number 1 man in to the room, and will continue to clear the area not yet cleared and engage any further threats in that area. The number 3 man will wait ouside the room, and will only enter when called to support.

When number 1 and 2 have control of the room, and feel comfortable that there are no active threats, they will perform a scan and assess of the room. They start with the horizontal plane, then scan above, then below, before ending up on either an engaged threat or an opening where a threat can emerge.

I think that will suffice, else it gets too complex and waaay OT.

And to emphasize once more, I am not advocating NOT working on weak/support side shooting or weapon manipulation. I am however questioning how much time should be spent on this, considering that barricade/support shooting is "easier" than off-hand shooting on the move and that there is very little benefit, IMO, to draw from switching shoulders prior to entering a room for example.

[Failure2Stop]

I would say that there are numerous reasons why most nations have departed from the NATO manual on that.

Side note: when I mentioned "the totality"of your TTPs, I mean far beyond just single entry point, simple room layout clearance. I would have to see everything before being willing to advise change


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[Arctic1]

I would say that there are numerous reasons why most nations have departed from the NATO manual on that.

Side note: when I mentioned "the totality"of your TTPs, I mean far beyond just single entry point, simple room layout clearance. I would have to see everything before being willing to advise change


Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

Copy, a bit too comprehensive to delve in to on an online forum, I think....

As for why we follow the NATO manual, it is what it is. There has been a lot of debate internally, but the main FIBUA/MOUT guy in the Army, who is our representative in the WG, has put his foot down and said that we will follow those TTPs.

We had one unit using 4 man drills, with focus on points of domination and clearing corners. It was perceived like they were undermining centralized efforts to keep a degree of uniforimty across the board in regards to TTPs. I have never tried 4 man drills, so cannot comment on their efficacy compared to the one I have used.

[halmbarte]

Shooting weak side is a skill, like shooting quickly close up or precisely at long range. Should you practice any skill to the exclusion of other useful skills? No, of course not.

But I have seen right handed shooters freeze up totally when forced to shoot left handed. No idea where to put hands or how to get their heads down behind the sights weak sided.

Never seen a lefty freeze, I suppose they are more used to adapting.

H

[26 Inf]

We use MOUT battle drills as standardized by the NATO FIBUA/MOUT Work Group:

http://www.nato.int/structur/ntg/asg.htm#5



Where can one get a publication which includes these battle drills?

For example as in the ARTEP 7-8 Drills pub - http://www.usu.edu/armyrotc/Tools/Battle%20Drills%20artep7_8d.pdf

[T2C]

My earlier comments would apply to people with less training than you indicate and who normally work alone or with one other person.

Without more knowledge about your TTP for dynamic entry and room clearing, I could not provide intelligent comment about the benefits and issues related specifically to your switching sides with a shoulder mounted weapon while clearing your assigned areas.

Generally, you cannot count on another person in the stick to go the original direction intended, left or right, when entering the room. If they respond to an immediate threat, it may require them to react differently than planned. If that is the case, you cannot predetermine which shoulder would be the best side to mount the weapon even if you had equal skills shooting off both the left and right shoulders.

I don't know anyone who has the same degree of proficiency at shooting both right and left handed. I would want people making entry to apply the technique that would give them the greatest chances for success. Picking up one or two tenths of a second to put the sights on a problem may be beneficial in one way, but detrimental in another way if you are not shooting off the strong side.

I would like to hear more about your own experiences and opinions.

[Slab]

So I’ll throw out the pertinent disclaimers;
1. I’m not Mil.
2. I’m not LE
3. And we don’t have Holiday Inn Expresses here…

My training back ground includes the likes of Paul Howe, Bennie Cooley, Jason Falla, Clint Smith, and others…Some of these Instructors advocate support side shooting/training, while others not so much. So, I’ve certainly trained in that manner, and can move between strong/support shoulders proficiently, however I find myself (as a Civi guy) training 99.99% strong side when it comes to the long gun. The main reason FOR ME, was the eye opener demo at CSAT (Paul H. AKA Uncle Paul).

The rational I have been presented with, for support side shooting, includes decreased target signature for our threat to utilize against us and maximize the use of cover for us. A sound principal to be sure!!! Versus increased target signature when utilizing your strong side shoulder around the support side piece of cover (probably more like concealment)…

What I noticed is when we were asked to engage his (Uncle Paul's) steel A-zone target at distance, from our support side shoulder on the support side barricade, we had less body exposure but increased “dwell time”. So yes, we here better hidden, but exposed for a longer period of time. When we utilized the strong side shoulder around the support side of the barricade, we exposed more body, for significantly less time, and most importantly in my mind, were able to deliver fast/lethal hits. It was almost, you could say, like switching from a “defensive mindset” (hide more/expose longer) to an “offensive mindset” (hide a little less, but engage quickly and accurately)… As I stated earlier, this is MY take away so it means <zero… Bennie teaches what he calls ( I think) a “butt stock shoulder roll” for clearing those right handed corners (Or left corners for the wrong handed:D), which I have found FOR ME to be faster and more accurate than trying to roll with rifle on my support side…that being said, I would argue the mission might also dictate some of this. In other words, if an individual is being tasked with “taking the hostage shot”, I guess it would boil down to his/her “comfort level” with that technique…But that is not my lane…