View Full Version : Deactivating lower without destroying it.
Hi
Need a quick reply here.
Is drilling out the pin hammer and trigger holes in a lower a good way to deactivate it?
Hitchhiker
08-29-13, 08:41
I don't know the laws in Norway but I suspect if the holes were drilled oversizes they could be made functional by simply sleeving them.
20 years ago I saw deactivated M16's in Europe that had nothing done to the lower receivers as the law only required modifying the parts that were,"exposed to chamber pressure." In fact some places in Europe still sell M16 lower receivers with no paperwork.
Yeah, but the laws changed so that the lower is now the firearm part.
Any suggestions on how to deactivate a lower.....?
Machine off the pivot pin holes?
hotrodder636
08-29-13, 08:47
How "deactivated" does it need to be? Cut in half would do the job....
Hitchhiker
08-29-13, 08:48
I'd have to think about it a while to figure out something. I have seen similar firearms deactivated in Europe. I think they also have some in Canada.
Hitchhiker
08-29-13, 08:51
Sometimes the front take down pin holes on either the upper or lower receiver are cut open to form ears. When attempting to fire the firearm, the two receivers would separate.
How "deactivated" does it need to be? Cut in half would do the job....
It is meant to be used as a showroom demo, so cut in half is a bit extreme ;)
I know nothing about the laws in Norway, they may have very specific guidelines on how to deactivate the lower. However, with that said, I would imagine filling the trigger pocket in with something, like say Devcon Steel or similar would make the firearm unable to work, heck you could even entomb a trigger into it, give it a bit more realism. Perhaps the same with the magazine well, or the buffer tube, that would prevent the bolt carrier group from being able to move at all.
Mall_Ninja
08-29-13, 11:19
The law should specify what is acceptable as deactivated. After all, what would they prosecute you for? They can't say you didnt "properly" deactivate it if the law has no provisions for "what" exactly is considered "deactivated".
Can the lower still be semi-auto? If only deactivating the machine gun parts, just TIG the sear holes shut. Then you have an AR-15 lower. If it must no longer be considered a "firearm" you would probably have to weld the hammer and trigger pin holes as well...
Before some keyboard hero jumps in and says im an idiot, as welding will screw up the "temper" or heat treat/stress relief, you did say it would just be a show room demo...
That is kind of the issue actually. The gov, in the form of the police, has said to deactivate the lower. When asked what qualifies as "deactivated", the reply was:
"We don't have that kind of technical knowledge, but just deactivate it".....:rolleyes:
It is a stripped lower, no internals at all.
patrick sweeney
08-29-13, 11:59
If they are leaving it up to you, then the Devcon approach sounds reasonable. And if you want a more realistic appearance entomb a trigger and pin set in it.
If anyone asks, you put the pins and trigger in both to keep the Devcon from oozing out, and to make it more difficult if some moron tried to machine the Devcon out.
CrazyFingers
08-29-13, 12:44
So they've ordered you to deactivate it without giving any guidance on how deactivated it needs to be? Brilliant. How are you ever to know if you've complied with their directives?
the reply was:
"We don't have that kind of technical knowledge, but just deactivate it".....:rolleyes:
My inner Brig Lawyer immediately jumped to doing what you'd said with the hammer/trigger pin holes...
...because if they don't agree that that deactivates it, you have direct evidence in the form of correspondence from the agency demanding the act that they "...don't have that kind of technical knowledge..." to tell you that drilling out the pin holes DOESN'T deactivate it.
I'll agree with some others. In the U.S. we have specific requirements to deactivate something. If there is no statute or guidance where you are it could be problematic. Do you guys have a state agency that deals with firearms? If not a Norwegian version of the BATFE at least something like the state criminal investigation bureau.
Yeah, but the laws changed so that the lower is now the firearm part.
Any suggestions on how to deactivate a lower.....?
Machine off the pivot pin holes?
You better dig up the Norwegian law on that. In Funland deactivation laws have changed quite a bit recently and owners of old deactivated weapons are in a bit of limbo as it is not clear is it legal for them to own the (ex)weapons.
The most recent, EU based, deactivation is very strict and detailed on how to make the deactivation. I bet your system is too.
patrick sweeney
08-29-13, 15:35
The crux of the matter is that the authorities have put him on the horns of a dilemma.
The law doesn't say what is required. The police refuse to offer an opinion, since they don't want to be creating a precedent. they want to leave up to his expertise. (And, of course, if anything goes wrong later, his "expertise" will not have been good enough, regardless of what he does.)
As rarely as these words pass my lips, I have to say it; you need to talk to an attorney.
Is burying lower out of question? I'd rather bury lower for rainy day than "deactivate" it. But I'm from the South Eastern U.S., were known for our defiance and willingness to bury weapons..
patrick sweeney
08-29-13, 15:58
That's not smart. he's already asked the local police about how to deactivate it. If they are no help, and the lower suddenly "goes missing" with no good account for it, he could generate trouble he doesn't need.
Just to put everyones minds at ease, no-one is in any trouble here. At all.
The lowers (2) are currently stored by a gunsmith, awaiting word from the Police Directorate on what specifically to do in order to deactivate them. The answer we got previously was from the Weapons License Office of Oslo PD.
The lowers are not mine, but belong to the company I work for. They were ordered in good faith, before I started working there, with no knowledge of the law having been changed. The owner was informed of this by the customs officer responsible for doing the customs tax on the shipment.
As stated, the intention now is to use them for the showroom, but in order to do that we need to deactivate them. We are currently applying for a firearms dealer license, but since we do not have one yet, we cannot have working weapon parts on display.
It might end up with us having to cut them in half, but I was just checking to see if anyone knew of a way to render them inoperable without destroying them.
I also find it odd that there are no specific guidelines on how to do this, but I have searched all over for any clues. All I find is a mention of establishing these guidelines, but that they currently don't exist; this is dated 2011.
http://www.regjeringen.no/mobil/nb/dep/jd/dok/nouer/2011/nou-2011-19/22.html?id=668431
You guys probably cannot read norwegian, but the link is there anyways...
SomeOtherGuy
08-29-13, 16:28
We have an extreme "gotcha!" culture in the US when it comes to firearms laws. Extreme caution is warranted here. I'm under the impression much of the western world is much saner and more reasonable.
I would think Devcon or hot welding in the trigger pocket area would be good. Or sealing up the receiver extension area. Or if you just want to display lower by itself without an upper, welding (or Devcon) the pins in place so it can't be attached to an upper. Just some ideas.
Of course, this is not legal advice, yadda yadda...
Just to put everyones minds at ease, no-one is in any trouble here. At all.
The lowers (2) are currently stored by a gunsmith, awaiting word from the Police Directorate on what specifically to do in order to deactivate them. The answer we got previously was from the Weapons License Office of Oslo PD.
The lowers are not mine, but belong to the company I work for. They were ordered in good faith, before I started working there, with no knowledge of the law having been changed. The owner was informed of this by the customs officer responsible for doing the customs tax on the shipment.
As stated, the intention now is to use them for the showroom, but in order to do that we need to deactivate them. We are currently applying for a firearms dealer license, but since we do not have one yet, we cannot have working weapon parts on display.
It might end up with us having to cut them in half, but I was just checking to see if anyone knew of a way to render them inoperable without destroying them.
I also find it odd that there are no specific guidelines on how to do this, but I have searched all over for any clues.
What do you want to keep functioning?
Nothing really, except keeping the appearance as close to original as possible.
But the welding option sounds good though, if it is impossible to remove after it is done.
We want to comply with the vague laws that are in place.
Could it be sawed in half lengthwise? So that you have a right and left half? You could then mock it up and the pins would hold it together for display purposes. For those here in the US, would that be acceptable to the BATF?
Some people need to read more and post less. We aren't talking about acceptable U.S methods and we're not talking about burying it in defiance. This is to be used for a display and needs to conform to Norwegian standards or lack thereof.
There are quite specific rules for uppers and barrel assemblies, BCG's, firing pins, how to cut, plug and weld these parts, and requirements for complete weapons (upper and lower must be welded together to prevent disassembly).
Nothing specific for lowers.
The general requirement is that it must be "rendered permanently inoperable" and "in a fashion that does not allow the deactivated or modified part to be repaired".
Put the FCG in place and Devcon the FC pocket and be done. That fulfills the function you need while physically deactivating the lower. That deactivation is very visible and even those without "technical knowledge" can understand if it is put in front of them.
OP, you stated you already had the lowers in holding, pending yall getting your license but I am wondering if an 80% lower would suit your purpose? Are those legal to possess there? An 80% is pretty much already in the state you need with an unmilled FC pocket. You won't be able to install FCG though. But is that detail a necessity here?
As stated previously, it is a stripped lower, and we have no FCG or LPK.
I do wish I had one, as that would be easier to work with, as you say yourself.
The degree of completeness is not a factor when determining legality over here.
ETA: pardon my ignorance on 80% lowers, just googled it and I do believe that one of those would not be considered a weapon part.
Does it need to be inspect able to those viewing it as a collection piece?
Fill the FCG/LPK area area with epoxy/JB Weld and clean out the very tip of the pin holes with a Q-Tip so it looks correct from the outside.
As stated previously, it is a stripped lower, and we have no FCG or LPK.
I do wish I had one, as that would be easier to work with, as you say yourself.
The degree of completeness is not a factor when determining legality over here.
ETA: pardon my ignorance on 80% lowers, just googled it and I do believe that one of those would not be considered a weapon part.
I apologize, I missed that.
As far as using the Devcon, you should be able to tape the FC pin holes on the outside of the receiver and the trigger slot. Then fill the pocket. The tape will keep the Devcon contained and the holes will fill in. If you added a pigment for color it would make for an easy visual on the holes. It would glaringly and obviously fill the FC pocket to show willing compliance with deactivation.
ETA: If the pins are not an ITAR item, get them and put them in place. Tape them on the outside so they don't slide out on you either way. Tape the trigger slot. Fill with Devcon.
If pins are an ITAR item, get the measurement for them online and hit a machine or metal supply house and get the size pieces you need.
Overall I think you've got a few ways to skin this cat and remain above the board and legal.
Just to put everyones minds at ease, no-one is in any trouble here. At all.
The lowers (2) are currently stored by a gunsmith, awaiting word from the Police Directorate on what specifically to do in order to deactivate them. The answer we got previously was from the Weapons License Office of Oslo PD.
The lowers are not mine, but belong to the company I work for. They were ordered in good faith, before I started working there, with no knowledge of the law having been changed. The owner was informed of this by the customs officer responsible for doing the customs tax on the shipment.
As stated, the intention now is to use them for the showroom, but in order to do that we need to deactivate them. We are currently applying for a firearms dealer license, but since we do not have one yet, we cannot have working weapon parts on display.
It might end up with us having to cut them in half, but I was just checking to see if anyone knew of a way to render them inoperable without destroying them.
I also find it odd that there are no specific guidelines on how to do this, but I have searched all over for any clues. All I find is a mention of establishing these guidelines, but that they currently don't exist; this is dated 2011.
http://www.regjeringen.no/mobil/nb/dep/jd/dok/nouer/2011/nou-2011-19/22.html?id=668431
You guys probably cannot read norwegian, but the link is there anyways...
From this, I deduce that you have to permanently deactivate it.
That provides no path for recovery.
After filling the FC pocket, you can cut and glue a trigger into position.
Army Chief
09-01-13, 15:08
You really do need a local resource for that data, as others have stated, as the legal definition of "deactivation" varies considerably from one country to another. For example, for automatic weapons, what meets the bar in Germany (cut bolt and drilled barrel) completely fails to satisfy US requirements (cut receiver). It can also vary from one weapon system to another, depending upon the physical characteristics of the weapon, and which components are actually subject to registration.
I do understand that we're talking rather specifically about stripped lowers here, but if those are weapons under Norwegian law, then I suspect torch cutting (component destruction) or some kind of specific welding (rendering them permanently inoperable) would be the only acceptable methods.
At the very least, I would see if perhaps an expert in the Euro zone could field the question for you.
AC
My inner Brig Lawyer immediately jumped to doing what you'd said with the hammer/trigger pin holes...
...because if they don't agree that that deactivates it, you have direct evidence in the form of correspondence from the agency demanding the act that they "...don't have that kind of technical knowledge..." to tell you that drilling out the pin holes DOESN'T deactivate it.
This sounds good in theory, but if let's say here in NJ you call the local PD or even SP and they tell you it's ok to have a collapsible stock this carries no weight in court. If they stated this to him in writing from the right department then that could have some impact however.
OP I suggest you make additional attempts at contacting the right people for the right answer, eventually someone will point you in the right direction. Ask for a link to something in print and official. If that doesn't work and you think there is almost no chance for any sort of inspection beyond a quick handling and glance then I'd simply improvise as needed.
I would want something in writing from whoever has the authority to prosecute you in your area before making a decision on how to deactivate the lower receiver.
I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to just get hold of the most realistic airsoft replica you can find for your display purposes.
Army Chief
09-02-13, 04:28
The display angle isn't the real issue here. The problem is that the lowers are already on-hand, and presumably cannot be completed.
I'd install enough parts to look correct (trigger and pins), propose welding-up the entire FCG to the point where nothing was usable, functional or removable, and see if the local authorities would be willing to document their acceptance of this particular solution.
AC
I realize this isn't exactly what you asked, but something to think about..
Make a cutaway for display; aggressively remove material showing inside the mag well, and trigger group, leaving the take down pin holes and receiver extension threads intact. Assemble it, but weld and/or epoxy the trigger group in since it will be missing the support of the pin holes on the near side. Color the cut edges in red for effect.
It would be a lot cooler to look at, and more educational than an inert looking gun shaped object.
What if you just cut a square through one side of where the hammer pin is, then weld the tip of a hammer pin on the display side for show purposes (weld from the inside so it isn't as obvious for display purposes, but can be turned around to see). Then you can regularly install a trigger that can be pulled, but no hammer could be installed?
WhiskyNiner
09-03-13, 14:16
"As stated, the intention now is to use them for the showroom, but in order to do that we need to deactivate them. We are currently applying for a firearms dealer license, but since we do not have one yet, we cannot have working weapon parts on display.
It might end up with us having to cut them in half, but I was just checking to see if anyone knew of a way to render them inoperable without destroying them."
Could it be as simple as taking out the lower parts?
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