Meanwhile, Obama's base is striking for a $15 an hour raise.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Yeah, like no kidding. The FSA wants to get $15 an hour at McDonalds for flipping burgers.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/29/fast-food-workers-strike-across-the-nation-demand-15-an-hour/

So a portion of these workers who dropped out of school, made bad decisions that our society told them ahead of time it was a bad decision (drugs, pregnant while a teen, or out of wed-lock), they want to make the same as a trained, skilled worker, or college grad? When I was an OTR trucker, I was making that, if not more at times, but not much.

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-fast-food-protests-20130829,0,5191267.story


The fast-food industry used to employ mostly younger people just trying to make some extra money as they went through school. Now, workers are older and depend on the work to feed families. Analysis by the Economic Policies Institute shows that the average age of minimum-wage workers is now 35, and that 88% are 20 and older.

And they voter for the retard that got them there...again!!!!

We are so screwed.

[nimdabew]

Pilots don't get 15/hr when they are starting out. Wheres the outrage for them?

http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/just-doesnt-fly-some-airline-pilots-barely-make-living-wage-8C11022539

[Texas42]

starting wage at McDonalds is $14.50 here.

[Big A]

I hope they get it and I hope it cripples the fast food industry.

Americans need to start eating healthier anyway. We could stand to see some McDonalds and Burger Kings close up.

[Doc Safari]

I hope they get it and I hope it cripples the fast food industry.

Ditto. I can go to a real restaurant, get free chips-n-salsa and a properly made hamburger. If I order water for my drink I STILL pay less than I do at a fast food joint even counting the tip.



Americans need to start eating healthier anyway. We could stand to see some McDonalds and Burger Kings close up.

I think people should be able to eat what they want regardless of whether or not it's healthy.

Having said that, there is no love lost between me and any company that shovels a crappy product and treats its employees like cattle.

This could rip open the floodgates of people protesting other companies.

[Big A]

Ditto. I can go to a real restaurant, get free chips-n-salsa and a properly made hamburger. If I order water for my drink I STILL pay less than I do at a fast food joint even counting the tip.



I think people should be able to eat what they want regardless of whether or not it's healthy.

Having said that, there is no love lost between me and any company that shovels a crappy product and treats its employees like cattle.

This could rip open the floodgates of people protesting other companies.

I certainly want everyone to be free to make their own choices, both good and bad, but I view fast food joints and "reality tv" as black mark on our society as a whole. We won WWII then went and landed on the moon, created the internet and now we've become a nation of instant gratification, pop culture obsessed imbeciles...

[khc3]

And economic reality follows close behind:

Local McDonald’s Forced To Close Amid Protest For Higher Wages (http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/08/29/local-mcdonalds-forced-to-close-amid-protest-over-higher-wages/)

Note to the economically illiterate: the real "minimum wage" is $0.

[GotAmmo]

I think people should be able to eat what they want regardless of whether or not it's healthy.

yes...please continue to cripple our already crippled medical system

[Honu]

They are entitled
Chances are they are also on some other kinda welfare to making more than most military folks !

I hope they get it also

I am at the point we need to hit the reset button though :)

[TAZ]

I hope they get it and I hope it cripples the fast food industry.

Americans need to start eating healthier anyway. We could stand to see some McDonalds and Burger Kings close up.

My thoughts exactly. Let them get their $15/hr minimum wage and then realize that they can't afford shit cause it cost more due to increased labor costs.

[Doc Safari]

yes...please continue to cripple our already crippled medical system

What the Hell happened to freedom in this country?

[Big A]

And economic reality follows close behind:

Local McDonald’s Forced To Close Amid Protest For Higher Wages (http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/08/29/local-mcdonalds-forced-to-close-amid-protest-over-higher-wages/)

Note to the economically illiterate: the real "minimum wage" is $0.

:)


My thoughts exactly. Let them get their $15/hr minimum wage and then realize that they can't afford shit cause it cost more due to increased labor costs.

Or, like in the above link the business shuts down and they go from making minimum wage to making jack shit...:)

[skydivr]

And economic reality follows close behind:

Local McDonald’s Forced To Close Amid Protest For Higher Wages (http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/08/29/local-mcdonalds-forced-to-close-amid-protest-over-higher-wages/)

Note to the economically illiterate: the real "minimum wage" is $0.

For the workers, its a no lose: If company closes, they got laid off and get paid unemployment for the next 3 years to sit on their ass and make as much or more than they were when working....which was the play in the first place...what McDonalds needed to do was list ALL THEIR JOBS and fire them for failure to appear. Jeez I'm so glad I live in a right to work (i.e. right to fire) state...

[gun71530]

yes...please continue to cripple our already crippled medical system

I guess we better ban smoking and reenact prohibition than....

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[nimdabew]

I hope they get it and I hope it cripples the fast food industry.

Americans need to start eating healthier anyway. We could stand to see some McDonalds and Burger Kings close up.

The problem with this mentality is that it undercuts all of the minimum wage jobs - $15/hr. Those businesses now lose their economic survivability by drawing workers from what was a good paying job, to a no skill, burger flipping job. I don't get paid $15/hr and I am considered a "skilled" worker. I hope half the people that demand this shit get their 15/hr and then get laid off because the employer can't afford to keep them employed. **** this shit.

[NWPilgrim]

yes...please continue to cripple our already crippled medical system

People making unhealthy choices do not cripple our medical system. It is government demanding that insurers cover costs for their care and not able to charge more for it. In other words, if the govt did not force us all to underwrite consequences of bad choices then we could all enjoy premiums appropriate for our lifestyle. Most people would puke if they had to pay for their choices such as fast food, smoking, drugs, excessive drinking, mountain climbing, riding motorcycles, DUI, staying in hospitals (infections), etc.

Blame the real culprits. And Obamacare just makes it all even worse.

As for the fast food and minimum wage: I say make it $50/hr! I mean if there is no bad effect (choke!) then why stop at $15/hr. I think we should all make $100/hr, work 20 hrs/wk, and have total healthcare and 3 months vacation. Why not!
(/sarcasm)

[Honu]

sadly they will make more on welfare and think WOW I should have done this earlier


:)



Or, like in the above link the business shuts down and they go from making minimum wage to making jack shit...:)

[kwelz]

After I shut down my own business I went to work at Best Buy. I interviewed for a managers position and didn't get it. They ask me to come on as a normal employee in the hopes of a position opening up in management because they really like my skill set.

I went to work there making 10 bucks and hour part time. I still managed to keep up on my bills and still pay for and take my Classes to get my Real Estate License.

I am terrible with money. If I can do it so can these idiots.

[jmoney]

Read in one of the news articles, can't remember where at the moment, but they are already considering robots to replace most of these people. I think the demo was one cooking pancakes. Its not far off. I'm sure after today that development might speed up just a little bit.

[Alaskapopo]

I hope they get it and I hope it cripples the fast food industry.

Americans need to start eating healthier anyway. We could stand to see some McDonalds and Burger Kings close up.

I don't have the source handy but I read if Walmart raised its employees wages to $12 an hour from minimum wage it would only cost the customer about 50 cents more a purchase. Nothing to cry over here. People do deserve a living wage. Rather that is $15 an hour or $10 is going to depend on the region. I am glad the workers are figthing back against the fat cats. The more you see the divide grow between rich and poor the more protests you will see like this. We are on the verge of class warefare. Its high time big corporations start treating their people like people and paying a fair wage. If some CEO's bonus needs to be cut a few millon so the workers can make a living so be it.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

These are astro turf protests.
Paid union protesters.
The unions are in their death throes.

[kwelz]

I don't have the source handy but I read if Walmart raised its employees wages to $12 an hour from minimum wage it would only cost the customer about 50 cents more a purchase. Nothing to cry over here.

I believe it was 50 cents per item. And that was a flawed study that only took into account the wage itself and not the other cost associated with having employees.

[Alaskapopo]

Quite the contrary its unorgaized groups basically trying to act as a union. Its the start of working class people getting fed up with being screwed over and should if anything be a boon to union membership.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

I believe it was 50 cents per item. And that was a flawed study that only took into account the wage itself and not the other cost associated with having employees.

I read 50 cents on the total purchase but even if your right its not that much money. The money suckers are on the top at the CEO level.
Pat

[jmoney]

I read 50 cents on the total purchase but even if your right its not that much money. The money suckers are on the top at the CEO level.
Pat

or just don't shop at wal-mart, anyone who does is in fact enabling them

don't think i've set foot in one of their stores in over 5years...

[polymorpheous]

Quite the contrary its unorgaized groups basically trying to act as a union. Its the start of working class people getting fed up with being screwed over and should if anything be a boon to union membership.
Pat

I call bullshit.
It's the UCFW and SEIU.

[polymorpheous]

I heard several callers this morning on the radio that were daily McDonald's patrons.
Same crew working inside, people they have never seen before protesting outside.

Flipping burgers is not a $15 an hour job.
These are jobs meant for high school and college kids, or as secondary incomes.
They are not meant to raise a family on.
And these companies are not obligated to provide such a wage.

Any notion to the contrary is pure OWS libtard bullshit.

[JW5219]

These are astro turf protests.
Paid union protesters.
The unions are in their death throes.

+1 on this

[Alaskapopo]

or just don't shop at wal-mart, anyone who does is in fact enabling them

don't think i've set foot in one of their stores in over 5years...

I don't shop there either due to their union busting tactics and poor treatment of their workers.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

I heard several callers this morning on the radio that were daily McDonald's patrons.
Same crew working inside, people they have never seen before protesting outside.

Flipping burgers is not a $15 an hour job.
These are jobs meant for high school and college kids, or as secondary incomes.
They are not meant to raise a family on.
And these companies are not obligated to provide such a wage.

Any notion to the contrary is pure OWS libtard bullshit.

You can't have a two tier wage system. The job is worth a set amount rather a high school kid works it or a 30 year old father of 5. Labor is labor.
Rather its worth $15 an hour is up to a lot of factors. If these guys strike is successful and no one else is willing to work for less then it is worth $15 an hour.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

I call bullshit.
It's the UCFW and SEIU.

They may be helping the cause because they agree with them much like the NRA may support local gun clubs. Regardless its good to see people fighting for their rights.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

But people are willing to work for the job of burger flipper for less than $15 an hour.
A lot of people.

This isn't the same as some illegal taking jobs away from a skilled tradesman, for instance a dry-waller, and driving down the wage.

The wage is determined by a fair market value.

[Alaskapopo]

But people are willing to work for the job of burger flipper for less than $15 an hour.
A lot of people.

This isn't the same as some illegal taking jobs away from a skilled tradesman, for instance a dry-waller, and driving down the wage.

The wage is determined by a fair market value.

I guess we will find out. If the workers stand strong and people respect them enough not to be strike breakers they will win. In the meantime it will hurt the bottom line for those companies which is also good.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

They may be helping the cause because they agree with them much like the NRA may support local gun clubs. Regardless its good to see people fighting for their rights.
Pat

What rights exactly are you talking about?

[Alaskapopo]

What rights exactly are you talking about?

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. People have a right to get paid a fair wage for a their labor. People have the right to assemble and protest things. Glad to see the people standing up to the big corporations.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

There is no right to a "fair wage" protected in our constitution.

[jmoney]

Additionally I'm still waiting for some to explain to me "how" that works merits anything more than what is currently offered.

[polymorpheous]

Well obviously the workers are entitled to the same wage as a skilled worker.
You know, they got to stick it to the big corporations.

[Alaskapopo]

There is no right to a "fair wage" protected in our constitution.

Maybe its high time we added it. Its hard to have a good life, enjoy liberty and pursue happiness when you can't make a living wage. Many socialist/communist revolutions have been started because of the poor fighting back against the abuses of the rich. Its time that the rich start policing themselves and not treating their workers like garbage.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Maybe its high time we added it. Its hard to have a good life, enjoy liberty and pursue happiness when you can't make a living wage. Many socialist/communist revolutions have been started because of the poor fighting back against the abuses of the rich. Its time that the rich start policing themselves and not treating their workers like garbage.
Pat

Finally showed your true colors!
Tell you what, why don't you spearhead this communist revolution.

[Crow Hunter]

I read 50 cents on the total purchase but even if your right its not that much money. The money suckers are on the top at the CEO level.
Pat

I personally am not willing to do this.

Do you give an extra $.50 to the person checking you out every time you buy something?;)

If not, you should, if it is that important to you.

I agree there is a serious divide in this country between the rich and poor. I think something needs to be done. I disagree with government mandates of a minimum "living wage". It drive the prices up for everyone with no actual benefit other than driving up inflation.

The number one thing we need to do is decrease the number of low skilled employees and one way of doing that is deporting all the illegal aliens and restricting immigration.

I could flip burgers right now, just as good as a high school drop out. I changed oil in cars, bagged groceries and stocked shelves, even worked in a Carhartt factory flipping bundles and sewing insulated overalls for years in HS & College. It took no skill whatsoever, practically anyone could do it. They also sucked, and that is why I went to and stayed in college.

The reason white collar workers, like me, command a high wage is because there are fewer of us available than people who could flip burgers. If companies got their way an allowed millions and millions of trained engineers from India, China, Eastern European countries my wage would be at less than the "living wage". (They are trying real hard with Facebook Founder Suckberg leading the charge claiming it will "help innovation". Yeah right.)

That is something that all of us, the Proletariat, must do is make our labor (human capital) more scarce and valuable. But I don't think it needs to be done by the government nor should it be artificial from Unions.

[Big A]

I guess we will find out. If the workers stand strong and people respect them enough not to be strike breakers they will win. In the meantime it will hurt the bottom line for those companies which is also good.
Pat

And when these places close up because people aren't willing to pay higher prices for the royale with cheese combo nobody is employed. And there will be less tax revenue for the municipalities to pay their workers. And then people will begin leaving for greener pastures further lowering the revenue of the municipality.

I agree these people get paid shit, but it's a shit job. It's not something people are supposed to use to support a family of 5.

[Alaskapopo]

I personally am not willing to do this.

Do you give an extra $.50 to the person checking you out every time you buy something?;)

If not, you should, if it is that important to you.

I agree there is a serious divide in this country between the rich and poor. I think something needs to be done. I disagree with government mandates of a minimum "living wage". It drive the prices up for everyone with no actual benefit other than driving up inflation.

The number one thing we need to do is decrease the number of low skilled employees and one way of doing that is deporting all the illegal aliens and restricting immigration.

I could flip burgers right now, just as good as a high school drop out. I changed oil in cars, bagged groceries and stocked shelves, even worked in a Carhartt factory flipping bundles and sewing insulated overalls for years in HS & College. It took no skill whatsoever, practically anyone could do it. They also sucked, and that is why I went to and stayed in college.

The reason white collar workers, like me, command a high wage is because there are fewer of us available than people who could flip burgers. If companies got their way an allowed millions and millions of trained engineers from India, China, Eastern European countries my wage would be at less than the "living wage". (They are trying real hard with Facebook Founder Suckberg leading the charge claiming it will "help innovation". Yeah right.)

That is something that all of us, the Proletariat, must do is make our labor (human capital) more scarce and valuable. But I don't think it needs to be done by the government nor should it be artificial from Unions.

I would rather buisness paid a fair wage without being forced to and some do. But our country is overcome by greed.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

And when these places close up because people aren't willing to pay higher prices for the royale with cheese combo nobody is employed. And there will be less tax revenue for the municipalities to pay their workers. And then people will begin leaving for greener pastures further lowering the revenue of the municipality.

I agree these people get paid shit, but it's a shit job. It's not something people are supposed to use to support a family of 5.

People will pay the slightly higer prices if everyone else is also paying their workers a fair wage and increasing their prices slightly as well. Or heaven forbid the management and CEO's could absorb the difference in their huge ass bonus.

[polymorpheous]

But our country is overcome by greed.
Pat

Coming from a guy who's always talking about suing for that big payoff.

[Alaskapopo]

Coming from a guy who's always talking about suing for that big payoff.

All right for starters watch your tone. You know the rules here so follow them. Secondly the time I talked about suing was not for a big payout for myself but rather to make it painful for an employer who willfully disregarded labor law. Yea that is right people who break the law should be accountable.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Finally showed your true colors!
Tell you what, why don't you spearhead this communist revolution.

I was giving you a history lesson not supporting a communist revolution. Your true colors are when every you you start to lose an argument you start attacking the poster rather than staying on topic.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

No personal attacks were made.
My tone will remain the same.

Just going to continue to call you out.

[polymorpheous]

My argument has been made.

Yours hold zero water.

[mike240]

Finally showed your true colors!
Tell you what, why don't you spearhead this communist revolution.

Exactly. If they don't like their jobs and wage spent the time to better yourself and get a better job. He speaks of workers rights. What of employers being extorted and held hostage by workers with the support of the regime?

When the supply of workers dries up then employers will make changes. But as long as folks will work, fire these strikers and hire new ones.

But the government is working hard to dry up the supply of workers with entitlements. Or vote bribery...same thing.

[Alaskapopo]

No personal attacks were made.
My tone will remain the same.

Just going to continue to call you out.

Well I will let the moderators deal with it.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Well I will let the moderators deal with it.
Pat

Be my guest.

[Alaskapopo]

Exactly. If they don't like their jobs and wage spent the time to better yourself and get a better job. He speaks of workers rights. What of employers being extorted and held hostage by workers with the support of the regime?

When the supply of workers dries up then employers will make changes. But as long as folks will work, fire these strikers and hire new ones.

But the government is working hard to dry up the supply of workers with entitlements. Or vote bribery...same thing.

Workers can't hold anyone hostage. The employer holds the purse strings and hence most of the power. Only when workers stand united can they effectively negotiate. Also what regime are you talking about? This is a group of workers paid very low wages who are fed up with it and trying to fight back. I support them. Its not a regime.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Again.
Why do burger flippers deserve $15 an hour?
Answer the question instead of regurgitating OWS tripe.

[Alaskapopo]

Again.
Why do burger flippers deserve $15 an hour?
Answer the question instead of regurgitating OWS tripe.

Everyone deserve at least a living wage. A living wage should be enough to feed a man and put him up in a small apartment. You can't do that in most places on a minimum wage job. I am not taking about having a car and lots of toys. Just a living wage. People should not have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. You talk about these workers like they are sub human. Is that your view?
Pat

[Inkslinger]

If they want $15 an hour maybe they should drop the spatula and grab a pick or shovel, leave the air conditioned McShithole and work a 12 hour day in 90+ degree heat.

[polymorpheous]

Everyone deserve at least a living wage. A living wage should be enough to feed a man and put him up in a small apartment. You can't do that in most places on a minimum wage job. I am not taking about having a car and lots of toys. Just a living wage. People should not have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet.
Pat

No everyone doesn't deserve a living wage.
The need to EARN a living wage.
If they can't do this, then it is THEIR responsibility to change that by bettering themselves and making themselves more valuable to the workforce.

Minimum wage is not meant to sustain a family.

Try again.

[polymorpheous]

Subhuman?
Try again Patrick.
Won't work with me.

[Alaskapopo]

No everyone doesn't deserve a living wage.
The need to EARN a living wage.
If they can't do this, then it is THEIR responsibility to change that by bettering themselves and making themselves more valuable to the workforce.

Minimum wage is not meant to sustain a family.

Try again.

No you try again. They are working hard and not being paid a fair wage because of greedy corporations who would rather pay their CEO a 10 million dollar bonus vs raising their line workers wage a couple of bucks an hour.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Their labor isn't worth $15 an hour.

[Caeser25]

I call bullshit.
It's the UCFW and SEIU.

SEIU otherwise known as ACORN.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100996783


Thursday's strike was expected to be "the largest attempt at worker organizing in this industry ever" due to support from the Service Workers International Union, and grassroots efforts from community groups, local politicians and the clergy, said Tsedeye Gebreselassie, an attorney at the National Employment Law Project.


I heard several callers this morning on the radio that were daily McDonald's patrons.
Same crew working inside, people they have never seen before protesting outside.

Flipping burgers is not a $15 an hour job.
These are jobs meant for high school and college kids, or as secondary incomes.
They are not meant to raise a family on.
And these companies are not obligated to provide such a wage.

Any notion to the contrary is pure OWS libtard bullshit.

Exactly.


If these guys strike is successful and no one else is willing to work for less then it is worth $15 an hour.
Pat

So do you believe in free markets or not :confused:

[Alaskapopo]

Their labor isn't worth $15 an hour.

That is not for you to decide. That is for the market to decide. If the workers strike and the company can not fill those jobs than their labor is worth whatever the employer and emploees agree to.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

SEIU otherwise known as ACORN.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100996783





Exactly.



So do you believe in free markets or not :confused:

Organized labor, strikes, slow does etc are all a part of the free market. If labor can't fight back then its more like a slave market not a free market.
Pat

[Inkslinger]

If you flip burgers for a living, you should have plenty of energy to work 2 jobs. At $7.25 an hour, that's more than enough to live on.

[polymorpheous]

The market already has decided.

[polymorpheous]

Organized labor, strikes, slow does etc are all a part of the free market. If labor can't fight back then its more like a slave market not a free market.
Pat

Lol!
Wow.
Slaves, really?
Extremist much?

[Alaskapopo]

If you flip burgers for a living, you should have plenty of energy to work 2 jobs. At $7.25 an hour, that's more than enough to live on.

No one should have to work two jobs just to live on. That is where the government should step in and provide some basic regulations to protect workers rights.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

No one should have to work two jobs just to live on. That is where the government should step in and provide some basic regulations to protect workers rights.
Pat

More government IS NOT the answer.

[NWPilgrim]

No, people do not deserve a "living wage" for doing the most menial work. Not every job should be a "career". There should be entry level, starting out jobs that young people, part-timers, and retired people can do that are supplements or getting experience.

If you want a living wage then get the experience and training or education and work ethic to deserve a living wage. I worked plenty of entry level jobs and it astounds me someone thinks they ought to be able to live on that. You are basically saying that someone no more qualified than to flip burgers ought to be able to pay all their bills. Well they can if they live at home, live in a group home (like college kids), or live out of their car. That should be plenty of incentive to learn a more marketable skill.

If burger flippers "deserve" $15/hr than all more qualified jobs will have to pay hire and all labor costs goes up as well as cost of all goods. If you think $15/hr is good for entry level job and there are no economic repercussions forcing a higher minimum wage then why not $50/hr? Why not $100/hr?

It is shocking that someone can be blinded by labor union sound bites so much that they have no concept of economics, cause and effect, and personal responsibility for advancement.

[Alaskapopo]

The market already has decided.

No it has not. Before this moment it was a once way converstaion with management saying we will pay this. Now the workers are fighting back. We will see what happens. I support the workers on this issue.
Pat

[Big A]

People will pay the slightly higer prices if everyone else is also paying their workers a fair wage and increasing their prices slightly as well. Or heaven forbid the management and CEO's could absorb the difference in their huge ass bonus.

No they won't. The market doesn't support it. The whole business model is based on cheap food prepared and served quickly. The companies will raise the prices and cut back on the size of the product and eventually the business will close up or figure out some way to do it cheaper. This particular market doesn't support $15 an hour wages.

[Alaskapopo]

More government IS NOT the answer.

Some times it is. More corporate greed is definately not the answer.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

No, people do not deserve a "living wage" for doing the most menial work. Not every job should be a "career". There should be entry level, starting out jobs that young people, part-timers, and retired people can do that are supplements or getting experience.

If you want a living wage then get the experience and training or education and work ethic to deserve a living wage. I worked plenty of entry level jobs and it astounds me someone thinks they ought to be able to live on that. You are basically saying that someone no more qualified than to flip burgers ought to be able to pay all their bills. Well they can if they live at home, live in a group home (like college kids), or live out of their car. That should be plenty of incentive to learn a more marketable skill.

If burger flippers "deserve" $15/hr than all more qualified jobs will have to pay hire and all labor costs goes up as well as cost of all goods. If you think $15/hr is good for entry level job and there are no economic repercussions forcing a higher minimum wage then why not $50/hr? Why not $100/hr?

It is shocking that someone can be blinded by labor union sound bites so much that they have no concept of economics, cause and effect, and personal responsibility for advancement.

You sir, win the thread!

[polymorpheous]

Some times it is. More corporate greed is definately not the answer.
Pat

So union greed must be the answer then.

[Caeser25]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100996783


The strike comes as more and more fast-food workers making minimum wage are not teenagers, but adults trying to support families, particularly since the Great Recession.

These are not jobs to support families. WHY do we have this depression, err, great recession:confused: Government intervention in the free market, time and time again.


"The workers are responding to total failure on behalf of the federal government to raise the minimum wage to keep up with inflation and the cost of living," Gebreselassie said.

Yet they are uneducated WHY we have inflation and increased costs of living due to inflation. IF minimum wage increased with inflation, it would be around $20.00 an hour. How is that a man working at a factory 50 years ago could have 5 kids with a stay at home wife/mom and live in the suburbs but not today?


All the media attention paid to the strikers Thursday will surely re-ignite the minimum wage debate, in which opponents say higher employment costs will mean fewer jobs and higher prices for customers. In The Wall Street Journal on Thursday, the conservative Employment Policies Institute ran a full-page ad with a picture of a robot making pancakes, warning that higher wages would mean "fewer entry-level jobs and more automated alternatives."

"You can either raise prices and lose customers, or (automate) those jobs," said Michael Saltsman, EPI's research director. "The idea that restaurants are rolling in the money is not representative of the situation franchisees face."

[Inkslinger]

Lol! Call it 1 job, but you work a 12-16 hour day. That's what self respecting, hard working people in this country past, present, and future did and should do to provide for themselves and their family. Your mindset is one of the reasons this country is broke! Besides if you double their wage then you have to double the price of fast food! Then you'll be pissing of fat people too.

No one should have to work two jobs just to live on. That is where the government should step in and provide some basic regulations to protect workers rights.
Pat

[Belloc]

No you try again. They are working hard and not being paid a fair wage because of greedy corporations who would rather pay their CEO a 10 million dollar bonus vs raising their line workers wage a couple of bucks an hour.
Pat

Not exactly sure how you can claim "Do you want fries with that?" is "working hard"?

Do you have any higher education whatsoever? Community college even? Anything?

How many of these burger-flippers would have served themselves better if they had remained in school, learned a foreign language, studied history, or art, or philosophy, or one of the sciences in their leisure time, worked hard, actually worked hard, at making sure they were always on the Honor Roll, learned and practiced the virtues of temperance, chastity, diligence, and prudence, and believed the pursuit of wisdom worth even a small amount of their time?

[Alaskapopo]

Lol! Call it 1 job, but you work a 12-16 hour day. That's what self respecting, hard working people in this country past, present, and future did and should do to provide for themselves and their family. Your mindset is one of the reasons this country is broke! Besides if you double their wage then you have to double the price of fast food! Then you'll be pissing of fat people too.

12 to 16 hours is excessive and can even be dangerious in some jobs. The 40 hour work week is a good thing. If your working 16 hours a day you literally are a slave to your work place. You only have time to work and sleep with a schedule like that, unless it is a 2 on 2 off schedule or something similar. In Europe the work week is even lower and they have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Not exactly sure how you can claim "Do you want fries with that?" is "working hard"?

Do you have any higher education whatsoever? Community college even? Anything?

How many of these burger-flippers would have served themselves better if they had remained in school, learned a foreign language, studied history, or art, or philosophy, or one of the sciences in their leisure time, worked hard, actually worked hard, at making sure they were always on the Honor Roll, learned and practiced the virtues of temperance, chastity, diligence, and prudence, and believed the pursuit of wisdom worth even a small amount of their time?

4 year Degree in Criminal Justice with a minor in Political Science from the University of Alaska Fairbanks with a 3.34 GPA. Do you have any education outside of sunday school?
Pat

[polymorpheous]

I believe that we told Europe to go **** themselves 236 years ago.
I don't want the taxes nor the government that they have in Europe.

Besides, look at their economy.

[Alaskapopo]

I believe that we told Europe to go **** themselves 236 years ago.
I don't want the taxes nor the government that they have in Europe.

Besides, look at their economy.

Lots has changed in the last 236 years and we would be stupid to ignore things they are doing better.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

All of your arguments fall flat on their face Pat.
Your socialist ideology is flawed.

I really don't understand why you continue to participate on a board that's predominately libertarian.

[Caeser25]

Organized labor, strikes, slow does etc are all a part of the free market. If labor can't fight back then its more like a slave market not a free market.
Pat

Prior being promoted into management, my raises at my work were based upon my performance over the last year instead of me and my fellow employees going on strike demanding more money. If you had your own business, would rather reward your good employees and not the ones that just show up to collect a paycheck? Or raise all of their earnings because they went on strike regardless of individual performance?

Organized labor results in less work being accomplished since the worst employee gets paid the same as the most productive as soon as the good employee realizes this. Why should he/she bust their ass for the same amount of money?

OSHA is in charge of enforcing the laws now against horrible working conditions thanks to organized labor. We no longer have Andrew Carnegies and Henry Fricks thanks to them, but their role now is limited to making sure the laziest employee gets paid the same as the most productive. And that shitty teachers are still in the system due to tenure instead of the teacher of the year.

From Huffington Post of all places. If their reporting it, you know it's bad.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/michelle-apperson-teacher_n_1601015.html

[Alaskapopo]

All of your arguments fall flat on their face Pat.
Your socialist ideology is flawed.

I really don't understand why you continue to participate on a board that's predominately libertarian.

Not a socialist despite your attempts to label anyone who disagrees with your extreme fringe views in that light. As for the board this is a firearms discussion board not a political board. Its funny how people who claim to be pro freedom seem to support censorship on the forum.
Pat

[Inkslinger]

This ain't Europe pal. We ain't socialist, yet. Here, you SHOULD have to work for what you want. If you can't get it you work some more or want less. The world needs ditch diggers.

I knew I never shouldn't have joined this conversation. You know, there's a word for people like you...

12 to 16 hours is excessive and can even be dangerious in some jobs. The 40 hour work week is a good thing. If your working 16 hours a day you literally are a slave to your work place. You only have time to work and sleep with a schedule like that, unless it is a 2 on 2 off schedule or something similar. In Europe the work week is even lower and they have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Who said anything about censoring?
Only you.

My "fringe" beliefs seemed to be shared by a great many on this board.

[Alaskapopo]

Prior being promoted into management, my raises at my work were based upon my performance over the last year instead of me and my fellow employees going on strike demanding more money. If you had your own business, would rather reward your good employees and not the ones that just show up to collect a paycheck? Or raise all of their earnings because they went on strike regardless of individual performance?

Organized labor results in less work being accomplished since the worst employee gets paid the same as the most productive as soon as the good employee realizes this. Why should he/she bust their ass for the same amount of money?

OSHA is in charge of enforcing the laws now against horrible working conditions thanks to organized labor. We no longer have Andrew Carnegies and Henry Fricks thanks to them, but their role now is limited to making sure the laziest employee gets paid the same as the most productive. And that shitty teachers are still in the system due to tenure instead of the teacher of the year.

From Huffington Post of all places. If their reporting it, you know it's bad.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/michelle-apperson-teacher_n_1601015.html

Without organized labor things would go back to the way they were in the Carnegie Fricks days. At good buisness that value employees and reward productivity you seldom even hear about strikes. I have worked in both union and non union shops and have found union shops to have a more professional officer overall because they pay better. You get what you pay for.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

This ain't Europe pal. We ain't socialist, yet. Here, you SHOULD have to work for what you want. If you can't get it you work some more or want less. The world needs ditch diggers.

I knew I never shouldn't have joined this conversation. You know, there's a word for people like you...

I am not your pal and I am not socialist and ain't aint a word. The world does need ditch diggers and they should be paid a fair wage that they can actually feed themselves on.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Without organized labor things would go back to the way they were in the Carnegie Fricks days. At good buisness that value employees and reward productivity you seldom even hear about strikes. I have worked in both union and non union shops and have found union shops to have a more professional officer overall because they pay better. You get what you pay for.
Pat

No, things would not go back.
That is ridiculous.
What have you got to back up that claim?

[kcara]

No it has not. Before this moment it was a once way converstaion with management saying we will pay this. Now the workers are fighting back. We will see what happens. I support the workers on this issue.
Pat

Most fast food stores are franchises. They are owned by small business owners. These owners have seen their food costs, insurance, and health care costs rocket due to willful Democratic fiscal mismanagement at the government level.

The profit margins are not high in these stores. You forget that if you double the wages, then the franchisee will likely go out of business. They may have to raise prices significantly. This is economics 101. This is also a free country. I worked at a fast food place long ago. I went to college, got two degrees, worked three jobs, and now own my own business and work for a large company managing over 100 people.

I never asked for a raise, I did it the way that many people do. I earned it. Fast food workers can improve their condition by improving their skills. This is typical FSA behavior. They need to better their own situation. They are not slaves. They can leave anytime they feel like it. This is the beauty of a free economy. :nono:

[Alaskapopo]

No, things would not go back.
That is ridiculous.
What have you got to back up that claim?

History if you remove the people guarding the door the bad guys will walk through it. Just like if the NRA was not there we would have almost zero gun rights right now.
Pat

[polymorpheous]

Show me the history as it pertains to unions and workers.

[Belloc]

4 year Degree in Criminal Justice with a minor in Political Science from the University of Alaska Fairbanks with a 3.34 GPA. Do you have any education outside of sunday school?
Pat

So a criminal justice degree from a community college. Well, that explains a lot.

But for starters watch your tone. You know the rules here so follow them. Just kidding. :D You're actually at your best when your in your emotional hypersensitive mode

[Caeser25]

Without organized labor things would go back to the way they were in the Carnegie Fricks days.



As I said, they would not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_Safety_and_Health_Administration

[Inkslinger]

Yeah, a fair wage is $15 an hour.

I am not your pal and I am not socialist and ain't aint a word. The world does need ditch diggers and they should be paid a fair wage that they can actually feed themselves on.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Yeah, a fair wage is $15 an hour.

Maybe it is maybe it isn't but I can tell minimum wage is too low and needs to be raised.
Pat

[Belloc]

In Europe the work week is even lower and they have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.
Pat
And most of those citizens have a better work and study ethic by far than the protesters.

And again, how many of these protestors would have served themselves better if they had remained in school, learned a foreign language, studied history, or art, or philosophy, or one of the sciences in their leisure time, worked hard, actually worked hard, at making sure they were always on the Honor Roll, learned and practiced the virtues of temperance, chastity, diligence, and prudence, and believed the pursuit of wisdom worth even a small amount of their time?

[Belloc]

Who said anything about censoring?
Only you.

My "fringe" beliefs seemed to be shared by a great many on this board.

Let's not forget his profound contempt for personal freedom.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1649215

[Alaskapopo]

And most of those citizens have a better work and study ethic by far than the protesters.

And again, how many of these protestors would have served themselves better if they had remained in school, learned a foreign language, studied history, or art, or philosophy, or one of the sciences in their leisure time, worked hard, actually worked hard, at making sure they were always on the Honor Roll, learned and practiced the virtues of temperance, chastity, diligence, and prudence, and believed the pursuit of wisdom worth even a small amount of their time?

Elietism at its best. Note everyone is a good student. Not eveyrone is an academic. Just because someone is not capable of jobs requiring more education does not mean they should not at least be paid a minimum required to sustain life. I am not saying pay them 100K a year. $15 an hour is 30K and still poverty level in most areas.
Pat

[Inkslinger]

Minimum wage is just that, minimum. Usually paid to teenagers and old retired people. If you're neither of those yet working their job, expect to have a shitty life. Or, work a harder manual labor job where you EARN a higher wage. If you can't do that expect to wrap your day up a McDonalds then walk over to Burger King and begin round two.

Maybe it is maybe it isn't but I can tell minimum wage is too low and needs to be raised.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Let's not forget his profound contempt for personal freedom.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1649215

You can not talk about personal freedom when you wish to take away a womans right to chose.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Minimum wage is just that, minimum. Usually paid to teenagers and old retired people. If you're neither of those yet working their job, expect to have a shitty life. Or, work a harder manual labor job where you EARN a higher wage. If you can't do that expect to wrap your day up a McDonalds then walk over to Burger King and begin round two.

I understand that is how you want things to remain. However others believe that people should be treated better than garbage and a fair wage should be paid to even the lowest skilled worker. It should go up from them for more skilled and professional jobs but never lower. We are truly screwed in the head as a society when we are ok with football players making millions while we pay teachers 30K a year. When we are ok with CEO's making litterally millons per year while their workers scrape by working 2 or 3 jobs just to eat at minimum wage.
Pat

[SeriousStudent]

I heard about this on the radio this morning, and just knew I'd find a thread like this when I got home from work tonight.

And it pretty had most of the posts that I predicted, too. I'm psychic that way. :rolleyes:

Everybody chill.

[Crow Hunter]

12 to 16 hours is excessive and can even be dangerious in some jobs. The 40 hour work week is a good thing. If your working 16 hours a day you literally are a slave to your work place. You only have time to work and sleep with a schedule like that, unless it is a 2 on 2 off schedule or something similar. In Europe the work week is even lower and they have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.
Pat

I actually worked for 7 years as a SALARIED employee starting at 6:30am and working until 6:00 to 7:00 at night and I had a company cell phone that often rang at 11:00 pm when third shift changed. On top of that I was on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. During the launch of the D219 and LX Rotor programs I worked from Jan 1st through April 28th without a single day off sometimes from 5:00 am through 9:00 pm, including holidays. I was probably making right at or less than minimum wage during that time and significantly less than $15 per hour worked.

I got a lot of great experience and I learned how not to do things and the type of job I DIDN'T want to have. If I can do that after having spent 5 years in college to get an engineering degree, I don't think it is beyond the Pale to ask someone who didn't put any effort outside of high school and who is legally entitled to overtime to put in a similar effort to advance themselves. Do you?

As an engineer in a manufacturing environment, I know that almost any physical task can be automated if you throw enough money at it. Workers that bring no skills to the table other than material handling and following simple instructions are in danger of being replaced by a $100,000 or less 6 axis robot that never gets sick, never needs vacation, never needs medical insurance, etc. You could cut out 1/2 your labor in a McDonalds just by replacing the insolent, barely intelligible "friendly face" at the cashier with a self service kiosk. Just look at modern grocery stores.

I personally don't use them because I want people to have jobs. But pushed far enough, owners of capital will automate these jobs away. And if the cashiers at my grocery store acted like some of the people that work at a McDonalds, I might start using the automated kiosk.

The real way to make improvements is by grass roots activism. Make it "trendy" to shop at stores that pay their associates a "living wage" appropriate to the area. Think "Buy American". Socially responsible purchasing can be effective. Look at Starbucks or Costco. But it needs to be driven from the bottom up by customers, not by government laws or unions.

The first step in this is to get the workers to "make the juice worth the squeeze" for the customers by providing real high quality products and services.

If the demand is there, the "greedy corporations" will follow the money and start providing it.

Why don't we work on that? Rather than trying to unionize and put more money in the coffers of those that despise the free market? (Who also, by and large, hate gun rights and personal freedoms)

[Inkslinger]

It's hard to not get sucked into Pats vortex of stupidity.

[Renegade]

Everyone deserve at least a living wage.

Absolutely not. Not all jobs are designed to provide enough to raise a family.

I worked for Six Flags for $2.85/hr. It was a summer job for a student. It was not designed to provide for a family. Its primary purpose was to give me a work ethic, learn how do a job, work and get along with others, honor a commitment, succeed, get promoted to a better job. All skills that would come in handy later in life. Looking back, they could have paid me half that for what I learned on the job.

[Renegade]

Organized labor, strikes, slow does etc are all a part of the free market.
Pat

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a "free market" in the United States. If there was, we would not have a minimum wage, Obama Care, etc.

[Alaskapopo]

I actually worked for 7 years as a SALARIED employee starting at 6:30am and working until 6:00 to 7:00 at night and I had a company cell phone that often rang at 11:00 pm when third shift changed. On top of that I was on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. During the launch of the D219 and LX Rotor programs I worked from Jan 1st through April 28th without a single day off sometimes from 5:00 am through 9:00 pm, including holidays. I was probably making right at or less than minimum wage during that time and significantly less than $15 per hour worked.

I got a lot of great experience and I learned how not to do things and the type of job I DIDN'T want to have. If I can do that after having spent 5 years in college to get an engineering degree, I don't think it is beyond the Pale to ask someone who didn't put any effort outside of high school and who is legally entitled to overtime to put in a similar effort to advance themselves. Do you?

As an engineer in a manufacturing environment, I know that almost any physical task can be automated if you throw enough money at it. Workers that bring no skills to the table other than material handling and following simple instructions are in danger of being replaced by a $100,000 or less 6 axis robot that never gets sick, never needs vacation, never needs medical insurance, etc. You could cut out 1/2 your labor in a McDonalds just by replacing the insolent, barely intelligible "friendly face" at the cashier with a self service kiosk. Just look at modern grocery stores.

I personally don't use them because I want people to have jobs. But pushed far enough, owners of capital will automate these jobs away. And if the cashiers at my grocery store acted like some of the people that work at a McDonalds, I might start using the automated kiosk.

The real way to make improvements is by grass roots activism. Make it "trendy" to shop at stores that pay their associates a "living wage" appropriate to the area. Think "Buy American". Socially responsible purchasing can be effective. Look at Starbucks or Costco. But it needs to be driven from the bottom up by customers, not by government laws or unions.

The first step in this is to get the workers to "make the juice worth the squeeze" for the customers by providing real high quality products and services.

If the demand is there, the "greedy corporations" will follow the money and start providing it.

Why don't we work on that? Rather than trying to unionize and put more money in the coffers of those that despise the free market? (Who also, by and large, hate gun rights and personal freedoms)

Actually most blue collar working americans in unions are pro gun and pro personal freedom. And unions put more money in workers pockets and less in the CEO's bonus and I am fine with that. Also if technology improves and replaces these workers that is fine life moves on. When cars came out people who made wagons went out of buisness just the way it is. But if you do hire and employ people you should pay a living wage. If putting in a robot is cheaper fine. But there is no reason to pay starvation level wages to your fellow americans. I will leave this thread with that. Most of us will have to agree to disagree.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

It's hard to not get sucked into Pats vortex of stupidity.

Didn't the moderator get on here and tell us to cool it and you just threw out a personal insult. Real classy.
Pat

[Belloc]

You can not talk about personal freedom when you wish to take away a womans right to chose.
Pat

I rather think that I am more qualified to talk about freedom than anyone who thinks it is a good idea for American freedom and liberty to march in lockstep with Obama, Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer, Cuomo, and Bloomberg in supporting one of the cornerstones of their liberal agenda which actually denies the right to life to unborn innocent children.

Among the industrialised nations of the world, it was the Nazis and Communists who were among the first to remove their laws protecting the life of the unborn.

[rushca01]

Absolutely not. Not all jobs are designed to provide enough to raise a family.

I worked for Six Flags for $2.85/hr. It was a summer job for a student. It was not designed to provide for a family. Its primary purpose was to give me a work ethic, learn how do a job, work and get along with others, honor a commitment, succeed, get promoted to a better job. All skills that would come in handy later in life. Looking back, they could have paid me half that for what I learned on the job.

Pretty much this.

[Crow Hunter]

Actually most blue collar working americans in unions are pro gun and pro personal freedom. And unions put more money in workers pockets and less in the CEO's bonus and I am fine with that. Also if technology improves and replaces these workers that is fine life moves on. When cars came out people who made wagons went out of buisness just the way it is. But if you do hire and employ people you should pay a living wage. If putting in a robot is cheaper fine. But there is no reason to pay starvation level wages to your fellow americans. I will leave this thread with that. Most of us will have to agree to disagree.
Pat

The individuals might be, (all my family is Union and they are) but the entities themselves seem to be beholden to those who do not believe in gun rights.

Even though I am an engineer, I don't want low skilled people to be replaced by automation.

I constantly try to make the people at the plant I work with now show the care and quality that human craftsmanship can give a product that can't be replaced by a robot. To make our products such a premier product that people will pay extra for it to get it so the company owners, who put up the capital and who have the most to use can get a reasonable return on their investment while still providing a decent wage. Most of the time it just falls on deaf ears because they know they can just quit and go to another low skilled job because they don't really have anything "invested" in their job.

I don't won't low skilled jobs to go the way of the wagon wheel makers but if they continue to "act their wage" instead of providing quantifiable value added "human capital", it may well happen.

But artificial "price controls" via government mandated wage floors will just make things worse IMHO.

[Belloc]

Elietism at its best. Note everyone is a good student. Not eveyrone is an academic. Just because someone is not capable of jobs requiring more education does not mean they should not at least be paid a minimum required to sustain life. I am not saying pay them 100K a year. $15 an hour is 30K and still poverty level in most areas.
Pat

If someone is not a good student, it is because they have wilfully chosen not to be a good student. No one forces anyone not to study, not to apply themselves.
And how exactly is stating the obvious fact that practicing the cardinal virtues improves one's lot in life, "Elietism" [sic]?

[jmoney]

Maybe its high time we added it. Its hard to have a good life, enjoy liberty and pursue happiness when you can't make a living wage. Many socialist/communist revolutions have been started because of the poor fighting back against the abuses of the rich. Its time that the rich start policing themselves and not treating their workers like garbage.
Pat

Well thats what it appears to be, there is always someone who motivates them who starts the class warfare and that person is concerned with one thing, power, and don't be fooled. The revolting persons are nothing more than pawns.


All right for starters watch your tone. You know the rules here so follow them. Secondly the time I talked about suing was not for a big payout for myself but rather to make it painful for an employer who willfully disregarded labor law. Yea that is right people who break the law should be accountable.
Pat

you are absolutely right, sadly I think a lot of people misconstrue those victims as wanting a payday due to reckless litigation that we see on the news...even though that really is more the exception than the norm


Workers can't hold anyone hostage. The employer holds the purse strings and hence most of the power. Only when workers stand united can they effectively negotiate. Also what regime are you talking about? This is a group of workers paid very low wages who are fed up with it and trying to fight back. I support them. Its not a regime.
Pat

they can be fed up with it all they want, but how about they take some personal responsibility then blame the person who pays minimum wage for a job that is worth minimum wage


Everyone deserve at least a living wage. A living wage should be enough to feed a man and put him up in a small apartment. You can't do that in most places on a minimum wage job. I am not taking about having a car and lots of toys. Just a living wage. People should not have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. You talk about these workers like they are sub human. Is that your view?
Pat

sure some people deserve it, but at some point you have to stop blaming other people for your situation and do something to change it



No everyone doesn't deserve a living wage.
The need to EARN a living wage.
If they can't do this, then it is THEIR responsibility to change that by bettering themselves and making themselves more valuable to the workforce.

Minimum wage is not meant to sustain a family.

Try again.

exactly, it is just that, minimum wage


No you try again. They are working hard and not being paid a fair wage because of greedy corporations who would rather pay their CEO a 10 million dollar bonus vs raising their line workers wage a couple of bucks an hour.
Pat

no...they are not working hard. I'm sorry they can cry all about working their 40 hour workweek flipping burgers. Some of us put in over 100 hours of work a week...and many times get nothing more than the minimum wage, if paid at all during the start of our careers. WE also paid attention in school and worked ourselves to death to get where we are...just so we could avoid working at burger king


12 to 16 hours is excessive and can even be dangerious in some jobs. The 40 hour work week is a good thing. If your working 16 hours a day you literally are a slave to your work place. You only have time to work and sleep with a schedule like that, unless it is a 2 on 2 off schedule or something similar. In Europe the work week is even lower and they have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.
Pat

it is a good thing in some professions, in others it seriously limits driven people from contributing what they could. Often, because someone else is unable to work at the same level of efficiency or competency they are. (i am not including extremely dangerous jobs where 100% of your attention is need at every moment)


4 year Degree in Criminal Justice with a minor in Political Science from the University of Alaska Fairbanks with a 3.34 GPA. Do you have any education outside of sunday school?
Pat

Backing up your statements with a posting of your academic credentials is probably the least persuasive argument one can make...I've literally had someone who "claimed" to be a phd candidate in political science accuse Bush of genocide, yet he really didn't even understand the definition of genocide...or really much of anything. In fact he was one of the most arrogant, smug, stupid people I've encountered in my life. Yet, it seems to be an increasing norm.


If someone is not a good student, it is because they have wilfully chosen not to be a good student. No one forces anyone not to study, not to apply themselves.
And how exactly is stating the obvious fact that practicing the cardinal virtues improves one's lot in life, "Elietism" [sic]?

EXACTLY

Sadly that bit of wisdom is lost on the general population

[Alaskapopo]

Well thats what it appears to be, there is always someone who motivates them who starts the class warfare and that person is concerned with one thing, power, and don't be fooled. The revolting persons are nothing more than pawns.



you are absolutely right, sadly I think a lot of people misconstrue those victims as wanting a payday due to reckless litigation that we see on the news...even though that really is more the exception than the norm



they can be fed up with it all they want, but how about they take some personal responsibility then blame the person who pays minimum wage for a job that is worth minimum wage



sure some people deserve it, but at some point you have to stop blaming other people for your situation and do something to change it




exactly, it is just that, minimum wage



no...they are not working hard. I'm sorry they can cry all about working their 40 hour workweek flipping burgers. Some of us put in over 100 hours of work a week...and many times get nothing more than the minimum wage, if paid at all during the start of our careers. WE also paid attention in school and worked ourselves to death to get where we are...just so we could avoid working at burger king



it is a good thing in some professions, in others it seriously limits driven people from contributing what they could. Often, because someone else is unable to work at the same level of efficiency or competency they are. (i am not including extremely dangerous jobs where 100% of your attention is need at every moment)



Backing up your statements with a posting of your academic credentials is probably the least persuasive argument one can make...I've literally had someone who "claimed" to be a phd candidate in political science accuse Bush of genocide, yet he really didn't even understand the definition of genocide...or really much of anything. In fact he was one of the most arrogant, smug, stupid people I've encountered in my life. Yet, it seems to be an increasing norm.



EXACTLY

Sadly that bit of wisdom is lost on the general population

To clarify I was not backing up my statements with my degree. You don't need a degree to have an informed opinion. I was countering Belloc's accusation that I had no education.
Pat

[jmoney]

ah well yes, thats silly as well:nono:

[J-Dub]

Shit that's pretty close to what I make....with a degree.....


Gotta love the worthless trash that doesn't want to work for anything and wants everything handed to them immediately.

**** fast food anyway. Its gmo/trans fat/aspartame/ garbage.


But what the hell, start paying them 30.00 an hour....because we're all bleeding heart morons....

[mike240]

Workers can't hold anyone hostage. The employer holds the purse strings and hence most of the power. Only when workers stand united can they effectively negotiate. Also what regime are you talking about? This is a group of workers paid very low wages who are fed up with it and trying to fight back. I support them. Its not a regime.
Pat

Read the final line. The current government is the regime. I don't have to explain what they are doing. Worker do not get enslaved in our system. They are free to start their businesses.

Some parents should have sacrificed and got involved their kids life so they were more capable than flipping burgers.

[Alaskapopo]

Read the final line. The current government is the regime. I don't have to explain what they are doing. Worker do not get enslaved in our system. They are free to start their businesses.

Some parents should have sacrificed and got involved their kids life so they were more capable than flipping burgers.

The government is not involved in this dispute. Its between the workers and their employers. Not everything is a conspiracy with the Obama administration at the heart of it. Also business owners are not the only ones who should have rights. Some people should be business owners some people are better set up to work for those business owners. That being said does not mean the business owners should pay starvation level wages. Nor should we tolerate that as a society.
Pat

[mike240]

No you try again. They are working hard and not being paid a fair wage because of greedy corporations who would rather pay their CEO a 10 million dollar bonus vs raising their line workers wage a couple of bucks an hour.
Pat

Their private company, their profits...

Don't like the job, move on.

[Belloc]

To clarify I was not backing up my statements with my degree. You don't need a degree to have an informed opinion. I was countering Belloc's accusation that I had no education.
Pat

Actually, it was a question and not an accusation, but you and honest debate have never been on speaking terms. And while it is true that one need not have a degree to have in informed opinion, we also have again plainly seen that a degree also far too often fails utterly to bestow a person with an informed opinion. But then small town community college degrees sadly aren't what they used to be.

[jmoney]

why should a company be compelled to pay more for a job than the job itself entitles one to?

[Alaskapopo]

Their private company, their profits...

Don't like the job, move on.

The employees can organize refuse to work there for that low of a wage so the company won't be able to hire anyone in that area if they don't pay a better wage. If they don't like it they can move to a new area or go under. Greed is a cancer.
Pat

[Eurodriver]

The employees can organize refuse to work there for that low of a wage so the company won't be able to hire anyone in that area if they don't pay a better wage. If they don't like it they can move to a new area or go under. Greed is a cancer.
Pat

We agree, Pat.

I hope all the workers go under because they are greedy and unmotivated to advance in the workforce.

You know who isn't losing sleep right now? McDonalds corporate management.

[Renegade]

People will pay the slightly higer prices if everyone else is also paying their workers a fair wage and increasing their prices slightly as well. Or heaven forbid the management and CEO's could absorb the difference in their huge ass bonus.


People will pay the slightly higer prices if everyone else is also paying their workers a fair wage and increasing their prices slightly as well. Or heaven forbid the management and CEO's could absorb the difference in their huge ass bonus.


No you try again. They are working hard and not being paid a fair wage because of greedy corporations who would rather pay their CEO a 10 million dollar bonus vs raising their line workers wage a couple of bucks an hour.


I see a common theme here and it shows a misunderstanding of how the fast-food industry works.

99% of the fast-food restaurants are not owned by greedy corporations paying their CEOs 10 million bucks. You are way off base in that belief.

They are owned by your neighbor, a fellow middle class person trying to survive just like you. My BIL owns three fast-food restaurants in Texas and he barely makes 6 figures in a good year. It is a family [him, wife, sons] owned business, not a greedy corporation. He is heavily leveraged in debt and could lose it all with a simpler downturn in the economy. This is an extremely common business model.

Wages are the single biggest controllable cost he faces, and the ability to control it via salary and scheduling of how many workers are on duty at any given time is the difference between profitability and failure.

FWIW, "McDonalds" to cite a simple example, makes most of its money in real estate, buying and then renting property to the franchisees. It also makes money from franchisee fees. An increase in Min Wage really has no direct effect to them or the CEO.

[Alaskapopo]

We agree, Pat.

I hope all the workers go under because they are greedy and unmotivated to advance in the workforce.

You know who isn't losing sleep right now? McDonalds corporate management.

I would say they are highly motivated and brave to boot to go in public and risk their jobs trying to get better pay and working conditions. They are hero's to others in their profession. McDonalds corporate management is not losing sleep because they care more about money than peoples lives. A sad fact with most big business today.
pat

[Alaskapopo]

Most fast-food


I see a common theme here and it shows a misunderstanding of how the fast-food industry works.

99% of the fast-food restaurants are not owned by greedy corporations paying their CEOs 10 million bucks. You are way off base in that belief.

They are owned by your neighbor, a fellow middle class person trying to survive just like you. My BIL owns three fast-food restaurants in Texas and he barely makes 6 figures in a good year. It is a family [him, wife, sons] owned business, not a greedy corporation. He is heavily leveraged in debt and could lose it all with a simpler downturn in the economy. This is an extremely common business model.

Wages are the single biggest controllable cost he faces, and the ability to control it via salary and scheduling of how many workers are on duty at any given time is the difference between profitability and failure.

FWIW, "McDonalds" to cite a simple example, makes most of its money in real estate, buying and then renting property to the franchisees. It also makes money from franchisee fees. An increase in Min Wage really has no direct effect to them or the CEO.

I understand it is a franchise but the local owners at least the ones I know are very very well off and not what I would consider middle class. Generally 250K plus a year.
Pat

[mike240]

The employees can organize refuse to work there for that low of a wage so the company won't be able to hire anyone in that area if they don't pay a better wage. If they don't like it they can move to a new area or go under. Greed is a cancer.
Pat

Yes. Like I said free market. I said that earlier but you deny governments interference. When it is more profitable to not work and have the same luxury items as those that do, there is a problem...

Those able to work that chose not to do so should never get taxpayer money. Report for your box of food and go to your cube.

Entitlements are like Obamacare. Compulsive purchasing of a product I don't want and get no benefit from.

Libs are charitable with others money.

Yes. These issues are connected. These are starter jobs. If your motivation dies thn you deserve to live with it.

[Eurodriver]

McDonalds corporate management is not losing sleep because they care more about money than peoples lives. A sad fact with most big business today.
pat

They care about money. You care about stats. Why is working to make more money evil and working to increase your personal stats not?

[Renegade]

I understand it is a franchise but the local owners at least the ones I know are very very well off and not what I would consider middle class. Generally 250K plus a year.
Pat

250K is still 40X from 10 mill.

I am sure many franchise owners do well, many struggle. There is no way they should be compared the CEOs of the Parent Company.

[jmoney]

still yet to have anyone answer my most basic question

[Alaskapopo]

250K is still 40X from 10 mill.

I am sure many franchise owners do well, many struggle. There is no way they should be compared the CEOs of the Parent Company.

That is a fair point.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

They care about money. You care about stats. Why is working to make more money evil and working to increase your personal stats not?

You lost me on the stat comment. Not sure I ever said I care about stats. Which stats are you referring to? Also I am all for making more money but I am also for dealing honestly with my fellow man and that means not screwing over employees so I can make more money. Its funny how your all for people wanting to make more money so long as they are not government workers like cops.
Pat

[khc3]

I understand it is a franchise but the local owners at least the ones I know are very very well off and not what I would consider middle class. Generally 250K plus a year.
Pat

Was reading an article about Subway's problems currently, and it noted that franchises average $400K per annum in revenue and 8-10% margins.

[khc3]

why should a company be compelled to pay more for a job than the job itself entitles one to?

Because some people here subscribe to the labor theory of value, like Karl Marx.

[No.6]

Gentlemen, the answer is here:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/york-after-victory-liberals-want-income-redistribution/article/2514401#.UMKiD3evFi-

Pulled from the link above...

"The third goal, the "escalator," is perhaps the most radical. To address continuing income inequality, liberal thinkers propose sweeping redistributions plans. One is to increase the earned income tax credit so that it becomes a government wage subsidy for everyone who makes up to $80,000 a year.

"Another approach," writes Konczal, "would create an unconditional basic income that rises with GDP growth. The proposal gives every legal resident a cash stipend, usually targeted around the poverty level. This income is universal, so everyone gets it regardless of their income or work status, and it is unconditional."

So there you go; guaranteed "income" of $80k a year. Any bets the recipients will be back demanding $100k after a couple of years?

[_Stormin_]

That being said does not mean the business owners should pay starvation level wages. Nor should we tolerate that as a society.
Pat

I need to clear something up here…

What is stopping these workers from leaving the job with the wage they find unfair? They sign no contracts, no noncompete agreements, and if their skills are "worth" $15 an hour they should be able to find someone willing to pay them that amount. In spite of all of the rhetoric, this is how the labor market works.

I just hired a new employee. They came from an entry level job making not much more than minimum wage. They learned a skill set that included hard work, punctuality, and responsibility in this entry level job. They had been there for a year and a half, showing dedication and commitment to their work. So I brought them on part time to let them learn what we do, acquire more skills, and evolve in this role. I was not going to bring them on making what I pay my top full time people (a very significant wage) but they can earn it… For this position I had over twenty applicants, many of whom were "close" to being as good as this candidate. The top 5 had all worked entry level customer service jobs for at least one year. I recommended that colleagues hire two others for their open positions. If I have another opening I will call the other two back and inquire if they are still in the market for a new job. I have a feeling they won't be.

You aren't an employer, you have no real knowledge of payroll or a P&L, and your arguments are nothing but emotional responses to a logical problem. People deserve NOTHING. Not one damn thing. They earn things based upon work.

For all your loathing of corporate management you have no concept how hard I work, how many hours I put in, and the pressure that comes along with it. I shed not one tear about how "little" I pay someone because they can easily leave if they don't like it. I feel no guilt about my bonus because I know that as of TODAY I have worked well north of 50 hours and I will be in tomorrow and Saturday as well. None of my people put in my hours and I would not dream of asking them to do so.

[ABNAK]

I don't have the source handy but I read if Walmart raised its employees wages to $12 an hour from minimum wage it would only cost the customer about 50 cents more a purchase. Nothing to cry over here. People do deserve a living wage. Rather that is $15 an hour or $10 is going to depend on the region. I am glad the workers are figthing back against the fat cats. The more you see the divide grow between rich and poor the more protests you will see like this. We are on the verge of class warefare. Its high time big corporations start treating their people like people and paying a fair wage. If some CEO's bonus needs to be cut a few millon so the workers can make a living so be it.
Pat

Sooooo.......if they get a $7 an hour raise do I get one too? I mean, fair is fair, right? Then the entire working population gets a $7 an hour raise, and guess what? Everything suddenly costs more and then the "living wage" becomes $22 an hour (or whatever). You don't see the folly?

Also, I'll guaran-damn-tee you that 90% of them (especially the "I'm trying to feed a family on this wage" crowd) also has an EBT card in their purse or wallet, courtesy of you and me. So their whining is a bit untrue in it's claims.

[Alaskapopo]

Gentlemen, the answer is here:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/york-after-victory-liberals-want-income-redistribution/article/2514401#.UMKiD3evFi-

Pulled from the link above...

"The third goal, the "escalator," is perhaps the most radical. To address continuing income inequality, liberal thinkers propose sweeping redistributions plans. One is to increase the earned income tax credit so that it becomes a government wage subsidy for everyone who makes up to $80,000 a year.

"Another approach," writes Konczal, "would create an unconditional basic income that rises with GDP growth. The proposal gives every legal resident a cash stipend, usually targeted around the poverty level. This income is universal, so everyone gets it regardless of their income or work status, and it is unconditional."

So there you go; guaranteed "income" of $80k a year. Any bets the recipients will be back demanding $100k after a couple of years?

I don't agree with giving people free money. Seen that ruin people. But I think that companies need to evaluate how they pay their employees. It used to be in the 1920's that the CEO made 20 times what the lowest paid employee made. Now they make over 200 times what their lowest paid employees make. That shows that the profits from the company are not balanced in how they get paid out. While some on here think its crazy for a public servant to make 200k I find it more appalling that people are perfectly fine with CEO's making millions and in some cases billions of dollars while employing people in sweat shops around the world. Like the saying goes something stinks.

[Alaskapopo]

Sooooo.......if they get a $7 an hour raise do I get one too? I mean, fair is fair, right? Then the entire working population gets a $7 an hour raise, and guess what? Everything suddenly costs more and then the "living wage" becomes $22 an hour (or whatever). You don't see the folly?

Also, I'll guaran-damn-tee you that 90% of them (especially the "I'm trying to feed a family on this wage" crowd) also has an EBT card in their purse or wallet, courtesy of you and me. So their whining is a bit untrue in it's claims.

We are talking about the working poor those that have pride and don't want to have to get a hand out from the government. Like I said in an earlier post companies need to re evaluate how they pay their people. If they paid their employees better they could grow the middle class which buys stuff which in the long run would help other business like their own every body wins. But we have a few people with nearly all the wealth while the rest of us make do with what is left over.
Pat

[ABNAK]

Maybe its high time we added it. Its hard to have a good life, enjoy liberty and pursue happiness when you can't make a living wage. Many socialist/communist revolutions have been started because of the poor fighting back against the abuses of the rich. Its time that the rich start policing themselves and not treating their workers like garbage.
Pat

Wow, Karl Marx is a cop in Alaska! Whoda thunk it.......

[_Stormin_]

Was reading an article about Subway's problems currently, and it noted that franchises average $400K per annum in revenue and 8-10% margins.

So after all of their work, and the risk of their personal financial well being (franchise goes under, they file for bankruptcy), they make ON AVERAGE $32,000 a year. Far from the exorbitant profits that some apparently believe they're bringing in. Oh yeah, IF they work ONLY 40 hours a week (they work more, I promise) they're bringing in about $15 an hour.

[ABNAK]

No, people do not deserve a "living wage" for doing the most menial work. Not every job should be a "career". There should be entry level, starting out jobs that young people, part-timers, and retired people can do that are supplements or getting experience.

If you want a living wage then get the experience and training or education and work ethic to deserve a living wage. I worked plenty of entry level jobs and it astounds me someone thinks they ought to be able to live on that. You are basically saying that someone no more qualified than to flip burgers ought to be able to pay all their bills. Well they can if they live at home, live in a group home (like college kids), or live out of their car. That should be plenty of incentive to learn a more marketable skill.

If burger flippers "deserve" $15/hr than all more qualified jobs will have to pay hire and all labor costs goes up as well as cost of all goods. If you think $15/hr is good for entry level job and there are no economic repercussions forcing a higher minimum wage then why not $50/hr? Why not $100/hr?

It is shocking that someone can be blinded by labor union sound bites so much that they have no concept of economics, cause and effect, and personal responsibility for advancement.



Amen! Great post!

[_Stormin_]

If they paid their employees better they could grow the middle class which buys stuff which in the long run would help other business like their own every body wins.

No, we would have more dollars chasing the same resources, which would drive the price for everyone up more and more. You have little understanding of how inflation works. You temper inflation by having MORE OUTPUT per dollar earned. More goods/services for those dollars to chase, keeping prices rising slower than average incomes. Simply giving more people money does not "fix" the poor's problem in the long run because prices will only jump in kind and the lowest tier of income earners are the ones most sensitive to price fluctuations. You have to have a corresponding jump in output to offset the increase in available dollars. It's not something that you really can argue. It's how markets work without price fixing.

[No.6]

I don't agree with giving people free money. Seen that ruin people. But I think that companies need to evaluate how they pay their employees. It used to be in the 1920's that the CEO made 20 times what the lowest paid employee made. Now they make over 200 times what their lowest paid employees make. That shows that the profits from the company are not balanced in how they get paid out. While some on here think its crazy for a public servant to make 200k I find it more appalling that people are perfectly fine with CEO's making millions and in some cases billions of dollars while employing people in sweat shops around the world. Like the saying goes something stinks.


Based on the fact that the "fat cats" make most of the money, then why don't you run for office (you have a polisci minor right?) and propose this:

The Income Equalization Act of 2016
Phase I
All persons over the age of 18, residing within the borders of the United States of America shall receive a weekly check for the amount of $2500 regardless of their position in any business, civil service, or if unemployed. Not to exceed $130,000 per person, annually. Elected members of Congress, POTUS and SCOTUS are exempt from this law and have no limit on income.

Just think, we will finally be free from the tyranny of class warfare since everyone will truly be equal in their potential income. CEO's, mayors, talking heads, teachers, fire fighters, small business owners, and those who fail to launch from the nest will all be equally productive. Now Jr. won't feel the shame (such that it is) of mooching off dear ole Mom and Dad. He'll be a contributing member of the family as he sits in front of his PS3 all day. Ah, but how do we finance this you ask? From the evil profits of big (and small) businesses of course.

[Alaskapopo]

I need to clear something up here…

What is stopping these workers from leaving the job with the wage they find unfair? They sign no contracts, no noncompete agreements, and if their skills are "worth" $15 an hour they should be able to find someone willing to pay them that amount. In spite of all of the rhetoric, this is how the labor market works.

I just hired a new employee. They came from an entry level job making not much more than minimum wage. They learned a skill set that included hard work, punctuality, and responsibility in this entry level job. They had been there for a year and a half, showing dedication and commitment to their work. So I brought them on part time to let them learn what we do, acquire more skills, and evolve in this role. I was not going to bring them on making what I pay my top full time people (a very significant wage) but they can earn it… For this position I had over twenty applicants, many of whom were "close" to being as good as this candidate. The top 5 had all worked entry level customer service jobs for at least one year. I recommended that colleagues hire two others for their open positions. If I have another opening I will call the other two back and inquire if they are still in the market for a new job. I have a feeling they won't be.

You aren't an employer, you have no real knowledge of payroll or a P&L, and your arguments are nothing but emotional responses to a logical problem. People deserve NOTHING. Not one damn thing. They earn things based upon work.

For all your loathing of corporate management you have no concept how hard I work, how many hours I put in, and the pressure that comes along with it. I shed not one tear about how "little" I pay someone because they can easily leave if they don't like it. I feel no guilt about my bonus because I know that as of TODAY I have worked well north of 50 hours and I will be in tomorrow and Saturday as well. None of my people put in my hours and I would not dream of asking them to do so.

When companies collude on wages it is hard to just leave and find a better paying job. What is often needed for employees to get a fair wage is to organize and stand as one unit and strike if they need to.
Left to its own without government regulation the free market always leads to monopolies and near starvation level wages for those who work for them at the lower levels. The one thing people should trust less than big government is big corporations.
Pat

[_Stormin_]

WOW… I thought that people who actually believed that stuff were only running for Congress.

[Alaskapopo]

Based on the fact that the "fat cats" make most of the money, then why don't you run for office (you have a polisci minor right?) and propose this:

The Income Equalization Act of 2016
Phase I
All persons over the age of 18, residing within the borders of the United States of America shall receive a weekly check for the amount of $2500 regardless of their position in any business, civil service, or if unemployed. Not to exceed $130,000 per person, annually. Elected members of Congress, POTUS and SCOTUS are exempt from this law and have no limit on income.

Just think, we will finally be free from the tyranny of class warfare since everyone will truly be equal in their potential income. CEO's, mayors, talking heads, teachers, fire fighters, small business owners, and those who fail to launch from the nest will all be equally productive. Now Jr. won't feel the shame (such that it is) of mooching off dear ole Mom and Dad. He'll be a contributing member of the family as he sits in front of his PS3 all day. Ah, but how do we finance this you ask? From the evil profits of big (and small) businesses of course.

How about we just make sure the minimum wage is kept at a living wage standard and is set to keep up with inflation.
Pat

[No.6]

...
Simply giving more people money does not "fix" the poor's problem in the long run ....

Hasn't stopped politicians from making this the answer.

[Alaskapopo]

No, we would have more dollars chasing the same resources, which would drive the price for everyone up more and more. You have little understanding of how inflation works. You temper inflation by having MORE OUTPUT per dollar earned. More goods/services for those dollars to chase, keeping prices rising slower than average incomes. Simply giving more people money does not "fix" the poor's problem in the long run because prices will only jump in kind and the lowest tier of income earners are the ones most sensitive to price fluctuations. You have to have a corresponding jump in output to offset the increase in available dollars. It's not something that you really can argue. It's how markets work without price fixing.

I fully understand your argument. However while the cost of living seems to be going up wages are not. Employers do what they can to pay as little as possible and that is understandable because they want to be profitable as possible. Employees however have a right to organize and try to negotiate for as much as possible and that is what these people are doing.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

WOW… I thought that people who actually believed that stuff were only running for Congress.

What next are you going to tell us if we can't afford bread to eat cake. :rolleyes:
It would be nice if people at the top had an idea of what those on the bottom are living like.
Pat

[No.6]

When companies collude on wages it is hard to just leave and find a better paying job. What is often needed for employees to get a fair wage is to organize and stand as one unit and strike if they need to.
Left to its own without government regulation the free market always leads to monopolies and near starvation level wages for those who work for them at the lower levels. The one thing people should trust less than big government is big corporations.
Pat


That's funny! I'm a business owner and no one has ever "colluded" with me to set wages. Damn, I fell left out now.
Yes, strike. That's the best answer. Worked well for the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco and Grain Millers International Union when they called a strike against Hostess Bakery. Really brought management to it's knees.

[Alaskapopo]

That's funny! I'm a business owner and no one has ever "colluded" with me to set wages. Damn, I fell left out now.
Yes, strike. That's the best answer. Worked well for the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco and Grain Millers International Union when they called a strike against Hostess Bakery. Really brought management to it's knees.

I am sure you have never killed anyone either so does that mean that no other business owners have. Just because you have been a good person does not mean all business owners are.
Forced them into bankruptcy. Also any company that tells its employees to accept a 40% pay cut while at the same time giving their CEO a 150% pay raise can't be taken seriously.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Wow, Karl Marx is a cop in Alaska! Whoda thunk it.......

Really a little childish don't you think. One thing people need to learn here is tolerance. People should be able to have discussions like this without name calling, without rude retorts etc. These discussions can be educational and even fun but people need to show each other some basic respect even if they hate the other posters position.

Pat

[No.6]

I am sure you have never killed anyone either so does that mean that no other business owners have. Just because you have been a good person does not mean all business owners are.

Thanks. I needed the laugh.



Forced them into bankruptcy. Also any company that tells its employees to accept a 40% pay cut while at the same time giving their CEO a 150% pay raise can't be taken seriously.
Pat

How much would it have been worth to the people who invested their money in Hostess to have someone turn the company around and make it profitable? Running a business, I don't care if it's just a single individual or one with 10,000 employees is not an easy job. To make a company profitable is even harder.
In a perfect world, everyone would have everything they ever wanted. Problem is who's perfect world? Joe Stalin's or Joe the Plumber's? Very different worlds.

[_Stormin_]

Of course they have a right to. They also have a right to be told they're insane to think that it's going to get them anything more than less paid hours and potential replacement when the legal avenue presents itself.

The fact of the matter is, you can not set some "living wage" and then expect the market to not respond to it. Prices are where they are due to the fact that dollars chasing goods has set those prices. If you give people more dollars, prices will rise unless output has risen accordingly. It's going to happen. You can't "feel good rule" your way out of it. It's an undeniable fact that has been true since people began trading with one another. The people at the bottom will still be at the bottom and you will only have served to put those in the middle CLOSER TO THE BOTTOM because the prices rise on them too.

You say that you understand my argument, and then fire off an ignorant quip about aristocratic attitudes towards the peasants. To try and keep this pleasant I have deleted my immediate response to your subsophomoric response. I simply want an answer. How do you raise wages arbitrarily without an increase in productivity and avoid the corresponding hike in prices that impacts everyone? You don't understand or have a solution. If you did you wouldn't act as though it's an elitist viewpoint. It's a simple fact. I don't deny that people at the bottom have it tough. It's supposed to be tough. THAT'S THE MOTIVATION TO MOVE OUT OF THE BOTTOM.

In a five year econ case study do you know how many of the "bottom 10%" of earners were STILL in the "bottom 10%" of the study group half a decade later? Less than one in ten. Nine of every ten found a way to work hard and move up. The average incomes shifted higher (people's earning potential increased as their skill-sets grew), and for the most part, everyone was better off. Were there people still at the bottom? Yes, there always will be. Were there people still making the same wage in a half a decade? Yes there were. How many of the "top 10%" were still in the "top 10%" the same period of time later? Less than one in 20…

I don't expect for you to understand all of economics in a night AKcop, but I sure as hell don't expect to be talked down to by an emotional and ignorant person about a topic they appear to have little comprehension of without giving them a solid lecture on the topic. I don't step into a Vickers carbine class and recite how many rounds I "feel" a target should get before moving to the next one. Check "feel good" arguments at the door if you would like to debate the economic reality of low wage jobs.

[theblackknight]

I've worked in fast food and for walmart in the auto shop back in the day. Fast food pays exactly what it deserves. Want to make living wage at it? Move up to store manager. My store manager in mc d's in high school made 4x,xxx a year, had a family and a sick nasty bass boat, deep flake paint and all.

I maybe should have made a little more at Walmart slinging around truck tires all day, but I'm not a whiney bitch. I moved on seeing as I wasn't planning on being at these jobs for very long, and niether should anyone else who wants to have a decent life and little hellions to tear up your Ikea furniture.

I have a conditional offer from one(of the 10 in this county) PD here. The starting wage is 16.34 an hour(34k). How the ferk does flipping burgers equally compare to getting spit on by crack whores? Usually the burger flippers are the ones doing the spitting. . . . :(


sent from mah gun,using my sights

[Alaskapopo]

Of course they have a right to. They also have a right to be told they're insane to think that it's going to get them anything more than less paid hours and potential replacement when the legal avenue presents itself.

The fact of the matter is, you can not set some "living wage" and then expect the market to not respond to it. Prices are where they are due to the fact that dollars chasing goods has set those prices. If you give people more dollars, prices will rise unless output has risen accordingly. It's going to happen. You can't "feel good rule" your way out of it. It's an undeniable fact that has been true since people began trading with one another. The people at the bottom will still be at the bottom and you will only have served to put those in the middle CLOSER TO THE BOTTOM because the prices rise on them too.

You say that you understand my argument, and then fire off an ignorant quip about aristocratic attitudes towards the peasants. To try and keep this pleasant I have deleted my immediate response to your subsophomoric response. I simply want an answer. How do you raise wages arbitrarily without an increase in productivity and avoid the corresponding hike in prices that impacts everyone? You don't understand or have a solution. If you did you wouldn't act as though it's an elitist viewpoint. It's a simple fact. I don't deny that people at the bottom have it tough. It's supposed to be tough. THAT'S THE MOTIVATION TO MOVE OUT OF THE BOTTOM.

In a five year econ case study you you know how many of the "bottom 10%" of earners were STILL in the "bottom 10%" of the study group half a decade later? Less than one in ten. Nine of every ten found a way to work hard and move up. The average incomes shifted higher (people's earning potential increased as their skill-sets grew), and for the most part, everyone was better off. Were there people still at the bottom? Yes, there always will be. Were there people still making the same wage in a half a decade? Yes there were. How many of the "top 10%" were still in the "top 10%" the same period of time later? Less than one in 20…

I don't expect for you to understand all of economics in a night AKcop, but I sure as hell don't expect to be talked down to by an emotional and ignorant person about a topic they appear to have little comprehension of without giving them a solid lecture on the topic. I don't step into a Vickers carbine class and recite how many rounds I "feel" a target should get before moving to the next one. Check "feel good" arguments at the door if you would like to debate the economic reality of low wage jobs.

What I am saying is that big business is artificially keeping wages low. They fight any attempts at unionization they send millions of dollars towards efforts to pass laws making it harder for employees to fight for their rights. Yes its true if you pay people more money and there is more money in the system that prices will go up. But then you raise the wage again. A certain amount of inflation is acceptable as long as it does not go out of control. Right now we don't even have employers keeping up with inflation with their wage increases. On your case study do you have a link would be nice to know the details.

[Alaskapopo]

I've worked in fast food and for walmart in the auto shop back in the day. Fast food pays exactly what it deserves. Want to make living wage at it? Move up to store manager. My store manager in mc d's in high school made 4x,xxx a year, had a family and a sick nasty bass boat, deep flake paint and all.

I maybe should have made a little more at Walmart slinging around truck tires all day, but I'm not a whiney bitch. I moved on seeing as I wasn't planning on being at these jobs for very long, and niether should anyone else who wants to have a decent life and little hellions to tear up your Ikea furniture.

I have a conditional offer from one(of the 10 in this county) PD here. The starting wage is 16.34 an hour(34k). How the ferk does flipping burgers equally compare to getting spit on by crack whores? Usually the burger flippers are the ones doing the spitting. . . . :(


sent from mah gun,using my sights

There are people out there on this forum who think that cops should not be making much more than minimum wage either. I am not saying that fast food workers should make X amount of dollars. I am saying that the minimum wage should actually be a wage that someone could survive off of without having to take a government handout or a 2nd or 3rd job. Right now that is not the case. I also think that these workers should be allowed to strike and see if they can get a better deal from management. Hopefully people will support them and management will at least concede a fair amount. Both side need to be allowed a seat at the negotiation table.
Pat

[theblackknight]

There are people out there on this forum who think that cops should not be making much more than minimum wage either. I am not saying that fast food workers should make X amount of dollars. I am saying that the minimum wage should actually be a wage that someone could survive off of without having to take a government handout or a 2nd or 3rd job. Right now that is not the case.
Pat

Every Econ teacher I've ever talked to was very adamant on the fact that one thing results from each bump in the minimum wage, and that's a spike in unemployment in 'new workers' ie teenagers.

If these workers had valueable skills to offer employers and the job market, then they would go else where. They don't. They literally arnt worth anymore then they are paid. That's how this thing works. It's THEIR job to obtain whatever it is they need to survive as they see fit. Assembling my taco bell doritos box of deliciousness is a service I enjoy, but it's not too hard to do.

No one deserves anything they haven't obtained for themselves in some fashion.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[_Stormin_]

Beyond hope... You're simply beyond hope. It becomes an insane spiral of money racing after dollars. It takes time, but it ends up Weimar Republic style every time without mandatory price controls which similarly devastate economies.

Companies aren't colluding to drive down wages, and you can provide zero proof of it. There are laws preventing companies from prohibiting or even intimidating people who are attempting to organize a union. Don't think for a second that the Obama justice department isn't chomping at the bit to sue the hell out of someone for that.

We need to ditch the victim mentality... I can't understand how a LEO would subscribe to it anyway.

[Alaskapopo]

Beyond hope... You're simply beyond hope. It becomes an insane spiral of money racing after dollars. It takes time, but it ends up Weimar Republic style every time without mandatory price controls which similarly devastate economies.

Companies aren't colluding to drive down wages, and you can provide zero proof of it. There are laws preventing companies from prohibiting or even intimidating people who are attempting to organize a union. Don't think for a second that the Obama justice department isn't chomping at the bit to sue the hell out of someone for that.

We need to ditch the victim mentality... I can't understand how a LEO would subscribe to it anyway.

I have seen employers one I had in fact threaten to fire anyone involved in trying to set up a union. Don't tell me it does not happen. As for wage collusion yes its difficult to prove but again that does not mean its not happening. Just like the price of gas how it magically stays the same at every station in a small town. Hmm.
Pat

[_Stormin_]

I have seen employers one I had in fact threaten to fire anyone involved in trying to set up a union. Don't tell me it does not happen. As for wage collusion yes its difficult to prove but again that does not mean its not happening. Just like the price of gas how it magically stays the same at every station in a small town. Hmm.
Pat

1 - Report the company. They should be punshied for breaking the law. I have zero sympathy for them. It's illegal for a reason.

2 - Prices and wages are always going to be similar in a limited economic environment. That's a consequence of competition and not at all a sign of collusion. You can "see the pattern" all you want, but it's simply resources competing for dollars. No one station can be that much higher on gas prices, as they would have no customers. No one station can be that low on gas prices, as they have to pay to refill the tanks, operate their business, and expect a profit for their efforts. Gas prices aren't all "about the same" because of collusion, but because of the fact that all stations are paying about the same price for more gas, paying similar costs to do business (lights, water, insurance, labor, etc...), any making a bit of profit for their effort. Your lowest price station is either operating more efficiently, making less profit overall and hoping to recoup lost potential revenue on volume (most common reason for momentary fluctuations to lower prices), or somehow refilling the tanks for less. Higher cost stations are less efficient, hoping to make more on the service end (customers will pay more for better service), or they are content on volume/margin.

Labor is the same way. If an employer offering a wage a number of dollars higher happens to open up, wages at all other employers will have to rise accordingly to retain their top employees. If not, they lose their people to the new employer. People transition into and out of the job market all the time. Every time someone is hired, the wage they are paid becomes the wage that other employers would have to pay to get an employee of equal caliber. You can isolate "competing companies" and only observe the "employee interactions" in a hiring market. The price for similarly skilled labor will always settle into pretty much the same dollar amount for similar businesses with ZERO contact between businesses. It's just how the free market works. And it does in fact work...

People in entry level jobs have just been sold a bill of goods that they "deserve better," and not that they need to earn it. Sorry, but that isn't how the world works. I've rewritten this last section like three times to make sure that it's devoid of personal attacks, but I really don't see how you think that it's justified that they receive anything more than what the labor market will pay for the skills they bring to the job.

[Sensei]

There are people out there on this forum who think that cops should not be making much more than minimum wage either. I am not saying that fast food workers should make X amount of dollars. I am saying that the minimum wage should actually be a wage that someone could survive off of without having to take a government handout or a 2nd or 3rd job. Right now that is not the case. I also think that these workers should be allowed to strike and see if they can get a better deal from management. Hopefully people will support them and management will at least concede a fair amount. Both side need to be allowed a seat at the negotiation table.
Pat

I suppose that you are also in favor of price controls since you are calling for an artificially inflated minimum wage. For example, raise the minimum wage on McDonalds and they will raise the price of their products and/or cut the number of employees to be profitable. So, you will be paying more for your Big Mac which effectively prices the poor out of their food unless government sets price limits on their products. Guess what happens then, more consumers with inflated wages plus artificially low prices equals scarcity.

If you don't believe me, then look at what happened in NYC during their period of rent price controls. A more recent example is what is currently happening to healthcare. Targeted price controls for the elderly and poor (Medicare and Medicaid) are destroying our economy.

It is called market distortion and it can be a real bitch.

[Alaskapopo]

1 - Report the company. They should be punshied for breaking the law. I have zero sympathy for them. It's illegal for a reason.

2 - Prices and wages are always going to be similar in a limited economic environment. That's a consequence of competition and not at all a sign of collusion. You can "see the pattern" all you want, but it's simply resources competing for dollars. No one station can be that much higher on gas prices, as they would have no customers. No one station can be that low on gas prices, as they have to pay to refill the tanks, operate their business, and expect a profit for their efforts. Gas prices aren't all "about the same" because of collusion, but because of the fact that all stations are paying about the same price for more gas, paying similar costs to do business (lights, water, insurance, labor, etc...), any making a bit of profit for their effort. Your lowest price station is either operating more efficiently, making less profit overall and hoping to recoup lost potential revenue on volume (most common reason for momentary fluctuations to lower prices), or somehow refilling the tanks for less. Higher cost stations are less efficient, hoping to make more on the service end (customers will pay more for better service), or they are content on volume/margin.

Labor is the same way. If an employer offering a wage a number of dollars higher happens to open up, wages at all other employers will have to rise accordingly to retain their top employees. If not, they lose their people to the new employer. People transition into and out of the job market all the time. Every time someone is hired, the wage they are paid becomes the wage that other employers would have to pay to get an employee of equal caliber. You can isolate "competing companies" and only observe the "employee interactions" in a hiring market. The price for similarly skilled labor will always settle into pretty much the same dollar amount for similar businesses with ZERO contact between businesses. It's just how the free market works. And it does in fact work...

People in entry level jobs have just been sold a bill of goods that they "deserve better," and not that they need to earn it. Sorry, but that isn't how the world works. I've rewritten this last section like three times to make sure that it's devoid of personal attacks, but I really don't see how you think that it's justified that they receive anything more than what the labor market will pay for the skills they bring to the job.

Thanks for that and I apologize for the comment earlier about eating cake. I understand what your saying but I also think that the minimum wage needs to be higher. Maybe not 15 bucks an hour but higher than 7.75.
Pat

[theblackknight]

No they don't. If they want better pay, they should get a better job. This isn't a skill that demands more money, otherwise it would already pay that much. These people do not deserve anything. They deserve to go better themselves or STFU.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[Honu]

I am 50
when I was a kid my friends worked at fast food joints when in HS maybe some just out to get on there feet that did not go to college most got out of it after that unless they stayed on as manager where they earned a lot more
when I was 15 I was a dish washer !
my dad was a %1 ! he made good money and his rich white kid was a dish washer ! other rich kids I knew worked along side me with poor kids ! these were what these jobs were for learning starting out ! they were not meant to be a career job !

how many white dish washers do you see anymore !

so your goal was to work to be a chef ! if you made it through dish washing and through being a line cook etc.. you had a chance ! chefs made a good living thats why many got into and stuck with it


problem is today entitled kids want demand higher pay jobs or wont do them so you have illegals and some poor people ! look at the % of folks on welfare these days the other part is the HUGE amount of lazy people who just work the system rather than get a job

I also remember kids picking food for summer jobs was not below them
at the same time the farmers did not have illegals to choose from !

maybe some would like some socialist society where every one is given enough money to do even low jobs so they dont have to work that hard but the idea is those jobs should be for younger kids or some single person starting out not a career path !

fact is I am glad people make 10 million running these companies ! and dont share it ! that is what America is about the dream if they got McDonalds where they are today then 10 million bonus cool

not many people can do what starbucks did McDonalds Costco or any large chain

making some company pay $15 is a way to keep people in a place where they make enough to be stuck in that job for ever cause of laziness many will take it all it does is make that cheap meal of shake fries and burger go from $5 to $10 and people will quit going and thousands of jobs will be lost !

problem with many folks who think this giving them the money have never ran a business before and have no clue about how tough it really is

[Honu]

those that are above 40 most likely remember fast food places in HS age were filled with your friends working :) the cute chicks behind the counter and your buds flipping burgers and some older dude as manager.

these days most fast food places are either old people up front people who cant speak english flipping burgers and some young punk as a manager or a old person as a manager you can tell had to start working again

my friends some of them worked at gas stations when many were also the local mechanic ! during the summer many of them would be doing some other job like that or working at the grocery store as a stock boy etc..

not like that at all today ! and we are worse off for it ! IMHO

[polymorpheous]

Here here!

[HackerF15E]

None of these workers are indentured servants. They all freely took the job and thus entered freely into the contract they have with the company in which they work for the wage offered.

It is no business of the government (or society) to intervene in this contract, freely and voluntarily entered into by both parties.

These workers are free to leave that job and seek employment elsewhere if they don't feel they are being justly compensated for their labor.

There is no right or entitlement to any standard of living. The only thing is that every individual owns their labor, and has the right to sell or trade that labor for goods or services.

If these workers don't feel they are making enough money to sustain themselves, it is up to THEM and THEM ONLY to work more, or seek a new labor-for-pay contract with someone else, that will pay them better,

[Caeser25]

If these workers had valueable skills to offer employers and the job market, then they would go else where. They don't. They literally arnt worth anymore then they are paid. That's how this thing works. It's THEIR job to obtain whatever it is they need to survive as they see fit. Assembling my taco bell doritos box of deliciousness is a service I enjoy, but it's not too hard to do.


That about sums it up. Their wages reflect their skillset, not their needs.

[austinN4]

Economics 101 via the KISS method:

1. If you want to make more money, get a better job.

2. If you can't get a better job there is something wrong with you, not with what you are currently being paid.

3. Quit whining and expecting me to give you something for nothing. Change whatever you need to change and move on.

4. If you aren't willing to change, then STFU.

It really isn't any more complicate than that.

[The_War_Wagon]

Yeah, like no kidding. The FSA wants to get $15 an hour at McDonalds for flipping burgers.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/29/fast-food-workers-strike-across-the-nation-demand-15-an-hour/


I'm suddenly pulling for McDonalds to hire nothing BUT college graduates with 16th century Spanish Art degrees - at those wages - so the Obama demographic REMAINS un-employed. :angry:

Oh wait - I forgot. UN-employment pays MORE... :o

[Belmont31R]

Minimum wage contributes to inflation and the higher and higher you go the more expensive things become negating the effects of raising the minimum wage. It's like a dog chasing its tail.

Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage for a family. There has to be more responsibility other than being able to raise a family on a minimum wage salary.

[SteveS]

The CEOs are crying at the loss of their huge bonus.

[Honu]

they are not the ones walking out and screwing the company up ! its the idiots who think flipping burgers is a tough job its the greedy punks who are loosers instead of working to a high position they want it NOW !!

and its us that will pick up the tab for more unemployed


The CEOs are crying at the loss of their huge bonus.

[Belmont31R]

The CEOs are crying at the loss of their huge bonus.

Employee pay and benefits far outweighs a CEO's pay in any large company.

If you took a CEO of a company of 100,000 people who made $50,000,000 a year, paid him nothing, and divided that 50 mil up evenly to every employee they would make an extra $500 a year. Further, if we assume the average pay in that company is $40,000 a year, $500 extra, it would amount to an increase of just 1.2% a year.

Now, if you look at what the government takes out of our paychecks, that amounts to a lot more than 1.2%. Just SS and Medicare taxes take a lot more than that, and what's taken out is only half of the picture because the employer pays the other half for you so you don't get as pissed seeing that deduction.

So what's more beneficial to the employee? Lower taxes or a CEO who keeps the company running and provides you with employment? I'd much rather have people getting paid millions of dollars keeping a business afloat than pay the government to go give my money to someone else.

And very few CEO's are actually making that type of cash. Most don't break a million. The big paychecks are usually found in very large publicly traded companies where the CEO's pay is approved by the board. They can have performance incentives and can turn around a company to make much more than they were paid. If I pay someone $50,000,000 but they made me a billion in profits if say that was a pretty good deal.

[Heavy Metal]

Lots has changed in the last 236 years and we would be stupid to ignore things they are doing better.
Pat

Europe is going bankrupt much faster than we are. That which cannot go on forever won't go on forever.

[Heavy Metal]

http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22/robot-serves-up-340-hamburgers-per-hour/

This is going to be the outcome if this keeps up.

[Belloc]

I posted this on the abortion thread but think it is also relevant here:



http://tomohalloran.com/2013/08/08/ragamuffin-response-text/

“Well, as someone from Appalachia and the tenth of 11 children whose parents’ income was below the poverty line, I have to say most people are clueless when they talk about this. “Ragamuffins” indeed! My parents had hoped for 12 children and the final child miscarried. Mom had ten in her family and Dad had 12 in his.

No one starved to death. No one was cold or even hungry. The only ones who ever had trouble with that has been the current generation and only those that have cut themselves off from their Catholic faith and family. While my family income was poverty level, we were working poor with 12 hour days and with farming abilities that we used well. Our work ethic was excellent. All 11 children in my family are college graduates–most with advanced degrees.

Poverty is not an issue about a large number of children–we worked together for the good of the family. True poverty is NOT about a lack of money. It is about a lack of (example of) work ethic, a lack of education (or lack of valuing education), a lack of family connections–broken families (no one to catch you when you fall), a lack of charity (charity should start with the family), a lack of the ability to work due to addictions (drugs and alcohol.) Children in a stable, loving family are a way OUT of poverty for the whole family. I have seen it over and over here. Families more easily fall into poverty when there are few children.”



At the end of the day all AP is actually and unbelievably saying is that there are people who do not have a hard work or study ethic, who do not value education, and laugh at any notion of learning and practicing the virtues of temperance, chastity, diligence, and prudence, and because of this these people deserve to be paid much more. :rolleyes:

[SteveS]

It will be interesting to see what happens. What will the raise cost the consumer per meal? I don't care much for fast if you can call it food any way. What is an entry level job worth ?

[khc3]

Every Econ teacher I've ever talked to was very adamant on the fact that one thing results from each bump in the minimum wage, and that's a spike in unemployment in 'new workers' ie teenagers.

If these workers had valueable skills to offer employers and the job market, then they would go else where. They don't. They literally arnt worth anymore then they are paid. That's how this thing works. It's THEIR job to obtain whatever it is they need to survive as they see fit. Assembling my taco bell doritos box of deliciousness is a service I enjoy, but it's not too hard to do.

No one deserves anything they haven't obtained for themselves in some fashion.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

All pushing for higher wages will do for fast food workers is to accelerate the push for automation and robotics.

Fast food is expensive enough already. At some point the cost of it will cancel out the advantage of convenience. It already has for me, and if I know that I am paying $10+ for a "Value Meal" because the sullen dullard who screwed up my order is $15/hr, I will NEVER eat there again.

[NWPilgrim]

Exactly, just like Detroit found out. Sounds good to make $35/hr for unskilled factory work with great benefits. Until they cut number of positions they can afford and then customers switch to another source and your business closes.

At $15/hr (plus the increase in taxes the biz pays for) for the most unskilled job at McDonalds you can bet prices will go up. Business will drop off and many if those socialists will be unemployed

[randolph]

a lot of unions base their wages on a % of minimum wage.
you raise MW and it triggers wage negotiatons by several unions for raises.
(google is your friend)

if I had a college degree in medieval era lefthanded basket weaving, Id expect to be flipping burgers @ $7.50...

companies are going to make their profits, you double MW and McDonalds will half their workforce. you cant win if they dont let you.

No rational person would be for doubling the minimum wage.

[SPQR476]

Not that I eat a lot of fast food, now, anyway, but won't it be great when they get their way and you have to go to Canada or Mexico to visit Burger King, KFC, etc., because they are no longer financially viable businesses in the US?

Yay, socialism. :blink:

[ForTehNguyen]

They may be helping the cause because they agree with them much like the NRA may support local gun clubs. Regardless its good to see people fighting for their rights.
Pat

you dont have a right to a job. Unions love the minimum wage because it keeps out lower priced competition. Youre not suppose to live on a minimum wage thats for teenagers. I made more than min wage when I was 17. So if you have a much older person still making minimum wage, whos fault is that? You want to know how many workers are actually on minimum wage? 4.7% of workers, and over 40% of min wage earners are teenagers.

BTW hate to break it to you but life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness isn't in the Constitution, its in the Declaration of Independence.

[ForTehNguyen]

if the minimum wage was so good why stop at $15/hr. Why not make it $50, $100?

How the minimum wage decimated American Samoa's economy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LaPGIIAyk4)

[TAZ]

Sadly, the minimum wage thing may be focused on the mental midgets flipping burgers, but it has an impact on all the economy. Every one paying for minimum wage employee will have to raise their prices. McDonalds won't have to compensate the price of a meal due to their own emotes getting higher pay. They will have to do so for all the min. wage employees who participate in their whole supply chain. And that compensation tree is additive so the end result is a bit more than we think. The lettuce picker gets a raise so the price of the lettuce goes up a tad. The distributor has to pay more so he will charge more, but add to that the added cost of the warehouse guy's raise. The restaurant then needs to not only compensate for the increase in his labor costs, but also for the additional cost of the raw materials he buys to make the food. This happens to every single business entity in the country. In the end all people may end up taking hike more $$ in their checks, but their cost of living will go up to match. The skill less minimum wage guy will still be the skill less minimum wage guy who can't afford squat. Bad news is that the rest of us who won't get raises will have to pay inflated prices for things. For most of us living pay he into paycheck that means cutting back on spending. Which in turn means bad things for a consumer driven economy. This doesn't even consider the other problems that will crop up. Unions renegotiating their wages as a result. What are you going to do to the guy who as earned raises above min wage. You going to give him a raise as well to keep him or what??

Pat,

You are correct in that people have a right to try and negotiate for higher wages and better benefits, but IMO they have no right to win that negotiation. Nor do they have a right to not face the music for their choices aka if they don't show up for work like they are supposed to they should be fired.

You are also correct in that many socialist/communist revolutions were started off of the idea that people deserve to be treated better ( you stated it far better though). However, look back through history and tell me what all those people ended up with. Having grown up in that utopic workers paradise my view is that we got rationed food stuffs, unless you didn't make it through the line before stuff ran out; rationed energy (its a bear keeping a home warm in Minesotta like winters with no gas) and pretty much a system where by nobody was motivated to excel at anything. Eventually the system imploded, countries went bankrupt and lots of people died. Is that where you wish this country to end up, because that is exactly where it will go. We are people just like all others who have tried this crap. Why would anyone think that it won't happen to us??

[theblackknight]

Actually, hiring a bunch of theater majors might be good. At least they can act apologetic when they fail to keep tomatos out of my crunch wrap.

[Belmont31R]

Actually, hiring a bunch of theater majors might be good. At least they can act apologetic when they fail to keep tomatos out of my crunch wrap.


We have found eating fast food to be more expensive than making food at home. With us, a family of 4, we are looking at $25-30 for 4 'meals'. My wife got into recipe collecting, and I helped her organize them all into OneNote. So she has a huge recipe collection she can access on the fly. I like cooking, too, and can make a great meal that lasts us into seconds and such for $15.

I don't even like most fast food. It all has that same cheap greasy aroma and I probably wouldn't even care if they went out of business. I just don't want to see entrepreneurs lose their butt due to the gov and most people have no idea how big of a risk franchise owners are taking. Many name brands are nothing but selling franchises where you rope people into buying your product and using your name. It's almost like a time share. Plunk down 100k and see if you can make it.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I used to make minimum wage. Then I joined the military, took every LE related class and cert I could. Got out after four years, worked my ass off in the academy, worked odd jobs til I got hired with an agency, and now work my ass off for way more than minimum wage. Its not some success story or yay me story, its the story of American exceptionalism, and the idea that I own my own life and control my destiny. I'm not a union cop and I'm free to go where I want and do what I want as long as I work hard, accept consequences, and reap benefits. Why is this so ****ing hard to understand? To me its what not only makes this country great, but also life. Striking for $15 an hour when my wife went to school for her teachers degree and makes essentially that teaching kids and not flipping goddamn burgers. What a world, what a world.

[Belmont31R]

I used to make minimum wage. Then I joined the military, took every LE related class and cert I could. Got out after four years, worked my ass off in the academy, worked odd jobs til I got hired with an agency, and now work my ass off for way more than minimum wage. Its not some success story or yay me story, its the story of American exceptionalism, and the idea that I own my own life and control my destiny. I'm not a union cop and I'm free to go where I want and do what I want as long as I work hard, accept consequences, and reap benefits. Why is this so ****ing hard to understand? To me its what not only makes this country great, but also life. Striking for $15 an hour when my wife went to school for her teachers degree and makes essentially that teaching kids and not flipping goddamn burgers. What a world, what a world.

My wife went through nursing school was making about that teachers salary. If $3/hr separates a person from minimum wage and a professional we have huge problems.

[Honu]

some will say we have to close that gap so they have the same chances !
ENTITLED !!!!

yeah we are in a big hurt IMHO


My wife went through nursing school was making about that teachers salary. If $3/hr separates a person from minimum wage and a professional we have huge problems.

[The_War_Wagon]

Can't wait to see what's offered on the $15 menu, if the burger flippers get their way! :eek:

[Eurodriver]

My friend is a full time paramedic (not EMT) and how starting wage was $14.50/hr.

The guys who come help you out when you call 911 should not get paid less than McDonalds employees.