PDA

View Full Version : Short Stroking



K.L. Davis
06-10-06, 12:05
One of the common hiccups with the AR is short stroking… often you will not even know it is doing it, until your rifle starts to fail to pick up a new round. One early indication of problems is that the bolt does not lock back on an empty magazine. Let’s look at a few things that are common cause of the problem. All of this is assuming that you are running full power, good name ammunition. If you are shooting “Uncle Festers’ Bargain Brand Reloads”, get a box good ammo and see if you still are having problems.

First, and with nearly any problem with the AR – try a new magazine! I will talk more about the US magazines and our fighting doctrine concerning them, but if you are having any problem with your gun, switching magazines is almost always the first troubleshooting step -- even if the mag you are using works fine in another gun, that does not mean that it is fine in every gun! If you identify a bad magazine, get rid of it. Period.

Some magazines set too high in the well and cause the lips to rub against the bottom of the bolt. In some cases it is enough to slow the bolt down enough to short stroke, at times it can be enough to lock the bolt back from returning to battery.

The next easy thing to look at is lubrication – check out Pat Roger’s thread on here about lubrication… do not be afraid to lubricate the rifle, it is a machine.

With those easy things out of the way, let’s troubleshoot the rifle for some other common things – working from the front to the back.

The gas block – The front sight, gas block assembly should be looked at to make sure that it has not moved and is not leaking. If you have a cross pin mounted setup, most likely it has not moved, but the set screw type blocks can move (usually forward) or twist and block off the gas port. Carefully check to see if it looks like the gas block has moved, you can usually see marks that indicate it has moved… it only takes an eighth inch to cause problems.

Also check for leaking, the most common sign is a brownish, rust looking stain around the barrel where it passes through the gas block. Some people will tell you that this is normal and will “seal” with time – it may be normal, but it is not right. The TDP specs for the barrel to gas block fit are one of the most exact measurement on the gun, this is a zero tolerance fit and is not supposed to leak at all – if you are getting leaking here, I strongly suggest talking to the supplier or builder about making it right.

The gas tube – Make sure the gas tube is tight in the gas block and again is not leaking. Double check the roll pin that locks the tube into the gas block, this is all that holds the gas tube and if it has worked out a little the ports will not line up. Check to make sure the tube is not bent or ruptured… The fit of the tube in the gas block is another very precise specification and there should be no leaking around the tube where it fits into the gas block.

Moving back to the bolt assembly, first take a look at the bolt key – it must be tight. The two screws that hold it on should be torqued and locked by staking. If you can wiggle or move the gas key any at all, the key needs to be removed, the surface under it cleaned and then properly reinstalled.

Pull the bolt and check the gas rings… these are much more forgiving than many people think, I have seen guns work fine with rings broken, missing, or the gaps all lined up -- but just to make sure, check that they are in good shape, not broken, worn or missing and stagger the gaps so that they are at 3, 6 and 9 o’clock.

Moving further back, check the buffer to make sure it is the proper weight for your rifle, running too heavy of a buffer can cause short stroking, especially in a rifle length gas/barrel system – also check the recoil spring, an over length or “heavy” spring can cause problems at times.

These are the “quick check” items for initial troubleshooting – if you run through these and still have a problem, let us know… someone on the board will get you fixed up quick, fast and in a hurry!

jmart
06-10-06, 12:53
There's a piece over at Maryland AR15 that also explains that short stroking can occur from an overgassed condition as well. The explanation goes something like this: extraction is initiated very quickly, before the case releases its grip on the chamber walls. The energy which would normally be used to cycle the weapon is wasted/dissipated during this hitch in the extraction phase. By the time the case shrinks, releasing its grip on the chamber's walls, there isn't enough gas/energy left to fully cycle the weapon. In this instance adding weight or anything else that can be done to delay the unlocking and extraction initiation cycle is a good thing. Tell tale signs of overpressure are mangled rims and flattened or leaky primers. Absent these indications, it's probably a safe bet that you are dealing with an underpressure condition which warrants checking all the items you mentioned.

Assuming this also is an accurate explanation for short stroking, it's clear that the AR operates within a specified port pressure window for reliable functioning (assumes no leakage along the gas path). Too little and there's not enough ooomph to cycle the weapon. Too much and you run into hitches.

K.L. Davis
06-10-06, 13:32
There's a piece over at Maryland AR15 that also explains that short stroking can occur from an overgassed condition as well...

Thanks for the info... I tried to keep this down to a very basic, mostly visual check that a person can do before moving on to the somewhat weirder things -- and there are weird things.

K.L. Davis
06-10-06, 13:33
doh!!!

Seth Harness
02-03-07, 10:39
it happened to me from dirty ammo. I really want a piston :(

az_gun_nut
02-03-07, 11:28
There's a piece over at Maryland AR15 that also explains that short stroking can occur from an overgassed condition as well. The explanation goes something like this: extraction is initiated very quickly, before the case releases its grip on the chamber walls. The energy which would normally be used to cycle the weapon is wasted/dissipated during this hitch in the extraction phase. By the time the case shrinks, releasing its grip on the chamber's walls, there isn't enough gas/energy left to fully cycle the weapon. In this instance adding weight or anything else that can be done to delay the unlocking and extraction initiation cycle is a good thing. Tell tale signs of overpressure are mangled rims and flattened or leaky primers. Absent these indications, it's probably a safe bet that you are dealing with an underpressure condition which warrants checking all the items you mentioned.

Assuming this also is an accurate explanation for short stroking, it's clear that the AR operates within a specified port pressure window for reliable functioning (assumes no leakage along the gas path). Too little and there's not enough ooomph to cycle the weapon. Too much and you run into hitches.

Unfortunately his recommended gas port sizes are way too big.

14.5 inch barrel should be at .061 - .062 Runs great with an H or H2 buffer

11.5 inch barrel should be at .069 Runs great with an H or H2 buffer

Tested, verified and lots of ammo dumped on FullAuto with both.

SHIVAN
08-18-07, 15:55
bump...

Pesty0311
03-29-08, 18:01
I have a problem that sounds like a "Short Stroke" but happens before the gun even goes bang.

When I load a magazine and pull the charging handle the bolt will stop half way with a round just heading into chamber. This happens with WWB Wolf and a few of the other less expensive ammunitions. Doesn't seem to happen with M855 or XM/M193 but due to cost and some ranges not wanting 855 to be shot its become a real pain in the ass. I can pull the charging handle again and it will seat the round but every 2-3 rounds during firing it happens. Any suggestions?

Mags are a mix of Steel SA80's and D&L's with magpul followers rifle has under 2k out of it. I assembled the lower myself and am wondering if anything I did could be causing it. Upper is a MSTN build and when I run good ammo it functions. I would say its the ammo but when it happens during the loading cycle I wonder if I ****ed up somewhere.

Ridgerunner665
03-29-08, 18:11
the most common sign is a brownish, rust looking stain around the barrel where it passes through the gas block.

I have a little bit of this "stain"...but its not on the barrel...its on the gas tube.

The only time my gun short strokes is with fast powders such as AA 2230 and Reloder 10x. And even then its barely noticeable...it feeds fine, but fails to lock the bolt back or it locks it back but is caught on the bolt carrier...not the bolt face.

BTW the gun in question is a standard model S&W.

Iraqgunz
03-30-08, 00:30
Just an FYI- the gas ring staggering myth was put to sleep quite a while ago and does nothing.

Shihan- We may have bought a home in Goodyear. We are waiting for the agent to get back to us. I am there now. Take care.

WS6
03-30-08, 03:06
I have a problem that sounds like a "Short Stroke" but happens before the gun even goes bang.

When I load a magazine and pull the charging handle the bolt will stop half way with a round just heading into chamber. This happens with WWB Wolf and a few of the other less expensive ammunitions. Doesn't seem to happen with M855 or XM/M193 but due to cost and some ranges not wanting 855 to be shot its become a real pain in the ass. I can pull the charging handle again and it will seat the round but every 2-3 rounds during firing it happens. Any suggestions?

Mags are a mix of Steel SA80's and D&L's with magpul followers rifle has under 2k out of it. I assembled the lower myself and am wondering if anything I did could be causing it. Upper is a MSTN build and when I run good ammo it functions. I would say its the ammo but when it happens during the loading cycle I wonder if I ****ed up somewhere.

Make sure the feed-ramps have no snags or gaps where they begin and if-so, determine if a dremel tool will blend them well. If you do not feel qualified, there are several people on this board who can probably help out.

Also, I have heard that a SLIGHT amount of leakage around the gas-tube at the FSB is normal. All of the Colts in the closet as well as my Sabre do this to a slight extent. They will run any wolf you feed them reliably. My Sabre was short-stroking every 3rd round with only 50 rounds of good ammo through it, by the 150 round mark it would feed wolf flawlessly until the end of the mag where it would not lock back the bolt. I bet in the future it will only get better.

ETA: When NOTHING ELSE fixes a short-stroke, check the gas-port in the barrel to see if the chrome-lining is obscuring it. It has happened before and I am sure it will happen again to SOMEONE out there. I file this under "wierd" :)

Shihan
03-30-08, 03:44
Just an FYI- the gas ring staggering myth was put to sleep quite a while ago and does nothing.

Shivan- We may have bought a home in Goodyear. We are waiting for the agent to get back to us. I am there now. Take care.

You were supposed to let me know when you got out here. How long are you staying?

Shihan
03-30-08, 03:46
Verify that you are not running M4 lower with rifle feed-ramps. Also verify that you do not have a small gap between the beginning of the feed-ramp and the lower. In case of the latter scenario, look at it, and determine if a dremel tool will blend them well. If you do not feel qualified, there are several people on this board who can probably help out.


Uh there are no feedramps on a lower.

WS6
03-30-08, 12:09
Uh there are no feedramps on a lower.

Wow...special. That was one of my LATE NIGHT posts and indeed correct you are. I'm just gonna go sneak back and edit that one...

Pesty0311
03-30-08, 22:22
Thanks for the input guys. I think the problem may be the cuts and am headed to the range Tuesday to run some more rounds threw her. As far and the dremel tool goes what bit should I be using, grey round stone? I cycled a mag out of here tonight trying to see where it was getting hung up and had no problems go figure.

Iraqgunz
03-31-08, 00:41
Yes, I know. Unfortunately, I was so busy it was unreal. My sister had set me up with an agent in the area who is affiliated with GMAC where she is an agent. We looked at 13 houses and were just running around like crazy.



You were supposed to let me know when you got out here. How long are you staying?

Shihan
03-31-08, 11:35
Thanks for the input guys. I think the problem may be the cuts and am headed to the range Tuesday to run some more rounds threw her. As far and the dremel tool goes what bit should I be using, grey round stone? I cycled a mag out of here tonight trying to see where it was getting hung up and had no problems go figure.

I wouldnt do it yourself, find someone local who is in the know.

Shihan
03-31-08, 11:36
Yes, I know. Unfortunately, I was so busy it was unreal. My sister had set me up with an agent in the area who is affiliated with GMAC where she is an agent. We looked at 13 houses and were just running around like crazy.

Well let me know when you get back and we will hook up.

Gentle Ben
03-31-08, 16:19
I had an AR short-stroke on me.

I (and several others) checked everything and couldn't figure it out.

Turned out it was a popped primer that got into the gas key, and was stuck all the way down where it couldn't be seen.

WS6
03-31-08, 22:09
I had an AR short-stroke on me.

I (and several others) checked everything and couldn't figure it out.

Turned out it was a popped primer that got into the gas key, and was stuck all the way down where it couldn't be seen.


How did you discover it?

Gentle Ben
04-01-08, 08:13
It's a convoluted story.

When I had the problems, I, as well as several folks I know who are pretty knowledgable about ARs, checked it over and couldn't find anything.

Right about the same time I was planning to have the ban-era muzzle brake cut off, the bbl threaded, and a Phantom attached. I told the gunsmith about the problem, and he said he'd look it over. I sent him the upper only, no BCG or CH.

He did the work, test-fired it on one of his lowers, and said it ran great. He said he only ran a pipe cleaner down the gas tube. (which I'd also done).

I got it back, and immediately took it upper only) to the range along with another complete AR. I swapped the BCG and CH into the fixed upper and it ran fine. I was still confused that it could go from short stroking to running fine with so little attention. I was just glad it was working.

I took it home, assembled it with all its own parts, and it sat in my safe for a few months until I decided to sell it. The new owner got it, took it to the range, and immediately called me to tell me it wasn't functioning. I'm thinking WTF?!?! At first I thought he was trying to scam some $ out of me, but when he described the symptoms, it was the same as before. Again, WTF?!?!?!

I told him the back-story, and offered to give him a full refund. He said he wanted to look at a few things himself, and during his investigation (I think he used a bore light), he found the primer jammed in the gas key. He removed the gas key and drilled the primer out, reassembled, and it ran 100%

It was then that I realized that the gun had run fine for the gunsmith and later for me because other BCGs had been used. Suffice it to say, I felt like an ID10T, but I learned something.