View Full Version : 6-8 year old shoots LEO on accident ?
hmmmm have to wonder what the REAL story is ?
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/02/lodi-police-officer-shot-when-child-pulled-trigger-on-his-gun-at-reading-event/
I am sorry but if you are at an event with children none of your weapons should be condition 0/1.
The press should have a field day with this one...:eek:
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 05:41
Fingers can reach triggers with ease on certain holsters that are built to accept pistols with lights attached
I am sorry but if you are at an event with children none of your weapons should be condition 0/1.
This is why I stay away from GD. Do you, based on the very little information presented, suggest that every time an officer or ccw holder is at an event with children present, they should remove the chambered round? How does that saying go "better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."
Anyway, I would like some more info on the holster.
Voodoo_Man
09-04-13, 06:17
Fingers can reach triggers with ease on certain holsters that are built to accept pistols with lights attached
Seen this happen before, had a loose molle strap AD a gun in my PD.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-04-13, 07:25
I am sorry but if you are at an event with children none of your weapons should be condition 0/1.
So basically when they are in public???
This guy literally had the bugger hook on the trigger.
Let's hope this doesn't lead to goofy holster designs with new issues to solve this issue.
Fingers can reach triggers with ease on certain holsters that are built to accept pistols with lights attached
I'm trying to think of some thigh rigs that might allow this, but none come to mind. Is there a particular holster that you had in mind?
Fingers can reach triggers with ease on certain holsters that are built to accept pistols with lights attached
I don't think I would want to wear that holster while executing a search warrant.
Something like this is definitely embarassing. I would expect the officer's agency to look at all the circumstances surrounding the incident and make adjustments to policy, procedure and equipment selection.
crusader377
09-04-13, 09:20
Based on the information provided, I think the officer should be fired. He clearly lacks the basic discipline for properly carrying of a weapon and is a liability for the community and department.
The comments on that article are unusually painful to read.
This is why I stay away from GD. Do you, based on the very little information presented, suggest that every time an officer or ccw holder is at an event with children present, they should remove the chambered round? How does that saying go "better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."
Anyway, I would like some more info on the holster.
There is a huge difference between an officer on patrol or posted at a school or an event than officers at a public demonstration for children and young teens. Given that situation an officer should not be in condition 0/1 for the fact they are demonstrating gear and what not. Especially when children are the focus of their demonstrations and so forth. We all know children tend to crowd and are curious. Ten to one that child thought it was ok to go and touch that officers side arm as apart of the demonstration. Firearms were probably not used in their demonstration but that child probably didn't know any better. The officers illustrating their equipment should of had their weapons clear just for this type of incident. Doesn't mean other officers there not instructing but for presence/security should have been clear.
If I am the officer with the focus of attention for a group of children at an event I am not going to have a loaded weapon when showing our departments equipment and use of. Chances are those kids are going to crowd with excitement and curiosity, especially for a "cool factor" like a SWAT unit. The other officers on site not delivering the presentation would be the first line security/supervision/observers for any possible threats, not the presenting officer/officers.
A CCW'er is completely different as they are not a law enforcement agency delivering presentations to children for community support and education. One which presents their equipment where a sidearm can be confused/misinterpreted as apart of said equipment.
Alaskapopo
09-04-13, 10:11
Instead of shooting off with the fingers you should ask me to explain further.
There is a huge difference between an officer on patrol or posted at a school or an event than officers at a public demonstration for children and young teens. Given that situation an officer should not be in condition 0/1 for the fact they are demonstrating gear and what not. Especially when children are the focus of their demonstrations and so forth. We all know children tend to crowd and are curious. Ten to one that child thought it was ok to go and touch that officers side arm as apart of the demonstration. Firearms were probably not used in their demonstration but that child probably didn't know any better. The officers illustrating their equipment should of had their weapons clear just for this type of incident. Doesn't mean other officers there not instructing but for presence/security should have been clear.
If I am the officer with the focus of attention for a group of children at an event I am not going to have a loaded weapon when showing our departments equipment and use of. Chances are those kids are going to crowd with excitement and curiosity, especially for a "cool factor" like a SWAT unit. The other officers on site not delivering the presentation would be the first line security/supervision/observers for any possible threats, not the presenting officer/officers.
A CCW'er is completely different as they are not a law enforcement agency delivering presentations to children for community support and education.
No you carry your guns they way they are designed to be carried no matter what. You also use a good holster that covers the trigger and most importantly you keep aware of your surroundings. If a kid could pull the trigger on his weapon so could a bad guy. I have not personally seen a holster that accepts lights where you could easily pull the trigger. I use a Safariland 6280 and no way someone could pull the trigger on my Glock with the gun in the holster.
Pat
No you carry your guns they way they are designed to be carried no matter what. You also use a good holster that covers the trigger and most importantly you keep aware of your surroundings. If a kid could pull the trigger on his weapon so could a bad guy. I have not personally seen a holster that accepts lights where you could easily pull the trigger. I use a Safariland 6280 and no way someone could pull the trigger on my Glock with the gun in the holster.
Pat
Yeah a bad guy is going to walk up in the middle of an organized law enforcement event full of children with other officers there specifically to overwatch for threats, right up to the presenting/demonstrating officer and pull his damn weapon. There is no logic in that. Coming from a law enforcement officer you should know better. Plain and simple the presenting officers should have cleared weapons with another group of officers for security and this wouldn't have happened. Period.
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 10:18
I'm trying to think of some thigh rigs that might allow this, but none come to mind. Is there a particular holster that you had in mind?
The Safariland 6360 body will permit it. At least on the M&P models it does
YouTube video showing how this can occur (http://youtu.be/S1OD8fcfRkk)
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 10:38
Instead of shooting off with the fingers you should ask me to explain further.
There is a huge difference between an officer on patrol or posted at a school or an event than officers at a public demonstration for children and young teens. Given that situation an officer should not be in condition 0/1 for the fact they are demonstrating gear and what not. Especially when children are the focus of their demonstrations and so forth. We all know children tend to crowd and are curious. Ten to one that child thought it was ok to go and touch that officers side arm as apart of the demonstration. Firearms were probably not used in their demonstration but that child probably didn't know any better. The officers illustrating their equipment should of had their weapons clear just for this type of incident. Doesn't mean other officers there not instructing but for presence/security should have been clear.
If I am the officer with the focus of attention for a group of children at an event I am not going to have a loaded weapon when showing our departments equipment and use of. Chances are those kids are going to crowd with excitement and curiosity, especially for a "cool factor" like a SWAT unit. The other officers on site not delivering the presentation would be the first line security/supervision/observers for any possible threats, not the presenting officer/officers.
A CCW'er is completely different as they are not a law enforcement agency delivering presentations to children for community support and education. One which presents their equipment where a sidearm can be confused/misinterpreted as apart of said equipment.
Clearing out your duty weapon, while on duty, is generally not done and is often a violation of departmental policy. For demos such as the one mentioned there is usually only minimal staffing from the officers.
Clearing out your duty weapon, while on duty, is generally not done and is often a violation of departmental policy. For demos such as the one mentioned there is usually only minimal staffing from the officers.
I understand that; I am not saying clear their weapon right there at the event. I am saying the specific officer presenting the demo itself should have his weapon already clear or secured elsewhere while the other officers on site not being the presenters ready as usual and more focused on security for the event than the demo itself but not specifically detached for community involvement issues (think community policing). That way an incident like this or similar doesn't unfold while still having proper security.
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 10:56
I understand that; I am not saying clear their weapon right there at the event. I am saying the specific officer presenting the demo itself should have his weapon already clear or secured elsewhere while the other officers on site not being the presenters ready as usual and more focused on security for the event than the demo itself but not specifically detached for community involvement issues (think community policing). That way an incident like this or similar doesn't unfold while still having proper security.
You're entitled to your view. :D
The Safariland 6360 body will permit it. At least on the M&P models it does
YouTube video showing how this can occur (http://youtu.be/S1OD8fcfRkk)
Holy Crap Batman! :eek:
Thank you Sir for that video. Excuse me while I go check all of my 6004's and 6304's.
You're entitled to your view. :D
Very true sir, very true.
The Safariland 6360 body will permit it. At least on the M&P models it does
YouTube video showing how this can occur (http://youtu.be/S1OD8fcfRkk)
I'll bet the lawyers at Safariland love that video. I'll have to ring up one of our tactical guys and ask what he is using to carry his Glock 22.
“Hopefully, speaking to the child and the child’s parents to find out how they were able to get access to the officer’s gun, what the child’s intent may have been—we don’t know if it was accidental or unintentional.”
Really? You have to question whether or not a 6-8 year old child had intentionally fired that weapon? Stay classy Lodi PD.
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 11:14
I'll bet the lawyers at Safariland love that video. I'll have to ring up one of our tactical guys and ask what he is using to carry his Glock 22.
I doubt that they have seen it yet considering that I just filmed it within the hour. ;)
Look at the bright side. One person received a minor injury and his agency is a little embarrassed right now.
If the officer had reacted with a weapon retention technique and injured the child, the media would be having a field day.
montanadave
09-04-13, 11:34
Hey, in a perfect world one of the other officers should have seen the kid go for the gun and taken him down before he was able to get his little booger hook in there. :)
Embarrassing situation, to be sure, but thankfully no one was seriously injured or killed and it will result in a lot of folks taking a very close look at their equipment and procedures to minimize the likelihood of a repeat episode.
I understand that; I am not saying clear their weapon right there at the event. I am saying the specific officer presenting the demo itself should have his weapon already clear or secured elsewhere while the other officers on site not being the presenters ready as usual and more focused on security for the event than the demo itself but not specifically detached for community involvement issues (think community policing). That way an incident like this or similar doesn't unfold while still having proper security.
Your post has a lot of merit, it would have eliminated the discharge in this particular incident.
The video of the safari land holster is definitely a AD waiting to happen. I'm glad I do not own one.
Competition gun for duty use? I Know there was a thread where this was beaten to death, but it was more about the hole in the slide.
But the Glock 35 does have the "-" 3.5lb connector. This would not have happened with a de-cocked DA/SA pistol, or a SA pistol on safe.
“Hopefully, speaking to the child and the child’s parents to find out how they were able to get access to the officer’s gun, what the child’s intent may have been—we don’t know if it was accidental or unintentional.”
Really? You have to question whether or not a 6-8 year old child had intentionally fired that weapon? Stay classy Lodi PD.
Someone in the article's comment section mentioned that they will probably put out an APB on a 4'6" white male, weighing approx 85 lbs, last seen carrying a backpack and Superman lunchbox, headed Westbound on Sesame St. in a yellow truck...
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 12:45
Competition gun for duty use? I Know there was a thread where this was beaten to death, but it was more about the hole in the slide.
But the Glock 35 does have the "-" 3.5lb connector. This would not have happened with a de-cocked DA/SA pistol, or a SA pistol on safe.
The LE 34/35's don't have the "-" connector in them
Alaskapopo
09-04-13, 12:56
Yeah a bad guy is going to walk up in the middle of an organized law enforcement event full of children with other officers there specifically to overwatch for threats, right up to the presenting/demonstrating officer and pull his damn weapon. There is no logic in that. Coming from a law enforcement officer you should know better. Plain and simple the presenting officers should have cleared weapons with another group of officers for security and this wouldn't have happened. Period.
As someone who has given countless demonstrations to groups your wrong. Now I do agree you should have some empty weapons for the demo but my personal weapons stay loaded. Also you generally don't have the man power to put a security detail on an officer giving a presentation. Your talking without any experience on the subject.
pat
Alaskapopo
09-04-13, 13:23
Competition gun for duty use? I Know there was a thread where this was beaten to death, but it was more about the hole in the slide.
But the Glock 35 does have the "-" 3.5lb connector. This would not have happened with a de-cocked DA/SA pistol, or a SA pistol on safe.
It would not have happened had the officer been more aware of what was going on around him. Also I prefer a 3.5 pound trigger for duty use. Having a heavier trigger does not make the gun safer only more difficult to fire. Keep your finger and other peoples fingers off the trigger of your weapon.
Pat
I like to keep things simple. The concept of a retention holster is to prevent an officer from being shot with his/her own service pistol. It would appear the equipment this officer was issued is not suitable for the task.
If I described how I use to make my service pistol safer when responding to bar fights, it would give a few LEO a heart attack.
thopkins22
09-04-13, 14:32
Are we sure he wasn't the only one professional enough at the event to carry that Glock .40? :p
ETA: I mean, they don't know who did it...to me it sounds like he finger banged himself. I realize that there are holsters that allow this to happen, I just find it far more likely that he did it to himself facilitated by such a holster.
Think about it. A three foot six child would have to reach up to head level, turn his hand down almost vertical as shown in NCPatrolAR's video, know where the trigger was, then manage to get his finger fully on the trigger to disengage the safety and press up on the trigger, all with his hand at a weird angle in relation to wear his forearm would have been.. It just strikes me as a stretch is all I'm saying.
As someone who has given countless demonstrations to groups your wrong. Now I do agree you should have some empty weapons for the demo but my personal weapons stay loaded. Also you generally don't have the man power to put a security detail on an officer giving a presentation. Your talking without any experience on the subject.
pat
You don't need a whole department for a detail. It only takes 1 or 2 officers to lead the demo and the rest on standby for assistance/guidance and so forth. These demos commonly have a handful of officers. I have yet to see any law enforcement community activism ever have less than 3 or 4 officers involved. The circumstances dictate the conditions. Are you so scared to have 1 officer not armed when surrounded by youth and a few other officers who are armed? I don't care what your policy and procedures are, it is not a hard concept to grasp. It IS NOT an everyday on the beat patrolling, SWAT team breaching a house, undercover officer working a case, gang unit raiding a gang hideout, or any other operation to carry unloaded; not at all what I am getting at.
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 15:08
Stop with the questioning of experience/flashing of e-penises. There's absolutely no reason people should be going after each other in this thread.
NCPatrolAR
09-04-13, 15:10
I have yet to see any law enforcement community activism ever have less than 3 or 4 officers involved.
Our community coordinators regularly do events solo or with one other officer.
Someone in the article's comment section mentioned that they will probably put out an APB on a 4'6" white male, weighing approx 85 lbs, last seen carrying a backpack and Superman lunchbox, headed Westbound on Sesame St. in a yellow truck... :lol:
He was last seen in the company of a green frog and big yellow bird.
WOW
I dont own any safariland stuff but have to say that seems like a really bad design ? for that kinda holster ?
speed setup I can see but more tactical style I think I would not want that happening ! even a lot of camping and stuff could see easy enough stick or something getting in there
I dont fight with people over my gun but as a LEO carrying daily ? I might be concerned with that setup again I dont know cause I am not LEO ;)
thanks for the link to that
The Safariland 6360 body will permit it. At least on the M&P models it does
YouTube video showing how this can occur (http://youtu.be/S1OD8fcfRkk)
Wasn't too long ago I remember several vocal opponents of open carry because "ordinary civilians" don't have the training and mindset to protect their weapon.
And I guess while I'm at it, this wouldn't have happened with a SERPA.
:D
But seriously, this isn't a matter of not having a round in the chamber if their are children with 21 feet. This is a matter of "don't touch my ****ing gun at all" and having that mindset as a constant regardless of if they are only kids.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
I assume everyone, even a 6-8 year old kid, who moves toward my weapon is a threat. Either because he intends to take my weapon and shoot me or simply stick his booger infested finger onto my gun or gear and possible discharge the weapon because he's somebodies stupid little moron and will end up shooting myself and / or another kid in the process.
So the rule is...
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
This applies to relatives, wives, gfs, your kids, etc. Everyone.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
I can't count the number of hands I've slapped away because somebody didn't understand this rule or why it exists.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
That is the rule, but it is MY JOB to enforce the rule.
Hey, in a perfect world one of the other officers should have seen the kid go for the gun and taken him down before he was able to get his little booger hook in there. :)
Embarrassing situation, to be sure, but thankfully no one was seriously injured or killed and it will result in a lot of folks taking a very close look at their equipment and procedures to minimize the likelihood of a repeat episode.
I have a procedure for you.
DON'T TOUCH MY GUN.
It applies to all, even other officers, it is a no exceptions rule and it is up to each individual officer to enforce as needed. Sure a child might cry if you have to slap his hand away from your weapon, but that is a lot better than having some other kid get shot.
Someone in the article's comment section mentioned that they will probably put out an APB on a 4'6" white male, weighing approx 85 lbs, last seen carrying a backpack and Superman lunchbox, headed Westbound on Sesame St. in a yellow truck...
:lol: Didn't see that! That's quality material haha
cookie monster is with him leaving a trail that's easy to follow :)
they will get him
Someone in the article's comment section mentioned that they will probably put out an APB on a 4'6" white male, weighing approx 85 lbs, last seen carrying a backpack and Superman lunchbox, headed Westbound on Sesame St. in a yellow truck...
David Pennington
09-04-13, 21:23
This is from the Safariland website. It was sent out and has been posted since October 2005.
____________________
Advisory for Handguns with Lights and/or Lasers Attached
October 21, 2005
Safariland® has been manufacturing holsters for handguns with lights mounted to them for over 10 years. The need for this application with the Law Enforcement, SWAT and military communities has grown into a requirement to include lasers as well as lights for duty applications.
At Safariland, we design all of our holsters to meet the rigorous standards we have set for function, reliability, security, ease of re-holstering along with the ability to obtain a shooting grip before the draw.
The design of a duty or tactical holster demands the existence of an opening large enough to allow the holstering of a given weapon, as well as any other equipment affixed to it. This can include custom grips, extended safeties, sights, de-cock levers, extended magazine releases, lights, lasers, etc.
Ultimately, the design for the opening of the holster is required to be slightly larger than the pistol accessory or light attached to it. Currently, there are many light/pistol/holster combinations on the market. The holster design is driven by the dimensions of the handgun and attached light and/or laser.
In the same manner that an agency would test, evaluate and approve a duty holster for retention capabilities, Law Enforcement agencies have the responsibility to evaluate and approve any modification to their duty handgun (including the addition of a light or laser), to ensure the weapon and holster are still operable in a safe manner that meets their requirements. Please be aware
that handguns with lights mounted to them create a necessarily large opening in the holster that could possibly allow access to the trigger of the holstered handgun.
For further information regarding “How to Evaluate a Holster” along with “Levels of Retention”, please review our training video TV-1027 (TV-1037 in PAL format). Customer Service would be happy to ship one to you at no charge.
Thank you for your interest in Safariland holsters
Download the Service Bulletin (PDF)
« Back to The Safariland Group News
Please be aware
that handguns with lights mounted to them create a necessarily large opening in the holster that could possibly allow access to the trigger of the holstered handgun.
Sounds like a perfect reason to adopt a "DON'T TOUCH MY GUN" standard policy across the board.
Sounds like a perfect reason to adopt a "DON'T TOUCH MY GUN" standard policy across the board.
can I touch your gun PLEASE :)
At first I was thinking holy shit, my buddy's ex wife done f'd up......then I read the story.
I admit, I am just coming across this as I don't do much paying attention our local news media.
Sounds like a perfect reason to adopt a "DON'T TOUCH MY GUN" standard policy across the board.
That's a good policy to adopt. Don't touch my pistol or my gun. :sarcastic:
Yeah a bad guy is going to walk up in the middle of an organized law enforcement event full of children with other officers there specifically to overwatch for threats, right up to the presenting/demonstrating officer and pull his damn weapon. There is no logic in that. Coming from a law enforcement officer you should know better. Plain and simple the presenting officers should have cleared weapons with another group of officers for security and this wouldn't have happened. Period.
No. Just No.
One's assignment makes no difference in what condition the weapon is to be carried
No. Just No.
One's assignment makes no difference in what condition the weapon is to be carried
And that is how this situation happened. Lack of accountability and a lack of common sense.
So afraid to have one person unloaded every common sense approach is thrown out of the window.
This point can be argued in circles all day but you aren't going to convince me one person surrounded by tens of kids that love to get into everything and touch everything should keep his weapon loaded demonstrating SWAT EQUIPMENT of all things. Knowing damn well it should be instant common sense to unload or secure his weapon when presenting to and letting a bunch of kids touch their equipment.
It can be said- "well then he should have been making sure no kids touch his weapon". Yeah, that makes sense, until you flop out a bunch of tacticool-guy gear in front of a ton of kids and expect them not to swarm; on top of that one officer trying to keep full accountability of them when Johnny nosey in the back decides to walk around up front to get a better look then it's "oh look a gun, this must be apart of the show" and then BANG.
He didn't need a weapon in the first place if there were other officers on site, and you know there was being a SWAT demo.
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