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RogerinTPA
04-22-08, 17:58
Wanna solicit opinions on the most effective AR ammo for defensive and offensive applications. Also, why you think your selection is the best and far as actual shoot data, terminal ballistics, fragmentation, bullet weight, etc... This has been sporadically covered before, over different threads and forums. Just trying to get the best information on this subject and post on this board. Industry professionals, war fighters and LEO's, please chime in. Any anecdotal info/sources, is also appreciated.

Failure2Stop
04-22-08, 18:53
I go with TAP 75gr, assuming that you mean 5.56, not SAAMI FPD.

C4IGrant
04-22-08, 18:59
MK262 is my first choice. If you have the TAP 75gr NATO T2, then it would be a close fight for my vote.


C4

decodeddiesel
04-22-08, 20:51
I go with TAP 75gr, assuming that you mean 5.56, not SAAMI FPD.

F2S, where would you spec 75gr TAP FDP on that list? Better than M193 but worse than Mk262?

Failure2Stop
04-22-08, 21:38
F2S, where would you spec 75gr TAP FDP on that list? Better than M193 but worse than Mk262?

I rank them in this order (cut from another post)-
#1- Hornady 75gr 5.56 TAP (excellent external and terminal ballistics).
#2- Black Hills 77gr Mk262 Mod 1 (almost as good as the 5.56 Hornady).
#3- Hornady 75gr .223 TAP (similar to 5.56 TAP, but loaded to SAAMI pressure instead of the higher NATO pressure, giving lower velocity with a different bullet)
#4- Federal 62gr JSP (good performance through glass, decent on bare gel, not huge permanent wound cavity, but very consistent and very short neck, quite pricey)
#5- M193 Type 55gr, loaded to NATO pressure (decent performance at close range also cheap enough to conduct high-volume training with duty ammo).

However, this is my subjective and personal choice only.
For solid, scientifically backed first-hand info, you should ask DocGKR, a true expert in the field that posts here.

Robb Jensen
04-22-08, 21:48
MK262 Mod 1 because I have a lot of it and my rifles are sighted in with in, 2nd'd by 75gr TAP, then M855....YMMV.

RogerinTPA
04-23-08, 14:25
So the heavier the round (with cannular, and optimum powder), the better for increased fragmentation, witch increases lethality, correct?

MK262 (Mod 0 & Mod 1) initially started as a "HPBT Match round" that the civilian competitors used at Camp Perry, before the military picked up on it, no?

RogerinTPA
04-23-08, 14:32
I go with TAP 75gr, assuming that you mean 5.56, not SAAMI FPD.

I meant both, being that 5.56mm maybe:

1. hard to come by.
2. MK626 maybe restricted to military only and if a civilian equivalent is available.
3. dependent on the availability and types of ammo at your location.

RogerinTPA
04-23-08, 14:44
I spoke with many Vietnam Vet's who swear by M193 (including my father) as far as putting the bad guys down very effectively. I guess I would have to take that with a grain of salt. Shooting small statured men less than 150lbs VS larger statured men 180lbs and up, would have very different effects, shot placement (CNS hit/head shot vs any other wounding trauma.) as far as effectiveness is concerned. I still wouldn't discount this round, but would rather have the "Most Effective" ammo available for both large and small bearded smelly men/Tangos/criminals.:cool:

Abraxas
04-23-08, 15:23
I spoke with many Vietnam Vet's who swear by M193 (including my father) as far as putting the bad guys down very effectively. I guess I would have to take that with a grain of salt. Shooting small statured men less than 150lbs VS larger statured men 180lbs and up, would have very different effects, shot placement (CNS hit/head shot vs any other wounding trauma.) as far as effectiveness is concerned. I still wouldn't discount this round, but would rather have the "Most Effective" ammo available for both large and small bearded smelly men/Tangos/criminals.:cool:

Also, in Nam the rifling was a different twist than what is currently common

RogerinTPA
04-23-08, 15:47
Also, in Nam the rifling was a different twist than what is currently common

Agreed. Even after Nam, the twist was 1:12 on the A1's with a 20 inch barrel (which I first cut my teeth on) until adopting the A2 in the mid 80's. I don't know if this is off base, but wouldn't a faster spin (1:7) increase fragmentation or is the difference (1:12 v 1:7) too inconsequential within a certain distance and barrel length?

decodeddiesel
04-23-08, 15:48
Also, in Nam the rifling was a different twist than what is currently common

I wouldn't think the rifling would make much of a difference so long as the round was sufficiently stabilized by the imparted spin. What would make a difference would be the barrel length with regards to velocity (fragmentation range) as the commonly issued M16s had a barrel length of 20" vs the 14.5" or 16" more often seen today. Of course 11.5" Colt Commando vs. 10.5" CQBR Mk. 18 is going to be 6 in one half dozen in the other.

Also I don't know that a 150lb NVA Charlie full of political fervor executing a bayonet charge is going to be any more "frail" or susceptible to M193 than Johnny With The Substance Abuse Problem coming into my home in the middle of the night looking to rip off my stuff and maybe rape my girlfriend. I would believe it is going to be equally effective on either target, but YMMV.

RogerinTPA
04-23-08, 16:16
How does Privi 75grain stack up against MK262 and Tap 77grn?

Is the Privi 75grn considered match ammo?

decodeddiesel
04-23-08, 16:22
How does Privi 75grain stack up against MK262 and Tap 77grn?

Is the Privi 75grn considered match ammo?

Excellent Question! Also how does the BH 77gr Match King compare I wonder. I was under the impression it was loaded to .223 SAAMI vs. Mk262 which is loaded to 5.56 NATO. Perhaps I am wrong?

DocGKR
04-23-08, 17:01
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

Folks this information is well known...do we really need to rehash it again???? If so, please read: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

-----------------------------------

For those folks who think the 55 gr M193 FMJ is a great 5.56 mm load for self-defense, the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:


“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

RogerinTPA
04-23-08, 17:58
Sorry about the aggravation Doc...This and other subjects like lube, should be "Tacked" to prevent further irritation and increase quick reference to ground previously covered. A thousand pardons!

Failure2Stop
04-23-08, 18:24
Thanks for coming in Doc.
Mods- is there any way that DocGKR's quoted info can be tacked here to avoid sending people over to TOS?

decodeddiesel
04-23-08, 19:12
Thanks for coming in Doc.
Mods- is there any way that DocGKR's quoted info can be tacked here to avoid sending people over to TOS?

Here here!!

Thanks for once again imparting your wisdom and knowledge on us.

Still though I do wonder where PRVI 75 gr OTM stacks up against the T2 and SMK.

DocGKR
04-23-08, 23:45
Hopefully we'll be testing some soon and I'll post the info.

decodeddiesel
04-23-08, 23:48
Awesome! Can't wait to see the results!

Beat Trash
04-24-08, 18:34
Thanks to reading what Dr. Roberts has posted over the years, with the facts posted to backup what he recommends, I load the Hornady 75 gr 5.56mm loading in my AR and the Winchester 147 gr (RA9T) in my pistol when off duty.

Dr. Roberts wouldn't want to know what I am issued as duty rounds (WWB 147JHP 9mm and Winchester 55gr Silvertip in .223), for 1,100 officers, as it might make him scream!

Our Range Master recently referred to our 9mm duty round (WWB) as "New technology". I feel he assumes any pistol round that is not a FMJ is "New technology"!

The politics involved in changing ammunition are astronomical... Still trying though.

Doc, thanks for sharing all of your experience. You're efforts, I am sure, will assist someone in coming home alive someday.

DocGKR
04-24-08, 19:56
Thank you for the very kind words. Let me know if I can provide any information to help you in your situation. Feel free to call contact me.

jmart
04-24-08, 22:43
Doc,

What are your thoughts on Corbon 53 grain? Do you characterize this in the same class as TBBC or does it behave differently enough to warrant its own classification?

johnson
04-24-08, 22:51
Is this the same Mk 262 mod 1 that's been mentioned? This was at Cabela's and was priced at $35.99. I can't find Hornady 5.56 NATO anywhere and this seems like the second best thing. I also picked up a box of Hornady 75gr .223 today that my dealer sells for $15.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMAGE_103.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMAGE_102.jpg

decodeddiesel
04-25-08, 09:42
Is this the same Mk 262 mod 1 that's been mentioned? This was at Cabela's and was priced at $35.99. I can't find Hornady 5.56 NATO anywhere and this seems like the second best thing. I also picked up a box of Hornady 75gr .223 today that my dealer sells for $15.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMAGE_103.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMAGE_102.jpg

Damn I wish I had a Cabelas nearby! Do the rounds have a cannelure? If so it is Mk 262 mod 1. Nice score, I wish I could find that stuff locally, TAP FPD is the best I can do.

johnson
04-25-08, 12:19
Damn I wish I had a Cabelas nearby! Do the rounds have a cannelure? If so it is Mk 262 mod 1. Nice score, I wish I could find that stuff locally, TAP FPD is the best I can do.

Yes they do.

decodeddiesel
04-25-08, 12:56
Very nice. I have had trouble just finding that stuff (Mk. 262 Mod 1) online.

WS6
04-28-08, 02:38
I keep a PMAG loaded with LE223T3 in my AR. No matter whether I need to punch a windshield, or there is nothing at all between the target and I, it will penetrate 12"+, expand to AT LEAST 1.6x it's diameter, and the round is sealed neck and primer. The only downside is that it makes anything else seem WOLF cheap at the register :( .

Here are the results of me playing with some of it before I decided it was what I should have for my loaded SHTF mag:

(recovered slug from water jugs shot at about 80 yards)

http://i30.tinypic.com/293g5j5.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/zkl6b8.jpg

johnson
04-28-08, 08:30
I keep a PMAG loaded with LE223T3 in my AR. No matter whether I need to punch a windshield, or there is nothing at all between the target and I, it will penetrate 12"+, expand to AT LEAST 1.6x it's diameter, and the round is sealed neck and primer. The only downside is that it makes anything else seem WOLF cheap at the register :( .

Here are the results of me playing with some of it before I decided it was what I should have for my loaded SHTF mag:

(recovered slug from water jugs shot at about 80 yards)

293g5j5.jpg
jpg

You're not worried about it penetrating multiple walls?

WS6
04-28-08, 08:47
You're not worried about it penetrating multiple walls?

I live in a campus appartment and thus cannot keep a weapon there. The AR stays out at my Dad's house which is in a dead-end neighborhood that we own, the house is brick.

If I were to fire the weapon inside the house, I would do so from the kneeling position as I do not have a plan to go "hunting" people down in the house, but rather am purely defensive and would let them come into the hall/room, ID, and fire if neccesary. This means any rounds missing/overpenetrating would not be at a level that would harm anyone more than a few feet behind them as I would be firing up at at least a 30* angle and aiming at chest/head.

When I move to a different complex and can keep the weapon with me, I will switch to 40gr VMAX and train to shoot to lock-back (recoil is non-existant with 40gr VMAX, my FSC556, and Enidine buffer in a 20" platform, I can literally pull the trigger as fast as I can and get good hits at a room-size distance.) and count on amount of trauma to win the day as penetration will suck, BUT through a sheetrock wall it wont do jack.

You do raise a VERY good point for people in housing complexes though that are not in my unique situation (in the middle of nowhere).

Fail-Safe
04-28-08, 09:37
You're not worried about it penetrating multiple walls?

Anything that will penetrate enough to reach the vital will also penetrate numerous walls if one were to miss.

johnson
04-28-08, 10:07
Anything that will penetrate enough to reach the vital will also penetrate numerous walls if one were to miss.

I know but I read this recently regarding LE223T3.


Acceptable performing 5.56 mm/.223 ammunition choices for law enforcement duty in 1 in 9" or faster twist barrels are noted below:

Black Hills 60 gr JSP
Winchester M-855 62 gr FMJ (RA556M855)
Federal 62 gr Tac JSP (LE223T3)
Winchester 64 gr JSP (Q3246)
Black Hills 68 gr JHP
Federal 69 gr JHP (223GM)
Winchester 69 gr JHP (S223M)
Black Hills 73 gr JHP
Black Hills 75 gr JHP
Hornady 75 gr TAP (80265)

The ONLY .223 load we shot which offered adequate penetration after shooting through automobile windshields was the Federal 62 gr Tactical (LE223T3). The trade off is that the Federal Tactical does not fragment, maintains the deepest penetration of any .223 bullet after penetrating walls, and as a result, may not be the best choice for entry or urban settings. (The older Federal 55 gr Tactical (LE223T1) for 1/12 twist weapons offers the same type of deep penetration and performance against automobile windows). The other .223 loads listed above which offer good performance for entry or other anti-personnel applications had insufficient penetration and retained mass after shooting through the car windows.

WS6
04-28-08, 10:31
I know but I read this recently regarding LE223T3.

I guess 9mm, .45, .357, and .40 are bad for home-defence too then :(

C4IGrant
04-28-08, 10:40
I guess 9mm, .45, .357, and .40 are bad for home-defence too then :(


Not that it is bad, just not the best choice.


C4

Ridgerunner665
06-20-08, 14:51
DocGKR,

Have you finished testing those Barnes TSX bullets yet???

I have been tinkering with the 62 grain version for a few months now...they have done well for me...accurate, and hold up well under pressure (glass, steel and such).

I load my own with 26 grains of Reloder 15...gets just under 2,900 fps from my S&W, and groups 10 rounds in 1 inch...sometimes less.

Iraqgunz
06-20-08, 17:59
Doc,

Thanks again for being a fountain of knowledge. I would like to share a little incident that I was involved in back in 1997 when I was working as a bail bondsman.

I arrived at a location at around 2340 hrs. to attempt an apprehension. Subject came to door and unknown to me at the time he had a .45 in his hand hidden behind his leg. After a brief conversation he basically said "he wasn't going to jail" and tried to slam the door. I pushed passed him and ended up in the livingroom. We exchanged a few words and then he shot me from a distance of about 10 feet. Fortunately, I was wearing body armor and managed to escape. I called 911 and within minutes the S.O arrived on scene. Many of the deputies that responded were carrying Ruger mini-14 rifles.

As deputies began to cordon off the house, dispatch called to report a man behind the residence with a weapon. One of the deputies then tried to go over the fence in the front of the residence and manuever to the rear. Subject was now armed with a Colt AR-15A2 rifle, 2-30 rd. mags taped together and a bayonet on the front. He fired one round at the deputy when his weapon malfunctioned (failure to eject-stovepipe). Deputy then fired 3 rounds at subject. This was now about 0005 hrs. and lighting was poor. Subject was hit 3times with 2 of the hits into his chest (right lung), collapsing his lung. We rushed towards the subject who was now face down and not moving. We secured the weapon and when they rolled him over the pistol was tucked into his pants. He was breathing very hard, with faomy blood coming from his mouth. Paramedics were already on scene for me and they rushed subject to Madigan Army Hospital, Ft. Lewis where he died about 45 minutes later. IIRC, the deputy told me that he was using 55 gr. ball ammo, and the distance was about 75 yards. Subject was approx. 5'10 and weight about 190-200 lbs.

Iraqgunz
06-20-08, 18:08
Doc,

Any thoughts on this ammunition? Thanks.

1035

RogerinTPA
07-03-08, 21:45
Hopefully we'll be testing some soon and I'll post the info.

Hey Doc, any updates with your testing/test results?

alistaire
07-04-08, 19:27
Doc,
What can you tell us about the original ARPA test results, which used 1/14 twist and a different bullet (the .30 M1 homologue, I believe)?

Alistaire

Armati
07-05-08, 12:39
What about the Federal 69Gr. Match King BTHP? I believe this was what the FBI (and others) were using just a few years ago.

RWK
07-05-08, 15:14
Doc,

Any thoughts on this ammunition? Thanks.

1035

Not trying to speak for Doc but, I asked the same question of him a couple weeks ago. He'd not done any testing with them yet. Said he'd try to get it on his list to do in the next few months.

TurretGunner
07-06-08, 19:30
I hear good results have been had from 64gr PP. More then a few departments have used/use them.


I have shot a few cases of BH 75Grain and a few boxes of 75grain TAP and value/performace goes to BH.

Alaska
07-08-08, 10:01
My vote goes to the 69 Sierra MK in my 1:9" Twist barrel otherwise it would be the Hornady 75gr

Normal on glass........better for glass the TSX or Trophy Bonded

Damascus
07-08-08, 15:15
I voted "other", as I am a fan of the 69 gr. Sierra Matchking BTHP. It works in 1x9" twist barrels, and also works well in 1x7" barrels.
I'm don't know how the 69SMK reacts to auto glass, but the way I've tested penetration and tissue damage in my ammo development, is to take a cardboard box, at least 12" W by 12" H for your target face, and depending on caliber, I like to have it 24" long for the "channel" for the bullet to stop in. I then fill the box up with heavy, thick phone books, sear's catalogs, etc., then wet it really well with water. When you shoot it, you can remove the wet books, measure how deep the bullet penetrated, and you can see how much damage it did because if the bullet expanded/fragmented/did it's job, the wound channel will be sometimes a few inches bigger than the bullet hole, and shredded paper in the wound channels.
I like the 69 SMK because from 0 - 50 yds, the bullet penetrates about 6-7" before completely fragmenting, causing massive damage. From 50 - 200 yds, the bullet penetrates evenly, and very deep. It outpenetrates M855 62 gr. by 5-8", and M193 by even more. My test rifle for this is a S&W M&P15T, 16" 1x9" CL.
For home defense, I like the 55gr. Sierra Blitzking (Hornady TAP loads this as well), doesn't penetrate much, but does massive tissue damage, and is "safer" to use in urban settings than others, IMO of course.
I haven't had an oppertunity to use the 77 gr. or 64gr. Gold Dot rifle rounds, but intend on doing some testing soon on the 64gr. GD.
Just my 2 cents :)

Bimmer
07-30-08, 13:22
Sorry about the aggravation Doc...This and other subjects like lube, should be "Tacked" to prevent further irritation and increase quick reference to ground previously covered. A thousand pardons!:D

Yes, how about making this a sticky?

Ben

markm
07-31-08, 08:21
My vote goes to the 69 Sierra MK in my 1:9" Twist barrel


Win used to load this as Match ammo in their RANGER line. I don't think they make it any more. :(

I only have one box left.

wichaka
07-31-08, 10:29
Speers new 64gr Gold Dot..........very impressive.

Got to shoot quite a bit of it last week at a ballistic test. Very good thru media, and still won't over penetrate.

decodeddiesel
07-31-08, 10:40
Speers new 64gr Gold Dot..........very impressive.

Got to shoot quite a bit of it last week at a ballistic test. Very good thru media, and still won't over penetrate.

I have heard a few whispers about this ammo. Do you have any idea on a time line as to when it will be available for civilian purchase? Also is it a controlled expansion round or does it still fragment?

RogerinTPA
07-31-08, 12:24
Speers new 64gr Gold Dot..........very impressive.

Got to shoot quite a bit of it last week at a ballistic test. Very good thru media, and still won't over penetrate.

Sounds interesting. I'm curious to see the results of your testing (with pics if available) of what this ammo can do. Thanks.

wichaka
07-31-08, 19:25
As of this time it's only available to LE folks. Check ATK's web site.

It won't fragment when going thru car glass or doors. They have done their homework with this one.

I don't have pics of the bullets we tested, but will do some more in the near future and will have some pics.

RogerinTPA
08-03-08, 18:31
Sounds good. Looking forward to seeing what they can do.

jchen012
08-04-08, 18:26
Hey all, newbie here. Thanks for all the great info. Unfortunately it seems that most of the great performing ammo is hard to find. Any recommendations for us civilians? What' s the best bullet for home defense (meaning no need to shoot through cars) and is easily found in stores/online? I understand that there are lots of good bullets out there, but most of them require an arm and a leg just for a box or they are LE/military restricted. By the way I have a 1:9 barrel.

Bimmer
08-04-08, 20:30
Unfortunately it seems that most of the great performing ammo is hard to find. Any recommendations for us civilians? What' s the best bullet for home defense (meaning no need to shoot through cars) and is easily found in stores/online?

Me, too.

Finding TAP or MK262 in 5.56 (not .223) is virtually impossible. If anybody knows a good source, pray tell).

And if I train with M193, then why not get 55gr. soft points, too? My understanding of ballistics (from pistol ammunition) is that lighter/faster bullets carry more energy at close ranges, and they're more likely to expand/fragment on impact.

Ben

RogerinTPA
08-04-08, 20:38
Hey all, newbie here. Thanks for all the great info. Unfortunately it seems that most of the great performing ammo is hard to find. Any recommendations for us civilians? What' s the best bullet for home defense (meaning no need to shoot through cars) and is easily found in stores/online? I understand that there are lots of good bullets out there, but most of them require an arm and a leg just for a box or they are LE/military restricted. By the way I have a 1:9 barrel.

Go through the ammo links section. I bought TAP 75 grain from the http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=336810 last week and it's still available. Welcome to M4C.

Bimmer
08-04-08, 21:23
Go through the ammo links section. I bought TAP 75 grain from the http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=336810 last week and it's still available. Welcome to M4C.

Finding TAP or MK 262 isn't the problem, it's finding it in 5.56 (NOT .223). Sportsmans Guide says it's selling .223.

Who's selling 5.56?

Ben

Damascus
08-05-08, 12:03
Hey all, newbie here. Thanks for all the great info. Unfortunately it seems that most of the great performing ammo is hard to find. Any recommendations for us civilians? What' s the best bullet for home defense (meaning no need to shoot through cars) and is easily found in stores/online? I understand that there are lots of good bullets out there, but most of them require an arm and a leg just for a box or they are LE/military restricted. By the way I have a 1:9 barrel.

Hornady TAP 55gr. Blitzking. Basically, ANY good varmint round that's 50 - 60 gr. would work well for home defense - they fragment on impact, inflicting massive tissue damage, and almost never leave an exit hole, and won't go all the way through your house and kill the kid next door (at least not compared to 62gr M855, or other tactical loads in the 69, 75, and 77 gr. range). If you can't get the TAP Blitzking load, Wally-world generally stocks 55gr. PSP varmint rounds - same things the NC state prisons use here for C.O.'s on perimeter patrol using Mini-14's (used to work at one - round was selected so one inmate could be targeted with a very low chance of overpenetration and wounding bystanders).

markm
08-05-08, 12:10
Who's selling 5.56?


I just ordered 3 boxes of this city slicker 5.56 stuff to try.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=20rds-556-hornady-tap-75gr-bthp-t2-ammo&cName=223-556-hollow-point-ammo

Bimmer
08-05-08, 12:39
Hornady TAP 55gr. Blitzking. Basically, ANY good varmint round that's 50 - 60 gr. would work well for home defense - they fragment on impact, inflicting massive tissue damage, and almost never leave an exit hole, and won't go all the way through your house and kill the kid next door (at least not compared to 62gr M855, or other tactical loads in the 69, 75, and 77 gr. range). If you can't get the TAP Blitzking load, Wally-world generally stocks 55gr. PSP varmint rounds - same things the NC state prisons use here for C.O.'s on perimeter patrol using Mini-14's (used to work at one - round was selected so one inmate could be targeted with a very low chance of overpenetration and wounding bystanders).

This makes me think that just about any 55-60gr. soft point is going to work about as well as any other as a self-defense round... I don't need to shoot through cars or walls (quite the opposite).

Ben

decodeddiesel
08-05-08, 14:23
Bimmer and Damascus, please allow me to refer you to page one of this thread, specifically the post by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR).

Reader's Digest version, varmint rounds are not ideal self defense rounds as they typically do not achieve the 12"-18" of penetration ideal to incapacitation of a human target.

Bimmer
08-05-08, 15:28
B
Reader's Digest version, varmint rounds are not ideal self defense rounds as they typically do not achieve the 12"-18" of penetration ideal to incapacitation of a human target.

Yeah, I read that. It's pretty wishy-washy. He never says anything about varmint rounds, specifically, but he does endorse 55-60gr. soft-points.

Anyway, my point is more about bullet weight than design. Given that the Hornady 55gr bullet is similar to the 75gr bullet, wouldn't the faster moving 55gr bullet expand better? I'm assuming that if Hornady is selling it as "personal defense" ammo, then it's designed to be a man-stopper (not a varmint round).

Teach me,

Ben

RogerinTPA
08-05-08, 16:00
I hate to defer to TOS, but someone did quite the review on the various brands of 75 grain Hornady and TAP http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=387471 and the new 75 grain Wolf (with frag test) http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=387400. It's a good read.

Damascus
08-05-08, 20:03
Exactly. The Hornady TAP 55gr. Blitzking round is designed as a tactical/home defense round, but is loaded with a very popular varmint bullet : the 55 gr. Sierra Blitzking.
All soft points are not created equal... think of it this way: A thug breaks into your home. You grab your AR, and head towards the noise, and find him with a weapon standing in a part of the house that overpenetration could potentially injure or kill an innocent person... Would you rather be loaded with 55gr. varmint rounds, or 55 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claws or Sierra GameKings? Or even Nosler Partitions vs. Nosler Ballistic Tips.
Of course, these varmint rounds DO expand violently, abruptly, almost upon impact... and when compared with something that would penetrate to the vitals before expanding, like the 12"-18" of optimal penetration that decodeddiesel pointed out, the penetrating rounds DO work better in a combat environment, and would in turn "kill" better... BUT, for home defense purposes in urban situations, I know no man who could take a close range center mass shot with a 55gr. Varmint round and continue to fight (notice I never recommend the use of anything lighter than 55gr.). Even though these rounds may not penetrate 12"-18", they'll still inflict a very nasty wound, especially at close range, and would stop an unarmored target rather efficiently, IMHO.
All this being said, I don't live in an urban setting, and leave my rifles loaded with 69gr. Matchking BTHP handloads... which would most definitely leave exit wounds... but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a mag loaded with 55gr. Blitzkings, V-Max's, or Ballistic Tips. Just my 2 cents.

decodeddiesel
08-06-08, 10:42
I know no man who could take a close range center mass shot with a 55gr. Varmint round and continue to fight (notice I never recommend the use of anything lighter than 55gr.).

This kid did just that, multiple times:

http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf

This argument has been hashed out over and over again. I also hate to link to TOS, but here it is
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

And while I hate to quote it, hopefully by doing so I will garner some more interest in the article and get people to read it:

Dr. Roberts: "While some people question the 12" penetration limit, it is not subject to discussion in this article. The FBI is deemed to be more knowledgeable than most, and it is backed up my, Dr. Martin Fackler's, and others who have spent their life discussing the subject. Duncan McPherson, in his book "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma" actually argues that 15" is not an unrealistic requirement a bullet should obtain. He does point out, however, that 11.5" of penetration shouldn't completely disqualify a bullet from being acceptable either. While 12" should be a minimum requirement, 18" is the approximate maximum desired penetration depth. Beyond that, and the bullet is likely to exit the intended target and retain enough energy to cause others harm if a person should be in the line of fire. Obviously you should never take the shot if you're not sure of what's beyond your target and rely on your ammunition to do your job of being prudent."

Bimmer, I am not here to defend Dr. Roberts (and ergo Dr. Fackler) but suffice to say they are probably the most knowledgeable people in the USA on the subject of terminal ballistics. When they recommend or discredit a round or projectile I tend to listen.

I'll leave it at this, if you feel more comfortable using the 55gr Varmint type rounds in a self defense application then by all means use them. Just be aware no matter what round you choose for the task if it has the ability to penetrate and incapacitate a human body then it has more than enough energy to pass through a wall or 2 and injure or kill anyone on the other side of that wall. Also by using thin jacketed light varmint type rounds you are leaving some terminal performance on the table which you would otherwise gain by the use of the proven heavy OTM rounds.

Bimmer
08-06-08, 13:32
I get it. I don't want to use varmint grenades or frangible rounds as self-defense ammunition. The negative example is a 40gr. .223 round....

I'm talking about something like the 55gr Hornady TAP, which was presumably designed (and is certainly marketed) as a man-stopper. Are you saying that this round doesn't penetrate adequately?

Ben

decodeddiesel
08-06-08, 14:35
I get it. I don't want to use varmint grenades or frangible rounds as self-defense ammunition. The negative example is a 40gr. .223 round....

I'm talking about something like the 55gr Hornady TAP, which was presumably designed (and is certainly marketed) as a man-stopper. Are you saying that this round doesn't penetrate adequately?

Ben

If you look at a cross section of a 55gr "V-Max" TAP projectile compared to something like an M193 or M855 you see that not only is the copper in the jacket is MUCH thinner but the whole integrity of the round is compromised my the big chunk of jacket missing at the front of the round which is replaced by a plastic plug. This causes the round to violently fragment within the first inch or 2 of penetration which is favorable, however the projectile is so fragile that nearly all of the fragments are these tiny little chunks of lead and copper, there is little to no heavier pieces to continue penetrating through the tissue to the desired 12" - 18". I know Hornady markets these rounds as for "self defense applications" but it has been proven time and time again in ballistic testing that they just are not as effective against a human target as many others. Once again, I hate to drop a TOS link but:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=185

Really good stuff from Dr. Roberts and "Troy" in this link.




Loads To Avoid

Anything loaded with a varmint bullet; all varmint bullets in this caliber will underpenetrate from all guns. This means NO VMax bullets (including TAP loads), NO Nosler/Combined Technologies "Ballistic Tip" bullets, and so on. Varmint bullets were designed for animals no larger than 60 lbs., with the lighter bullets being designed for even smaller animals. They are NOT combat bullets, regardless of marketing to the contrary.

RogerinTPA
08-06-08, 14:42
I get it. I don't want to use varmint grenades or frangible rounds as self-defense ammunition. The negative example is a 40gr. .223 round....

I'm talking about something like the 55gr Hornady TAP, which was presumably designed (and is certainly marketed) as a man-stopper. Are you saying that this round doesn't penetrate adequately?

Ben

Not trying to get argumentative so don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like you're going to choose based on what you heard/believe and empirical scientific fact/truth be damned. A simple glance at the poll doesn't give Knowledgeable folks a lot of faith in your selection (6 %). I recommend that you stop looking for validation of your choice/mindset and buy the 55 gr Hornady TAP or Extreme Shock, which says it will blow bowling ball sized cavities in assorted farm animals or what every you think is best and be happy. Also, check out the ammo oracle http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ for another good read on ballistic performance, IF, you haven't already.

Bimmer
08-06-08, 19:35
Thanks, RHarris. I know enough about terminal ballistics of pistol cartridges, and I understand the basics of rifle cartridges, but the 5.56/.223 is a bit of an anomaly compared to them.

I'm going to order some 5.56 TAP right now...

Ben

PYRO31888
08-06-08, 22:26
I chose other and my choice is 'Power Shok' because cheaper than dirt sells it for $17 for 20 rounds when Walmart sells it for $8 for 20 rounds.

Bimmer
08-07-08, 00:43
Not trying to get argumentative so don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like you're going to choose based on what you heard/believe and empirical scientific fact/truth be damned. A simple glance at the poll doesn't give Knowledgeable folks a lot of faith in your selection (6 %). I recommend that you stop looking for validation of your choice/mindset and buy the 55 gr Hornady TAP or Extreme Shock, which says it will blow bowling ball sized cavities in assorted farm animals or what every you think is best and be happy. Also, check out the ammo oracle http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ for another good read on ballistic performance, IF, you haven't already.

Hi RHarris,

We're crossing posts, so I didn't see this 'til after I posted my last post...

I'm a newbie to rifle rounds, and I'm not basing what I think on voodoo. After years of homework on pistol rounds, I learned (or I thought I did) that in pistol calibers the problem was failure to expand and over-penetration.

9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP bullets typically were simply not moving fast enough to make them expand when they hit something. The results were nice neat holes and bad guys that kept coming.
The solution seemed to be relatively light/fast bullets, which expanded (and stopped bad guys) more consistently (like 135gr. in 40S&W). Underpenetration doesn't seem to have been a concern with relatively heavy and slow pistol rounds.

So, I figured that the same was true of 5.56 rounds, but that's obviously not right. Reading all this, it makes sense to me that 55gr. is simply too light a round to use on people-sized targets.

I'm learning. This is why I'm here.

Ben

Battl3fr0nt
08-07-08, 06:26
I would go with 55 or 62.. I really dont think it would matter at all to the person you are shooting at..

RogerinTPA
08-07-08, 14:54
We're all here to learn Ben and the reason I started this thread. There is no "wonder bullet" to cover all scenarios. Some come close, but there are trade offs for every choice. Welcome to M4C.


Hi RHarris,

We're crossing posts, so I didn't see this 'til after I posted my last post...

I'm a newbie to rifle rounds, and I'm not basing what I think on voodoo. After years of homework on pistol rounds, I learned (or I thought I did) that in pistol calibers the problem was failure to expand and over-penetration.

9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP bullets typically were simply not moving fast enough to make them expand when they hit something. The results were nice neat holes and bad guys that kept coming.
The solution seemed to be relatively light/fast bullets, which expanded (and stopped bad guys) more consistently (like 135gr. in 40S&W). Underpenetration doesn't seem to have been a concern with relatively heavy and slow pistol rounds.

So, I figured that the same was true of 5.56 rounds, but that's obviously not right. Reading all this, it makes sense to me that 55gr. is simply too light a round to use on people-sized targets.

I'm learning. This is why I'm here.

Ben

Damascus
08-07-08, 15:46
Nice read. That first link, about the officer involved shooting corroborates what I said, it says on there that, according to the officers involved, "resulted in the belief that the .40S&W failed and .223 ammunition saved the day".. Of ALL the .40 S&W rounds fired, not ONE of them penetrated over 1"!!! That just blows my MIND! I've always had a dislike for the .40 S&W, as I believe that it drove the 10mm Auto to an early grave, and the 10mm Auto is probably one of the best "man stoppers" that's ever been developed for an auto pistol. These .40's were all loaded with 180gr. Speer Gold Dots - and we all know that Gold Dots are PROVEN rounds... apparently the sectional density, BC, and overall velocity achieved by the .40 S&W is just plain weak. If those officers had been armed with .45 ACP, .357 Sig, 10mm Auto, or even 9mm +P, I'm sure the results would have been a lot different. Fast, light bullets generally work best in pistols, like the most famous man-stopper load out there, the .357 Magnum w/ 125 gr. JHP's.
As for the officers with the M4's, you can see that most of the rounds exited the man's body, those must have been the 77gr. TAPs, and the 55gr. TAPs remained in the chest, and man, did you see that foot??? Now that's tissue damage!
As I said earlier, the 55gr. Varmint loads, like the 55gr. TAP load, is not the BEST .223/5.56 round for combat - but it is a good combination between power and penetration, and works well for crowded or urban scenarios.
As for the perp taking so many hits before stopping, is nothing to do with the .223's performance, it's due to the officers' lack of optimal shot placement. One .40 S&W hit the perp right in the neck, which should've killed him, but alas, it only penetrated 1", and the medical examiner stated that ALL wounds that were inflicted by the .40 were NOT life threatening... that's pretty disconcerting, as the rounds were fired from only 20 feet away... Notice none of the .223 rounds hit any vital areas, mid-torso, neck, or head. The shot that finally killed him was a .223 to the back of the head.
No one should feel undergunned with a .223/5.56, unless they're a terrible shot LOL... if you are a bad shot, go ahead and get a .308 or better yet, a 12 ga. lol ;)

TroyTK
08-08-08, 13:03
Nice read. That first link, about the officer involved shooting corroborates what I said, it says on there that, according to the officers involved, "resulted in the belief that the .40S&W failed and .223 ammunition saved the day".. Of ALL the .40 S&W rounds fired, not ONE of them penetrated over 1"!!!

??

That link says the exact opposite actually! It states that the investigation shows that the .40 Gold Dots performed as they should, and that the 1 inch of penetration stuff is myth based upon a faulty autopsy report.

Hopefully I am misinterpreting what you wrote in this quote, because it looks to me that you have completely missed the conclusions of the FBI report.

Damascus
08-08-08, 14:05
That whole thing is just a chaotic, unbelievable, all-out mess. I only read the first link, which said the rounds didn't penetrate more than 1"... which blew my mind.
None of us, not the writers of that article, really will know what happened that day, as none of us were there... But it's still obvious that bad shot placement made that incident very bad, regardless of caliber or bullet.
Bottom line, if you want a good combat round that will penetrate, get a heavier round, between 62 and 77 gr, and if you want to reduce the possibility of overpenetration due to bystanders or neighborhood, use a lighter, faster expanding round, like a Blitzking, V-Max, Ballistic Tip, etc, that's at least over 50 gr., preferably 55gr, IMO. I will continue to keep my duty rifle loaded with match grade handloads loaded with 69gr. BTHP Matchkings, which aren't controlled expansion nor ballistic tips. From the testing I've performed, they penetrate 8-12" before fragmenting when fired at close range ( >100 yds), and penetrate without fragmenting very deeply at 150 yds.+, while expanding somewhat. That's all the performance I need in my duty rifle... I keep these rounds loaded for accuracy performance more than wound performance, as I believe that shot placement is more important than bullet type will ever be.
I'm not saying my opinions and methods are the best, I'm just saying that they are what I stick to, and they work for me. Just my 2 cents.

RogerinTPA
08-13-08, 20:04
Amazing story indeed. You never know what will happen in a gunfight, which reinforces the old adage of "Shoot him to the floor".;)



That whole thing is just a chaotic, unbelievable, all-out mess. I only read the first link, which said the rounds didn't penetrate more than 1"... which blew my mind.
None of us, not the writers of that article, really will know what happened that day, as none of us were there... But it's still obvious that bad shot placement made that incident very bad, regardless of caliber or bullet.
Bottom line, if you want a good combat round that will penetrate, get a heavier round, between 62 and 77 gr, and if you want to reduce the possibility of overpenetration due to bystanders or neighborhood, use a lighter, faster expanding round, like a Blitzking, V-Max, Ballistic Tip, etc, that's at least over 50 gr., preferably 55gr, IMO. I will continue to keep my duty rifle loaded with match grade handloads loaded with 69gr. BTHP Matchkings, which aren't controlled expansion nor ballistic tips. From the testing I've performed, they penetrate 8-12" before fragmenting when fired at close range ( >100 yds), and penetrate without fragmenting very deeply at 150 yds.+, while expanding somewhat. That's all the performance I need in my duty rifle... I keep these rounds loaded for accuracy performance more than wound performance, as I believe that shot placement is more important than bullet type will ever be.
I'm not saying my opinions and methods are the best, I'm just saying that they are what I stick to, and they work for me. Just my 2 cents.

RogerinTPA
08-27-08, 21:01
DocGKR,

Any news on the ammo testing you guys are conducting yet?

Steve Moses
10-06-08, 20:31
My department used W-W Ranger 55-grain SPs for entry purposes for awhile. We changed after I shot a smallish wild pig (about 75 pounds) thru the shoulder. During the subsequent autopsy (OK, field dressing), I was somewhat surprised, or more like disappointed, to find that the the bullet went to pieces upon striking a rib. There was a about a 3" section of missing bone at the entry, and damage to the onside lung was minimal.
I know one such incident does not make the rule, but I would follow Doc Robert's lead, and use something that penetrates well even for home defense use.

RogerinTPA
10-06-08, 21:35
My department used W-W Ranger 55-grain SPs for entry purposes for awhile. We changed after I shot a smallish wild pig (about 75 pounds) thru the shoulder. During the subsequent autopsy (OK, field dressing), I was somewhat surprised, or more like disappointed, to find that the the bullet went to pieces upon striking a rib. There was a about a 3" section of missing bone at the entry, and damage to the onside lung was minimal.
I know one such incident does not make the rule, but I would follow Doc Robert's lead, and use something that penetrates well even for home defense use.

So Steve, what round did your department end up going with?

babaracus
10-06-08, 21:52
rharris, please forgive me if you've already checked it out, but here is a 5.56 duty load post (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881) by Dr. Roberts in the new Terminal Ballistics Forum (https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91).

JWNathan
10-06-08, 21:53
My choice was the 55 gr. tap only because I know it will shoot fine in both my ar(1-7 twist) and my Remy 7615(1-9 twist). If I wasnt concerned with possible long range use with my 7615(coyotes at the back fence line 187 yards), then it would be the 75 gr. TAP or my 75 gr. handloads out of an AR.
-Jesse

RogerinTPA
10-06-08, 22:06
rharris, please forgive me if you've already checked it out, but here is a 5.56 duty load post (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881) by Dr. Roberts in the new Terminal Ballistics Forum (https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91).

I spent quite a while reading the entire forum. It's a good read, thanks. I was curious in what Steve's department chose as their duty round.