AR reloads not going into battery - case lube issue?

[Maineshooter]

I spent some time at the range today and got the AR out (Colt 6920) to try out some reloads I had made with a new powder. They were mid range loads using AA2230 and pushing Hornady 55gr fmjs just over 2800 fps.

After twenty to thirty rounds or so I started getting some failure to fire issues - rounds not going into battery all the way. I also really had to yank on the charging handle to get a couple of them dislodged. I was concerned enough to stop shooting at that point.

These were all FL sized and from what I can determine without a case gauge all in spec. I am going double check the head-spacing on the cartridges later, but based on past results with my reloading setup (zero issues) I really don't think this is the problem.

I noticed a couple of things: 1. A lot of carbon on the ejected rounds that did not fire. (The gun was not pristine but not really dirty either and was well lubed). 2. The rounds felt greasy. I had been using a Hornady wax type case lube (like Imperial) and I did not tumble the rounds after loading. I have never bothered tumbling loaded rounds, but I am also fairly new to ARs, hence I am new to reloading for them.

This got me wondering if it is possible for excess case lube to cook off in the chamber like I am told the lacquer on some steel cased cartridges will.

Has anybody had this happen due to the case lube? I feel kind of silly thinking that lube of any type would do this, but I am just dumb enough to ask the question in an open forum.

Any input would be appreciated.

[Clint]

You probably didn't bump the shoulder back enough.

IIRC, it should be bumped back .004" for an auto loader like the AR.

This is more than needed for a bolt gun with their high bolt locking leverage.

The fail to lock and difficulty extracting both point to a shoulder/headspace issue.

[Maineshooter]

You probably didn't bump the shoulder back enough.

IIRC, it should be bumped back .004" for an auto loader like the AR.

This is more than needed for a bolt gun with their high bolt locking leverage.

The fail to lock and difficulty extracting both point to a shoulder/headspace issue.

You could very well be right - and I definitely will be checking the head-space. I had convinced myself that wasn't it because of the previous couple of hundred that I loaded worked perfectly and the problems seemed to emerge after I had put about a full magazine through with no issues. Then out of nowhere it started happening.

I appreciate your reply.

[thopkins22]

$10 says your cases aren't properly sized.

The easy answer is to get a case gauge...often time screwing the die down till it touches the shell holder isn't really enough, it needs to go further and the ram will take up extra slack in the machine feeling like you're closing a cam. You really need a case gauge or comparator(I think is what the Hornady thing is called) to do that.

While excess case lube certainly could cause pressure issues, I have to believe that you'd see dimples after resizing from hydraulic pressure before you got to the point where it either wouldn't chamber or would show pressure signs...I fail to see how it could size the brass in a FL die(almost certainly designed to size to minimum specs) without dimpling the brass visibly and then be enough to cause issues in a Colt chamber.

FYI, Dillon case lube(either purchased or home brewed) rules them all.

[ShootinRN]

I've run into this while loading mixed head stamped brass I have and have figured it to be a certain stamp of brass. I noticed they would not sound the same when chambered and when I went to eject them I had to mortar some of them to get them out of the chamber.

I think the other poster has it figured out and maybe it's time to adjust my sizing die a bit to accommodate the difference if possible.

[Maineshooter]

$10 says your cases aren't properly sized.

The easy answer is to get a case gauge...often time screwing the die down till it touches the shell holder isn't really enough, it needs to go further and the ram will take up extra slack in the machine feeling like you're closing a cam. You really need a case gauge or comparator(I think is what the Hornady thing is called) to do that.

While excess case lube certainly could cause pressure issues, I have to believe that you'd see dimples after resizing from hydraulic pressure before you got to the point where it either wouldn't chamber or would show pressure signs...I fail to see how it could size the brass in a FL die(almost certainly designed to size to minimum specs) without dimpling the brass visibly and then be enough to cause issues in a Colt chamber.

FYI, Dillon case lube(either purchased or home brewed) rules them all.

I'm leaning toward bumping the shoulder back more at this point myself. I actually have a set of the Hornady comparators somewhere, but they are a PITA to measure a bunch of cases with. They are really more for setting the dies up. I looked for a decent case gauge for over a month during the "madness" and couldn't find one in stock anywhere. Time to look again.

When fl sizing for semi autos I have always screwed the die down to the shell holder and then go at least another 1/4 turn. Another poster mentioned brass of a certain headstamp being an issue - it could be that certain cases out of the mixed lot I was using just didn't size down enough to to differences in the metal.

[1_click_off]

Like stated above, the head spacing seems to be the issue.

The thing I wanted to touch on was still having the lube on your cases. This causes extra stress on your bolt. The case should swell in the chamber and seal off the gases. If you have lube on the case the case still swells and fills any voids, but the case will start to extract earlier because it does not grip the chamber. The bolt face takes more stress, the round extracts faster and that might be where you carbon build up is coming from.

[Eric D.]

In tune with everyone else, stuck cases/failure to go into battery are classic signs of cases that weren't sized back enough.

1. Not all dies will touch the shell plate when properly set up. Dillon's .223 sizing dies, for example, do not.

2. Hornady's comparator tool is the best I know of for setting up a sizing die and measuring sized and fired cases. Case gages may easily pick out some obscenely over/undersized cases but for everything in between you really need a good eye or a magnifying glass. The difference between the high and low steps on Dillon's 5.56/.223 case gage is only 0.005"

3. I have also noticed a difference in sizing from one headstamp to another - as much +/-0.003" The amount of lube you use will also affect sizing.

[DonovanM]

In tune with everyone else, stuck cases/failure to go into battery are classic signs of cases that weren't sized back enough.

1. Not all dies will touch the shell plate when properly set up. Dillon's .223 sizing dies, for example, do not.


I size 223 cases on a Dillon 650, and the carbide FL sizing die from them that I use most definitely touches the shellplate - I set up for just a touch of the "camming" action just for the best consistency. This will size a case to be as near as makes no difference perfectly flush with the bottom step of their case gage each and every time (I case gage every round, and have loaded around 20k).

Perhaps it depends on the kind of press you're using - noteably the thickness of the shellplate.

[DonovanM]

FYI, Dillon case lube(either purchased or home brewed) rules them all.

Yucky. I handle each and every round off my press and that stuff leaves the worst residue on my fingers. Sticky and waxy. Also I find powder and other gunk gets stuck on the outside of the case more often than I'd like.

I far and away prefer Hornady One Shot.

[DonovanM]

Like stated above, the head spacing seems to be the issue.

The thing I wanted to touch on was still having the lube on your cases. This causes extra stress on your bolt. The case should swell in the chamber and seal off the gases. If you have lube on the case the case still swells and fills any voids, but the case will start to extract earlier because it does not grip the chamber. The bolt face takes more stress, the round extracts faster and that might be where you carbon build up is coming from.

Can you say more about this? I've never heard of this being the case, and I leave my case lube on, so more info would be appreciated. Thanks.

If anything I always thought leaving the case lube on would do nothing but help feeding and extraction, as long as it doesn't build up and/or burn off, and especially in the case of a head separation.

[T2C]

I ran into this issue with both semi-automatics and bolt action rifles when I first starting reloading rifle ammunition. A case gauge is worth it's weight in gold when checking loaded ammunition. If it won't fit in the case gauge, it may not feed in your rifle.

If the brass was not fired out of a particular rifle, the reload may not chamber in it without using a small base die. When loading rifle ammunition, I will check the sized and trimmed brass with a case gauge before priming and reloading. If it won't go into the case gauge, I run it through the sizing die again.

Some brass will spring back and requires more than one pass through the sizing die.

I agree with 0.004" of setback of the shoulder when loading ammunition for a semi-automatic rifle. It's worked well for me.

[polymorpheous]

You need this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-223-remington

I don't understand why you wouldn't be using one.
It is a critical tool for reloading.

[bigmerv]

When I first started reloading a few years ago I had this exact same problem, and it was indeed because I didn't tumble the lube off of brass. Tumbled some loaded rounds and bam, everything in the world was right again.

[Magelk]

I noticed a couple of things: 1. A lot of carbon on the ejected rounds that did not fire. (The gun was not pristine but not really dirty either and was well lubed). 2. The rounds felt greasy. I had been using a Hornady wax type case lube (like Imperial) and I did not tumble the rounds after loading. I have never bothered tumbling loaded rounds, but I am also fairly new to ARs, hence I am new to reloading for them.

This got me wondering if it is possible for excess case lube to cook off in the chamber like I am told the lacquer on some steel cased cartridges will. The lacquer thing is a myth.

Has anybody had this happen due to the case lube? I feel kind of silly thinking that lube of any type would do this, but I am just dumb enough to ask the question in an open forum.

Any input would be appreciated.


Like stated above, the head spacing seems to be the issue.

The thing I wanted to touch on was still having the lube on your cases. This causes extra stress on your bolt. The case should swell in the chamber and seal off the gases. If you have lube on the case the case still swells and fills any voids, but the case will start to extract earlier because it does not grip the chamber. The bolt face takes more stress, the round extracts faster and that might be where you carbon build up is coming from.THIS!


Can you say more about this? I've never heard of this being the case, and I leave my case lube on, so more info would be appreciated. Thanks.

If anything I always thought leaving the case lube on would do nothing but help feeding and extraction,I don't think that's a good idea. as long as it doesn't build up and/or burn off, and especially in the case of a head separation.

I believe Ackley did some testing in the 50s, lubing rounds and blew some rifles apart.

What I believe is going on with the op is, lube is baking on in his chamber along with carbon.

Remove lube from reloaded rounds and do your headspacing stuff like everyone said and your problem will go away.

[anachronism]

It could also be a case length issue. Are you trimming your cases, and making sure they're always in spec? It doesn't sound like it since you're loading fully progressive. I ended up tumbling my cases, then lubing them and sizing them in my single-stage press. Then I'd tumble them again, and run them through my Gracey trimmer. I'd do thousands at a time, then I'd have clean, sized & trimmed brass ready to load at all times. To load, I'd set up the Dillon but use a universal decapping die on the first stage to make certain there was no tumbling media in the flash hole. The ammo comes out clean and ready to go in the box. I also wear rubber gloves when reloading to keep my paw prints off the cases. It sounds fussy, but there are really good reasons for each step.

[Maineshooter]

It could also be a case length issue. Are you trimming your cases, and making sure they're always in spec? It doesn't sound like it since you're loading fully progressive. I ended up tumbling my cases, then lubing them and sizing them in my single-stage press. Then I'd tumble them again, and run them through my Gracey trimmer. I'd do thousands at a time, then I'd have clean, sized & trimmed brass ready to load at all times. To load, I'd set up the Dillon but use a universal decapping die on the first stage to make certain there was no tumbling media in the flash hole. The ammo comes out clean and ready to go in the box. I also wear rubber gloves when reloading to keep my paw prints off the cases. It sounds fussy, but there are really good reasons for each step.

Cases were all in spec. as far as length. I don't load fully progressive. I tumble after the range, then re-size and decap. The cases then go to a Wilson case trimmer set up below the max cartridge length. These particular cases were all once fired and all run through the trimmer.

[Maineshooter]

You need this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-223-remington

I don't understand why you wouldn't be using one.
It is a critical tool for reloading.

If I could have gotten one I would have. They had been out of stock everywhere. I generally use Hornady cartridge head space gauges when setting up the equipment - but I don't check each and every loaded round with it.

[Maineshooter]

THIS!



I believe Ackley did some testing in the 50s, lubing rounds and blew some rifles apart.

What I believe is going on with the op is, lube is baking on in his chamber along with carbon.

That was my first thought when I posted this. I have read some of Ackley's stuff but had not heard of this testing until now.

I still have at least a hundred of these rounds left with the excess lube on them. I have never had an issue with this lube with bolt guns but I actually sized these on a very hot day in my garage. Just wiping them down with a cloth after was obviously not enough.

I'm going to tumble them off and check the cartridge headspacing this week. I'll let everyone know what happened.

Thanks for the replies.

[CrazyFingers]

I generally use Hornady cartridge head space gauges when setting up the equipment - but I don't check each and every loaded round with it.

I have an L.E. Wilson case gauge for .223, 9mm, and .45. Every single round that comes off my press gets checked, and what doesn't pass goes in the crap bin. While there aren't many, there are enough for it to be worth it for me.

[polymorpheous]

They are in stock right now at Midway.
Totally worth it.

[shootist~]

OP - Just as a memo, if you drop a primer from an unfired round you can end up with powder in the chamber. This will result in fat bullet type failures as you described.

But for reliability:
1). Size your brass in a separate step and clean off the lube before loading.

2). Use a Case Gauge to set up your sizer - and check often. Including when you change lubes, switch brands of brass, or when sizing older case hardened brass.

[Maineshooter]

It's looking like it was a case lube issue, in that I believe the lube was baking off. I remember when I re-sized those rounds it was in my garage where I have a single stage set up just for that purpose. It was hotter than hell that day and the case lube was way softer than it usually is. Evidently I did a half-assed job of wiping them off as they still felt a little greasy at the range.

I dug out the Hornady cartridge headspace gauges tonight and measured the remainder of the reloads. They were all in spec with factory ammo as far as shoulder setback. In fact, a couple of them had shoulders pushed back .001 more than factor ammo (Federal Tactical). I even checked another bunch of re-sized cases I did at a different time and they were all right on.

I can't think of anything other than the lube baking off at this point, though I certainly will be getting the Wilson case gauge since they are in stock now.


THIS!



I believe Ackley did some testing in the 50s, lubing rounds and blew some rifles apart.

What I believe is going on with the op is, lube is baking on in his chamber along with carbon.

Remove lube from reloaded rounds and do your headspacing stuff like everyone said and your problem will go away.

[Shotdown]

My range pick up brass doesn't all size the same. My die is set to bump the shoulder back .004. Some brass, like LC, will only bump back .002. So far, that has been working for me.

I don't tumble after reloading either but I do used a rag to wipe the rounds down.

[Airhasz]

My range pick up brass doesn't all size the same. My die is set to bump the shoulder back .004. Some brass, like LC, will only bump back .002. So far, that has been working for me.

I don't tumble after reloading either but I do used a rag to wipe the rounds down.


Like the other poster said, it's easier and more efficient to tumble again after sizing than to wipe each case down with a rag. Using lizard bedding for tumble media is cheaper and it does not get stuck in the primer holes. Wiping lube from 1K cases is work, letting tumbler do it for you is the way to go.

[T2C]

It's looking like it was a case lube issue, in that I believe the lube was baking off. I remember when I re-sized those rounds it was in my garage where I have a single stage set up just for that purpose. It was hotter than hell that day and the case lube was way softer than it usually is. Evidently I did a half-assed job of wiping them off as they still felt a little greasy at the range.

I dug out the Hornady cartridge headspace gauges tonight and measured the remainder of the reloads. They were all in spec with factory ammo as far as shoulder setback. In fact, a couple of them had shoulders pushed back .001 more than factor ammo (Federal Tactical). I even checked another bunch of re-sized cases I did at a different time and they were all right on.

I can't think of anything other than the lube baking off at this point, though I certainly will be getting the Wilson case gauge since they are in stock now.

Glad to hear your got it sorted out. I will add this to my troubleshooting list of remedies.

I do like some others have suggested and wipe the case lube off of each cartridge with a clean rag before I check them with the case gauge. I did not realize that I was eliminating the chance for another problem by doing this.

It's suppose to rain today. Time to do a little reloading.

[G woody]

I've reloaded for 40+ years. I've never considered not cleaning the lube from resized cases. You can tumble or wipe but never leave the lube on. You will, in addition to causing the problems described,by leaving the lube on the cases increases the setback pressure on the bolt upon firing because the slick brass isn't grabbing onto the chamber wall during combustion.

[Failure2Stop]

I've reloaded for 40+ years. I've never considered not cleaning the lube from resized cases. You can tumble or wipe but never leave the lube on. You will, in addition to causing the problems described,by leaving the lube on the cases increases the setback pressure on the bolt upon firing because the slick brass isn't grabbing onto the chamber wall during combustion.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=135551&highlight=lube

[StrikerFired]

You need this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-223-remington

I don't understand why you wouldn't be using one.
It is a critical tool for reloading.

Just ordered it, I'm having the same feeding/ftf problem as the OP so this tread caught my attention. Saw the product and wanted to say thanks for pointing this out.

[T2C]

I've reloaded for 40+ years. I've never considered not cleaning the lube from resized cases. You can tumble or wipe but never leave the lube on. You will, in addition to causing the problems described,by leaving the lube on the cases increases the setback pressure on the bolt upon firing because the slick brass isn't grabbing onto the chamber wall during combustion.


So long as there is not so much lube that it causes a bore obstruction, I don't understand how it could cause a problem. Can you point me to an article written by an experienced gunsmith or manufacturer that studied this phenomenon?

I always wipe down loaded rifle cartridges, so the case lube does not attract dirt during storage or make a mess of my ammunition boxes. I do however apply a generous amount of lube to my AR-15 rifles and carbines and have done so without any consequences. Some lube drips down, but I do not apply lube directly to the cartridges or magazines though.



OP,

If you are using case lube similar to bees wax, I can see where that might cause more issues than the spray on lube if you don't wipe down loaded cartridges.

[thopkins22]

So long as there is not so much lube that it causes a bore obstruction, I don't understand how it could cause a problem.

It can't for the reasons you stated. And certainly not in low enough volume that it wouldn't hydraulically dent the cases during resizing.

There may be an article on it, but there are also articles talking about DPMS being quality and all other sorts of nonsense. What there isn't(that I've ever seen) is any kind of actual proof...whereas I have seen proof that obscenely large amounts of oil doesn't do anything negative beyond make a mess.

[T2C]

It can't for the reasons you stated. And certainly not in low enough volume that it wouldn't hydraulically dent the cases during resizing.

There may be an article on it, but there are also articles talking about DPMS being quality and all other sorts of nonsense. What there isn't(that I've ever seen) is any kind of actual proof...whereas I have seen proof that obscenely large amounts of oil doesn't do anything negative beyond make a mess.

I have been reloading for over 30 years, but still have a lot to learn. I haven't seen or read any proof myself.

[Shotdown]

Like the other poster said, it's easier and more efficient to tumble again after sizing than to wipe each case down with a rag. Using lizard bedding for tumble media is cheaper and it does not get stuck in the primer holes. Wiping lube from 1K cases is work, letting tumbler do it for you is the way to go.

Yeah I don't do 1K at a time. More power to you if you do. I reload enough for a 3-gun match. However, I would definitely tumble if I was doing that much at a time.

[GSPKurt]

Lube the bolt carrier group, and run it wet. Try this first.

[bigedp51]

I prefer the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge for two reasons, a dial or digital gauge is very easy to read. And once you have the Hornady gage you do not need to buy a gauge for every caliber you have.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge002_zpsc597686b.jpg

I now use my Wilson case gauges as paper weights and pen holders. :lol:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/penholder_zps6580345c.jpg

And some of you need to do a little reading, oil or grease in the chamber or on the ammunition can nearly double the bolt thrust on your bolt. Any excess oil or grease forced out of the chamber and into the bore or if any oil or grease is still in the bore it will cause a pressure spike and increased chamber pressures to dangerous levels.

Below is from the Sierra reloading manual

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/0048a-1.jpg

Below is from the Lyman reloading manual.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lyman1a-1.jpg

Below is from the United States Army.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube-1.jpg

And below is from the Springfield Armory

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage1.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage8.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage24.jpg

When you pull the trigger the firing pin hits the primer and pushes the cartridge case forward until the shoulder of the case contacts the shoulder area of the chamber. The cartridge then goes bang and the chamber pressure builds and holds the cartridge case tight against the chamber walls. As chamber pressure builds the primer is forced out of the primer pocket and moves to the rear until it contacts the bolt face. As the chamber pressure builds even further the brass stretches to meet the bolt face. This entire action above reduces the force applied to the bolt and the length of time it is applied to the bolt face. If oil or grease is in the chamber the cartridge case can not grip the chamber walls and the force or thrust delivered to the bolt face is nearly doubled along with the amount of time this force is applied to the bolt face.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/HeadClearance_zps03634b1b.gif

This is one of the reasons the headspace is longer on military firearms, it reduces the thrust applied to the bolt face and delivers less wear and tear to the rifle.

[T2C]

I can understand where the "do not oil cartridges" advice came from. Most who have fired military semi-automatic rifles in service rifle matches over the past 40 years know that the first round fired out of a magazine will often impact somewhere on the target away from the rest of the group created by the remaining cartridges. This is a matter of chambering a round by manual battery versus live fire battery.

Many years ago, when the M1 Garand was prevalent and the M-14 was relatively new it was thought that by oiling the first round in the magazine or clip, the POI of the first shot would be closer to the group. This method worked up to a point, but it caused over pressure conditions on some rifles. A few rifles detonated, which caused concern and the inclusion of the warning in the M-14 handbook and reloading manuals.

[bigedp51]

The first round fired (cold bore shot) normally impacts to a different point from a clean barrel because it burns off any residual bore cleaners or oil in the bore. Once the bore is fouled and conditioned the subsequent rounds will have the same POI. The oil in the chamber and bore effects barrel vibrations and thus accuracy effecting the POI.

[thopkins22]

And some of you need to do a little reading, oil or grease in the chamber or on the ammunition can nearly double the bolt thrust on your bolt. Any excess oil or grease forced out of the chamber and into the bore or if any oil or grease is still in the bore it will cause a pressure spike and increased chamber pressures to dangerous levels.

None of those things makes it so nor provide any proof. Sure it will raise pressures, but so will a few degrees on the thermometer. Just a few years ago it was an accepted "fact" that placing your magazine on the ground in the prone would cause a malfunction. It was a fact that firearms were finicky about lubrication and that AR's needed lots of cleaning to run well. Hell for a brief period of time it was accepted on this very forum by very senior and well schooled members as fact that USGI magazines were far inferior to HK magazines. There are lots of things that people accepted as fact, that upon being put to the test turned out to either not be true, or grossly exaggerated.

I for one, am not going to worry that rounds have picked up wholesome amounts of lube off the BCG nor gotten sprayed in the mag from the first few shots suppressed. I don't think anyone else should either.

From the link F2S posted

A well lubed BCG is going to permit a decent amount of lube to spray/splash/drip/wipe onto the rounds waiting in the magazine. Same with a well lubed machinegun. Given that we see no spike in kBs with well lubed guns, I have to cast a skeptical eye toward the phenomenon unless lube quantity is greatly exceeding practical use.

I further have a strong suspicion that avoiding lubrication of cartridges dates back to chemicals and cartridge construction that would deaden powders and primers over time, and having no recent compulsion to reverse the practice for any practical necessity.

In my short time I have seen many sacred cows led to slaughter. There should be no personal emotional attachment to this topic, only data; and there is little data to support the conventional wisdom, at least not with contemporary systems.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.


Also, why didn't these guns explode? http://youtu.be/O9Vzl2-228Y

[T2C]

The first round fired (cold bore shot) normally impacts to a different point from a clean barrel because it burns off any residual bore cleaners or oil in the bore. Once the bore is fouled and conditioned the subsequent rounds will have the same POI. The oil in the chamber and bore effects barrel vibrations and thus accuracy effecting the POI.

Even out of a properly fouled barrel, I have seen the first round out of a magazine strike a different POI. This is less of an issue with the AR-15 than the M-14 platform, but I have seen a difference with both.

[bigedp51]

The British in their older proof houses to this day still use the older base crusher system of measuring chamber pressure. A copper crusher is used at the base of the case that measures actual chamber pressure and the force applied to the bolt face.

In Britain, a third set of crusher standards were developed, using a "base" crusher. The crusher was a short, thick tube placed behind a piston at the base of the cartridge, and the firing pin passed through the center. The cartridge case was well oiled before firing, to minimize cling to the chamber walls (if not oiled, the indicated pressures were about 40-50% lower). To prevent case rupture on set back of the base, the crusher was first deformed in a press to a pressure a bit lower than that expected in firing. The units were generally stated in British long tons per square inch, or tsi. Pressures indicated by this method run 10 to 20% below those indicated by radial crushers. Kynamco in England still rates their production cartridges with this method.

Below is from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/TBOSA2-1_zps03cead47.jpg

It is also a present day NATO requirement that a oiled proof pressure test round be fired to test the bolt and receiver and a dry proof round be used to test the barrel. After firing the oiled proof round the action is checked for lug setback meaning increased headspace if the rifles headspace increases over a set amount the rifle fails proof testing. The oiled proof round is used to simulate the worst possible combat conditions.

Anyone who tells you is OK to have oil in the chamber or oil on their ammo doesn't have the pressure measuring equipment to back up their claims and has read too many internet myths. ;)

[kwg020]

You probably didn't bump the shoulder back enough.

IIRC, it should be bumped back .004" for an auto loader like the AR.

This is more than needed for a bolt gun with their high bolt locking leverage.

The fail to lock and difficulty extracting both point to a shoulder/headspace issue.

I have not read all the entries but I agree with this early assessment. I do a neck resize and then a full length resize on a Lee 4 hole press. I'm sure others would do the full length resize and then the neck resize but this has been working for me. I also use the Imperial wax or RCBS glycerin lube. It just depends on how many cases I'm resizing at one time.

I shoot my .223 out of 5 different semi autos and one bolt action and I don't want to custom load for individual rifles. This lets me shoot the ammo out of any gun at any time. kwg

[Maineshooter]

Just an update for those interested: After double checking the headspacing, etc. on the reloads and finding they were all within spec, I tumbled all of the brass. The second trip to the range with these rounds went off without a hitch and they performed flawlessly. The issue was indeed excess case lube that had melted on in the heat and dried before I could wipe them off. Lesson learned.

[bigedp51]

It is always amazing what people fail to read and learn, oil or lube in the chamber or cartridge case will double the bolt thust. NATO military proof testing requires two proof cartridges to be fired. One "dry" proof cartridge to proof the barrel and one oiled cartridge to proof the bolt and receiver. After proof testing the rifle is checked for headspace and if it has increased over a few thousandths the rifle fails proof testing. The oil proof cartridge simulates combat conditions like having water in the chamber and bore with the increased pressures and bolt thrust. If a oiled case increases bolt thrust and can increase headspace "WHY" would any sane person abuse their firearm doing it.

The United States Army tells you to "NOT" lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube-1_zps229e411c.jpg

The Sierra reloading manual tells you to not lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/0048a-1_zps295e303e.jpg

The Lyman reloading manual tells you to not lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lyman1a-1_zps8612cbc3.jpg

And the Springfield Armory tell you to not lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage1_zps747fb3cd.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage8_zpsd11bae00.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage24_zpsf25203cc.jpg

And two clowns make a video with a over oiled AR15 rifle "WITHOUT" any pressure measuring equipment and some of you take it as gospel. I'm going to start a new internet rumor and myth......................

Doctors at the Mayo clinic today announced that orange juice causes cancer in gay rats.

[aguila327]

It is always amazing what people fail to read and learn, oil or lube in the chamber or cartridge case will double the bolt thust. NATO military proof testing requires two proof cartridges to be fired. One "dry" proof cartridge to proof the barrel and one oiled cartridge to proof the bolt and receiver. After proof testing the rifle is checked for headspace and if it has increased over a few thousandths the rifle fails proof testing. The oil proof cartridge simulates combat conditions like having water in the chamber and bore with the increased pressures and bolt thrust. If a oiled case increases bolt thrust and can increase headspace "WHY" would any sane person abuse their firearm doing it.

The United States Army tells you to "NOT" lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube-1_zps229e411c.jpg

The Sierra reloading manual tells you to not lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/0048a-1_zps295e303e.jpg

The Lyman reloading manual tells you to not lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lyman1a-1_zps8612cbc3.jpg

And the Springfield Armory tell you to not lube your ammo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage1_zps747fb3cd.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage8_zpsd11bae00.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/M1APage24_zpsf25203cc.jpg

And two clowns make a video with a over oiled AR15 rifle "WITHOUT" any pressure measuring equipment and some of you take it as gospel. I'm going to start a new internet rumor and myth......................

Doctors at the Mayo clinic today announced that orange juice causes cancer in gay rats.

Read the thread. He was talking about the case lube used during resizing. Not lubing rounds to chamber easier.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[bigedp51]

Read the thread. He was talking about the case lube used during resizing. Not lubing rounds to chamber easier.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I did read every post, but apparently you didn't, post 28 has a link to another thread showing two clowns in a youtube video dunking a AR15 in motor oil and shooting it and saying oil in the bore and chamber is a myth.

The post topic is "AR reloads not going into battery - case lube issue?"
And YOU didn't read or comprehend my posting.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lyman1a-1_zps8612cbc3.jpg

Anything like, water, oil, grease, bore cleaners, etc will prevent the case from gripping the chamber walls when fired and increase bolt thrust or pressure load on the bolt face and locking lugs. And all American military firearms should have all oil or grease removed from the chamber and bore before firing. RTFM

[Ryno12]

And two clowns make a video with a over oiled AR15 rifle "WITHOUT" any pressure measuring equipment and some of you take it as gospel.

I did read every post, but apparently you didn't, post 28 has a link to another thread showing two clowns in a youtube video dunking a AR15 in motor oil and shooting it and saying oil in the bore and chamber is a myth.


Do you know who those "two clowns" are and who posted the link?

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[Tzed250]

Do you know who those "two clowns" are and who posted the link?

Sent via Tapatalk

Uh oh. ;)

[bigedp51]

Do you know who those "two clowns" are and who posted the link?

Sent via Tapatalk

Do those two clowns have pressure measuring equipment and understand bolt thrust.

Do those two clowns think they know more than the H.P. White testing laboratories.

Do those two clowns know more than the United States Army does?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube-1_zps229e411c.jpg

Oil in the chamber increases bolt thust which increases bolt wear and headspace. Do those two clowns understand how you get from a GO/NO-GO gauge to a field gauge and understand "WHY" the headspace increases.

Lets have these two clowns do a test between oiled ammunition and dry ammunition and see which rifle exceeds headspace limits first.

All these two clowns did was show the rifle wouldn't go Kaboom after it was dunked in engine oil. Now all of you ask yourselves what causes the headspace to increase on a firearm and maybe the light bulb will go on.

[Ryno12]

Do those two clowns have pressure measuring equipment and understand bolt thrust.

Do those two clowns think they know more than the H.P. White testing laboratories.

Do those two clowns know more than the United States Army does?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube-1_zps229e411c.jpg

Oil in the chamber increases bolt thust which increases bolt wear and headspace. Do those two clowns understand how you get from a GO/NO-GO gauge to a field gauge and understand "WHY" the headspace increases.

Lets have these two clowns do a test between oiled ammunition and dry ammunition and see which rifle exceeds headspace limits first.

All these two clowns did was show the rifle wouldn't go Kaboom after it was dunked in engine oil. Now all of you ask yourselves what causes the headspace to increase on a firearm and maybe the light bulb will go on.

18363

Sent via Tapatalk

[T2C]

You probably didn't bump the shoulder back enough.

IIRC, it should be bumped back .004" for an auto loader like the AR.

This is more than needed for a bolt gun with their high bolt locking leverage.

The fail to lock and difficulty extracting both point to a shoulder/headspace issue.

Clint is on point with his post.

I wipe the lube off my resized brass before loading them.

I lube my AR-15 rifles and carbines heavily.

Send in the clowns. :sarcastic:

[Pork Chop]

Do you know who those "two clowns" are and who posted the link?

Sent via Tapatalk

Lol,
What's that saying? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it shut the **** up and listen?

Something like that, anyway. :)

[GUNSLINGER733]

Re-Adjust your sizing die. I use very little case lube. I was having problems at one point with the bolt not seating properly and it was easily fixed by a small adjusment on my sizer.

I lube the hell out my my bcg, never had any problems

[bigedp51]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/uploadfromtaptalk1381435077103_zpsf2d4b19e.jpg

Sent via Tapatalk

If you notice your popcorn eater is sitting in the darkness of ignorance and is dead from the neck up and unmoving.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/popCorn_zpsb568acd0.gif

My popcorn eater is alive and well and is basking in the light of knowledge...............my popcorn eater isn't a clown doing stupid tricks in YouTube videos.

Anyone who thinks oil or grease in their chamber doesn't hurt anything is brain dead and doesn't understand bolt thrust and its effects on headspace.

[Ryno12]

If you notice your popcorn eater is sitting in the darkness of ignorance and is dead from the neck up and unmoving.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/popCorn_zpsb568acd0.gif

My popcorn eater is alive and well and is basking in the light of knowledge...............my popcorn eater isn't a clown doing stupid tricks in YouTube videos.

Anyone who thinks oil or grease in their chamber doesn't hurt anything is brain dead and doesn't understand bolt thrust and its effects on headspace.

Actually, I did know that but it was more important for me to quote you at the time rather than having a working GIF file. I figured once I was at a PC, I'd get him off his diet.

Oh and BTW, I'm pretty sure LAV has a good idea on the inner workings of a firearm.

:secret: ...and between you & I, the mods frown upon members insulting our SME's.

[T2C]

If you notice your popcorn eater is sitting in the darkness of ignorance and is dead from the neck up and unmoving.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/popCorn_zpsb568acd0.gif

My popcorn eater is alive and well and is basking in the light of knowledge...............my popcorn eater isn't a clown doing stupid tricks in YouTube videos.

Anyone who thinks oil or grease in their chamber doesn't hurt anything is brain dead and doesn't understand bolt thrust and its effects on headspace.

If I get 8,000 rounds out of a barrel and bolt instead of 10,000 rounds because of a little extra lube, I am willing to trade it for reliability.

[bigedp51]

The first round fired in that oil dunked AR15 exceeded a blue pill proof pressure test round. (well over 70,000 psi) And until all the oil in the bore and chamber were burned away the the pressure and bolt thrust exceeded the normal working pressure of that ammunition. A military firearm is built many times stronger than need be to survive the riggers of combat conditions. This simply means it can withstand higher pressures without going Kaboom. Now how many civilian AR15 rifles are built to milspec requirments?

Below is from the H.P.White Testing labratories on what causes a firearm to go Kaboom. And please notice it is the little things that add up that can cause a catastrophic failure.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Overpressure-boltthrust_zps9ddd4ca8.jpg

Dunking that AR15 in motor oil is something the military would do during the testing phase of that firearm.(normally it is dunked in water) This "ABUSED" firearm would then go through rigorous testing to see what these "ABNORMAL" effects would cause. High pressure and excessive bolt thrust will shorten the life of any firearm and the Youtube video sends the wrong impression to unknowing gun owners.

Dunking any firearm in motor oil and excessive bolt thrust can cause a firearm to fail and even cause a catastrophic failure.

[T2C]

I can't help but wonder if excess lube is less of an issue with an AR-15 than a M-14 or M1 Garand, because of rifle design.

[bigedp51]

I can't help but wonder if excess lube is less of an issue with an AR-15 than a M-14 or M1 Garand, because of rifle design.

Let see, the AR15 has a barrel, a chamber and a bolt, and the M14 has a barrel, a chamber and a bolt and the M1 has a barrel, a chamber and a bolt. Now what is the difference, lets see, barrel, chamber, bolt, hmmm.

I know what the difference is, older intelligent people wouldn't dunk their M14 or M1 in motor oil and shoot the rifle in a YouTube video because they read the Sierra reloading manual and understand over pressure and bolt thrust.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/0048a-1_zps295e303e.jpg

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does.

[Ryno12]

Let see, the AR15 has a barrel, a chamber and a bolt, and the M14 has a barrel, a chamber and a bolt and the M1 has a barrel, a chamber and a bolt. Now what is the difference, lets see, barrel, chamber, bolt, hmmm.

I know what the difference is, older intelligent people wouldn't dunk their M14 or M1 in motor oil and shoot the rifle in a YouTube video because they read the Sierra reloading manual and understand over pressure and bolt thrust.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/0048a-1_zps295e303e.jpg

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does.

Just can't seem to get over it, huh? Too bad. ...and for such a charming individual. :rolleyes:

Sent via Tapatalk

[bigedp51]

Just can't seem to get over it, huh? Too bad. ...and for such a charming individual. :rolleyes:

Sent via Tapatalk

The other lemmings might follow you off the cliff, I will stand at the edge of the cliff and wave goodbye.

Drill Sergeant: Gump! What's your sole purpose in this army?
Forrest Gump: To do whatever you tell me, drill sergeant!
Drill Sergeant: God damn it, Gump! You're a god damn genius! This is the most outstanding answer I have ever heard. You must have a goddamn I.Q. of 160. You are goddamn gifted, Private Gump.
Listen up, people....Don't dunk your M16 rifles in motor oil, its bad for the rifle.

Below, item "C" from Army warning
C. Excess stress on the weapon
Oily cartridge cases increase the force on the weapons bolt. This over stresses the bolts locking lugs and can, over time, increase headspace (not good) and in a worse-case scenario, the locking lugs can fail. If the locking lugs fail, you get a blown weapon.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube-1_zps229e411c.jpg

[T2C]

I understand what you are saying bigedp51, but after 30+ years of experience with the M-14 platform and 28 years experience with the AR platform without any lubricant related issues, it's hard to change my ways.

I wish you fair winds and following seas.

[bigedp51]

I understand what you are saying bigedp51, but after 30+ years of experience with the M-14 platform and 28 years experience with the AR platform without any lubricant related issues, it's hard to change my ways.

I wish you fair winds and following seas.

And I'm 63 and the first M16 rifles they handed us jammed every time we fired them and they were a POS. Call me old fashioned but my M1 is a much better rifle than the mouse gun and I don't abuse my M1 rifle or my two AR15s by dunking them in mortor oil.

I know what the two clowns were "trying" to say about running your AR15s wet. But they went about it the wrong way by dunking them in oil. That much oil should "NEVER" be left in the chamber and bore and then firing the rifle. Even the military manual tells you to open the bolt and drain the bore after fording a stream, and that's just water.

It was a stupid stunt and we see enough dumb stunts on YouTube without so called professionals misleading the public.

C. Excess stress on the weapon
Oily cartridge cases increase the force on the weapons bolt. This over stresses the bolts locking lugs and can, over time, increase headspace (not good) and in a worse-case scenario, the locking lugs can fail. If the locking lugs fail, you get a blown weapon.


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/ar-bolt-broken-after-4-rounds_zps968f35d4.jpg

The next three photos tell a story about over lubrication and bolt thrust.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/P1000851_zpsaa6b61ac.jpg

I love the smell of burning motor oil in the morning........

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/P1000864_zps5d0a3f0e.jpg

The bolt after draining the oil after 7,500 miles and cleaning the bolt.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/P1000855_zpsdd39f65f.jpg

C. Excess stress on the weapon
Oily cartridge cases increase the force on the weapons bolt. This over stresses the bolts locking lugs and can, over time, increase headspace (not good) and in a worse-case scenario, the locking lugs can fail. If the locking lugs fail, you get a blown weapon.

And I don't care how much experience anyone claims to have when ignoring published facts on chamber pressure and bolt thrust.

[Larry Vickers]

Hey someone pointed me this way so I could comment - I must say I agree 100% that never should you leave as much oil as I did in that 'lubrication test' in the chamber or bore or internal parts of the weapon

As was stated in the show for all to see it was an extreme test to show people the myth of over lubrication - we took it 100 times beyond what anyone would ever do to show viewers that in the real world over lubrication is truly a myth and the real problem is lack of proper lubrication; experience has taught me that for whatever reason as soon as a shooter hears ' apply very little lube' that turns into ' apply no lube ' real fast

It remains the number one problem I see in every class - lack of proper lubrication on the critical moving parts of the firearm

Keeping the gun clean is not nearly as important as keeping them lubed - guns like the AR will run fine dirty and wet ; but dirty and dry is asking for problems

As far as me being a clown no worries - I hear that from my wife everyday !!!

[bigedp51]

Hey someone pointed me this way so I could comment - I must say I agree 100% that never should you leave as much oil as I did in that 'lubrication test' in the chamber or bore or internal parts of the weapon

As was stated in the show for all to see it was an extreme test to show people the myth of over lubrication - we took it 100 times beyond what anyone would ever do to show viewers that in the real world over lubrication is truly a myth and the real problem is lack of proper lubrication; experience has taught me that for whatever reason as soon as a shooter hears ' apply very little lube' that turns into ' apply no lube ' real fast

It remains the number one problem I see in every class - lack of proper lubrication on the critical moving parts of the firearm

Keeping the gun clean is not nearly as important as keeping them lubed - guns like the AR will run fine dirty and wet ; but dirty and dry is asking for problems

As far as me being a clown no worries - I hear that from my wife everyday !!!

Welcome to Vickers Tactical®
Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical in a retired US Army 1st SFOD- Delta combat veteran with years of experience in the firearms industry as a combat marksmanship instructor and industry consultant.

"In addition he was directly involved in the design and development of the HK416 for Tier One SOF use which was used by Naval Special Warfare personnel to kill Osama Bin Laden."

Then Mr. Vickers you must have heard the old joke about too many football games without a helmet.
(I think the joke was started at a Army-Navy football game)

Now "why" is the German H&K test shooter wearing a "very" protective helmet and face shield when firing the Colt in this water test? And did you see this test video before dunking the AR15 in motor oil and firing it?

HK (Heckler & Koch) versus Colt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU

Now how many people have non-Colt AR15 rifles not made from milspec parts that could come unglued if dunked in motor oil?

[30 cal slut]

1) I don't use my Dillon to resize. That station is empty. I resize on a Rockchucker and now re-tumble re-sized brass to get the case lube off. It's extra work but I can sleep at night.

2) There are two quality control checks that I do on each and every rifle and pistol round that comes off my 550. It doesn't take that much extra time. The first is a "shake" test. I gently shake the cartridge close to my ear to listen for powder - this is a test to ensure I did not put a bullet on an empty case. The second is to run each cartridge through a Dillon or Wilson case gauge.

[Airhasz]

1) I don't use my Dillon to resize. That station is empty. I resize on a Rockchucker and now re-tumble re-sized brass to get the case lube off. It's extra work but I can sleep at night.

2) There are two quality control checks that I do on each and every rifle and pistol round that comes off my 550. It doesn't take that much extra time. The first is a "shake" test. I gently shake the cartridge close to my ear to listen for powder - this is a test to ensure I did not put a bullet on an empty case. The second is to run each cartridge through a Dillon or Wilson case gauge.

You have some good hearing if you can hear flake powder in a 9mm luger round, I certainly cannot.

[Hehuhates]

HK (Heckler & Koch) versus Colt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU

Is the mag stuck in the magwell @2:32???

[bigedp51]

HK (Heckler & Koch) versus Colt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU

Is the mag stuck in the magwell @2:32???

No, his thumb and fingers are gripping the mag.

[Hehuhates]

Looked to me like he hit release had resistance and stopped.
I've watched it a few more times and whatever he said @2:36 translates to "****ing mag's stuck".