Suppressor Concentricity

[orkan]

All suppressors are not created equal, or straight, for that matter.

Always be sure to leave your suppressor with your gunsmith so he can check your can's concentricity at the time of barrel threading. This video will likely shock you, as it did us.

http://youtu.be/ANJYxgbWYTc

[Gutshot John]

:blink:

That's freaking amazing. Good to know.

[orkan]

Yeah, both Travis and I looked at each other in disbelief.

To think of how many suppressors I own, and all I usually did was screw them onto a known true rifle, pull the bolt out, and look down the bore to make sure nothing was obviously going to be hitting.

I'll be checking all my suppressors, as well as every suppressor we go to sell our customers.

[JohnnyC]

Send the video to SWR/Silencerco. I'd imagine they'd be more that willing to fix it for you. Give them a chance to address the issue.

Just from my own experience with Gemtech's QC, that Alpine is the exception, not the rule.

[orkan]

Let me try to clear something up here folks. This conversation is going somewhere other than what Travis and I had intended. This video was NOT meant to outline a deficiency in SilencerCo/SWR's manufacturing techniques. This video was meant to generate awareness in regard to ALL suppressors in regard to their concentricity, and encourage people to get their suppressors to their gunsmiths for eval at the time their barrel is setup in the lathe to cut threads.

It was a mistake to even mention the brand names involved. I remember now how viciously competitive the suppressor market is, and did not give consideration to the fact it could do those manufacturers a disservice. We were simply astonished by what we saw, and realized that this conversation rarely takes place. The emphasis is always on the barrel threads, but never on the suppressors themselves. The intention of the video was to get people to check ALL of their suppressors at the time the threads are cut regardless of manufacturer... not just SilencerCo/SWR's. We had a sample size of one part from each of the manufacturers. That is NOT enough to make a summary judgement of that companies quality.

Also, let me be clear in saying we are a class 3 firearms dealer. We have sold a great many suppressors, and quite a lot of SWR Spectre II's. All of those customers are happy. You can see here that we recently did a review of the SWR Spectre II (http://www.primalrights.com/forum/review.php?a=7465), and gave it a glowing recommendation. It is a quiet, strong, ultra-serviceable, and accurate suppressor. When one of my customers comes looking for the best bomb-proof rimfire can, I sell them a Spectre II. So please do not misinterpret what the video was intended to illuminate. I have had no doubt that SilencerCo/SWR would stand behind their product, and replace any defective parts. We've been selling their suppressors for quite some time now, and while we have not had to use their service department, I have always known they would stand behind their product. This continues to be true. They are still our go-to suppressor for the top end rimfire segment. So please, understand that we were so excited to get our customers and viewer base to start looking at suppressor concentricity, that we did not give any weight to how it may impact the manufacturers mentioned. I tried to make this clear in the video, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. ;)

After today I have more confidence in SilencerCo than ever. Gary @ SilencerCo saw the video, and called me first thing this morning. First, he let me know that the thread job he saw in the video was not their recommended spec. They have a published spec which involves a thread relief on the end of the muzzle, which makes concentric contact with their internal O-ring. He informed me that a typical .6" long thread spec would make contact with an internal shoulder, as well as put a great deal of stress on the O-ring. (TS Custom set it to .5" long, not .6") Gary said this is something they see every day, and has been the direct cause of run-out problems in the past. When they are confronted with that issue, they generally send out a spacer, that goes between the barrel shoulder and the suppressor, which pushes the suppressor out and eliminates contact with the internal shoulder and solves the problem. Gary is sending one of these spacers out to us as part of his due diligence. He was emphatic in his willingness to solve the problem by any means necessary. He was very clear that if we adhere to their recommended thread spec, and/or use the provided spacer and still have unacceptable run-out, then they would replace the faulty parts with all haste. I never had any doubt, but it was good to have it validated yet again.

Having said that, Travis is a very meticulous and exacting gunsmith. We spent several hours examining the problem regarding that particular Spectre II's run-out. Travis had it off the host rifle, and was able to find several irregularities on the part. Also, we are certain that the threads weren't making contact with the internal shoulder. So, we are of the mind that this particular end cap is faulty. However, it is clear that SilencerCo took exception to the thread spec in the video, and rightfully so. We cannot be certain that excessive run-out exists until we adhere to their spec, and re-test the suppressor in question. We intend to do this testing soon, and with proper video equipment to ensure a higher quality end product and eliminate any questions in regard to setup. This first time around it was just a surprise, so I whipped out my iPhone and started documenting. Gary made it very clear, that if any problematic parts are discovered, they would replace them. This is ALL anyone can ask. You can ask manufacturers to be flawless, but you'll be disappointed a lot! All companies can turn out a bad part once in a while. It's expected. It's how they handle it which is important, and SilencerCo is handling this very well.

I've received PM's from several people whom said they have a Spectre II or other SilencerCo product awaiting transfer, asking if they had anything to worry about. The clear answer is NO... you have nothing to fear from that product! Again, please do not misinterpret the intention of the video. SilencerCo/SWR Spectre II is our favorite rimfire can, and we've shot them all. You should not trust ANY suppressor from ANY manufacturer unless that particular suppressor has been checked for concentricity by a competent gunsmith at the time your barrel is setup in the lathe to cut threads. Even if you then determine you have a bad suppressor, SilencerCo will absolutely make it right. As will most major suppressor manufacturers. Until we test the rest of our inventory of Spectre II cans, on SilencerCo's approved thread spec, we have no way of knowing if a tolerance problem exists. This is why I spent very little time talking about brand name issues. Nor did I ever say or indicate that all of SilencerCo's products would have run-out problems because that one suppressor did. Point in fact, I specifically stated that the video wasn't meant to "poo poo" on any one manufacturer, and that we had a very small sample size. Small enough, to not draw ANY real conclusions from. The point of the video was, unless you check your suppressor, you will never know if it's straight or not.

Going forward we intend to try the "spacer" fix that Gary is sending out. We are also going to thread up another barrel to SilencerCo's recommended spec. Then we'll test our suppressors on that spec and report back with the findings.

[Gutshot John]

Thank you Greg for taking the time to post this. I also appreciate you taking the time to clarify your findings after speaking to the manufacturer.

My next can is likely to be Silencerco (whenever their 7.62 comes out), and their response only confirms that it's a good choice.

I think it's a valuable lesson to make sure you are installing the device per the manufacturer spec, and equally to have your smith check and recheck to prevent something from going sideways.

[Silencerco_SWR]

We have been in contact with Greg at Primal Rights regarding his recent video on suppressor concentricity. We have offered suggestions as to thread specs for rimfire for use with our silencers to provide more accurate representation of what run out numbers on ours or other suppressors are. Greg has agreed to perform his testing once again using a .4" 1/2x28 thread spec and inform us of the results to ascertain what , if any problems exist with his particular test unit. We have gone through and checked all current production units and found them all to be well within established specifications on appropriate threads. Greg at Primal Rights has brought light to a serious issue within the suppressor, gunsmith and firearms manufacturer community which is seldom addressed. All suppressor manufacturers frequently deal with poor quality, loose tolerance threads performed by uninformed individuals on a daily basis. The firearms manufacturers frequently put incorrect threads for their intended application on guns as well. Many suppressor manufacturers have built products with less than stellar QC. When playing the blame game, even with so many players, there is plenty to go around.
In our conversations with Greg after reviewing his video, we have found him to be extremely knowledgeable and to exhibit genuine concern for his customers. We feel that the use of the industry standard .4" rimfire thread spec will largely alleviate the run out concentricity problems greg experienced in his original video. We are sending him machine drawings of our thread spec and a thread spacer that we frequently use to allow customers get a proper thread length on guns that are threaded too long to test. It may be that after all this testing, Greg's original test unit could exhibit a degree of run out which we would find unacceptable. In that event we would react how we always have, doing everything in our power to make it right for our customer with as much speed as possible. We are fairly well known in the industry for our stellar warranty and service after the sale. We pride ourselves on it. Bad parts can and do happen, but on incorrect thread specs , even the best parts will not be concentric.
Either way, we appreciate Greg's willingness to conduct his testing again and work with us in a constructive manner. Perhaps if there were more of this kind of cooperation between Manufacturers, quality gunsmiths and dealers who exhibit more than a passing concern for their customer (Such as Greg) we would see much less confusion in the market.

Gary Hughes
VP of Sales
Silencerco

[Bluto]

This is why I own 5 silencerco cans...

[Iraqgunz]

orkan,

I am going to be the lone gunman here. Many "gunsmiths" don't know shit except how to work on Remington 700's or fixing bubbas shotgun.

Most of them cannot troubleshoot or repair an AR. Even less are truly good enough to do suppressor related stuff.

Just comb the pages here at M4C and see some horror stories first hand.

Recently when I did a class in GA, that department took their uppers to the local "gunsmith" who installed all of them with crush washers and some funky ass shim process that was a baffle strike in waiting.

So I guess what I am saying is that before someone rushes down to the local butcher, they need to speak with that person, understand what is required and make sure that both parties are aware and the expectations.

[orkan]

You ain't kidding iraqgunz. Seen plenty of it myself first-hand. Yet the riflesmith I'm working with certainly doesn't fall into that category.

[orkan]

The new video...

http://youtu.be/Lp9HgEPfW1Q