A Felony for protecting your child from pervert [Archive]

Moose-Knuckle

09-10-13, 18:39

Our society is coming apart !

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/10/what-the-justice-system-did-to-this-father-after-he-beat-up-a-naked-peeping-tom-outside-his-daughters-window-has-neighbors-fuming/

I LOVE this gem . . .

“We have a lot of concerns when victims provoke any kinds of attacks or pursue their attackers even if it’s with good reason, for instance in this situation where you have your children being victimized,” Albuquerque Police Department Officer Tasia Martinez told KRQE.

Lock-n-step like a good girl now . . . :rolleyes:

fixit69

09-10-13, 18:56

Ill just do my time. You just can't win now and have to decide accordingly.

Not really...

ETA: "even if it's with good reason". I hope a father would think more about his child than whatever repercussion he may face on his own. I do.

Alaskapopo

09-10-13, 19:36

Looks like he was injured trying to resist a citizens arrest in my view. Oh well absolutely no charges would be coming from me in that situation.
Pat

Ryno12

09-10-13, 19:58

Having daughters, I'm not sure how I'd react. It sickens me to even think about it. These nut jobs start out small, pullin it to internet pics. Then they're wacking off in the bushes while staring at your kids through the window. What happens when they get bored with all that & they happen to see your daughter walking to school?
We need to toughen up on creeps like this very early on.

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Mac5.56

09-10-13, 20:03

It almost seems like he would have been better off legally if he shot the guy.

Seriously.

Man as a new father this kind of stuff just freaks me out, that I have to surrender to the state for our protection unless it comes down to a direct threat to my life (in which case I would be justified in defending myself but I will spend probably a decade in court). What the hell ever happened to these kinds of community responses being acceptable?

I think EVERY father could empathize with this man, and most would do the same.

I'm not trying to be anti LEO but these stories make me convinced the police state is here and not going anywhere soon...

Sensei

09-10-13, 21:42

I'm not sure if anyone actually read this story since it appears that this father actually chased the guy down the street before almost beating him to death. Sounds like vigilante justice if you ask me.

Emilio Chavez III of Albuquerque allegedly beat Dylan Maho so badly after he found the man naked outside his home that he has been charged with aggravated battery. Maho had to be taken to the hospital in critical condition...A 911 call was made, but when police arrived they found that the girls’ father, brother and a friend had apparently chased Maho down the street. When police found Maho, he had been beaten.

So, does anyone think that we should allow 3rd party victims to seek revenge outside of the justice system?

Sensei

09-10-13, 21:46

Looks like he was injured trying to resist a citizens arrest in my view. Oh well absolutely no charges would be coming from me in that situation.
Pat

If someone gets beaten to the point of intubation and ICU admission a patrol cop is not going to be making the decision about charges.

Moose-Knuckle

09-10-13, 21:51

So, does anyone think that we should allow 3rd party victims to seek revenge outside of the justice system?

I can garun-god-damn-tee this oxygen thief got served more justice in that incident than a lifetime through the revolving door known as our "justice system".

GeorgiaBoy

09-10-13, 21:56

I can garun-god-damn-tee this oxygen thief got served more justice in that incident than a lifetime through the revolving door known as our "justice system".

True, but it seems a little non sequiter to assert that our society is falling apart because the father is being charged, but at the same time seem to be OK with vigilante justice being served outside of a court of law.

I party agree with Sensei here. While I agree the perp somewhat got what he deserved, I also agree that the father took the law into his own hands and should face the consequences for his actions.

AKDoug

09-10-13, 21:57

Speaking with KRQE, Chavez said he was so angry, he doesn’t remember chasing down Maho and that he wishes he didn’t beat him so badly. The station noted Chavez having a criminal record for child abuse and domestic violence. Unfortunately, the father appears to be just as big of a scum bag.

Sensei

09-10-13, 21:59

I can garun-god-damn-tee this oxygen thief got served more justice in that incident than a lifetime through the revolving door known as our "justice system".

And you are positive that things went down like the father alledges? Are you sure that The Blaze got all of the facts straight? Would your mind be changed had you known that Mr. Maho was severely mentally retarded with Down Syndrome?

Alaskapopo

09-10-13, 21:59

Bullshit. If someone gets beaten to the point of intubation and ICU admission a patrol cop is not going to be making the decision about charges.

That is true I missed the critical condition part.
Pat

Sensei

09-10-13, 22:14

Unfortunately, the father appears to be just as big of a scum bag.

No, say it isn't so! He looked like such a nice guy.

Honu

09-10-13, 22:49

Yeah dude who pounded the perv had a record ? Hard to say what circumstances are for him ? Maybe he spanked his kids ? some call that child abuse these days?
His wife beat him he pushed her back he gets the short end ! We dont know and it does not matter !

Fact is a dude was naked yanking himself off watching two minors his daughters
Most dads would chase down and beat the perv
Also the perv lives near them is always having sex parties walking around naked leaving condoms on the street
We dont know maybe he has said stuff before about wanting to do his daughters etc..

Fact is a naked dude yanking himself off on your property over your minor daughters and he is the victim !
That is how we are screwed up IMHO

Caduceus

09-10-13, 23:04

I'm not sure if anyone actually read this story since it appears that this father actually chased the guy down the street before almost beating him to death. Sounds like vigilante justice if you ask me.

So, does anyone think that we should allow 3rd party victims to seek revenge outside of the justice system?

Sometimes, yes.

Moose-Knuckle

09-10-13, 23:20

True, but it seems a little non sequiter to assert that our society is falling apart because the father is being charged, but at the same time seem to be OK with vigilante justice being served outside of a court of law.

I re-read my previous posts and do not see where I asserted that our society is falling apart due to this father committing the ultimate sin of beating a poor misunderstood peeping tom.

I party agree with Sensei here. While I agree the perp somewhat got what he deserved, I also agree that the father took the law into his own hands and should face the consequences for his actions.

This is my surprised face.

Whiskey_Bravo

09-10-13, 23:33

I'm not sure if anyone actually read this story since it appears that this father actually chased the guy down the street before almost beating him to death. Sounds like vigilante justice if you ask me.

So, does anyone think that we should allow 3rd party victims to seek revenge outside of the justice system?

I am 100% ok with a father chasing an absolute worthless to society piece of shit down the street and beating him to an ICU pulp. Kind of hard to explain your way out of looking into a kids window while naked. If that's not what happened let it play out as it should.

I would have a serious problem with anyone willing to pursue legally a family member that chased and beat a peeping pervert. **** that shit.

Whiskey_Bravo

09-10-13, 23:36

You can call it vigilante justice if you want, but I would "deal" with any guy I found naked outside of my daughters window.

GeorgiaBoy

09-10-13, 23:44

I re-read my previous posts and do not see where I asserted that our society is falling apart due to this father committing the ultimate sin of beating a poor misunderstood peeping tom.

Honu said in his OP that society is coming apart (which I presume was due to charges being filed against the father)

This is my surprised face.

Sorry, but I don't think this guy should just get a free pass.

FromMyColdDeadHand

09-11-13, 00:08

Maybe the father and perv can do time together. Be cell mates...

Glad my daughters window is on the second floor.

The guys homeowners is probably going to have to dish out some cash- though I guess the beating took place off property.

There is a good 'dick in your own hands'/'law in your own hands' joke in there somewhere.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 00:42

And you are positive that things went down like the father alledges? Are you sure that The Blaze got all of the facts straight?

No I am not. Are you positive that they didn't go down like the father stated? If you have more information I would be happy to read it. But I gather you were not there same as I.

Would your mind be changed had you known that Mr. Maho was severely mentally retarded with Down Syndrome?

No it wouldn't. Why should someone's medical condition excuse them from victimizing a minor? If a man molested your child and it turned out that he had a mental disorder would you just say oppsie poopsie and give him a free pass? I'm reminded of the novella Of Mice and Men that I read at an early age.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 00:50

Unfortunately, the father appears to be just as big of a scum bag.

No, say it isn't so! He looked like such a nice guy.

So if the girl's father is an ex-con does that somehow make it okay for the daughter to be victimized by a sexual deviant? If I was a child predator I would think it would be conducive to my physical wellbeing to shy away from the children of men who do not have much regard for the rule of law.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 01:11

Honu said in his OP that society is coming apart (which I presume was due to charges being filed against the father)

Sorry, but I don't think this guy should just get a free pass.

Ahh, well in that case I see what Honu was getting out. No need to apologize as you and I seldom agree on topics.

AKDoug

09-11-13, 01:12

Didn't say it wasn't o.k. for the guy yanking his weenie outside the window. I just pointed out that the father was a convicted child abuser. That means he physically abused a child. That makes him worse than some guy jerking off outside the window.

I fully supported that guy who killed his child's abuser last year when he caught him in the act. Detaining a guy and a couple good punches for a peeping Tom seems like a reasonable level of violence. Putting him in the ICU doesn't seem appropriate for someone who didn't touch the child.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 01:44

jklaughrey

09-11-13, 01:47

You know there was a time not too long ago where men were expected to take care of their own.
I suppose taking away our rights to protect those who steal ours is the norm.

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SteyrAUG

09-11-13, 01:56

What a load of shit.

2:30am and a naked man outside your 13 and 15 year old daughters bedroom? That is quite a bit more than voyeurism (which is already bad enough). Where the hell is the indecent exposure charges on this guy?

And yeah, an ass beating should be standard and it sounds like a good way to get shot by a father who has serious concerns about your criminal intentions regarding his daughters.

SteyrAUG

09-11-13, 01:59

Putting him in the ICU doesn't seem appropriate for someone who didn't touch the child.

Didn't touch a child...yet.

I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager I was tapping on a lot of girl's windows and such hoping to get let in, but I never was out there naked.

Honu

09-11-13, 02:15

again you are quick to say he is a child abuser without knowing fact
spanking a child can be abuse these days !
what if his 17 year old kid wanted to join the gangs and his dad was trying to stop him ? so his kid made something up ?
wow that might make him a totally dif dad !

his past does not matter what matters is a perv was after his daughters ! and he protected them

and maybe that perv has raped many children ? again we dont know but good chance is if you read what neighbors say they like the dad and not the perv

Didn't say it wasn't o.k. for the guy yanking his weenie outside the window. I just pointed out that the father was a convicted child abuser. That means he physically abused a child. That makes him worse than some guy jerking off outside the window.

I fully supported that guy who killed his child's abuser last year when he caught him in the act. Detaining a guy and a couple good punches for a peeping Tom seems like a reasonable level of violence. Putting him in the ICU doesn't seem appropriate for someone who didn't touch the child.

Honu

09-11-13, 02:17

and should say touched that he has been caught for !

and like you many kids were tapping or throwing rocks but not when they were 29 to a 13 year olds windows naked hiding playing with themselves !

I think if it was a teen boyfriend tapping outside the dad would not have done that !

Didn't touch a child...yet.

I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager I was tapping on a lot of girl's windows and such hoping to get let in, but I never was out there naked.

Honu

09-11-13, 02:19

could be funny to make sure his lawyer mentions that the pervert guy also said he was going to have sex with both his daughters and he was going to set him up so he would not be around to protect them

then the jury gets to hear about the sick neighbor that everyone hates and leaves condoms around is known to have sex parties and walk around naked had said he was going to set the dad up so he could rape his daughters and let the jury decide

and why was he outside kids window at that time in the morning !

then when the guy goes in try to make sure all the inmates know what he was doing ;)

Iraqgunz

09-11-13, 05:43

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 06:14

You can sure tell from a mans posts in this thread who has daughters of their own and who does not.

It changes ones perspective in ways that you cannot explain until it happens to you.

Iraqgunz

09-11-13, 06:33

You can sure tell when someone makes an assumption. I have a 16 year old daughter as well as 3 grown boys.

You can sure tell from a mans posts in this thread who has daughters of their own and who does not.

It changes ones perspective in ways that you cannot explain until it happens to you.

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 06:49

You can sure tell when someone makes an assumption. I have a 16 year old daughter as well as 3 grown boys.

Fair enough, but you're telling me that a shitbag wanking off to your daughter should be told to "go away"?
You sure you really thought that through? As a Father, you'd just yell SCAT, like a stray dog taking a dump in your yard?

I guess the part of your post that got me was where you said "he wasn't trying to get in".
Some ****er finds himself nose to glass outside my daughters window and its on. He wasn't trying to gain entry.........YET.

Sorry, we'll just have to disagree.

Army Chief

09-11-13, 06:51

While I don't feel any particlar empathy for the perpetrator in this case, we do have to concede that he was not beaten for the "protection"of these girls, nearly so much as for punishment for his actions. I don't know a man among us (especially those with a daughter or two) that wouldn't find the father's actions pretty easy to rationalize -- if not condone, on some level -- but legally speaking, you don't really get to run someone down and and administer a severe whipping just because you are incensed at his behavior. The moral and parental overtones notwithstanding, it doesn't make much more sense than the act of shooting a kid in the leg for trying to steal the rims off of your truck. Deserved, perhaps. Not legally justified.

Clearly, this guy (the peeper) has a host of other issues, and I can appreciate that the neighbors probably lost their sense of humor about all of this long ago. A nice, old-school tail whipping might actually be just what the doctor ordered. It's just not what a contemporary court of law is likely to consider a proportional response; especially given the severity of the actions taken in this case. A situation like this might represent a better case for a liberal full-coverage application of an aerosol LE-grade pepper spray, though. Can't imagine that would feel particularly good on the unmentionables, and the troublesome "hands-on" aspect is effectively eliminated.

AC

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 06:54

FromMyColdDeadHand

09-11-13, 08:00

A situation like this might represent a better case for a liberal full-coverage application of an aerosol LE-grade pepper spray, though. Can't imagine that would feel particularly good on the unmentionables, and the troublesome "hands-on" aspect is effectively eliminated.

AC

Genius......

The guy kind of lost me when he chased the guy down the street. Heat of passion, perhaps still a threat, but once you get a posse together and chase someone down, that's more Sheriff than self appointed deputy business.

The people in this neighborhood have more issues than National Geographic.

Sensei

09-11-13, 08:27

I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager I was tapping on a lot of girl's windows and such hoping to get let in, but I never was out there naked.

Where did you go to college? Bob Jones University or something?

Army Chief

09-11-13, 08:33

Where did you go to college? Bob Jones University or something?

Did BJU even have windows in the girls' dorms? lol

I'll have to ask my sister. Seriously.

AC

Ryno12

09-11-13, 10:49

The father's criminal history aside, what is the issue here that some are having? Is it that the dad beat up the guy or the fact he chased the weasel off his property then beat him up? Again, I have no idea how I'd react in that situation & I hope I don't find out. I do think the perp is just at his earlier stages of potentially becoming another Ariel Castro. My "yard" is several acres; I don't see the guy making off my property before I caught him. (I can't picture myself chasing after some naked dude but who knows in this situation) Likely, it would be near the window IF I decided to get physical.
Also, I don't consider this guy a "Peeping Tom". If he's caught checking out my wife, sure. My adolescent daughters, he's a creepy pedophile in my book.

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Pork Chop

09-11-13, 10:59

Evidently if you abuse your kids it should be perfectly allowable for others to do it as well.

I have zero child abuser love, but since this guy was in trouble for this before, he is somehow a hypocrite for protecting them from a filthy pervert?

We should be happy he stepped up to protect his daughters, regardless of past convictions. But, that's just me.

Sensei

09-11-13, 11:00

The father's criminal history aside, is the issue here that some are having that the dad beat up the guy or the fact he chased the weasel off his property then beat him up? Again, I have no idea how I'd react in that situation & I hope I don't find out. I do think the perp is just at his earlier stages of potentially becoming another Ariel Castro. My "yard" is several acres; I don't see the guy making off my property before I caught him. (I can't picture myself chasing after some naked dude but who knows on this situation?) Likely, it would be near the window IF I decided to get physical.
Also, I don't consider this guy a "Peeping Tom". If he's caught checking out my wife, sure. My adolescent daughters, he's a creepy pedophile in my book.

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1) He gathered a posse.
2) He chased the guy down the street.
3) He and his posse beat the guy so severely that he was put in an ICU.

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 11:06

1) He gathered a posse.
2) He chased the guy down the street.
3) He and his posse beat the guy so severely that he was put in an ICU.

Do you feel said pervert may hesitate to jerk off, naked, to his neighbors daughters next time?

I'm sure I'll be in a minority on this, but does anybody feel anymore that, if you put yourself in a position to get your ass beat, it may just happen?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Don't want beaten half to death? Feel free not to pleasure yourself, naked, to a guys underage daughters, while trespassing on the property of a convict. Just sayin.

skydivr

09-11-13, 11:07

I've actually been to Bob Jones (many years ago)...I would NOT have wanted to go there.

I have a young daughter...I catch some naked dude peeping her and playing with himself, he's not likely to make it out of the yard, our Castle Doctrine is pretty strong in TN...

fixit69

09-11-13, 11:15

I have only the most basic grasp of law, but could his actions just be voyeurism or be construed as intent? Someone more well versed in law clarify this for me.

Army Chief

09-11-13, 11:24

But, that's just me.

It's not just you.

You're couching this in unusually strong terms, perhaps, but it is a firebrand issue to be sure. On sentiment, I'd say that we would all raise a toast to your position. Where the law is concerned, I would be slightly less-enthusiastic about potentially risking my freedoms over taking something to a level 9 response a when level 6 or 7 might have sufficed. But, of course, who can really say that with any degree of confidence?

I don't judge the guy (father), and in the heat of the moment, I have no idea what I would have done. I sure do love my daughter. Still, there was no real physical threat involved here, and given the current political/legal climate, I'm just left to wonder how wise it is to introduce one by way of response.

Pepper spray. To the junk. I think that would really be my plan. By the time the prosecutor finished laughing about it, I doubt that he/she would feel terribly-inclined to move ahead with any charges. Once you whip someone's posterior and do serious physical harm, you've really altered the dynamics of the encounter, and not in a way that favors your position, no matter how righteous the cause.

AC

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 11:37

I know, I just don't think it's as innocent as saying "no physical harm was occurring".

I say, it hasn't happened YET. Pedophiles don't just wake up one day and realize today is the day I violate a child. They work up to it, same as serial killers.

If getting an old school whoopin is the y in the road he needed to veer onto the better path, then it was worth it.

I understand the legal aspect and I value my freedom very much, so I guess I'm buying pepper spray tonight. :)

Sensei

09-11-13, 11:38

Do you feel said pervert may hesitate to jerk off, naked, to his neighbors daughters next time?

I'm sure I'll be in a minority on this, but does anybody feel anymore that, if you put yourself in a position to get your ass beat, it may just happen?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Don't want beaten half to death? Feel free not to pleasure yourself, naked, to a guys underage daughters, while trespassing on the property of a convict. Just sayin.

If you are OK with the suspension of somebody else's right to due process, don't be surprised when somebody else is OK with the suspension of your right to keep and bear arms. We are a nation of laws, not emotion. Our nationed is weakend every time we suspend Constitutional rights because it feels good. While most of us empathize with the father, he clearly broke the law - flagrantly. It's not as if he confronted the guy on his property; he chased the guy down the road with a posse to exact his revenge. That may fly in Russia or Syria, but this is the US.

Sensei

09-11-13, 11:45

I know, I just don't think it's as innocent as saying "no physical harm was occurring".

I say, it hasn't happened YET. Pedophiles don't just wake up one day and realize today is the day I violate a child. They work up to it, same as serial killers.

If getting an old school whoopin is the y in the road he needed to veer onto the better path, then it was worth it.

I understand the legal aspect and I value my freedom very much, so I guess I'm buying pepper spray tonight. :)

Now we are punishing criminals for their potential future crimes a la Minority Report? I'd say that you've been watching a little too much Tom Cruise. Then again, a vomit stick to the junk might be just what the doctor ordered.

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 11:48

If you are OK with the suspension of somebody else's right to due process, don't be surprised when somebody else is OK with the suspension of your right to keep and bear arms. We are a nation of laws, not emotion. Our nationed is weakend every time we suspend Constitutional rights because it feels good. While most of us empathize with the father, he clearly broke the law - flagrantly. It's not as if he confronted the guy on his property; he chased the guy down the road with a posse to exact his revenge. That may fly in Russia or Syria, but this is the US.

Fair enough.

So, if he caught him outside the window, Oscar Meyer in hand, and handled it without a posse, then it's ok cuz the guy's a filthy pervert? Or he still should just scold him and hope the LE response is fast?

I understand your greater point, but some things are greater than "the greater good" and the preservation of my little girls innocence is one of them.

I don't disagree that he broke the law as its written. Hopefully he'll get a very sympathetic judge/jury if it gets that far.

For what it's worth, I'm not openly advocating for vigilante justice, but I sure as hell am not sympathetic to the pervert and I feel he got what one should expect if they make such poor decisions.

I don't know how I'd handle it, but I like the pepper spray idea. :)

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 11:53

Now we are punishing criminals for their potential future crimes a la Minority Report? I'd say that you've been watching a little too much Tom Cruise. Then again, a vomit stick to the junk might be just what the doctor ordered.

You're reading too much into it. I'm simply saying if you do what he did, you shouldn't be surprised at the outcome.

And yes, I very much feel that what he was doing would lead to worse crimes. If you don't, then move your daughter in next door and have a barbecue with him. I bet you won't though, right?

It's not punishing future crime, it's dealing with current crime in a manner harsh enough to dissuade future crime.

Army Chief

09-11-13, 11:59

I know, I just don't think it's as innocent as saying "no physical harm was occurring".

I say, it hasn't happened YET. Pedophiles don't just wake up one day and realize today is the day I violate a child. They work up to it, same as serial killers.

Tracking.

I'm thinking, based upon the implied pathology of what we think we know about this guy is that he simply has a sexual addiction that could fall well-short of active or intended pedophilia. I'm not sure where the cut line is, or should be, when we're talking about the age of girls, but I think we would all have to admit that many teens present a very different kind of sexual enticement than the average 8 or 9 year old. Not something I respond to personally, but I'm simply observing that many teen girls seek to look and act older, and some are careless about rather promiscuous markers.

I won't pretend to justify any of this; merely trying to ascertain if the guy was just a sex addict/creep or a potential "in your room at night" threat. Seems like he's more of a casual thrill-seeker by nature, but I can see why you might not be willing to roll the dice on that.

Fully with you on the progression, though, from relatively innocuous sexual aberrances to those things which lead to much darker places. Some will surely disagree, but I'm not sure how you make a compelling argument that progressive de-sensitization to this sort of thing over time does not take a toll, and push the weak to pursue even bolder and riskier conduct in seeking to sate their lusts. Different topic, but by no means irrelevant.

AC

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 12:05

In a perfect world, said sex addict will have gotten the necessary "counseling" to prevent him from traveling farther down that road and convict father will realize how valuable his family is and quit beating his kids and potential pedophiles and we can all sing cumbaya. :)

No pepper spray required.

Honu

09-11-13, 12:14

a POSSE :) ahhahahahaha

yeah his kid and his friend !
lets see his kid went out side saw what was happening and screamed ! as a dad I would come running if I was at my buds house I would run out with him also if my best friends kid was screaming outside

yeah I think quite a few might chase a guy a couple doors down in a small neighborhood that can be a very short distance ?

he and his posse :) again great play on words

fact is if the guy was not outside the other guys 13 and 15 year old daughters rooms naked at 2:30 in the morning playing with themselves nothing would have happened

1) He gathered a posse.
2) He chased the guy down the street.
3) He and his posse beat the guy so severely that he was put in an ICU.

Sensei

09-11-13, 12:26

Had the father confronted the guy on his property during the act, he probably would have gotten a pass for "roughly" restraining the guy until police arrived provided that he did not inflict any life or limb threatening injuries and local laws allow a citizen's arrest in this manner. I have no problem with some injuries if the guy resists or gets violent on the homeowner's property so long as there is some semblance of proportional force. Things start to get complicated when you gather 2 or 3 other vatos to help you and start to chase the guy off your property. The line is clearly crossed when you and your vatos dish out some discipline to teach the guy a lesson.

Had I found the guy peeping, I probably would have held him at gun point until police arrived while on my property, but not chased him down the road to initiate a confrontation. Then again it's doubtful that I'd ever face such a situation since my German Shepherd (and inlaw's Caucasian Ovsharka) love to bite things that dangle...

GeorgiaBoy

09-11-13, 12:56

Ahh, well in that case I see what Honu was getting out. No need to apologize as you and I seldom agree on topics.

But I'm failing to see how we can't find at least a little common ground here.

The father didn't just "protect" his daughter. "Protect" would have been to go outside, hold at gunpoint or otherwise restrain the peeping tom, wait for the police to arrive, and have him arrested. That's civilized, by the book methodology.

But this guy went beyond "protection". He chased the perp off of his property, and to uses Sensei's terms, formed a "posse" of two other individuals, ran the perp down, became judge, jury, and [practically] executioner, beat the perp to a pulp, and you believe he should get off Scott Free?

The perp has a right to due process. Street justice negates due process, and is immoral and illegal. The Constitution protects criminal defendants' rights just as much as it protects any other right.

Ryno12

09-11-13, 12:57

SteyrAUG

09-11-13, 14:01

He should face charges. The perp wasn't trying to break in as far as we know. He was pulling the mushroom outside the window. So the father wasn't really "protecting" anyone.

He should have called 911 and then told him to leave or if law allows he could have restrained him and made a citizens arrest.

As FUBAR as it is, beating someone half to death isn't the answer and it's not different than shooting someone for shoplifting.

I disagree. At a minimum the father was protecting them from indecent exposure. Also being naked in another persons yard jacking off to their 13-16 year old daughters is quite a bit beyond simple "inappropriate behavior."

This is the kind of indecent exposure the sex offender registry was intended for (unlike somebody pissing in a park at night).

Ryno12

09-11-13, 14:09

Deleted to protect the innocent. ;)

Sensei

09-11-13, 14:21

I disagree. At a minimum the father was protecting them from indecent exposure. Also being naked in another persons yard jacking off to their 13-16 year old daughters is quite a bit beyond simple "inappropriate behavior."

This is the kind of indecent exposure the sex offender registry was intended for (unlike somebody pissing in a park at night).

Given that the exhibition had already occurred and the perv was chased down the road, I think the father was acting more on retribution than protection instincts. That is unless you subscribe to the precrime philosophy put forward by others that the father was protecting his daughter from future self-gratification displays and possible molestation.

As for your second point, I agree that the perv's actions should land him on the sex offender registry. Does anyone know if the voyerism of a minor charge carry a sex offense designation?

Ryno12

09-11-13, 14:29

Army Chief

09-11-13, 14:37

Given the recent LGBT apotheosis in our culture, I'm left to wonder -- and not entirely facetiously -- how long conduct like this will even be considered wrong. Pedaphilia, voyeurism, or whatever territory this may happen to tread into, may just be something natural, and our bigotry misplaced. I mean, nobody actually got hurt by this guy's actions, right?

Obviously, my moral code is bit more conservative than most, so I find all of it pretty reprehensible, but you can see how this could be a slippery slope. Who says what is right and what is wrong, and more to the point, what do they base these opinions upon?

Just rhetorical. No real need to go down a rabbit trail.

AC

Honu

09-11-13, 14:45

criminals work up to things if they dont get out of it
seems guys who fight eventually get a battery charge ?
people who steal eventually up the game to something large
pervs eventually rape or molest

and some things again like a guy decides he is going to beat you up at a bar and you get in a fight defending yourself and you get accused and prosecuted and loose !
eventually you learn dont go to seedy bars and avoid places like that

now you walking down the street and get clocked is not the same and is predatory but again you are the victim %100 but you did not go to the persons house naked and play with yourself out side his childs room !

things like rape and molestation are %100 one sided ! and almost always predatory in nature again this guy was on the other guys property naked at 2:30 in the morning !

this perv very well might have already raped kids ? and very very very good chance he will

as my brother has said when he was a lawyer and now prosecutor nobody has ever done something for the first time when they see him its just the first time they got caught ! and often the problem is they were caught with all the signs many times before leading up to it and often you find out they were kinda let off the hook many times before hand !

IMHO would be better to just chop this loosers junk off and be done with him so it wont escalate

SteyrAUG

09-11-13, 14:59

Had the father confronted the guy on his property during the act

So the fact that the criminal ran away, lessens the severity of his crime?

I'm gonna disagree, if you do something that earns you an ass beating on my lawn, it still earns you an assbeating if I catch you at the mall a week later.

SteyrAUG

09-11-13, 15:02

Given that the exhibition had already occurred and the perv was chased down the road, I think the father was acting more on retribution than protection instincts. That is unless you subscribe to the precrime philosophy put forward by others that the father was protecting his daughter from future self-gratification displays and possible molestation.

As for your second point, I agree that the perv's actions should land him on the sex offender registry. Does anyone know if the voyerism of a minor charge carry a sex offense designation?

It's not so much pre crime I'm preventing. It's that a naked man jacking off to my (hypothetical) two teenage daughters on MY property is completely unacceptable and comes with severe penalties.

If you run and I have to chase after you, the penalties can become more severe because I'm angry that you were in my yard naked, jacking off to my teenage daughters AND I'm now more angry because you made me run after you on top of it.

Safetyhit

09-11-13, 15:32

Given the recent LGBT apotheosis in our culture, I'm left to wonder -- and not entirely facetiously -- how long conduct like this will even be considered wrong. Pedaphilia, voyeurism, or whatever territory this may happen to tread into, may just be something natural, and our bigotry misplaced. I mean, nobody actually got hurt by this guy's actions, right?

Made this argument here numerous times. If marriage is not man and woman then it is essentially whatever someone interprets it to be. At some point we could see not just incest become acceptable (two consenting adults) but also possibly consensual pedaphilia for post-pubescent girls. After all we are talking about two consenting, sexually mature people and no one is getting hurt...depending or your context and perception of course.

Makes one wonder how Elvis pulled off a physical relationship with a 14 year old back in such a conservative time, as even today that would be viciously demonized.

kwelz

09-11-13, 15:55

Belmont31R

09-11-13, 15:57

Should be able to use force to prevent a person fleeing the scene of a crime.

Army Chief

09-11-13, 16:07

I honestly expected more. How is it so hard to confuse a consenting relationship between adults with acts that don't have a consenting party.

As for the OP. I think it has more to do with the guy chasing the criminal down.

Not saying I would not have done the same....

Overstated a bit for effect, but I do understand where you're coming from.

My point is that some could call this "victimless" or benign because there was no physical contact, and presumably, the curtains were not properly drawn. Again, we don't know the specifics, but once we begin to go down the consenting adults trail, we get to debate what constitutes "consent," and who can really give it. What is an "adult?" Why is a post-pubescent individual with a desire for sexual activity (let's assume) to be safeguarded from pursuing that? Why should a caring and experienced adult be prohibited from sharing themselves with a curious and willing teen girl or boy? On and on it goes ...

These are silly questions as you and I might consider them today, but we would do well to remember that some of the others were also silly questions just a few years ago, and now the tables have turned almost entirely. It isn't the behaviour or preference that I'm really queueing-in on here, anyway; it is how standards of morality are determined, how they change and where the limits of propriety are to be drawn. More of a philosophical exercise than a practical indictment of anyone's particular choices.

As to use of force to prevent fleeing the scene of a crime, we need to remember that the force needs to be commensurate with the crime, and in this case, the crime was looking into a window. The potential for it to have become something more in the eyes of the father is, I think, relevant, but I don't know how much play you would get with a prosecutor if you took it to extremes ... which is kind of what happened here, no?

AC

NWPilgrim

09-11-13, 16:07

I have no idea how I would have reacted in this situation but I can sympathize with the father's blind rage discovering a naked guy outside whacking off, and that his son and friend ran after him to help out. They were just that, not a posse or vigilantes.

I think the problem is that our civilized society has eliminated the option for fathers to mete out punishment on the spot to those who threaten their families or even themselves. As a father, the Polly Klaas case is etched into my brain and would be the first thing I thought of. So I would have thought this was a prelude to a break-in either that night or some night soon.

We had a family that we were sort of friends with years ago and their son molested the young girls he was baby sitting (bad juju to let 15 yr old boys babysit young girls...). He would have been much better served in life had the father when finding out just beat the tar out of him even to CCU level than having been sent to prison for 5 years (yes that happened). His life was ruined and prison nearly killed up and he suffered far worse than he gave. I think he would have preferred the beat and learn his lesson.

I don't know where that line is between "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" (or, come onto my lawn naked and don't be surprised if you get beat) and vigilantism. But we have certainly lost an element of manliness and civility when we totally eliminate the option for a beating down lesson. To me, vigilantism is more about thinking you know someone did something and you track them down without knowing for certain. But when you catch someone red handed that is a different situation.

Anyway, this will not end well thanks to our justice system. The Dad will be ruined, his family will be traumatized, and the pervert will heal at taxpayer expense and know that society says it is OK the dad was the bad guy so he will re-offend and another girl and family will suffer. Or he might be embolden to do a kidnapping like Polly Klaas.

kwelz

09-11-13, 16:11

Overstated a bit for effect, but I do understand where you're coming from.

My point is that some could call this "victimless" or benign because there was no physical contact, and presumably, the curtains were not properly drawn. Again, we don't know the specifics, but once we begin to go down the consenting adults trail, we get to debate what constitutes "consent," and who can really give it. What is an "adult?" Why is a post-pubescent individual with a desire for sexual activity (let's assume) to be safeguarded from pursuing that? Why should a caring and experienced adult be prohibited from sharing themselves with a curious and willing teen girl or boy? On and on it goes ...

These are silly questions as you and I might consider them today, but we would do well to remember that some of the others were also silly questions just a few years ago, and now the tables have turned almost entirely. It isn't the behaviour or preference that I'm really queueing-in on here, anyway; it is how standards of morality are determined, how they change and where the limits of propriety are to be drawn. More of a philosophical exercise than a practical indictment of anyone's particular choices.

As to use of force to prevent fleeing the scene of a crime, we need to remember that the force needs to be commensurate with the crime, and in this case, the crime was looking into a window. The potential for it to have become something more in the eyes of the father is, I think, relevant, but I don't know how much play you would get with a prosecutor if you took it to extremes ... which is kind of what happened here, no?

AC

Fair enough.

And yeah, as I said. I would have reacted the same way or even more strongly. I was just stating why I thought they may have charged him. Not that I thought they should have.

skydivr

09-11-13, 17:01

The problem is that you are all thinking that the pervert will stop if he gets caught. Most of them don't. Think the repeat DUI, regardless of how many previous DUI's he has, still goes out driving drunk. He gets caught, he does some jail time, and when he gets out - he does it again, and again - until he kills someone, and ONLY THEN does he maybe do some prison time. The pedophile is 100 times worse. The really serious cases cannot and will not stop. Why do you think we have an offender registry? What happens when a incident happens? The first thing the law does is - check and interview those nearby on the registry, and how often do they find their offender? A LOT. Like a rabid dog.

Chasing him down out of the yard and putting him in ICU may be considered not justifiable. Putting him OUT in your own yard...you can't see, and you are in fear of your life...

Iraqgunz

09-11-13, 17:07

He wasn't protecting them from anything. He was pissed off and wanted retribution. Had the dude been trying to get into the window that would have been completely different.

Had he been beat down on the property that would be different. I'm surprised that you would be OK with this. It's no different than shooting someone (whether they are killed or not) for breaking into a car or stealing a garden hose.

I disagree. At a minimum the father was protecting them from indecent exposure. Also being naked in another persons yard jacking off to their 13-16 year old daughters is quite a bit beyond simple "inappropriate behavior."

This is the kind of indecent exposure the sex offender registry was intended for (unlike somebody pissing in a park at night).

Army Chief

09-11-13, 17:14

Say ... whatever happened to good, old chemical castration, anyway?

AC

NCPatrolAR

09-11-13, 17:14

Charges for everyone involved seems appropriate

Eta: typical sensationalism I've come to expect from the Blaze

Ryno12

09-11-13, 17:15

For those against what the father did, what do you feel is the appropriate action by the father & what should the punishment by law be?

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skydivr

09-11-13, 17:26

Say ... whatever happened to good, old chemical castration, anyway?

AC

That would be considered cruel and inhuman....

skydivr

09-11-13, 17:27

For those against what the father did, what do you feel is the appropriate action by the father & what should the punishment by law be?

Sent via Tapatalk

I'd say that depends on what his previous history looks like....

clean record? upstanding citizen? veteran? I'd say 12 months probation....

Safetyhit

09-11-13, 17:29

I honestly expected more.

That's because you have your own very liberal bias on the topic and believe others should think as you do as a result. Doesn't work that way.

How is it so hard to confuse a consenting relationship between adults with acts that don't have a consenting party.

This statement could very easily have been replaced with "How hard is it to understand that marriage is and always has been between a man and a woman"?

And like the others you have never been able to answer my question as to why an adult dog can't suffice as a spouse if it demonstrates complete compliance and devotion. Who are you to say that dog doesn't want to be married because you have the disadvantage of not knowing what it feels verbatim?

And who are you to say that 18 should be the legal age of consent?

Anyway the guy is a scumbag who deserved a couple punches pior to his arrest. The rest was overkill.

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 17:31

My daughters are worth more than a garden hose.

Nothing changes the fact that a mere pane of glass separates the sexual predator from what should be your most prized possession.

It's still this simple. Don't trespass on my property to violate my daughters, run no risk of severe beating.

Ryno12

09-11-13, 17:32

This statement could very easily have been replaced with "How hard is it to understand that marriage is and always has been between a man and a woman"?

I love you, man.

:D

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Ryno12

09-11-13, 17:40

I'm gonna disagree, if you do something that earns you an ass beating on my lawn, it still earns you an assbeating if I catch you at the mall a week later.

My daughters are worth more than a garden hose.

Just wanted to say that both these posts made me laugh out loud.

Anyway, carry on...

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fixit69

09-11-13, 17:44

Charges for everyone involved seems appropriate

Eta: typical sensationalism I've come to expect from the Blaze

I have to disagree but I have the bias of having a little girl. Would you expand more other than the "possibly" over reaction of the girls father. Not starting shit, just another view from someone I respect.

Ryno12

09-11-13, 17:44

I'd say that depends on what his previous history looks like....

clean record? upstanding citizen? veteran? I'd say 12 months probation....

Actually, I was meaning the pervert. What should have the dad done to him & what penalty should the pervert face from the law?

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wake.joe

09-11-13, 17:49

I would wear the felony proudly. Make a damn T-Shirt.

"I protected my daughter and all I got was a Felony."

Yes, I realize the man-hunt part of the story.

Alaskapopo

09-11-13, 18:20

I don't think many people would have faulted the dad for apprehending the pervert and getting in a few licks in the heat of the moment but to beat him to the point of ICU which I missed in an earlier post is excessive by most peoples standards. Still I doubt this guy will get convicted if there is any fathers on the jury with daughters.
pat

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 18:28

But I'm failing to see how we can't find at least a little common ground here.

The father didn't just "protect" his daughter. "Protect" would have been to go outside, hold at gunpoint or otherwise restrain the peeping tom, wait for the police to arrive, and have him arrested. That's civilized, by the book methodology.

But this guy went beyond "protection". He chased the perp off of his property, and to uses Sensei's terms, formed a "posse" of two other individuals, ran the perp down, became judge, jury, and [practically] executioner, beat the perp to a pulp, and you believe he should get off Scott Free?

The perp has a right to due process. Street justice negates due process, and is immoral and illegal. The Constitution protects criminal defendants' rights just as much as it protects any other right.

Yeap, I know this is why when topics such as these come up there is a clear divide amongst our forum members.

I think if Thomas Jefferson had caught a naked man outside Monticello beating meat to his under aged daughter he would have thomahawked the SOB to death, wiped the blood from his brow, and went right back inside writing the founding documents.

NCPatrolAR

09-11-13, 18:58

I have to disagree but I have the bias of having a little girl. Would you expand more other than the "possibly" over reaction of the girls father. Not starting shit, just another view from someone I respect.

The father's actions would certainly be classified as an over-reaction. Sorry, chasing someone after your property is one thing. Chasing him with 2 of your friends/relatives in tow and then beating him to the point that he is in ICU is uncalled for.

It appears that everyone in the neighborhood knows the guy. Chase him off your property and let the police deal with it from there.

Sensei

09-11-13, 19:11

How do you prevent these crimes from growing into something bigger? Do you feel the punishment he received from the law alone will be enough?
Honest questions, not attacking your position.

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Truth in sentencing would be a big step in the right direction. Unlike many on this forum, I'm not of the belief that we incarcerate too many citizens. If anything, people like this deserve more than the 18 months that they face. Unfortunately, our current revolving door system of parole and plea bargins only gives ammunition to the vigilante crowd. However, that does not mean that we should allow victims and their families be judge, jury, and punisher.

It's not so much pre crime I'm preventing. It's that a naked man jacking off to my (hypothetical) two teenage daughters on MY property is completely unacceptable and comes with severe penalties.

If you run and I have to chase after you, the penalties can become more severe because I'm angry that you were in my yard naked, jacking off to my teenage daughters AND I'm now more angry because you made me run after you on top of it.

So, you feel angry which allows you to suspend someone's due process rights. That's cool - as long as you feel better by punishing the alleged perpetrator.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 19:12

It appears that everyone in the neighborhood knows the guy. Chase him off your property and let the police deal with it from there.

Since we are spit balling here anyway . . .

Maybe that is the problem here. Maybe people call 911 everytime this guy goes all pervy on the block and he is shown the revolving door, if that. It would appear the pervert picked the wrong house this time. Maybe this will put an end to his reign of sexual deviancy in the neighborhood or at least make him think twice about it. This is the type of guy who winds up with girls chained in his basement and everyone is shocked and asks "how could this have happend" "why didn't we see this coming" . . .

NWPilgrim

09-11-13, 19:13

Yeap, I know this is why when topics such as these come up there is a clear divide amongst our forum members.

I think if Thomas Jefferson had caught a naked man outside Monticello beating meat to his under aged daughter he would have thomahawked the SOB to death, wiped the blood from his brow, and went right back inside writing the founding documents.

I'm saving this one! Might come in handy some day.

Sensei

09-11-13, 19:15

I think if Thomas Jefferson had caught a naked man outside Monticello beating meat to his under aged daughter he would have thomahawked the SOB to death, wiped the blood from his brow, and went right back inside writing the founding documents.

That, or gone back to banging one of his many slaves. I suppose a duel with pistols would have been acceptable since we are using 18th Century standards of behavior.

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 19:31

That, or gone back to banging one of his many slaves. I suppose a duel with pistols would have been acceptable since we are using 18th Century standards of behavior.

It was legal and socially acceptable to have slaves then. I'm pretty sure it was illegal and socially unacceptable even then to jerk off outside the window of your neighbor's little girl.

18th century standards and all.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 19:34

That, or gone back to banging one of his many slaves. I suppose a duel with pistols would have been acceptable since we are using 18th Century standards of behavior.

Well if we were on 18th Century standards of behavior we wouldn't even be having this conversation as that whole community would have tarred and feathered the pervert long before this juncture in time.

Do you guys really think that the men who owned slaves and defeated the greatest military machine the world had ever seen up to that point gave a second thought to the notion of "civil liberties" for pedophiles? But somehow we are better than them for exposing our very future (aka children) to the dangers of sexual predators on a daily basis in the name of "justice" because we don't have the balls to do what needs to be done.

Honu

09-11-13, 19:59

not sure how they sensationalize it ?

kinda like the black guy that stood up said he is going to get the next white guy and beat him to death in NY this last week !
funny how MSNBC or the liberal media never reported that !
only place you seem to hear is on the blaze cause they are not afraid to report it ?

Charges for everyone involved seems appropriate

Eta: typical sensationalism I've come to expect from the Blaze

GeorgiaBoy

09-11-13, 20:51

I think if Thomas Jefferson had caught a naked man outside Monticello beating meat to his under aged daughter he would have thomahawked the SOB to death, wiped the blood from his brow, and went right back inside writing the founding documents.

Hmm, I doubt it would have gone down quite like that. He would probably have him arrested, and would have desired some sort of bizarre punishment (such as castration, like he desired for sodomy and rape). The perp would have most likely been convicted, despite the best attempts by his attorney, John Adams. ;)

Do you guys really think that the men who owned slaves and defeated the greatest military machine the world had ever seen up to that point gave a second thought to the notion of "civil liberties" for pedophiles? But somehow we are better than them and thus expose our very future (aka children) to the dangers of sexual predators on a daily basis in the name of "justice" because we don't have the balls to do what needs to be done.

Just as the founders were ahead of their times in civil/human/natural rights and theory of the role of government, we shouldn't stay behind in 18th century standards either.

Pedophiles/sexual perverts are the scum of the Earth but that doesn't negate their civil liberties and rights to due process. I'm really not sure someone as libertarian-minded as you are could believe that.

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 21:03

Hmm, I doubt it would have gone done quite like that. He would probably have him arrested, and would have desired some sort of bizarre punishment (such as castration, like he desired for sodomy and rape). The perp would have most likely been convicted, despite the best attempts by his attorney, John Adams. ;)

The only problem with that is there was no one to call to arrest him. They had to take care of business themselves, most of which was done at the community level, remember this is pre Police and Sheriff's. In fact, they didn't have a NEED for a police force. For some strange reason they just didn't have problems like this, hmmm . . .

Pedophiles/sexual perverts are the scum of the Earth but that doesn't negate their civil liberties and rights to due process. I'm really not sure someone as libertarian-minded as you are could believe that.

Well IMHO all that goes out the window when a person makes the choice to victimize another. What is the worse that is going to happen to a child molester/raptists/peeping tom in our modern utopia? Register (if they follow the law) and be put on a list? There is a reason we have capital punishment and there is a reason why it use to be public and brutal.

Alaskapopo

09-11-13, 21:18

The only problem with that is there was no one to call to arrest him. They had to take care of business themselves, most of which was done at the community level, remember this is pre Police and Sheriff's. In fact, they didn't have a NEED for a police force. For some strange reason they just didn't have problems like this, hmmm . . .

Well IMHO all that goes out the window when a person makes the choice to victimize another. What is the worse that is going to happen to a child molester/raptists/peeping tom in our modern utopia? Register (if they follow the law) and be put on a list? There is a reason we have capital punishment and there is a reason why it use to be public and brutal.
They actually did have police except they were called night watchmen. We have had the equivalent of police for a long time. They did not just hang people without a trial. They had a justice system too.
Pat

GeorgiaBoy

09-11-13, 21:23

The only problem with that is there was no one to call to arrest him. They had to take care of business themselves, most of which was done at the community level, remember this is pre Police and Sheriff's. In fact, they didn't have a NEED for a police force. For some strange reason they just didn't have problems like this, hmmm . . .

Well they did, maybe not the same way as today, but sheriffs and police-like militias did exist.

But why would you want to live in a society were the judges, juries, and executioners are the "community" outside of a court of law? That sounds like a lawless society to me with no standards and who is and isn't guilty is the opinion of the mob.

There is a reason we have capital punishment and there is a reason why it use to be public and brutal.

That was because western society was fairly brutal in general. Some of the worst torture devices in history came from medieval Europe.

There are a lot of brutal societies left in the world that do still have community justice and brutal punishments. Brazil, Honduras, Mexico, etc come to mind in the liveleak videos I have come across showing what mobs are capable of doing to those who are "guilty".

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 21:33

They actually did have police except they were called night watchmen. We have had the equivalent of police for a long time. They did not just hang people without a trial. They had a justice system too.
Pat

The country was not even founded yet, there was no "justice system" established. If caught in the act, a person was dealt with. Shit like that was not "tolerated" as it is today.

Alaskapopo

09-11-13, 21:39

The country was not even founded yet, there was no "justice system" established. If caught in the act, a person was dealt with. Shit like that was not "tolerated" as it is today.

They had they system set up from the British and when we formed our own nation we started our own police forces. It was one of those more interesting topics I studied while earning my degree in Criminal Justice. Although the system was far from perfect. People were accused of being witches and delt with as you put it. I think we have come a long way since then.
Pat

SteyrAUG

09-11-13, 21:46

So, you feel angry which allows you to suspend someone's due process rights. That's cool - as long as you feel better by punishing the alleged perpetrator.

Hardly. Lots of things make me angry nearly every day and I never punch anyone, I often don't even take the time to let the idiot know they are making me angry. For example, I only honk my horn in order to attempt to prevent an accident, rarely do I use the horn to sound my displeasure at the actions of some dipshit that have already happened.

But if somebody does something that justifies a physical confrontation (and I think this situation easily warrants an ass beating) then the fact that the guilty party ran and attempted to escape really doesn't change the situation much except for the new location of the warranted ass beating.

I understand you probably don't agree, but we just don't agree on some things.

If it were me, I'd just have to plead "temporary sanity."

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 21:52

Well they did, maybe not the same way as today, but sheriffs and police-like militias did exist.

Militias?! What, you mean like a bunch right wing nut jobs running around with guns dispatching evil doers. :D

But why would you want to live in a society were the judges, juries, and executioners are the "community" outside of a court of law? That sounds like a lawless society to me with no standards and who is and isn't guilty is the opinion of the mob.

Well I never said I want to live the Mad Max wastelands, rather I am fed up with our society coddling those who harm others.

That was because western society was fairly brutal in general. Some of the worst torture devices in history came from medieval Europe.

True that, the Europeans could have learned a thing or two about torture from the Chinese and the Arabs however, they had a couple thousand years on them.

There are a lot of brutal societies left in the world that do still have community justice and brutal punishments. Brazil, Honduras, Mexico, etc come to mind in the liveleak videos I have come across showing what mobs are capable of doing to those who are "guilty".

I recall a vid (liveleak) of a Chechen father and his sons dumping four Kalashnikovs into a guy who raped their daughter/sister.

Alaskapopo

09-11-13, 21:55

Militias?! What, you mean like a bunch right wing nut jobs running around with guns dispatching evil doers. :D

Well I never said I want to live the Mad Max wastelands, rather I am fed up with our society coddling those who harm others.

True that, the Europeans could have learned a thing or two about torture from the Chinese and the Arabs however, they had a couple thousand years on them.

I recall a vid (liveleak) of Chechen father and his sons dumping four Kalashnikovs into a guy who raped their daughter/sister.

Everyone agrees that we should not coddle criminals. The problem with vigilante justice however is there is no checks and balances. What if someone accused a neighbor of something they did not do and they kill them? I think you would agree that is not ok. So we have to have law and order and a means to effect it. Vigilante justice seldom works as we believe it should. Most of the time its driven by emotions and not facts and the facts they often have are incorrect.
Pat

Moose-Knuckle

09-11-13, 21:58

They had they system set up from the British and when we formed our own nation we started our own police forces. It was one of those more interesting topics I studied while earning my degree in Criminal Justice. Although the system was far from perfect. People were accused of being witches and delt with as you put it. I think we have come a long way since then.
Pat

Pretty interesting topic indeed, from Wiki:

In British North America, policing was initially provided by local elected officials. For instance, the New York Sheriff's Office was founded in 1626, and the Albany County Sheriff's Department in the 1660s. In the colonial period, policing was provided by elected sheriffs and local militias.

In 1789 the U.S. Marshals Service was established, followed by other federal services such as the U.S. Parks Police (1791)[19] and U.S. Mint Police (1792).[20] The first city police services were established in Philadelphia in 1751,[21] Richmond, Virginia in 1807,[22] Boston in 1838,[23] and New York in 1845.[24] The U.S. Secret Service was founded in 1865 and was for some time the main investigative body for the federal government.[25]

IIRC the witch trial thing was even before British Common Law was established. When a bunch of Pilgrims where running around in the woods shooting at large birds that gobbled.

Pork Chop

09-11-13, 22:01

Everyone agrees that we should not coddle criminals. The problem with vigilante justice however is there is no checks and balances. What if someone accused a neighbor of something they did not do and they kill them? I think you would agree that is not ok. So we have to have law and order and a means to effect it. Vigilante justice seldom works as we believe it should. Most of the time its driven by emotions and not facts and the facts they often have are incorrect.
Pat

I actually agree with you, Pat.

However, in this case, the dude was caught butt naked, wanking it outside the window, so the facts and emotions seem pretty clear cut.

GeorgiaBoy

09-11-13, 22:09

IIRC the which trial thing was even before British Common Law was established. When a bunch of Pilgrims where running around in the woods shooting at large birds that gobbled.

And that is also when the colonization was sparse, diverse, and concentrated.

The Puritans were a group among themselves who truly epitomized the concept of "taking care of their own". They had "courts" but they could barely be considered "fair and just".

If you were accused of witchcraft but didn't confess, your either going to die from the torture administered to convince you to confess (like Giles Corey), or be executed anyway.

Alaskapopo

09-11-13, 22:35

I actually agree with you, Pat.

However, in this case, the dude was caught butt naked, wanking it outside the window, so the facts and emotions seem pretty clear cut.

That is true and I can empathize with his emotions but beating him until an inch of his life seems excessive. How had he caught him raping his daughter I could totally understand and I think most people would understand as well. Also if the suspect was mentally ill as has been suggested that throws another kink in it. Our mental health system in this country has been seriously underfunded since Regan. Institutions were closed and those people were put on the street and the criminal justice system has had to take up the slack. Frankly crazy people don't belong in jail they belong in a mental institution. Most are wandering free and some are doing crap like this guy.
Pat

Sensei

09-11-13, 23:33

I see a lot of people writing about how they feel, what they think, and what they believe should happen in their little section of Nirvana. Unfortunately, I see very little in terms of what the law actually says about this situation.

From these writings, it seems the prevailing wisdom is that certain states suck at punishing child sex offenses. Therefore, victims should be able to suspend certain portions of the US Constitution (just the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments) so that a suitable punishment can be served against the alleged perpertrators. Perhaps we should not be suprised that progressives hold the first 2 Amendments in such contempt since we seem so content to wipe our collective ass with the rest of the document.

I have an idea: rather than suspend my Constitutional Rights, use all that pent-up energy to fix your own state laws.

Iraqgunz

09-11-13, 23:54

SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 00:01

Unfortunately, I see very little in terms of what the law actually says about this situation.

Yeah, because the laws on the books are never wrong.

There are so many things that are completely screwed up yet 100% lawful I don't even know where to start.

The Liebeck lawsuit where some idiot was awared 2.86 million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself was 100% lawful.

The OJ verdict was 100% lawful.

The 1994 Assault Weapon Ban was 100% lawful.

The SPLC lawsuit which awarded a AZ man's ranch to two illegal aliens because the property owner held them at gunpoint when they trespassed on his land was 100% lawful.

The Patriot Act is 100% lawful.

Obamacare is 100% lawful.

The SCOTUS decision to allow Eminent Domain for private use is 100% lawful.

But just because some lawyer won his case, Congress passed a bill or the SCOTUS makes a ruling doesn't mean it is correct or the way things should be.

Alaskapopo

09-12-13, 00:04

SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 00:05

I have an idea: rather than suspend my Constitutional Rights, use all that pent-up energy to fix your own state laws.

I have a better idea, if people just don't stand in my yard naked masturbating to my (hypothetical) underage daughters it won't even be an issue.

Nobody has the Constitutional right to be in my yard naked. It's not covered by free expression and that is a crime in it's own right.

But if you are cool with it, by all means we'll send all the naked weirdos over to your house. That way their rights will be protected.

SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 00:07

No system will ever be perfect and you pointed out some past flaws but overall we have the best justice system in the world.
Pat

Not sure about that, but I can't say for certain which one is better so no point in that debate.

That said, we can help our "less than perfect" legal system along by applying some "community standards" as needed.

Alaskapopo

09-12-13, 00:09

Not sure about that, but I can't say for certain which one is better so no point in that debate.

That said, we can help our "less than perfect" legal system along by applying some "community standards" as needed.

Have you watched the movie Mystic River. Its a good film and shows the dangers of vigilante justice. I suggest you watch it.
Pat

SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 00:20

In some states rape can be met with and stopped with deadly force in which case I would give him a medal.

I think some of our members here are acting too much on emotion and not enough with rational thought.

No, I do not condone his behavior and he probably deserved some licks. But, that's not the case here. I would rather that "he" be charged with the voyeurism charge and then assault charge against the father in which case he may have ended up behind bars for a longer time.

I suspect it could prove difficult to be calm, rational and objective when you discover a naked grown man in your yard masturbating to your underage daughters.

As an example, a few years back when I was working out in the driveway I had a very drunk, and mostly incoherent individual walk into my yard wanting to "challenge me." He could barely stand as he attempted to adopt what I assumed was intended to be some kind of fighting stance.

When I finally connected the dots and understood what he was trying to say I walked him back into the street with a hand on his collar and one wrist behind him. Had to do it twice and get him started down the road before he was on his way.

From a legal standpoint one might be able to assume he was on my property threatening me with violence. But I didn't "feel" threatened and I "believed" I could resolve the issue without having to hurt him at all.

But if my wife happened to be standing right next to me and the exact same thing happened my concern for her safety might have prevented me from assessing the situation in the same way and I might have accepted his challenge as an actual threat and responded accordingly. I probably wouldn't have had any of the same reservations about hurting him.

I know that isn't exactly the same as a guy who is "outside" when your family is "inside" but when you involve loved ones it can change priorities and mindset dramatically.

SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 00:27

Have you watched the movie Mystic River. Its a good film and shows the dangers of vigilante justice. I suggest you watch it.
Pat

I try not to get my values from films starring Sean Penn and Tim Robbins. And rest assured I understand the problems with vigilante justice. Just like with the actual legal system, individuals can sometimes get the wrong guy and punish an innocent man. That is never good and pretty much why we don't have lynchings.

But when you find a naked grown man masturbating in your yard, I'm sure it's pretty safe to assume what he is doing and I'm pretty sure if he runs your chances of catching another innocent naked grown man by mistake are slim.

Alaskapopo

09-12-13, 00:31

I try not to get my values from films starring Sean Penn and Tim Robbins. And rest assured I understand the problems with vigilante justice. Just like with the actual legal system, individuals can sometimes get the wrong guy and punish an innocent man. That is never good and pretty much why we don't have lynchings.

But when you find a naked grown man masturbating in your yard, I'm sure it's pretty safe to assume what he is doing and I'm pretty sure if he runs your chances of catching another innocent naked grown man by mistake are slim.

Vigilante justice gets it wrong more often than the justice system and their is no appeal when the mob screws up. I am not saying the naked man should go free but does he deserve to be beaten nearly to death I don't think so. Now if he had raped one of them that is a different story. The offense should determine the response. The solution for every crime is not death. The fact he was a grown man and naked makes me believe he was mentally ill. This guy probably belongs in a mental institution.
Pat

SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 01:57

Vigilante justice gets it wrong more often than the justice system and their is no appeal when the mob screws up. I am not saying the naked man should go free but does he deserve to be beaten nearly to death I don't think so. Now if he had raped one of them that is a different story. The offense should determine the response. The solution for every crime is not death. The fact he was a grown man and naked makes me believe he was mentally ill. This guy probably belongs in a mental institution.
Pat

I hope you get that I fully understand what you are saying and don't completely disagree with it. All I'm saying, is in this circumstance, if "I" was on the jury I'd probably give the father a lot of latitude.

I wouldn't want to pass a bill into law that says you can put random people into the ICU if you catch them outside naked but in this case I'm far more concerned for the parent being protective (even excessively) than the guy who doesn't get it isn't ok to go into the neighbors yard naked and masturbate to his two daughters.

And yeah, the guy probably does need to be under supervised care. It's a shame he instead ended up living in a regular neighborhood. Thank god this one somehow missed my block.

Moose-Knuckle

09-12-13, 03:22

Yeah, because the laws on the books are never wrong.

There are so many things that are completely screwed up yet 100% lawful I don't even know where to start.

The Liebeck lawsuit where some idiot was awared 2.86 million dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself was 100% lawful.

The OJ verdict was 100% lawful.

The 1994 Assault Weapon Ban was 100% lawful.

The SPLC lawsuit which awarded a AZ man's ranch to two illegal aliens because the property owner held them at gunpoint when they trespassed on his land was 100% lawful.

The Patriot Act is 100% lawful.

Obamacare is 100% lawful.

The SCOTUS decision to allow Eminent Domain for private use is 100% lawful.

But just because some lawyer won his case, Congress passed a bill or the SCOTUS makes a ruling doesn't mean it is correct or the way things should be.

The above coincides with my personal belief that all because something is illegal does not make it wrong and all because something is legal does not make it right.

I have a better idea, if people just don't stand in my yard naked masturbating to my (hypothetical) underage daughters it won't even be an issue.

Nobody has the Constitutional right to be in my yard naked. It's not covered by free expression and that is a crime in it's own right.

But if you are cool with it, by all means we'll send all the naked weirdos over to your house. That way their rights will be protected.

My sentiments exactly.

I try not to get my values from films starring Sean Penn and Tim Robbins. And rest assured I understand the problems with vigilante justice. Just like with the actual legal system, individuals can sometimes get the wrong guy and punish an innocent man. That is never good and pretty much why we don't have lynchings.

But when you find a naked grown man masturbating in your yard, I'm sure it's pretty safe to assume what he is doing and I'm pretty sure if he runs your chances of catching another innocent naked grown man by mistake are slim.

Your batting a thousand tonight! :cool:

Alpha Sierra

09-12-13, 03:38

So, does anyone think that we should allow 3rd party victims to seek revenge outside of the justice system?
This country would be in MUCH better shape and be MUCH more civilized if we did.

NWPilgrim

09-12-13, 03:52

I know it is a very loose application, but generally a perpetrator is held responsible for any injury or death that results from his criminal action even if he does not cause the injury directly. You rob a store and someone gets shot them you face assault or murder same as the actual shooter, right? And if your robber pal was shot by a victim could you not still be charged with his his jury?

Then why not say the pervert is responsible for his own beat down? If he had not committed the crime the beat down would not have happened. Once he initiates a crime he should be responsible for any fall out regardless of who does what because he initiated it.

Yeah, I know too loose but I like the principle.

Iraqgunz

09-12-13, 03:58

So I am going to flip the tables. How would you feel if it came out later that said "teen voyeur" was mentally retarded and the father beat his head in and killed him?

Would you still think that the father was justified?

If the guy was in the process of raping said teen girls, or going into the house then I would have a lot more understanding, but that's not what happened.

I also want to add (and I am not implying anything) that there have been plenty of examples of teen girls also doing crazy stuff on webcams as well as leading grown men on to doing stupid shit. Not implying that happened, but as with most of these scenarios we only have so much information.

I try not to get my values from films starring Sean Penn and Tim Robbins. And rest assured I understand the problems with vigilante justice. Just like with the actual legal system, individuals can sometimes get the wrong guy and punish an innocent man. That is never good and pretty much why we don't have lynchings.

But when you find a naked grown man masturbating in your yard, I'm sure it's pretty safe to assume what he is doing and I'm pretty sure if he runs your chances of catching another innocent naked grown man by mistake are slim.

Honu

09-12-13, 04:33

you are not flipping the tables ? you are just giving a scenario

how would you feel you find out he had a child who was 7 locked up in his house for the last 6 months he raped daily and it was his 4 th kid he did this to the others are buried in his back yard !

would you still think the father was justified ? or would you wish he did kill him !

and you can play what if all day long
the guy has sex parties ! and walks around naked etc..
if he had mental issues the neighbors and such most likely would have said something ! since most likely the father knows the guy is a perv he knew what was up ! again we might find out this is not the first time he was at the window ? and maybe he did do the correct thing many times and nothing happened !

and a lot of kids dont do stupid stuff on web cams !

chances are it will come out that the neighbors had called the police many times over the parties and walking around nude and nothing has happened cause he is allowed to do those things !

So I am going to flip the tables. How would you feel if it came out later that said "teen voyeur" was mentally retarded and the father beat his head in and killed him?

Would you still think that the father was justified?

If the guy was in the process of raping said teen girls, or going into the house then I would have a lot more understanding, but that's not what happened.

I also want to add (and I am not implying anything) that there have been plenty of examples of teen girls also doing crazy stuff on webcams as well as leading grown men on to doing stupid shit. Not implying that happened, but as with most of these scenarios we only have so much information.

Iraqgunz

09-12-13, 04:46

Who's scenario is closer to what happened? Yours or mine?

So let's forget the hypotheticals. The guy was committing a NON VIOLENT FELONY (possible plea to misdemeanor) and he was caught in the act. It didn't warrant a near death beating- point blank.

He would have more than likely been charged here and plenty of other places.

What's funny is it seems as if some people here were calling Zimmerman a "vigilante" and he should have gone home and yet they find it acceptable what happened here.

you are not flipping the tables ? you are just giving a scenario

how would you feel you find out he had a child who was 7 locked up in his house for the last 6 months he raped daily and it was his 4 th kid he did this to the others are buried in his back yard !

would you still think the father was justified ? or would you wish he did kill him !

and you can play what if all day long
the guy has sex parties ! and walks around naked etc..
if he had mental issues the neighbors and such most likely would have said something ! since most likely the father knows the guy is a perv he knew what was up ! again we might find out this is not the first time he was at the window ? and maybe he did do the correct thing many times and nothing happened !

and a lot of kids dont do stupid stuff on web cams !

chances are it will come out that the neighbors had called the police many times over the parties and walking around nude and nothing has happened cause he is allowed to do those things !

Alaskapopo

09-12-13, 04:52

This country would be in MUCH better shape and be MUCH more civilized if we did.

No we would have anarchy.
Pat

Honu

09-12-13, 05:44

who's is closer ? I made up a story like you did ! but I did not kill him in my story so I might be closer :) cause he is alive and that is the only part of our stories that we do know :)
you made up a story so I just flipped it :)

I have said to the other what if story !
lets stick to what we know :)
what we do know is a guy in his neighborhood leaves condoms/wrappers on the street has sex parties has been seeing walking around naked was outside someones house with no clothes on playing with himself and also happens to be they were minors !
neighbors say the perv is just that ! and the dad is a good guy

(speculation that with that kinda neighbor the police has been called out and ends up with a we did not see it no proof take pics next time or give us proof)

was this guy dumb and chase the guy down the street ? yeah
but I can see why he did it and most folks say good ! I am in that camp !
again we dont know the back story

this is not about GZ ?

IMHO most likely this is the first time a guy got a beating for it but most likely he has done this before and just not been caught ! people like this don't just do this once and they do tend to escalate what they do this is very well known fact

Who's scenario is closer to what happened? Yours or mine?

So let's forget the hypotheticals. The guy was committing a NON VIOLENT FELONY (possible plea to misdemeanor) and he was caught in the act. It didn't warrant a near death beating- point blank.

He would have more than likely been charged here and plenty of other places.

What's funny is it seems as if some people here were calling Zimmerman a "vigilante" and he should have gone home and yet they find it acceptable what happened here.

skydivr

09-12-13, 11:26

Actually, I was meaning the pervert. What should have the dad done to him & what penalty should the pervert face from the law?

Sent via Tapatalk

IMHO:

Caught in my yard? He belongs to me.

Caught down the street? A visit to the ICU seems a little excessive, but a good ass beating before he got arrested seems fair - pain avoidance therapy WORKS.

Penalty: Again, depends on his record. First offense? 6 months jail (so he can get counseling and they can find out if he's cureable), placement on the sex offender registry). More than one offense, he needs to make licence plates for a LONG time.

Just like DUI offenders, SOME will never do it again. SOME will never stop (and those have to be put away). SOME, once they cross a certain line (like Castro) should have gotten swift execution.

It's hard to tell, as hindsite is 20/20.

skydivr

09-12-13, 11:29

The father's actions would certainly be classified as an over-reaction. Sorry, chasing someone after your property is one thing. Chasing him with 2 of your friends/relatives in tow and then beating him to the point that he is in ICU is uncalled for.

It appears that everyone in the neighborhood knows the guy. Chase him off your property and let the police deal with it from there.

If everyone in the neighborhood "knows this guy" apparently the justice system wasn't functioning...which may also explain the 'excessiveness" exhibited by the dad/friends/relatives.

GeorgiaBoy

09-12-13, 11:34

This country would be in MUCH better shape and be MUCH more civilized if we did.

Um, No.

Sensei

09-12-13, 12:24

If everyone in the neighborhood "knows this guy" apparently the justice system wasn't functioning...which may also explain the 'excessiveness" exhibited by the dad/friends/relatives.

According to the article, the guy threw "sex parties" at his residence:

The neighbors also noted to KRQE that they had been trying to shield their children from sex parties Maho had been throwing at his home only a couple doors down. The local news station did find invitations online to such parties that match Maho’s address.

So, what should be the punishment for consenting adults screwing each other in mass at someone's private residence? Perhaps some of the libertarian purists can tell me how the State should intervene on this one since they've already suspended his Constitutional Rights to due process, a fair trial, humane punishment, etc. :rolleyes:

Pork Chop

09-12-13, 12:57

According to the article, the guy threw "sex parties" at his residence:

So, what should be the punishment for consenting adults screwing each other in mass at someone's private residence? Perhaps some of the libertarian purists can tell me how the State should intervene on this one since they've already suspended his Constitutional Rights to due process, a fair trail, a humane punishment, etc. :rolleyes:

No punishment if no laws are broken. It's perfectly ok to have "sex parties" in your own home, but if it spills outside and somehow becomes public spectacle or if I have to "shield" my kids from it (which insinuates that it isn't just indoors) and this behavior continues all the time and then you're found jerking off naked in the neighbors bushes, staring in his windows at his underage daughters, don't be surprised if your neighbors finally get tired of your shit.

I'm personally not advocating that his rights be deprived. I'm personally stressing the universal truth that actions have consequences.

Break the law by being a sexual degenerate on private property, DON'T BE SHOCKED WHEN YOUR NEIGHBOR BREAKS THE LAW AND KICKS THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF YOU.

Seems pretty common sense.

Ryno12

09-12-13, 13:11

Pork Chop

09-12-13, 13:22

This guy obviously has an addiction & as with most, it's likely to get worse before it gets better. He's already breaking laws to get his fix. What's he gonna do next? I'm a little surprised by that some don't think what he did isn't a big deal. The law definitely needs to be harder on these kind of ****sticks to make them think twice about their next move. Waiting until there is a missing 10 year old, doesn't fly with me.

Sent via Tapatalk

Careful, that's minority report stuff. Future crime is not illegal. It's been established.

Look, the guy is a sick ****, evidenced by beating off to underage girls.......NAKED, RIGHT OUTSIDE THEIR FREAKING WINDOW!!!!!!

I'm absolutely appalled at the "oh well, he doesn't have em chained up in the basement yet" attitude.

Some of you guys are so caught up in the beating the poor sexual deviant took that you're blind to what he was doing. He clearly has a problem. Maybe he didn't deserve the extreme severity of it, that's your prerogative, but nothing changes the fact that had he played with himself in his home to a nice porn DVD like everyone else, he'd be fine today.

Cross certain lines, be ready to accept the consequences.

Sensei

09-12-13, 13:48

Careful, that's minority report stuff. Future crime is not illegal. It's been established.

Look, the guy is a sick ****, evidenced by beating off to underage girls.......NAKED, RIGHT OUTSIDE THEIR FREAKING WINDOW!!!!!!

I'm absolutely appalled at the "oh well, he doesn't have em chained up in the basement yet" attitude.

Some of you guys are so caught up in the beating the poor sexual deviant took that you're blind to what he was doing. He clearly has a problem. Maybe he didn't deserve the extreme severity of it, that's your prerogative, but nothing changes the fact that had he played with himself in his home to a nice porn DVD like everyone else, he'd be fine today.

Cross certain lines, be ready to accept the consequences.

The issue at hand is whether the father gets a free pass for his actions. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has said or even implied that the perv gets a free pass for his performance. Quite the contrary, I hope that he serves every day of his maximum sentence and then picks-up a sex offender designation.

On the other hand, the law determines what a punishment should be after due process. Joe Citizen does not get to determine the consequences when they feel that a line has been crossed - no matter how heinous the perceived crime. If you don't like our system, feel free to visit any number of lawless societies in the Third World and see how the people live.

Pork Chop

09-12-13, 14:06

The issue at hand is whether the father gets a free pass for his actions. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has said or even implied that the perv gets a free pass for his performance. Quite the contrary, I hope that he serves every day of his maximum sentence and then picks-up a sex offender designation.

On the other hand, the law determines what a punishment should be after due process. Joe Citizen does not get to determine the consequences when they feel that a line has been crossed - no matter how heinous the perceived crime. If you don't like our system, feel free to visit any number of lawless societies in the Third World and see how the people live.

Fine, then I apologize for misunderstanding your position.

That being said, I never advocated the father get a free pass, either. He clearly broke the law also, however, I DO feel there should be a certain leniency shown to him due to the perceived threat to his daughters HE may have viewed in his neighbor.

The same as we would like to receive if we defended ourselves with force against a perceived threat. In that moment WE perceived generic bad guy to be an imminent threat. I'm saying I can understand, especially with the known behavior of the naked pervert, how a father could view this guy as a serious threat to my little girls. Maybe not in that very moment, but the guy (pervert) clearly was bold enough to do what he did. I submit, as a father, it's not a stretch to think he's very close to being emboldened enough to try gaining entry next time I have to work late and take it to the next level. I believe he likely acted to stop it, RIGHT HERE AND NOW.

We don't know all the facts, of course, and it's just a friendly debate, but I think the dad did what dads do. Maybe a little extreme, yes, but still pretty justified as long as he's willing to accept the consequences too.

Comparing what happened to stealing a garden hose (an example given) is ridiculous. Nobody holds their garden hose in such high regard as their little girls.

ccoker

09-12-13, 14:28

Legal or not
The POS got what he deserved

Don't do stupid shit that could make bad stuff happen to you.

Pretty freaking simple.

Moose-Knuckle

09-12-13, 14:57

So I am going to flip the tables. How would you feel if it came out later that said "teen voyeur" was mentally retarded and the father beat his head in and killed him?

Would you still think that the father was justified?

Sensei and I already hashed this one out; post #13 on page 1 and post #23 on page 2. If he was mentally retarded that does not give him the right to tresspass on my property in the dead of night and masterbate to my underaged daugher(s).

Or maybe the girl's father has been diagnosed with some sort of mental disorder heavy with aggresion and anger and he just can't help beating the guy to a pulp. He TOO is another hapless victim of society. It works both ways.

Moose-Knuckle

09-12-13, 15:00

Army Chief

09-12-13, 15:04

Good discussion for the most part, but at some point in these exchanges, I'm left to consider that there remains a rather significant gap between what we know (factually) about this incident, and what we presume may have happened, based upon interpolation.

That more or less consigns us to the theoretical, and at some point, the discussion points exhaust themselves and we all sort-of run out of Schlitz. Well, that, or we start getting irritated with each other, and begin to push the boundaries ... but so far, so good.

AC

Pork Chop

09-12-13, 15:06

Moose-Knuckle

09-12-13, 15:07

If everyone in the neighborhood "knows this guy" apparently the justice system wasn't functioning...which may also explain the 'excessiveness" exhibited by the dad/friends/relatives.

WINNER!

I fail to see how a short trip through the revolving door at his local country jail and having his name put on a list is supposed to protect children in the future from predators like him. Now if he has to drink his meals through a straw for the rest of his natural life the kiddos might have a chance.

Pork Chop

09-12-13, 15:09

WINNER!

I fail to see how a short trip through the revolving door at his local country jail and having his name put on a list is supposed to protect children in the future from predators like this him. Now if he has to drink his meals through a straw the rest of his natural life the kiddos might have a chance.

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't this list also an honor system? It's up to said pervert to update this list?
I'm open to being corrected if wrong.

Moose-Knuckle

09-12-13, 15:12

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't this list also an honor system? It's up to said pervert to update this list?
I'm open to being corrected if wrong.

Correct, they have to register as a sex offender with the authorties in their area. If not they get a charge for failure to register.

Army Chief

09-12-13, 15:12

I still like your pepper spray idea. :)

Simple. Effective. Cheap. Hilarious.

It really was an idea made of win, no? lol

AC

Pork Chop

09-12-13, 15:18

Correct, they have to register as a sex offender with the authorties in their area. If not they get a charge for failure to register.
I thought so. That's genius. An honor system to track the most vile deviants among us. Pure win.

Simple. Effective. Cheap. Hilarious.

It really was an idea made of win, no? lol

AC

Agreed on all accounts. :)

The 12 year old boy in me can't help but envision the guy scooting around the yard, yelping, dragging his bits, feet in the air, like a chihuahua itches its butt on the carpet. Lol

Ryno12

09-12-13, 15:47

The issue at hand is whether the father gets a free pass for his actions.

I've forgiven the dad. Did he break the law? Yep. Did he do society a favor? Yep.

Good discussion for the most part, but at some point in these exchanges, I'm left to consider that there remains a rather significant gap between what we know (factually) about this incident, and what we presume may have happened, based upon interpolation.

That more or less consigns us to the theoretical, and at some point, the discussion points exhaust themselves and we all sort-of run out of Schlitz. Well, that, or we start getting irritated with each other, and begin to push the boundaries ... but so far, so good.

AC

If you want to spark this up we can bring the LGBT community into this discussion. ;)

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Pork Chop

09-12-13, 15:54

If you want to spark this up we can bring the LGBT community into this discussion. ;)

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Had to throw a turd in the punch bowl, didn't you?

11B101ABN

09-12-13, 15:54

Should be able to use force to prevent a person fleeing the scene of a crime.

You are permitted to do so, but it must comply w/ state statute and be reasonable. Just like in my profession, reasonablness will be the standard by which the forcible detention will be judged.

Ryno12

09-12-13, 16:02

Had to throw a turd in the punch bowl, didn't you?

:D

AC seemed to be getting bored & since he brought it up earlier, I thought, 'what the heck?'.

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SteyrAUG

09-12-13, 16:49

So I am going to flip the tables. How would you feel if it came out later that said "teen voyeur" was mentally retarded and the father beat his head in and killed him?

Would you still think that the father was justified?

Ok, first when did this guy become a "teen"? I thought we were talking about an adult male.

Second you can kill somebody with a single punch so shit can happen.

And if the guy was mentally retarded then somebody needed to be supervising him. My view on mentally impaired individuals who are in other peoples yards naked jacking off is not much different from mentally impaired individuals who walk around killing people and truly don't understand what they are doing or that it is wrong.

To me it really doesn't matter, they remain the exact same threat to everybody else regardless of if they are mentally impaired or not. So if a person is so mentally impaired they might walk into a neighbors yard naked and start masturbating or worse, then SOMEBODY needs to be watching that person.

Now do I think a person deserves death for masturbating in a neighbors yard? Not really, I'm not a Taliban kind of person. But I understand how under the right conditions such things can get you killed.

Iraqgunz

09-13-13, 02:27

He was spying in teen girls, hence the name. I guess being a vigilante is good as long as it is the right situation.

Regardless he did not PHYSICALLY assault anyone. Pretty simple if you ask me.

Ok, first when did this guy become a "teen"? I thought we were talking about an adult male.

Second you can kill somebody with a single punch so shit can happen.

And if the guy was mentally retarded then somebody needed to be supervising him. My view on mentally impaired individuals who are in other peoples yards naked jacking off is not much different from mentally impaired individuals who walk around killing people and truly don't understand what they are doing or that it is wrong.

To me it really doesn't matter, they remain the exact same threat to everybody else regardless of if they are mentally impaired or not. So if a person is so mentally impaired they might walk into a neighbors yard naked and start masturbating or worse, then SOMEBODY needs to be watching that person.

Now do I think a person deserves death for masturbating in a neighbors yard? Not really, I'm not a Taliban kind of person. But I understand how under the right conditions such things can get you killed.

Iraqgunz

09-13-13, 02:33

You do understand that in many cases of mental retardation the person doesn't know better, right?

I swear I don't know what scares me more. People who are willing to beat someone (almost to death) or the criminals committing stupid crimes.

The guy is a perv and POS, I get it. Had the father tuned him up on the property I would have been cool with it. Not chasing him down the street with 2 others and beating him into the hospital.

Sensei and I already hashed this one out; post #13 on page 1 and post #23 on page 2. If he was mentally retarded that does not give him the right to tresspass on my property in the dead of night and masterbate to my underaged daugher(s).

Or maybe the girl's father has been diagnosed with some sort of mental disorder heavy with aggresion and anger and he just can't help beating the guy to a pulp. He TOO is another hapless victim of society. It works both ways.

Honu

09-13-13, 03:23

so if he was on his property he could beat him to a pulp but not OK if he is a few feet away ?

that makes no sense what so ever ?

his kid went out started screaming
so if my kid went outside started screaming I would run out as the dad !
if I was hanging out with my friend and heard screaming I would also go outside and see what was going on !

if I hear something going on loud at my neighbor who is a older lady living alone I go check on her
its the thing good neighbors do for each other !

and I think most of us would not beat up a retarded person but again stick to the facts we know he was not retarded as reported !

You do understand that in many cases of mental retardation the person doesn't know better, right?

I swear I don't know what scares me more. People who are willing to beat someone (almost to death) or the criminals committing stupid crimes.

The guy is a perv and POS, I get it. Had the father tuned him up on the property I would have been cool with it. Not chasing him down the street with 2 others and beating him into the hospital.

Iraqgunz

09-13-13, 03:54

Did I say that? No, I didn't and I stated that as much previously.

Let me do it Barney style.

1. No one was in physical danger. The father chased him down along with the others and they beat him. That is a fact.

2. As far as we know he wasn't attempting to enter the house nor did he apparently attack the father.

3. Had the father investigated and found said perv outside and then attempted to apprehend him and in the process he got smacked around that would be fine. In New Mexico there is no statute for a "citizens arrest". Here is some reading for those that can't research on their own to understand how the decision was made to file charges.

In New Mexico, so long as the arrestor had a reasonable subjective belief that such a crime had been committed, the privilege could apply even if the belief was factually incorrect or the arrestee was later found innocent of the charge. The arrestor must use no more than reasonably necessary force in effecting the detention, however, or he may be liable for either civil damages, criminal consequences or both. Conduct which violates our criminal statutes, such as assault, battery and false imprisonment, may also result in liability for civil damages under tort law or personal injury law. Crimes are prosecuted by the state while damages for torts are brought by the individual.

So please explain how this is wrong. He acted exactly contrary to the law. It's real easy and clear to understand. And for clarification had he made an attempt to enter the house and the home owner smoked him, I would have been 100% ok with it. Because he would have been acting within the law.

Hopefully you understand a little better now.

so if he was on his property he could beat him to a pulp but not OK if he is a few feet away ?

that makes no sense what so ever ?

his kid went out started screaming
so if my kid went outside started screaming I would run out as the dad !
if I was hanging out with my friend and heard screaming I would also go outside and see what was going on !

if I hear something going on loud at my neighbor who is a older lady living alone I go check on her
its the thing good neighbors do for each other !

and I think most of us would not beat up a retarded person but again stick to the facts we know he was not retarded as reported !

Moose-Knuckle

09-13-13, 08:48

You do understand that in many cases of mental retardation the person doesn't know better, right?

Oh I get it, but it still does not change the fact that a girl has the right to be in her room inside her own home without a naked pervert/retard choking the chicken outside her window has he is spying on her. All because someone is deemed by society as a handicap should not afford them a free pass to do whatever it is they so please.

From the story I gather the pervert is not afflicted with some mental retardation and that everyone in the community knows who he is since he walks around naked, leaves condoms all over the place, and hosts swinger parties.

skydivr

09-13-13, 09:09

I guess the real point is, once you've run him down the street, you reallly can't send him to the ICU without incurring legal troubles for yourself in the process.

However, there needs to be SOME PAIN involved before the police arrive in order to drive home the point that doing this is a huge mistake...I like the pepper spay to the crotch; pepper-spray paint-ball to the crotch would even be better :)

Honu

09-13-13, 09:11

you can tell when people know they lost the discussion they have to resort to this level of tactics !
good way to loose any respect also

Did I say that? No, I didn't and I stated that as much previously.

Let me do it Barney style.

1. No one was in physical danger. The father chased him down along with the others and they beat him. That is a fact.

2. As far as we know he wasn't attempting to enter the house nor did he apparently attack the father.

3. Had the father investigated and found said perv outside and then attempted to apprehend him and in the process he got smacked around that would be fine. In New Mexico there is no statute for a "citizens arrest". Here is some reading for those that can't research on their own to understand how the decision was made to file charges.

In New Mexico, so long as the arrestor had a reasonable subjective belief that such a crime had been committed, the privilege could apply even if the belief was factually incorrect or the arrestee was later found innocent of the charge. The arrestor must use no more than reasonably necessary force in effecting the detention, however, or he may be liable for either civil damages, criminal consequences or both. Conduct which violates our criminal statutes, such as assault, battery and false imprisonment, may also result in liability for civil damages under tort law or personal injury law. Crimes are prosecuted by the state while damages for torts are brought by the individual.

So please explain how this is wrong. He acted exactly contrary to the law. It's real easy and clear to understand. And for clarification had he made an attempt to enter the house and the home owner smoked him, I would have been 100% ok with it. Because he would have been acting within the law.

Hopefully you understand a little better now.

Alaskapopo

09-13-13, 15:36

you can tell when people know they lost the discussion they have to resort to this level of tactics !
good way to loose any respect also

What do you do when someone just does not get it. I think the moderator handled that very well.
Pat

Safetyhit

09-13-13, 15:42

What do you do when someone just does not get it. I think the moderator handled that very well.
Pat

Completely agree with this statement. If I were you I'd let it go Honu, there is absolutely nothing wrong with IG's sensible assessment.

Belmont31R

09-13-13, 16:47

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09/11/iowa-youth-pastor-rapes-boys-to-cure-them-of-homosexuality-wont-spend-one-day-in-prison/

Alaskapopo

09-13-13, 16:58

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09/11/iowa-youth-pastor-rapes-boys-to-cure-them-of-homosexuality-wont-spend-one-day-in-prison/

That is sick. Makes you think twice about letting your kids go to church alone.
Pat

Moose-Knuckle

09-13-13, 17:07

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09/11/iowa-youth-pastor-rapes-boys-to-cure-them-of-homosexuality-wont-spend-one-day-in-prison/

Want to bet the pious judge is a deacon at the youth pastor's church?

The judge in the case sentenced Girouex to 17 years in prison last week, and then immediately suspended the sentence in favor of sex offender treatment and five years probation. All Girouex has to do is avoid violating his probation and he’ll NEVER spend a single minute in a prison cell.

This shit stain deserves far worse than a beating and a stay in an ICU, but hey he got his due process and justice was served and now the children in that community are a whole lot safer . . . :rolleyes:

This is spot on:

Either way, it’s disgusting, and the judicial system has once again failed to do its job to protect the community and give justice to the victims. This kind of “punishment” only encourages rapists and pedophiles. Because courts are not taking rape and pedophilia seriously, more women and children are likely to be violated because the consequences of committing such crimes are slim to none. It’s just another sign of the worsening rape culture that has been running rampant in America.

Honu

09-13-13, 17:11

it's the barney answer ?
and the condescending "Hopefully you understand a little better now."

also
1. No one was in physical danger. The father chased him down along with the others and they beat him. That is a fact.

2. As far as we know he wasn't attempting to enter the house nor did he apparently attack the father.

again #1 we do not know if they were in physical danger we just dont know ! that is fact ! (second part is correct)
again #2 we dont know what his intentions were ?

again he keeps assuming things about it he does not know ?

Completely agree with this statement. If I were you I'd let it go Honu, there is absolutely nothing wrong with IG's sensible assessment.

Army Chief

09-13-13, 17:21

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/09/11/iowa-youth-pastor-rapes-boys-to-cure-them-of-homosexuality-wont-spend-one-day-in-prison/

Before we go too far down this path, let us consider the source site's rather clearly-stated agenda ...

Addicting Info started as a resource to discredit all the lies and propaganda that the right-wing spreads.

As to sending children to church alone, the general idea is that you're actually supposed to be out there leading the way, but that is a different topic entirely.

I just think this is one of those really, really "out there" news scoops that is so tainted by ulterior motives as to serve no one well. It is written to incense, and that is about all that it accomplishes, because none of us, churchmen or not, are going to find anything redeeming in what this guy is accused/guilty of doing. It is only made more egregious (and a better headline) because he did it under the auspices of trust and beneath a veneer of religion. Disgusting and offensive, but still the same violation under the penal code.

And then the article continues to slowly and deliberately grind the axe, of course ...

This “rape away the gay” idea is nothing new ...

Meh. We can do better.

AC

Belmont31R

09-13-13, 17:40

Local news on that case:

http://m.kcci.com/Wife-Condemns-Youth-Pastor-In-Sex-Crimes-Case/-/16916388/10378560/-/11vjkckz/-/index.html

http://m.ketv.com/Wife-Condemns-Youth-Pastor-In-Sex-Crimes-Case/-/17418982/11669906/-/f3x8ekz/-/index.html

Fwiw if a person was convicted of those types of crimes, and let go on some BS 'treatment' programs...Id vote not guilty if that parent got their own justice.

Belmont31R

09-13-13, 17:46

That is sick. Makes you think twice about letting your kids go to church alone.
Pat

I am an atheist but that is like saying you should think twice about letting your kid around a cop. As we should all know, there are shitbags everywhere. I don't get how this can be said but talking about all cops is a no no. There are a lot of good cops and a lot of good pastors out there. There are sexual predator cops, coaches, pastors, teachers, general scum, executives, ect.

Moose-Knuckle

09-13-13, 17:51

Fwiw if a person was convicted of those types of crimes, and let go on some BS 'treatment' programs...Id vote not guilty if that parent got their own justice.

And that sir, is true JUSTICE.

(TX) Grand jury: No indictment against father who killed daughter's alleged abuser

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/19/us/texas-abuser-father/index.html

Belmont31R

09-13-13, 17:57

And that sir, is true JUSTICE.

(TX) Grand jury: No indictment against father who killed daughter's alleged abuser

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/19/us/texas-abuser-father/index.html

Yep. Live and let live ends when 'you' commit a 'gross' act against my home or family. Better hope the state finds you first, and if they do, then don't exact justice, you fall back into the fair game category.

NCPatrolAR

09-13-13, 17:58

Because courts are not taking rape and pedophilia seriously

Cant speak for the pedophilla part, but I call BS on courts not taking legit rape cases serious. Last rape trial I was involved in had the suspect walking away with 35 years in prison. Hell; people get more time around here for rape and sex offenses than they do murder and robbery.

NCPatrolAR

09-13-13, 17:59

it's the barney answer ?

Let it go

SteyrAUG

09-13-13, 18:51

He was spying in teen girls, hence the name. I guess being a vigilante is good as long as it is the right situation.

Regardless he did not PHYSICALLY assault anyone. Pretty simple if you ask me.

Gotcha, I read a different context into the word "teen."

As far as being a vigilante, if a cop isn't there, then YOU have to deal with things until they arrive. If it was me I'd prefer that a cop already be there when some guy comes into my yard and starts masturbating to my (hypothetical) underage daughters.

It really is a lot more fun for me when it's a cop who's kicking the ass of some guy who deserves an ass kicking. I'm getting a bit old for these sorts of things.

And no he didn't physically assault anyone. Doesn't mean you can't get killed just because you don't physically assault somebody.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-09-17/news/fl-pompano-road-rage-20100916_1_road-rage-florida-law-mike-dutko

Patrick Lavoie was shot and killed and he never laid a finger on anyone, but he did pose a threat to somebody. And while the naked guy didn't try to get into the house, he did trespass onto another mans property to commit crimes.

I understand you believe the father went too far with his actions. I think you underestimate the seriousness of a grown man standing in your yard naked masturbating to your underage daughters. Don't want to get into "minority report" territory but it's a giant red flag regardless.

And all I'm saying is if I have to choose between these two guys who BOTH broke the law, I'm giving consideration to the father and not the naked guy masturbating in his lawn. One guy could have prevented the entire situation from occurring at all.

Belmont31R

09-13-13, 19:01

I am a bit of a realist here. If you do the peeping tom thing and the head of house gets to you before the cops then oh well. I'm never going to stand in a way of a dad, husband or general protector from protecting his family as he sees fit. When your trespass, and commit sexual acts you DESERVE to get ****ed up by a man protecting his family. If you place your child in the care of another with ordinary trust, and that person you reasonably thought should be able to be trusted violates that trust? Cops better beat the parent to the scene.

Why? Because I'm not going to violate someone's right to protect their family. I think it's a miscarriage of justice to have to lay back and let the state handle it. If they don't? You going to accept their ruling?

Alaskapopo

09-13-13, 20:32

I am an atheist but that is like saying you should think twice about letting your kid around a cop. As we should all know, there are shitbags everywhere. I don't get how this can be said but talking about all cops is a no no. There are a lot of good cops and a lot of good pastors out there. There are sexual predator cops, coaches, pastors, teachers, general scum, executives, ect.

Most people in churches are good people I know that. Just saying I would not let my kids go alone until I felt I knew the pastor enough o trust him. There are sexual predator cops but far fewer because generally the screening process weeds them out. (polygraph, psychological, background etc. ) Some do get by however and its sad when it happens. There is no polygraph, psychological and often no background for church leaders.
Pat

Honu

09-13-13, 20:46

almost all but some maybe some small chuches do have a background process for the pastor with the church and for all people that work there at least every church I know does this
even at ours if you want to volunteer you have to agree to a background check and have references and a interview process and put on a OK list to volunteer and that is even for just passing out burgers on BBQ day after church !

you can ask your pastor for info on him if you are smart person you wont just start listening to someone without knowing there background

and like belmont said they come through in every line of work its near impossible to weed them out ! the thing is they need to be brought to justice when they do surface and this is whats not happening

Most people in churches are good people I know that. Just saying I would not let my kids go alone until I felt I knew the pastor enough o trust him. There are sexual predator cops but far fewer because generally the screening process weeds them out. (polygraph, psychological, background etc. ) Some do get by however and its sad when it happens. There is no polygraph, psychological and often no background for church leaders.
Pat

Honu

09-13-13, 21:03

Alaskapopo

09-13-13, 22:21

The majority of sexual assault are not reported to the police (an average of 54% of assaults in the last five years were not reported). Those rapists, of course, will never spend a day in prison. But even when the crime is reported, it is unlike to lead to an arrest and prosecution. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 3% of rapists will ever serve a day in prison

References

Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010
FBI, Uniform Crime Reports: 2006-2010
National Center for Policy Analysis, Crime and Punishment in America, 1999
Department of Justice, Felony Defendents in Large Urban Counties: average of 2002-2006
Department of Justice, Felony Defendents in Large Urban Counties: average of 2002-2006

stats were from RAINN

These stats can be deceiving. I know for example that a large number of sexual assaults that are reported are false. Seen it time and time again. Woman gets drunk has sex with some guy she met at the bar and starts to sober up and realizes her husband/boyfriend is going to be pissed and then she makes up a rape charge. The DA will generally not file false report charges because they don't want to discourage victims from reporting. Meanwhile the male has his name drug through the mud.
Pat

Honu

09-13-13, 22:42

yes that happens and laws need to change about making the man in the wrong from the get go !
and also they need to prosecute those who file a false report better :)

but they are part of that stat :) also why out of so many arrests only so many get to court because they do weed those out of the system before hand so those 3 out of 100 or so are thrown out because of what you said

talking with a (lawyer/prosecutor) its amazing how many cases do not make it to court for many things
as he says the LEO does there job to bring the cases in someone decides if they go to trial then a prosecutor will bring them to court and then the judge decides what happens
not speaking rape here just general
like some arrests should never be made and are thrown out
some arrests have to be made but should not have to be made and are thrown out
some arrests info was gathered wrong and are thrown out
some arrests were good but the prosecutor did not present correct so the judge throws them out
and the hope is when everything goes correct the person who did wrong gets sentenced correct

but also with that system he said people usually get a fair chance because its not just one person deciding what happens to them so he has a ton of faith of course in the system and its checks and figures those who go free are part of the balance of the ones who should not be in also go free kinda thing :)

These stats can be deceiving. I know for example that a large number of sexual assaults that are reported are false. Seen it time and time again. Woman gets drunk has sex with some guy she met at the bar and starts to sober up and realizes her husband/boyfriend is going to be pissed and then she makes up a rape charge. The DA will generally not file false report charges because they don't want to discourage victims from reporting. Meanwhile the male has his name drug through the mud.
Pat