Commercial cast bullets

[Maineshooter]

I'm getting tired of paying through the nose for .45 acp fmj bullets (when I can even find them). I bought a KKM barrel for my Glock 21 earlier this year for the sole purpose of shooting lead, thinking I would cast my own to get through the shortage. The long and short of it is that I just can't make the time to cast in bulk. It seems like there is a steady supply of commercially cast lead bullets at decent prices.

I checked out the Missouri Bullet Company and found their prices to be reasonable and I like the fact that the BHN of the .45 bullets is 12, which should be about perfect. I googled the company and read mixed reviews but mostly positive.

Does anyone here have any experience with them or can you recommend a reliable supplier? I don't mind paying more for consistency.

[Raven Armament]

MBC is the way to go. A lot of the negative reviews are by people that don't understand that you don't load cast bullets like you do jacketed bullets. Fast powders aren't good with cast. There is also more to preventing leading by proper bullet fit rather than the hardness of the bullet.

Slug your bore. Tap a pure lead chunk down your barrel and measure the widest part. That's your groove diameter. Bullet should match or exceed this to obturate (seal the bore) and prevent blow-by.

If you use a powder with a high flame temperature, like Titegroup, expect to have leading. You want a slower powder with lower flame temp. Look to WSF, WST, W231/HP38, Unique, #5.

I cast my hunting bullets for my ammunition but for the target SWC style ammo I load in volume for my customers, I only use MBC bullets.

[SPQR476]

I've loaded and shot about 10k MBC bullets. I don't even look elsewhere for cast unless I cast them myself.

[Maineshooter]

I appreciate the replies. MBC it is for the next batch.

Sent from my XT881 using Tapatalk 2

[T2C]

I have been looking for a new source for good cast lead bullets since Bull-X went out of business.

Thank you!

[NWPilgrim]

MBC is top notch. They have kept up production pretty well. I have bought several thousand from them in the last two years. Just received 400 .44 300gr bullets today that was ordered less than two weeks ago. Very good prices, fast and accurate shipping, and bullets shoot well.

I like that they have different hardness for different purposes.

[Tennvol12345]

I shoot about 50k rounds a year, all MBC.

Using the right powder is key otherwise they will lead up. I use either WST or 231.

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[Maineshooter]

I shoot about 50k rounds a year, all MBC.

Using the right powder is key otherwise they will lead up. I use either WST or 231.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks. I have a good supply of 231 on hand. It has pretty much been my go to powder for cast bullet loads in .45 acp. Works well with .38 special also.

[Ranger325]

I'm a little late to the party, but FWIW I have had good results with Precision Delta lead in .45 with 231 for several years and would recommend.

[bigedp51]

You can go to the reloading forum at Brian Enos website and see the bullet and powder combinations used with cast and plated bullets by the competitive shooters. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=4

What I do not understand is why someone would think a reduced load of Titegroup would cause problems with cast bullets.

I use Titegroup with jacketed, plated and cast bullets "without" any problem. And the competitive shooters at the Brian Enos forum use Titegroup also. I will admit I started using Titegroup because I could no longer get 231 or HP38. "BUT" with low pressure cast bullet loads your not going to melt the base of the bullet and have liquefied lead coating your bore. I'm using Titegroup in my 9mm, .40 S&W and .44 magnum "without" any problems.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fastpowder_zpsa12b107f.jpg

Read the load data below, Titegroup is used with cast bullets.

Make Right With a “.40 Lite”
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/ammunition_40lite_091806/

I think Titegroup is working in my .40 Glock quite well. ;) (its a 100 round group fired at 15 and 25 yards)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/40SampW001_zps562459ff.jpg

[Raven Armament]

Using the right powder is key otherwise they will lead up. I use either WST or 231.
Bullet fit is more important than powder choice.


What I do not understand is why someone would think a reduced load of Titegroup would cause problems with cast bullets.
TG and similar powders have a higher flame temperature than others and causes portions of the base of the bullet to melt and deposit lead on the bore.

If anyone is serious about shooting cast bullets, go here http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm and read this book.

[Tennvol12345]

I must be doing something wrong then. Had leading problems and switched powder and the problem went away. Same gun, same crimp, same depth

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[Bentsight]

I switched to billscastbullets.com and have not looked back. Wide range of products, consistent Brinell hardness, reliable supply and competitive pricing.

[Raven Armament]

I must be doing something wrong then. Had leading problems and switched powder and the problem went away. Same gun, same crimp, same depth

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
What was your previous powder? Both WST and W231 burn cool.

With a powder change you are changing pressure, pressure curve, and flame temperature all which have an effect on obturation. Bullet fit is king. Undersize bullets can't obturate properly unless excessive force is created, which usually ends up resulting in leading of a different type.

[bigedp51]

Bullet fit is more important than powder choice.

TG and similar powders have a higher flame temperature than others and causes portions of the base of the bullet to melt and deposit lead on the bore.

If anyone is serious about shooting cast bullets, go here http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm and read this book.

Raven Armament

Due to the "shortages" I was force to switch from 231 to Titegroup and I'm shooting cast bullets without any leading problem in three different handguns. I also pointed to the Brian Enos website where competitive shooters are using Titegroup, and to a webpage for the .40 S&W using Titegroup with cast bullets.

Peak flame temperature corresponds directly to chamber pressure and with cast bullets you are shooting reduced loads at lower than normal chamber pressures in most circumstances.

There are on the Hodgdon's burn rate chart 13 powders listed that are faster burning than Titegroup and Hodgdons Clays is No. 10 on this list. And this faster burning powder Clays is a favorite with many shooters. The nitroglycerin content of the powder and its shape is a big factor in the heat produced. BUT you will also see two well known powders for reduced cast bullet shooting with Red Dot as No.8 and Bullseye just one step above Titegroup, and you don't see any complaints with these faster powders that contain more nitroglycerin percentage in the powder. The MSDS sheets for these powders do not list specific nitroglycerin amounts and only state they can contain from 0% to 42% nitroglycerin. And I have never seen anyone tell us at what temperature their loads burn at. ;)

You will see posters "saying" Titgroup is hotter because of the sharper recoil impulse because these shooters were using a slower burning powder before. You will also see posters complaining about the smoke it produces with some cast bullets. And you will see Titegroup users telling the people if they didn't use cheap bullet lube it wouldn't smoke.

I'm not trying to be insulting or argumentative, "BUT" I'm using Titegroup, I don't see any leading problem or do I have any complaints with this powder.

[Raven Armament]

Peak flame temperature corresponds directly to chamber pressure and with cast bullets you are shooting reduced loads at lower than normal chamber pressures in most circumstances.
I've never loaded cast bullet ammunition at reduced loads lower than "normal" chamber pressure. My cast .40 S&W ammunition is loaded to 33,000psi. I've never entertained the thought of a reduced load of any kind.


There are on the Hodgdon's burn rate chart 13 powders listed that are faster burning than Titegroup and Hodgdons Clays is No. 10 on this list. And this faster burning powder Clays is a favorite with many shooters. The nitroglycerin content of the powder and its shape is a big factor in the heat produced. BUT you will also see two well known powders for reduced cast bullet shooting with Red Dot as No.8 and Bullseye just one step above Titegroup, and you don't see any complaints with these faster powders that contain more nitroglycerin percentage in the powder. The MSDS sheets for these powders do not list specific nitroglycerin amounts and only state they can contain from 0% to 42% nitroglycerin. And I have never seen anyone tell us at what temperature their loads burn at. ;)
I don't waste my time loading reduced pressure cast bullet loads. Talk to Hodgdon about flame temperatures like I did. More people have problems with leading by using those powders than have dialed in their loads with those powders. Bullet fit is king, then everything else matters. Powder isn't priority. That's the point.


You will see posters "saying" Titgroup is hotter because of the sharper recoil impulse because these shooters were using a slower burning powder before. You will also see posters complaining about the smoke it produces with some cast bullets. And you will see Titegroup users telling the people if they didn't use cheap bullet lube it wouldn't smoke.
I say it's hotter flame temperature because that's what the Hodgdon ballisticians told me when I was talking with them about what powders to use for cast bullet loads in my commercial ammunition. And yes, cheap lube will smoke more than better quality lube. Take a good bullet fit with a good lead friendly powder and with a cheap lube it will smoke and likely lead. Change to a better quality lube and it's eliminated. I run a 335gr LFN-PB in a .454 Casull at 40,500 CUP and 1,530fps with no leading. The lube does the job. Change lubes and I need a copper diaper on the bullet.


I'm not trying to be insulting or argumentative, "BUT" I'm using Titegroup, I don't see any leading problem or do I have any complaints with this powder.
If you've got your load dialed in and are happy, continue. There are a lot of variables that aren't understood by most shooters loading cast bullets. The author of the book I linked to above is the most knowledgeable on the subject today.

[bigedp51]

I consider the Lyman Cast Bullet data to be "the most knowledgeable on the subject today".

I do agree with what they said below from the link you posted which came from Elmer Keith.

"Another source of leading that can be traced to the components of the load is the mismatch of the powder burn rate to pressure generated by the load. Many years ago Elmer Keith used to write about the "balance point" of a given powder; the range of pressures at which that powder delivered smooth uniform ballistics. Basically this boiled down to fast powders for light target loads (e.g. Bullseye, W231, HP-38, AA #2), medium burners for standard pressure loads (like Unique, Universal Clays, AA #5), medium slow powders for +P loads (powders like HS-7, Blue Dot, AA #7) and slow powders for full-house magnum loads (like W296, H110, 2400 and AA #9). Match the powder to the pressure curve. The use of fast powders for higher than normal pressures with plain-based bullets can cause bad leading, due to the very rapid pressure rise time early in the P-T curve leading to high pressure faster than the bullet alloy can obturate in response to the pressure, and as a result severe gas cutting can result. The other issue here is that the slow pistol powders reach their pressure peak when the bullet is an inch or two in front of the forcing cone, when the bullet is fully supported and contained by the barrel. Sealing and lubrication are fully functional in this environment. The fast pistol powders reach their peak pressure when the bullet is in the throat or traversing the cylinder gap. This is fine if the load involves modest pressures, but if a plain-based cast bullet is subjected to magnum pressures as it crosses the cylinder gap, then serious leading problems can arise. The take-home lesson here is to not use fast powders for magnum pressure levels in the first place! Just match the powder to the pressure curve."

From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Your link also has a chapter on "Plinking Bullets and Loads" using reduced loads with fast burning powders. And the Lyman manual lists cast bullet loads using Titegroup.

When I want to shoot hot loads in my revolvers I use gas checks on my cast bullets, you may have heard of gas checks. They act like the heat shield on space reentry vehicles. ;)

Judging from your statements above you have no personal experience with Titegroup and are posting hearsay information. There is a difference between a personal opinion and written facts. I'm using Titegroup and do not have a leading problem or any problem with the powder when loaded properly using published loading data.

And I really love it when someone else tells me what will work in "my" handguns, now tell me again my .44 magnum has a leading problem using Titegroup. :sarcastic:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/29-5classic_zps0cc3cd4f.jpg

And as I said previously, competitive shooters are using Titegroup. And Brian Enos a National Shooting Champion has shot 10's of thousands of similar rounds using Titegroup. You might find it an informative read, they use heavy bullets with fast burning powder for faster shooting and recovery time. :dance3:

Titegroup minor load for Glock 22 Gen 4
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181489

Brian Enos
A Brief Shooting Biography...
http://www.brianenos.com/pages/bio.html

[Raven Armament]

Judging from your statements above you have no personal experience with Titegroup and are posting hearsay information. There is a difference between a personal opinion and written facts. I'm using Titegroup and do not have a leading problem or any problem with the powder when loaded properly using published loading data.
I have used TG in the past when I started handloading and never used it again as it didn't suit my needs. Like I stated before, bullet fit and proper lube allow fast, high temp powders like TG to be used. Your bullets have a quality lube that prevents the lead deposits on the bore because it is caught and held in the lube left in the bore. Bullet fit is priority, not powder choice as you have stated. Powder is one of the last considerations, not priority. Fit, lube, and alloy are all more important than powder choice.


And as I said previously, competitive shooters are using Titegroup. And Brian Enos a National Shooting Champion has shot 10's of thousands of similar rounds using Titegroup. You might find it an informative read, they use heavy bullets with fast burning powder for faster shooting and recovery time. :dance3:
Yes I'm well aware of Enos and the gamers on his forum.

[Tzed250]

After running out of Oregon Trail/LaserCast 140gr bullets, I ordered the IDP#7 140gr from MBC. I loaded them to the same 1.125 COAL that had worked fine for the OT bullets. I failed to do a chambering check and ended with a return to battery problem with my hand loads. It seems that the cone section of the MBC bullet is shorter and the bullet must be seated to a 1.110 COAL to be able to chamber correctly. Since making the change the MBC loads have worked well.

[macho mouse]

If you are going to cast your own, I strongly urge you to get a copy of "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets" by Veral Smith. His info is geared mostly toward hunting ammo, but some still applies to any cast bullet. He may oversell his bullet lube with standard handgun ammo, but you really can't see many flaws in his info in general.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

No love for Bayou Bullets? I've been using their 124 gr. RN's with Win231 in my 9mm with great success.

[Tigereye]

I've shot thousands of Missouri Bullet and Bayou Bullet 45acp 200 gr SWC's with 231 and love both bullets.
Eric

[theblackknight]

I know of lots of people including myself who use Black Bullets International for moly coated goodness in 9mm. It's a little more $$ then cast, but loads easier and Glock rifling likes them.

I was forced to use Bullseye for a while but switched to WST when I found it and it's nice.

[wahoo95]

I like the moly coated bullets