View Full Version : Weird things happening with LC Brass
Never had a mishap when using FC brass, which I understand is soft. Got a hold of some good LC brass, and this is happening in both my SPR clone and my mutt carbine. Worse in the carbine, and my load data and chrony say I'm nowhere near high pressure. I'm at a loss.
The carbine is a regular old pre AWB made out of who knows what parts. The SPR clone is all new good stuff, FailZero FA BCG, Rainier barrel, 18", RLGS, H1 buffer, Tubb spring with all coils, Wylde chamber.
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/ThaDoubleJ/IMG_0856_zpsddb33c9a.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/ThaDoubleJ/IMG_0855_zps94dde3cb.jpg
Did you use the same load in the LC brass as in the FC?
Internal volume can vary quite a bit.
I backed way down, was getting around 2300 FPS with a 77gr Nosler at my starting loads, using TAC. When this sort of thing happened with the carbine, I was running a 50gr Hornady at 2600 FPS with AR-Comp. With that recipe it was far too common, so I shelved it, but these three are from 67 rds fired, and not a single other piece of brass or primer showed the slighest pressure sign. I topped out at 23.3gr TAC, 2643 FPS, and that batch kicked out perfect brass. It's been suggested to me that maybe the carbine is on the loose side for headspacing, and the SPR may be on the tight side for brass length.
Do you know where this brass came from? Did you buy it new / loaded prior to reload? The reason I ask is because tons of this lake city brass is sold on the open market as scrap, when it is sold for melt the common requirement is that it is burned to make sure all primers are popped. This would cause the entire casing to be annealed and most likely worthless for reloading.
Just my thoughts.
Brandon
If the bullet was forced back into the case it decreases case capacity and can raise chamber pressure. If the bullet moved forward and contacted the rifling it would also cause a high pressure spike in pressure.
Lake City military cartridge cases are made to a higher standard than commercial .223 cases and have a harder cartridge base. The three cases shown reached such a high pressure the brass started to flow.
Looking at your photo the pressure expansion ring at the base of the case appears to be at different heights. This indicates a cartridge headspace problem from excessive shoulder bump or possibly a headspace problem with the rifle.
The drawing below is what happened to your cases, but the bulge on your cases does not appear to all be at the same height/location above the base of the case.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/flow.gif
Do you use any type of case gauge to check your loaded rounds?
This stuff was all Ultramax remanufactured, probably twice fired. Measured all my cases, seperated the ones longer than 1.760 before I loaded them.
I've put a Wilson case gage on my to-get list before I load any more of this stuff, as well as a trimmer. The headspace issue has been mentioned a couple times, so that is my next step. I did size and load a round and compare it to a fired shell, and the shoulders look identical. One of my reloads next to a factory load does look a little different, but so close it took me 15 minutes and 4 different lighting situations to come to the conclusion that they were different.
Is there any possibility that the rifle is firing out of battery?
Reload next to a fired brass that didn't fail.
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/ThaDoubleJ/IMG_0857_zpsc3ad5c6a.jpg
polymorpheous
09-11-13, 22:54
The AR-15 can not fire out of battery.
You need a case gauge to check the headspace.
Comparing cartridges won't cut it.
The case gauge is an essential piece of reloading equipment.
I'll get one for sure before I pull the lever on my press again. So would this be an issue of my dies setting the shoulder back too far or something amiss in my rifle? I'd guess it's the dies, since I've had this happen in two rifles now, plus I'd hate to think that I spent all that dough on good parts just to have something go wrong. I've never had any issues with factory ammo, either, so that points back to the dies as well.
The AR-15 can not fire out of battery.
You need a case gauge to check the headspace.
Comparing cartridges won't cut it.
The case gauge is an essential piece of reloading equipment.
This is great advice. I would also segregate cases for more precise reloads.
If your rifle fired out of battery your post would be about a Kaboom.
Buy a Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge, it is easier to read and you will not have to buy a case gauge for every caliber.
You need a Vernier caliper for the Hornady gauge and to measure case length. A case that is too long will not expand properly in the neck of the case and cause pressure spikes.
You need to trim your cases to the proper length.
You need to measure your fired cases from the shoulder to the base of the case and then bump the shoulders back approximately .004.
If your full length resizing and the die is makeing hard contact with the shell holder (cam over) you may be over sizing the cases. I have several .223 dies and my Lee die will bump the shoulder back .010 if it is contacting the shell holder.
Below the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge in the front and Wilson case gauges in the rear.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge002_zpsc597686b.jpg
With the Hornady gauge you can measure fired cases that normally will not fit inside a Wilson gauge. This way you know the fired length and can then set the die to bump the shoulder back approximately .004. You can use a set of feeler gauges to adjust your dies, to start place a .010 gauge betweent the shell holder and the die and then measure the resized case. You can then increase or decrease the feeler gauge thickness for proper shoulder bump.
If money is tight you can get a Lee case trimmer for very little, and trim cases till your fingers bleed. :D
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/trimmers.jpg
T2C, when you say segregate cases, you mean by head stamp?
51, I don't know what Vernier calipers are, but my calipers look like the ones in your photo, but with a digital display vs. the dial.
I do set the dies up by touching the shell holder, then going down 1/8 of a turn, per RCBS' instructions.
I'll have a power trimmer soon, just waiting for in stock or a sale to place the order.
The Wilson dies I'm guess are for reloads, where the Hornady gadget will allow me to measure fired brass as well?
Thanks all
DoubleJ
I have two AR15 5.56 rifles and a bolt action .223 rifle I reload for, and below are three .223 resizing dies and what is missing in the photo are a Lee three die set and a Lee Collet die in .223.
Below, a RCBS small base die set, a standard RCBS die set and a Forster neck bushing and shoulder bump die with a bench rest seater die. The small base die is used on once fired cases that were not fired in my rifles to bring them to minimum dimensions. The standard FL die is used on cases fired in my rifles and the Forster die is used for my bolt action rifle.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223dies002_zps87879768.jpg
Each full length die I have will push/bump the shoulder of the case back diffrent amounts with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. The Lee FL die if making hard contact with the shell holder will bump the shoulder back .010 shorter than its fired length. The RCBS dies will bump the shoulders back .005 and .007 from their fired length. Each rifle and die set will be slightly different and the dies will need to be adjusted for proper shoulder bump.
There are many ways to do the adjusting but I use the Redding Competition shell holders for this purpose. There are five shell holders with the shortest being .002 taller than a standard shell holder progressing to .004, .006, .008 and .010 taller than standard height.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/reddingshellholders.jpg
I prefer using these shell holders because the shell holder makes firm contact with the resizing die and helps center the die in the presses threads. My die lock rings have rubber o-rings under them and allow the die to float and be self centering in the press. You can also use feeler gauges as spacers for setting up your dies.
Please read this carefully, your using a .223 die to resize 5.56 cases fired in a AR15 rifle that has "LONGER" headspace settings than commercial factory .223 rifles. Meaning you do "NOT" want the die to make hard contact with the shell holder. If the die does make contact with the shell holder you will push/bump the shoulder of the case back too far and over resize the case and possibly cause case head separations. This can vary with each rifle and die set and nothing is written in stone.
Below is a Wilson case gauge with a fired case sitting in the gauge, the base of the case is too fat to let the case drop into the gauge. Meaning I can't use a Wilson case gauge to measure the fired length of my cases.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge003_zps5d8923e5.jpg
The Hornady gauge below doesn't care how fat my cases get, they only measure from the datum point on the case shoulder to the base of the case. Meaning I can check fired and resized case lengths without any problem and set up my dies to bump the shoulder back approximately .004.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge002_zpsc597686b.jpg
You will need to segregate your cases by brand because each brand/type case will have different amount of spring back after resizing. Meaning after resizing the shoulder locations will be at different lengths so you sort by type to get more uniform shoulder bump results.
You need to measure you fired cases to find the length of your chamber and then bump the shoulders back approximately .004.
(This shoulder bump can vary between .003 to .006 depending on the chamber and cases used)
And 99% of the time the resizing die will not be touching the shell holder. The instructions that came with your dies want you to push the shoulder back far enough that your cases will fit in anyone's chamber by making contact with the shell holder. And as long as you only have one AR15 you only need to size the case to "YOUR" chamber. This Is one reason I have the Redding shell holders, I'm loading for three different AR15 rifles.
...my load data and chrony say I'm nowhere near high pressure. I'm at a loss.
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/ThaDoubleJ/IMG_0856_zpsddb33c9a.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/ThaDoubleJ/IMG_0855_zps94dde3cb.jpg
Whatever you're loading, the base of the case on the right looks like it is so high above proof maximum that you're lucky your rifle wasn't destroyed.
What were your powder charges?
Mostly good info but I wanted to make one correction: There is no difference in exterior, physical dimensions between .223 and 5.56 cases, nor is the HS on 5.56 chambers any longer, relatively, than the HS in .223 chambers. The minimum acceptable HS is 1.4636" and the maximum acceptable HS is 1.4736" for both. It also doesn't make a difference whether the dies are designated .223 or 5.56.
Different brands of brass do size differently but I don't think its necessary to sort them. YMMV
Your point about too much shoulder bump is completely valid, I just wanted to nitpick the details :)
Please read this carefully, your using a .223 die to resize 5.56 cases fired in a AR15 rifle that has "LONGER" headspace settings than commercial factory .223 rifles. Meaning you do "NOT" want the die to make hard contact with the shell holder. If the die does make contact with the shell holder you will push/bump the shoulder of the case back too far and over resize the case and possibly cause case head separations. This can vary with each rifle and die set and nothing is written in stone.
You will need to segregate your cases by brand because each brand/type case will have different amount of spring back after resizing. Meaning after resizing the shoulder locations will be at different lengths so you sort by type to get more uniform shoulder bump results.
You need to measure you fired cases to find the length of your chamber and then bump the shoulders back approximately .004.
(This shoulder bump can vary between .003 to .006 depending on the chamber and cases used)
From post #3 "I backed way down, was getting around 2300 FPS with a 77gr Nosler at my starting loads, using TAC. When this sort of thing happened with the carbine, I was running a 50gr Hornady at 2600 FPS with AR-Comp. With that recipe it was far too common, so I shelved it, but these three are from 67 rds fired, and not a single other piece of brass or primer showed the slighest pressure sign. I topped out at 23.3gr TAC, 2643 FPS, and that batch kicked out perfect brass. It's been suggested to me that maybe the carbine is on the loose side for headspacing, and the SPR may be on the tight side for brass length."
Whatever you're loading, the base of the case on the right looks like it is so high above proof maximum that you're lucky your rifle wasn't destroyed.
Double J, "Vernier" is just the name of the scale used to read measurements on some types of calipers. Dial and digital calipers can make the same measurements as Vernier calipers. They're also easier to read.
ETA: I wonder if you ended up with SAW brass which I've heard is bad news for reloading because it stretches much more than brass fired from a carbine or rifle.
Are you measuring your charge weights individually? Is it possible these three got an overdose somehow?
51, so would it be a safe idea to fire some factory loads, then get that Hornady gadget, measure what my chamber is kicking out, and bump back .004 from there?
This is WAY more difficult than RCBS makes it seem in the video!
Eric, I do believe the brass I was loading for my carbine came out of a SAW, as only 1 in 3 is still less than 1.760" after sizing, and the cases are much more difficult to size than I'm used to. I've shelved that brass, as I don't trust it. The three nasty shells above came out of the ejection port of an AR-15 I built for a friend, Wylde chamber 24" RRA barrel. They were easy to size, nothing weird about them at all, at least until after I got done with em...
All, the part that confuses me the most is how nasty these failures look, they literally look like they were about to blow my head off, and this occured with proven load data from Hornady using instructions provided by RCBS, and no where in either my Hornady or my Speer manual does it mention the possibility of what I'm experiencing. Does the entire reloading industry assume we're all using virgin brass and loading 10% below max?
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based on overall length alone. OAL length of a case can be affected in two places: From the base to datum line (HS measurement) and the case neck (Technically, OAL can be affected by the length of the shoulder too but it would be negligible). In other words, firing the case increases its HS measurement and, as a result, the OAL but the entire case is not stretched. The point is that its hard to know 'where' your case would be long/short without tools to measure in different places. OAL only tells you part of the story and the cases you measured longer than 1.760 may only have long necks; not necessarily a long HS measurement due to having been fired from a SAW. From what I've seen, a good majority of once-fired cases have long necks so I'm not surprised with your findings - get yourself a trimmer! If you do get the Hornady tool (Which is easier to use, more accurate, and tells you a lot more IMO) and measure some of that LC brass that you haven't sized yet you may get a better idea of whether or not it was SAW brass. If nothing else, you'll know the size of the chamber(s) that it was fired from.
If you have fired many rounds out of these guns before without issue and are confident that neither of them have excessive headspace then I don't think it would hurt to fire factory ammo. At this point though, I personally would want to gage them. And yes, If you do shoot some factory ammo, save a few cases and measure them with the Hornady tool to get an idea of what your chamber's HS is, then set your die up based on that. If you don't want to sort your brass you may have to adjust your die to size cases a little further in order to compensate for the differences. Because of the variation I have some brass that is sized back as much as 0.009" from the fired size. However, I also don't load a given case more than 3-4 times. My nominal setback is about 0.005"
If I've caused more confusion than help, let me know and I'll do my best to answer your questions further.
51, so would it be a safe idea to fire some factory loads, then get that Hornady gadget, measure what my chamber is kicking out, and bump back .004 from there?
This is WAY more difficult than RCBS makes it seem in the video!
Eric, I do believe the brass I was loading for my carbine came out of a SAW, as only 1 in 3 is still less than 1.760" after sizing, and the cases are much more difficult to size than I'm used to. I've shelved that brass, as I don't trust it. The three nasty shells above came out of the ejection port of an AR-15 I built for a friend, Wylde chamber 24" RRA barrel. They were easy to size, nothing weird about them at all, at least until after I got done with em...
All, the part that confuses me the most is how nasty these failures look, they literally look like they were about to blow my head off, and this occured with proven load data from Hornady using instructions provided by RCBS, and no where in either my Hornady or my Speer manual does it mention the possibility of what I'm experiencing. Does the entire reloading industry assume we're all using virgin brass and loading 10% below max?
Headspace has little to nothing to do with what you're seeing. Do NOT push the shoulders back .004 or more as you'll start to get case thinning as the brass flows and stretches, leading to case separations.
The three gnarly cases in the top photo show the cases were properly seated in the chamber. Once fired the pressure was so extreme the brass swelled between the base of the barrel and the bolt face. On the right-hand case the pressure was so extreme that the gases forced their way out of the primer pocket and into the extractor groove of the bolt, following the path of least resistance, and the brass flowed into the ejector hole (inspect your bolt face for flame cutting) and towards the extractor groove cut.. The exterior of the extractor was caught in the barrel extension but did not fail -- I'd inspect it because it's most probably bent.
Ramshot 4.5 shows a max of 24.8 TAC for a Sierra 77 NATO/mil equivalent at 61,500 psi (if your cases are trimmed to proper length and you have personally ensured you have a 5.56mm throat) -- 23.4 for SAAMI pressure around 54,500.
Confirm for me, you ARE trimming the cases to length before seating the bullets, correct? A long neck can pinch the case mouth into the bullet jacket, raising pressure.
How are you throwing these powder charges, and did you confirm there was no powder in the hopper before adding or changing the powders?
Was the case on the left trimmed to length?
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc519/ThaDoubleJ/IMG_0857_zpsc3ad5c6a.jpg
Mostly good info but I wanted to make one correction: There is no difference in exterior, physical dimensions between .223 and 5.56 cases, nor is the HS on 5.56 chambers any longer, relatively, than the HS in .223 chambers. The minimum acceptable HS is 1.4636" and the maximum acceptable HS is 1.4736" for both. It also doesn't make a difference whether the dies are designated .223 or 5.56.
Different brands of brass do size differently but I don't think its necessary to sort them. YMMV
Your point about too much shoulder bump is completely valid, I just wanted to nitpick the details :)
Eric D
Looking at civilian SAAMI cartridge and chamber standards is not the same as military standards. The AR military chamber is .002 larger in diameter and has longer headspace limits.
Gauge Civilian Military Difference
GO 1.4640" 1.4646" +0.0006"
NO-GO 1.4670" 1.4706" +0.0036"
FIELD 1.4700" 1.4730" +0.0030"
Military GO Size Range 1.4646" - 1.4648"
Military NOGO Size Range 1.4704" - 1.4706"
M249 SAW GO Size Range 1.4940" - 1.4947"
M249 SAW NOGO Size Range 1.4982" - 1.4980"
The above headspace range limits show you why I have a small base die set to bring cases fired in military chamber back to minimum dimentions.
There is no such thing as a 5.56 resizing die and at a minimum a .223 full length resizing die will bump the shoulder back .002 shorter than the SAAMI GO gauge. This is the minimum the shoulder will be bumped back shorter with many resizing dies bumping the shoulder back .004 to .006 to ensure a resized case will fit in any .223 chamber. This means at a minimum you can bump the shoulder of a case fired in a AR15 rifle with civilian SAAMI full lenght dies .0086 with the die making contact with the shell holder.
Bottom line, it is very easy to over resize your cases fired in a military type chamber in your AR15 rifles. And as I stated in a earlier posting my Lee .223 full length die will make my cases .010 shorter than their fired length.
I just wanted to nitpick your incorrect details. ;)
I based my statements above by measuring cases fired in a multitude of AR15 rifles and measuring cases fired in civilian SAAMI chambered .223 bolt action rifles. I also based my statements above by measuring full length resized cases from three different full length resizing dies.
I didn't base my statements above by looking at a civilian SAAMI chamber and cartridge drawing.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223_zps8ba4aeef.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556and223chambers_zps87d293d3.gif
And normally military chambers are fatter and longer than their civilian counter parts. BUT this depends on what reamer was used to chamber your AR15 rifle and nothing is written in stone, and resizing dies can be adjusted up and down. ;)
This stuff was all Ultramax remanufactured, probably twice fired. Measured all my cases, seperated the ones longer than 1.760 before I loaded them.
DoubleJ
If you measured the cases "before" you resized them the act of resizing the case can increase the cases OAL "beyond" the max length of 1.760. If your cases were too long this can cause a over pressure condition. I have three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass that was fired by our local police and SWAT teams in a multitude of different AR platforms. All these cases were trimmed to minimum length and full length resized with a small base die.
The cases you have pictured are far, far above normal pressure limits. You need to find out what caused this problem and it wasn't from over resizng the cases. Your cases pictured are Lake City military cases and if this would of happened as an example with a Remington .223 cartridge case the case would have ruptured and you would of had a "Kaboom".
Military cases are made harder in the base to withstand larger chamber diameters and longer headspace standards.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556hard-a.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hardness-a.jpg
Your looking for something that would increase chamber pressure, such as too much powder in the case, cases that are too long, loose necks that would allow the bullet to move when chambered, etc.
51, so would it be a safe idea to fire some factory loads, then get that Hornady gadget, measure what my chamber is kicking out, and bump back .004 from there?
You can get away with this while reloading for a bolt action rifle. I tried this with both an AR-15 and a M1A and some of the reloaded cartridges would still not chamber. I believe that the brass continues to expand while the bolt on a semi-automatic rifle is unlocking during the firing cycle.
If it fits in a Wilson case gauge, it should feed in your rifle.
thopkins22
09-13-13, 14:40
Honest to god that one case is super scary. I'd be inclined to have someone look over my rifle as I'm pretty sure that even M197 doesn't look that bad after firing.
As has been said by Sinister, you need to trim your cases after sizing them(or at the very least do your sorting after sizing.)
I'd be reevaluating my whole system and pulling rounds out of every load I'd done if I had brass looking like that.
Case gauges and trimmers aren't optional equipment.
I load 24.2 gr of TAC with 77 gr Noslers and SMKs in LC brass (brass was purchased new). No pressure signs what-so-ever. All my chambers are 5.56 NATO.
#1. I have to think you are somehow throwing a lot more powder than you think you are. Get a second scale and double check everything - for every charge while loading. Try to determine if your powder measure is sticking and throwing a way-heavy charge at times.
#2. Also watch for bullet set-back. Load some dummies (no powder or primer) and hard cycle (drop the bolt full force) from a magazine several times. This is to verify neck tension as well as the rifle feeding properly.
I have one rifle (pre-ban Colt Upper receiver) that I cannot shoot 68 or heavier gr loads in due to bullet setback. Something about the upper receiver or feed ramps. But I never saw pressure signs anything like you are getting.
I haven't been on this site for a while. WoW! I looks like an over charged case to me. I use LC brass all the time. I don't always trim my cases after resizing and have never seen anything like that. I hope you get it figured out
I've never seen a reamer drawing before so I guess I stand corrected. I didn't know the base diameter, C was 0.002" larger in a 5.56 chamber.
I'm not seeing, though, where 5.56 chambers are longer than .223 chambers - The Colt Field II is 1.4736" for both civilian and military gages. One sample .223 chamber may be shorter than one sample 5.56 chamber but their maximum acceptable limits are the same.
For the purpose of this argument I think we can ignore GO/NO-GO gage dimensions and their variations. Lets just use the minimum HS of 1.4636" as a reference.
The AR military chamber is .002 larger in diameter and has longer headspace limits.
Gauge Civilian Military Difference
GO 1.4640" 1.4646" +0.0006"
NO-GO 1.4670" 1.4706" +0.0036"
FIELD 1.4700" 1.4730" +0.0030"
I have seen these same specs and I'm not challenging their validity but they conflict with the .223 drawing you posted where 1.4736 is called out as the max HS - For practical purposes 1.4736 is the number I'm concerned with.
Military GO Size Range 1.4646" - 1.4648"
Military NOGO Size Range 1.4704" - 1.4706"
There is no such thing as a 5.56 resizing die and at a minimum a .223 full length resizing die will bump the shoulder back .002 shorter than the SAAMI GO gauge. I'm confused by this too because, even as you mentioned, dies can be adjusted up and down. I don't see how a die automatically causes a minimum shoulder bump as you can always back it out.
I've never seen a reamer drawing before so I guess I stand corrected. I didn't know the base diameter, C was 0.002" larger in a 5.56 chamber.
I'm not seeing, though, where 5.56 chambers are longer than .223 chambers
Look "closely" at (L) below, the 5.56 chamber is .004 longer than the .223 and "LOOK" at the "differences" between chambers listed at the far right. The 5.56 chamber is "fatter" and "longer" than the .223 chamber.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556and223chambers_zps87d293d3.gif
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, BUT I have been retired for over six years and have been reloading for over 46 years. I also collect milsurp rifles and can tell you military chambers are always fatter and longer than their civilian counter parts.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/183911.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/m14chamber.jpg
The worst diffrence between civilian and military standards is the British Enfield .303 rifle. At maximum military headspace with a "civilian" cartridge you can have .017 head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.
The center headspace gauge below is the SAAMI NO-GO gauge and is .007 shorter than military maximum.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspcegauges.jpg
And bumping the shoulder back to far in a military chamber will cause the case to stretch in the base web area and cause case head separations.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacestretch-c.gif
Thanks all for the help, I'm learning alot here. Lemme start by laying out my reloading procedure, step by step.
Important: I do not own a trimmer. I will not load another round until I do.
1. Tumble brass, pick out all the LC stuff to load
2. Visual inspection for anything weird
3. Lube cases on RCBS pad until they just barely stick to my hand
4. Shell holder in ram, ram all the way up, die to shell holder, ram
down, die down 1/8 turn, tighten lock ring.
5. Size and deprime case
6. Measure case for 1.760", all cases under that length go in the block
all over that length go in the "trim" bag
7. Clean primer pocket, prime with CCI BR-4 primer, check that
primer is slightly below flush
8. Set powder drop to drop charge .5gr less than my target load for
precision loads, drop charge into pan
9. Trickle additional powder into pan until I'm at my target weight
10. Put powder in case, compare all cases under light to verify they
all look similar
11. Sizing die out, case in shell holder, ram up, seating down down
to case mouth, then back out 1/4 turn to avoid crimp
12. 77gr Nosler in the case, seat and adjust until 2.24" COAL,
tighten seater plug, seat another, remeasure next 2 just in case
13. Mark all cases to ID them on my notes
As far as LC brass vs (Insert headstamp here) brass, I do the exact same thing with both LC and FC brass, and the worst that's ever happened with FC brass is a couple loose primers at the very top of some load data I was working on with RL-15 powder. With TAC and AR-Comp, I've never gotten near max, and with 8208 I've gone .3gr over published max looking for more velocity, and still have yet to see any pressure signs with FC brass. With LC brass, I've had this happen at the bottom end of published data.
As far as my scale goes, I also reload for the notoriously terrifying 5.7x28, and compare loads with someone I know. We run the same modifications on the FiveseveN pistol, and our loads are within 40FPS of each other every time. I don't suspect my 5-0-5 scale, but just to be sure, is there something I can weigh in it, maybe a SMK, to be sure that it's spot on?
Shootist: I have ten rounds still loaded from this batch that I was going to pull down, I'll cycle them hard and then re-measure
Edit: I just did this, 5 rounds, I dropped the bolt on them from the bolt catch 3x with a full length Tubb spring behind them.
On the second cycle, one of them grew by .002", the rest stayed exactly 2.250"
Sinister: The photo of the side by side brass/loaded round is an LC brass straight out of my ejection port with no pressure signs, and a reloaded FC brass'd round, to illustrate similar looking shoulders.
Eric: The rifle has a round count around <500, and this is the first issue I've experienced. It's digested all forms of factory ammo from 40gr to 77gr, .223 and real 5.56.
Your reloading procedure looks pretty good. I check all of my resized and trimmed brass with a case gauge before priming to make certain I am not wasting a primer on an oversize case.
Have you measured the brass thickness of the FC and LC cases at the mouth? Is there a substantial difference in thickness? Do you think that the rigidity of the LC cases combined with thicker case walls could cause your crimp to be significantly tighter than with the FC cases?
How much crimp do you use, 0.001"? 0.0015"? More?
9. Trickle additional powder into pan until I'm at my target weight
The majority of balance beam scales are magnetic dampened, static electricity can throw the scales off. Having metal or plastic around or under the scales can cause incorrect weight readings. Florescent lighting above the reloading bench can cause erroneous reading. Check your scales with check weights to confirm readings.
12. 77gr Nosler in the case, seat and adjust until 2.24" COAL,
tighten seater plug, seat another, remeasure next 2 just in case
The Nosler manual for 5.56 loads and their 77 grain bullet shows a case length of 2.260. Seating bullets deeper decreases case capacity and raises chamber pressures.
Take the remaining loaded cases you have, place the bullet tip on your reloading bench and push on the case and see if the bullet can be pushed back into the case. If they move you may have found the problem.
thopkins22
09-13-13, 17:10
4. Shell holder in ram, ram all the way up, die to shell holder, ram down, die down 1/8 turn, tighten lock ring.
This may have nothing to do with your problem, but this is a great place to start verifying your cases from...not to assume they're being sized properly. It may size them perfectly, it may not size them enough, or it may size them too much. You don't know, and can't know without a means to measure them.
Pick up a case gauge with your purchase of a trimmer...it's ~$20 well spent.
Contrary to popular belief Lake City 5.56 military cases are not thicker or have less case capacity than .223 cartridge cases. As you can see below Lake City cases have the highest internal case volume and with Remington and Winchester cases weighing more than Lake City cases.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/casecap_zpsb0f5b356.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223-556weight_zps16e71a4f.jpg
51: I measured 5 77gr SMKs, the scale leveled out at 76.9gr, I don't have one of those weight sets. The closest CFL is in the next room, all my lighting is halogen in the area of the bench. The bench is all wood, the only metal on it is my press and powder drop, plus the plate they're mounted to, but my scale is located a couple feet away. My 2.24" COAL is a copy of the Mk262 Mod 1 that I'm trying to duplicate. I just took a loaded shell and pounded it on a concrete carpeted floor, measured at 2.25", then I smashed it into the carpet and pressed down hard enough break stuff, and it still remained 2.25"
T2C: I don't crimp the cases, tried that once without trimming them all to the same length, got alot of failures to chamber.
Is it possible that my failures were the cases that measured 1.760, like maybe my chamber is just a tiny bit too tight, and all the ones 1.759 or 758 and smaller functioned fine?
I sort all by LC and other .223 brass in lots of length spanning .005". In example I will group 1.749" through 1.754" and so on. Anything beyond 1.760" goes to the trimmer lot. That way I can lightly crimp the rounds as I load out each lot the re adjust the die when I change to the next longer lot. I also use the Hornady bullet comparator to verify the seating depth to match my chamber/throat dimension that my 5.56mm rifles perform best at. The Mk 12 spr type rifle I built likes the bullets .005" off the lands and the Stag model 3 16" carbine shoots better with the bullets (55g Nosler FBHP in both rifles) with the bullets at .015" off the lands. Both barrels are 5.56mm chambered.
I might make the suggestion to mock up a dummy cartridge where the neck tension is slightly low and seat the bullet long. Then chamber it using the forward assist, instead of releasing the bolt, then extract/eject the round and measure for maximum chamber/throat length to the lands. No 2 rifles are exactly the same and a short lead or throat could cause the pressures to spike. It's also nice to "Know" the chamber dimension of every rifle you load for.
Is it possible that my failures were the cases that measured 1.760, like maybe my chamber is just a tiny bit too tight, and all the ones 1.759 or 758 and smaller functioned fine?
I wouldn't reload any more until you have "ALL" the proper equipment, and you need a case trimmer and the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge for starters. You also need more reloading manuals and to read the front of the manuals for more insight into reloading.
All the information in the world is written in books and all you need to do is read. ;)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/SCN_0001_zps77ea1a4c.jpg
I wouldn't reload any more until you have "ALL" the proper equipment, and you need a case trimmer and the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge for starters.
I totally agree
Thanks all for the help, I'm learning alot here. Lemme start by laying out my reloading procedure, step by step.
Important: I do not own a trimmer. I will not load another round until I do.
1. Tumble brass, pick out all the LC stuff to load
2. Visual inspection for anything weird
3. Lube cases on RCBS pad until they just barely stick to my hand
4. Shell holder in ram, ram all the way up, die to shell holder, ram
down, die down 1/8 turn, tighten lock ring.
5. Size and deprime case
6. Measure case for 1.760", all cases under that length go in the block
all over that length go in the "trim" bag
7. Clean primer pocket, prime with CCI BR-4 primer, check that
primer is slightly below flush
8. Set powder drop to drop charge .5gr less than my target load for
precision loads, drop charge into pan
9. Trickle additional powder into pan until I'm at my target weight
10. Put powder in case, compare all cases under light to verify they
all look similar
11. Sizing die out, case in shell holder, ram up, seating down down
to case mouth, then back out 1/4 turn to avoid crimp
12. 77gr Nosler in the case, seat and adjust until 2.24" COAL,
tighten seater plug, seat another, remeasure next 2 just in case
13. Mark all cases to ID them on my notes
As far as LC brass vs (Insert headstamp here) brass, I do the exact same thing with both LC and FC brass, and the worst that's ever happened with FC brass is a couple loose primers at the very top of some load data I was working on with RL-15 powder. With TAC and AR-Comp, I've never gotten near max, and with 8208 I've gone .3gr over published max looking for more velocity, and still have yet to see any pressure signs with FC brass. With LC brass, I've had this happen at the bottom end of published data.
As far as my scale goes, I also reload for the notoriously terrifying 5.7x28, and compare loads with someone I know. We run the same modifications on the FiveseveN pistol, and our loads are within 40FPS of each other every time. I don't suspect my 5-0-5 scale, but just to be sure, is there something I can weigh in it, maybe a SMK, to be sure that it's spot on?
Shootist: I have ten rounds still loaded from this batch that I was going to pull down, I'll cycle them hard and then re-measure
Edit: I just did this, 5 rounds, I dropped the bolt on them from the bolt catch 3x with a full length Tubb spring behind them.
On the second cycle, one of them grew by .002", the rest stayed exactly 2.250"
.....
Assuming you chambered the 5 round from a magazine each time, all sounds normal.
I have a 10-10 scale and it's very easy to be a full 1.0 grain off when setting it up. And of course it has to be zeroed fairly often as well, even though it's not on my reloading bench...Just food for thought. [I'm so paranoid I use an electronic scale to check my balance beam setting.]
IIRC, my 77 grain bullets generally weigh about 0.1 grain light.
Sparky5019
09-14-13, 10:11
DoubleJ,
You mentioned the barrel had a Wylde chamber, are you trimming and sizing your cases (LC or not) to the Wylde dimensions? I agree with what the experts above have have said but if the rounds gage ok for 5.56 but they're going into a Wylde chamber with different dimensions, one could see what happened to your cases.
I may be wrong but I think Wylde has even a tighter throat dimension than .223.
The pic of the round that "flowed" and blew looks like the neck was again constricted just below the neck like it was too long for the throat and that's where your over pressure came from.
Just my thoughts.
Sparky, my understanding of the Wylde chamber is that it's somewhere in the middle of .223 and 5.56 as far as throat and leade, giving some accuracy advantage over the 5.56, but still allowing use of 5.56 ammo without the pressure issues of using 5.56 in a .223 chamber. It would seem from what I'm learning here that maybe I have a very tight, or maybe short, Wylde chamber, and without trimming to 1.750 that 51s diagram is what's happening.
Sparky, my understanding of the Wylde chamber is that it's somewhere in the middle of .223 and 5.56 as far as throat and leade, giving some accuracy advantage over the 5.56, but still allowing use of 5.56 ammo without the pressure issues of using 5.56 in a .223 chamber. It would seem from what I'm learning here that maybe I have a very tight, or maybe short, Wylde chamber, and without trimming to 1.750 that 51s diagram is what's happening.
A "Max Trim Length Gage Set" will tell you if the trim length is an issue or not. I have a set that came from Midway-USA years ago. Generally you will find you have a lot of leeway, but I suppose anything is possible. You will need the ability to trim a sized case way below normal, btw.
Until you get a good set of calipers, a Hornady LNL or Stoney Point gage, and perhaps a drop-in case gage you don't really know what your case dimensions are, let alone your chamber dimensions. Comparing by eyeball and already fired cases is a NO-GO.
In this graph (posted previously) you can see the differences between Wylde and 5.56 dimensions from a variety of different reamer manufacturers.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223-556-b.jpg
The neck ("F") dimension on a Wylde is wider than most of the 5.56 reamers listed, but the freebore diameter is smaller than most. Too long a case can/may/will contribute to unsafe pressures.
To date you've been lucky you haven't injured yourself. You need to check the guns where the cases showed excessive/dangerous pressure signs to see if they've been damaged and are possibly unsafe.
You need to check the guns where the cases showed excessive/dangerous pressure signs to see if they've been damaged and are possibly unsafe.
I took the AR apart when I got home, and I can't find any evidence of damage to the bolt or barrel extension. It also fired a couple groups after those mushy cases with no issues and good accuracy. All seems well with it, glad I paid for good parts when I built it.
Sparky5019
09-14-13, 13:52
Sparky, my understanding of the Wylde chamber is that it's somewhere in the middle of .223 and 5.56 as far as throat and leade, giving some accuracy advantage over the 5.56, but still allowing use of 5.56 ammo without the pressure issues of using 5.56 in a .223 chamber. It would seem from what I'm learning here that maybe I have a very tight, or maybe short, Wylde chamber, and without trimming to 1.750 that 51s diagram is what's happening.
From what I've read the Wylde has the same freebore as .223; I'll research that but regardless of that dimension, the brass needs to be gaged and trimmed. To think there is a "magic bullet" in a chamber setup that would negate the need for proper case prep would be fool's errand, IMO. If you're going to trouble yourself to go through what loading bottleneck rifle cartridges requires, then take the care to do it correctly and safely. There are plenty of cheap, man powered trimmers out there.
Just my opinion.
Sparky5019
09-14-13, 21:41
Until you get a good set of calipers, a Hornady LNL or Stoney Point gage, and perhaps a drop-in case gage you don't really know what your case dimensions are, let alone your chamber dimensions. Comparing by eyeball and already fired cases is a NO-GO.
In this graph (posted previously) you can see the differences between Wylde and 5.56 dimensions from a variety of different reamer manufacturers.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223-556-b.jpg
The neck ("F") dimension on a Wylde is wider than most of the 5.56 reamers listed, but the freebore diameter is smaller than most. Too long a case can/may/will contribute to unsafe pressures.
To date you've been lucky you haven't injured yourself. You need to check the guns where the cases showed excessive/dangerous pressure signs to see if they've been damaged and are possibly unsafe.
Thanks! I was looking for those numbers; I failed to see them above! ;)
Sparky5019
09-14-13, 21:48
DoubleJ,
Also, Ned Christiansen makes a chamber gauge and 5.56 conversion reamer that will open the chamber to 5.56 spec.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
If you decide longer is better. He makes excellent stuff. Gauge is beautiful and reamer will only cut the chamber throat. I used it the other day on an old barrel for a guy. Works great!
I hope this helps.
I have been loading pistol for a couple years now and have just started loading 223's for my AR. Learned a lot by watching this thread, reading what all you guys have been talking about.
Thanks to all you guys on M4Carbine's.
DoubleJ,
You mentioned the barrel had a Wylde chamber, are you trimming and sizing your cases (LC or not) to the Wylde dimensions? I agree with what the experts above have have said but if the rounds gage ok for 5.56 but they're going into a Wylde chamber with different dimensions, one could see what happened to your cases.
I may be wrong but I think Wylde has even a tighter throat dimension than .223.
The pic of the round that "flowed" and blew looks like the neck was again constricted just below the neck like it was too long for the throat and that's where your over pressure came from.
Just my thoughts.
I have a Wylde chamber in my match rifle. Ammunition loaded to .223 dimensions works fine. If it fits in a Wilson .223 gauge, it will run in the rifle.
Sparky5019
09-15-13, 21:19
If it fits in a Wilson .223 gauge, it will run in the rifle.
Exactly! ;)
The only thing the dies below have in common with all the chamber types is the amount of shoulder bump we can give the cases.
So it doesn't matter how "wild" your chamber is or if the chamber wears fatigues or blue jeans, when all that matters is shoulder bump.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223dies002_zps87879768.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/b2k8-a_zpse1730951.jpg
And a Wilson case gauge will NOT allow you to measure fired cases because they are too FAT to fit inside the gauge.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge003_zps5d8923e5.jpg
I'm gonna get the Hornady measure and the case gage, but the trimmer is going to have to wait, forgot how much it costs to outfit the little one for ski season.
You can buy a Lee case trimmer for around $12.00
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Leetrimmer_zps15cbb0c1.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/trimmers_zps39b709e4.jpg
I remembered that I had some freshly fired LC brass in the tumbler, so I measured three pieces of it with my new Hornady headspace measuring gadget. I got 3.460, 3.4605, and 3.4615. Then I put my die in like normal, hit the shell holder, +1/8th turn, and sized those three. I got 3.4555, 3.4555, and 3.4560. Looks like my system of setting the die up bumps the headspace back 4-5 thousanths, and 3-4 seems to be ideal. Could 1/1000 too much headspace bump be causing these problems? Is it possible that maybe 1.760 trim length is just too long for my rifle? One thing I remembered is that with FC brass, I'm never anywhere near 1.760, usually 1.754 or less. All the LC brass seems to be longer when I get it, like 1.758+. I still need a trimmer, but with what I've learned here, I'm running short on ideas.
1.76" is the max. After being once fired and sized most of my LC brass is between 1.757 and 1.76. I really don't like the mouth anywhere near the end of the chamber so I trim them all back to 1.75.
I backed my die out, ran the ram up, touched the shell holder, and sized some more cases. Now my headspace is all over the place, 5 or 6 thousanths difference between the handful of cases I measured.
Do you have a way to zero your caliper? If not, you should subtract the length of the measuring device from the overall measurement. Your measurements are fine, they just have an extra ~2.00 inches. Subtracting that value gives you numbers that just make a little more sense (That's my preference at least).
It looks like your chamber's HS is right near the lower end of the spectrum - which is fine, and actually desirable. Your shoulder bump looks good too. I don't think 0.001 makes a difference.
I remembered that I had some freshly fired LC brass in the tumbler, so I measured three pieces of it with my new Hornady headspace measuring gadget. I got 3.460, 3.4605, and 3.4615. Then I put my die in like normal, hit the shell holder, +1/8th turn, and sized those three. I got 3.4555, 3.4555, and 3.4560. Looks like my system of setting the die up bumps the headspace back 4-5 thousanths, and 3-4 seems to be ideal. Could 1/1000 too much headspace bump be causing these problems? Is it possible that maybe 1.760 trim length is just too long for my rifle? One thing I remembered is that with FC brass, I'm never anywhere near 1.760, usually 1.754 or less. All the LC brass seems to be longer when I get it, like 1.758+. I still need a trimmer, but with what I've learned here, I'm running short on ideas.
It's been a long day, didn't even occur to me to zero my caliper against the gadget before I took the measurements.
If you have some factory ammo or good surplus 5.56 (IMI for example), you can check the measurements for those against your fired cases. I think you will find your three LC sized cases were probably OK @ ~.005" shoulder setback. (I've done this with .308/7.62, but don't remember if I did the same with .223/5.56.)
Anyway, you will have another data point - but the sizer setting does not appear to the issue (IMO). Get some Hornady lock ring assemblies so you can come back to the same die settings every time instead of estimating that 1/8ish turn down.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1165236200/hornady-sure-loc-die-locking-ring-7-8-14-thread
If you just touch the ram with the (empty) sizer die, it probably won't touch under a load (when actually sizing a case). That's likely what's causing the big variance in the later shoulder measurements. It would be less if all the cases were the same age and brand - and were fired in the same rifle.
My SWAG remains that something was wrong with your reloads - the powder charge got off somehow or even the wrong powder (or bullets) got mixed in. (Or something along those lines.)
I was thinking at work today, they don't pay me to do that, but rules were made to be broken. I've never had this problem with Federal brass, even with the same load recipes. Let's say my chamber, being a Wylde, is a tiny bit short (tight?) at the neck. I put in a Federal shell, 1.760", overcharged with 8208, and the bullet comes out the muzzle, shell comes out the ejection port, no problem. Same recipe, but with LC brass, and things go wrong. Is it possible that the softer (so I've heard) Federal brass mooshes a little more, allowing pressures to stay OK, while the harder (so I've heard) LC brass doesn't give, and instead creates a high pressure that breaks stuff? Maybe my rifle's trim length should be something like 1.755" instead of 1.760"?
If you had fired Federal cases instead of Lake City cases your rifle would have had a Kaboom. Lake City cases are made to higher standards and have a stronger base which saved your a$$.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg
The right and left cases are Lake City, the center case is Federal, has softer brass and thinner at the flash hole web. A Federal case would have ruptured and damaged your rifle and possibly injured you.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fedcasethickness_zpsd43801c6.jpg
The following is from Hornady internal ballistics.
When an overlength case is chambered, the mouth or edge of the neck will come up against the throat (left, top) before the bolt has fully closed or the case shoulder has contacted the chamber (left, upper middle). The camming action of the bolt is so powerful that it will actually crimp the case mouth fully into the bullet (left, lower middle) and wedge the case so solidly between the bullet and the throat that the neck cannot expand to release the bullet. Chamber pressures in this situation can and most certainly will go dangerously high (left, bottom).
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/reloading_pg11_zps5cef45a1.jpg
My guess is you did "NOT" trim your cases to proper length and three of them would not release the bullet as pictured above and caused the extremely high chamber pressures.
Maximum case length is 1.760 and minimum is 1.750 and I trim my cases to minimum length to keep from having problems like you had.
The only thing you should be thinking about is having the proper equipment to reload and buying reloading manuals and reading the front of the manual on "HOW" to reload. You came very close to blowing up your rifle and what happened was your wake up call!
I'm definately awake, that's why I'm here looking to more experienced reloaders. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I bought a press, a postal scale, and an unmarked can of powder and just started making bullets while I smoke and have a bourbon. First thing I bought was the RCBS reloading DVD. It's aweful, but I watched it 10 times at least. Then I read the Speer and Hornady manuals (14 and 8) cover to cover. Then I bought all the basic stuff, put that DVD in my laptop, and followed it step by step.
That DVD, both manuals, and everything else I've read says I can measure a case to 1.760" after sizing, I don't have to trim it, and I can stick a published load, under max, into that case and fire it. When I did that, the shells from my first post happened and it concerned me.
I got the headspace gadget, and still need to play around with that to find an ideal die setting, but it seems that .005 bump to the shoulder is acceptable. I'm still going to get a trimmer before I continue loading this round, but I'm also still trying to figure out why some 25 or so rounds fired fine, and the three above look like I put 25 grains of Unique in them. I'm positive of my powder, bullets, and scale, so it has to be case length, yeah?
I know what I gotta do, but I also HAVE to know what happened, and why it only happened with LC, nowhere near max, while with Federal cases I was able to take 8208 .3gr above max and still see no pressure signs. I also worked up hot loads with RL-15, started to get leaky primers on a 95 degree day, backed down .1gr and no more pressure. The only thing I can think is that for some reason, all my Federal brass is short, and all my LC brass is long, so my chamber must be short.
Sparky5019
10-05-13, 23:48
Ok, Dude...
No offense but...
You've got a hard-on for the shoulder bump; the only thing should set back does is restore or control headspace. Too much, you're screwed; too little, you're screwed. That's what the case gauge is for.
YOU CANNOT CONTROL OAL BY SETTING BACK THE SHOULDER! The guy who told you that is a moron.
Overall length needs to be controlled by trimming. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is full of shit (especially if the cases have not ever been trimmed)! Every time the case is fired, it grows due to thinning and stretching. The sizing die can also stretch it if the expander ball is out of position or is too large or even the wrong shape or too "rough".
I think EVERYONE has said the same thing here; TRIM TO MINIMUM.
Glen Zediker wrote "Handloading for Competition" available at http://www.zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html.
The good people at Dillon are also very helpful as a resource. When you're loading a bottleneck rifle round, EVERYTHING matters. I recently made a small change and started seeing pressure and popping out primers...so I had to adjust and retest. 0.010". Makes a difference especially if it's in the wrong place!
You want to know what happened? YOU F**KED UP!! We've all done it! Stop trying figure out what little thing you did wrong and START OVER to learn the process THE RIGHT WAY! Glen's book is a good start. No one can teach you how to safely load a bottleneck rifle cartridge in a 1 hour DVD; Glen's book is an inch thick!
Everyone is happy to help but YOU have to LEARN, not whine about why it happened while maintaining you were right!!:suicide:
Get the book. Read it. Report back!! We'll be glad to help you tweak.
Otherwise, post pics of the injuries; they'll be entertaining.
Sparky Out.
As I have stated earlier I have just recently started loading 223 Rem, I am a very careful person by nature because of the dangers I live with at work. Last month I started to load 223 and quickly loaded a few "to try out" then my common sense for safety kicked in and went out and bought a case gauge and trimmer. I am now taking my time and carefully making each round, learning the in's and out's of rifle loading. In large part this thread has helped me get into the right mentality for making safe 223 rounds. Have been doing a lot of reading on the subject.
Sparky and others, I wish to thank you for the time you guys take in helping us new reloaders.
Phil
As I have stated earlier I have just recently started loading 223 Rem, I am a very careful person by nature because of the dangers I live with at work. Last month I started to load 223 and quickly loaded a few "to try out" then my common sense for safety kicked in and went out and bought a case gauge and trimmer. I am now taking my time and carefully making each round, learning the in's and out's of rifle loading. In large part this thread has helped me get into the right mentality for making safe 223 rounds. Have been doing a lot of reading on the subject.
Sparky and others, I wish to thank you for the time you guys take in helping us new reloaders.
Phil I started loading in 1976 and never had any safety problems or even close to damage or kaboom . 4 years ago I bought case gauges and I wondered why I didn't buy them from day 1.
Double J,
As others have said, buy a reloading book. I have a well worn Hornady reloading manual that I bought before I started loading rifle ammunition and the book is worth it's weight in gold.
If I were in your shoes I would not reload another round until I read a good reloading manual, then start from square 1 again.
I've been back over all previous pages and I seem to still be missing: are you trimming your cases; and what charges/where are you getting your data (i.e., I haven't read what your AR-Comp charges were that were giving you such gnarly fired cases -- are you getting these from the powder or bullet manufatruer's sites, or from manuals/brochures)?
The Alliant site doesn't list a charge for Hornady 50s.
I don't own a trimmer, I was measuring, and anything longer than 1.760 went into a bag marked "trim" for when I got one.
I own Hornady's 8th and 9th, as well as Speer's 14th manuals, and have read the last two cover to cover.
I called alliant, and they said I was safe to use the 52gr recipes for the 50gr bullets since that was all I could find.
I've stopped loading 223 until I have a trimmer, now I'm just gathering more info and learning more for the time being.
That brass is sure beat up. The most important thing is that you did not get hurt.
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