View Full Version : Trust a USMC Armorer with your rifle???
So I was getting ready to get some work done on my AR when I came to the realization I have friends that work in the unit armory. I asked them if they could do some work on my rifle and they said they would do it. The question is would you trust the Marine armorer with your upper reciever or would you take it to a local gushop?
No.
I would do it myself.
Does said friend hold the MOS of 2111? If so, how long? What work are you considering?
Said Marine is a Armorer by trade and has been here for about 2 years at the School of Infantry dealing with a lot of M16/M4 and M27. Also the work is FF rail removal/installation and barrel nut removal/installation.
GUNSLINGER733
09-13-13, 14:50
A caveman could do said work with right tools
So I was getting ready to get some work done on my AR when I came to the realization I have friends that work in the unit armory. I asked them if they could do some work on my rifle and they said they would do it. The question is would you trust the Marine armorer with your upper reciever or would you take it to a local gushop?
It would depend on what parts. If your unit armorer is just filling a slot and doing a job, I would say no. If they are passionate about their job and have an interest in firearms, yes.
I've seen military armorers that were simply filling a slot because they didn't want to do other work, and I've seen some that could fabricate parts when needed and design components.
I've seen some that could fabricate parts when needed and design components.
I dont think that he is that good but several others have had their rifles worked on or assembled by these guys and had no issues.
SilverBullet432
09-13-13, 15:34
Well, seeing as that alot of military personell see their rifles as tools, and nothing else, as compared to a gunsmith who might be more passionate in his work. Id say, study his work first
Find out if he's an avid gun guy - assuming time is not of the essence...
Like any other professional he will have a level of competence, but only those that have been serviced by him could attest to his ability. That said the work you want done is rather basic so I would give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
Would not let him touch it
A caveman could do said work with right tools
Competently, professionally, returning a functional product? Too many believe these guns are legos. Their work shows it.
Does said friend hold the MOS of 2111? If so, how long? What work are you considering?
On the above, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "armorer" often an assigned extra duty or detail, and not a specific, trained skill set? I know of mil "armorers" in a different branch of service I would not allow to clean my gun, much less perform any measure of maintenance or assembly.
It would depend on what parts. If your unit armorer is just filling a slot and doing a job, I would say no. If they are passionate about their job and have an interest in firearms, yes.
I've seen military armorers that were simply filling a slot because they didn't want to do other work, and I've seen some that could fabricate parts when needed and design components.
Not so much in the Marine Corps, a Small Arms Weapons Repairman/armorer is a specific MOS (2111) and they can do all the basic swaps of part on current weapon system with the exception of precision weapons. Than you have Precision Weapons Repairman/Armor (MOS 2112) who are full on gunsmiths.
In the Marine Corps the people who you are referring to are Armory Custodians and they are not called armorers.
A caveman could do said work with right tools
Exactly.
Do it yourself bro, you need a better understanding of how your rifle works.
This same question could be targeted at a civilian gunsmith as well. Just cause they have the certs doesn't mean they have good work. This goes for any trade or skill, military or otherwise. Either look at his work, if there is any aside from issued weapons, or lock him into a conversation regarding the extent of his knowledge/passion for the job and use your best judgement.
If it were me I'd get the tools required, do the research, and do the work myself. Learn your weapon, become more proficient.
I dont think that he is that good but several others have had their rifles worked on or assembled by these guys and had no issues.
You just answered your question. If I had the slightest doubt or negative opinion of his work I wouldn't be using him.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-13-13, 21:13
I taught my armorer many things...things he should have known.
If you haven't seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off, get it and fast forward to the scene where they give the keys to the Ferrari to a garage attendant...
...who promptly tear out of the garage with it and go all Dukes of Hazzard on the streets of Chicago.
Putting aside whether or not he's capable, that's the baseline for leaving personal weapons with a unit armorer across the Corps; it's certainly not the same everywhere, just very common. Plus, you're not a customer, and you have virtually no means of redress if your gun ends up upgefuched.
If your local conditions are different than that...i.e., he's done right by others whom you can directly verify via independent references (people that don't have a personal/professional stake in keeping the armorer happy with them)..., then have at it. I've known both those that I trust implicitly, and those that I wouldn't trust with my @#$% toothbrush, much less a personally-owned gun.
theblackknight
09-13-13, 22:28
In the Marine Corps the people who you are referring to are Armory Custodians and they are not called armorers.
THIS
There is usually a reason these stoic warriors:bad: are on the other side of the trap door, and it's not a positive one.
Buy the special tools yourself, use the base metal shop,profit!
The correct name for Army and Marine Corps is Small Arms Repairman. However, often times those of us in the armorer field use the "armorer" moniker.
There are plenty of guys at unit levels that are not MOS 2111 or MOS 45B and they are simply custodians who were thrown into the job.
I worked closely with both branches in Iraq in the 05-06 time frame.
Competently, professionally, returning a functional product? Too many believe these guns are legos. Their work shows it.
On the above, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "armorer" often an assigned extra duty or detail, and not a specific, trained skill set? I know of mil "armorers" in a different branch of service I would not allow to clean my gun, much less perform any measure of maintenance or assembly.
I am curious why you would say this? I don't know his guy from Adam, but I know plenty of civilian "gunsmiths" who I wouldn't let touch an airsoft weapon, let alone a real one.
I met some Small Arms guys who knew their shit and others who were dangerous with a monkey wrench.
Would not let him touch it
In my experience, the guy in the arms room was broken, which is why he was in the arms room.
I am curious why you would say this? I don't know his guy from Adam, but I know plenty of civilian "gunsmiths" who I wouldn't let touch an airsoft weapon, let alone a real one.
I met some Small Arms guys who knew their shit and others who were dangerous with a monkey wrench.
Because statistics is not on the OP's side. I wouldn't let either a civilian or military armorer touch my gun unless they were thoroughly vetted. I don't want it coming back with bent barrel nut teeth or other tool marks.
As someone who works both the military and commercial side the answer is easy - engage him in some rather in-depth conversation relating to the AR. His answers and stance on things should bring you to your conclusion.
My first real training in the field of small arms repair was in 1997. I have been growing ever since and will until the day I die. As has been pointed out in this thread before not all small arms guys are the same. Some are an Armorer in title only.
Certain things I won't touch, unless I own it or the only one I answer to is myself. Everything from Trapdoor Springfields to Lee Enfields to ARs are the same - if you know the platform and your limitations you really can't frig it up.
You just need to figure out where this guy falls.
Obviously he doesn't feel he can do it himself and he may not have the tools. So what do you suggest?
Because statistics is not on the OP's side. I wouldn't let either a civilian or military armorer touch my gun unless they were thoroughly vetted. I don't want it coming back with bent barrel nut teeth or other tool marks.
USAF Combat Arms Training and Maintenance. The AF version of armorers, authorized to do up to and including depot level maintenance (welded a few 60 receivers in my day) for the last 20 years. We do nothing but repair small arms and run the firing range. I have met maybe 20 "armorers" in my career that were little more than parts replacement specialists. Just keep throwing new parts on it until it works is the basic mantra. When I first went through training back in 93, we were given guns with a specific broken or weak or missing part and had to diagnose, repair, and test that gun to pass. Now not so much. Do the repairs yourself. Then you will now it is done right.
I taught my armorer many things...things he should have known.
I guess I could throw my hat in this ring.
I can't count the times that I had to work on rifles while at the range in Yuma AZ because our unit armorer had no idea what to do. He couldn't remove or reinstall an M5 RAS, torque an RCO, or even tighten a stock.
That said, we did have one alternate armorer that was very good at swapping fire control groups.
So its all up the the individual skills of the armorer, check before letting them touch your rifle.
Make sure you post pictures of your rifle here when its done, Joe
Seems to me if he works on weapons that Marines train with he could work on yours. I'm sure those weapons in SOI see more abuse by boot Marines than a lot of personal weapons
Failure2Stop
09-21-13, 08:50
Seems to me if he works on weapons that Marines train with he could work on yours. I'm sure those weapons in SOI see more abuse by boot Marines than a lot of personal weapons
Highly depends on what "work" he is authorized to do. There are different echelons of maintenance, and different firearms have different authorizations.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
BOOSTjunkie
09-21-13, 09:50
Highly depends on what "work" he is authorized to do. There are different echelons of maintenance, and different firearms have different authorizations.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Highly agree with this... generally people on the other side of the cage in the arms room are just filling a slot and went to a basic course that taught them how to swap out basic parts and do rudimentary maintenance on issued weapons types only. From personal experience I have seen the majority of these people know very little as far are firearms knowledge outside of what they have taught. For more advanced weapons repairs and work it is usually sent off to the next higher level of maintenance to be handled by individuals that were specifically MOS trained. But the important thing to remember here is they were only trained for issued weapons platforms and probably wouldn't know how to do work on aftermarket parts. Unless they are "gun guys" with personal knowledge and experience in the platform I would consider learning yourself and doing your own work.
IndianaBoy
09-21-13, 10:42
I am curious why you would say this? I don't know his guy from Adam, but I know plenty of civilian "gunsmiths" who I wouldn't let touch an airsoft weapon, let alone a real one.
I met some Small Arms guys who knew their shit and others who were dangerous with a monkey wrench.
This.
I would trust a Marine armorer I didn't know over the joke that is my local 'gunsmith'.
Nightvisionary
09-22-13, 10:24
My experience is a bit skewed as the most incompentent Marine I ever served with was a small arms repairman. You think THEY would know better than anyone that the feed tray on an M-60E3 should be down and locked before firing. How do you get behind a belt fed MG and not notice that before pulling the trigger? I guess if he is a NCO or motivated Lance Corporal why not.
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