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wingspar
09-14-13, 19:26
I recently bought a Mosin Nagant M44. They thought it was a Russian model, but it turned out to be a rare Romanian model worth about 3 times what I paid for it. What I didn’t see at the LGS when I bought it was the packed copper deposits near the muzzle. I’ve gone thru hundreds of patches and dozens of wire brushing with a copper solvent and have barely touch it. Couldn’t wait to shoot it, so I took it to the range, but never hit paper at 50 or 20 yards, so yesterday I took my bench and a very large target to see where the bullets were going. I had the target set up at 25 yards, and finally hit the paper on the 9th round. It hit about 12 inches above where I was aiming, and it was definitely tumbling when the bullet hit the paper.

LGS is familiar with the copper problem in the bore, but today I showed them the target. They suspect bullet weight to be the problem. I was shooting Prvi Partizan 182 grain FMJ. I have another 100 rounds of the stuff that just shipped today, but they ordered some 150 grain Prvi Partizan and I’ll just trade some of the 182 grain stuff for the 150 grain stuff when it comes in.

Does anyone have any other thoughts on why I can’t tell where the bullets are going and why they would tumble at 25 yards?

Mac5.56
09-14-13, 21:10
Yea,

Your barrel is shot. That would be my wild ass guess.

I would waste no time trying to fix it, if it is worth triple a russian one I would sell it to a collector and be done with it.

RazorBurn
09-14-13, 21:41
Sounds like the barrel is shot out, and the rounds are keyholing. A lot of Mosin's have been counterbored because of muzzle wear. I'd get a good knowledgeable gunsmith to check it out first.

Campbell
09-15-13, 07:58
Sounds like the barrel is shot out, and the rounds are keyholing. A lot of Mosin's have been counterbored because of muzzle wear. I'd get a good knowledgeable gunsmith to check it out first.

Yes, move it to a collector, and get a shooter.

SurplusShooter
09-15-13, 09:04
Hi, I had this same problem with an M44 so maybe I can help:

the Russian "light ball" ammo would always keyhole. This is the common mil-surplus ammo sold in wooden crates, "LPS", painted silver tips or no paint.~147 grain projectile.

The barrel was not shot-out or corroded. AFAIK, the barrel just was not made to the correct dimensions. If you read alot on the collectors forums you can see this happens occasionally, the barrel is just not made correctly.

Possible solutions are;
- change ammo: In my case the Russian heavy ball (Yellow Tip) Worked. This is older ammo sold in Tin boxes, and is hard to find nowadays. I bought a bunch of this and used it in my M44, fixed the Keyhole problem but causes a sticky-bolt problem.
Or handload to get a projectile that doesn't keyhole (usually a longer bullet).

- change the gun: I sold mine and bought a M38, it shoots fine with all ammo.

its easy enough to just sell your gun on GunBroker then buy yourself something else, i highly recommend you sell it rather than foolin' around trying to make it shoot straight.

I recommend the Molot M38's that came-in last year. I have one an it is much nicer than the M44 I had. Unless you need the silly side-fold bayonet ;) Stay away from the Chinese T53's, they are junk.

Airhasz
09-15-13, 10:09
I'm sure the seller knew it had problems. Do the many comments to sell the gun mean saying nothing about the problem and screw the next guy and keep passing the buck? Sounds like shitty business from here..:rolleyes:

SurplusShooter
09-15-13, 10:30
When I sold my M44 I did say in the description they needed heavy-ball ammo or handloaded ammo to make it work.
It is a somewhat common issue on M44's. On the collectors forum's many people are aware it is inherent to the type, apparently general public does not.

wingspar
09-15-13, 11:42
Well, the barrel may be shot, but it’s only the last couple of inches near the muzzle, which it seems may be enough to render the barrel shot. I will wait till the LGS gets the 150 grain stuff in and trade some of my 182 grain stuff for it and give it another shot. If still no joy, I’ll probably sell it.

Would a collector be interested in a shot out Romanian M44? Are the Mosins really collector rifles with so many of them out there, even tho mine is a rare Romanian model?

wingspar
09-15-13, 11:49
Hi, I had this same problem with an M44 so maybe I can help:

the Russian "light ball" ammo would always keyhole. This is the common mil-surplus ammo sold in wooden crates, "LPS", painted silver tips or no paint.~147 grain projectile.

The barrel was not shot-out or corroded. AFAIK, the barrel just was not made to the correct dimensions. If you read alot on the collectors forums you can see this happens occasionally, the barrel is just not made correctly.

Possible solutions are;
- change ammo: In my case the Russian heavy ball (Yellow Tip) Worked. This is older ammo sold in Tin boxes, and is hard to find nowadays. I bought a bunch of this and used it in my M44, fixed the Keyhole problem but causes a sticky-bolt problem.
Or handload to get a projectile that doesn't keyhole (usually a longer bullet).

- change the gun: I sold mine and bought a M38, it shoots fine with all ammo.

its easy enough to just sell your gun on GunBroker then buy yourself something else, i highly recommend you sell it rather than foolin' around trying to make it shoot straight.

I recommend the Molot M38's that came-in last year. I have one an it is much nicer than the M44 I had. Unless you need the silly side-fold bayonet ;) Stay away from the Chinese T53's, they are junk.

I’m hoping the guys at the LGS are on the right track with lighter bullets. They are supposed to call me when the 150 grain stuff is in. If that doesn’t work, I’ll consider selling it. I’m not a collector and if the gun isn’t worth shooting, I don’t want it.

I don’t need that bayonet. I have one for my AK, and it’s never been out of the box except for photographs when I bought the gun.

It was just by chance that I was considering an M44 and the LGS had one sitting right there. Not sure I would have bought one other wise. If I sell this one, I’m not sure I’ll buy another one, but I can give some thought to a M38. Thanks for the feedback. I hope the LGS is on the right track with the bullet weight.

SurplusShooter
09-15-13, 11:53
Well, the barrel may be shot, but it’s only the last couple of inches near the muzzle,

FYI, just because you see no rifling in the muzzle doesn't mean it is "shot out" it could just be counter-bored. This was a common step done by the Russians and others when they refurbished the Mosin rifles.

[QUOTE=wingspar;1747619
Would a collector be interested in a shot out Romanian M44? Are the Mosins really collector rifles with so many of them out there, even tho mine is a rare Romanian model?[/QUOTE]
Yes, people will collect _anything_, its just a matter of "price vs condition".
Someone who handloads their own ammo can slightly oversized cast-bullet loads or otherwise find a combination that makes this rifle shoot okay. It sounds like you do not handload for this rifle, which is why you are having trouble with this rifle because you are limited to factory loads.

wingspar
09-15-13, 11:54
I'm sure the seller knew it had problems. Do the many comments to sell the gun mean saying nothing about the problem and screw the next guy and keep passing the buck? Sounds like shitty business from here..:rolleyes:

I couldn’t sell it with a clear conscience without mentioning the problems. I’ll probably be lucky to get my $125 back out of it, and if I do, it’s only because it is a rare Romanian model.

I don’t know if the gun was on consignment or a trade in, but I doubt the LGS knew about the problem, but I’m sure the previous owner did. Maybe the LGS would take it back on a trade in for a new .308.

wingspar
09-15-13, 12:02
FYI, just because you see no rifling in the muzzle doesn't mean it is "shot out" it could just be counter-bored. This was a common step done by the Russians and others when they refurbished the Mosin rifles.

Yes, I am unfamiliar with the Mosins. Getting something that is close to a 30-06 ballistically for $125 just seemed too good to pass up. I wouldn’t know what a counter bore is or what it looks like. Would there be a stamp somewhere on the gun that signifies a counter bore?


Yes, people will collect _anything_, its just a matter of "price vs condition".

Someone who handloads their own ammo can slightly oversized cast-bullet loads or otherwise find a combination that makes this rifle shoot okay. It sounds like you do not handload for this rifle, which is why you are having trouble with this rifle because you are limited to factory loads.

Well, condition is a little rough with the stock, but the bluing looks good, normal wear marks near the bayonet and the action is good, tho the straight bolt is a little awkward to use. I can certainly post some photos if anyone is interested.

I don’t hand load. It’s one of those things I never had any interest in.

wingspar
09-15-13, 12:15
I recommend the Molot M38's that came-in last year. I have one an it is much nicer than the M44 I had. Unless you need the silly side-fold bayonet ;) Stay away from the Chinese T53's, they are junk.

Just watched your video on the M38. Looks just like the M44 except without the bayonet. For some reason, I have never noticed how far forward the rear sight is mounted till I watched your video. Certainly knocks those plates around.

SurplusShooter
09-15-13, 17:23
I don't presume to know what's best for your situation, but If you can handle the extra length, a basic 91/30 Mosin rifle may suit you; and a m91/30 rifle is a safer bet: you should have plenty to choose from for good bore condition.

Military surplus ammo is cheap, as cheap as 20-cents per round. But it's almost always Corrosive and Steel-Core.

maybe the store will let you trade back for a m91/30? If it was me, I would insist it should be an even trade for a good 91/30, no money out of pocket.

Right now, m91/30's can be bought for around $130.

wingspar
09-15-13, 19:57
I don’t really care for the 91/30 and if the LGS didn’t just happen have an M44 just sitting there, I may never have bought a Mosin. I am sill trying to decide if I want to deal with corrosive ammo. In the meantime, I ordered 100 rounds of the Prvi Partizan 182 grain ammo, and the LGS is going to trade some 150 grain stuff for my 182 grain stuff, and I’ll try the 150 grain ammo before I make any decisions on what to do with it.

Since I last posted, I joined a dedicated Mosin forum and got a lot of good info and was able to take and post a decent photo of the muzzle over there. It does appear that there is pitting and rust, at least in the last couple of inches of the barrel. Counterboring may save it and may not. Here is the sad photo.

http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/152359259/original.jpg

The LGS has a 91/30 in box absolutely smothered in cosmoline, but I don’t know what they are asking for it, or if they would do a trade. That could be an option. Since I have a rare Romanian model, counterboring might be the best option. I’ll email the gunsmith I’ve been using lately with the photo and see what the cost would be.

SurplusShooter
09-15-13, 21:06
Oh yeah, from what I can see in that muzzle picture your bore is definitely bad, got corroded, and it's not just "made to loose dimensions". I can see in one side the rifling land doesn't even extend to the muzzle. :(

Let us know how the counter-boring goes.
You can get m91/30's anywhere, but a Romanian m44 is neat if you can get it sorted-out :thumbup:

bluejackets92fs
09-15-13, 21:18
Yeah...... grain weight doesn't cause a bullet to key hole at 25 yards.....

Like others said, barrel=toast

kiwi57
09-15-13, 21:31
Here's an informative website you may have already found:

http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20mosin%20nagants/Romo-Mosin-Nagants.asp

Might help with interpreting the markings. Your front sight looks like a typical MN. Not sure if the comments on the website about front sights (and triggers) applies to both Romanian 91/30s and M44s.

If it is a candidate for counter-boring and you do decide to have it done, please let us know how it turns out.

Slater
09-16-13, 06:53
I'm not sure that counterboring would salvage a shot-out barrel. Often I've seen counterbored barrels that have good-to-VG rifling. Opinion is that overly vigorous use of the cleaning rod (without the bore guide) ruined the rifling at the muzzle end, and counterboring restored accuracy in those cases.

wingspar
09-17-13, 19:26
Just to bring this thread up to date. I took a print of the photo of the muzzle into the LGS today, and he got on the phone to the gunsmith who just happened to be in town, so I went home, got the gun and let him look at it. The barrel is shot. He said it could be lined, but counterboring probably would not help. I learned even more about Mosins today. So, since this gun is a rare Romanian M44, this gun will get sold to a collector as is. Apparently there are collectors for these out there that collect them for what they are, not for shooters. I’ll have to be out front with the problems, but I don’t have a problem with that. I’d have a problem selling a gun to someone without mentioning the problems. Many would just pass it on. Not me.

The LGS has a 91/30 severely covered in cosmoline that I looked at and took the advantage of having the gunsmith there to look at it too. However, there is too much cosmoline in the barrel to see anything. I’m considering it. They are asking $165. It’s in a cardboard box with bar code tags attached to it, bayonet, oil cans, sling and the rest of the stuff that normally comes with Mosins. All the numbers match.

JusticeM4
09-17-13, 19:35
Just to bring this thread up to date. I took a print of the photo of the muzzle into the LGS today, and he got on the phone to the gunsmith who just happened to be in town, so I went home, got the gun and let him look at it. The barrel is shot. He said it could be lined, but counterboring probably would not help. I learned even more about Mosins today. So, since this gun is a rare Romanian M44, this gun will get sold to a collector as is. Apparently there are collectors for these out there that collect them for what they are, not for shooters. I’ll have to be out front with the problems, but I don’t have a problem with that. I’d have a problem selling a gun to someone without mentioning the problems. Many would just pass it on. Not me.

The LGS has a 91/30 severely covered in cosmoline that I looked at and took the advantage of having the gunsmith there to look at it too. However, there is too much cosmoline in the barrel to see anything. I’m considering it. They are asking $165. It’s in a cardboard box with bar code tags attached to it, bayonet, oil cans, sling and the rest of the stuff that normally comes with Mosins. All the numbers match.

Sorry to hear. It definitely looks like that barrel is done. Sell it for what you bought it for and buy another Mosin.

Although M44's are selling for $230 and up right now. I would also highly suggest a Hex 91/30 from Budsgunshop $169 shipped.

Slater
09-17-13, 20:29
More often than not, M91/30's have decent-to-VG bores.

wingspar
09-18-13, 10:22
Sorry to hear. It definitely looks like that barrel is done. Sell it for what you bought it for and buy another Mosin.

Although M44's are selling for $230 and up right now. I would also highly suggest a Hex 91/30 from Budsgunshop $169 shipped.

Yes, the barrel is done. The fact that it is a rare Romanian M44 means I should get more for it than what I paid for it. How much more, I don’t know.

I know the hex models are very much desired, I would still have to pay a $30 transfer fee if I bought from Buds vs the one at the LGS. I saw a 91/30 some place else last night for $140, but by the time I paid shipping and transfer fee, it comes out to more than the one at the LGS, and from what I’ve learned thru this experience is that I want to visibly inspect the next Mosin I buy, and I’ve already seen this one. Next time I get to the LGS, I’ll take a rod and some patches so I can look at the muzzle a little closer.

JusticeM4
09-18-13, 19:22
I definitely get your point. After $30 transfer fee + $5 Background check, that $169 Hex 91/30 is right about $200. Still a decent price for a Hex receiver although you can't inspect the bore before buying.

Which is why I'm also considering buying one of the regular 91/30's at Gander for $179. With tax/fee that's under $200, and I can inspect the bore and also handpick the rifle I want from the selection they have. Last time I checked GM 2 weeks ago they had a dozen 91/30's on the rack, and they are not really flying off the shelves anyway. Plenty of 54R ammo at GM too, although a bit pricey at $11/20rds.

When you look at your next Mosin, bring a bright flashlight with you. Remove the entire bolt, then look through the bore with the flashlight. You should be able to see the bore and if the rifling is good with no rust/pitting, you are good to go. Good luck with the search.

wingspar
09-22-13, 01:15
I picked up the 91/30 yesterday. Got the cosmoline off all the metal parts and started on the stock, but I’ll have to finish that up tomorrow. I should have it all back together tomorrow, and out to the range soon. Might start a thread on it. Might not.

http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/152450493/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/152473559/original.jpg

SurplusShooter
09-23-13, 12:44
Incase you didn't already know, use heat to leech the Cosmoline out of the stock.
Needs to be hot enough to melt the cosmoline and draw it out of the wood, but not so hot to Scorch the wood.

wingspar
09-23-13, 13:07
I have since learned that these guns were packed in grease, not cosmoline. I used a hair dryer on the stock. Took a couple of hours, and it’s not perfect, it is a big improvement. It’s all back together now. Just waiting for a break in the weather to get it out to the range.

Here’s what it looks like now. Stock is kind of ugly, but all the numbers match.

http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/152499839/original.jpg

Ron3
09-23-13, 16:36
Sounds like your barrel is toast.

I had a Nagant M44 that would tumble bullets. I cleaned it with gasoline and kerosene. Douched it, scrubbed it a lot with copper bristles, let it soak for 12 hours at a time, repeated and repeated for days and days.

STILL would not get a clean patch out of it!

However when I took it out to shoot it would give me AK-like groups at 100 yds with old surplus ammo. (5 inch 5 shot groups) I'm sure that was the best the barrel, sights, my eyes, and the ammo could possibly ever do!

Was it worth the effort? It would have been for a $100 rifle but then it started having feeding issues and I got rid of it.

wingspar
10-09-13, 00:44
The M44 barrel is toast. No ifs ands or buts about it. I soaked it in copper solvent overnight, and ran close to 200 patches thru it and a bore brush attached to a drill with no joy. Never saw anything resembling a clean patch. Since it is a rare Romanian model, I should have no problem selling it for more than I paid for it, shot out barrel and all.

The 91/30 shoots just fine. I was pleased with it at 50 yards.

I have an M38 that will ship tomorrow, and I should have it by the end of the week or early next week. It is supposed to be in excellent condition.