View Full Version : NYPD - 3 shots - 2 bystanders hit
http://abcnews.go.com/US/women-accidentally-shot-cops-york-citys-times-square/story?id=20261689
When officers approached the suspect, he appeared to reach into his pocket to draw a gun. Two officers then fired a total of three shots, ABC station WABC-TV in New York reported. While they missed the man, they accidentally hit two women instead.
You know....NYPD got a 66% hit ratio. That is problably some sort of a record for them. Not the right person.... But hey...baby steps...:rolleyes:
ForTehNguyen
09-15-13, 22:45
and they think its CHLs that will have innocent casualties
Whiskey_Bravo
09-15-13, 23:31
That place amazes me
This.
and they think its CHLs that will have innocent casualtiesThey may be actually afraid of legal CHL'ers shooting them because they're an actual threat of harm, according to this!
If NYC weren't run by pathetic 3rd world despots, you'd think eventually they'd get sane enough to realize that killing off the gun culture in that area means that too many people they're hiring didn't have prior gun handling/owning background which is perhaps the stupidest thing they could do.
Alaskapopo
09-16-13, 00:18
Lets see we have crowded city environments, officers with around 8 hours of firearms training per year and 12 pound pulls on their Glocks and you don't expect this to happen sometimes?
Doesn't NY specifically order some insanely heavy trigger on purpose for their duty weapons? I recall reading about it somewhere but I can't cite a source.
Alaskapopo
09-16-13, 00:33
Doesn't NY specifically order some insanely heavy trigger on purpose for their duty weapons? I recall reading about it somewhere but I can't cite a source.
Yep New your + connectors comes out to be a hard and heavy 12 pound pull.
Pat
vicious_cb
09-16-13, 00:38
They should stick to what they're good at. Random street stop and searches.
Yep New your + connectors comes out to be a hard and heavy 12 pound pull.
Pat
Obviously they need a heavier connector so that this tragedy never happens again! :cool:
Do I hear 20 lbs? :p
Lets see we have crowded city environments, officers with around 8 hours of firearms training per year and 12 pound pulls on their Glocks and you don't expect this to happen sometimes?
I think the lack of firearms training and standards is key. The fact that most grew up without a firearms background probably makes a huge difference as well.
I'm gonna dismiss crowded city and Glock trigger pulls.
I remember when Miami, which was pretty crowded, had the cocaine gang wars in the early 80s. This was basically cops vs. assholes with Mac 10s in a crowed public place. Amazingly the cops managed to shoot bad guys more than bystanders (the FBI shootout notwithstanding).
And I remember when revolvers and DA autos were the order of the day. They seemed to do just fine with them. In fact if they took their Glocks away they'd probably learn how to shoot.
The problem is LEOs with zero firearms experience, inadequate training and low qualification requirements. I also suspect there are some ridiculous shooting policies which prevent NY cops from having "real world" shooting experience out of fear of the investigation to follow.
Lets see we have crowded city environments, officers with around 8 hours of firearms training per year and 12 pound pulls on their Glocks and you don't expect this to happen sometimes?
Question is, why don't NYC pols and administrators expect this and f'ing DO SOMETHING about it? It's a blatant disregard for public safety. :mad:
Alaskapopo
09-16-13, 01:11
I think the lack of firearms training and standards is key. The fact that most grew up without a firearms background probably makes a huge difference as well.
I'm gonna dismiss crowded city and Glock trigger pulls.
I remember when Miami, which was pretty crowded, had the cocaine gang wars in the early 80s. This was basically cops vs. assholes with Mac 10s in a crowed public place. Amazingly the cops managed to shoot bad guys more than bystanders (the FBI shootout notwithstanding).
And I remember when revolvers and DA autos were the order of the day. They seemed to do just fine with them. In fact if they took their Glocks away they'd probably learn how to shoot.
The problem is LEOs with zero firearms experience, inadequate training and low qualification requirements. I also suspect there are some ridiculous shooting policies which prevent NY cops from having "real world" shooting experience out of fear of the investigation to follow.
I agree with you on the training. Training is the biggest factor in hitting what your aiming at and making the correct choice to shoot. But I suspect if a lot more police shootings in smaller locals happened around bystanders their would be more hit. Its just a matter of density. If you miss in a small town with no one in the line of fire no big deal in the city however your much more likely to hit someone you did not intend. Either way its best to hit what your aiming at.
Pat
I agree with you on the training. Training is the biggest factor in hitting what your aiming at and making the correct choice to shoot. But I suspect if a lot more police shootings in smaller locals happened around bystanders their would be more hit. Its just a matter of density. If you miss in a small town with no one in the line of fire no big deal in the city however your much more likely to hit someone you did not intend. Either way its best to hit what your aiming at.
Pat
Of course population density increases likelihood of hitting a bystander. And I'm not here to give small town cops who can't shoot a pass. But given population densities, the training standards for places like NYC, LA and other major cities should be the highest.
Instead of spending the money on redesigning uniforms, pointless programs and all the other bottom priority projects that those in power regularly flush money on they should make sure everyone who carries a gun is trained well enough to not be an undue risk to the population they serve.
Maybe if this got the same priority as saving people from Big Gulps this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Imagine if that money was spent on regular range time for officers.
Alaskapopo
09-16-13, 01:38
Of course population density increases likelihood of hitting a bystander. And I'm not here to give small town cops who can't shoot a pass. But given population densities, the training standards for places like NYC, LA and other major cities should be the highest.
Instead of spending the money on redesigning uniforms, pointless programs and all the other bottom priority projects that those in power regularly flush money on they should make sure everyone who carries a gun is trained well enough to not be an undue risk to the population they serve.
Maybe if this got the same priority as saving people from Big Gulps this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Imagine if that money was spent on regular range time for officers.
Won't get an argument from me on that one. I just got through running my officers through a 10 hour firearm arms training I put together and ended up donating about 300 rounds or my own ammo so they could all complete it. I managed to do some scheduling magic so their was no over time as well. With current budgets its hard as hell to get overtime for training and money for supplies like ammo is tough as well.
Pat
maybe they should limit each officer to one bullet :)
that should solve the problem of to many bystanders being shot
after all you only need ONE shot :)
Won't get an argument from me on that one. I just got through running my officers through a 10 hour firearm arms training I put together and ended up donating about 300 rounds or my own ammo so they could all complete it. I managed to do some scheduling magic so their was no over time as well. With current budgets its hard as hell to get overtime for training and money for supplies like ammo is tough as well.
Pat
That combined with a strong firearms tradition in your state should serve your officers well.
I suspect we could take two dozen NYC LEOs and swap them out with two dozen LEOs from places in AK, TN, SC, MT and WY and the transplanted officers would perform much better in the same NYC shootings and the NYC officers in question would still have many of the same problems in any shooting anywhere.
NYC is inherently anti gun, and to an extent that transfers ever to LEOs. There are powers in place that want to satisfy "training requirements" but at the same time don't want to be seen as producing "trained killers" in uniform. As incomprehensible as that sounds, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a LEO reference the problem and it being justification to not "carbine qualify" officers or send them to places like Blackwater for training.
Alaskapopo
09-16-13, 04:54
That combined with a strong firearms tradition in your state should serve your officers well.
I suspect we could take two dozen NYC LEOs and swap them out with two dozen LEOs from places in AK, TN, SC, MT and WY and the transplanted officers would perform much better in the same NYC shootings and the NYC officers in question would still have many of the same problems in any shooting anywhere.
NYC is inherently anti gun, and to an extent that transfers ever to LEOs. There are powers in place that want to satisfy "training requirements" but at the same time don't want to be seen as producing "trained killers" in uniform. As incomprehensible as that sounds, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a LEO reference the problem and it being justification to not "carbine qualify" officers or send them to places like Blackwater for training.
Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.
That combined with a strong firearms tradition in your state should serve your officers well.
I suspect we could take two dozen NYC LEOs and swap them out with two dozen LEOs from places in AK, TN, SC, MT and WY and the transplanted officers would perform much better in the same NYC shootings and the NYC officers in question would still have many of the same problems in any shooting anywhere.
NYC is inherently anti gun, and to an extent that transfers ever to LEOs. There are powers in place that want to satisfy "training requirements" but at the same time don't want to be seen as producing "trained killers" in uniform. As incomprehensible as that sounds, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a LEO reference the problem and it being justification to not "carbine qualify" officers or send them to places like Blackwater for training.
Yea but officers from those environments would probably have panic attacks dealing with a suspect in Time's Square where the population on those three or four city blocks on a Saturday night will exceed the population of the county they are from.
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head as always Steyr, it is a training issue combined with the way guns are looked at in the culture of NYC. I have a family member who is very high up in Murdoch's company (he got a retirement letter from President Bush Sr), it's safe to say that he is very conservative. He is also very anti gun, and so is his wife. It was a shock the first time they saw a photo of me shooting they reacted like all the "crazy libtards" everyone always talks about. The culture of NYC is very, very anti gun. This absolutely transfers over to the police officers, most of whom like you said have never held a gun before being hired.
I know there are a few NYPD officers on this board, we've talked before about various NY issues I wonder if they would be willing to chime in?
Personally I think that officers who are responding to areas like Time Square, Canal St., Union Square etc should be held to the same standards with a gun that Air Marshals are held to. If that requires that we have fewer of them but they are better trained so be it. The NYPD scares me, I don't feel safe when I am around them, especially in the tourist areas of the city.
This is not just a New York thing. Remember back to the LA manhunt last year when they shot the hell out of multiple vehicles and still failed to actually kill who they thought was their target.
Police training, in general, is woefully inadequate....
Eurodriver
09-16-13, 07:40
Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.
Now if I said this you would accuse me of being anti-LEO.
I'm glad you see that not all cops are good cops.
LEOs have let me off with a warning because I was .mil , but I sure as hell didn't demand it. What a bunch of holier-than-thou ass clowns.
Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.
The majority of NYSTs are assholes pure and simple, and they beat this into their collective heads during academy training. You should have seen how things went down during the Bucky Phillips manhunt debacle. Their treatment of not just local LE but also the local civilian population was downright despicable. Purple tie gestapo all the way...
Along the lines of responsibility, training, and doing what is -right and just- ......
Watch this and pay close attention to what is said. ( cyclist might have done something wrong, he was responsible enough though, he did wear a helmet, and the LEO is a great guy )
http://www.whiotv.com/news/news/local/osp-trooper-car-motorcycle-involved-in-serious-cra/nZRpj/
Then watch this.
http://www.whiotv.com/news/news/cruiser-cam-trooper-crash-involving-motorcycle/nZrKk/
Then ask yourself why did the news office have to use the freedom of information act to obtain the second video.
Last I heard there were not even any charges. I realize he has rights and was told not to speak, but no charges? How could any other citizen do that and not have any charges unless maybe they were having a heart attack.
This type treatment erodes public trust which grows thinner by the day. It makes the entire force look bad... in fact, it corrupts little by little the honest people that get involved. People need to realize that we live in a society now where someone is looking, you can't necessarily lie your way out by simply not speaking.
ETA: Not trying to imply that guy is not great officer and person... but what he did for his entire life before he ran into those people makes no difference. It's not relevent. He could be a saint or sinner. All that matters is was the accident his fault.
Eurodriver
09-16-13, 08:49
Last I heard there were not even any charges. I realize he has rights and was told not to speak, but no charges? How could any other citizen do that and not have any charges unless maybe they were having a heart attack..
Actually, this shit happens all the time and I'm not surprised at all.
Motorcyclists die every day due to negligent drivers and it's a bad day if the drivers are given tickets. Its why they don't have a problem breaking a windshield or smacking the mirror off some dumbass cager when they act stupid. The cops will rarely catch a sportbike, they can outrun any car, and the law won't do anything to hold people accountable. I'm actually surprised we haven't heard more stories of bikers murdering cagers and taking off.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/deputies-investigate-fatal-motorcycle-crash-in-oldsmar/1247761
http://www.tampabay.com/news/briefs/clearwater-motorcyclist-killed-in-dunedin-crash/1178768
I work in the city, I am not surprised. I feel like I should seek cover every time I see a cop lol, they appear so inept. Half the time the uniform does not even fit. They look like they may sneeze and ND into their foot.
Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.
He demanded professional courtesy? What a douche move. :(
Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.
That type of attitude is not that uncommon, unfortunately. If they display that type of negativity towards their fellow officers how do you think they treat the serfs?
Its simple. NYPD needs more Tier 1 exmil operators on the street. They could handle the insurgents better.
The majority of NYSTs are assholes pure and simple, and they beat this into their collective heads during academy training. You should have seen how things went down during the Bucky Phillips manhunt debacle. Their treatment of not just local LE but also the local civilian population was downright despicable. Purple tie gestapo all the way...
They're Cuomo's thugs and I don't know a single officer that isn't a Trooper that has a good thing to say about any of them.
I had one advance on my house with his hand on his gun while failing to identify himself at midnight for a child welfare check (last tenant). The response from my friend who's a local deputy: "Well he's looking to get shot."
I know there are some good ones, as in every force, but there is a superiority that is trained into them from the get go. And because of this they will be the ones that enforce the not-so-SAFE ACT.
As a bartender having troopers in our bar was a nightmare. They picked more fights then frat boys, 3outa4 times they would bring in minors and try and muscle staff into letting them drink, and they always brag loudly about being able to drive home at the end of the night and not worry about it.
I work in the city, I am not surprised. I feel like I should seek cover every time I see a cop lol, they appear so inept. Half the time the uniform does not even fit. They look like they may sneeze and ND into their foot.
You and me both. Especially when they have their M4s out.
You can tell when you're in Brooklyn, or in less popular parts of the city that the beat cops are really, really damn good at what they do. But stick me in the financial district, midtown, or time square and the cops walking the beat encourage me to keep up my situational awareness and always look for cover.
RE: professional courtesy.
I love reading about some of the bigger cities' traditions with regards to what off duty cops get away with, often for the comic value. I work in a mid sized city, and we're often skittish about taking a 99 cent discount on $1.00 coffee (even if that's the company policy for police/FF/.mil). I get paid enough to pay what everyone else pays, and if I get pulled over, I'm big enough to know better.
@Irish: I hate to think that you think that I think of the people I serve as serfs, but I've seen what you're talking about, unfortunately.
Back to the subject at hand, anyone remember this gem of a thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=111525
Same issues apply.
-NYPD severely limits firearms training opportunities for line officers
-There are very few places nearby for officers to practice in their off duty time, with duty guns or personally owned (in NYC, HA!) ones.
-Most every place in Manhattan, especially Times Square, would give the range nazis a Rule 4 coronary.
-Some hardware issues, but they are less of an issue as the software ones, especially in a scenario like this.
Something to think about, and its been hinted at here. There is a (lack of) gun culture issue, but not on the part of the cops.
NYPD, like most every other large agency, gets its recruits from everywhere. While they will likely have a strong hometown showing, they will get officers from all over the country, due to reputation, recruiting, etc. They likely get a decent amount of ex-mil recruits as well. So, in a given class, they're just as likely to have recruit officers who have gun backgrounds (possibly impressive ones) as they are to have recruits with a hoplophobic background.
The issue lies with the administration. In a city where only the professional good guys are supposed to have guns, the exposure to firearms excellence is limited, and both the bosses and the public will look to the Police as the de-facto gun experts because the bar is set so low. Pretty much every department has this in some degree or another; its a variation of "Not Invented Here Syndrome".
This in effect leads to the department rank and file not knowing there's a better way, or not being able to get there due to being a small cog in the machine.
As I said in that previous thread, firearms instructors, especially those serving police, security, or military shooters, should take notice.
@Irish: I hate to think that you think that I think of the people I serve as serfs, but I've seen what you're talking about, unfortunately.
Not you man! And not any of the good dudes, no way. I was just referencing assholes who wear badges who get away with having an asshole attitude and treating people like shit, because they can.
Obviously they need a heavier connector so that this tragedy never happens again! :cool:
Do I hear 20 lbs? :p
That will only be helpful if the connector is so heavy that they can't pull the trigger at all.
Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.
Wouldn't be the first time NYC screwed over a cop who was trying to apply the law to all in a fair way.
Frank Serpico comes to mind. I'm sure things have improved since then, but I don't think they are all the way there.
The problem of course is when the local government feels they are above the law and don't have to answer tot he public, those who enforce the law on their behalf tend to adopt the same attitudes.
Actually, this shit happens all the time and I'm not surprised at all.
Motorcyclists die every day due to negligent drivers and it's a bad day if the drivers are given tickets. Its why they don't have a problem breaking a windshield or smacking the mirror off some dumbass cager when they act stupid. The cops will rarely catch a sportbike, they can outrun any car, and the law won't do anything to hold people accountable. I'm actually surprised we haven't heard more stories of bikers murdering cagers and taking off.
I've seen bikers do really stupid shit on the road from the perspective of a "cager." I'm sure "cagers" do pretty stupid things from the perspectiev of a biker, but vehicles of the 4+ wheeled variety are far more common than of the 2 wheeled variety, so most drivers worry about what they're used to, a vehicle directly infront or behind them unless they're centered in a different lane.
You and me both. Especially when they have their M4s out.
You can tell when you're in Brooklyn, or in less popular parts of the city that the beat cops are really, really damn good at what they do. But stick me in the financial district, midtown, or time square and the cops walking the beat encourage me to keep up my situational awareness and always look for cover.
Agreed!
I snapped this pic from my bus traveling West on 42nd Street about a block west of Time Square on 7-30. Hard to tell from the crappy iphone pic but you can see the collapsible stock on the guy's M4 and a 30 round mag. Funny, civilians can't own them, but we already knew the double standard. Not sure what the occasion was but the place was crawling with these guys. My first thought was "Oh great, someone cuts a loud fart or a car back fires and we will have a recreation of the Empire State Building debacle lol.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u521/WS6TransAm01/Boom%20Sticks/NYPD-M4_zps0e1e25ae.jpg
Oh you mean the incident where one of the officers covered their face and fired blindly while backing into cover...
Yea, we don't any more of those...
mikelowrey
09-16-13, 19:05
Most of you guys have been on point in regards to the subject, if you have any questions, shoot.
Most of you guys have been on point in regards to the subject, if you have any questions, shoot.
I think you and I chatted about "gravity knives" once...
So if you are NYPD what are your thoughts on the troopers/// ;) J/K I don't expect you to answer that.
You're offering to answer questions, so I have several:
How often do officers have to qualify?
How many rounds go down range with an average officer before he is handed his duty gun and told to go serve and protect?
What's with putting the worst possible shooters on the force in Midtown and Time Square? I'm sure it's a pretty shit detail, but like I said earlier I would prefer 1/3 of the officers in that area of the city that were higher paid and better trained....
So does your entire extended family carry tin and flash it every chance they get?
What's with those goofy low slung holsters with the pistol lanyards on the National Guard soldiers in Grand Central Station?
Why are there still military forces deployed in Grand Central?
How many ranges does NYPD have within the city to use for training purposes? Do you think if there was an increase in ranges that there would be an increase in training?
Are NYPD officers allowed to take their duty rifles home or do the AR-15s and MP5s stay locked down in an armory?
You don't have to answer any of these, but you asked.
mikelowrey
09-16-13, 21:25
I think you and I chatted about "gravity knives" once...
So if you are NYPD what are your thoughts on the troopers/// ;) J/K I don't expect you to answer that.
There is some nice ones and some others that think they are the last coca cola, overall I had several good encounters and probably 2 bad ones.
You're offering to answer questions, so I have several:
How often do officers have to qualify? 2 times a year. The Dept offers the last wednesday of each month limited free ammo for you to go on your own but most of people dont do it (it is being encouraged lately)
How many rounds go down range with an average officer before he is handed his duty gun and told to go serve and protect? In the academy (if I remember correctly) I went through 2 and half weeks of weapons training with at least 250 rounds per day ( Don't know if that have changed)
What's with putting the worst possible shooters on the force in Midtown and Time Square? I'm sure it's a pretty shit detail, but like I said earlier I would prefer 1/3 of the officers in that area of the city that were higher paid and better trained.... Most of the officer working in times square we called them "Tourist Cops" because all they do is give directions :D but jokes aside, most of people that work there "knows" somebody and/or lives close. Also not all of them are new, there's plenty of them with alot of time OTJ
So does your entire extended family carry tin and flash it every chance they get? If you mean the badge, some people carry it some others don't. If you mean gun, dept rules says you must be ready at all times except for a few exceptions.
What's with those goofy low slung holsters with the pistol lanyards on the National Guard soldiers in Grand Central Station? No idea...
Why are there still military forces deployed in Grand Central? Grand Central is one of the biggest hub in the city in terms on how many people transit every day. I believe it is actually managed by PAPD but again, the military forces, no much info on that.
How many ranges does NYPD have within the city to use for training purposes? Do you think if there was an increase in ranges that there would be an increase in training? Dept has plenty of ranges around the city per say, meaning some precinct's have ranges, BUT not all of them are working due to several reasons, but in terms of availability on ranges, there are on each borough and officers are encouraged to go
Are NYPD officers allowed to take their duty rifles home or do the AR-15s and MP5s stay locked down in an armory? Locked down.
You don't have to answer any of these, but you asked.
See above
SeriousStudent
09-16-13, 21:38
My thoughts and prayers are with the two wounded women, that they make a full and complete recovery.
I have a dream. A dream that one day, Baron von Bloomberg forms a group called Mayors For Legal Guns. That he would stop pumping money into laws in Colorado, but would pour his own money into training time and ammo for officers. That he would correlate the hit percentage on SOP-9 reports with the decrease in firearms training. That he would take the dedicated and loyal NYPD firearms trainers, and allow them to do the job they wish for - to train their brother and sister officers to their utmost ability.
And I mean no disrespect at all to the memory of Doctor King. I greatly admire and respect his words.
See above
Mike,
Thanks for your honest responses. I was throwing a few good hearted NY jabs in there, but I figured you could take it... ;)
In regards to the "carrying tin" question, I was talking about those little wallet badges that so many sons/daughters/extended family/friends of NY officers seem to have in their wallets and love to flash every time they get pulled over, get carded, or get into trouble. In the "6th Borough" this is really common and called "carrying tin" by a lot of the people I know...
I think the attitude the AlaskaPoPo saw is directly tied to this practice and attitude. I've only ever gotten senior officers to admit the practice exists but I've seen scores of young college kids flashing their daddy's tin to try and bypass the security at my bar, DUI checks, police responses to fist fights etc.
And as far as the .mil in Grand Central I had to ask, it makes me curious.
mikelowrey
09-16-13, 23:44
Mike,
Thanks for your honest responses. I was throwing a few good hearted NY jabs in there, but I figured you could take it... ;)
In regards to the "carrying tin" question, I was talking about those little wallet badges that so many sons/daughters/extended family/friends of NY officers seem to have in their wallets and love to flash every time they get pulled over, get carded, or get into trouble. In the "6th Borough" this is really common and called "carrying tin" by a lot of the people I know...
I think the attitude the AlaskaPoPo saw is directly tied to this practice and attitude. I've only ever gotten senior officers to admit the practice exists but I've seen scores of young college kids flashing their daddy's tin to try and bypass the security at my bar, DUI checks, police responses to fist fights etc.
And as far as the .mil in Grand Central I had to ask, it makes me curious.
Sure no pro :)
In regards to the wallet badges, yes, I get to see a lot of them and usually they have a # which I always call and make sure the officer knows the person. Me personally, when I give it to family members I educate them to provide it after they provide the necessary paperwork to the officer, usually I get the phone call and my first thing I ask the officer is if my family has been respectful and educated, and if yes, I will go by politely telling him to "Please extend the courtesy", If my family member has been disrespectful and acting cocky etc.. I would tell the officer to issue a ticket and remove the PBA card and shield. And for last, for serious matters, the tin would not work with me.
I am actually curious about the MIL too... I dont understand why they have them there, We have enough of our own and PAPD + MTA Police, but I guess it's politics :)
mikelowrey,
Thanks for chiming in! Stay safe out there brother.
Me personally, when I give it to family members I educate them to provide it after they provide the necessary paperwork to the officer, usually I get the phone call and my first thing I ask the officer is if my family has been respectful and educated, and if yes, I will go by politely telling him to "Please extend the courtesy"
Seriously?
Mike,
Thank you for the honest response! I appreciate it. If you find out about the .mil in Grand Central let me know.
Irish,
It is very much a part of the culture out here, and has been for decades.
Eurodriver
09-17-13, 08:14
Sure no pro :)
In regards to the wallet badges, yes, I get to see a lot of them and usually they have a # which I always call and make sure the officer knows the person. Me personally, when I give it to family members I educate them to provide it after they provide the necessary paperwork to the officer, usually I get the phone call and my first thing I ask the officer is if my family has been respectful and educated, and if yes, I will go by politely telling him to "Please extend the courtesy", If my family member has been disrespectful and acting cocky etc.. I would tell the officer to issue a ticket and remove the PBA card and shield. And for last, for serious matters, the tin would not work with me.
I'm sorry, but I laughed hard when I read this.
Then again, I'm the kind of guy who gets irritated when I see dependents asking for military discounts and LEOs asking for free food from Chic Fil A.
If you get taken care of, comped, "let go with a warning", etc that's one thing. But when you ask for it that's just ridiculous.
Irish,
It is very much a part of the culture out here, and has been for decades.
Well, to be honest, it's bullshit. Just another reason for the taxpayer not to like the police due to a double standard that's imposed for their families. You're not even talking about Johnny Law going a little too fast and getting out of it due to "professional courtesy". Why should some cop's kid or wife be given a pass and the lowly asshole taxpayer have to pay a fine for the same offense? It's corrupt, it's indefensible and anyone enforcing the law on one of the serfs who doesn't impose the same law on a cop's family due to "professional courtesy" is a hypocritical piece of shit.
It seems to be a common occurrence in NYC.
Well, to be honest, it's bullshit. Just another reason for the taxpayer not to like the police due to a double standard that's imposed for their families. You're not even talking about Johnny Law going a little too fast and getting out of it due to "professional courtesy". Why should some cop's kid or wife be given a pass and the lowly asshole taxpayer have to pay a fine for the same offense? It's corrupt, it's indefensible and anyone enforcing the law on one of the serfs who doesn't impose the same law on a cop's family due to "professional courtesy" is a hypocritical piece of shit. The sleeping people in this country allow it.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-17-13, 10:33
Sure no pro :)
In regards to the wallet badges, yes, I get to see a lot of them and usually they have a # which I always call and make sure the officer knows the person. Me personally, when I give it to family members I educate them to provide it after they provide the necessary paperwork to the officer, usually I get the phone call and my first thing I ask the officer is if my family has been respectful and educated, and if yes, I will go by politely telling him to "Please extend the courtesy", If my family member has been disrespectful and acting cocky etc.. I would tell the officer to issue a ticket and remove the PBA card and shield. And for last, for serious matters, the tin would not work with me.
:eek:
Out of respect for the greatness that is general discussion I will not post my actual thoughts on this matter. It has opened my eyes to a world I didn't know existed as I had never heard of badges like this being given to family/friends as a "get out of jail free card".
Alaskapopo
09-17-13, 12:14
Well, to be honest, it's bullshit. Just another reason for the taxpayer not to like the police due to a double standard that's imposed for their families. You're not even talking about Johnny Law going a little too fast and getting out of it due to "professional courtesy". Why should some cop's kid or wife be given a pass and the lowly asshole taxpayer have to pay a fine for the same offense? It's corrupt, it's indefensible and anyone enforcing the law on one of the serfs who doesn't impose the same law on a cop's family due to "professional courtesy" is a hypocritical piece of shit.
We agree. I believe professional courtesy is the cause of much of the distrust of police we have nation wide. I will note you see it most often in places where officers are paid the least. In these areas raise the qualifications standards for hiring raise the pay to attract good applicants and then hold them to a high integrity standard. Make the job worth too much to risk on taking a bribe. Which is essentially what free stuff is but its called professional courtesy.
Pat
mikelowrey
09-17-13, 12:27
Guys,
Its just a courtesy that it is politely asked, Let me correct myself as I typed that I "tell" them to give them the courtesy. Depending on the situation, We ask them if its possible to extend the courtesy and if they can fine but if the can't fine with me either. I would definitely appreciate the officer who extends the courtesy to my wife or kid dearly. In regards to the "jail free card" it is not. If you committed an act that eventually will lead to an arrest. Sorry buddy, it won't help you.
It is on the officer's discretion to give the courtesy, if they don't want to give it, then they don't and there is nothing else to do. And this is nothing new, is been there for decades...
Guys,
Its just a courtesy that it is politely asked, Let me correct myself as I typed that I "tell" them to give them the courtesy. Depending on the situation, We ask them if its possible to extend the courtesy and if they can fine but if the can't fine with me either. I would definitely appreciate the officer who extends the courtesy to my wife or kid dearly. In regards to the "jail free card" it is not. If you committed an act that eventually will lead to an arrest. Sorry buddy, it won't help you.
It is on the officer's discretion to give the courtesy, if they don't want to give it, then they don't and there is nothing else to do. And this is nothing new, is been there for decades...
The problem is that it undermines the credibility of the department and of all LEOs in general. It's favoritism when laws should be applied equally to everyone. Hell, LEOs should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. The idea and practice of "professional courtesy" is the exact opposite of that.
It's frankly dishonorable and it breaks the public's trust. This isn't meant as a personal attack on you, but as a commentary in general on the practice.
Its just a courtesy that it is politely asked, Let me correct myself as I typed that I "tell" them to give them the courtesy. Depending on the situation, We ask them if its possible to extend the courtesy and if they can fine but if the can't fine with me either. I would definitely appreciate the officer who extends the courtesy to my wife or kid dearly.
It is on the officer's discretion to give the courtesy, if they don't want to give it, then they don't and there is nothing else to do. And this is nothing new, is been there for decades...
In my opinion this is a definite problem. It extends to the police covering for other crimes including assault, DUI, etc. for other officers. It is one of the primary reasons people have an issue with the police.
I'm not directing this at you personally, I just think it's a big problem. Having a marriage to a woman or donating your sperm to them doesn't give them the right to get out of tickets due to your job.
It is one of the primary reasons people have an issue with the police..
Really? The only people that seem to have a problem with me are the ones that get to ride in the back of my patrol car....
If Police Officers do stupid things in their off time (or on the job for that matter) they should be dealt with appropriately. My agency chooses to let the S.O. take over and do the deed (to cover the conflict of interest).
Matter of fact we just had an officer blow a stop sign and hit someone, he got a ticket. He admitted he just didn't see it and was at fault.
I know, its a shocker since apparently everyone here lives in corrupt gestapoville were the police rape the women and children on a daily basis.
Really? The only people that seem to have a problem with me are the ones that get to ride in the back of my patrol car...
I know, its a shocker since apparently everyone here lives in corrupt gestapoville were the police rape the women and children on a daily basis.
You have definite, serious issues and are out of touch with reality. You go off the deep end on a consistent basis and carry things to the extreme. From what I gather from your posts it's rather frightening that you do have a badge.
And for what it's worth there are police who are raping women and children on at least a weekly basis. Simple peruse www.policemisconduct.net for examples.
In my opinion this is a definite problem. It extends to the police covering for other crimes including assault, DUI, etc. for other officers. It is one of the primary reasons people have an issue with the police.
I'm not directing this at you personally, I just think it's a big problem. Having a marriage to a woman or donating your sperm to them doesn't give them the right to get out of tickets due to your job.
Like any job sometimes friends and family get perks. Although I'm sure there are some real idiots out there using an leo relationship for their benefit there are more non leo family and friends getting breaks everyday than cops kids and wives.
In reality showing a respect of the law and being polite to an officer will get you out of a ticket more times than not.
I have a funny feeling that the ambivalence I'm seeing here is a common character trait of those who feel that police lord over them in some way.
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The problem is that it undermines the credibility of the department and of all LEOs in general. It's favoritism when laws should be applied equally to everyone. Hell, LEOs should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. The idea and practice of "professional courtesy" is the exact opposite of that.
It's frankly dishonorable and it breaks the public's trust. This isn't meant as a personal attack on you, but as a commentary in general on the practice.
Amen.... I swear I think there is a segment of law enforcement that simply doesn't acknowledge honor and ethics as being a 24/7 part of their lives.... that is if they even understand the importance of the concepts.
Alaskapopo
09-17-13, 14:00
Guys,
Its just a courtesy that it is politely asked, Let me correct myself as I typed that I "tell" them to give them the courtesy. Depending on the situation, We ask them if its possible to extend the courtesy and if they can fine but if the can't fine with me either. I would definitely appreciate the officer who extends the courtesy to my wife or kid dearly. In regards to the "jail free card" it is not. If you committed an act that eventually will lead to an arrest. Sorry buddy, it won't help you.
It is on the officer's discretion to give the courtesy, if they don't want to give it, then they don't and there is nothing else to do. And this is nothing new, is been there for decades...
With respect because I know it is the culture in some areas but this is wrong. We should be held to a higher standard as leo's we should not be asking for breaks. Now if the officer was inclined to give a warning on his own that is fine but it should not be asked for. As for free coffee, meals etc that is simply bribery. Those business owners expect something from you if they are ever in a jam. I don't want anyone to have that kind of leverage over me. Up here is forbidden and an officer will be disciplined and fired depending on the severity if he accepts gratuities. I feel that by accepting free stuff your putting your integrity up for sale. I received a speeding ticket from the Anchorage Police Department about 4 years ago. I earned it and not once did I badge the officer or ask for a break. I did tell him I was armed per the legal requirement we have in Alaska. I earned the ticket (14 over) I knew better and should have been paying attention to my speed. The public hates double standards and its hurting our credibility at a time when we can't afford that.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-17-13, 14:02
Like any job sometimes friends and family get perks. Although I'm sure there are some real idiots out there using an leo relationship for their benefit there are more non leo family and friends getting breaks everyday than cops kids and wives.
In reality showing a respect of the law and being polite to an officer will get you out of a ticket more times than not.
I have a funny feeling that the ambivalence I'm seeing here is a common character trait of those who feel that police lord over them in some way.
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I feel there is a difference between a business owner giving his employees a discount vs an officer giving another officer a break for breaking the law. A more apt comparison would be if a employee allowed some of his friends to use his employee discount without his bosses permission. Something that could very well get them fired.
Pat
Eurodriver
09-17-13, 14:06
With respect because I know it is the culture in some areas but this is wrong. We should be held to a higher standard as leo's we should not be asking for breaks. Now if the officer was inclined to give a warning on his own that is fine but it should not be asked for. As for free coffee, meals etc that is simply bribery. Those business owners expect something from you if they are ever in a jam. I don't want anyone to have that kind of leverage over me. Up here is forbidden and an officer will be disciplined and fired depending on the severity if he accepts gratuities. I feel that by accepting free stuff your putting your integrity up for sale. I received a speeding ticket from the Anchorage Police Department about 4 years ago. I earned it and not once did I badge the officer or ask for a break. I did tell him I was armed per the legal requirement we have in Alaska. I earned the ticket (14 over) I knew better and should have been paying attention to my speed. The public hates double standards and its hurting our credibility at a time when we can't afford that.
Pat
Well I'll be....
http://markreads.net/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/clapping.gif
The problem is that it undermines the credibility of the department and of all LEOs in general. It's favoritism when laws should be applied equally to everyone. Hell, LEOs should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. The idea and practice of "professional courtesy" is the exact opposite of that.
It's frankly dishonorable and it breaks the public's trust. This isn't meant as a personal attack on you, but as a commentary in general on the practice.
We should bear in mind mikelowrey didn't invent the practice, he was simply the guy who was honest enough to disclose it on an open forum. Even if he accepted the "errors of his ways" and stopped participating immediately it wouldn't change a thing as 99% of the rest of the officers in the area would continue to do it.
Yes it's bullshit, but so is a lot of perks extended to the families of Congressmen which are tax payer funded.
And at least mikelowrey is attempting to make sure his family doesn't adopt an entitlement mentality. Half the people I know with something like that would have it waving in the window as soon as the cop walked up.
With respect because I know it is the culture in some areas but this is wrong. We should be held to a higher standard as leo's we should not be asking for breaks. Now if the officer was inclined to give a warning on his own that is fine but it should not be asked for. As for free coffee, meals etc that is simply bribery. Those business owners expect something from you if they are ever in a jam. I don't want anyone to have that kind of leverage over me. Up here is forbidden and an officer will be disciplined and fired depending on the severity if he accepts gratuities. I feel that by accepting free stuff your putting your integrity up for sale. I received a speeding ticket from the Anchorage Police Department about 4 years ago. I earned it and not once did I badge the officer or ask for a break. I did tell him I was armed per the legal requirement we have in Alaska. I earned the ticket (14 over) I knew better and should have been paying attention to my speed. The public hates double standards and its hurting our credibility at a time when we can't afford that.
Pat
Well said Pat.
I have a funny feeling that the ambivalence I'm seeing here is a common character trait of those who feel that police lord over them in some way.
Not true at all. Local and state police don't even have jurisdiction where I'm physically located most of the time.
But as someone who tries to live up to the idea of "integrity first," I find it distasteful that this practice still exists... and even more, that it seems like the majority of LEOs are completely behind it.
This is about accountability, integrity, responsibility, trust, honor, and just being a f***ing man. Own up to what you did, pay the price for your mistake just like any other person in this country and move on with life. You don't like the double standard of politicians, right? Why should you accept it from fellow LEOs?
We should bear in mind mikelowrey didn't invent the practice, he was simply the guy who was honest enough to disclose it on an open forum. Even if he accepted the "errors of his ways" and stopped participating immediately it wouldn't change a thing as 99% of the rest of the officers in the area would continue to do it.
Yes it's bullshit, but so is a lot of perks extended to the families of Congressmen which are tax payer funded.
And at least mikelowrey is attempting to make sure his family doesn't adopt an entitlement mentality. Half the people I know with something like that would have it waving in the window as soon as the cop walked up.
It isn't a huge secret that it exists, there are numerous articles about it on the Internet and I remember first hearing about it a decade ago or so.
And yeah, as I said in the post you quoted, it isn't a personal attack on him, it's disgust with a practice that goes against just about everything law enforcement is supposed to stand for.
Alaskapopo
09-17-13, 14:11
We should bear in mind mikelowrey didn't invent the practice, he was simply the guy who was honest enough to disclose it on an open forum. Even if he accepted the "errors of his ways" and stopped participating immediately it wouldn't change a thing as 99% of the rest of the officers in the area would continue to do it.
Yes it's bullshit, but so is a lot of perks extended to the families of Congressmen which are tax payer funded.
And at least mikelowrey is attempting to make sure his family doesn't adopt an entitlement mentality. Half the people I know with something like that would have it waving in the window as soon as the cop walked up.
I am not flaming anyone and I admire his honesty. But I feel we need to stop this practice. We have for the most part up here in Alaska. I feel we need to stop it everywhere. But that will take time and education. I don't think all officers know how much it hurts our credibility as a whole.
I feel that the interpretstion of honor and the extension of courtesy amusing.
I guess that a doctor who shows a little extra attention to friends of extends a perscription for pain meds is different?
In the end the proffesional makes a decision to extend that courtesy and weigh the possible ramifications of same.
Giving a pass for a kid speeding or a mom who rolled through a stop sign is not indicative of an immoral or unethical officer. Now if that same officer covets up a crime committed by said family or friend there is a problem.
Let pose a scenario: You have an AR-15 which my govenor (the people) have declared illegal. You gets pulled over and openly states you have a weapon locked and cased in his trunk. Lets assume that you are an upstanding citizen and a friend/leo gave you a courtesy card.
The officer is an avid 2nd Amendment supporter. You are clearly in possesion of an illegal/unregistered assault weapon. The officer places you under arrest.
Now change the scenario and say you were speeding 45 in a 30 mph zone. You are polite and take a humble (apologize) for not realizing your speeding.
Question: Is the officer acting in a dishonarable or unethical manner?
BTW: This has been a huge gray area that all cops have conflict with. Later I'll tell u some shockers.
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Let pose a scenario: You have an AR-15 which my govenor (the people) have declared illegal. You gets pulled over and openly states you have a weapon locked and cased in his trunk. Lets assume that you are an upstanding citizen and a friend/leo gave you a courtesy card.
I can't even understand what that means. I have an AR-15 in the governors trunk? What is a courtesy card?
The officer is an avid 2nd Amendment supporter. You are clearly in possesion of an illegal/unregistered assault weapon. The officer places you under arrest.
Ok, I have an illegal gun and I get arrested. That sounds about right
.
Now change the scenario and say you were speeding 45 in a 30 mph zone. You are polite and take a humble (apologize) for not realizing your speeding.
Ok, I'm 15 over, breaking a law.
Question: Is the officer acting in a dishonarable or unethical manner?
I don't know.... what's he doing?
BTW: This has been a huge gray area that all cops have conflict with.
Yeah, I'll bet.... none of it makes sense.
I feel that the interpretstion of honor and the extension of courtesy amusing.
I guess that a doctor who shows a little extra attention to friends of extends a perscription for pain meds is different?
In the end the proffesional makes a decision to extend that courtesy and weigh the possible ramifications of same.
Giving a pass for a kid speeding or a mom who rolled through a stop sign is not indicative of an immoral or unethical officer. Now if that same officer covets up a crime committed by said family or friend there is a problem.
The doctor is indeed wrong for giving a perscription for pain meds when he shouldn't have but for the fact that it was a friend or family member.
Honor and integrity is doing the right thing at all times, even if you know you won't get caught. Even if there are no ramifications whatsoever, letting someone off the hook only because they're the friend of an officer is wrong.
Let pose a scenario: You have an AR-15 which my govenor (the people) have declared illegal. You gets pulled over and openly states you have a weapon locked and cased in his trunk. Lets assume that you are an upstanding citizen and a friend/leo gave you a courtesy card.
The officer is an avid 2nd Amendment supporter. You are clearly in possesion of an illegal/unregistered assault weapon. The officer places you under arrest.
Whether a law itself is ethical or not is a different debate from that of applying the law equally to everyone.
Now change the scenario and say you were speeding 45 in a 30 mph zone. You are polite and take a humble (apologize) for not realizing your speeding.
Question: Is the officer acting in a dishonarable or unethical manner?
He is not acting in a dishonorable nor an unethical manner for arresting or otherwise writing you ticket.
... how did we get so off-topic?
Giving a pass for a kid speeding or a mom who rolled through a stop sign is not indicative of an immoral or unethical officer.
No it's not immoral. It could be incompetence depending on how the officer is reasoning out the situation. IOW, would a wiser peer group do otherwise. It could be unethical based on the circumstances.
IOW, if he is sitting at an intersection and critically observing everyone that comes through. If he stops everyone that comes through that is out of line and only lets his next door neighbor's kid off, then that is unethical.
You have definite, serious issues and are out of touch with reality. You go off the deep end on a consistent basis and carry things to the extreme. From what I gather from your posts it's rather frightening that you do have a badge.
And for what it's worth there are police who are raping women and children on at least a weekly basis. Simple peruse www.policemisconduct.net for examples.
Whats really frightening is you believe the "stuff" you post.
I believe there is a psychological disorder that can explain why you believe people (well I'm not sure you believe Police Officers are people) are out "to get you".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
You have a serious bone to pick with Police.....which I find very interesting...almost like you've dealt with them before (with negative results). Apparently its the new cool thing to do I guess. Do you feel the same way about the military or natl' guard?
I am not flaming anyone and I admire his honesty. But I feel we need to stop this practice. We have for the most part up here in Alaska. I feel we need to stop it everywhere. But that will take time and education. I don't think all officers know how much it hurts our credibility as a whole.
Don't wait for an argument from me.
I also think this is an influence of big city practices. Places like NYC and Chicago expect gratuities, kickbacks and bribes as much as they expect snow in December. That it has filtered to law enforcement practices to some degree is hardly surprising.
On the one hand I could see how some people might think it innocent. If I were a deli owner I might hand out free coffee and sandwiches to the local officers on my beat to ensure a positive relationship and to have them around regularly. Cheap insurance against the many bad elements in the neighborhood.
The problem of course occurs when somebody gets charged for their coffee and sandwich and they think "screw this guy, if he's ever in trouble he's on his own" which is the result of entitlement mentalities.
Whats really frightening is you believe the "stuff" you post.
I believe there is a psychological disorder that can explain why you believe people (well I'm not sure you believe Police Officers are people) are out "to get you".
You have a serious bone to pick with Police.....which I find very interesting...almost like you've dealt with them before (with negative results). Apparently its the new cool thing to do I guess. Do you feel the same way about the military or natl' guard?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "stuff". I try to stay well within the lines of reason when I'm posting on any subject, police-related or not.
I don't feel that anyone is out "to get me" in any sense. I've gotten a few speeding tickets, whoops! Outside of that you'd be hard pressed to find anything of guilt in my past. There are several police officers on this forum and others who agree with and espouse the same ideals as myself. Along with those I have several very close friends who wear the uniform and who typically agree with my positions as well.
The police and the military are worlds apart and really don't present a good comparison. I'm ex-Mil if it matters to you so maybe I'm biased.
Who knows, maybe I just misinterpreted what you posted?
I know, its a shocker since apparently everyone here lives in corrupt gestapoville were the police rape the women and children on a daily basis.
The police and the military are worlds apart and really don't present a good comparison. I'm ex-Mil if it matters to you so maybe I'm biased.
I'm "shocked"....(<<< That's sarcasm also). I could get in to how you feel about having worked for such an immoral, illegal, and corrupt employer, but I don't want to take this thread too off topic. Carry on being the pot that calls the kettle black...
BTW my gestapoville comment was "tongue in cheek" sarcasm....(kinda pointing to the fact that some people blow things out of proportion but whatever)
Well, this was a nice thread...
And for the record, no, I'm not a fan of the practice. Like Alaskapopo, I'll only bring it up if I need to inform an LEO that I'm armed.
I can see by the replies that there are a lot of strong feelings on this subject. Lets take the courtesy cards and family badges out of this picture and just understand that discretion is one of the policemans powers and probably the most abused.
I hope you understand what I'm saying....
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I just realized how far this thread has veered away from its intended subject.
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