View Full Version : How Does A Civ CCW Responder Not Get Shot By LEO During An Active Shooting Incident?
I figure today is a good day to post this as it seems very relevant considering the recent news about the shooting in DC.
Mods if you want to move this to Tactics/Training if you think that is more appropriate?
I was thinking about this last night before I went to bed and I was planning on posting it to the group for thoughts, especially from Trainers, Subject Matter Experts, and LEO, so here is my question:
How should a civilian who is present during an active shooting, who draws his/her weapon and engages a/the shooter (whether successful or not) respond immediately after his shots are fired in order to avoid being shot and killed by responding LEO?
The University I work at recently released a rather interesting video on how us simple civilians should respond to an active shooter, and the last option they provided us was to "FIGHT" if all else fails. In this scene the glorious students fend off the shooter with a belt, a pen, and a set of keys in between their knuckles long enough for the responding officers to come kill the shooter.
So it seems to me that because this is the official response of the State Police agency who made our video, that us civvies have a right to "fight" to defend ourselves... But, with that said, I'm 100% positive that if I drew my pistol, "fought" and eliminated the threat that the responding officer at my institution would shoot me without a seconds thought. I think they would also shoot me if I obeyed their gun free zone (which I do) and used a blunt object or a knife to defend myself. They wouldn't give me a chance to identify myself, they would just shoot to kill, and I say that more in empathy towards how crazy the situation would be, then I do to criticize them.
How would those of you in the know suggest a civilian respond after a weapon is drawn in order to avoid this most likely and most unfortunate of outcomes?
NCPatrolAR
09-16-13, 21:19
Don't have a gun in your hands when the police get there is the best way.
Calling 911 and giving your detailed description to the operator may help but I wouldn't count on it
So what drop your firearm, holster your firearm, what if it happens all within seconds?
I honestly think the civilian would be screwed and the media/responding agency would spin it to blame the CCW process and encourage more gun control.
My thought has always been to have a person in the party, or if alone one's self, call in after any action is taken and ask how to proceed from there on out.
If I shoot someone I'm going to court no matter what, but I just don't want to get shot because I responded to force with force.
If your life is not in immediate danger, you run the other way and let the sheeple get shot.
Your life and life savings is not worth some stranger's life.
Expect to get shot when the SWAT team arrives. If you stop the shooter, expect to get charges filed for making the local PD look bad.
Expect a six or seven figure legal bill that all those morons you saved won't help you pay.
You don't want to end up like George Zimmerman.
When some idiotic parents tell me they would do anything to save their child's life, I responded to them by saying:
"So you would pay for my seven figure legal bill if I used my CCW to stop an active shooting at your child's school?"
Let the gene pool be thinned.
Don't have a gun in your hands when the police get there is the best way.
Calling 911 and giving your detailed description to the operator may help but I wouldn't count on it
Right. When we do room clearing training with 2D targets, LE will COMMONLY shoot the LE targets. :confused:
Having talked with some of the best minds in the training world (and local LE), this is what I tell my students:
1. Make sure the threat is down.
2. Look for any other threats.
3. Holster weapon and conceal it.
4. Move away from the body (into a corner or some place you limit your exposure)
5. Call 911 and give a description of what you look like and what the bad guy looks like.
6. Have hands in the air! No sudden movements, etc.
C4
If your life is not in immediate danger, you run the other way and let the sheeple get shot.
Your life and life savings is not worth some stranger's life.
Expect to get shot when the SWAT team arrives. If you stop the shooter, expect to get charges filed for making the local PD look bad.
Expect a six or seven figure legal bill that all those morons you saved won't help you pay.
You don't want to end up like George Zimmerman.
When some idiotic parents tell me they would do anything to save their child's life, I responded to them by saying:
"So you would pay for my seven figure legal bill if I used my CCW to stop an active shooting at your child's school?"
Let the gene pool be thinned.
This isn't about heroism. But just like if it only me in a dark alley, if I have no way to survive but to fight, I will fight and I'll do it to using the best tools on hand.
As will most of you all here.
Thanks Grant.
What would your response be if the answer to No. 2 is: There are identifiable threats and responding LEO within the same general area?
A real world example would be the Mumbai shooting or maybe this Navy Yard shooting if it turns out there were two+ threats.
Don't have a gun in your hands when the police get there is the best way.
Calling 911 and giving your detailed description to the operator may help but I wouldn't count on it
Bingo. We're probably not going to take the time to ask if you're a good guy or bad guy.
Do what you have to do (hopefully kill the turd), and then put your gun down and keep your hands very visible.
Description is HUGE. I cant count how many times I've responded to an assault, fight, hit and run, ect, WITHOUT a description......we're already behind the 8-ball, no description puts us even further behind.
first off chances are if a shooter comes in and you are there and armed to engage
no LEO being called is going to be there the moment it happens !
so almost impossible for you to overlap in time
unless they are on scene at the same time by chance ?
I would be more fearful of being shot by another armed person
imagine the chaos and you see a guy with a gun pulling the trigger ?
would you think OH he is a good guy or would you think OH NO another shooter ?
if I was there for sure after stopping I would holster up conceal my firearm and take cover with others but also not hide ! still be with the group in plain site to LEO coming in as example or get into a safe area as quick as I could again not hiding kinda thing once the situation is under control I would for sure come forward as quick as I could and say I stopped the bad guy and then immediately lawyer up
so only thing to say is Yes I feared my life and stopped the threat
Don't have a gun in your hands when the police get there is the best way.
Calling 911 and giving your detailed description to the operator may help but I wouldn't count on it
I'd only add make sure you really want to go in. Obviously if you have kids in a school or something like that you are going. But keep in mind even with 911 being informed you look like a good candidate for the "active shooter" the police are responding to.
Sucks, but that is the way it is. Cops aren't gonna get themselves killed playing "Mother may I?"
Seven minutes response time from MPD SWAT today. You have several minutes unless for some odd reason there is some LE right there who will be responding to the same stimuli you are, and that person would understand YOU are not the "bad guy".
Well, you hope...
Don't have a gun in your hands when the police get there is the best way.
Calling 911 and giving your detailed description to the operator may help but I wouldn't count on it
That is sound advice. If you have a firearm in your hand when LEO arrives you have a very good chance of being shot. Make sure your hands are empty. If you holster a firearm, cover it up with your shirt tail before LEO sees you.
Information you give to a telecommunicator does not always reach field LEO. When the information does reach field LEO, the information usually sounds nothing like what you provided the telecommunicator.
Count on being ordered to the ground and handcuffed and you won't be surprised.
I'm surprised none of you are advocating the "key in knuckles make a fist" approach to self defense... :)
Why is that?
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. This is pretty much what I have figured all along.
One thing I have been wondering lately is how often a citizen's actions have stopped possible active shooters? How many people have "drawn guns" in public in the last decade only to be subdued, attacked, or shot by civilians prior to LEO responding. We would never know if the incident stopped was just a "domestic" or a potential mass shooter because the event planned by the attacker and prevented by the responder never happened... Stopping something that may have been does not offer the best headlines so not much to report on by the media.
1. Make sure the threat is down.
2. Look for any other threats.
3. Holster weapon and conceal it.
4. Move away from the body (into a corner or some place you limit your exposure)
5. Call 911 and give a description of what you look like and what the bad guy looks like.
6. Have hands in the air! No sudden movements, etc.
This is exactly the same conclusion I've come to after giving the subject a lot of thought.
I'm surprised none of you are advocating the "key in knuckles make a fist" approach to self defense... :)
Why is that?
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. This is pretty much what I have figured all along.
One thing I have been wondering lately is how often a citizen's actions have stopped possible active shooters? How many people have "drawn guns" in public in the last decade only to be subdued, attacked, or shot by civilians prior to LEO responding. We would never know if the incident stopped was just a "domestic" or a potential mass shooter because the event planned by the attacker and prevented by the responder never happened... Stopping something that may have been does not offer the best headlines so not much to report on by the media.
Two incidents that come to mind. There was a guy with a rifle in a mall in Oregon, who after only a few shots fired, saw a ccw pull his gun. He then went into a hallway and killed himself. And there was a school shooting in Miss. where the shooter was detained by a principal who got a gun from his car. The shooter was leaving the high school and about to cross the street to enter a middle school. But you're right, these cases will never get the same attention.
Army Chief
09-17-13, 07:23
Seems to me that if you have a gun in your hand, then you're pretty much asking to get shot -- or, at the very least, treated as a belligerent party. Best to barricade/evade and make sure you aren't brandishing a weapon when help arrives, as the confusion of the moment will surely influence the outcome, regardless of your intent.
In some ways, this brings to mind the whole hostage/prisoner recovery scenario in the military, where we are trained not to attempt to aid the rescue/assault team in any way, but instead to lay down flat, be totally-compliant and expect to be bagged and dragged from the scene until things can be sorted-out in a less-kinetic environment. No sense trying to play the hero and complicating things unnecessarily.
Things happen so quickly, and there are so many unknowns during an active response that nothing you say or do in the heat of the moment is really likely to influence the guy breaching the doorway and looking down his sights, trying to figure out if you are an active target or just a part of the landscape.
AC
Crow Hunter
09-17-13, 08:03
I have thought about this a bunch.
Honestly, I don't see a "way out". If you decide to engage an active shooter threat, you should be prepared not only that you might be shot by the threat but you may also be shot by another CCW bystander or more likely a responding LEO.
Honestly.
Unless I am directly defending myself or those within my immediate vicinity, I am moving to escape/evade and let the uniformed police do their job. I will give "overwatch", as in moving obviously unarmed people out of harms way and to safety, while I try to keep an eye out for the shooter. I am not qualified or trained enough to go "hunting" for an active shooter.
If I am backed into a corner, a room I can't escape or if given a target of opportunity because I was overlooked by an obvious shooter (I have see him/her firing on unarmed civilians) I would take a shot. Otherwise I won't.
I don't really want to get shot and more importantly I don't want to accidently shoot a first responder or CCW mistakenly because he was "the guy with the gun".
I also specifically don't wear "shoot me first" clothing/accessories. I have been excoriated before by BTDT guys that say that I am a moron. But even I, just a overweight, middle aged mechanical engineer have walked into a room and could often tell which guys were cops/armed by what they were wearing. So I know which guys I would have shot first if I decided to pull out a weapon and start shooting up a room.
That is also why I think that uniformed security is good for making people "feel protected" but plainclothes armed security is much better for making sure they are protected.
Eurodriver
09-17-13, 08:08
I also specifically don't wear "shoot me first" clothing/accessories. I have been excoriated before by BTDT guys that say that I am a moron. But even I, just a overweight, middle aged mechanical engineer have walked into a room and could often tell which guys were cops/armed by what they were wearing. So I know which guys I would have shot first if I decided to pull out a weapon and start shooting up a room.
Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?
Was I close? :D
Crow Hunter
09-17-13, 08:38
Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?
Was I close? :D
Is my computer camera on or something.:D
I work with a semi-famous IDPA shooter that now owns his own bullet company.
He dresses in shoot me first clothing ALL THE TIME. There is a big difference in what I am wearing and what he is wearing.
I look like a retail employee, and often get asked where things are if I am in a retail store.:rolleyes:
He, on the other hand, looks like a tactical clothing ad in SWAT magazine.:D
It is bad enough that I can tell who he is by only seeing him from the waist down.
We were having a company function and I said "Well XXXX is here." My wife said, "How do you know?" I said "I can see his tactical pants over there under the display board." Then my wife said, "Oh wow. Is he carrying here, I thought you couldn't carry here?"
Now if someone has a grudge against retail workers, I am a target.:D
Thanks Grant.
What would your response be if the answer to No. 2 is: There are identifiable threats and responding LEO within the same general area?
A real world example would be the Mumbai shooting or maybe this Navy Yard shooting if it turns out there were two+ threats.
Generally, we are looking to see if the bad guy has any friends.
While there could be an off duty cop or undercover cop in the same area, that is unlikely.
Average LE response time is 5-10 in most areas (unless rural). So you should have plenty of time to put your gun away and move away from the body.
C4
Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?
Was I close? :D
Crap! You caught me. :D
C4
Ginormous post deleted, thanks to Crowhunter.
Well said.
Actively looking for the shooter, or covering down a hallway as a strong point makes it easy to be misidentified as A/THE shooter by a 911 caller. It also makes it harder for LEOs to pass you by. At worst, you're a shooter, and you have to be dealt with. At best, you're still an armed unknown, and may have to be detained. You might also be misidentified by your doppleganger; i.e. another CCW holder or off duty LEO. All this slows down the press towards the actual shooter(s) who in the meantime may still be killing, or on E&E.
For my Brothers in Blue/Brown/Black/PacNor Green, this applies to your off duty response as well.
Make your decision to intervene a well informed one.
Is my computer camera on or something.:D
I work with a semi-famous IDPA shooter that now owns his own bullet company.
He dresses in shoot me first clothing ALL THE TIME. There is a big difference in what I am wearing and what he is wearing.
I look like a retail employee, and often get asked where things are if I am in a retail store.:rolleyes:
He, on the other hand, looks like a tactical clothing ad in SWAT magazine.:D
It is bad enough that I can tell who he is by only seeing him from the waist down.
We were having a company function and I said "Well XXXX is here." My wife said, "How do you know?" I said "I can see his tactical pants over there under the display board." Then my wife said, "Oh wow. Is he carrying here, I thought you couldn't carry here?"
Now if someone has a grudge against retail workers, I am a target.:D
It is funny how you can spot CCW holders pretty quick. I taught a class to some folks on what to look for (flags if you will) that they probably have a gun on them (or is in the parking lot). Most people are not aware of what 5.11 is. They have never seen a Suunto watch or a Benchmade knife or Merrell/Salomon shoes or a SureFire flashlight.
Fast forward months after this training. A guy walked into their church wearing 5.11's and black boots. One of my "trainees" made him instantly and sure enough, he had a gun on him. :D
C4
Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?
Was I close? :D
especially if those khaki pants have more than 6 pockets, or any pockets on the ankle.
Don't go to the mall dressed like you're going fishing.
Don't carry bags or packs with lots of MOLLE.
This could be a completely new thread.
I usually play "Spot the LEO" when I'm out. "Spot the FAM" is a great way to pass time at the airport.
Eurodriver
09-17-13, 09:09
Salomon shoes
C4
OHHHHHHHH.....
I've been wondering what the heck those shoes were called!
Spurholder
09-17-13, 09:16
especially if those khaki pants have more than 6 pockets, or any pockets on the ankle.
Don't go to the mall dressed like you're going fishing.
Don't carry bags or packs with lots of MOLLE.
This could be a completely new thread.
Newest tactical clothing guide...yeah, very metrosexual - got it.
http://global.ralphlauren.com/en-us/rlstyleguide/men/highlights/keypieces/Pages/default.aspx?ab=StyleGuide_FALL13_Men_TN_Highlights_KeyPieces
Check out the cargo pants! Seems the 5.11 guys aren't as removed as we might think.
OHHHHHHHH.....
I've been wondering what the heck those shoes were called!
They should be called AWESOME! Have a pair on right now. They are all I will buy now.
C4
Newest tactical clothing guide...yeah, very metrosexual - got it.
http://global.ralphlauren.com/en-us/rlstyleguide/men/highlights/keypieces/Pages/default.aspx?ab=StyleGuide_FALL13_Men_TN_Highlights_KeyPieces
Check out the cargo pants! Seems the 5.11 guys aren't as removed as we might think.
Those cargos look more retro/vintage. I'm talking about the kind with two back pockets, per cheek, the more "BDU" style thigh pocket, and the "is that for a TQ or for chemlights?" ankle pocket. The cell phone pocket above the thigh pocket is copied by a lot of manufacturers, too.
The vertical zipper pocket that's supposed to blend in with the seam is also a bit of a giveaway. Then again, I wear a pair like that often, so I'm kinda keyed in to it.
If you find yourself in an active shooter situation, if you're armed and you intervene then you might get killed by responding LE. Unfortunate, but it is a real risk. Based on the circumstances, you just have to make a choice and roll with it. When the police do finally arrive, try to be low and behind cover showing empty hands, announcing you're a "good guy" and follow their directions.
Spurholder
09-17-13, 12:56
Those cargos look more retro/vintage. I'm talking about the kind with two back pockets, per cheek, the more "BDU" style thigh pocket, and the "is that for a TQ or for chemlights?" ankle pocket. The cell phone pocket above the thigh pocket is copied by a lot of manufacturers, too.
The vertical zipper pocket that's supposed to blend in with the seam is also a bit of a giveaway. Then again, I wear a pair like that often, so I'm kinda keyed in to it.
I know what you're saying - my "go to" clothing line for civilian attire is Polo, and I'm pretty sure I blend in with every other guy in their 40's and 50's. I just found it funny that RL has stuff considered "fashionable" that could've come out of (at least) a Cabela's catalog. Maybe 5.11's not too removed...
Right. When we do room clearing training with 2D targets, LE will COMMONLY shoot the LE targets. :confused:
Having talked with some of the best minds in the training world (and local LE), this is what I tell my students:
1. Make sure the threat is down.
2. Look for any other threats.
3. Holster weapon and conceal it.
4. Move away from the body (into a corner or some place you limit your exposure)
5. Call 911 and give a description of what you look like and what the bad guy looks like.
6. Have hands in the air! No sudden movements, etc.
C4
Yes exactly and get any witnesses names, numbers and most importantly addresses. You are the victim but the police will probably see you as the threat so don't be threatening lol
I know what you're saying - my "go to" clothing line for civilian attire is Polo, and I'm pretty sure I blend in with every other guy in their 40's and 50's. I just found it funny that RL has stuff considered "fashionable" that could've come out of (at least) a Cabela's catalog. Maybe 5.11's not too removed...
Here's my problem.
I get all that stuff at cost being a dealer. So for the same money I can wear 511s, Woolrich, Propper, TruSpec, etc. or I can buy the crap at Wal Mart. I try and buy generic polos from Hanes so I stand out less, plus they have color options beyond black, white and grey.
Eurodriver
09-17-13, 14:00
Here's my problem.
I get all that stuff at cost being a dealer. So for the same money I can wear 511s, Woolrich, Propper, TruSpec, etc. or I can buy the crap at Wal Mart. I try and buy generic polos from Hanes so I stand out less, plus they have color options beyond black, white and grey.
Why do you wear that stuff at all? Not being condescending. I just don't understand why anyone would want to be dressed like that.
No one would assume I'm packing....she is too. :D
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/Eurodriver11/469263_3077851381079_1786110900_o_zps137f57ce.jpg
Alaskapopo
09-17-13, 14:06
I figure today is a good day to post this as it seems very relevant considering the recent news about the shooting in DC.
Mods if you want to move this to Tactics/Training if you think that is more appropriate?
I was thinking about this last night before I went to bed and I was planning on posting it to the group for thoughts, especially from Trainers, Subject Matter Experts, and LEO, so here is my question:
How should a civilian who is present during an active shooting, who draws his/her weapon and engages a/the shooter (whether successful or not) respond immediately after his shots are fired in order to avoid being shot and killed by responding LEO?
The University I work at recently released a rather interesting video on how us simple civilians should respond to an active shooter, and the last option they provided us was to "FIGHT" if all else fails. In this scene the glorious students fend off the shooter with a belt, a pen, and a set of keys in between their knuckles long enough for the responding officers to come kill the shooter.
So it seems to me that because this is the official response of the State Police agency who made our video, that us civvies have a right to "fight" to defend ourselves... But, with that said, I'm 100% positive that if I drew my pistol, "fought" and eliminated the threat that the responding officer at my institution would shoot me without a seconds thought. I think they would also shoot me if I obeyed their gun free zone (which I do) and used a blunt object or a knife to defend myself. They wouldn't give me a chance to identify myself, they would just shoot to kill, and I say that more in empathy towards how crazy the situation would be, then I do to criticize them.
How would those of you in the know suggest a civilian respond after a weapon is drawn in order to avoid this most likely and most unfortunate of outcomes?
I have thought about this as well if I responded off duty to an active shooter. Just some thoughts I had.
1. Call 911 and describe who you are and what your are wearing leave the line open and update dispatch and give the best intel you can as your looking for the shooter.
2. After your done engaging the shooter and you have scanned the area and you feel its safe. Put your gun away.
3. Follow all orders of responding officers even if it feels wrong like lay on the ground and let them cuff you up.
RogerinTPA
09-17-13, 14:16
Newest tactical clothing guide...yeah, very metrosexual - got it.
http://global.ralphlauren.com/en-us/rlstyleguide/men/highlights/keypieces/Pages/default.aspx?ab=StyleGuide_FALL13_Men_TN_Highlights_KeyPieces
Check out the cargo pants! Seems the 5.11 guys aren't as removed as we might think.
That line was specifically designed to harden the look of non-heteros and metros.:p
Understanding the risks and trying to mitigate them is the best option. As a civilian, IMO the best policy is to get out of the way unless you are directly involved in the breakout of hostilities. If you're there and see it unfold you should have a decent idea who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. If there are uniformed LEO in the immediate area let them do their thing without getting in the way. If there aren't any LEO around you're likely to have a minute or two or 7 before they get on scene so do your thing and get ready for the legal roller coaster ride.
If you are NOT privy to the whole picture stay the **** of it unless you have some super super serious reason to get involved, like your kid or other family are in immediate danger and there is no LEO help available. Going into harms way after the initial fray is over is a good way to get shot or shoot the wrong guy. You need to remember that coming on scene late puts you in the same boat as the cops. No real time to sort wheat from chaff when people are pointing guns. Instead of a CCW guy who just fended off a terrorist attack getting lit up by a SWAT team you may be the one lighting him up.
So, what do they teach off-duty or plainclothes LEO?
I'm more than prepared to shout "POLICE OFFICER" and take a misdomeaner for impersonating rather than get shot...
Alaskapopo
09-17-13, 14:43
So, what do they teach off-duty or plainclothes LEO?
I'm more than prepared to shout "POLICE OFFICER" and take a misdomeaner for impersonating rather than get shot...
In some areas its a felony. This is a tough situation to be sure.
Pat
Apricotshot
09-17-13, 14:49
So, what do they teach off-duty or plainclothes LEO?
I'm more than prepared to shout "POLICE OFFICER" and take a misdomeaner for impersonating rather than get shot...
What's keeping a bad guy from saying the same thing?
Eurodriver
09-17-13, 14:56
In some areas its a felony. This is a tough situation to be sure.
Pat
I can't see any sane judge, DA, PD prosecuting a man who just took out an active shooter but yelled DONT SHOOT POLICE OFFICER when PD proned him out.
An easy defense to that would be "I was telling the police not to shoot me."
Hardly prosecutable. unless you ran into an entire department who didn't want you to make them look bad.
DONT SHOOT POLICE OFFICER.
Ambiguous sentence is ambiguous.
Spurholder
09-17-13, 15:10
That line was specifically designed to harden the look of non-heteros and metros.:p
Exactly - tough, but not like a character from "Strike Back" tough :D
What's keeping a bad guy from saying the same thing?
Not a damn thing...but maybe, JUST MAYBE, it will cause the officer's trigger finger to relax long enough to take a second look...
And, yes Pat, it may even be a felony, but if you did it to save your own life, after you just saved a bunch of others...I'll take that chance...
Anybody that wears tactical ccw clothing in public is a douche.
Why do you wear that stuff at all? Not being condescending. I just don't understand why anyone would want to be dressed like that.
No one would assume I'm packing....she is too. :D
Again, I get it at cost.
So for the same money spent I can wear 511 kakhi's or "made in Haiti" kakhi pants from Wal Mart. The 511s are made better.
But I'm not really head to toe, I wear regular shoes and generic (Hanes) polos.
It's not like I'm walking around in tiger stripe bdus.
Anybody that wears tactical ccw clothing in public is a douche.
And it's different from a guy in jeans with a HK or Colt t shirt how?
Magic_Salad0892
09-18-13, 00:17
If your life is not in immediate danger, you run the other way and let the sheeple get shot.
Your life and life savings is not worth some stranger's life.
Expect to get shot when the SWAT team arrives. If you stop the shooter, expect to get charges filed for making the local PD look bad.
Expect a six or seven figure legal bill that all those morons you saved won't help you pay.
You don't want to end up like George Zimmerman.
When some idiotic parents tell me they would do anything to save their child's life, I responded to them by saying:
"So you would pay for my seven figure legal bill if I used my CCW to stop an active shooting at your child's school?"
Let the gene pool be thinned.
Your advice wouldn't keep my conscience clean.
If human beings are in immediate danger, I'm moving on it.
If there's a clear discernible threat, I'm taking the shot.
And side note: I don't wear "shoot me" clothing. Black suit shirts (usually with rolled up sleeves), aviators, and dark blue boot-cut jeans. Lol.
IZinterrogator
09-18-13, 00:28
I remember seeing something about Pantaeo coming out with an "Active Shooter Response" video this week. Might be worth viewing if you have a subscription.
Grant,
How does my wardrobe of Hawaiian shirts/baseball jerseys and jeans fare in the "is he packing" game? :D
Alaskapopo
09-18-13, 00:42
If your life is not in immediate danger, you run the other way and let the sheeple get shot.
Your life and life savings is not worth some stranger's life.
Expect to get shot when the SWAT team arrives. If you stop the shooter, expect to get charges filed for making the local PD look bad.
Expect a six or seven figure legal bill that all those morons you saved won't help you pay.
You don't want to end up like George Zimmerman.
When some idiotic parents tell me they would do anything to save their child's life, I responded to them by saying:
"So you would pay for my seven figure legal bill if I used my CCW to stop an active shooting at your child's school?"
Let the gene pool be thinned.
1. I don't think many of us here could just look the other way as people got shot.
2. If you use some common sense you won't get shot by the SWAT team.
3. The PD will not look bad if you take out the bad guy and you would probably get an award from the mayor.
4. Zimmermans case is not even remotely similar to the question posed here.
5. Even if you have a 7 figure legal bill in the end its better than not being able to sleep at night because you did not stop an evil man when you could have.
Pat
5. Even if you have a 7 figure legal bill in the end its better than not being able to sleep at night because you did not stop an evil man when you could have.
Pat
Getting downright scary how much we are in agreement lately.
:D
And it's different from a guy in jeans with a HK or Colt t shirt how?
It isn't.
Gun people that can't blend in and wear standard plain clothing are douches.
1. I don't think many of us here could just look the other way as people got shot.
2. If you use some common sense you won't get shot by the SWAT team.
3. The PD will not look bad if you take out the bad guy and you would probably get an award from the mayor.
4. Zimmermans case is not even remotely similar to the question posed here.
5. Even if you have a 7 figure legal bill in the end its better than not being able to sleep at night because you did not stop an evil man when you could have.
Pat
:rolleyes:
Yeah, I am going to waste my life savings and my ability to be employed to provide for my own family, on some strangers' lives.
Maybe in a conservative western red state you might get an award from the mayor. Do you think you would get an award from the mayor if you stopped a shooting at a mall in LA, Chicago, Denver, or Detroit?
It isn't.
Gun people that can't blend in and wear standard plain clothing are douches.
So what if you consider buying a gun tshirt just to wrangle all your anti gun coworkers... :)
I dress like the guy I am, someone who works for a living and does things that put holes in the knees of his pants. So Carhartt, Duluth (my new favorite), Dickies, and tshirts. A lot of the Facilities guys that work at my school love to sport the Remington gear ever since the SAFE ACT was passed though, and I don't blame them. I think it's funny they make most of the professors shiver...
ON ANOTHER NOTE: I never said "hunt down", or "Go in after a shooting takes place". I was not interested in a discussion about "taking the fight to the active shooter in another area away from the CCW." I was asking about a situation where the CCW is in the environment of the shooting and fighting back is the best option.
Again, I get it at cost.
So for the same money spent I can wear 511 kakhi's or "made in Haiti" kakhi pants from Wal Mart. The 511s are made better.
But I'm not really head to toe, I wear regular shoes and generic (Hanes) polos.
It's not like I'm walking around in tiger stripe bdus.
I got you beat! I get 5.11 and BH clothes for FREE! I only wear them in my gun shop. The instance I go out in public, I switch clothes.
C4
Still looking for more than one LE to comment....
Still looking for more than one LE to comment....
There were at least three LE who commented.
sandman99and9
09-18-13, 09:44
Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?
Was I close? :D
Are you with the NSA ?? Do you have my computer bugged ? :)
I am wearing khaki pants and a polo shirt but a blue T-shirt, you need to upgrade your intel gathering :)
I have been mistaked for a police officer many times but I think that is more on how I carry myself in public and the high and tight haircut that I have had for the last 10-15 years. I also get mistaken for a manager at retail stores all the time.
Whenever I go to school functions, ballgames or other events I can pick out the LEO's and CC people pretty easy.
Of course I spot the common shoplifters all the time in stores and usually let the management know about them. It was like a game for me at my old retail management job that I would tell my assistant that I can spot them a mile away. I used to win lunch from him all the time :)
S.M.
There were at least three LE who commented.
I'm sorry I missed that.
It isn't.
Gun people that can't blend in and wear standard plain clothing are douches.
Ok then.
Quick question, are the other people wearing khaki cargo pants and polos who aren't gun people also douches? Cause we have an awful lot of those down here too, the main difference seems to be flip flops vs. regular shoes.
I got you beat! I get 5.11 and BH clothes for FREE! I only wear them in my gun shop. The instance I go out in public, I switch clothes.
C4
But see, you are one of those rich white people. I don't have "other clothes" and I don't get me 511 stuff free.
So I have to buy clothes on a budget.
My choices are quality made stuff with pockets for all my crap or wal mart crap that is made in Haiti that will fall apart in 6 months.
But see, you are one of those rich white people. I don't have "other clothes" and I don't get me 511 stuff free.
So I have to buy clothes on a budget.
My choices are quality made stuff with pockets for all my crap or wal mart crap that is made in Haiti that will fall apart in 6 months.
Dude you have to check out Duluth clothing. Not cheap, but high quality.
I don't know how Grant managed to be so freaken cool... :)
Was it luck Grant or what?
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